# Did Your Pup Come With Papers? x



## BuddysMummyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Hey all, Just intrigued to see how many owners bought their pups with papers & KC Registration etc etc..... and NO ENDORSEMENTS!

Mine had everything and was even suprised to see that he has champion bloodlines  x explains why he is soooo perfectttt!  x


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

Mine both did and also have champions in their line but there are some on this board who did not and their babies are perhaps just as bred to standard looking and as lovely as my girls.


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

All chis are perfect ! it doesn't matter papers or not we love them all on here


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

I could have had both of mine with AKC papers, but I didn't want to pay the extra $. I also had no plans to show either of them in conformation, so I didn't see a use for papers. .


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## omguthrie (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm not sure what endorsements are?


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## Natti (Jun 24, 2010)

Endorsements are restrictions - Like if you breed the dog its puppies cannot be registered, you cant export the dog, cant show the dog... There are different ones, but the breeding one is most common.

And yes Maisie has KC papers - Need them to show her!


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## CHITheresa (Apr 30, 2011)

Amberleah didn't have papers. the lady said Dad has them but she never sent to get papers on momma.


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## Amanda Kennedy (Nov 5, 2008)

both mine are IKC reg. both have ch in their lines.
makes no difference to me.


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## omguthrie (Oct 13, 2009)

Ah, I see. I believe it's called Limited Registration here in the US. 

In any event, my border collies are all full registered with no limited registration (or endorsements); my chihuahua is a rescue but she is registered with the AKC through their ILP program so she can compete in their performance events. We have no interest in conformation, we like the action and fun of agility.


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## Blondie87 (Jan 10, 2011)

My girls do not have papers, or not really bred to standard..  But I still love them just the same and they are perfect as they are to me, and as pets, I am not in need of papers and such.


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## chisrock (Jul 4, 2011)

I never recieved any papers when i got chilli...... i was told that they would be forwarded on to me but i never got em! not that it bothered me, hes DL reg not kc..... all chis are perfect in there own sweet lil wayxx


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## mooberry (Jan 31, 2011)

missy_r said:


> I could have had both of mine with AKC papers, but I didn't want to pay the extra $. I also had no plans to show either of them in conformation, so I didn't see a use for papers. .


extra money that's illegal to have to pay extra money for papers!


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## chisrock (Jul 4, 2011)

I was charged a lot extra for kc reg then when i went to pic him up, no kc reg and no pedigree papers...... but hey thats in the past, he was worth it too me


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## svdreamer (Feb 20, 2010)

Nope, none of mine are papered or even within waving distance to being in standard. lol Most of mine are rescues so no idea what there backgrounds are, but I couldn't love them more.


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## svdreamer (Feb 20, 2010)

mooberry said:


> extra money that's illegal to have to pay extra money for papers!


It always costs more to get AKC papers, about $300 to $500 more.


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

Reputable breeders will have typically some mix of prices:
*Full AKC price (and it involves a much more detailed contract)
*Limited registration price (which is done again, by reputable breeders if, as an example, a female may be projected too small to breed)
*Pet only price (if the baby has perhaps a non-breed standard/conformation issue)-even if the parents are AKC registered and champions.


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## kimr (Nov 14, 2010)

Well, both are rescues, and one is a mix, so, no, no papers here...And it doesn't make a bit of difference in how I feel about either of them!


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I have one with AKC papers and one without. I also have other breeds that all have papers as well  The only one it really matters with is the Great Dane I show in AKC conformation. It would have mattered with my LC but his topline was roached so I decided to neuter him. Now it has leveled out...go figure, LOL


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

mooberry said:


> extra money that's illegal to have to pay extra money for papers!


Yes, this is true. BUT, breeders are fully allowed to withhold "full" papers on whatever dogs/puppies they want. If you are buying a dog with full papers / full registration, the dogs are often more. Not because they have full papers but because the only dogs sold with full papers are worth more, because they are considered show prospects/breeding prospects, etc. and their offspring can be registered with AKC. Hopefully that makes sense?


