# newborn death



## Pebbles (Sep 23, 2008)

my chihuahua gave birth to 3 puppies while I was not home. When I arrived, 2 were dead and only 1 alive. One of the dead ones still had the umbilical cord attached and the other one had it's mouth a little open. Any suggestions as to what could have happened? Does this happen often that 2 out of 3 die? The one that survived was the smallest one. Please let me know. Thanks


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## rubia (Jul 3, 2008)

So very sorry to hear this. I have heard from the breeders that it does pay to be very prepared for the welping and even then things can be precarious with these little pups. Those more experienced will have better advice. I offer my sympathies.:sad7:


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## Ciarra (May 6, 2008)

There are many factors when it comes to dead puppies. I hope that you should have known that she was due soon. I always have to help my females, because of the factors of Breeched Puppies that come out backwards and not only that but another factor is one could have been a still born. I always prepare a week before my females due date and I dont go far within that week. After that puppy is weaned please get you female spayed, and not only that I would take her to the vet to see if she retained and placentas. Since you werent there to witness if all came out. Because if she has even one placentas inside she can get alot of problems.


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## Kioana (Mar 1, 2005)

well said


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## carachi (Mar 20, 2005)

Leave the breeding to the responsible breeders and get your girl spayed.


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## KayC (May 3, 2005)

This is so sad.


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## Tora-Oni (Sep 13, 2008)

Linipi Chihuahuas said:


> Leave the breeding to the responsible breeders and get your girl spayed.


I completly agree to that, I know some people want their dogs to have a litter before they get spayed but I kinda wonder why? I mean I don't really see the point I know they think their dog is wonderful and people like it but I would just refer to the breeder I got the dog from or in my case the rescue/shelter. I was actually talked to a lady that got her boston from a somebody who just wanted to get a litter before they spayed their pet. I really don't know what happened in your case? I'm still very sorry to hear that only one lived. All my pets have been spayed and neutered, so they don't get to replenuish the population. I'm kinda lucky to have my parents understand the importance of spay an neuter.


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## carachi (Mar 20, 2005)

There is a myth that it is good for a dog to have one litter before being spayed. This is crazy and ridiculous. I am so tired of people littering this already over populated dog world with unwanted or unplanned puppies. We. Do. Not. Need. Any. More.

The biggest mistake people make is thinking that their dog is more special then any one else's.


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## tonysmom (Jul 19, 2005)

I refer to this site often for its information and to see all the pictures of your babies. But sometimes you all are the most cruel and unfeeling people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. This poor person is looking for sympathy and understanding with the loss of her puppies not to be reprimanded. You don't have all the facts to make these blanket judgements. So to "Pebbles" I say - I'm so sorry for your loss, it must be heart wrenching. My prayer is that the one pup does well.


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## Ciarra (May 6, 2008)

Well I think if she is asking us, then she doesnt know breeding. Breeding isnt put 2 dogs together and collecting the money afterwards. Its Pain, Sweat and Tears. Were not being cruel, were answering her question. But a reputable breeder would not be on a chi forum asking how her new born puppies died. Even accidental breeding, she should had her female spayed before it came to this. I doubt she had a mentor or mentors, I doubt she knew the hard factors and what to do with Whelping and Weaning. She could have lost her female chihuahua, since some chihuahuas need a c-section and there are so many problems that can occur during whelping, such as Breeched, stuck in the birth cannal, still born, puppy to large, which results in a c-section. It just bugs me to see a person with no backround in breeding, breeding their puppies because of the old wives tale or they think they can make a quick buck. Us breeders barely make it out even. And We are fine, with that because we breed to better the breed, not to make a quick buck. Please Spay and Neuter your pets, even if you cant afford it there are plenty of agenices, that will help with the cost.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

This forum is here because we share a love for a fabulous breed and we want to share with others pictures and stories. It is also here for people to learn and for the more experienced Chi owners to help educate the less experienced. 

However with that being said there is a way to be nice about it and these members that need help will more than likely come back if we are nice;-) If we are not nice about things then they will continue on and not take us seriously and choose not to learn. I understand that some of you guys are very passionate about your opinions and about the overpopulation of puppies, I too share this passion with you Please take others feelings into consideration and be careful how you word things;-)

I am very sorry for the loss of those babies:-(


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

Munchkin CSC said:


> Us breeders barely make it out even. And We are fine, with that because we breed to better the breed, not to make a quick buck.


That is beyond true. When you do all the necessary health screening, pre-natal care and c-section (if necessary) - post natal care - proper puppy care .... etc etc etc - you usually lose money or if you are lucky break even.

Rosie's litter back in June we lost over $2,000.00 but we ate it up because the puppies were absolutely stunning. The most amazing little gems.

One thing I have to say though is I have seen many new people come here (brand new posters) and ask a question/post a comment and they have been immediately jumped on by certain people. 

If we want to educate people on what is responsible dog ownership, breeding etc - it often is better to hold back the knee-jerk outrage you feel over what has happened - to reach out to the person on the other end.

We know people breed irresponsibly every day. We won't change that by constantly saying don't breed and certainly not by jumping down someone's throat who asks for our advice. 

When we immediately go for that knee-jerk response/attack mode that I see so often here - we lose people who actually were trying to learn something.

If I were in Pebbles' shoes I would have high tailed it out of here thinking we are all a bunch of mean, stuck up snobs who didn't care about what just happened. 

People make bad choices. Everyone here has and everyone here will again. It is impossible to go through life not making bad choices. That is what makes us human. However, the best part about being human is that we can learn from our mistakes and make better choices in the future.

