# Is my Chili and apple head?



## chili (May 27, 2011)

What do you think?


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

Chili would be classified as a "deer" head. His forehead has a slight slope and his muzzle is longer than the "apple" standard. An apple will have a very round head with almost a bulgey forehead, a 90 degree angle stop where the nose meets the forehead, and a fairly short muzzle. The biggest difference is really the 90 degree stop. 90 degrees means the shape of the forehead and the nose connecting makes a sharp L. Anything slightly less than that is going to look more like this \_ and that is not considered 90 degrees. Hopefully that makes sense.


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## chili (May 27, 2011)

Yes it does. I wasnt sure because his doesnt slope very much and everyone on we meet from the groomer to the cashier at lowes says "OH I just love the apple heads" :daisy:


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

IMO I feel there is only ever a slight difference in well bred deer headed and well bred apple headed chihuahuas. My Isis is deer headed and pretty just like your gorgeous little guy =) I used to favour ''apple heads'' but having Isis made me realise how lovely deer heads are when they are well bred 

On a side note Caitlin I can't get over Gemma's lil' smile!! Every time I see your siggy I smile back ha ha!


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

I believe a lot of people just aren't sure of the true definition of an apple type. Most just classify almost all Chihuahuas that way if they have a round head, but many Chihuahuas do have that shape head no matter what. Gemma's head would be considered "apple" typey by breed standards:










Here is an example from Google of a Chi with that round, dome-shaped head, but is still more of a deer shape because the stop and muzzle are not breed standards:


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

All this being said, keep in mind there is actually no such thing as an applehead or deerhead Chihuahua. They are both still the same breed. They are just terms used to describe the different head shapes that can appear in the breed. The "apple" type is just the breed standard.


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## AussieLass (Mar 1, 2012)

Standards?


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## chili (May 27, 2011)

Chilis is more like the white and tan dog. I can see the dif. now.


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

AussieLass said:


> Standards?


I'm talking about the standards listed for the typey look that is commonly described as apple.

From the AKC website:

"A well rounded "apple dome" skull, with or without molera. Expression – Saucy. Eyes - Full, round, but not protruding, balanced, set well apart-luminous dark or luminous ruby. Light eyes in blond or white-colored dogs permissible. Ears – Large, erect type ears, held more upright when alert, but flaring to the sides at a 45 degree angle when in repose, giving breadth between the ears. Stop – Well defined. When viewed in profile, it forms a near 90 degree angle where muzzle joins skull. Muzzle – Moderately short, slightly pointed."


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

CheyMUA said:


> IMO I feel there is only ever a slight difference in well bred deer headed and well bred apple headed chihuahuas. My Isis is deer headed and pretty just like your gorgeous little guy =) I used to favour ''apple heads'' but having Isis made me realise how lovely deer heads are when they are well bred
> 
> On a side note Caitlin I can't get over Gemma's lil' smile!! Every time I see your siggy I smile back ha ha!


There is no well bred deer headed chihuahua. Why? Because the deer head doesn't meet the chi standard. (The standard is the written 'blueprint' of what the ideal chi should look like and what ethical breeders strive to produce.)

This is NOT to say that deer headed chi's are inferior to apple headed chi's. It is just that they do not meet the standard. They are likely produced by breeders who don't adhere to breed club standards and are breeding pets. A quality show breeder would not want to produce deer heads as they would not win in the show ring. Would they make great pets? Of course.


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

Exactly what Tracy said. The standards I'm trying to describe are the blueprints for the ideal look in the breed, basically what's acceptable in a show ring. But just because a Chi doesn't meet those standards does not make him or her any less wonderful as a pet. "Deer" or "apple," a Chi is a Chi and is still going to have that awesome Chi personality.


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

CheyMUA said:


> On a side note Caitlin I can't get over Gemma's lil' smile!! Every time I see your siggy I smile back ha ha!


Oops, I missed this! Thank you! She always looks like she's smiling in pictures, lol.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

Uwww this makes me sad as I really held a little hope I *might* be able to show Isis someday but I think she is definitely deer headed so I guess that rules her out  

Its a shame....she's sooo pretty - to me at least ha ha!!



> Oops, I missed this! Thank you! She always looks like she's smiling in pictures, lol.


She's just gorgeous - she should definitely be a little chi model


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

Brodysmom said:


> There is no well bred deer headed chihuahua. Why? Because the deer head doesn't meet the chi standard. (The standard is the written 'blueprint' of what the ideal chi should look like and what ethical breeders strive to produce.)
> 
> This is NOT to say that deer headed chi's are inferior to apple headed chi's. It is just that they do not meet the standard. They are likely produced by breeders who don't adhere to breed club standards and are breeding pets. A quality show breeder would not want to produce deer heads as they would not win in the show ring. Would they make great pets? Of course.



