# uh oh leg ouchy



## cherper (May 8, 2009)

Leila hurt her leg tonight.  She was jumping up at me, I was standing eating a piece of fudge and she was doing her usual jumping up at my leg to get my attention. Then she cried and crawled under the desk. She is walking with the back leg pulled up slightly.  She is in her snuggle sack sleeping now, but I am worried. should i just check her in the morning? Or should i be examining it? I dont' see how she could've hurt it too bad, she jumps CONSTANTLY!!! Help!


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## ExoticChis (Jun 20, 2010)

how is she doing now?
I wouldnt panic 
1st have a good look at it for swelling ETC


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

well when she got up this morning she's still pullin that back leg up. Sometimes she walks with it down, and sometimes not. And when she runs she has it pulled up. I felt her leg and compared with the other, i didn't notice anything.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Cheryl...can you run your hand down from the very top of her leg, and stop at the very first hint of any bump? That's her knee. Feel it gently and see if you can feel a little round dot, that's her knee cap. You will need someone to hold her while you do this. Once you find the little dot that is her knee, see if it is moving / popping out to either side. It will wiggle a little bit in its groove but it should not be popping out. I highly doubt it's her knee as I know her breeder tests for that, but if you can manage to locate it and check that would be good.

Double check her paw/paw pads, & the furry skin between the pads. Make sure that there is nothing stuck or jammed in here. 

Then apply gentle pressure all over her leg, but firm enough that if she is in pain somewhere, you may be able to find out. This is easiest to do while she is laying on her side in your lap. You will want to do this to both sides of her leg as well as her paw on the leg in question. After you finish applying gentle pressure, if there still is no sign of discomfort, gently move the leg up and down 5-10 times by holding her body up and only allowing her to put weight on that foot on your hand. Listen/feel closely for any popping or note if she yelps whether the leg is distended or not.

If you can pinpoint what is hurting her it will be easier to figure out what's going on


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## Chico's Mum (Sep 9, 2008)

What I would do is since there is no swelling hold her legs not just tach it but hold it not to hard tho and see how she reacts. If its pain she will scream if nothing than she is fine and Just loving the attention you are giving her so she is pretending to be still hurt. (They do that too lol) 

But if she is hurt or your worried take her to the vet.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

If she won't put weight on it when she's running I would get it checked. Her knee cap could have popped out and need putting in if she jumps a lot you should try to put a stop to it! How is she today? If she's still struggling I'd take her to the vet and hope for the best


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## Dragonfly (Jun 6, 2010)

Aw poor little Leila! How is she doing this morning? I hope she's doing better bless her little heart!


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

I checked her legs good last night. I felt both knees and just everything for an abnormality. Both knees and legs feel the same. The one doesn't feel any diff than the other. So i'm puzzled. She uses it and then she doesnt'.


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## Dragonfly (Jun 6, 2010)

Maybe it's still sore. Does Miss Leila seem like she's in any pain when she does put it up or walk on it?


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

Well, she never makes any sounds. And she didnt' make any when i was applying a little pressure last night either. I'm puzzled


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

If she's favouring it, it means she is in pain. Lotus trod on something the otherday and was limping about

2 days post possibly injury I'd be inclined to take her to a vet - daisy has a loose knee cap and I can't feel it but my vet can honestly I'd get her checked out if she's not using it all the time that gives me reason to worey


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## catz4m8z (Aug 28, 2008)

I would proabably get it checked out by a vet TBH. When Adam hurt his leg it was just a strain that needed rest. Trouble was every time it got better he would jump about and make it hurt again! Took three times as long to heal.


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## FireFox (Jun 4, 2009)

How is Leila doing? 
I wouldn't suggest you to move her kneecap around yourself, you can very easily do more damage to it, even vets have to be careful with it, very delicate area.

Hope she is well and no more limping


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

she is still limping. I don't understand it. She goes out to potty and puts her weight right on it and has the other leg up. Strange!
I am going to take her in to the vet this week as soon as i can.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Cheryl what did the vet say??


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Yes dying to know! how is Miss Leila!


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## Dragonfly (Jun 6, 2010)

Hope the vet could figure out what happened to little Leila's leg! Hope she's feeling better!


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## KayC (May 3, 2005)

Any news, I hope she got to the vet soon. The sooner the knee cap gets put back in the better.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Any updates on Leila??