Pebbles made a mistake and wanted to know what likely happened to her puppies. She didn't want to be accosted and blamed. She is likely devastated by what she came home to.

On a forum it is easy to forget that there are humans on the other side of the words we read. If we want to have a strong healthy forum community with new members - it is best we don't run them off with their first post/question.


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

Pebbles said:


> my chihuahua gave birth to 3 puppies while I was not home. When I arrived, 2 were dead and only 1 alive. One of the dead ones still had the umbilical cord attached and the other one had it's mouth a little open. Any suggestions as to what could have happened? Does this happen often that 2 out of 3 die? The one that survived was the smallest one. Please let me know. Thanks


I am posting this here in the slight chance that you will read it, but if you don't I have sent it to you in PM too.

Firstly, I am sorry that you had to come home to that. It is never easy losing a puppy and certainly not two! 

Without being there to witness the birth it is hard to say exactly what occurred with the puppies but based on what you are describing here are my initial thoughts:

From what you described, it sounds like to me that your female delivered three puppies who were probably all alive at the time of birth.

My guess would be that your female didn't open their sacs quickly enough (in the case of the pup with the open mouth) or she didn't tear the umbilical cord on the other (can cause the pup to die as once the placenta/birth sac dies - so does the attached pup).

First time puppy Mom's are notorious for being unsure of what to do when the puppies arrive. They usually need some help from us humans.

If your female didn't open the sacs in a timely manner, wasn't cleaning, warming or caring for the pup(s) already born like she should have been - that could have caused the death of the pups.

When puppies are born they usually have fluid in their mouths and lungs. That needs to be dealt with or they basically drown. We humans are best at dealing with the fluid quickly and efficiently - however, many experienced females get right to it by licking each pup vigorously after it is born.

New puppy Moms make mistakes. They might only tear open a part of the sac then leave it - deliver another puppy - go back to the first puppy sac when it is too late etc. but waste time finishing it off while the second pup dies .... 

That being said, there are a couple of other probable causes as well:

It is possible that a pup was dead due to taking too long to travel through the birth canal. If the female has been pushing for an hour - it is time to go to the vet - but if you weren't there to see it - it is hard to know if that was the case.

It is also possible that something was wrong with both puppies that were found dead. They could have had internal issues etc.

In our experience we have never lost more than 1 pup per birthing IF any were lost at all. So I would have to say that it is not normal to lose 2 out of 3. 

Sadly, I do believe that you probably would have 3 puppies right now if you had been home to help your female but we can't change that - we can only look forward.

For your current puppy:

Make sure she is clean, warm and eating well.

For your female:
Watch for any funny colored discharges that might indicate a retained placenta. 
Watch for signs of infection, fever, mastitis (infection in the teats) and make sure she is eating well.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

There could have been numerous reasons why the puppies were born dead. 

Where they born early? If so their internal organs may not have been formed properly.

Where they formed properly? Sometimes because of a deformety they are already dead inside of the mother.

Is the mother a maiden bitch? Doing it alone means she didn't know what she was doing and could have bitten off the cord too near puppy and they could have bled to death. They could have been too cold and died of hypothermia

As you don't know how long she was between pushing and delivering, they could have been stuck inside her for too long and died during the birth.

How long were you out when she gave birth? They could have been born alive and saved if you could have revived them.

This one is a really silly question but did you know that she was pregnant? If she hasn't had the correct nutrituon it can have an affect on the puppies.


I am sorry to hear this sad news but unfortunately it is part of dog breeding, you have to take the rough with the smooth - it is something that never gets any easier but you learn how to handle it.

You can lose a pup at litter, you can lose the whole litter, you may not lose any - you never know what will happen.

Like has been previously said, keep a close eye on mum as you don't know how many placenta's have come away, how many she has eaten and if any have been retained.


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## Chico's Mum (Sep 9, 2008)

tonysmom, OrchardLane, and Yoshismom. I'm glad for what you said and I couldn't have said it better my self. 

I mean this poor person just posted 1 post And probably wont post anymore after the replay's in page 1. I just hope she, the mother chihuahua, and the new baby are ok. And that she gives us an update.


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

poor puppies  i wish you better luck next time, if you chose to breed. as long as youre not doing it for cash and youre just doing it bc you truly love your dog and know you can give all the puppies a good home ( if they dont get adopted), then that is what counts.


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

Firstly I am sorry for your loss.
Many first time mums really do not have a clue about what to do when whelping a first litter and if you aren't there to watch/assist a dissaster such as has happened to you can and does occur.
A week before the litter is due mum must be watched very closely for signs of labour.
Your poor little puppies most likely died because mum didn't know what to do.
I know of breeders who just leave mum to 'GET ON WITH IT' this is not a good idea, as you are now testament to.
Ourselves we will stay up night after night if a little unsure even resorting to sleeping in shifts if necessary. We take the welfare of our dogs very seriously.

I remain a member of this forum because I have always found it very fair and usually very KIND. 
I would hate to see it turn nasty and holier than thou full of breeders who think that they and only they should be breeding dogs because they are so good so everyone else is beneath them. There are already too many forums out there with this attitude.

Please remember kindness costs nothing.


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## carachi (Mar 20, 2005)

I agree with all of you that I am definitely too rude at times but this is a subject I just have no patience for. These puppies DO NOT ask to be brought into this world. They don't deserve to be left to die by some irresponsible person who just *lol oops* discovered her dog pregnant. Not only do I feel awful for those poor puppies, but I also feel sick to my stomach for those dogs who are going to be put to sleep because some bad pet owner bred ANOTHER unwanted litter into this crazy world. 

