# Back Legs...



## rms3402 (Dec 2, 2010)

I've always noticed that when Roxy runs, she sometimes runs sideways. LOL. When she runs super fast, she runs perfectly straight. But, if she's just running to run, she runs sideways, like I said.

I was doing some research tonight on LP and other health issues that chihuahuas or small dogs can have. I don't know if now I'm just being paranoid or what, but I noticed tonight that when she walks ... her back legs go outwards. I was sitting on the floor, and she put her front legs up on me. I noticed one of her back legs go out to the side. Her paw stays in place, and then the rest of the leg leans outwards. Then, I had her walk, and I noticed that her legs still went outward a few times when she was walking.

I can try to get a picture or a video sometime. Might be hard to do that. But is this normal? Is this something to worry about? Is it a symptom of something?


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## ~LS~ (Oct 29, 2011)

I don't want to freak you out, it could be nothing. But your description sounds
similar to Bella's. Bring Roxy in for a check up, the vet can do a test right there
on the spot by feeling her knees, he'll let you know. You can ask for an x-ray
too if you or him think it's necessary. Try to not stress until you've been to
the vet, there is no use.


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## rms3402 (Dec 2, 2010)

Gah! Scary! The last time we were there, which wasn't THAT long ago. Maybe January? He said that her legs were in great shape. They said that every other time we have been there too. I just never noticed this before... but like I said, I could just be paranoid because I've been researching.

Is this exactly what you notice on Bella?


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## rms3402 (Dec 2, 2010)

I have never ever ever seen her run with a limp, hold up her back leg, act like she's in pain, etc.


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## ~LS~ (Oct 29, 2011)

rms3402 said:


> I have never ever ever seen her run with a limp, hold up her back leg, act like she's in pain, etc.



Me neither. The only sign is what you described earlier.

But seriously do not worry so much, you could just be getting paranoid after all
the Googling. It happens to me too! Maybe take some pics or a video, there are
a couple of girls on here who show and can usually tell just by looking, maybe
they could help tell you. I would take a vet appointment just in case though.

If you want I can take a look at your pics too and try to tell you if it looks
anything at all like Bella's. But keep in mind Bella has grade 4, it's the worse one.


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## jan896 (Dec 9, 2009)

Chico was the same way.... but never limped or held his leg up.... it looked like he had been riding a horse all day (bow legged)...lol....the Vet I first took him to said nothing was wrong...... I knew 'in my gut' that something wasn't right and took him to another Vet..... he said Chico was Grade 3-4 and needed surgery! I found a surgeon highly recommended in this area and Xray confirmed that he did need the surgery...

don't fret though.... wait until you see a Vet....but if you 'feel' something just isn't right..... get a second opinion to but yourself at ease......


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## rms3402 (Dec 2, 2010)

Oh boy. I am definitely a little nervous now. I'll have to check better tomorrow and try to take a video so you ladies can see.

She is a little chubbier than where I would like her to be/where she should be. Do you think the extra pound or pound and 1/2 could have something to do with it? If she loses that weight, would that help her legs go back to normal if something does happen to be wrong?

Is the bow-legged-ness all that you noticed in Chico?


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

She might just not be balanced and be totally fine. If they are out of balance they can have that side-winding movement. And we struggle with balance even in top quality show stock and can get movement issues so it certainly is very common in pets! It might not be a bad idea to have a vet check her knees/legs/heart etc out now anyway since she is a bit older.


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## OzChi (Oct 26, 2011)

> but I noticed tonight that when she walks ... her back legs go outwards. I was sitting on the floor, and she put her front legs up on me. I noticed one of her back legs go out to the side. Her paw stays in place, and then the rest of the leg leans outwards. Then, I had her walk, and I noticed that her legs still went outward a few times when she was walking.


Sounds a bit like what i've noticed in Chloe. She's been given the all clear by the vet too but I'm still worried. When she walks instead of her legs going backwards and forwards in a straight line it's like they they go out and around, like an eggbeater kick you would do in swimming (only back to front). She also hops sometimes on walks.


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## rms3402 (Dec 2, 2010)

flippedstars said:


> She might just not be balanced and be totally fine. If they are out of balance they can have that side-winding movement. And we struggle with balance even in top quality show stock and can get movement issues so it certainly is very common in pets! It might not be a bad idea to have a vet check her knees/legs/heart etc out now anyway since she is a bit older.


I didn't even realize that was possible. That is good news and makes me feel much better. I definitely will set up an appointment at the vets then though, just in case. One of your dogs has/had LP right? Oakley maybe? Or am I thinking wrong? 