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

flippedstars said:


> Yes, this is true. BUT, breeders are fully allowed to withhold "full" papers on whatever dogs/puppies they want. If you are buying a dog with full papers / full registration, the dogs are often more. Not because they have full papers but because the only dogs sold with full papers are worth more, because they are considered show prospects/breeding prospects, etc. and their offspring can be registered with AKC. Hopefully that makes sense?



Does this mean that what Lion and Penny's breeder did was wrong? She was going to charge different prices for Limited Registration, Full, and no papers.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

missy_r said:


> Does this mean that what Lion and Penny's breeder did was wrong? She was going to charge different prices for Limited Registration, Full, and no papers.


Its "wrong" / against AKC rules and regulations, to charge more for limited registration papers, than they would for a "pet price" or whatever. But charging more for full registration is standard practice...that said, breeders should be very selective about who full registration is given to as it means the dog is able to be shown and bred from. For instance, my full registration pups were all around $1000-$1500. That said, I have not gone for "big name" breeders but instead have gone for smaller breeders with the lines I want. A big name breeder often charges $2000+ per male and $2500+ per female for full registration. My pet pups were all in the $500-$700 range, with limited registration papers. If I had wanted full registration on the one boy, it would have been an extra $250 for that breeder. Basically you are buying breeding rights to the dogs.


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## bayoumah (Nov 30, 2010)

hi my buster came as my birthday gift i was told i could recieve papers but never got around to it and hell be 1 year next month so luckiley i dont need them hes just fine as is


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## Lisajazzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Neither of mine have papers. If i were breeding or showing maybe but Pixel is spayed and rez will be neutered when he's old enough. They are pure pets.

Pixel has been with me through thick and thin since last October and papers wouldn't make a bit of difference to how I feel about her.


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## ~*Jessie*~ (Aug 8, 2007)

All 4 of my chihuahuas are AKC registered. My border collie is abca (american border collie association) registered which is what you want when buying a border collie from working lines.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

I think it's important to point out that papers don't mean the dog is of good quality or breeding quality. They only prove that the dog is a purebred. (And with so many forgeries out there, that can be suspect too.) You could have a 15 pound Chihuahua with floppy ears and a muzzle like a doberman and it could be AKC registered. Papers are NOT synonymous with quality!

It is similar to a title on a car. You could have a showroom beauty and a junkyard heap of junk. If you just looked at the title/paperwork on the car - you wouldn't have a clue as to the quality of the car. It just lists the make/model/year/owner. Papers are similar. They just prove lineage of the dog. NOT quality of the dog.

I think it's important to point that out. As some unscrupulous breeders will advertise AKC certified or other nonsense. AKC is ONLY a registry.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Brodysmom said:


> I think it's important to point out that papers don't mean the dog is of good quality or breeding quality. They only prove that the dog is a purebred. (And with so many forgeries out there, that can be suspect too.) You could have a 15 pound Chihuahua with floppy ears and a muzzle like a doberman and it could be AKC registered. Papers are NOT synonymous with quality!
> 
> It is similar to a title on a car. You could have a showroom beauty and a junkyard heap of junk. If you just looked at the title/paperwork on the car - you wouldn't have a clue as to the quality of the car. It just lists the make/model/year/owner. Papers are similar. They just prove lineage of the dog. NOT quality of the dog.
> 
> I think it's important to point that out. As some unscrupulous breeders will advertise AKC certified or other nonsense. AKC is ONLY a registry.



Very good point Tracy. It would be NICE if it indicated quality but it doesn't. Same with KC over in the UK and registries everywhere. All AKC or KC registration indicate are that the dogs are purebred nothing more.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

flippedstars said:


> Very good point Tracy. It would be NICE if it indicated quality but it doesn't. Same with KC over in the UK and registries everywhere. All AKC or KC registration indicate are that the dogs are purebred nothing more.


Yes, it just bugs the heck out of me when I see people bragging that their dog is REGISTERED. Big deal!  Papers are very important in the breeding and showing world. But otherwise - not so much.