Plus the Chihuahua is a breed I want to see preserved. I want them to always look like this: 










forever, and not like the Fox Terrier mixed ones people so often breed and call a Chihuahua. I love this breed and know you all do too, so I don't know why the rest of you don't want to see this breed die out.


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

Linipi Chihuahuas said:


> Leave the breeding to the responsible breeders and get your girl spayed.


I agree ... I can't imagine leaving a soon due, pregnant girl home alone  I would say what happened is she simply needed help, and no one was there. Take her to the vet right away to get checked out, then get her spayed.

Sorry for your loss, but this is a very upsetting and completely avoidable situation. I feel bad for you, and the puppies  I hope you are okay.


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

Linipi Chihuahuas said:


> I agree with all of you that I am definitely too rude at times but this is a subject I just have no patience for. These puppies DO NOT ask to be brought into this world. They don't deserve to be left to die by some irresponsible person who just *lol oops* discovered her dog pregnant. Not only do I feel awful for those poor puppies, but I also feel sick to my stomach for those dogs who are going to be put to sleep because some bad pet owner bred ANOTHER unwanted litter into this crazy world.
> 
> Plus the Chihuahua is a breed I want to see preserved. I want them to always look like this:
> 
> ...


Being passionate and being cruel are two different things. 

Passion is best used when extending kindness and understanding first so that you can have the chance to educate someone. Passion is useless when the end result is simply running people off. You can be passionate all you want about anything but it is useless/wasted if you never can do anything with it because of the method you choose to express your passion.

People will never stay to listen to harsh words - it is a human trait. If someone feels they are being attacked - they won't listen to a word that is said even if it is well meaning, well said or 100% true. 

In this case, we do not know the situation at hand. Did she find this dog as a stray, already pregnant and she delivered? Was she told by her vet that due date was weeks off? Did the female go into labor early? 

Assumptions are being made and some very harsh ones at that and because of those assumptions/posts - we are unlikely ever to get the real story now and we have lost the chance at being able to help this person with their sole remaining pup - help them with further education etc etc etc.

Caring for the breed and being elitist breed snobs are two different things. 

Chihuahuas have a variety of looks - right now the look you prefer Linipi is the look that is deemed popular in the show ring and accepted as pure Chihuahua. 

However, because of the varied history of Chihuahuas and the multiple breeds that have been introduced into their lines to "create" this modern Chihuahua - you will always have different looking Chihuahuas that are purebred - which is why 2 Champion dogs that are the "ideal" can produce a gigantic rat terrier looking offspring (good ol throw back genes).

If we humans put as much care, concern and work into improving our own species maybe we could stop meddling with other ones. 

We have changed so many breeds of dogs, cats and lets not even get into horses - that everything we touch turns into what our ideal is. 

We create health issues in breeds because we like the look of certain noses, gaits and ears - we dock tails/ears because it is pleasing to OUR eyes and the kennel clubs write this into their standards - it is easy for standards to change with time as with every generation bred comes a new ideal - and the political powers that be are shaping that.

It is easy to attack someone with snide remarks and heavy handed comments however, it takes maturity patience and tact to be able to express empathy and understanding for someone's situation and to try to help them make the best of it. 

You will never educate anyone by being negative. You will only further exile the person - which perpetuates the cycle.

Do you know why so many people don't want to deal with reputable breeders? A survey a few years back indicated that the general population thought reputable breeders were snobs, elitists and too stand off-ish. This is a huge issue for ANYONE who states that they care about a breed.

If we want to correct the issue, we need to first change public opinion and only our actions can do that. 

Do you think that I am not disgusted, saddened and angry at the loss of two little Chi pups? Of course I am! However, I also can clearly see that someone was trying to reach out to us and this forum ruined that opportunity.


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## Chico's Mum (Sep 9, 2008)




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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

^^ I also agree. Most people I know who like chis actually prefer the more 'deer headed' look to the apple head. Perhaps back in the 30's breeders viewed those of them trying to round the head as 'irresponsible breeders'. So I imagine there are breeders out there that prefer that look, and want to preserve that one, the same way other breeders like the 'newer' look, and want to preserve that.


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## catalat (Apr 21, 2008)

Sorry to hear about your lost puppies. I do not know much of anything about breeding, but I hope the survivor pup and your mother chi is ok! I think your best bet would be to take her to the vet for an exam to make sure they are both ok!

I will keep them both in my thoughts!


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

Krista said:


> ^^ I also agree. Most people I know who like chis actually prefer the more 'deer headed' look to the apple head. Perhaps back in the 30's breeders viewed those of them trying to round the head as 'irresponsible breeders'. So I imagine there are breeders out there that prefer that look, and want to preserve that one, the same way other breeders like the 'newer' look, and want to preserve that.


If you look at early 1900 artwork depicting Chihuahuas they look nothing like the modern Chi. 

The reason being, is that we humans have *created* that look - that modern Chihuahua. We have interfered with natural selection, genetics and chosen a look that appealed to the breeders with power - the ones with the political power within the breed registries which then caused the slight shifts in the breed standard and what is acceptable etc etc etc. 

Do you think for one second that the modern Chihuahua would have survived for a second in the wilderness of Chihuahua, Mexico even today let alone in the 1800s? I think not! They would be too small to defend themselves, wouldn't have procreated as most of the females would have died in birth and would be extinct before being found.

