# is $400.00 to much for chi with no papers



## CHITheresa (Apr 30, 2011)

Is $400.00 male and 450.00 female with no papers to much to pay for chi, she claims because they have few colors in them they are. She calls it rare markings.


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

CHITheresa said:


> Is $400.00 male and 450.00 female with no papers to much to pay for chi, she claims because they have few colors in them they are. She calls it rare markings.


absolutely. I would run the other way from this breeder--overpriced and the
"rare markings" claim.

why buy a dog with no papers? I'm afraid if you did, we would be seeing a thread
posted a while later asking "is my dog really a Chi".

I recommend you continue your search. And, keep asking questions here before
you commit to buying a dog. It can save you a lot of heartache and unnecessary
expense. Good luck!


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## wild.irish.rose (Jul 7, 2011)

:hello1ersonally,i dont think so.a friend has a pregnant pomeranian w/a chi as the father n shes charging between 450 n 550.2 of my 5 chis were bought w/out papers-bailey was 700 n bleu was 700.bear has papers n was 750,mya w/papers was 650 n emily was 400.im in ct n there are only 3 breeders(not counting 'oops' breedings u c in the paper)that i know of out here-n ive looked-so,i would think it would depend on the area,too. not that it matters-im curious-what rare color r u talking about?


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

Sounds fishy to me!!!!


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## CHITheresa (Apr 30, 2011)

It my neighbors and we got into it bad. The puppy are 6 weeks old and she is already selling them I told her they are too young. my mistake i put in on her post on fb. She said I was trying to make her look bad and i was only trying to teach her. first she wanted 250.00 before they were born and know she cant pay taxes and wants 400 and 450. She said they are worth 1000 to 6000 rare marking, but no papers so that why she is selling cheaper. . She is feeding pedigree puppy I told her it is bad food and gave her the review. She said she has been breeding 20 years and she knows what she is doing. And i am not a christian because i made her look bad on fb. I am worried about puppies. She breeds her one chi all the time. 
here are her puppies


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## sammyp (Jun 14, 2011)

the reason people breed is to keep the pedigree in dogs and its people like that that will make the breed die out. That poor mummy dog at a max in my opinion you should only breed a dog 2 times thats what my breeder does and she doesnt sell the chi on once its breeded she gets her spade and keeps her thats why she has like 8 chis. 
This woman has done it for the money and it makes me so mad !!!!!!!!
The puppies are really cute but im not being nasty but there are better looking chis on this website that cost only a little more than 450
You did the right thing by posting on her fb. Hopfuly after this litter she will STOP
sorry for going into one but if you breed chis you really have too no what your doing, you have to no what to feed them. and you have to know how to look after them
you did what you could well done


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

sammyp said:


> the reason people breed is to keep the pedigree in dogs and its people like that that will make the breed die out. That poor mummy dog at a max in my opinion you should only breed a dog 2 times thats what my breeder does and she doesnt sell the chi on once its breeded she gets her spade and keeps her thats why she has like 8 chis.
> This woman has done it for the money and it makes me so mad !!!!!!!!
> The puppies are really cute but im not being nasty but there are better looking chis on this website that cost only a little more than 450
> You did the right thing by posting on her fb. Hopfuly after this litter she will STOP
> ...



Just so you know, it is fairly common and considered completely responsible and acceptable to breed a female 4-6 times from the ages of 1.5 - 5 years of age. 

No one could afford dogs and the breeds would just die out if quality momma dogs could only have 2 litters!


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## sammyp (Jun 14, 2011)

flippedstars said:


> Just so you know, it is fairly common and considered completely responsible and acceptable to breed a female 4-6 times from the ages of 1.5 - 5 years of age.
> 
> No one could afford dogs and the breeds would just die out if quality momma dogs could only have 2 litters!


ow yer i totaly agree but i rescued a bullmastive years ago who had been breed 5 times and my vet told me that a reasonbal amout of times is 3.
After we got my bullmastive she had problem after problem with her insides and only towards the end of her life did her body get back to norma. So i belive the more you breed your dog the more chance of problems you get in there later life.
some dogs can have 6 litters and be fine.
but my breeder says the older the dog gets the more chance you have of problems.


