# Head Type & Bone Structure -pic heavy!



## PuppyKouture (Mar 29, 2015)

Hi everyone,

I'm fairly new to this forum and would love some thoughts from other chi owners. We recently added a new chi to our family for a total of 3! She's 12 wks old and her name is Kiki Chanel.

Here's my questions;
I normally am really good a distinguishing apple from 'deer' head shapes, however, this little girl has me pretty stumped. When we got her, her face was almost flat. Everyone thought she looked like a hello kitty cartoon but probably in the last few days her nose started to pop out more. I want everyone's opinion seeing how 99% of people who meet her comment on how she's soo apple and her breeder said she would be apple as well, but her stop isn't super defined so...I don't know! She also never stays still its hard to get a good look at her. I try to take pictures so I can get a better idea, but just like people, different camera angles make her profile look different. 

As far as her genetics, I believe she takes after her mother since they're both have the Merle on white pattern and have similar faces. On her mother's side, both her mother and grandmother were an apples with her grandmother having very pronounced 90 degree stop with a short nose and her mother having an average length nose but fairly defined stop. I couldn't tell what her mother's father was since I didn't see a pic of his profile. On her dad's side, there's all 'deer head' I believe. Not extreme deer though. More of the apple look but more of a mid to short length sloped nose...the types of deer that many people believe are apples if that makes sense. Lol.

Last question is, how can you tell a puppy's bone structure as far as small boned, average, large? In pictures, I feel like she looks way bigger than she is but then again, when they're puppies they're little that everything just looks small on. She also has loose skin of course which makes her look a little thicker but I don't want to make excuses for her and make people afraid I'll be defensive of what they say  I really just want honest opinions. 

P.s I apologize in advanced for adding so many pictures. She refuses to sit still so I just took a bunch hoping all together will give you guys a better idea on what she looks like!


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## Skippy (Mar 24, 2015)

She is cute! Looks like an "Apple head" to me, whatever that means... Apple heads and deer heads look so different to me, that I have a hard time understanding that they are the same breed.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

There are no such thing as Apple and Deer head Chihuahua, the only types of Chi are Long Coat and Smooth Coat.
The standard (UK version) calls for "Well rounded 'apple dome' skull, cheeks and jaws lean, muzzle moderately short, slightly pointed. Definite stop"
That is the correct head for a Chihuahua, anything else is not bred to standard. There is no standard for a 'deer headed' Chi, you will never see one in the show ring.
So there is no dividing line where this Chi is one thing and this one is another, but each dog is either close to the standard or not. (ie pet quality) When non standard dogs are bred together you do get certain characteristics together, so the longer legged, narrow body tends to accompany the narrow skull and longer muzzle with narrow ears. These are all faults that a good breeder would select against, breeding for the head described above, cobby body, large flaring ears, etc instead.
Your pup has an obvious stop and a nice wide muzzle. The muzzle will get longer as she grows, but it won't get narrow. Her skull is round, she doesn't have a bad head (what you would describe as Deer type)


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## PuppyKouture (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks guys! 

Yes, I know there's not officially 2 types of chihuahuas aka apple vs deer, but I didnt know how else to ask about her head type without describing it as an apple or deer. I'm also glad her stop looks defined. I guess it confused me since her nose slightly slops down just a tad and isn't perfectly straight. Her muzzle is also very wide like you mentioned so I'm glad that's a good sign. You'd think after already owning 2 chis I'd be an expert but it's been a while since my other 2 were this age. 

How about bone structure? Also, do you guys think there is any truth regarding the size of their paws as a young puppy being an indication of their adult size? And sorry again if I'm asking silly questions. I'm trying my best to ask without sounding ignorant. And don't worry, I won't ask you if you think she'll be a "teacup'' (I know there's no such thing ?)


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## Chiluv04 (Dec 19, 2013)

*Head Type &amp; Bone Structure -pic heavy!*

Do not feel bad in any way for asking questions, there is nothing wrong with asking. The AKC breed standard doesn't recognize different "types" of chihuahuas. A chihuahua is a chihuahua. And the breed standard describes an apple head chihuahua, though there are both deer and applehead chihuahuas this is just to separate the two head shapes. Both deer and applehead chi's can have an apple shaped dome and relatively short muzzle. Usually a deer head chi will have a more narrow muzzle and more of a slope where the "stop" should be. Even an applehead chi can be a pet quality chi, not having a perfect shaped dome or near 90 degree angle "stop."In my opinion your chi looks more like a pet quality applehead chi. Not a deer head. Deer head and appleheads though the same breed ARE structurally different. Deer heads are usually leggier and longer bodied. Whereas appleheads are usually either square bodied and not as tall. As far as weight, the AKC states that the breed should not exceed 6 lbs. That doesn't mean that larger pet quality chi's aren't purebred, just that a chi above 6 lbs can't compete in the ring. Bone structure is different for every chi. My 1st chi had thick bones. He's a very lean 7.6 lb adult. And my youngest is very dainty and small sturdy bones, she's a 3.6 lb adult. 