Do you not think? Isis is KC registered and has a 5 gen pedigree all KC registered. But when I look at her I feel like she looks more deer than apple :?


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## chili (May 27, 2011)

I had intended to buy a deerhead. I just like the way they look and wanting a pet not a breeder or a show dog. He was the best $125 I ever spent. I guess because his head is so round is why everyone was telling me that he is an apple head. Now I have facts to back me up when I say "NO actully he isnt". Or I may just smile and say Thanks like I normally do


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

CheyMUA said:


> Uwww this makes me sad as I really held a little hope I *might* be able to show Isis someday but I think she is definitely deer headed so I guess that rules her out
> 
> Its a shame....she's sooo pretty - to me at least ha ha!!
> 
> ...


You can still show her for fun at local shows and stuff. Or do agility with her! I think that's way cooler than showing.

Gemma can't even be showed because she doesn't have pedigree papers, but I knew this buying her and I didn't care. I wasn't after a show dog. I just had the image of the ideal little girl that I wanted in my head and she fit it perfectly.


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

chili said:


> I had intended to buy a deerhead. I just like the way they look and wanting a pet not a breeder or a show dog. He was the best $125 I ever spent. I guess because his head is so round is why everyone was telling me that he is an apple head. Now I have facts to back me up when I say "NO actully he isnt". Or I may just smile and say Thanks like I normally do


I felt the same way about Gemma when I bought her. She didn't have papers, but I had no intention to breed her or show her, so I was fine with it. She cost me $1500 (dogs in Sweden are VERY expensive, pedigree registered or not), but I wouldn't give her up for a billion dollars! She's the best thing in my life.


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

He is perfect. Perfect to you and perfect for you! I would just smile and say thanks and agree with them when they tell you he is a cutie pie!

All 3 of mine are AKC registered. One has a sire who is a Grand Champion. Who has other Champions in his line. You know how many of my girls would be suitable for a show ring or for breeding? ZERO.

Just like you, though, it will not change how perfect we think they are. Not by the standard, but perfect to us.

Show dogs are born, not made. To have a show dog, it requires (VERY typically) buying a puppy from a show dog breeder. Many breeders will keep puppies that are show potential so they are not as available as registered and non-registered pets. That is good news for preserving the breed standard but also good for those of us who want well-bred pets.

Even mine who came from a show breeder was sold as a pet (at a pet price) because while she is lovely, she is not show worthy. Even if she missed it by one little thing, she missed it. 

We all should think that our dogs are amazing and wonderful and smart. We just do not all have show dogs who are judged by much more technical criteria.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

jesuschick said:


> He is perfect. Perfect to you and perfect for you! I would just smile and say thanks and agree with them when they tell you he is a cutie pie!
> 
> All 3 of mine are AKC registered. One has a sire who is a Grand Champion. Who has other Champions in his line. You know how many of my girls would be suitable for a show ring or for breeding? ZERO.
> 
> ...


Very well put  I guess we all see our babies as little stars  I do think its a shame deer heads aren't considered as breed standard but thats life eh? will still be going to / entering isis (and possibly zeus if he will sit still) into pet shows even if just once to get the experience of it - ie just for fun lol 

I think she'd be great at agility as she learns and moves fast when doing the tricks I taught her - may have to go and get a little kit at some point soon =)


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

I agree with Tracy, Caitlin and Karen. Deer heads may not be show quality but they make excellent pets. My Toby is what I'd consider an apple head, and he is STILL too far from standard to be shown. There are so many qualifications that a dog has to meet to be shown that very few dogs make the cut. But you can do other things, like Caitlin said. Agility or companion dog showing. Or get your dogs Canine Good Citizen certification and become a therapy dog. Lots of options. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## OzChi (Oct 26, 2011)

> All 3 of mine are AKC registered. One has a sire who is a Grand Champion. Who has other Champions in his line. You know how many of my girls would be suitable for a show ring or for breeding? ZERO.


Even for the best show breeders only a couple of puppies they produce per year will be show quality if they are lucky. My Winnie's sire, the sire's litter mate and their sire are all grand champions, his half sibling on his mum's side is a champion and his two litter mates are being kept by the breeder to show but Winnie and the other puppy in the litter of 4 were pet homed because they are just not quite right - but extremely adorable pets none the less!