OzChi said:


> Sounds a bit like what i've noticed in Chloe. She's been given the all clear by the vet too but I'm still worried. When she walks instead of her legs going backwards and forwards in a straight line it's like they they go out and around, like an eggbeater kick you would do in swimming (only back to front). She also hops sometimes on walks.


Yes! They do go out like that. But, I didn't notice Roxy's circling around... it's like it just comes back to being straight. Roxy doesn't hop either. Hmmmmm. Has Chloe been to a vet about it at all? I take it not since you just said that you have noticed it. If it's possible for you to get a video of her doing that, that would be fantastic. I'd like to see how similar the motion is.


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## OzChi (Oct 26, 2011)

I asked the vet about it when she was there last week with her GI issues. She agreed that it was an odd looking gait but she couldn't get the patellas to move out of their sockets and the x-ray of her tummy showed her hip joints and they were also normal.

I was going to make a video of Chloe playing ball because it is just about the cutest thing you will ever see IMHO so I will also film her funny walk. I will have to get someone to explain to me how to upload though.


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## ~LS~ (Oct 29, 2011)

Jan, did you do the surgery?


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## ~LS~ (Oct 29, 2011)

Sarah, you can upload it through Photobucket just like with pictures.


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## svdreamer (Feb 20, 2010)

Chumley does that, but he has the loosest joints I have ever seen. He like paddles all four extremities instead of walking normal. He has perfect knees, loose hips, loose shoulders.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

rms3402 said:


> I didn't even realize that was possible. That is good news and makes me feel much better. I definitely will set up an appointment at the vets then though, just in case. One of your dogs has/had LP right? Oakley maybe? Or am I thinking wrong?


Oakley smashed her knee jumping a baby gate - in her case, the specialist said it was not genetic because the patella was actually broken 4 ways and her bone was normal. She also chipped off the groove. But yes, the diagnosis was LP and she had corrective surgery 

Bryco, the first dog I finished a championship on, also has LP. He is about a grade 2 in both of his legs and completely asymptomatic at 2 1/2 years old, so right now we have decided against surgery (I will never breed from him either, for obvious reasons!). He does not have any bowing of his legs and he moves like he is floating on air lol. So, you can not always tell by looking at a dog something is wrong.

Ivy, a female I petted out, also had LP. She had the worst, and was diagnosed grade 3-4 by 7 months of age. So I spayed her and placed her, but honestly, at her age, you would not have known by looking at her anything was wrong with her. She jumped, ran, and played like any normal dog. I don't believe her new owner has done surgery on her as of yet and she is coming up on 2 years of age. 

LP isn't always something you can see or feel and there aren't always symptoms. Sometimes, bad cases, are very visible. I could see a problem in the first video LS posted of her little Bella. 

A vet visit will give you peace of mind and also give you a point of reference to work from IF it is LP.


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## rms3402 (Dec 2, 2010)

~LS~ said:


> Jan, did you do the surgery?


She did do the surgery. Here's the thread: http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chihuahua-health/61811-chicos-surgery-journey-luxating-patella.html

And here are pictures: Chico LP Surgery pictures by jan896 - Photobucket



svdreamer said:


> Chumley does that, but he has the loosest joints I have ever seen. He like paddles all four extremities instead of walking normal. He has perfect knees, loose hips, loose shoulders.


Ah! Fantastic. That is good news. I wonder why that happens! I am glad his knees are perfect though. Can there then be issues with loose hips and shoulders though?


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## ~LS~ (Oct 29, 2011)

flippedstars said:


> Oakley smashed her knee jumping a baby gate - in her case, the specialist said it was not genetic because the patella was actually broken 4 ways and her bone was normal. She also chipped off the groove. But yes, the diagnosis was LP and she had corrective surgery
> 
> Bryco, the first dog I finished a championship on, also has LP. He is about a grade 2 in both of his legs and completely asymptomatic at 2 1/2 years old, so right now we have decided against surgery (I will never breed from him either, for obvious reasons!). He does not have any bowing of his legs and he moves like he is floating on air lol. So, you can not always tell by looking at a dog something is wrong.
> 
> ...






That was very helpful, thank you for sharing. 
Now let me ask you a question, if Bella was your dog, would you go 
through with the surgery? Right away? Down the line? Why or why not?

(sorry for hijacking thread)


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## ~LS~ (Oct 29, 2011)

Thanks for the links Rachel.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

~LS~ said:


> That was very helpful, thank you for sharing.
> Now let me ask you a question, if Bella was your dog, would you go
> through with the surgery? Right away? Down the line? Why or why not?
> 
> (sorry for hijacking thread)


I kind of already just wrote a semi answer on your tub thread actually lol...we cross posted!