Now if papers were only given to adequate representations of the breed (such as only AKC champions could be registered), then it would mean something! And obviously I'm a proponent for only healthy dogs being bred, so when I see someone's oversized 8 lb chi with obvious LP (skipping in the rear is a big clue) being advertised as a stud dog because he has papers - it annoys me. To say the least. :coolwink:


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## ~*Jessie*~ (Aug 8, 2007)

Brodysmom said:


> Yes, it just bugs the heck out of me when I see people bragging that their dog is REGISTERED. Big deal!  Papers are very important in the breeding and showing world. But otherwise - not so much.
> 
> Now if papers were only given to adequate representations of the breed (such as only AKC champions could be registered), then it would mean something! And obviously I'm a proponent for only healthy dogs being bred, so when I see someone's oversized 8 lb chi with obvious LP (skipping in the rear is a big clue) being advertised as a stud dog because he has papers - it annoys me. To say the least. :coolwink:


I totally agree!

It's SO easy to have a registered dog... breeders can even lie and say that their puppies from non-registered dogs are registered (by lying about the parents). 

AKC is only a registry and it doesn't mean that a dog is from a good breeding.


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## KayC (May 3, 2005)

Zoey has full AKC papers but is in no way standard....but still perfect to me.


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## mooberry (Jan 31, 2011)

I didn't think I would care that Bijoux couldn't be registered because of her colouring but now that i'm looking into agility it's a little bit sad that we can't enter CKC events : ( I would have liked to enter her within the points system..

Although being 600$ cheaper because of it was nice, and I love her either way but still one does dream...one day I'll have my show chi, but as when I become a shower and have my first champ I would want to be a breeder I guess we will have to wait until this is possible...

I wish all puppies were spayed before released from all breeders although pups would cost so much more money


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

flippedstars said:


> Its "wrong" / against AKC rules and regulations, to charge more for limited registration papers, than they would for a "pet price" or whatever. But charging more for full registration is standard practice...that said, breeders should be very selective about who full registration is given to as it means the dog is able to be shown and bred from. For instance, my full registration pups were all around $1000-$1500. That said, I have not gone for "big name" breeders but instead have gone for smaller breeders with the lines I want. A big name breeder often charges $2000+ per male and $2500+ per female for full registration. My pet pups were all in the $500-$700 range, with limited registration papers. If I had wanted full registration on the one boy, it would have been an extra $250 for that breeder. Basically you are buying breeding rights to the dogs.


Thank you, this was very informative. I am glad I read this, because I won't be recommending this breeder to anyone now. She wanted to charge extra for limited registration, and was also willing to give me full registration, no questions asked. The breeder should be more selective about who she gives breeding rights to.


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## mooberry (Jan 31, 2011)

missy_r said:


> Thank you, this was very informative. I am glad I read this, because I won't be recommending this breeder to anyone now. She wanted to charge extra for limited registration, and was also willing to give me full registration, no questions asked. The breeder should be more selective about who she gives breeding rights to.


this is 100% illegal all pups should be registered with the akc, that's awful that she tried to charge u for papers!


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## OurCheekyChihuahuas (Nov 18, 2009)

mooberry said:


> this is 100% illegal all pups should be registered with the akc, that's awful that she tried to charge u for papers!


I'm soo confused is this an American thing? It's not illegal here to breed puppies & not register them. Surely not every dog is registered hence puppies not being registered??


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## Hichi (May 22, 2011)

OurCheekyChihuahuas said:


> I'm soo confused is this an American thing? It's not illegal here to breed puppies & not register them. Surely not every dog is registered hence puppies not being registered??


I think other aren't meant to charge different prices but there's obv loop holes!

Wish there was some sort of rule on breeding here would save these bloody awful breeders who breed anything left right and centre even dogs that have endorsements on their pedigrees! Just screams scum to me!!


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

It is not illegal but we all wish that it was. It would stop unscrupulous and byb. 
LOTS of breeders here in the U.S. tell people that their pup "COULD" have been registered but they just did not fill out the papers or they forgot or the papers are "in the mail" (they never come). Papers being given to you that you choose to never complete registering is another story but if you were told could have, should have, but they did not, that is a big red flag to me.

Registering a litter is not expensive nor difficult with online registering. If someone is that lazy a breeder I'd not buy from them because frankly, I could not guarantee how lazy they were with the health, nutrition and care of my pup. 

