# Really need to vent.. sorry :(



## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

Okay so this afternoon everything was going fine, me Bailey and the cat were all napping. One of my four brothers (who is quite a bit older than me... I'm 23 he's 46) came over to drop something off... Well, Bailey is scared of other people besides the 3 of us who she lives with. My brother gets this idea that he is going to be Ceasar Malone and try and get Bailey to submit to him....He hovered over her and growled and poked her neck then back side all while Bailey was growling, yelping and trying to bite.. He then started poking me and she of course wanted to protect me. So he did it to her again scaring her so bad she peed all over me and the blanket and fell off the couch trying to get away from him.. Hid under our reclining rocking chair, so my brother decided to throw it aside and take her out of there doing everything over again away from me. I was constantly telling him to stop because she needs to warm up to people on her own or she will always be scared. He just told me to shut up cause he knew what he was doing...Well he left about 40 minutes ago and Bailey is still scared hiding under my arm pit.. I just want her back to her same self..  Sorry I had to vent..


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Oh my goodness! how awful.
That man clearly does NOT understand Chihuahuas! 

You have every right to be upset.


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

KittyD said:


> Oh my goodness! how awful.
> That man clearly does NOT understand Chihuahuas!
> 
> You have every right to be upset.


I know, I was literaly in tears begging him to stop but he insisted he knew what he was doing and I couldn't stop him.. I feel so bad. She was so scared and mommy couldn't protect her


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## jan896 (Dec 9, 2009)

Sounds like your brother is abit of a bully......... My house, my Rules....... he would NOT be welcome back to my home unless he never done that again.........


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## pjknust (Oct 26, 2011)

I think frying pan to the head would have been in order.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

jan896 said:


> Sounds like your brother is abit of a bully......... My house, my Rules....... he would NOT be welcome back to my home unless he never done that again.........


THIS!! 
Can you ban him from the house for a while?


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

jan896 said:


> Sounds like your brother is abit of a bully......... My house, my Rules....... he would NOT be welcome back to my home unless he never done that again.........


If it was my house, it would be that way for sure. The thing is. I live with my parents. I will be talking to them tonight for sure, not sure what they will say though. I honestly hate my brother so much. I know he is family but he'd be better off gone


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

He also has bigger dogs and it "worked for them" (so he says) so it will work for Bailey and make her a better dog in the long run


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

pjknust said:


> I think frying pan to the head would have been in order.


Believe me, something more vicious then that crossed my mind.


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## jan896 (Dec 9, 2009)

BaileysMum said:


> I honestly hate my brother so much. I know he is family but he'd be better off gone


I have a brother like that too...... he was mean to me growing up.... *hugs*

can you put yourself and your doggie out of harms way when he comes over, like going to your room till he leaves... or take your doggies for a long walk...


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

jan896 said:


> I have a brother like that too...... he was mean to me growing up.... *hugs*
> 
> can you put yourself and your doggie out of harms way when he comes over, like going to your room till he leaves... or take your doggies for a long walk...


She hates walking but I do have a huge bedroom she loves with a lock =D. I wouldve today but we were sleeping on the couch and I was the only one home. So he would've just followed me and he can run/walk whatever way faster than me as I have a disability. But next time, I'll be sure to knock him unconscious before he gets to Bailey. I don't EVER want her to experience that again. To make matters worse, she isn't even full grown.. She's 13 weeks old..


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

That is terrible and no way to treat a dog,i would show him all these posts.I have a horrible brother that i don't speak too anymore,his dog is a horrid like him.


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## CHITheresa (Apr 30, 2011)

i would have clubed him over the head with a lamp or something. I agree I would not let him come over for awhile, let him know how upset you are and how this has affected Bailey.


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

CHITheresa said:


> i would have clubed him over the head with a lamp or something. I agree I would not let him come over for awhile, let him know how upset you are and how this has affected Bailey.


See that's exactly the thing. I did! I was crying and telling him to look at her she was scared crapless. Growling and trying to bite him (which made him do it more) and all he said was "That is how puppies learn how to submit to people". I told him she was my dog and I wanted to train her MY way..To which he said "I'd like to see you try and stop me" I hate hate hate him. So does Bailey and honestly... So do 4 out of 5 of his kids..


