# Undershot/Overshot? Question for Jesshan :)



## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Hi Denise,
Can you explain a little about this please. I know the difference between them, but would like to know (and it might be useful for others here) about "bites."

In a pet puppy does it have implications? What age do they develop their adult bite? And anything else of importance 

Both mine are a tad undershot. Jago very much so and hubby used to call him Mr Undershot at about 5/6 months. Sounds awful, but believe me he worships him 

Funnily enough as he got older, it seemed much less obvious. Though if you open his mouth you can tell.

To me it doesn't matter. It never will, So just curious really 

Thank you.
Barbara x


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Basically the undershot bite means that the bottom jaw sticks out further than the top jaw and overshot means the top jaw sticks out further than the bottom one.

An undershot bite can make the dog look like it is smiling but an overshot bit can make them look a bit parroty (if that makes sense)

Initially I have had them in the past where they were undershot but never overshot. I have had an undershot bite which has corrected itself but have friends who have recently had dogs bite correct after being overshot.



As a judge I am not a mouth fanatic and would prefer a slightly bad mouth to unsound construction. I also would favour a slightly undershot bite to slightly overshot bite.

Anything which is severely overshot I personally think it must will find it hard to eat but have never found an undershot dog have a problem eating. I suppose a dog will always be able to adapt to whatever mouth fault they have.

Hope this helps.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Thank you 

Presumably a good breeder would not use a dog at stud that was markedly either?

Barbara x


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

You would have to weigh up ALL the factors of the dog - breeding from a bitch with a bad bite does not necessarily mean they will produce puppies with bad bites BUT you would have to mate it will a dog which had a strong bite. You always have to be aware of the faults within the lines - this was my point previously regarding breeding from dogs which the pedigree aren't known. Research is always a key point.

If you had a bitch with a poor head you would still try and improve that weakness by mating it to a dog who produces puppies with a decent head. 

Forgot to mention that a overshot bite may result in a dogs tongue poking out same as an undershot bite may show a shiney lip or smile. These are tell tale signs but the faults are not always visable.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

jesshan said:


> Forgot to mention that a overshot bite may result in a dogs tongue poking out same as an undershot bite may show a shiney lip or smile. These are tell tale signs but the faults are not always visable.


Funnily enough looking at a"stud dog" with this prompted this question 

Gosh, pleased I don't plan on breeding 

Barbara x


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Strangely enough people don't think twice about breeding from a less than perfect girl but wouldn't dream of breeding from a less than perfect boy. I personally can't see the difference. If a specific dog had all lovely qualities but had a less than perfect head...why not breed from him....just isn't the done thing I suppose.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

jesshan said:


> Strangely enough people don't think twice about breeding from a less than perfect girl but wouldn't dream of breeding from a less than perfect boy. I personally can't see the difference. If a specific dog had all lovely qualities but had a less than perfect head...why not breed from him....just isn't the done thing I suppose.



As (I hope) you know I'm not into breeding for money...Not going to breed at all 

I do look... and I have seen some seriously bad breeding....I am ashamed to say in our area. Even a vet has said ~ "Barbara, it is people like you who should be breeding"  

But ain't going to happen.

Barbara x


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Oh I know Barbara, there is some SERIOUSLY bad breeding in our area but they appear to be knowledgable and being conned - all this lark on about the rare colours - they are bloody merle and they cannot be KC registered while other market Tea Cup or Pocket Size puppies.....it really annoys me.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

jesshan said:


> If a specific dog had all lovely qualities but had a less than perfect head...why not breed from him....just isn't the done thing I suppose.


So does a does lovely qualities take preference to a less than perfect head...?

I know I can ask you and you won't get "precious" 

(Neither would one or two other nice breeders here)

Barbara x


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

I would take a plain head and a good body and movement over an excellent head and bad front or rear. If the basis of the dog ie its confirmation and movement is there then you can easily improve heads with research into what they produce.

Obviously chihuahuas are supposed to be a "head" breed - the "apple domed head - or rounded head" as the KC standard now asks for - therefore technically the deer heads are just not quite up to the breed standard (PLEASE DON'T SHOOT ME FOR THIS COMMENT ALL THOSE WHO HAVE DEER HEADS) All I am not trying to put them down just trying to explain the reasoning behind types.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

That is really intersting, because I think most pet owners favour a head!

Barbara x


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

Interesting, I had a similar conversation with Jenn, my breeder yesterday. She just finished another one of her bitches, who is actually pregnant now. This particular bitch's bite went off. It was perfect at 8 weeks and a few months after that and now it's a decent overbite. She has a perfect head, a perfect stop, perfect cobby body and angulation. She's amazing. It did take her a bit longer to finish because her bite went off. Every judge has what's important to them and she said it's amazing how different it is. Some don't think twice about the bite, others do. In her experience with breeding, she finds most judges to be more concerned with the head (being that it is a head breed). She showed me some differences even in her winners with their stops and muzzles, etc. etc. It's so interesting. I have so much respect for Denise and Tracy and others who show. I couldn't do it but I love learning about it. Lily's brother has a great stop and snout. Lily's is a bit long. He also has a nice cobby body where Lily is too skinny. Too soon to tell but she can get a good indication early on who she wants to keep and show. It can change with time though. Great thread. I just love learning all this.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Fascinating isn't it. Even as pet owners!

Barbara x


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

goes to show that you need to research your lines to find out what problems are. I wouldn't put a bitch with a slightly bad mouth to a dog who had mouth problems in its direct decendants. Or a low tail set to one which had or produced low tailsets.


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## freedomchis (Jul 28, 2007)

Your advice Denise is brilliant!! you do know what your talking about


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

I know very little about showing, but I do love to read the information. It's interesting to me how the show World works. I have two friends that show and breed, so I pick up some stuff here and there through them.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

freedomchis said:


> Your advice Denise is brilliant!! you do know what your talking about


Ha ha.. I sound good don't I Saiorse  saying that though it doesn't ALWAYS work but it can help to correct faults.


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## freedomchis (Jul 28, 2007)

your advice so far Denise has helped me so i am pleased!!!


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## *gillian* (Jan 31, 2009)

you can always rely on you denise for good sound honest advice as i already know if i have a problem concerning any of mine you always have the answers thanks again gillian


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## freedomchis (Jul 28, 2007)

Yes totally agree Denise is honest (shocked me though) but honest and to the point which is good!!


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

ha ha...yes, if you want honest critisicm then ask me! LOL Sorry if I am a bit harsh sometimes though but that is the way I like it said to me and basically when I am harsh it is mainly nit picking though.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

Oh Denise, you sound just like Jenn. The only flaw Weeble has is her bite so she breeds her with two of her boys who have perfect bites and their parents have perfect bites. You kinda have to compensate for flaws with the other one, huh? You guys are amazing and I've spent so much time with her lately so I just pick her brain while I'm there. There sure is a lot that goes with it if you're breeding to better the standard. She's been doing it for 19 years and it's old hat to her now, ya know?


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Sometimes I do say honest things and people don't want to hear them though LOL They can easily take offence.


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## gerry1 (Sep 3, 2009)

*Hi*

Hi there everyone, as a new owner i havent a clue about chi,s but was wondering if my new little chi puppy girl was under or overshot. We want to be aware of everything that might affect her health as we have her such a short while but everyone adores her. Icant upload a pic for some reason but i have 2 in my album if anyone would like to give me there opinion, thanks. Gerry


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