More likely is that the dogs cannot be AKC registered. I am surprised (even on this board) for unsuspecting folks who paid nearly what I did (or what I paid) for my purebred, AKC registered girls by some puppy mill or byb with no guarantees, no papers, etc. We also have had several new "registries" that have popped up here in the U.S. As one of my breeders has said, I could register a stuffed animal/dog chew toy as a purebred chi and no one would question me. Many puppy mills around here register with APRI which is one of those registries.

Like I said before, papers or no papers, we all love our babies and think that they are perfect. That is not the issue. The issue is that it is false and just wrong to sell me a puppy billed as purebred and show or breeding quality and find out later (on places like this forum) that I was duped. No one is going to take back a pup that they love even if they could. Bad breeders know that.

Another issue is people being mislead or unknowingly falling for bad breeders made up stories or slick marketing tactics ("she is a VERY rare color", "he is going to be a tiny teacup", etc.).

So, that is my very soapbox way of saying all pups should have to be registered if they are to be sold!!


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## mooberry (Jan 31, 2011)

That's crazy in Canada it IS illegal to charge more to register a pup...I can't believe it isn't in the states!


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

I do not know if what I am saying if what you are referring. I do not mean to be confusing!

A registered, purebred pup in the U.S. certainly will cost more than one that is not (although, again, some people unwittingly pay the same).

A breeder will pay $25 + $2/puppy to register a litter. So, in the scheme of things that is nothing and no excuse for a breeder to use for not registering.

A breeder can then also offer a "pet only" price and this often comes with Limited AKC registration if from a reputable breeder.

So, if my girls had been show and breeding suitable, they would have cost between $1,500 and perhaps $3,000. One was sold at a pet only price, $500, but was given FULL AKC registration. She should not have at all! 
Since the other was from a more involved and knowledgeable breeder, she was not. She was offered with Limited AKC registration (I could never register a litter of hers with AKC) but they are both recognized as purebreds from lineages registered with AKC.

I have seen breeders use the Pet Only term and others Limited Registration but it means the same provided both are registered and you are offered Limited Registration. 

Otherwise, you are buying a pet with no papers/registration opportunity except the PAL which allows a series of photographs to be sent in and if the pup is deemed purebred, it receives the APL to be able say to compete in agility and such.


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## Aquarius (May 8, 2009)

Hichi said:


> I think other aren't meant to charge different prices but there's obv loop holes!
> 
> Wish there was some sort of rule on breeding here would save these bloody awful breeders who breed anything left right and centre even dogs that have endorsements on their pedigrees! Just screams scum to me!!


Heychis you have never posted pictures of all your dogs, would love to see them and what lines they come from:daisy:


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## svdreamer (Feb 20, 2010)

Only one of mine has papers, Billy, even though he is not to standard. I could have had them but I knew I was not going to show or breed him, so I just said I didn't need them. I did luck out in that I got him for only $75.


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## Hichi (May 22, 2011)

Aquarius said:


> Heychis you have never posted pictures of all your dogs, would love to see them and what lines they come from:daisy:



I assume you are speaking to me as you quoted me, but that's not my username, it's like me calling you Virgo 

I'll post a thread, so not to go off topic.


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## LadyJ (Aug 20, 2010)

The only one I've ever had that was AKC registered, Remington, grew up to weigh 12 pounds. Chiquita was a retired breeder with no papers. Kozanna came from a puppy mill, but was purported to be registered, no papers, of course. Lavender is a purebred, but was a rescue, so no papers.

As others have said, papers can be forged very easily and don't really mean much as far as what kind of dog it will be. I went to buy an AKC registered blonde cocker spaniel puppy one time and found a litter of very cute blonde/brown beagles - the obvious beagle daddy was running around in the yard with the blonde cocker mom.

It would be good if all puppies were registered just to know their lineage, but since I'm not going to show or breed, papers are not important. Papers certainly don't guarantee what the dog will look like when it's grown. Doesn't make the dogs any less appealing or mean that we love them any less. Couldn't love my sweet Lavender any more if she came with gold-plated registration papers or if I had paid thousands of dollars for her!

Jeanette


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