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

Shes laying on my lap shaking looking up at me like she is soo scared. Nothing I do makes her feel better! She won't even eat any apple (which is her fav)


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## Reese and Miley (Jun 24, 2010)

Eek! Aside from being unkind, that is sooo not the way to go with a fearful dog. Poor Bailey, Im sorry.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

13 weeks is very young for that to happen to her 
Just my opinion but I would start taking her out and giving her positive interactions with people. You want to fix this sooner than later.

Get your friends to greet her with treats so she does not associate strange people with abuse/scary things.
otherwise you might end up with a fear biter, she was clearly traumatized.


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

KittyD said:


> 13 weeks is very young for that to happen to her
> Just my opinion but I would start taking her out and giving her positive interactions with people. You want to fix this sooner than later.
> 
> Get your friends to greet her with treats so she does not associate strange people with abuse/scary things.
> otherwise you might end up with a fear biter, she was clearly traumatized.


I do that with 95% of people! Which she learns to love after about 40 minutes or so =D She also starts puppy training/socialization on Monday. I'm excited


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

BaileysMum said:


> I do that with 95% of people! Which she learns to love after about 40 minutes or so =D She also starts puppy training/socialization on Monday. I'm excited


Sounds like you are on the right path! 
She'll be ok.. doggies are pretty resilient.


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

KittyD said:


> Sounds like you are on the right path!
> She'll be ok.. doggies are pretty resilient.


Yep! I still feel so bad for her though. My brothers only ever had medium to large sized dogs 15 pounds+ and he doesn't have a clue what chis are like. I'll be trying my darn hardest to keep him away from her, that is for sure!


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## mooberry (Jan 31, 2011)

I had my mother tell me when I was trying to teach Bijoux to lay down "just push her down" that alone pissed me off I said. "well good things she's my dog" She also thinks Bijoux should be spanked Made me so upset I looked her straight in the eye and said. "you will never baby sit her"

If anyone would have done that I would have tackled him no joke. I know you were in a position to do that but for me the moment you hurt my dog is the moment I go into "red zone mama" if anyone ever hurt my dog they better watch out they would NOT be trusted ever again.


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## lynx8456 (Feb 26, 2009)

My husband wouldn't have waited for him to leave nor would he have yelled @ him...simply put he would have punched the guy's lights out in 1 swing and then threw his a** out on the sidewalk. As for me a baseball bat or kick to the groin would have served to stop him. He also would never be allowed on my property again. I hope your dog is going to be ok. I have no doubt your dog will always fear your brother. Chihuahuas never forget.


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

mooberry said:


> I had my mother tell me when I was trying to teach Bijoux to lay down "just push her down" that alone pissed me off I said. "well good things she's my dog" She also thinks Bijoux should be spanked Made me so upset I looked her straight in the eye and said. "you will never baby sit her"
> 
> If anyone would have done that I would have tackled him no joke. I know you were in a position to do that but for me the moment you hurt my dog is the moment I go into "red zone mama" if anyone ever hurt my dog they better watch out they would NOT be trusted ever again.


I've never trusted my brother! I will be talking to my parents and if they don't agree to help me out (because she IS my dog) I will be protecting her next time. He just better watch the hell out


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

lynx8456 said:


> My husband wouldn't have waited for him to leave nor would he have yelled @ him...simply put he would have punched the guy's lights out in 1 swing and then threw his a** out on the sidewalk. As for me a baseball bat or kick to the groin would have served to stop him. He also would never be allowed on my property again. I hope your dog is going to be ok. I have no doubt your dog will always fear your brother. Chihuahuas never forget.


If I had enough balance to fight him or two hands I would have. I am honestly thinking about getting a stun gun for next time. It seems kind of mean but, no one has the right to do that to my baby. Luckily between me and the cat (her two favorites) we got her back to normal =D


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## mooberry (Jan 31, 2011)

BaileysMum said:


> If I had enough balance to fight him or two hands I would have. I am honestly thinking about getting a stun gun for next time. It seems kind of mean but, no one has the right to do that to my baby. Luckily between me and the cat (her two favorites) we got her back to normal =D



LOVE the stun gun Idea you have 100% right to protect her!


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

mooberry said:


> LOVE the stun gun Idea you have 100% right to protect her!