We have truly succeeded in creating a wonderful companion animal, lap dog and show piece but we have lost touch with what the real Chihuahuas were like.

Here are some old photos/drawings of Chihuahuas from 1900 right up until 1965. They aren't the short snout, short leg, short bodied HUGE headed modern Chihuahuas - these were the real Chihuahuas that were bascially unfettered with.

*1900 or earlier*









*1901*









*1902*









*1919*









*1945*









*1965*









It has taken us humans a lot of work to make the modern Chihuahua. As an ethical breeder I strive to meet the standard as outlined but at the same time understand where the Chihuahua has come from and refuse to make breeding choices that are strictly for looks as to me health and temperament are far more important than show ring looks.

I think most people would agree that it is better to be healthy, sane and intelligent than just a good looking blond barbie/model type of human - so why is it acceptable for us to alter nature to suit our views of "pretty"?


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## Ciarra (May 6, 2008)

I love the look of the 1902 Chihuahua! Its amazing how many dogs have changed over the many decades, and come to look the way they do. I would agree that non show chihuahuas are healthier than Show Chihuahuas. As said in "Predigree Dogs ExPosed" On the BBC


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

Munchkin CSC said:


> I love the look of the 1902 Chihuahua! Its amazing how many dogs have changed over the many decades, and come to look the way they do. I would agree that non show chihuahuas are healthier than Show Chihuahuas. As said in "Predigree Dogs ExPosed" On the BBC


Living in Canada, I didn't have the chance to see the "Predigree Dogs ExPosed" show but I would have loved it I am sure!! 

I agree that on a whole the show quality (or style/look) dogs are more prone to the breed issues than non-standard dogs. This is simply because of the body style that is required to conform to the show standard. Sad but true an no amount of health testing will prevent it. When you go for extremes (like the huge apple heads with the teeny noses) you create problems.

What scares me the most is that in some upper circles of the North American show scene you are hearing people/breeders/handlers talking about lowering the standard from 2-6lbs to 1-6lbs ... to me that is unethical but I have seen this statement in numerous places and have heard it at shows from judges.


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

Munchkin CSC said:


> I love the look of the 1902 Chihuahua! Its amazing how many dogs have changed over the many decades, and come to look the way they do. I would agree that non show chihuahuas are healthier than Show Chihuahuas. As said in "Predigree Dogs ExPosed" On the BBC


I so agree  My mom definitely prefers the look back then. I'm not sure which I prefer really ^_^


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

cool pics, orchard lane, but were these show chis or just regular pics depicting pet chis? i could be wrong but i get the idea that these are just pics depicting chis. so, if that were the case, then the chi really hasnt changed much bc a lot of chis pictured in today's media look nothing like the show chis and look very similar to the chis in these pics.

PS. you can catch Pedigree Dogs Exposed on YouTube-- thats what i did


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Linipi Chihuahuas said:


> I agree with all of you that I am definitely too rude at times but this is a subject I just have no patience for. These puppies DO NOT ask to be brought into this world. They don't deserve to be left to die by some irresponsible person who just *lol oops* discovered her dog pregnant. Not only do I feel awful for those poor puppies, but I also feel sick to my stomach for those dogs who are going to be put to sleep because some bad pet owner bred ANOTHER unwanted litter into this crazy world.
> 
> Plus the Chihuahua is a breed I want to see preserved. I want them to always look like this:
> 
> ...


well, the truth had to be told. if people cant handle the truth, then maybe they should change their ways. the truth was you went on the facts: she had a pregnant dog which she left alone and that 2 out of the 3 babies ended up dead. you didnt make that up to make her look bad, those were words out of her "mouth." you were not cruel at all so dont believe anyone who tells you otherwise bc though you should have said it nicer (not for her sake but to keep the peace) you could have also said it lot harsher . the only reason that i said "what matters is that the puppies are loved" is bc at one point, i wanted to breed my very non standard chihuhaua and keep the puppies for myself. *gasp* it wasnt bc i was out to ruin the breed, it was bc i wanted a puppy from my baby's bloodlines to be around for future generations in my family to my enjoy...bc i loved my puppy. i didnt understand that not breeding her did NOT mean that i didnt love her... but i wouldve given her and the babies the very best care possible and i genuinely did mean well. i wasnt doing it to make money. thats why i know that not all ppl who breed non standard dogs are "bad" and i want to give this person the benefit of the doubt that she is a good person, too.

also, you are NOT an "elitist snob" for wanting to maintain the KC breed standards. what would make you an elitist snob is if you were actually glad that the puppies died bc you feel only the breed standard chis deserved to live, anyway 
PS. That dog is gorgeous...who is he? PM me


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## catalat (Apr 21, 2008)

OrchardLane said:


> We have changed so many breeds of dogs, cats and lets not even get into horses - that everything we touch turns into what our ideal is.
> 
> We create health issues in breeds because we like the look of certain noses, gaits and ears - we dock tails/ears because it is pleasing to OUR eyes and the kennel clubs write this into their standards - it is easy for standards to change with time as with every generation bred comes a new ideal - and the political powers that be are shaping that.
> 
> .


Couldn't have said it better. HUMANS have created serious health issues because of what we think looks good. I spent 60 hours for an intership in a veterinary hospitals and it sickens me to see all of the problems that are associated with some of the pure breds out there.. just because we want them to look a certain way does not necessarily mean it is in the breeds best interest.