Honestly, I am not a vet. I only know that I would only do surgery if there were visible signs of daily pain. Oakley's was AWFUL. I should try to get the xray on here. Her knee cap was literally in the back of her leg and all mashed up. SOOOO gross. She couldn't move without being in pain and it made more sense once they opened her up and saw that the bone was chipped and actually broken. 

Bryco almost died the last time he was under anesthesia so I will probably opt to never have surgery for him, even though he is insured and it would not cost me a penny, because he is in no pain, and not affected in his daily life, I am not going to risk his life to fix a problem that isn't bothering him. 

I think you need to assess if it is bothering her. Figure out if she is getting around ok. Is she happy? Decently active? Or does she seem pained and withdrawn? She has lived this long with it and the reality is probably can live her entire life perfectly fine with the problem, especially since it is only in one leg. God did give dogs an extra leg ya know  They only need 3. But if she is not carrying the affected leg, uses it to motor around, even if not in a normal fashion (hopping, maybe, instead of gaiting), it probably isn't bothering her. Dogs are tough, so they do deal well with pain, but you seem in tune with her and I think you will know in your heart what the right thing to do for her is.

The other thing to consider is she is TEENY TINY. There is NOT much leg to work with and the bones are already deformed. Surgery may not be successful and any good vet will tell you that. But I would have a specialist check her out and go from there. A lot of times 'fixing' a grade 4 w surgery only makes it a grade 1 or 2, which in reality, can cause more pain than the knee cap simply just being out of it's grove, because then the knee DOES have the ability to luxate and probably will. There is no hard and fast way to know. Surgery does, however, almost guarantee arthritis later. So it has its tradeoffs. Higher grade LP usually isn't a culprit for causing arthritis -- it is the skipping motion of the patella in and out over the groove for years in a grade 2 that causes arthritis.


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## jan896 (Dec 9, 2009)

~LS~ said:


> Jan, did you do the surgery?



yes, Chico had surgery.......

Here is his 'journey album' recording the surgery....
http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chihuahua-health/61811-chicos-surgery-journey-luxating-patella.html


pics of the surgery are here..... **warning**
Chico LP Surgery pictures by jan896 - Photobucket


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## ~LS~ (Oct 29, 2011)

THANK YOU flippedstars!

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain your point of view, it makes
perfect sense. Bella is not in pain, does not skip or limp, she uses all legs, plays,
runs, walks without problems. Something for me to take into consideration.
Thanks again.  


Jan, thank you for sharing your experience with me. I looked at the photos and
will now read the thread.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

good advice on this thread!

Rachel, just wanted to say I agree with getting an opinion from a vet. I'd also have him check her hips for Legg Perthes (avascular necrosis of the femoral head) which is also common in toy breeds. They can do a simple x-ray to rule it out. 

If she is overweight, YES, get the weight off. IT WILL HELP. It won't cure LP by any means if she has it, but it will take a load of stress off her joints. So slim her down if she needs it. 

Also, as Kristi pointed out, some dogs have faulty movement that causes them to sidewind because their back legs will bump into their front legs if they move too fast. So they just move to the side so the back legs have room.


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## svdreamer (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok, I may be wrong, but I thought most dogs 'dogtracked', the back legs and butt were to the side and from the front, they would track in two lines, if you know what I mean. Is this a fault? Most of my dogs dogtrack. I tried looking it up, but they just showed greyhound racing. lol

And my vet told me basically the same as flipped, if Pepe is not showing any pain, with his small size, surgery would not be recommended and could cause more harm than good. So, we will not be doing surgery even though his is a grade 4. He runs, jumps, plays, basically everything and very rarely he will hold up the leg for a few seconds. Then he is off again.


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## svdreamer (Feb 20, 2010)

rms3402 said:


> Ah! Fantastic. That is good news. I wonder why that happens! I am glad his knees are perfect though. Can there then be issues with loose hips and shoulders though?


His are extremely loose for some reason. His hip has popped out of socket and I was able to pop it back in, thats how loose they are. I guess he was just born that way, sort of like contortionists that are able to fold themselves into a box. It's mostly loose tendons and ligaments. I have tried exercising him, playing chase and thowing toys out back for an hour or so each day, and I see no improvement.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

svdreamer said:


> Ok, I may be wrong, but I thought most dogs 'dogtracked', the back legs and butt were to the side and from the front, they would track in two lines, if you know what I mean. Is this a fault? Most of my dogs dogtrack. I tried looking it up, but they just showed greyhound racing. lol
> 
> And my vet told me basically the same as flipped, if Pepe is not showing any pain, with his small size, surgery would not be recommended and could cause more harm than good. So, we will not be doing surgery even though his is a grade 4. He runs, jumps, plays, basically everything and very rarely he will hold up the leg for a few seconds. Then he is off again.