You know, I don't have children of my own yet (except for her =D). NO ONE would get away with doing that to my human children why the hell should they get away with doing that to my animal baby. Not going to happen. I will be warning my parents that he is to stay away from my dog from now on and if he does not he WILL pay


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

This is one of the problems with Cesar Milan and his "techniques". People watch him on TV and think they can just copy him. Unfortunately, many many dogs have been ruined by his training techniques. There is a disclaimer on each and ever episode saying NOT to try this at home and to seek a professional behaviorist but people don't. I wish they would take him off the air. He is a menace.

Just provide your little pup with lots of positive experiences and try not to feed into her fear. For example, if she cowers and acts scared don't pick her up and pet her and reassure her that all is OK. That is reinforcing her behavior and teaching her that there IS something to be afraid of. Be a bit of an actress and act happy and very RELAXED around stressful environments so that she can feed off of your stability and realize there is nothing to be frightened of. 

Your puppy socialization classes should be great. Let us know how it goes!


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

Brodysmom said:


> This is one of the problems with Cesar Milan and his "techniques". People watch him on TV and think they can just copy him. Unfortunately, many many dogs have been ruined by his training techniques. There is a disclaimer on each and ever episode saying NOT to try this at home and to seek a professional behaviorist but people don't. I wish they would take him off the air. He is a menace.
> 
> Just provide your little pup with lots of positive experiences and try not to feed into her fear. For example, if she cowers and acts scared don't pick her up and pet her and reassure her that all is OK. That is reinforcing her behavior and teaching her that there IS something to be afraid of. Be a bit of an actress and act happy and very RELAXED around stressful environments so that she can feed off of your stability and realize there is nothing to be frightened of.
> 
> Your puppy socialization classes should be great. Let us know how it goes!


Thanks! I will try that I didn't do that today because I have never ever seen her like that and it down right scared me! Usually she cowers and people just slowly move up to her, feed her a treat and let her sniff them. But today I was scared for her


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## Dragonfly (Jun 6, 2010)

Aw Bless little Bailey's heart :sad5: she must have been so dang scared to pee like that. =( I would be so upset too! I guess it is kinda hard since you live at home but yes, please talk with your parents. <3 Give little Bailers a big huggers from me & my gang!!


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

Dragonfly said:


> Aw Bless little Bailey's heart :sad5: she must have been so dang scared to pee like that. =( I would be so upset too! I guess it is kinda hard since you live at home but yes, please talk with your parents. <3 Give little Bailers a big huggers from me & my gang!!


Will do! =D She is passing on kisses hehe


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

In my opinion, I don't think the whole "being submissive" thing works with chihuahuas. It just makes them more afraid/possibly aggressive. Tell your brother that it is YOUR dog and YOU will make the decision on how you train her. If he won't leave her alone, put her in a playpen in your room when he is there.


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

missy_r said:


> In my opinion, I don't think the whole "being submissive" thing works with chihuahuas. It just makes them more afraid/possibly aggressive. Tell your brother that it is YOUR dog and YOU will make the decision on how you train her. If he won't leave her alone, put her in a playpen in your room when he is there.


I will do that. Honestly I don't even know what the heck being submissive is and he wouldn't tell me. I don't watch that Ceasar garbage either


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

lynx8456 said:


> My husband wouldn't have waited for him to leave nor would he have yelled @ him...simply put he would have punched the guy's lights out in 1 swing and then threw his a** out on the sidewalk. As for me a baseball bat or kick to the groin would have served to stop him. He also would never be allowed on my property again. I hope your dog is going to be ok. I have no doubt your dog will always fear your brother. Chihuahuas never forget.





BaileysMum said:


> I will do that. Honestly I don't even know what the heck being submissive is and he wouldn't tell me. I don't watch that Ceasar garbage either


I personally like Ceasar and I like some of his methods as well.
however, that said.. Chihuahua's are pretty unique in that you cannot apply typical logic with them all the time. 
They don't react like other breeds (part of the charm IMO) Lynx is right though, they usually do not forget things.. very clever sensitive little buggers.