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## rebel_yell (Mar 24, 2008)

Orchard Lane I just wanted to comment on how incredibly well written, fair, and balanced your posts have been. Not only that, but I for one have appreciated the information as well as the illustrations. I thoroughly enjoy learning new things, especially about chis and will look for your posts in the future as, from my point of view (a chi noob) you are a very knowlegeable source. Thank you!


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## Tora-Oni (Sep 13, 2008)

catalat said:


> Couldn't have said it better. HUMANS have created serious health issues because of what we think looks good. I spent 60 hours for an intership in a veterinary hospitals and it sickens me to see all of the problems that are associated with some of the pure breds out there.. just because we want them to look a certain way does not necessarily mean it is in the breeds best interest.


Yeah I suppose that is one reason why I did not care for dogs with their muzzles pushed up to their face. I originally fell in love with big dogs but little dogs are dogs too, so I just watch out for some of the issues that comes with size difference not that big dogs don't have them either like the big Newfoundlands I grew up with. I like all breeds and mutts. I have to admit I never thought about a chi before because I had known some badly breed ones and even though they were charming I just was too afraid of getting the smallest breed anything 10lbs and under I fear of being a clutz and hurting them b/c of my big size, but I found out how swift they are it eases my mind a little, but I still need to remind myself that accidents can happen.


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## carachi (Mar 20, 2005)

Thanks for all the information OrchardLane! You've given me a heap to think about. I wish I had a way with words like you do, I really appreciated your input.


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

chibellaxo said:


> cool pics, orchard lane, but were these show chis or just regular pics depicting pet chis? i could be wrong but i get the idea that these are just pics depicting chis. so, if that were the case, then the chi really hasnt changed much bc a lot of chis pictured in today's media look nothing like the show chis and look very similar to the chis in these pics.
> 
> PS. you can catch Pedigree Dogs Exposed on YouTube-- thats what i did


I've posted pictures on here before of show chis back then, and they do indeed look a lot like that


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

chibellaxo said:


> cool pics, orchard lane, but were these show chis or just regular pics depicting pet chis? i could be wrong but i get the idea that these are just pics depicting chis. so, if that were the case, then the chi really hasnt changed much bc a lot of chis pictured in today's media look nothing like the show chis and look very similar to the chis in these pics.
> 
> PS. you can catch Pedigree Dogs Exposed on YouTube-- thats what i did


I would love to be able to watch YouTube but alas I have dial up - I am however going to see if a friend can download it for me and then I can watch it 

Now, the photos ....

The photos pre-1904 are for Chihuahuas in general since there were no shows for Chihuahuas officially as a breed or in a group (although owners did take their "finds" to the shows perhaps even in a rare breed showcase) as the first Chihuahua was registered in 1904 by the AKC.

Here is a bit more info on the photos that I posted ... 

The photo of the boy sitting with his Chihuahua from 1900 or earlier - this boy would have been from an extremely wealthy family as only those with substantial funds could afford a professional photographer sitting/session. [This photo was taken by Cobb of Binghamton New York.] So this Chihuahua in particular fascinates me as (obviously he is overweight and older) but he would have been very close to the Chihuahuas found in the ruins (maybe even just 1 generation out!) 

The illustration from 1901 is a Gibson print and on the bottom it has "Dog: Here He Has Been Hanging Around Us For A Month And We Leave To-Night" - so is he a stray or is he their hosts' dog? We don't really know.

The 1902 illustration was published in 1902 but it would have been drawn prior to that as it is part of a book: "A Record of Five Years’ Exploration Among the Tribes of the Western Sierra Madre; In the Tierra Caliente of Tepic and Jalisco; and Among the Tarascos of Michoacan" By Carl Lumholtz, M.A. The Chihuahuas shown here were dogs owned by the Tribesmen and were found in Chihuahua, Mexico.

The illustration from 1919 of the Chihuahua and Mexican Hairless was featured in National Geographic magazine and was drawn by Louis Agassiz Fuertes. We are not sure if he drew from dogs present in the US and put them in a "Mexican" backdrop or if they were actually drawn on site but it would be fairly reasonable to believe he had US dogs to draw as what are the chances that you would find these two hanging out together in the wild?

The photo for the 1945 ad for Gaines dog food likely contained purebred show dogs as in 1943 The Quaker Oat Company purchased Gaines Enterprise (the makers of Gaines) and they were establishing the brand nationwide and they had the funds to afford the best models available as a way to set themselves apart (being a higher standard). 

The photo of the Great Dane carrying the Chihuahua in a basket from 1965 is actually showing two of Barbara Wodehouse's dogs. Many of you would know her as the famous dog trainer, breeder, author. She definitely wouldn't have a substandard dog in her pack as she had access to the best of the best.

Also I have two other photos:










This photo was definitely taken by/for someone with extreme wealth. It is extremely old - late 1800's-1900 at the most. It is a glass negative (therefore taken by a photographer) and it's title is "Indianapolis, Bogert's Midgie". This dog was held in extremely high esteem and was likely one of the foundation breeders for our Chihuahuas. It is nearly unheard of people even with substantial money to have a photo taken solely of their dog at that time in history due to the cost. There is even another photo of this dog with a side view of the head. So two photos of a dog?! That really shows us something ... [I had to lighten this photo up so you could see the outline of the dog better.]