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## sammyp (Jun 14, 2011)

sammyp said:


> ow yer i totaly agree but i rescued a bullmastive years ago who had been breed 5 times and my vet told me that a reasonbal amout of times is 3.
> After we got my bullmastive she had problem after problem with her insides and only towards the end of her life did her body get back to norma. So i belive the more you breed your dog the more chance of problems you get in there later life.
> some dogs can have 6 litters and be fine.
> but my breeder says the older the dog gets the more chance you have of problems.


hope that message didnt seem snoty because i didnt mean it to be. 
s:sad5:sorry


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## CoverTune (Jul 1, 2011)

I don't see anything "rare" about those pups. I personally wouldn't pay that much.


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## CHITheresa (Apr 30, 2011)

Her momma chi is 8 years old


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## sammyp (Jun 14, 2011)

she not a young dog. you did the right thing well done.
have to admit doe them pups are really cute x


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## wild.irish.rose (Jul 7, 2011)

:hello1:imho,mama is too old to still b breeding at 7yrs.also,whats so rare about choc n white pups?i mean,theyre really,really cute but def not rare.


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## LittleHead (May 20, 2004)

Whats her FB, let me at her. Nothing rare about those puppies.


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## sammyp (Jun 14, 2011)

LittleHead said:


> Whats her FB, let me at her. Nothing rare about those puppies.


you go girl :hello1:


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## CHITheresa (Apr 30, 2011)

I am trying to get her to join here so we can get her right. Teach her lol. She wont come.


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

I think 8 years old is considered too old for breeding, I may be wrong though. I wouldn't buy one of the puppies..


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

LittleHead said:


> Whats her FB, let me at her. Nothing rare about those puppies.


:hello1: :hello1: :hello1:


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Those are standard, run of the mill chi puppies. They will be on the bigger size as well if that matters. Nothing rare about the color. I would RUN the other way. But yeah, I know it's hard when it's your neighbor and you are trying to educate and she is resisting. Breeding pups to pay taxes?! UGH. Unfortunately the world is FULL of backyard breeders such as her.


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## Gizmo's mom (Aug 20, 2011)

My chi is un papered and I paid 350 for him. I don't think that is a bad price.


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## Gingersmom (Mar 12, 2009)

flippedstars said:


> Just so you know, it is fairly common and considered completely responsible and acceptable to breed a female 4-6 times from the ages of 1.5 - 5 years of age.
> 
> No one could afford dogs and the breeds would just die out if quality momma dogs could only have 2 litters!


Just to let YOU know IMHO absolute rubbish!


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## applewood (May 8, 2011)

I think it all depends.. $400 is not a lot, if the parents are a good representation of the breed, and its purebred. 
Heck, look at those mixed breeds that are selling for $1000.

As far as 'rare' colors, there is no such thing.

I want to know this chicks FB page too. My FB page is applewood chihuahuas, if anyone wants to FB me


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## tinkybaby (Aug 29, 2011)

applewood said:


> I think it all depends.. $400 is not a lot, if the parents are a good representation of the breed, and its purebred.
> Heck, look at those mixed breeds that are selling for $1000.
> 
> As far as 'rare' colors, there is no such thing.
> ...


tried to fb you nothing came up


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## mooberry (Jan 31, 2011)

I paid 1000$ for Bijoux and she doesn't have papers due to her colouring. 

I was very worried when I went to look at her that I would have to run the other way from a byb BUT I was pleasantly surprized. She was 500$ cheaper than her standard BECAUSE she didn't have papers and Bijoux IS a 'rare' -but no longer standard- colour in Canada.

It is possible to find a chi w/o papers that is from a proper breeder. Then again they didn't advertise her as a rare colour blah blah i'm preaching to the choir here.


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## OurCheekyChihuahuas (Nov 18, 2009)

They look like Patterdales to me. Nothing rare about those to be fair! The colour isnt rare, only in the sense its rare to see to standard Chocolate representatives of the breed.