And my Chloe, OMG! She is ANKC registered (the Aussie version of AKC) and has some good blood lines further back in her pedigree but she has the most honking big schnoz and a real deer head and huge protruding eyes. She's as far from standard as a pedigree registered dog can probably get and looks so dissimilar to Ax her half brother who has a pretty nice head (a little long in the muzzle and ears on the smaller side but an all around pleasing look). I love her though and her big eyes actually make her really cute.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

Its funny my BF and I were having this conversation about show standard and he was like ''No way , Her muzzle is too big'' and that was just from looking at show winners pics. He has no knowledge about breed standard anything......now I'm going to have to tell him he's right....thats the most painful thing about this whole thing ha ha!!!


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## heathuhhhhwebbbb (Aug 3, 2012)

Interesting. Would Zues and Luna be considered deer head or apple head? I always thought they were apple just because I've seen deer head and they didn't seem to look the same. But I'm probably wrong!


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

heathuhhhhwebbbb said:


> Interesting. Would Zues and Luna be considered deer head or apple head? I always thought they were apple just because I've seen deer head and they didn't seem to look the same. But I'm probably wrong!


In that photo, I think he's a deer head?? Now I'm wondering the same about Leo!! Lol


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

Do you guys think Leo is an applehead? His dad is for sure and he's a show dog, but I'm not sure if his mom was apple or dear. What do u think?


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## heathuhhhhwebbbb (Aug 3, 2012)

Zorana1125 said:


> In that photo, I think he's a deer head?? Now I'm wondering the same about Leo!! Lol


Leo looks apple (at least to me), but then again I thought Zeus was apple too! LOL


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## heathuhhhhwebbbb (Aug 3, 2012)

Zorana1125 said:


> Do you guys think Leo is an applehead? His dad is for sure and he's a show dog, but I'm not sure if his mom was apple or dear. What do u think?


Everytime I see Leo I smile! He is such a handsome boy!


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

heathuhhhhwebbbb said:


> Everytime I see Leo I smile! He is such a handsome boy!


Oh thank you!! Ur so sweet! Ur chi's melt my heart too!


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I don't think there is a clear line where Chi's fall into deer or apple shaped heads. A correct head (according to the breed standard) is apple shaped, but there are so many other subtle details that make a head good.
The deer head is about as far from the standard as it is possible to be.
The photo of Zeus shows that he has the desired 90 degree stop. He doesn't have what would be considered a quality head from a showing perspective though. Leo's is closer to standard.


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## heathuhhhhwebbbb (Aug 3, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> I don't think there is a clear line where Chi's fall into deer or apple shaped heads. A correct head (according to the breed standard) is apple shaped, but there are so many other subtle details that make a head good.
> The deer head is about as far from the standard as it is possible to be.
> The photo of Zeus shows that he has the desired 90 degree stop. He doesn't have what would be considered a quality head from a showing perspective though. Leo's is closer to standard.


Poor Zeus!


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

Thank you! I always thought he was but then started second guessing myself!


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> I don't think there is a clear line where Chi's fall into deer or apple shaped heads. A correct head (according to the breed standard) is apple shaped, but there are so many other subtle details that make a head good.
> The deer head is about as far from the standard as it is possible to be.
> The photo of Zeus shows that he has the desired 90 degree stop. He doesn't have what would be considered a quality head from a showing perspective though. Leo's is closer to standard.


Does the showing standard and breed standard differ?


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Zeus doesn't care what shape his head is lol! He is a lovely pet, and very cute. Just not destined to be a show dog. 
I stacked my Harley and had a serious look at him, and the only thing that is correct on him is his tail lol. Luckily he is excellent at being a spoilt pet


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

CheyMUA said:


> Does the showing standard and breed standard differ?


It is the same thing. The whole point of showing is to compare each dog to the breed standard.


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## heathuhhhhwebbbb (Aug 3, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> Zeus doesn't care what shape his head is lol! He is a lovely pet, and very cute. Just not destined to be a show dog.
> I stacked my Harley and had a serious look at him, and the only thing that is correct on him is his tail lol. Luckily he is excellent at being a spoilt pet


Hahaha! I know he doesn't! And neither do I!  I think he is handsome.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> It is the same thing. The whole point of showing is to compare each dog to the breed standard.


I probably should have elaborated more on what I was asking cs looking back that looks like such an idiotic question - what I mean is does the show quality standard tend to have certain parameters within the breed standard restrictions - not all dogs that match up to breed standard are show quality are they?


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Ah I see. Technically any dog that is registered can be shown. But you are totally correct, there is a huge difference between 'showable' and able to win. 
Even the best dog will have faults, some faults are considered worse than others. The best dogs have 'balance' but all have some good points and some bad points. 
To do well the dog also has to love showing, and have that undefinable 'look at me' quality, that really makes them sparkle. Many good dogs get left at home because they won't show.