This photo was taken for a 1944 National Geographic Magazine article. There are other Chi photos in it but I can't find them online (I used to own the article but it got ruined in the move) and these Chihuahuas were show dogs at the time but they wouldn't be suitable today as their noses are too long now.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Munchkin CSC said:


> I would agree that non show chihuahuas are healthier than Show Chihuahuas. As said in "Predigree Dogs ExPosed" On the BBC



I wasn't going to get involved in this slanging match but I have to say that you saying you agree that "non show chihuahuas are healthier than Show Chihuahuas" is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in ages. You opinion is a very biased one as was the program "Pedigree Dogs Exposed". When it was initially aired even people who weren't doggy people thought that all this program set out to do was slate pedigree dogs. 

I would like to you prove that non show chihuahuas are healthier than Show Chihuahuas - it would make interesting reading.

IMHO the difference between show pedigree dogs and non show pedigree dogs.......most breeders of show pedigree dogs can be traced, many (not all) of the non show breeders do not use a personal web site, land line phone number, allow their home address to be known through catalogues/breed club lists/petplan etc. They can virtually drop off the face of the earth.


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

jesshan said:


> IMHO the difference between show pedigree dogs and non show pedigree dogs.......most breeders of show pedigree dogs can be traced, many (not all) of the non show breeders do not use a personal web site, land line phone number, allow their home address to be known through catalogues/breed club lists/petplan etc. They can virtually drop off the face of the earth.


I would have to say that non-show breeders are MORE apt to have a website than show breeders. 

Your top level show breeders that are in the ring don't need a website as they breed for themselves and their associates and they have waiting lists that are years long.

MOST registered breeders (regardless of reputation OR worth) and the joe-blows DO have websites. I can list over 100 right now that are not even worth a chance because of their breeding programs.

Also most dog scams occur from websites ... which is why:

Breed registries and clubs strongly suggest you DON'T buy a dog sight unseen and based on a website etc etc etc

Reputable breeders don't rely on personal websites to locate prospective buyers. Most use a website as a tool to educate people on their breed and use it as a tool to help screen prospective buyers. 

I have seen so many non-show breeders with websites it makes me sick. They are like tacky sales sites that are pleading "BUY THIS PUPPY" and they have all sorts of tactics like cutesy photos of the pups in different staged shots.

If you are a reputable breeder you shouldn't have a litter of puppies if you don't have a waiting list to meet the demand. End of story.

As for putting your address and phone number ....

I honestly think it is a serious security issue for ANYONE to put their address on the internet these days and being a breeder it is especially dangerous - WITH your address online ... that is just asking to get robbed and have your dogs hurt, maimed or stolen. 

I also think adding personal information like your phone number etc is a risk as well and if you are concerned about your dogs - you should avoid putting too much personal information out there as there are reverse look up websites where you can type in a number and find out the address.

There are too many dishonest people out there. You cannot take risks, especially on the internet. You have no control over who sees that information.

As a dog owner and a breeder especially you need to protect your dogs. Publicly posting your address and other information that could lead someone to your address is taking a risk that is unnecessary.

However, just because you don't publicly post your information - does NOT mean that you want to drop off the face of the earth.

*For instance, a reputable breeder will:*

Provide a written contract which would include all of their contact information. 

Insist on the prospective puppy owner coming to their home to meet the puppy, the parent's and other dogs.

Insist on visiting the prospective puppy owner's home personally to inspect the living conditions.

Provide references from past and current puppy owners as well as their vet.

Plus a ton of other things .... too many to list.


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Krista said:


> I've posted pictures on here before of show chis back then, and they do indeed look a lot like that


really? do you have the links and would the pics still be up?? bc i noticed, some of the older posts have links to pics but the pics are gone...id love to see pics of show chis from the past


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

OrchardLane said:


> I would love to be able to watch YouTube but alas I have dial up - I am however going to see if a friend can download it for me and then I can watch it
> 
> Now, the photos ....
> 
> ...


dont know who barbara is but i do know that for people who train dogs, physical conformation isnt really the key thing they're looking for (which is why i GUESS a lot of dogs who do agility arent the most standard looking?). anyway, if you have pics of show chis from that era, please let me know...your post made me curious


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## Luella (May 20, 2008)

wow ..

i'm sorry for your loss and my prayers are with mum and pup. 
i do hope we hear an update, on how they are.

most people have really good input and opinions i agree with some and dissagree with others and agree that some people could word things better.

I thing i dissagree with is always leaving it to the reptual breeders, there not going to be able to breed forever, and how did they become so good anyway i doubt they were born with it. 
I think yes if you don't want to get into breeding, (to better the breed) and defferently if you havent read everything you possibly can about it, leave it to them. 
But those that do will need all the help and advice they can get defferently for there first time even if they have read all the books articals ect they can get there hands on, nothing can prepare you fully as to what is going to happen as you just don't know. I think that sites like these and RB should be there for those starting out in breeding to give them all the support and help they can. 
Not to start telling them there bad, they cant do it and should just give up and leave it to the RB, Right at the first hurdel.
I do think thou that pebbles dosen't and didn't read up and know much about breading but i cant say i am right because as it was said before we don't know the full facts, and dout we ever will.

also about non ped agaist reg ped being healthier, there kind of the same non peds sometimes you cant tell there past (they could have been crossed somewhere along the line) and some you find in breeding farms, and with reg ped you find some interbreed and breed to meet a standered which can and have been know to, cause problems, and some are in breeding farms too, not from RB just some one who got hold of a Reg pup and breed for money because they believe they can get more selling a reg pup..<i have seen someone who done this her bitch had a cross litter and then in the season straight after she bred the bitch with another kc, the puppies all had serious health problems, there was one puppy that was really tiny (she called it a teacup!!!!) she tried selling that pup for £3000 pounds, buut kept it insead, the pup died at 8weeks, turned out it was fed baby formula as a pup as it wouldn't suckle, and she was too weak and small and passed in her sleep.

that is just my opinion i may be wrong..if you believe i am and want to tell me your opinion you can but in a nice way at least.