As for apple and deer. Although the deer head shape isn't considered permissible for show. There are still people who prefer their chi pets have that head shape. Especially since deer head chi's are usually on the larger side and more suitable for families. Some also prefer the look of the apple shaped dome and short muzzle. I personally have two of each. And only one of my 4 chi's falls within the AKC standard even though I have two appleheads less than 6 lbs.


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## PuppyKouture (Mar 29, 2015)

Here's another pic so you can see what I mean as far as different angles make her muzzle look different. In the pic her muzzle looks even longer than in real life but pictures don't lie right?! It's also really close up which IMO makes the proportions look more dramatic. Maybe I'm making excuses haha










As far as her bone structure, it's hard to say whether she's thin or thick boned. Her body sometimes looks long but she's also stretching herself out all the time for whatever reason. You know where they lay down and put their front legs forward and their hind legs straight back? Her parents where also really small. Father was 2lbs, mother was a previous show chi at 3.5lbs. At 12wks though Kiki is 42-43oz so huge and almost off the charts. Crazy because her parents and grandparents were also very tiny. But she has grown only a few oz in the last 2wks. Her breeder said she knows her lines extreamly well and they tend to not grow much more than a pound and a half after 12wks so we'll see if she ends up 4lbs. Not holding my breath! Lol. But that's more or less why I was asking about bone structure. That plus she's young and fairly fluffy for a SC, making it not so easy to distinguish how dense/ thick her frame is.


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## PuppyKouture (Mar 29, 2015)

And thx chiluv. I've been on many forums for years and I know how easy it is to judge and correct a new member, especially when they don't use all the correct terminology. And believe it or not, I know a ton about AKC standards and about chis in general, but little about forecasting or predicting the adult appearance and size based on the puppy's current state. 

I don't plan to show Kiki Chanel so I'm not overly concerned about every little detail, however, I am ...or was hoping for her to be on the small side with an apple shaped dome and muzzle since she will be the last chi we add to our family seeing how they now with 3 of them, they outnumber us humans in our household. She was also I guess you can say expensive. I originally thought she was very reasonably priced until I read what most people expect pay which is about 1/4 of what I paid for her ?? Naturally though, when you pay a good amount you're having a certain degree of expectations but of course we love her regardless.


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## Jessicashield (Feb 13, 2015)

kiki chanel is beautiful. I think her merle patch around her eye is stunning ive never saw this before  also I would agree that she has an apple shaped head.


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## PuppyKouture (Mar 29, 2015)

Aww thank u! ? She definitely is a unique. She also has a few patches on her body but very few. Most of the time, if a merle is mostly white with limited merle pattern, it's a result of being double merle, however, her whole pedigree is AKC registered and each one DNA tested for 5 generations and she is not a double merle. Just thought I'd throw that out there in case anyone was wondering.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I wasn't judging or correcting, just pointing out that there is no dividing line, not all Chis can be put in one box or another.
I have several pet quality Chis that have apple domes but long narrow muzzles, less defined stops etc so somewhere between the two extremes.
If what you are really asking is 'will my puppy grow up ugly' then the answer is no, she is very beautiful. She will be what she will be, you have no way of guessing when there are non-standard dogs in the background.
My tiny girl (3lbs as an adult) was a huge puppy, (randomly bred from pet quality parents)so the charts are not accurate all the time. Kiki may well end up smaller than you expect.


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## Darkly_Innocent (Jun 9, 2010)

She's a doll and she looks like an apple head to me!


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## susan davis (Mar 25, 2011)

Is it true that white/merle dogs have a greater chance of being deaf? Hopefully the breeder tested your little one. She is ADORABLE!!


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## Dorothy's Mom (Apr 8, 2015)

Definitely an apple head shape. The pic below is of my Dorothy. She is a deer head to a "T". You can definitely see the difference between her and your Chi.


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## Dorothy's Mom (Apr 8, 2015)

Wicked Pixie said:


> If what you are really asking is 'will my puppy grow up ugly' then the answer is no, she is very beautiful.


*Gasp*.....no puppy ever grows up to be ugly. I have never personally met an ugly dog. I don't think they exist. 

I have to agree with Wicked Pixie....she's beautiful!


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Having worked in Rescue I have met some very ugly dogs lol, still gorgeous and wonderful, but not blessed in the looks department.
All Chis are beautiful though, of course!


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## SkyAtBlue (Jul 25, 2010)

susan davis said:


> Is it true that white/merle dogs have a greater chance of being deaf? Hopefully the breeder tested your little one. She is ADORABLE!!


Yes it is true. White/merle/piebald coloured dogs are prone to being deaf. Here's a article that sums it up pretty well, it's written for bulldog owners. http://www.examiner.com/article/deafness-white-dogs. I think some breeds are more prone to others?


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## Jayda (Jun 15, 2012)

She is a very cute little girl and I love her coloring. I believe she is much more Apple than deer. What may be throwing you is her ears are high set and set far back on her head. Generally the lower part of the ears should be level with the middle of the eyes. This certainly doesn't keep her from being adorable! (-;


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