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## chili (May 27, 2011)

speaking of standards what about body type? Ive seen some chis that are almost square and some that have longer body.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> Ah I see. Technically any dog that is registered can be shown. But you are totally correct, there is a huge difference between 'showable' and able to win.
> Even the best dog will have faults, some faults are considered worse than others. The best dogs have 'balance' but all have some good points and some bad points.
> To do well the dog also has to love showing, and have that undefinable 'look at me' quality, that really makes them sparkle. Many good dogs get left at home because they won't show.


Okaaaay I get it nowww  Thanks for educating me  Zeus has a 'look at me quality' Isis too buuuutt...will have to stick to shows self-staged in my living room as one is a mongrel and the other is a deerhead ...bah humbug


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## heathuhhhhwebbbb (Aug 3, 2012)

chili said:


> speaking of standards what about body type? Ive seen some chis that are almost square and some that have longer body.


I'd like to see some different body types too. Zeus is really awkward shaped. He's got long legs but his body length is short.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

You could always show them in a companion dog show. These are just for fun, dogs don't need to be registered, pedigreed or even pure bred.
Chilli, Chihuahuas are supposed to be slightly longer than they are tall, the UK standard says 'Body, from point of shoulder to rear point of croup, slightly longer than height at withers. Well sprung ribs, deep brisket.' They are also supposed to be 'compact'. 
The deer headed type do seem to be much longer in the leg. In the UK we tend to see them with much shorter legs. Proper deer types are not common over here.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> You could always show them in a companion dog show. These are just for fun, dogs don't need to be registered, pedigreed or even pure bred.
> Chilli, Chihuahuas are supposed to be slightly longer than they are tall, the UK standard says 'Body, from point of shoulder to rear point of croup, slightly longer than height at withers. Well sprung ribs, deep brisket.' They are also supposed to be 'compact'.
> The deer headed type do seem to be much longer in the leg. In the UK we tend to see them with much shorter legs. Proper deer types are not common over here.



Your right I want to get her some ribbons I'm so proud of them both it would be a great thing socially for us too - my friends don't understand the love I have for my pups and it would be nice to get involved with the dog loving scene in a bigger way  

Isis really does have brilliant form - the only things I can see seperate her from the show standard is her muzzle may be too long and her ears slightly too large - I'll try to get her into a show pose (mission impossible if Zeus is running around) so you guys can critique her x


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## Piku (Jul 28, 2012)

heathuhhhhwebbbb said:


> I'd like to see some different body types too. Zeus is really awkward shaped. He's got long legs but his body length is short.


 Off-topic but that is such an adorable picture!


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I'm entering Bambi in a companion show this Sunday, they have classes for purebreeds, they just don't need to be registered. She will go in Any Variety non-sporting, and I am really looking forward to finding out what the judge thinks of her. She will also go in prettiest bitch and 'dog the judge would most like to take home' for fun. Harley will probably go in 'dog with the waggiest tail'. It should be a fun day for all of us.


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## heathuhhhhwebbbb (Aug 3, 2012)

Piku said:


> Off-topic but that is such an adorable picture!


Thank you! They love each other I believe.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> I'm entering Bambi in a companion show this Sunday, they have classes for purebreeds, they just don't need to be registered. She will go in Any Variety non-sporting, and I am really looking forward to finding out what the judge thinks of her. She will also go in prettiest bitch and 'dog the judge would most like to take home' for fun. Harley will probably go in 'dog with the waggiest tail'. It should be a fun day for all of us.


Ooooh sounds like sooo much fun!! I'm slowly becoming a stage mama ha ha!! Looking for all the events and companion show info I can!! Zeus and Isis will soon be little chi celebrities ha ha!!


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

heathuhhhhwebbbb said:


> I'd like to see some different body types too. Zeus is really awkward shaped. He's got long legs but his body length is short.


AWWWWWWWWW!!!! I LOVE them!! When my Zeus and Isis are in this position they're usually rough and tumbling all over the place!! ha ha!!


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

That picture definitely deserves to be in a frame.


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## heathuhhhhwebbbb (Aug 3, 2012)

CheyMUA said:


> AWWWWWWWWW!!!! I LOVE them!! When my Zeus and Isis are in this position they're usually rough and tumbling all over the place!! ha ha!!


I know! You gotta be quick!



Wicked Pixie said:


> That picture definitely deserves to be in a frame.


I think I might do that.  One of the lawyers I work with has a picture of his (yes HIS) chi on his desk! His Chi's name is Toby and he looks so much like Zeus, except twice the size.


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