# double merle?



## Harley Ridin Chopper (Nov 8, 2007)

I know there is a lot of controversy over the merle chi. A friend of mine has decided to get a chihuahua which I am excited about but they are interested in a double merle meaning both parents are merles...I have always heard really negative things about double merles (in other breeds such as aussies) and I have concerns for them getting this puppy. Does anyone know anything about merles specifically or double merles? Anything you can offer would be greatly appreciated.


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## Harley Ridin Chopper (Nov 8, 2007)

Ignore this....thankfully they decided on another puppy =)


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Harley Ridin Chopper said:


> I know there is a lot of controversy over the merle chi. A friend of mine has decided to get a chihuahua which I am excited about but they are interested in a double merle meaning both parents are merles...I have always heard really negative things about double merles (in other breeds such as aussies) and I have concerns for them getting this puppy. Does anyone know anything about merles specifically or double merles? Anything you can offer would be greatly appreciated.


Merles ARE always a touchy subject. I am by no means an expert on the subject however I am led to believe that the biggest taboo in merle breeding is a merle to merle. Out of curiosity - Why is she interested in merle to merle?



Whilst this mating guarantees all the puppies will be a merle, this is the mating which produces the biggest genetic deformities. 



I cannot understand why anyone would willingly risk this mating and deformities just to get a required pattern – she may be your friend but that to me is not a reputable breeder – she is not interested in the health of the breed. 



To anyone breeding merles in a sensible way this does not apply - IMHO this is why merle breeders will always be known as BYB as long as they are interested in mass production.



This then leads to the next question – those who don’t know enough about the merle breeding – what happens if you get a hidden merle because the uneducated breeder didn’t know, and they mate this hidden merle to a merle? How do you police the pedigrees?



Oh boy…..the abuse will probably start and fly now.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Ha ha, I had already posted my message but it had disappeared, perhaps the topic should still continue because people who don't know about the subject would become more educated on it.


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## Ory&C (Mar 20, 2005)

Great topic, I'd love to lern more about the merle dogs in general..... I admit, I know nothing about them.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I know that in Great Danes unless done by a very knowledgeable breeder one that knows the lines they are breeding very well and only being bred to a Mantle or a heavily marked harl that does not carry for the Merle gene it can be done but it still isnt fool proof and they do throw danes with health issues. If done incorrectly it can cause blindness, deafness, seizures, etc.... They usually produce whites or prominently whites, other merles or lightly marked harls that have the above issues.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

I asked if the harlequin dane is in fact the same as a merle but no one seemed to have the answer. 

I belive that dogs who are completely white are more likely to be deaf or blind (or both) I know that some merles have been born with no eyes. Could this be because it is a merle or could it be just something that happened?

There are tests which can be done (is it CERF & Baer Test?)but in the UK too many people are just breeding them because they are "rare" bet none of them have had the tests done.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Just found this link about eye defects http://www.ashgi.org/color/eyedefects.htm it is very interesting reading - I have to say I don't think I would want to chance breeding merles myself though - I would feel so guilty if anything like this happened.


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## ItZy BiTzY (May 15, 2008)

Wow, This is all so interesting. I have been curious how you know a hidden or cryptic merle? Does there have to be a genetic test? ItZys sire was blue merle. Her Dam is fawn/white. Their litter produced a red merle also a black/tan on white (ItZy) a all white w/one black spot on his tush. Would the sibs of the red merle be cryptic merles? I can see how uneducated breeders are breeding and producing pups with bad genetics. Of course ItZy is going to be spayed but, the breeder sold full ownership meaning the red merle female could be bred by some BYB trying to make cash on the color. It's a bit disturbing. Yes?


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

ItZy BiTzY said:


> Wow, This is all so interesting. I have been curious how you know a hidden or cryptic merle? Does there have to be a genetic test? ItZys sire was blue merle. Her Dam is fawn/white. Their litter produced a red merle also a black/tan on white (ItZy) a all white w/one black spot on his tush. Would the sibs of the red merle be cryptic merles? I can see how uneducated breeders are breeding and producing pups with bad genetics. Of course ItZy is going to be spayed but, the breeder sold full ownership meaning the red merle female could be bred by some BYB trying to make cash on the color. It's a bit disturbing. Yes?


Sorry I only know the VERY basic stuff. LOL. I think that a hidden merle can only be discovered by the breeder being honest. I don't know if there are test which can tell if a dog has the merle genes. So if a dog is a hidden merle and mated to a merle does that class as merle to merle mating? 

This is enough to give you a headache!


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## ItZy BiTzY (May 15, 2008)

jesshan said:


> Sorry I only know the VERY basic stuff. LOL. I think that a hidden merle can only be discovered by the breeder being honest. I don't know if there are test which can tell if a dog has the merle genes. So if a dog is a hidden merle and mated to a merle does that class as merle to merle mating?
> 
> This is enough to give you a headache!


