# Haven't the KC (UK) banned Merle for a good reason?



## Elle (May 4, 2010)

For Stud - (link removed)

I came across this and it made me angry that someone (who purports to be a good breeder) would advertise a Merle for stud, in the first place. Let alone without providing potential 'customers' any of the information about Merles that is on the Kennel Club website: Merle Coat Colour in the Chihuahua - The Kennel Club

Grrrr! (Or am I just being picky here?)


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## Terri (Aug 21, 2009)

I think it depends, if they are breeding merle with merle it is a problem.
I think merle puppies are gorgeous, i know there can be health problems but if done properly by responsable breeders then it is less of a risk.
At least that is what i have heard anyway.
I dont know much about them cause we dont see many at all here.


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

Merle is only a colour and I find it hypocritical of the KC to ban it only in chihuahuas as it is seen in many breeds some of which do very well at crufts. the problems from the colour exist when breeding merle gene to merle gene. It is a colour not a disease.


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

i agree with both of the above its such a shame there is so much prejudice against them dosent stop me from loving them as my sweet romey is merle and the sweetest guy you will ever find i love merle
but im sure you will find a lot that dont each to their own i say


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## 17428 (Jul 10, 2009)

Merles are beautiful and if properly bred I dont see a problem.


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## Elle (May 4, 2010)

I understand the comment about it only being a colour, and that it is found 'naturally' in other breeds. But colour itself comes by way of a gene, and what the KC says is that the Merle gene itself, in Chihuahuas, carries with it the possibility of other serious health problems (such as blindness) in the breed.

If you study some of the papers on the genetics of it, you'll understand why there are grave doubts about its introduction into such a tiny dog.

I agree entirely that not every dog carrying the gene will show health problems itself, and that it can produce some very cute looking little dogs. But that's the crux of the matter. With the way that genetics works, it doesn't preclude the possibility of problems in a future generation of that dog. Personally, I believe that it should be left to the elite few breeders who have really studied genetics, to even consider it.

This is why so many of our little Chi breed are susceptible to LP, cryptorchidism and even hydrocephalus. Because there are too many breeders out there who just do not understand genetics, and they assume that because an animal is not 'showing' any defects, that therefore it must be healthy. A couple of breeders I have spoken to, had not even heard of recessive genes, which, quite frankly, shocked me.

Surely, until such a time that the Merle gene is proven to be safe, it is safer and better for the breed to avoid it?


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

there have been many, many, many heated discussions about Merles on this forum.
must we be subjected to yet another?


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## jessicao32 (Jul 21, 2010)

I believe merle go over size and have problems...I personality would never breed/own a merle...breeder/owners need to read about merles before they get one or breed them. MERLE to MERLE is NOT GOOD but some have done it....google is would be a good choice to find out info on the merle


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## Elle (May 4, 2010)

Jerry'sMom said:


> there have been many, many, many heated discussions about Merles on this forum.
> must we be subjected to yet another?


Sorry, Therese.

1) I did, in fact, specifically put 'UK' in the title, because it was referring to a UK breeder and it's the UK KC that bans it. I was just interested in what other UK Cpers thought about it. I am well aware that there are differences between the regulations of the KC and the AKC, not to mention the other countries that are represented on here.

2) I haven't seen any of these other discussions you mentioned, since I only joined several months ago, and it didn't even occur to me that it could turn into a heated discussion as a result of the basic comments I made. I can assure you it wasn't my intention at all, which is why I made my comments in the Chat section of CP and not the Breeding section! 

If I have offended people, I apologize sincerely. I will keep my observations to myself in future.


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

Elle said:


> Sorry, Therese.
> 
> If I have offended people, I apologize sincerely.


thank you


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## Aquarius (May 8, 2009)

Elle, no one should be offended, this is as valid a topic as any of the others on the forum .

It is no harm raising the topic for our new members particularly those who may be looking at pups and letting them know that there may be health implications with merle pups.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

I don't think there should be any topics that are "taboo" or not talked about here. This should be a place where we can all come and voice concerns or questions. Yes, the merle debate can be heated at times. That doesn't mean the issue should be hushed or pushed under the rug. Merle's are here and I believe they are here to stay. I think the topic of genetics is fascinating myself. 

Here's a few old threads discussing the issue ....

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chi-chat/47390-merles-studs-dams-uk-2.html

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chi-chat/46070-merle-has-health-issues.html

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chi-chat/40667-say-no-merle.html

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chi-chat/39624-merle.html

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chi...ere-more-health-problems-certain-colours.html


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## Elle (May 4, 2010)

Aquarius said:


> Elle, no one should be offended, this is as valid a topic as any of the others on the forum .
> 
> It is no harm raising the topic for our new members particularly those who may be looking at pups and letting them know that there may be health implications with merle pups.


I wasn't going to say any more in this thread, but thank you for letting me know that, Jane. I was worried I had committed a tacit sin by even mentioning the subject. I have to admit I am very glad I learned the facts about Merle before I bought Harry, otherwise I might even have been tempted. (I got my original info from a book out of the library as well as the KC website and then googled from there.) But as I said to Therese, I have no wish to be the instigator of any heated discussions here, nor do I wish to offend anyone... I'm just not that sort of woman, LOL!



Brodysmom said:


> I don't think there should be any topics that are "taboo" or not talked about here. This should be a place where we can all come and voice concerns or questions. Yes, the merle debate can be heated at times. That doesn't mean the issue should be hushed or pushed under the rug. Merle's are here and I believe they are here to stay. I think the topic of genetics is fascinating myself.