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

sorry to leave you hanging. I"ve been ridiculously busy as i'm sure you all have as well.
Leila is still holding her leg up, and no she hasn't been to the vets. My vet is out until Monday. Which really sucks. And I dont' really want to take her to another vets, i dont' really trust any others. I dont' know what to do. 
She never whines or makes a peep so i dont' really feel like she is in pain. its weird, she is still running and jumping off the furniture all the time. I"ve been keeping her in her pen a lot more lately to prevent it.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

I hope you can figure it out soon!
Do you have any e vets around? or ask her breeder! 
Dogs are so good at hiding pain sometimes we just don't know.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Cheryl dogs don't always make noise when they are in pain holding her leg up is a sign that she is in pain.

Please get her to a vet dogs heal way quicker than we do if it's damaged and it starts to heal it can heal funny and will cause her lots of pain


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## Rose of Love (Dec 1, 2010)

i hope she will get better soon!


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

she has finally got an appt fri at 8 am. She does seem better though.
My vet was out of town for his daughters wedding. He is back this week but doesn't work everyday and backed up now hence the waiting until friday. I chose not to take her to another vet. If she had seemed distressed then i would have. But I wouldn't want any one else doing a procedure on her if that is necessary, other than my vet so seeing someone else would've been non productive. I will be very suprised if her knee has popped out. She is still playing running and jumping like normal. I will post again on fri. with a full report.


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## Dragonfly (Jun 6, 2010)

cherper said:


> she has finally got an appt fri at 8 am. She does seem better though.
> My vet was out of town for his daughters wedding. He is back this week but doesn't work everyday and backed up now hence the waiting until friday. I chose not to take her to another vet. If she had seemed distressed then i would have. But I wouldn't want any one else doing a procedure on her if that is necessary, other than my vet so seeing someone else would've been non productive. I will be very suprised if her knee has popped out. She is still playing running and jumping like normal. I will post again on fri. with a full report.


Good luck on Friday little Leila!!! Hope your wittle knee feels better sweetie!


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

Well we're back. Her kneecap was popped out.  He said now that it's done it , it will keep on doing it. Which i hated to hear. He said if i decide to get surgery done on it, I can do it any time. Or she can live fine with it and it won't necessarily cause any problems. He said they can sometimes learn to move their leg and get it back in. He said it's just going in and out.
On a good note, her weight was 5 lb and 2 oz. He said he didn't think i should have her lose anymore. Said she looked fine!


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

I'm sorry that she has a luxating patella. Bummer. Doesn't your breeder guarantee against this? I would definitely contact her breeder and go from there. Your contract should specify the terms of sale for hereditary disease such as LP.


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

The breeder does testing of his stock. But this is what it reads on their site "While we realize that having our dogs tested does not guarantee they do not carry the genetics to produce these health issues, we will remove any dog from our program that is found to produce these problems. We are striving to breed puppies that are within the standard, have great personalities and minimal hereditary defects."
I will let him know and I do know he no longer has leila's mom. She was 5 i think so too old to breed now i guess.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Do you know what grade the vet put the LP at? Is she limping or holding the leg up alot? You can limp her along (no pun intended) with a therapeutic dose of glucosamine/chondroitin but she may need surgery in the future. Especially if she has any pain or discomfort or the knee is slipping out routinely. It won't get better on its own.


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

He didn't say. She only holds it up when she's running and only sometimes. She never seems in pain and is still playing normally.
He said sometimes arthritis can develop but it doesn't always. He said he does a procedure where he moves the ligament? over and ties it or something. I dont know i kinda spaced it. lol
I don't want her to have to get surgery.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

I would put her on supplements holding the leg up is a sign of pain I would ask the vet what grade it is as that can influence your decision if she is holding it up more often than not I personally would be inclined to have surgery as it would only get worse if it's only everso often I'd put her on a high dose of supplements and fish oils and see.

I would also make sure she is as slim as she can be healthily any added weight will cause her more discomfort. 

I'd research into it too and would deffo tell the breeder daisy doesn't have lp but one of her knees is loose so I have her on supplements and do not let her go over 4lb 9oz she got to 5.2 and was bad since glucosamine and keeping her v trim we've had no probs touch wood!!


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

sarah what do you suggest as far as supplements go?
Her weight is 5.2 she looks very lean. He said he didn't think i should have her lose anymore. I have emailed the breeder and told him.
She takes a capsule of wild salmon oil every morning.


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## Amandarose531 (Aug 9, 2010)

Sorry to hear about Leila, Cheryl. LP is absolutely no fun at all.

I'd suggest doing like Sarah said and finding out what grade it is, and going from there.

I too would be influenced to have the surgery if it's a concern if for nothing else it can easily get worse later on down the line if not treated ya know?