I agree with Kristi. 4-6 litters isnt a lot if done properly theres nothing wrong with breeding your girl if shes in good health. Age isnt important its more health, but obv if the dams like 13 then yes thats wrong!


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## tinkybaby (Aug 29, 2011)

I paid $500 for Tink & she doesn't have any papers. I guess to me it's all about circumstances. If I had gone to a breeder from the paper and it was a really bad situation and I wasn't sure of health I guess $500 would seem like a lot to me. However, I got her from a very clean place so it seemed like a good deal, plus she had first shots and a vet check included.


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

Honestly I think probably 90% of the members on here probably got their chi's from a backyard breeder....

If the parents weren't registered, being shown or proven champions, and they didn't come with a spay/neuter contract... then yes it came from a BYB. 
They could've been the nicest, cleanest, sweetest people with beloved pets who've never been in a kennel... could've had vet checks since the day they were born... could've been raised on premium quality food, socialized, etc... but they are STILL backyard breeders. All one has to do in order to fall into the BYB category is NOT SHOW; and not PROVE their dogs are to standard and bettering the breed. They can do EVERYTHING else right... but if the dogs aren't Champions, they're a BYB.

The saddest part, that even a reputable breeder will sell it's PET puppies to approved homes for CHEAPER than most of the BYB's!! Because the show breeders aren't looking to make money...

I'll be the first to admit that not one of my dogs came from a reputable breeder. And also the first to admit that genuine people like me are the sadly the reason that BYB's are still in business. All I can do now is hug and love my poorly bred pets; take pride in the fact that none will ever be bred.. and try to educate others as best I can.


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

YES!!
My girls are all from AKC breeders (one better than the other two) and were $400, $450 and $500. I have Limited rights on one and Full on the others (although I should never have been given Full rights on either).
I'd expect to pay MUCH less from a BYB or a pup that came with any registration (ACA, APRI or Continental Kennel Club) other than AKC. 
I would never buy from a BYB. Ever.


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## roughhouse (Mar 1, 2009)

KittynKahlua said:


> Honestly I think probably 90% of the members on here probably got their chi's from a backyard breeder....
> 
> If the parents weren't registered, being shown or proven champions, and they didn't come with a spay/neuter contract... then yes it came from a BYB.
> They could've been the nicest, cleanest, sweetest people with beloved pets who've never been in a kennel... could've had vet checks since the day they were born... could've been raised on premium quality food, socialized, etc... but they are STILL backyard breeders. All one has to do in order to fall into the BYB category is NOT SHOW; and not PROVE their dogs are to standard and bettering the breed. They can do EVERYTHING else right... but if the dogs aren't Champions, they're a BYB.
> ...


I'm sorry but I think there are more than two categories of breeders. I think that there is a huge difference between a hobby breeder and a back yard breeder. It is pretty black and white to say that there are only show breeders and disreputable breeders. In a companion breed such as chihuahaus I think there is a lot of room for companion bred dogs from good hobby breeders who health test and put a ton of work into their hobby. There may not be the same room in other breeds and no doubt there are a lot of back yard bred chihuahuas but to call everyone who breeds but doesn't show a back yard breeder is rather harsh. 

My Ellie's breeder doesn't show but she knows more about her breed than most people who do show. She has made her life about her dogs. Her dogs are OFA certified and CERFed. They are temperament tested and some have their CGC. One is actually a PTSD service dog. They are gorgeous dogs and her screening process for new homes is very detailed including calling references and vets. She sells on spay/neuter agreements and will take any puppy that she has bred back into her home at any time if needed. She has been in the breed for 10 years and still spends a good deal of time doing more research and learning everything she can. Her dogs are part of her family and she spends more on vet care than she could ever make on puppies. She recently took in two rescues who were bred on their first heat. She raised the puppies and then placed the mommies and puppies in pet homes. I would never be able to consider her a disreputable, irresponsible breeder simply because she doesn't show. 

The world is not so black and white.