I think this is a wonderfull site with some great people on and always like to refer here for information, but do think twice about asking a questions as i would rather not have someone jump down my throat, beacuse i was curious and wanted to learn something.


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## Luella (May 20, 2008)

also love the old pictures, i've tried looking for some before but never could find them  x


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Luella said:


> wow ..
> 
> 
> I thing i dissagree with is always leaving it to the reptual breeders, there not going to be able to breed forever, and how did they become so good anyway i doubt they were born with it.
> ...


LOL, that's why reputable breeders have *experienced* mentors to work with them..they dont just cross their fingers and hope the all the books and all the threads from online forum theyve read were enough


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

OrchardLane said:


> *For instance, a reputable breeder will:*
> 
> Provide a written contract which would include all of their contact information.
> 
> ...


i dont know...i know a lot of reputable breeders who dont go to that extreme. its good to care about your puppies ( which is why you should have the parents health tested, and mom/babies given the best health care, etc) but inspecting homes like youre a rescue seems a bit excessive. i know because MOST reputable breeders that I know dont do that...lol, actually, none of the reputable breeders i know do that!


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## Luella (May 20, 2008)

chibellaxo said:


> LOL, that's why reputable breeders have *experienced* mentors to work with them..they dont just cross their fingers and hope the all the books and all the threads from online forum theyve read were enough


i understand and know that and that is what i was trying to say about RB's being there to help/mentor them, not just tell them to leave it,
i just cant seem to get my words out properly. sry


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## Luella (May 20, 2008)

chibellaxo said:


> i dont know...i know a lot of reputable breeders who dont go to that extreme. its good to care bout your puppies ( which is why you should have the parents health tested, etc) but inspecting homes like youre a rescue seems a bit excessive. i know because MOST reputable breeders that I know dont do that. they just ask a bunch of questions about your knowledge and experience with the breed and they ask you which vet you plan on taking the baby...


True. 
Some do ask if you would object to a home check.


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Luella said:


> True.
> Some do ask if you would object to a home check.


never came across one that asked that and the breeders ive talked to are some of the most decorated breeders in the US. i guess, if one asked me that id be pretty weirded out but i prob would go along with it if the puppy was one i just absolutely LOVED and the breeder had a very good record


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Luella said:


> i understand and know that and that is what i was trying to say about RB's being there to help/mentor them, not just tell them to leave it,
> i just cant seem to get my words out properly. sry


the mentors ive talked to dont just leave new breeders "to it." they are there to guide them through out the whole process-- from eduction ( long before conception), to stud selection, to offering advice through the birthing process...


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

I know a lot of reputable breeders that don't do home inspections and honestly it is surprising. However the ones that take the extra time to pre-screen prospective owners - often have the highest placement rates with their dogs. 

Many "decorated" breeders couldn't tell you what their placement rate is and I guarantee you if they did give you a figure it wouldn't be 100% (as in all of their dogs are where they were originally placed).

For instance, this is a common example of what I run into all the time - breeders like this:

There is a decorated show breeder here in our province. She is decorated in numerous breeds as she is working to get her requirements to become a judge. She cannot tell you where most of her dogs are and she honestly could care less (although she puts up a great front that she cares). We ended up with one of the dogs she was supposed to place for another decorated breeder (who is extremely rich and known world wide for their lines) - after the little dog's show career ended due to mishandling. The original breeder of the dog had no idea that this little gem had been placed and re-placed several times after the fact as they had been told by the breeder here that she was placed - end of story. 

More breeders SHOULD do home inspections - if you really care about your dogs, there is no other way of being sure. Getting someone to fill out a questionnaire about their home and asking if they would object to a home visit is not due diligence. You are responsible for the dogs you bring into this world and you owe it to them to do due diligence when placing them. Yes home visits take time out of your day BUT in the long run, are for the best interests of the puppy you are placing.

We have done rescue since 1999 and through those experiences of placing animals have found that home visits tell you A LOT about a person. If you haven't seen where your dog is going to be living - you won't see potential problems - IE: puppy proofing that needs to be done, the other 24 dogs the person failed to tell you about, etc. 

People can be deceiving - they can tell you what you want to hear, know what questions to ask etc. It is the responsibility of the dog breeder to investigate each prospective owner thoroughly.

We do a home visit with every potential puppy owner BUT it is not like the Spanish Inquisition. We choose to take "their puppy" to their home so they can have a visit. It gives us a chance to allow them to see their puppy in their environment, answer questions they may have about puppy proofing - potty training (IE: where to set them up etc) and allows us a chance to see where our puppy will be living.

We have yet to make it to the home visit stage and have it fall through because of our pre-screening process. That being said, if something was amiss, I would not hesitate to return their deposit and walk out.

We have a waiting list that we honestly cannot fulfill unless we lowered our standards (which we won't) and if someone didn't want a home check (no one has ever refused to date) then we would simply move on to the next person who is on the waiting list.

It disturbs me that so many breeders (even "decorated ones") ship their puppies everywhere and anywhere. We refuse to ship our puppies even though we have had offers from California to Japan. If someone from another country wants one of our puppies - they will need to come to us (and obviously _we_ would have to not do a home visit but I would see if I had a contact in the area that could do one for me). We need to meet the person face to face. Those are our rules and that is why all of our dogs are placed in their original homes and we have the proof to back it up.