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## Dragonfly (Jun 6, 2010)

BaileysMum said:


> You know, I don't have children of my own yet (except for her =D). NO ONE would get away with doing that to my human children why the hell should they get away with doing that to my animal baby. Not going to happen. I will be warning my parents that he is to stay away from my dog from now on and if he does not he WILL pay


:hello1: You're so right  I don't have kids either but I know when I do that I am the parent and I will be the one in charge, nobody else. So I view that the same way with my furkids  I don't like when people in my family call Kanyon by his old adopted name,YES he responds to it a bit better but at the same time I'm trying to leave that old name which was Duke, in the past. He lives here now and that is his name. I really don't like it at all and I had to tell a couple "male" family members to stop this! LOL You know it's always a guy and not the girls! I think we just think better anyways HAHa!!! But seriously I think you're right if you wouldn't let him do that to your human kid do'nt let him get away with doing it with your furkid!!! =) I'm glad you got to come on here and vent it helps so much!! *hugs*


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

Dragonfly said:


> :hello1: You're so right  I don't have kids either but I know when I do that I am the parent and I will be the one in charge, nobody else. So I view that the same way with my furkids  I don't like when people in my family call Kanyon by his old adopted name,YES he responds to it a bit better but at the same time I'm trying to leave that old name which was Duke, in the past. He lives here now and that is his name. I really don't like it at all and I had to tell a couple "male" family members to stop this! LOL You know it's always a guy and not the girls! I think we just think better anyways HAHa!!! But seriously I think you're right if you wouldn't let him do that to your human kid do'nt let him get away with doing it with your furkid!!! =) I'm glad you got to come on here and vent it helps so much!! *hugs*


Thanks! I do feel a bit better and so does Bailey


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

Okay so I just talked to my dad and he full heartily agrees with me. She is my dog and no one should do anything unless I tell them they can. That said we are going to talk to him together and let him know it's unacceptable and he is not to do it again.


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

Just read all this.. SO glad your dad is on your side and you have him to help stand up to your brother. That is just not acceptable. I do like some of Cesar's teachings; however a lot of them do NOT apply to FEAR aggressive dogs. That's a whole different ballgame. Some dogs bite because they want to be dominant and in control. And other dogs bite because they are terrified as a defense mechanism.

"Submissive" basically means that they allow YOU to be the pack leader/in charge of them. Means that they don't challenge your authority. 

However it is really clear that your brother was mistaking her FEAR aggression as something entirely different. I would be absolutely livid with anyone who treated my dogs this way as it does nothing but reinforces that they SHOULD be afraid... ugh... 

Agreed it's very good you start socialization classes with her as that will help get her back on the right track. So sorry this happened to you and your baby. =(


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

Yeah, I'm glad my dad is on my side too. Makes me feel better about the whole situation


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

BaileysMum said:


> Yeah, I'm glad my dad is on my side too. Makes me feel better about the whole situation



Fabulous!


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

Bailey is pretty much her old self as well. Back to happy all around


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## Kaila (Nov 10, 2009)

I think it makes a huge statement to your dog even if you just snatch her up into your arms and turn your back to the "attacker" or leave. It sort of demonstrates "I'll protect you NO MATTER WHAT. Don't worry about biting them, because I'll make sure you're safe." We all might want to punch someone who would do that to our dogs, but I understand how with a family member it might be more complicated than that. Education and prevention are probably your best bet. If you know your brother is coming over, put your dog away so he never has a chance to interact with her. If he continues to go out of his way to yell at her or taunt her in any way, THEN I'd slap him. :foxes15: But until that point, you can do your best to keep them separated, educate him (See websites like BEYOND CESAR MILLAN), and in clutch situations show your dog that you WILL protect her from ANYBODY. Even if all you can do is pick her up and remove her from the situation.

I agree that 13 weeks is way too young to have a traumatic experience like that. Your brother probably will always be disliked by her. In order to prevent her fear from growing into a fear biting situation, make sure to socialize her especially with people who look and dress sort of like your brother (ex. men who look like they're in the 40-50 age range). If she has good experiences with enough of them then she'll learn that it's JUST your brother who's a jerk, not all middle-aged men.


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## Willowjune (Oct 27, 2011)

I'm so sorry that happened to your baby! If he tries it again, do you have a room where you could go and lock the door?