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

I agree with this sentence in Kitty's post:
_If the parents weren't registered, being shown or proven champions, and they didn't come with a spay/neuter contract... then yes it came from a BYB. _

The shown part was just one consideration. Not that they had to be shown. The registered, spay/neuter contract, etc. is what separates a "hobby" breeder from a BYB to me. 

I am very surprised when I read that people paid a huge amount for an unregistered pet becasue they were sold a bill of goods on how "rare" the color is or other nonsense.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Gingersmom said:


> Just to let YOU know IMHO absolute rubbish!


If you are a BYB breeder not showing, and petting adult bitches out for high prices, maybe it would be do-able...what I said is NOT rubbish and is 100% considered standard and acceptable in show circles. Do you show? Or just breed...because I have a problem with people that 'just breed'.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Most QUALITY bitches, of QUALITY to be bred, will be between $1500 and $3000. They will have on average 2-3 puppies per litter if they are of the appropriate quality to breed. If she only has 2 litters, and let's just say 6 sellable pups total...that are then only sold for $500 each, that barely pays for the bitch HERSELF, not withstanding any cost of showing the bitch, medical costs inferred in the breedings, and we are assuming she free-whelped...where most QUALITY bitches will need at LEAST 1 c-section during her breeding life for whatever reason which can easily run you $1000-$1500. 

Now, you can do it TOTALLY wrong, from your back yard, without showing, with larger bitches, and inadequate studs, with no knowledge of lines or care for bettering the breed, and yeah, you probably COULD make money off of 2 litters. But I think that's the damn wrong way to do it.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

kittynkahlua said:


> honestly i think probably 90% of the members on here probably got their chi's from a backyard breeder....
> 
> If the parents weren't registered, being shown or proven champions, and they didn't come with a spay/neuter contract... Then yes it came from a byb.
> They could've been the nicest, cleanest, sweetest people with beloved pets who've never been in a kennel... Could've had vet checks since the day they were born... Could've been raised on premium quality food, socialized, etc... But they are still backyard breeders. All one has to do in order to fall into the byb category is not show; and not prove their dogs are to standard and bettering the breed. They can do everything else right... But if the dogs aren't champions, they're a byb.
> ...


well said.


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## Chi-Love (Sep 4, 2011)

Is there not such thing as someone who breeds dogs for pets? One that breeds two dogs, with awesome temperments, to be good family dogs?

I didn't get Czar ($500 with a 'puppy starter' - food, "manual," and such) from a breeder who shows her Chihuahuas. She's an older lady who breeds for pets. Does this classify her as a backyard breeder? I don't believe she had a spay/neuter contract but I am most definitely going to neuter Czar regardless - I'd never think about breeding him because I have no need to - all my dogs are spayed and neutered.

I do know that on her website, whenever someone said they were thinking of breeding their female Chihuahua that they bought from her, she always turned them in the other direction, stating that it's extremely expensive if you're doing it right and that Chis often need c-sections. The owner of the female Chi was shocked to hear such a thing and agreed that it was better not to breed her.

Czar came with his shots up to date, vet checked, etc. and I did get a paper stating his parents, color, date of birth, etc. but I know absolutely nothing about papers to be honest... and I don't rely on them due to reading multiple times that almost any dog can be registered for AKC or CKC or whatever as long as their parents were.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Pets - good quality pets, are a result of a show breeding program. If a breeder DOESN'T want to show, but wants to truly be producing high quality puppies, they need to BUY from show breeders and know and understand the lines. There is such a thing as a hobby breeder - one very interested in lines, pedigrees, etc. but they truly strive to have the best dog possible to breed from. Just breeding for pets? Plenty of 'pets' in shelters NEED homes or they will be put down. The day that shelters close their doors is the day that breeding 'just for pets' will be okay...but that won't ever happen.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

SHOW breeders aren't health testing like they should...Pet breeders pretty much don't even know what it means to health test. A vet checks a dog entirely differently when they are legally liable and obligated to search for a problem's existence via a legally binding form that must be submitted to an organization, than when they do a quick cursory "yep he's healthy" check, TRUST me. I have seen this true of many vets, not just my main one.