I think you mean 'single tracking'. Here's a good article on movement.

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/more_than_meets_the_eye.pdf

You really have to train your eye to see correct movement. Reading about it is one thing, actually watching dogs move is totally different.


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## svdreamer (Feb 20, 2010)

Thank you, Tracy, for that very informative article. I enjoy readng things like this that increase my knowledge. I guess in the article they call it “crabbing” or “side winding”. From the front of the dog, you can see the butt moved out of line with the shoulders and the back feet fall to the side of the tract that the front feet are making. I usually see it with the butt moved to the right as you look at them and the back feet hit the ground to the right of the front feet. I just took it to be all dogs did this as I have seen it all the time. We even say a car that is not straight so that it's wheel are in line that that car is dogtracking.


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## rms3402 (Dec 2, 2010)

flippedstars said:


> Bryco, the first dog I finished a championship on, also has LP. He is about a grade 2 in both of his legs and completely asymptomatic at 2 1/2 years old, so right now we have decided against surgery (I will never breed from him either, for obvious reasons!). He does not have any bowing of his legs and he moves like he is floating on air lol. So, you can not always tell by looking at a dog something is wrong.


I had no idea that Bryco had LP! Bummer! I guess I just assumed that he is the male you bred with your puppies because he is just so beautiful! It makes me feel better that LP might not really ever be a problem if Roxy would have it, because clearly Bryco does not act like he has it.


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## rms3402 (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks everyone for all of the great advice. I appreciate that article Tracy! 

So now, I am thinking of pet insurance. What if Roxy DOES have LP and DOES need surgery at some point? I need to have insurance BEFORE the vet puts anything into her record, correct? They have always said that her knees and legs look/feel great, so would that be in her records? And if so, would that count against her when getting pet insurance? What pet insurance would cover a lot of the cost of LP surgery and the other costs that come with it? Is pet insurance even worth it?


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

rms3402 said:


> Thanks everyone for all of the great advice. I appreciate that article Tracy!
> 
> So now, I am thinking of pet insurance. What if Roxy DOES have LP and DOES need surgery at some point? I need to have insurance BEFORE the vet puts anything into her record, correct? They have always said that her knees and legs look/feel great, so would that be in her records? And if so, would that count against her when getting pet insurance? What pet insurance would cover a lot of the cost of LP surgery and the other costs that come with it? Is pet insurance even worth it?


Yes, most insurance companies require a 6 month waiting period. If anything occurs before you get the insurance or during the wait period, it is considered a pre-existing condition and they will not cover it. 

As long as the vet has never mentioned any problems with her knees or diagnosed LP, it will not be considered. Just make sure the waiting period is over before she is diagnosed. 

Pet Plan is what we went with. Kind of expensive but worth it, in my opinion.


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

rms3402 said:


> Thanks everyone for all of the great advice. I appreciate that article Tracy!
> 
> So now, I am thinking of pet insurance. What if Roxy DOES have LP and DOES need surgery at some point? I need to have insurance BEFORE the vet puts anything into her record, correct? They have always said that her knees and legs look/feel great, so would that be in her records? And if so, would that count against her when getting pet insurance? What pet insurance would cover a lot of the cost of LP surgery and the other costs that come with it? Is pet insurance even worth it?


Yes, get the insurance now if you are thinking about it. I think that Pet Plan is the best as far as not excluding leg issues. I believe they will not cover leg issues for 6 months after you first enroll, and if your vet says anything about her legs in those 6 months, they won't cover it. Pet plan is pretty affordable and has great reviews. So if you do get it, do it right away and unless her legs are bothering her avoid your vet.


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## rms3402 (Dec 2, 2010)

Missy, Ashley... do you have it? I'm currently reading about it now. Took a screen shot of this... What is the best option out of these?


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

I had it for Lion a while back, but I had to cancel because I want to save money for vet bills every month as well. I will probably get it again when I find a job up here but right now it is out of my budget to cover both dogs and save for vet bills/buy ZiwiPeak. I just had the Bronze- I believe my deductible was $200.


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

If I remember correctly we did gold. But it was pretty pricey. Thank god mom helped with that one! Honestly, I think anything is better than nothing. I'd probably do silver if I was paying- balance between price and benefits. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## rms3402 (Dec 2, 2010)

So Bronze and Silver would cover LP costs?


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

Bronze would cover LP- I think the only benefits of the more expensive plans is that you get more money per year, and you get reimbursed if your dog dies/is lost/etc. I don't think LP surgery is close to 8,000 so the bronze should cover it.


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