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

KittynKahlua said:


> Just read all this.. SO glad your dad is on your side and you have him to help stand up to your brother. That is just not acceptable. I do like some of Cesar's teachings; however a lot of them do NOT apply to FEAR aggressive dogs. That's a whole different ballgame. Some dogs bite because they want to be dominant and in control. And other dogs bite because they are terrified as a defense mechanism.
> 
> "Submissive" basically means that they allow YOU to be the pack leader/in charge of them. Means that they don't challenge your authority.
> 
> ...


Bailey knows I am her pack leader, she never questions it! Actually she listens to all 3 of us very well! She doesn't need to listen to my brother since we only ever see him once every month or two..


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## Dragonfly (Jun 6, 2010)

Yay!! I'm glad to hear that about your dad & Bailey being back to her old self!! :hello1:


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## MiniGrace (Oct 31, 2011)

I am glad you are both okay. Your post made me frightened for both of you. A man who would treat a helpless puppy like that probably bullies the people in his life. Since he is your much older brother and especially since you have a disability, he should be protective of you, not frighten you like that. It must be why his kids don't like him.

Bless your dad for standing up to you. I wish he would tell your brother that he csnnot come in the house unless your dad is home. I would also change the locks if he has a key. I mean, what kind of person does that to his sister? This is upsetting on so many levels.


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## Kaila (Nov 10, 2009)

Okay, I'm going to get preachy for just one minute. Only to share something which might actually inspire and help others, and then I'll be done, I swear.

I *personally* don't believe that dominance-based techniques are useful for ANY dog, no matter how big or small. Research shows time and time again that positive reinforcement (giving rewards for good behavior) COUPLED with ignoring bad behavior is the best method for training a dog and for building a relationship based on trust and understanding.

The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

Dominance is often way misunderstood. A single dog is not "dominant" or "submissive" by itself. A dog who is dominant to one dog may be submissive to another. It's a relationship, not a state of being or a personality trait.

Also, humans are not meant to be "pack leaders." We're not wolves. We're not dogs. And the dog _knows_ that. We have the power to supply them with food and to take it away. We can control their access to mates, the best sleeping places, playtime, and human interaction. That is, by far, better than being on their level, where we would be forced to use physical intimidation in order to coerce them into doing what we want.

_"In the wild, a high ranking animal's alpha status may only last a short time. That is, it will last only as long as the individual can maintain it's rank though aggressive acts. For instance, a lion's tenure lasts an average of 2 years, in elephant seals the beach master may only have several years where he can attain high enough rank to mate."_

I have never ever spanked Teddy. I don't "rub his nose" in an accident. I've never grabbed a dog's paws or kneed them in the chest when they jumped up on me. I honestly think these methods are completely outdated. I also don't use social isolation techniques because I feel like this doesn't really solve the problem of barking, growling.. whatever the issue may be. I use crate training, but mostly as a method of "setting the dog up for success"--not as a "timeout" place.

I know a lot of people seem to like Cesar Millan, but if you take a look at the responses from licensed animal behaviorists and veterinarians (including the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior), you'll see that his methods are actually more harmful than helpful. He gets quick results, but at what cost?

BEYOND CESAR MILLAN - Home


I'm done.


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## MiniGrace (Oct 31, 2011)

I don't care for some of the "dominance" based techniques I've seen either. I have used social isolation for brief periods of time for what I consider as extreme misbehaviour but the only thing I really do that for is agression towards another dog or human. And the thing I think you have to remember about Cesar Milan is that some of the dogs he works with are dangerous, extreme cases that require extreme solutions. His methods certainly imo are not needed or appropriate for the average pet. Certainly not for a frightened, tiny puppy. I'd like to think that even Cesar would've wanted to kick this guy out on his behind.


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## roughhouse (Mar 1, 2009)

I happen to think that Cesar himself is very good with dogs. He treats dogs like dogs and that is exactly what they are. What people fail to realize is that the issues that he deals with on the show are extreme issues and dangerous dogs. Also, people tend to pick and choose which of the methods they ATTEMPT to use. They neglect the basics that Cesar tries to focus on; such as, good, frequent exercise, consistant rules and immediate reactions to bad behavior. Unfortunately, most people do not treat dogs very well. Dogs are left tied out with no interaction, they are treated like little humans, they are under stimulated, and most dogs get very little appropriate exercise. 