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## Chi-Love (Sep 4, 2011)

I understand. I was going to adopt an adult Chihuahua from my shelter but I live in such a small town that Chihuahuas - believe it or not - aren't very common in them. Most people tend to keep their Chihuahuas here and not surrender them.

Although, I would have been waiting ten years if I was to find a Chihuahua in my shelter anyway, I'm so picky about the dog I get. I wanted a male, friendly, purebred (this is probably due to the fact that the rest of my dogs are mutts), longhaired Chihuahua. It would honestly take a long time for me to find one of that description here.

Also, the closest breeder charged $800 to sell their puppies as pets and they were 8 hours away. I'd also have to pay for the puppy to be flown here and I really don't think it's fair to a puppy to be put on a plane (in my opinion). I looked for puppies of show-quality for a long time and didn't find any prices that were low enough that I'd even consider spending money for having a puppy flown to me. I'm also not comfortable with not meeting a puppy before I take him home.

Czar's breeder was the closest (2 hours away) and most reliable in my area... which goes to show what little quality breeding is done where I live, I guess.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

I don't know a single 'good quality' pet breed that...

-IS NOT using dogs with bad bites (even some show breeders do this, which I totally do not agree with!)

-IS actually health testing and registering the results with the CERF & OFA foundations.

-IS getting more than just 'their' opinion on the dog.

-IS attempting to produce a dog that follows after the Chihuahua Club of America's 'blueprint' for what a chihuahua should be.


The list could go on for awhile but generalizations are always 'tough'...I think I've hit the 'major' points, though.

Bottom line is no matter how much a breeder appears to love and adore and care for his or her dogs, it isn't ethical or 'right' to be breeding just to breed.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Chi-Love said:


> I understand. I was going to adopt an adult Chihuahua from my shelter but I live in such a small town that Chihuahuas - believe it or not - aren't very common in them. Most people tend to keep their Chihuahuas here and not surrender them.
> 
> Although, I would have been waiting ten years if I was to find a Chihuahua in my shelter anyway, I'm so picky about the dog I get. I wanted a male, friendly, purebred (this is probably due to the fact that the rest of my dogs are mutts), longhaired Chihuahua. It would honestly take a long time for me to find one of that description here.
> 
> ...


A lot of people find themselves in your shoes, honestly there are nowhere near enough correctly bred dogs out there 'to go around'...the few breeders that are doing it right usually have really long waiting lists...it is VERY VERY expensive to 'do it right' and especially to start out doing it right. But I do think there ARE people out there who would be just as happy with a shelter pup as they would with a semi-purebred pup that only somewhat resembles the breed. I am all for having a wonderful purebred dog that is a good, sound, healthy example of the breed...I haven't ever rescued a dog as its not really my thing...

The breeders that really bother me though are mostly the ones that are just breeding here and there, willy nilly, to anything that has a testicles and will 'do the job'. The ones that greedily breed to make a LOT of money or the ones that breed without regard to health and even the safety of their own animals. I hate seeing on here when people have bred their pet because they wanted a litter from her...

There is a difference between a 'decent' back yard breeder and a full on rotten one, of course...but I think that because there is so much crap breeding going on a higher standard has to be demanded overall.


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

flippedstars said:


> A lot of people find themselves in your shoes, honestly there are nowhere near enough correctly bred dogs out there 'to go around'...the few breeders that are doing it right usually have really long waiting lists...it is VERY VERY expensive to 'do it right' and especially to start out doing it right.