Well, I actually think a bit of sweeping under the rug has already happened this time, as I've had people contacting me via PM rather than in the thread, for fear of causing trouble. Sad.

As for genetics... yes, I find it fascinating too, Tracy. I originally got interested when I was quite young, because of my own hair colour. (Being a redhead is a result of both of my parents carrying the gene, which is a recessive one.)

Also, thanks for the links to old CP threads on the Merle issue... it seems I'm not the only one who is perturbed by breeders not mentioning the possible health implications.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Personally I think if a governing body so to speak ban something we should stick to the rules they wouldn't just ban something for the sake of it. I find genetics v intetesting always have done!!! Like you elle my hair colour was the only one (natural blonde) in generations of women on both sides of the family!


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

Elle said:


> I understand the comment about it only being a colour, and that it is found 'naturally' in other breeds. But colour itself comes by way of a gene, and what the KC says is that the Merle gene itself, in Chihuahuas, carries with it the possibility of other serious health problems (such as blindness) in the breed.
> 
> If you study some of the papers on the genetics of it, you'll understand why there are grave doubts about its introduction into such a tiny dog.
> 
> ...


the merle gene in every breed carries exactly the same risks. I have a white Great Dane that is from a harlequin to harlequin breeding which nearly always carry the merle gene she is deaf and as she is getting older is losing her sight also. Any merle to merle breeding in any breed of dog carries a huge risk. Having said that I wouldn't swap my dane for a pot of gold and she has always been a real easy dog ha ha and she sleeps like the dead.


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

Elle said:


> Sorry, Therese.
> 
> 1) I did, in fact, specifically put 'UK' in the title, because it was referring to a UK breeder and it's the UK KC that bans it. I was just interested in what other UK Cpers thought about it. I am well aware that there are differences between the regulations of the KC and the AKC, not to mention the other countries that are represented on here.
> 
> ...


no definately not offended I love merles all breeds and am happy to stand up and be counted x x


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## Guess (Sep 23, 2009)

CKC Just banned merle here in Canada, too. I have to admit, I was happy to see it done. There are too many problems that can occur with the colour, and lets face it, we all know all the BYB's and puppy mills will be the majority of the merle breeders. 

Merle in Chihuahua's is not the only breed it is disqualified in. While it is a beautiful colour - is just a pretty colour really worth ANY risk to a future pup? I know others will agree to disagree, mainly merle owners. Eeeek!! :3


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

Guess said:


> CKC Just banned merle here in Canada, too. I have to admit, I was happy to see it done. There are too many problems that can occur with the colour, and lets face it, we all know all the BYB's and puppy mills will be the majority of the merle breeders.
> 
> Merle in Chihuahua's is not the only breed it is disqualified in. While it is a beautiful colour - is just a pretty colour really worth ANY risk to a future pup? I know others will agree to disagree, mainly merle owners. Eeeek!! :3


What other breeds is it banned in.????????
i know that merle in great dane cannot be shown but they are registered as harlequin mismarks but can't think of any others ????????


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## lorri (Dec 5, 2009)

is a dapple Dachshund like a merle but just called a different name.I love the merles,in all breeds, over the years i have owned, a rough collie, a shetland sheep dog, a border collie cross,and a working beardie,all merles, and never had any problems with them, they were all pets and i never bred them,i think they are very pretty .


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## Guess (Sep 23, 2009)

I didn't know Merle danes were resgietered as Harlequin mismarks? I have never heard of that since they have a code for merle on registration papers. Maybe that's different in the UK.

It's not an accepted colour in Poms, APBTs, AmBulldogs, poodles, etc. They are not banned like the Chihuahua, but they are certainly not accepted.


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

Guess said:


> I didn't know Merle danes were resgietered as Harlequin mismarks? I have never heard of that since they have a code for merle on registration papers. Maybe that's different in the UK.
> 
> It's not an accepted colour in Poms, APBTs, AmBulldogs, poodles, etc. They are not banned like the Chihuahua, but they are certainly not accepted.



Mantle was also a harlequin mismark up until a couple of years ago when the KC decided to recognise them as a colour and allow them to be shown.


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## Guess (Sep 23, 2009)

The UK is so unbelievably different than north America! Nothing like that has ever occured here regarding Dane colours.


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

Guess said:


> The UK is so unbelievably different than north America! Nothing like that has ever occured here regarding Dane colours.


 you can say that again they seem to change the rules constantly !!!!!


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## LiMarChis (Mar 29, 2010)

No, you're not being picky. We never had merle in Chis until it was introduced by unethical breeders in the Western US who falsified AKC papers. It spread like wildfire because they were selling for over $5000 a pup when they first appearred. By the time CCA found out about it and began the fight, the original "parents" were unavailable for DNA testing. Very convenient. Anyway, most countries have gotten it right when revamping their Standard to exclude the color pattern as it's not inherant to the breed. Others have it safely, yes, but they've had it since inception and have limited colors, unlike Chis. With that said, the US still recognizes the pattern because we lost the vote by 6 to ban the color. I haven't done a lot of digging since this whole mess was finalized in the US, but I think we're about the only country that allows it. Since it orginated here, I guess it will always be the case. However, there's good reason that this pattern was banned by countries that wish to have pure pedigrees and healthy dogs.


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

Brodysmom said:


> I don't think there should be any topics that are "taboo" or not talked about here. This should be a place where we can all come and voice concerns or questions. Yes, the merle debate can be heated at times.


Very True. I apologize to Elle for my earlier comments. I've been having a rough
time lately, although that does not excuse my lapse in manners. (tiptoes out quietly... )


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