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

^ I know if I were a breeder, i would insist on home inspections ... personally


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

chibellaxo said:


> dont know who barbara is but i do know that for people who train dogs, physical conformation isnt really the key thing they're looking for (which is why i GUESS a lot of dogs who do agility arent the most standard looking?). anyway, if you have pics of show chis from that era, please let me know...your post made me curious


Barbara Wodehouse (or Woodhouse depending on US or UK spelling) was an obedience trainer - not agility or any other sport. 

She also _bred_ dogs - as in was a breeder with her own kennel. She also had a BBC television show (in the 1980's I believe) helping owners train their dogs. She is world famous for her statement "There are no bad dogs"

She is quite harsh in her methods compared to the trainers of today but she is a good read. You should really look her up.


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

OrchardLane said:


> Barbara Wodehouse (or Woodhouse depending on US or UK spelling) was an obedience trainer - not agility or any other sport.
> 
> She also _bred_ dogs - as in was a breeder with her own kennel. She also had a BBC television show (in the 1980's I believe) helping owners train their dogs. She is world famous for her statement "There are no bad dogs"
> 
> She is quite harsh in her methods compared to the trainers of today but she is a good read. You should really look her up.


so you mean shes nothing like Cesar Millan (or however you spell it)? if so, then i am interested and will look her up


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

chibellaxo said:


> so you mean shes nothing like Cesar Millan (or however you spell it)? if so, then i am interested and will look her up


Barbara Woodhouse was very much "old school" when it came to dog training. She was quite a character and if you can read her life story do so!

Her methods of dog training are largely discredited now, she advocated "choke chains" and I hate to think what suffering she inadvertently caused many dogs. Like most dog trainers, she achieved something using her methods, but I wouldn't have let her near my dogs!

If I remember rightly, she owned Chihuahuas and Great danes.


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## Chili-mom (Sep 7, 2008)

I remember watching her show in the 80's She did that "WALKIES" thing to get the dogs to heel. She died in 1988 at the age of 78 if I rememered right. Many years before that she was a riding instructer, Horses another on of my passion


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

OrchardLane said:


> I know a lot of reputable breeders that don't do home inspections and honestly it is surprising. However the ones that take the extra time to pre-screen prospective owners - often have the highest placement rates with their dogs.
> 
> Many "decorated" breeders couldn't tell you what their placement rate is and I guarantee you if they did give you a figure it wouldn't be 100% (as in all of their dogs are where they were originally placed).
> 
> ...


i know that decorated breeders ship their puppies world wide. i said that  where do you get these facts, anyway, and who are these famous breeders you mention? chances are, they're in my breeder's circle and i will pass the word on that there is someone in their midst who is being shady. surely, you wont object to these people being exposed, since (after all) you care so much about these little dogs, right? 

its so hard for me to imagine a dog being passed around without its breeder knowing bc these decorated breeders really watch their placed puppies like a hawk...my breeder is always emailing me with updates on my puppy...i have a feeling once i get him, she'll be wanting to know where he is and what hes doing at least weekly.


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## Marie (Apr 22, 2006)

Originally Posted by OrchardLane - 

"We have a waiting list that we honestly cannot fulfill unless we lowered our standards (which we won't) and if someone didn't want a home check (no one has ever refused to date) then we would simply move on to the next person who is on the waiting list.

It disturbs me that so many breeders (even "decorated ones") ship their puppies everywhere and anywhere. We refuse to ship our puppies even though we have had offers from California to Japan. If someone from another country wants one of our puppies - they will need to come to us (and obviously we would have to not do a home visit but I would see if I had a contact in the area that could do one for me). We need to meet the person face to face. Those are our rules and that is why all of our dogs are placed in their original homes and we have the proof to back it up."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It warms my heart to know that there are breeders like you out there!!! I'm not a breeder, just a plain ole' dog lover, but I know I could never ship a puppy off to unknown places with unknown people. So I applaud you for your ethics. I wish all breeders were like you.

Only once in my life did I ever put a dog in the belly of a plane and it was out of absolute necessity because she was too large to fit under the seat. We were on vacation in another state and came across a very abused precious little cocker spaniel...and the only way to get here home with us was to bring her back on the flight. She was very shy and very frightened when we first met her. Sitting in my seat on the plane, I could look out the window and see the baggage being loaded...and I saw the absolute terror in her eyes as her crate ascended the cargo ramp. I can only imagine how horrible it must have been for her during the hours it took to get home. I swore then and then I would never do that to another animal again. She had nightmares for years after getting her home...would wake at night wimpering, crying and wide eyed terrified. I tend to think the nightmares were due to the abuse she suffered previously, but I sometimes wonder if the terror of that plane ride played a part in it too. 



__________________


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

I should say that many well known exhibitors ship overseas HOWEVER they are not just stuffed onto a plane, they are picked up by their new owner and generally are bought by another overseas exhibitor who have been corresponding with the breeder for a while, someone who they either know and have met through European shows and have been recommended by another person.

Saying that, I myself have never shipped a puppy anywhere.

I always sell with a contract but as we have learned on here, they can be sold on unbeknown to the breeder. 

I do know where my puppies are and keep in touch with them by phone, email or see them personally. 


I have to say that this thread has now gone off topic but I hope the who person originally posted the question has read the posts in response to her question rather than the ususal IMO posts.


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

[deleted--i found the answer to my question.


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