Chihuahuas do have incredible memories though. When Neeci was little, my husband's little adopted brother (who has special needs and was 3 at the time) threw a toy at her while she was in her playpen. He couldn't reach to touch her but she was terrified. To this day, she will not allow little boys with short blonde hair near her. She screams like someone is killing her if one even comes within a few feet of her. We never reward that behavior and another child has never hurt her but even 2 years later she hasn't forgiven.


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## ~LS~ (Oct 29, 2011)

Denise, I'm very sorry you and Bailey had to go through that. 
It is disturbing, and you have every right to be upset.
As you can see everyone here is on your side. HUGS!
I'm glad Bailey is ok now, but I feel bad for your brother's dogs.
As for Cesar, I strongly disagree with his "techniques".
Leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, restraint, etc
are not my cup of tea. His name alone makes my blood boil. 
I personally think you can get better results from a dog by using motivation
instead of intimidation. What's worse is seeing dog owners use Cesar's
techniques on their own dogs. It's easy to use force to get a dog to do what
you want, but will that dog worship the ground you walk on? I highly doubt it.
It'll fear you. I rather have a dog that *wants* to do what I ask of it, instead of a
dog who does it out of fear. So next time your brother criticizes you for
wanting to use different training methods, you can tell him that you are
confident in yourself therefore you don't need to bully a tiny dog in order
to feel like a man!


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## roughhouse (Mar 1, 2009)

MiniGrace said:


> I'd like to think that even Cesar would've wanted to kick this guy out on his behind.


I completely agree. The "method" that your brother was using was certainly not something Cesar himself would have done. The shows where I have seen him working with scared dogs he has been very sensitive and worked on gaining their trust with patience and positive reinforcement. He certainly never used dominance techniques on a terrified animal. I would say that is a form of torture not training.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Kaila said:


> I have never ever spanked Teddy. I don't "rub his nose" in an accident. I've never grabbed a dog's paws or kneed them in the chest when they jumped up on me. I honestly think these methods are completely outdated. I also don't use social isolation techniques because I feel like this doesn't really solve the problem of barking, growling.. whatever the issue may be. I use crate training, but mostly as a method of "setting the dog up for success"--not as a "timeout" place.


I don't think any of your above examples have anything to do with being a calm assertive leader for your dog. I don't think those examples have anything to do with the work Milan does.



roughhouse said:


> I happen to think that Cesar himself is very good with dogs. He treats dogs like dogs and that is exactly what they are. What people fail to realize is that the issues that he deals with on the show are extreme issues and dangerous dogs. Also, people tend to pick and choose which of the methods they ATTEMPT to use. They neglect the basics that Cesar tries to focus on; such as, good, frequent exercise, consistant rules and immediate reactions to bad behavior. Unfortunately, most people do not treat dogs very well. Dogs are left tied out with no interaction, they are treated like little humans, they are under stimulated, and most dogs get very little appropriate exercise.


You hit the nail on the head! 
People often forget it's a TV show.. he is the end of the line for a lot of those dogs, and they are not your common every day behaviour situation that any of us on this forum would likely encounter with our own pets anyhow.
People just grasp at bits and pieces and fail to realize the whole big picture with the work he does. That said he elicits a very reactionary response from some people who don't understand the scope of his work, I don't think even Milan himself would suggest people adopt his behaviour modification techniques without experienced help/trainers in fact his show states a disclaimer about just that! he is spot on with the advice that a tired dog is a happy dog, dogs need routine, exercise and consistent leadership I think that spans any breed really, it's just common sense.




roughhouse said:


> I completely agree. The "method" that your brother was using was certainly not something Cesar himself would have done. The shows where I have seen him working with scared dogs he has been very sensitive and worked on gaining their trust with patience and positive reinforcement. He certainly never used dominance techniques on a terrified animal. I would say that is a form of torture not training.


I agree with this as well, I've watched tons of his shows and he's been stellar with submissive fearful dogs, I remember an episode where he worked with a dog who had a fear of toys and I think the owner had a business that manufactured these toys.. anyhow I digress I guess everyone has an opinion.