I gotta say, I wouldn't have so much problem with BYB's if I found one who DID do all health tests, and DID sell all their dogs on speuter contracts. I truly wouldn't. But I just don't see it happening; because it costs money to do those things. (Get ready to kill me here) I wouldn't even care so much if people took pointed show dogs; like a pom and a chi; and actually mixed them to make those stupid designer dogs; and also sold them on spay neuter contracts. Why you ask? Because sadly, there are a lot of genuine caring people who for whatever personal reason "want" one of these mixes and want a puppy as opposed to shelter. And honestly; if people had the opportunity to buy them from reputable people, there wouldn't be so much "demand" for a BYB to make them.. does that make sense? Like, if there actually WAS responsible "Pet" breeders that only let their dogs off on spay neuter contracts, ((and for lower prices than the ridiculous $1000's you see on a yorkie-poo)); that would satisfy the people who just have that preference. Not saying they 'should' prefer these mixes; but fact is some people when they have their heart set they are GOING to get it. And I'd rather see it go to support someone who's also showing those parents than to hillbilly joe who's got a barn out back filled with hundreds of poor quality. dogs. Do I actually see this happening ever? No, but in an ideal world, I think it'd be a good solution. People will forever want dogs and puppies that may be mixes and don't necessarily fit a standard. They may want a purebred but don't want to wait years to find a reputable show breeder who will add them to their waiting list. And those people; whether it is right or wrong; are GOING to go out and find those dogs somewhere. People like hearing that a dog has "papers" who rarely even understand what "papers" are!! A paper is just that, a piece of PAPER... with a documented family tree. Doesn't mean that the dogs were actually quality; unless it's an AKC paper that has generations of Champions on it. The demand is going to be there; and like you said there are not enough correctly bred ones to go around. So if there were some breeders out there who actually OWN show stock, have a few pets that they DID breed; but still hold to the *same health standard* with testing, requiring speuter, screening homes, requiring they take the dog back at any point, etc... and although its not profitable; would LET these dogs go for rock bottom prices.... it would put the average backyard breeder out of business. There actually WOULD be enough of these dogs to go around; except unlike the average Pet dog; these would have excellent health, free of genetic faults, and a guaranteed forever home with the breeder.... shelters would sit empty. AND they would never be able to used to contribute to the overpopulation because they'd be spayed or neutered. *Deep sigh* Someday perhaps.


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## OurCheekyChihuahuas (Nov 18, 2009)

flippedstars said:


> I don't know a single 'good quality' pet breed that...
> 
> -IS NOT using dogs with bad bites (even some show breeders do this, which I totally do not agree with!)
> 
> ...


Well imo thats rubbish. Because you dont show at CHAMPIONSHIP KENNEL CLUB standard does not make you a BYB. Ive shown at fun shows and been placed well. You cannot say thats not important because it still takes time and effort

and as for the bite comment... thats cack too! Ive never bred a bitch or stud from which have bad muzzles and not EVERYONE does.

this does not class you as a BYB imo

To become a so called "Accredited Breeder" it takes around £80 and an application form it doesn't prove naff all! i refuse to do it! Ive had great examples of the breed, i don't see why i should show to prove to everyone else what they're capable of, when i know myself.
People are more than welcome to see my dogs, if thats not what theyre looking for then never mind. 
Just because some one breeds does not make aBYB. unlike breeding pets, agreed with that subject that shouldnt be done



KittynKahlua said:


> Honestly I think probably 90% of the members on here probably got their chi's from a backyard breeder....
> 
> If the parents weren't registered, being shown or proven champions, and they didn't come with a spay/neuter contract... then yes it came from a BYB.
> They could've been the nicest, cleanest, sweetest people with beloved pets who've never been in a kennel... could've had vet checks since the day they were born... could've been raised on premium quality food, socialized, etc... but they are STILL backyard breeders. All one has to do in order to fall into the BYB category is NOT SHOW; and not PROVE their dogs are to standard and bettering the breed. They can do EVERYTHING else right... but if the dogs aren't Champions, they're a BYB.
> ...


Also rubbish, i know im not the only one who has this opinion as not everyone will post up because it causes arguments! 

Just because you go to see a puppy does not mean you have to buy it! If you dont like what you see then dont

Simple

Im sick of reading these kind of comments, ive never had anything wrong with my litters.

except little Bo. Who i then got called all the names and bitches under the sun. He was health checked by my vet in my home before he left. If i knew about the condition with his eyelashes he wouldn't have left me, i would have had the operations done myself and kept him. I wouldn't let anyone have him because of how small he was. Rachel had him as i felt she could cope with a puppy his size. Im sorry but i consider her to be a friend. I dont charge expensive amounts, and to clear up this subject, she hasn't even paid for him yet. I offered to pay vet bills when she told me what was wrong with him, she said no and i refused payments from her until she had him settled and sorted.