I haven't seen Leila in a minute so I can't comment on the weight, 5.2 sounds good for my two, but I know every Chi is different. Also, in my experience, I've found the two vets i've visited have been pretty clueless on both weight and nutrition, they can tell you the weight range for animals of their size, but not specific to my dogs.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Tbh I wouldn't listen to your vet with regards to weight they are so use to seeing fat dogs if she has a well defined waist and a good tuck then that's fab

I give human grade (it's cheaper and worked wonders) 500mg glucosamine and 400mg chrondatin a dy I gave double dose for 6 weeks it's a lot but it's worked wonders seriously she hasn't limped at all in months but it did take 6 weeks to make a difference!

I give salmon oil too


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

So 500 mg gl 400 mg ch is regular dosage? And you gave 1000/800 a day for 6 wks?
I give it to my boxer but the capsules are huge!! What form do you use for daisy?


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

here are some pics from today


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

She's looking good I'd prob get her to 5lb and not go over it!!

Yeah I give 500/400 now and gave 2 tabs for 6 weeks um she has the human tablets just whole with her breakfast and she crunches them up they are massive but daisy is a champ!


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Oh I forgot to say no jumping no walking on back legs etc that needs to stop it puts too much stress on her knees was her other knee ok?


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

He never said anything about it that i can remember, so it must've been fine. He checked them both well.
I called and talked to the receptionist about what grade, she went and talked with him and came back and said he doesn't usually give them a grade unless it's ACL. But it was mild.


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

No jumping!!!! Oh BOY I do NOT know how i'm going stop that.  She runs and jumps constantly up on the furniture.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Yeah you nees to stop the jumping the force of her landing will pop her knee out hence why I got stairs but daisy won't use them urgh


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Awww I just caught up on this thread. I would take her to a specialist to see what they say. It doesn't sound like something your regular vet is terribly familiar with and that would concern me.

I had surgery done on Oakley b'c she was in a lot of pain, otherwise I'd have held off. Many, many chis live long, healthy & happy lives with some form of LP, and many owners never even know about it. 

I do agree, 5 lbs and not an ounce over. She looks fabulous but they really can't be "too thin" when they have the joint trouble.

Get her on the glucosamine supplement as soon as you can, 2x a day for 6 weeks, then 1x a day after that. All my dogs get it, even the ones who have no known issues, its sort of like an "insurance" policy ha ha ha.

I'm quite surprised to find out she is dealing with it too as her breeder health tests and whatnot, and very odd. But I've never seen a breeder guarantee against it in puppies they sell, only that they've tested the parents.


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

I am not going to have anything done unless she starts showing some kind of distress.
I gave her a bit under 1/8 c. for breakfast. No beans this time because i thought she was ok weightwise. So should i continue the beans? I dont know if my scale weighs her accurately, i will weigh her later and try to see if it matches 5.2.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

No I would put her back on her normal food now, just a bit less.

You should continue to add water though as it will help her feel fuller and slow her down


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Cheryl just keep an eye on her if she is always carrying her leg when she's running or what not that IS pain they don't always cry like mummy dogs rarely scream in labour where as we scream like banshees (nt me tho lol) I would actually get a second opinion tho is your vet pop her knee back in? I'd possibly want an x ray to see the size of her groove


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

I will see what the doc thinks about an xray. My vet is one of if not the best around here. And trustworthy too.
I just got a troubling email back from the breeder. It really makes me very angry.
He said "that was part of my hesitation using an outside stud that wasn't health tested."
UM to which i responded.."I thought you did health testing on sires and dams. That is the reason i bought from you. Had i know the sire wasn't I wouldn't have bought her." And I said "dont' you have a health guarantee?"
UGHHHHH!!!!!!! This really really REALLY ticks me offfff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

cherper said:


> I will see what the doc thinks about an xray. My vet is one of if not the best around here. And trustworthy too.
> I just got a troubling email back from the breeder. It really makes me very angry.
> He said "that was part of my hesitation using an outside stud that wasn't health tested."
> UM to which i responded.."I thought you did health testing on sires and dams. That is the reason i bought from you. Had i know the sire wasn't I wouldn't have bought her." And I said "dont' you have a health guarantee?"
> UGHHHHH!!!!!!! This really really REALLY ticks me offfff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:


I would be mad too. You paid a premium price for her and part of that was the extensive health testing on the breeding stock. To find out the stud wasn't health tested at all is very disappointing.


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

Just got another email from him. "The stud owner had him checked for the same things we health test for but he was not certified. I would have never used a stud that had not been examined for these very problems. I am hesitant to use outside stud since I don't know the lines very well from not raising their puppies. Also with him not being certified and problems arising, it is difficult to try and figure out what side they came from since there is nothing to link in the database. That's what I meant by the previous email. I didn't mean I used a dog that had never been examined by a vet. I would never do that.