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## bayoumah (Nov 30, 2010)

hi so sorry to hear of such a cruel story of a family member


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

Thanks everyone. I'm still traumatized from it all as for Bailey she is okay. I have since also talked to my mom who agrees he was bullying her and that is NOT to happen again. In fact she encourages both me and Bailey to avoid him at all costs. As to the other techniques with the leash slaps, rubbing there nose in accidents and the other methods Ceasar uses.. My brother also uses on his dogs. In fact, before he left when Bailey was safe again he asked me how our walking training was going (for those that don't know she HATES going outside for walking or anything) I flat out lied to him and told him she was better because i KNOW how he trained his dogs to walk


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

BaileysMum said:


> Thanks everyone. I'm still traumatized from it all as for Bailey she is okay. I have since also talked to my mom who agrees he was bullying her and that is NOT to happen again. In fact she encourages both me and Bailey to avoid him at all costs. As to the other techniques with the leash slaps, rubbing there nose in accidents and the other methods Ceasar uses.. My brother also uses on his dogs. In fact, before he left when Bailey was safe again he asked me how our walking training was going (for those that don't know she HATES going outside for walking or anything) I flat out lied to him and told him she was better because i KNOW how he trained his dogs to walk


I'm genuinely curious has CM aired an episode where he rubbed a dogs face in an accident? if this happened I really want to see it, as I do not agree with it and have not seen this watching the show yet.. very disturbing.
Can you please post the link to the episode?

Thanks ..


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

KittyD said:


> I'm genuinely curious has CM aired an episode where he rubbed a dogs face in an accident? if this happened I really want to see it, as I do not agree with it and have not seen this watching the show yet.. very disturbing.
> Can you please post the link to the episode?
> 
> Thanks ..


I honestly don't know as I don't watch it.. But my brother said that's how he trained them, so he did it to his dogs.. Who knows


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## Lisajazzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Cesar has never ever done that.

Infact he was very calm and patient watching the one where the dog ate her own poop - anyone remember that one where he had poop all over his trailer. Plus I have seen he has rubbish hotel rooms when travelling as he usually has dogs with him, probably because they pee.

What your brother did was NOT what CM would have done with a fearful tiny puppy of ANY breed let alone a chi. He teaches people who come in no touch, no talk no eye contact and I remember one big brother who would give the chihuahua a long lingering nasty look when it came in the room, he spoke to the brother about that being aggressive so I highly doubt that he would approve or endorse what your brother did which was misguided and bullyish.

Brodysmom is right in that people try to immitate him and make mistakes. Your brother sounds like he's an aggressive personality using CM's methods in his way to be aggressive - NOT assertive. Assertive is fair, calm and in control - it's not bullying which is what your brother is.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

BaileysMum said:


> I honestly don't know as I don't watch it.. But my brother said that's how he trained them, so he did it to his dogs.. Who knows


Oh! ok.. so your brother is obviously just saying whatever he feels like to justify his bizarre over the top actions towards his own dogs. 
I was going to say!! I've watched that show for a few years now and have never seen CM do that before! You should in all fairness catch a few episodes before you form an opinion! it's really not very bad at all. 

I'm glad your little girl is doing better! 
I just noticed you are in Canada as well!


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## BaileysMum (Nov 2, 2011)

Lisajazzi said:


> Cesar has never ever done that.
> 
> Infact he was very calm and patient watching the one where the dog ate her own poop - anyone remember that one where he had poop all over his trailer. Plus I have seen he has rubbish hotel rooms when travelling as he usually has dogs with him, probably because they pee.
> 
> ...


I agree 100% my brother is a bully. I'm just so glad she seems to be her normal self again and my parents agree with me


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## vicsta55 (Apr 20, 2011)

I feel so awful for you and Baily! Your brothers behahior is totally unacceptable! You are a better person than I. I would of been on the phone with the police reporting the incidince and request to have him arreested for: intimidation,assaultand battery deflamation of character, beating an innocent annimal,etc! Hugs......


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## Kaila (Nov 10, 2009)

KittyD said:


> I've watched that show for a few years now and have never seen CM do that before! You should in all fairness catch a few episodes before you form an opinion! it's really not very bad at all.