Off subject but i had to get that opinion out.


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## Kurukulla (Sep 26, 2011)

OurCheekyChihuahuas said:


> Well imo thats rubbish. Because you dont show at CHAMPIONSHIP KENNEL CLUB standard does not make you a BYB. Ive shown at fun shows and been placed well. You cannot say thats not important because it still takes time and effort
> 
> and as for the bite comment... thats cack too! Ive never bred a bitch or stud from which have bad muzzles and not EVERYONE does.
> 
> ...


You've never bred a dog to standard. Your dog tiny had an endorsement on
His pedigree so his pups weren't registered. Your puppies weren't registered.

Bo had inverted eyelids which you didn't notice although you had him for 12 weeks. He was also a crypto-orchid as was his brother this is hereditary. Their sire is still at stud on Pets4homes.

Both Billy and tallulah have luxating patella which is also hereditary.

Cross coating isn't allowed in the uk. 
Bracken and Billy were also full of worms oh and none were vaccinated. Bracken and bo were also covered in flea bites and clearly NOT socialised. Brackens owner is still having troubles at 18
Months old with his toilet training his leg also shattered because of him
Jumping which the vet said was caused by poor nutrition whilst mother was in whelp and cost nearly £4k to fix!!!

Showing and companion level is nothing they are not judged on confirmation to standard.

Maybe you are delusional or lying idk but u would say two crytoorchids, 2 luxating patellas, a shattered leg, inverted eyelids, worms and flea bites is no problems then wow...


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Kurukulla said:


> You've never bred a dog to standard. Your dog tiny had an endorsement on
> His pedigree so his pups weren't registered. Your puppies weren't registered.
> 
> Bo had inverted eyelids which you didn't notice although you had him for 12 weeks. He was also a crypto-orchid as was his brother this is hereditary. Their sire is still at stud on Pets4homes.
> ...


And these are only the dogs KNOWN about...its hard to imagine they are the exceptions not the rule.


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

I respect your opinion OurCheekyChihuahuas and I really hope you can answer some questions for me. This is not to interrogate YOU; this is for my OWN understanding. I tried asking these same questions to someone else on a previous thread and it got locked.

All I want to know and understand; is if you are not showing, how do you know that your dogs are to standard and improving the breed? That's what showing is for; to compare dogs; so that they can select the "best of the best." Not just okay dogs, not dogs that are just good; but dogs that in comparison to the rest of the stock; fit the standard the MOST and are likely to improve the breeds quality. *Any person can look at their dog, or have a few other breed experts look at their dog; and agree that Yes your dog/s are to standard. *But isn't the PURPOSE of breeding to actually *improve* the breed? _And without seeing exactly how your dogs compare to all the others around you; how do YOU know that your dogs are in fact improving the breed?_

You might have a perfect answer and if so that's great, that's what I'm trying to do, I want to understand; not judge people. As I've said before some BYB's are the nicest people in the world!! Thats why I've tried to ask questions; not to be accusational but to help ME understand what your reasoning is for breeding. I don't know anything about your breeding practices... first and foremost I find what's most important to be health, even before standard. _Do you perform genetic health tests like CERF and OFA to ensure those things don't get passed on? And if you don't; I simply want to know why, and HOW you are able to ensure that some of these genetic things that *may not* be physically apparent in your breeding stock, don't get passed on._

Again I'm just asking these things to help learn. I get that if someone doesn't like your dogs that they can just decide not to buy a puppy from you. _I just want to grasp what the purpose is of breeding at all, if you are not improving the breed and its health one way or another...?_

I tend to ramble, sorry. I went back and actually italicized the actual questions I have; that I have been unable to get a straight answer from on other threads. Thanks!


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## OurCheekyChihuahuas (Nov 18, 2009)

People.. You're petty i cant even be asked to bitch and whinge over this. I was NEVER INFORMED that either Billy or Tulula had this. 

These are the known cases? Quite frankly you take the piss. Go pick on someone who's bang breeding pet dogs! 