We have a health guarantee against life threatening conditions but not against luxating patellas. This is the number one problem with the breed. Even with both parents not having the problem, it can still come out in the lines. Just like people, you never know what problems will arise with different mixes. We are trying to reduce that as much as possible."


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## foggy (Oct 12, 2009)

Really sorry, Cheryl, that stinks.


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## Dragonfly (Jun 6, 2010)

Aw sorry hon! That's really not cool.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Wow
So sorry this is happening.
I just love how it's always about money with 90% of these breeders.
If I was the breeder and I had sold you Leila I would offer you another dog.

Because surgery is going to set you back at the least the cost of a pup.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

cherper said:


> Just got another email from him. "The stud owner had him checked for the same things we health test for but he was not certified. I would have never used a stud that had not been examined for these very problems. I am hesitant to use outside stud since I don't know the lines very well from not raising their puppies. Also with him not being certified and problems arising, it is difficult to try and figure out what side they came from since there is nothing to link in the database. That's what I meant by the previous email. I didn't mean I used a dog that had never been examined by a vet. I would never do that.
> 
> We have a health guarantee against life threatening conditions but not against luxating patellas. This is the number one problem with the breed. Even with both parents not having the problem, it can still come out in the lines. Just like people, you never know what problems will arise with different mixes. We are trying to reduce that as much as possible."


I would be going batty I was gonna go back to sleep but thought I'd respond

What a tosser!!!!

You tell him his website is misleading then (did u know the stud wasn't his btw) and that surgery is going to cost you a fortune as it's likely she will need it at somepoint and you didn't insure her because HE stated he health tests

That's BS what he said breeders know their lines stud owners know there's... They know if there is LP in them this is why we go to decent breeders

She is under a year old there is no injury regardless of if he was hesitant or not he used another stud he is responsible for every puppy he ever bred and needs to take responsibility!!! Can you get the stud dogs details? I'd be inclined to email them and inform them!! You're never gonna know where it came from

And tbh if it was a dog I bred and it was not caused by injury I'd wanna help out too or at least give some advice

What a pig


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

I'm so bummed.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Dint blame you what a skank I hate people like that pees me off it'd all about money

All you can do is help her as much as you can he's obv not gonna do anything and nevebuy from him again


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

I've been looking at the glu/cho supps and they all have "other" ingredients in them like MSM. Should i avoid those kind or not?


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Ihad that problem amdthought I'd stay with just those two ingrediants mine came from eBay


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

please don't anyone jump on me for this post but it could be that as you stated in your original post ' she was jumping around like she usually does ' she could well have damaged her knee with all the jumping around and be nothing to be with her breeding. These dogs don't have the strongest knees and we never let any of ours jump around routinely and we recommend that no-one with a chihuahua does this either. I am very sorry that your dog has this but I hate that people jump on the breeders as soon as something goes wrong. Please don't take offence to this as it was not meant in any way nasty or to blame you but just to point out that injuries to these little ones happen very easily and also why insurance is very important x
hugs to Leila and to you x


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

mad dog woman said:


> please don't anyone jump on me for this post but it could be that as you stated in your original post ' she was jumping around like she usually does ' she could well have damaged her knee with all the jumping around and be nothing to be with her breeding. These dogs don't have the strongest knees and we never let any of ours jump around routinely and we recommend that no-one with a chihuahua does this either. I am very sorry that your dog has this but I hate that people jump on the breeders as soon as something goes wrong. Please don't take offence to this as it was not meant in any way nasty or to blame you but just to point out that injuries to these little ones happen very easily and also why insurance is very important x
> hugs to Leila and to you x


I do have to agree its very, very easy for them to damage their knees, even with the soundest breeding & health testing behind them. It's not like the stud wasn't checked, either. An OFA # for patellas doesn't mean much more because regular, run of the mill vets issue them...the same vet that checked the studs knees.

Its just an unfortunate fact of life for small dogs, especially chihuahuas. I am trying my absolute best to minimize any and all jumping from them. Its just not good for them.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

cherper said:


> I've been looking at the glu/cho supps and they all have "other" ingredients in them like MSM. Should i avoid those kind or not?


MSM is fine for them to have, Glycoflex, one of the most common supplements for dogs, has it in it. It is a natural pain killer.