Oh sheesh, it does bring up the prospect of the merle to merle and would that then bring into play the same (possibility of) defects? I am going to have to investigate this now.. Dear Google, hahaha! It does disturb me. How does the breeder know if there is not a genetic test for hidden merle? Is it then because they have bred the merle to merle at some point? My apologies, the analytical part of my brain is now on overtime. I wish now I had been better informed. Maybe there is a breeder on here who can give more insight.


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## Ory&C (Mar 20, 2005)

ItZy BiTzY said:


> How does the breeder know if there is not a genetic test for hidden merle? Is it then because they have bred the merle to merle at some point?


I guess only by studying pedigrees and this is where the responsible breeding comes into play . That is why I always stress the importance of breeding registered dogs in which case you can trace back the lines.

Interesting info, keep them coming!


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

ItZy BiTzY said:


> Oh sheesh, it does bring up the prospect of the merle to merle and would that then bring into play the same (possibility of) defects? I am going to have to investigate this now.. Dear Google, hahaha! It does disturb me. How does the breeder know if there is not a genetic test for hidden merle? Is it then because they have bred the merle to merle at some point? My apologies, the analytical part of my brain is now on overtime. I wish now I had been better informed. Maybe there is a breeder on here who can give more insight.


I am like you, I need to know and ask questions but discussions always turn nasty. The pro merle jump up and down shouting they are perfect, there is no problem, the anti merles jump up and down shouting they are defective, cross breed with lots of health problems.


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## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

To be honest I couldn't agree more that merle breeding should be spoken about. It always turns into a cat fight. Personally I'm very on the fence with merles ( I used to be pretty anti and I see very few merle's that I would deem to standard) but I do believe in the right hands with the right background research into the breeding it is a colour that could be understood better and eventually we may get more 'typey' merle chi's as apposed to dogs that personally I don't think should be bred from. Like all breeders I do think merle breeders should look at the dogs not the colour before they choose to breed them and only breed those which fit within standard, are health checked and would be deemed a good quality chihuahua if they were any other colour which is something that very rarely happens. Oh well who knows give it 10-15 years and we might start seeing good quality merles bred from knowledgeable breeds who know their lines as well as those who breed non merle dogs. Until then it will be interesting to watch how it all evolves in the US now as most other countries have banned merle's from being registered.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Ory&C said:


> I guess only by studying pedigrees and this is where the responsible breeding comes into play . That is why I always stress the importance of breeding registered dogs in which case you can trace back the lines.
> 
> Interesting info, keep them coming!



This is too difficult in the UK, all of the merles in the UK are imported into the country from the US, the "breeders" advertise them as from the top US kennels but none of them can have KC registrations because the pattern is disqualified. 

There is also the problem of dogs being brought in from Southern Ireland and sold to people in the UK at about 6 weeks.


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## Ory&C (Mar 20, 2005)

That's why I would leave it to US breeders for the time being ..... I have actually seen a few good representatives of the breed (not many but a few) from American breeding, but unfortunately not in Europe. I myself do not like the colour, but hey, we're all different. As for the UK, I'd stay away from anyone offering a merle pup!!


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Ory&C said:


> That's why I would leave it to US breeders for the time being ..... I have actually seen a few good representatives of the breed (not many but a few) from American breeding, but unfortunately not in Europe. I myself do not like the colour, but hey, we're all different. As for the UK, I'd stay away from anyone offering a merle pup!!


I agree, there are more which don't look like a chihuahua than those who do. 

I don't think people have looked into the breeding side of it in the UK, they originally were advertised about 2 years ago from someone in Scotland, they were NOT KC registered and were being sold for £3500 -£4000. They only saw big bucks!


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I moved some of the posts from here to general chat in case you find that your posts are gone. They got off topic of Chihuahua and I felt I hijacked the thread when I started answering questions on GD's so I moved it;-) You can find further discussion on other breeds that come in the merle color including GD's there if you would like to discuss it further


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## Chihuahualuver (Mar 29, 2011)

*great coat color genetics site*

Ok, the double merle got me searching as I accidently bought a puppy that was a double merle. i did alot of research on the double's. I currently own a black and tan merle and I do breed her, but only to Solid Non-merle Non-mostly white dogs, she produces Lovely merles with no hearing or eye problems. I found one site that has wonderful genetic research, all put into stuff that is easy to understand, and the author left their email so you can ask any questions you have and they WILL get back with you. the site is Dog Coat Colour Genetics the harlequin gene is discussed, as well as Merle, Double Merle, Livers, just about any thing you can think of, Even eyes and Log coat/short coat.


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

jesshan said:


> I asked if the harlequin dane is in fact the same as a merle but no one seemed to have the answer.
> 
> I belive that dogs who are completely white are more likely to be deaf or blind (or both) I know that some merles have been born with no eyes. Could this be because it is a merle or could it be just something that happened?
> 
> There are tests which can be done (is it CERF & Baer Test?)but in the UK too many people are just breeding them because they are "rare" bet none of them have had the tests done.


YES the majority of harlequin danes carry the merle gene x


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