Sarah i no longer own TINY! He was restricted as the women wouldn't remove them who bred him. She used him for stud herself.


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

I don't think I'm being petty... =( I just have 3 genuine questions up above that I want answered *for myself*; so that *I* can understand. It seems like these have always been avoided before (not by you, but just in the past whenever I ask them on here) and I don't know if its deliberate because they don't want to answer, or just because people don't see them. I am honestly not trying to be offensive at all. I just want to know...


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

KittynKahlua said:


> I don't think I'm being petty... =( I just have 3 genuine questions up above that I want answered *for myself*; so that *I* can understand. It seems like these have always been avoided before (not by you, but just in the past whenever I ask them on here) and I don't know if its deliberate because they don't want to answer, or just because people don't see them. I am honestly not trying to be offensive at all. I just want to know...


I think that you are asking valid questions as well:coolwink:


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## Kurukulla (Sep 26, 2011)

The fact is YOU still bred him.. Your dogs weren't to standard far from it. He was endorsed for a reason!!!! 

Tullulahs mum mentioned it today and has previously and Rachel posted on here years ago when Billy was diagnosed... If that's not hereditary then what is???? 

Best thing you did was sell your chihuahuas stop You from damaging the breed anymore. 

Truth hurts doesn't it??


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

I just hope she has a chance to answer my questions before this thread gets locked too... =( I too feel they are valid...


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## Kurukulla (Sep 26, 2011)

KittynKahlua said:


> I just hope she has a chance to answer my questions before this thread gets locked too... =( I too feel they are valid...


They are


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

Those of us who are trying to learn, it appears, will only get straight answers from those who are breeding properly. That is my conclusion after the events of the last couple of days.
Even as a serious amateur (and while my girls are registered, they are just pets), I know that breeding is to create dogs that improve upon the breed and are bred according to breed standards. For show, breeding and for pet. 
I am sorry if I offend anyone (because this will) but BYB's to me are breeders who, despite knowing that their dogs are non-breed standard and unregistered, breed and sell them anyway. They may be lovely people who keep clean homes and love their dogs but that does not change the facts. 
Perhaps it is only because I am new to this but it seems rather simple. I am perplexed how it is arguable.


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

KittynKahlua said:


> I just hope she has a chance to answer my questions before this thread gets locked too... =( I too feel they are valid...


I really would like to see them answered too, as I have the same questions. You are not being rude at all, so I do not see why your questions are ignored every time.


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## Lollipopsmama (Oct 17, 2011)

Eeks, I just joined here and I cannot understand why there seems to be so much venom directed to other people here! I've been reading on a few boards lately and it seems this animosity is all over the place!

To the original poster, no 400.00 is not too much for a dog without registration depending on where you live


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## CHITheresa (Apr 30, 2011)

Well around here it too high, we live in remote northern area with no job no money. She cant sell them and just lowered the price to $250.00, that good price I feel, they are very cute..


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## Lollipopsmama (Oct 17, 2011)

Well there you go!  good luck with your new puppy!


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## PabzOr (Oct 17, 2011)

I would say it all depends on how much money you have at the time and how much you value a companion. We paid 500 for our boy who does not have papers, and to be honest I am not even sure if he is 100% chihuahua. We get speculation everywhere we go from him being full chi, to half chi half pom, half pappilon. And I don't even care. I love him to death he is worth way more then 500 in my eyes. I wouldn't sell him for a million.


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## Lollipopsmama (Oct 17, 2011)

PabzOr said:


> I would say it all depends on how much money you have at the time and how much you value a companion. We paid 500 for our boy who does not have papers, and to be honest I am not even sure if he is 100% chihuahua. We get speculation everywhere we go from him being full chi, to half chi half pom, half pappilon. And I don't even care. I love him to death he is worth way more then 500 in my eyes. I wouldn't sell him for a million.


I just wanted to say that you have a wonderful attitude! your dog is blessed to have you as an owner. :hello1:
All my dogs are purebred, but long coats are not common where I live so I am always asked if they are poms, chins or paps.


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