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

I don't take offense. But when she wants to jump onto the chair, couch etc. with us. It's going to be darn near impossible to break her of that.
I do realize things can happen even with the best breeder. But I do feel like his website was misleading somewhat And I didn't really think about who the sire belonged to, which may be my own ignorance but not everyone is going to think of that. Regardless if he is breeding his bitch with it, then he should be darned sure its a healthy dog with no lp in the lines. 
I got her some supps tonight at the store.
Natrol : Joint Health Products
I gave her two just now. I rubbed a tiny smear of peanut butter and gave then to her, and she took it and then it was gone. lol I thought she'd go chew them up but she swallowed them whole. haha. These are quite a bit smaller than any i've seen. So thats good and no other ingred. in them.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Those supplements look fabulous.

I totally don't feel like your reaction is unreasonable, either, girl. Remember the one breeder we talked about and I told you to steer clear b'c I knew of a few puppies having LP? I don't get that from Leila's breeder, though. He probably is upset about it as well. Still, he should have been clear to you that it was an outside stud, but I guess you live and you learn. Many, many breeders don't test at all, which is very sad...its not that expensive.


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

He was very apologetic in an earlier email. But I think it was irresponsible on his part. I mean he acted like he "just found out" that the sire wasn't certified.


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## cprcheetah (May 4, 2009)

It doesn't sound like your Vet is very familiar with LP at all, they ALL have grades based on the severity of them and how they pop in and out. Leila is looking fabulous weight wise.

There are four degrees (grades) of luxation: 
Grade I. The knee only slips out when the vet manipulates it. 

Grade II. The knee luxates occasionally when the dog is walking or running. He/she may not seem to mind much, or they may shriek, but it usually slides back by itself as they continues moving. Or you can slip it back manually (ask the vet to show you how). 

Grade III. The knee luxates frequently and causes chronic lameness. Even when you put it back manually, it doesn't seem to last long. 

Grade IV. The knee luxates, stays that way, and you can't put it back into its socket. This grade is very rare but happens. 

I agree start with the glucosamine/chondroitin, keep her weight lean, and regular exercise will help.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

I will add...you can luxate ANY small dog's knee if you press on it hard enough in the right direction. There is a certain, reasonable degree of pressure and stress the joint should be expected to withstand, and maybe Leila just asked "too much" of her knee? If the other knee is fine, its unlikely it is a genetic problem. Genetic LP almost always is in both legs. And any dog under 1 year of age is still growing/developing their knee structure...so I would not recommend LP surgery for a chi under 1 year. Its silly to do surgery on something still changing and developing. I would train her to not jump on the couch. Flat out tell her NO! and keep her down. It will not be easy but it is what we are having to do with ours and that's 4 at once, not just one


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

I will try for her sake of course. But i know it's gonna be a looong road. She wants to be with us naturally and we are generally on the furniture. lol
Thanks Heather! I think she looks sooooo much better. I gave her just under 1/8 c. for brekky and tonight i gave her some more beans and 10 kibbles. I don't think she will lose those last two oz on 1/4 c. a day. That is so close to the 3/8 that she was having originally and she got chubby on. I'll do the beans maybe another week and then put her on the 1/4 c day or just under that probably. Does that sound reasonable?


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

I got stairs and mine have been using them at least 50% of the time. I figure that's better than 0% of the time...but still, I hear ya. It is NOT easy.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

It's really hard to stop the jumping lotus uses the stairs we had made daisy won't so I tell her to stay and lift we up or down if there's a knock at the door then she flies off!! 

Daisys breeder told me there was nothing inher lines I don't believe her she's a byb through and through but who knows! I agree about waiting it out till she's a year I wondered if daisys problem was she was growing her front legs use to tie out badly since she stopped growing they don't and she stopped limping


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## foggy (Oct 12, 2009)

Daisydoo said:


> It's really hard to stop the jumping lotus uses the stairs we had made daisy won't so I tell her to stay and lift we up or down if there's a knock at the door then she flies off!!


I have the same problem, it's so frustrating. Roo needs steps to get up, but then half the time won't use them to get down, and does the same thing.. goes flying off if there's a knock or anything that surprises her. I had to take the stairs away completely.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

flippedstars said:


> I will add...you can luxate ANY small dog's knee if you press on it hard enough in the right direction. There is a certain, reasonable degree of pressure and stress the joint should be expected to withstand, and maybe Leila just asked "too much" of her knee? If the other knee is fine, its unlikely it is a genetic problem. Genetic LP almost always is in both legs. And any dog under 1 year of age is still growing/developing their knee structure...so I would not recommend LP surgery for a chi under 1 year. Its silly to do surgery on something still changing and developing. I would train her to not jump on the couch. Flat out tell her NO! and keep her down. It will not be easy but it is what we are having to do with ours and that's 4 at once, not just one


I was going to suggest stairs.
Try them and see if they help?


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