Some of his methods, such as increasing the exercise regimen for an anxious or easily-excited dog, make sense. (And these are suggestions that ANY good, positive-based trainer would give!) Others are just plain cruel. Here's an actual clip of him and some commentary from veterinarians and trainers:





Shadow video comments - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN

^ Here's a video where Cesar Millan chokes a dog-reactive dog until his tongue turns blue and he urinates out of fear. Counter-conditioning and desensitization (all using positive methods) would've been far more humane.. though the process takes longer. Learned helplessness can spring up in about 10 minutes, but it doesn't last. People don't want to put in the time and energy required to train a dog humanely, so they unfortunately see CM on television and mimic his methods which promise fast results.





Riley video comments - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN

^ Here he drags a St. Bernard who is fearful of stairs up a flight of stairs, choking it.






^ Here's a bunch of clips where CM kicks dogs as a means of positive punishment.

Using punishment at all, even jerking on the leash or lightly kicking a dog, is proven to exacerbate aggressive and fear-based responses by increasing stress hormones in the body. It's unnecessary and actually counter-productive.

Here are a bunch of quotes from APDT-licensed dog trainers, veterinarians and animal behaviorists:

Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan

"On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. *This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes?* The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression."
-- Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers

I'm a follower of Dr. Sophia Yin, Dr. Ian Dunbar, Victoria Stilwell, and Karen Pryor myself. But I'm not here to argue. I seriously just want to provide factual evidence about why the leaders of dog behavior and training around the world--the men and women who went to school for years or spent years training at the APDT standard--believe that Cesar Millan shouldn't be on television. I provided the evidence, and now anyone who wants to pursue positive methods of training will have the resources. Punishment-based training is the old school way. At the end of the day, Cesar Millan is one man with one opinion and no formal training or licensing in ethology or dog training. He has personal experience, but that's not enough to counter the entire school of positive training across the country that says "We can do what you did WITHOUT kicking the dog." Dr. Sophia Yin trains aggressive dogs without using fear-based techniques, so why can't CM?


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## Adrienne (Apr 3, 2009)

aww Im sorry poor Bailey I hope she will be okay ((Huggs))


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## Kaila (Nov 10, 2009)

KittyD said:


> I'm genuinely curious has CM aired an episode where he rubbed a dogs face in an accident? if this happened I really want to see it, as I do not agree with it and have not seen this watching the show yet.. very disturbing.
> Can you please post the link to the episode?


No, no. I didn't mean to imply that CM himself had penalized a dog for an accident by rubbing its nose in it. Cesar Millan sits on the side of punishment-based techniques, but not radically so. By that I mean that he doesn't punish literally every bad behavior and he does hold owners accountable for some things. Owners who don't know anything about dog training tend to punish every single bad behavior. I was just citing ways that I myself avoid using positive punishment as a way of training Teddy. Not all of it is relevant to the discussion about CM techniques, but it is relevant to a discussion about punishment-based training.

I linked some videos of CM using positive punishment in my last post along with quotes from professionals that describe why it is harmful to the dog and the dog-owner relationship.


EDIT: Just because I believe what I believe doesn't mean that I carry it out perfectly or that my dog is perfect. Teddy has some behavior issues just like most dogs. I value positive-based training because I want a dog that responds to me based on trust and love, not fear. This is just my opinion, but I try to back it up with the opinions of others who actually have degrees in animal behavior or veterinary medicine because I know that that probably means a lot more to most people.


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

I guess my only opinion is the fact that I have heard of many dogs that owners were on the brink of surrendering because of behavioral issues they couldn't conquer... the reality is that Cesar HAS helped many, many dogs. I am not saying he can help EVERY dog, or that his techniques work on ANY dog. But there are many cases where in the end the animal does respond very well; without feeling helpless, etc... 
I would still rather someone consult a dog trainer before turning a dog over to a shelter because of issues they thought they could never overcome. I do NOT agree with everything Cesar does; no. I actually saw him in person once where he did a question/answer thing with the audience and I should see if it's on youtube or recorded anywhere as it was very educational. I guess what I'm saying is; I think Cesar himself has worked miracles on dogs and created HAPPY submissive animals from vicious beasts. Not every dog ends up soiling themselves in fear because of his techniques. 
*There are some things that one dog will respond positively to; that another may consider traumatic. There is no single right way to do something. *


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