# "Say NO to Merle!"



## Fern's Mummy (May 26, 2009)

Hi Everyone!

As some of you may know, I'm new to the world of Chi's and I'm still in the learning stages. I've read so much info on the net and else where and one thing that keeps popping up is Merle. Some folk seem to think it's wrong to have and breed Merle Chi's, and others seem to think it's fine  I really don't understand and I'm totally confused  Can someone explain what the problem is with Merle Chi's? It's only a colour, isn't it? What's so bad about owning this colour Chi or breeding this colour? I really don't get it? On one website I saw it said _"Say NO to Merle!"_ Why?

Can anyone explain, please?

Thanks folks


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

It's kind of confusing. Someone here can tell you about the gene pool part of it. If you breed two dogs with merle in their background, your merle can be deaf or blind or be born with serious genetic issues or major problems. It's like breeding two dapples in the doxie world. I know the specifics of it but can't explain like some people on here can. I would be very careful if I ever got a merle. Would want to know history, parents, grandparents, etc.


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## roughhouse (Mar 1, 2009)

From what I understand, if a dog carries a merle gene it is expressed and the dog is a merle. A dog can not carry merle recessively. Unfortunately while that may be so, in lighter color dogs it can be very difficult to impossible to see the merle coloring, especially in adult dogs. Merle as a single copy gene only affects coloring. Merle as a double copy gene can cause numerous problems, including deafness and blindness. This is why it is important that a merle dog never be bred to another merle dog. There has been speculation that the merle gene on its own can cause the dog to be bigger than average and a few other things but I think that comes more from people breeding just for what they consider a marketable color and not adhering to standard. 

I don't have a problem with merle breeding as long as it is done by knowledgable breeders who health check and follow standard. The merle gene is in a lot of breeds and as long as the breeding is done responsibly it doesn't cause a problem.


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## Fern's Mummy (May 26, 2009)

Argh OK, I get it now 

Thanks for explaining!


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

It is a tad confusing isn't it!!!

From what I've read I would never buy one, my friend who is buying a Chihuahua pup soon loves the colouring, but has said she would not buy one either.

Barbara x


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## Fern's Mummy (May 26, 2009)

Rosiesmum said:


> It is a tad confusing isn't it!!!
> 
> From what I've read I would never buy one, my friend who is buying a Chihuahua pup soon loves the colouring, but has said she would not buy one either.
> 
> Barbara x


Yes, it sure is 

I don't think I'd buy one either. I'm not that keen on the colour anyways.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

~Belladonna~ said:


> Yes, it sure is
> 
> I don't think I'd buy one either. I'm not that keen on the colour anyways.


Neither am I, though can't really say why.

I suppose it's just personal preference 

Barbara x


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## Jetta (Mar 26, 2009)

roughhouse said:


> From what I understand, if a dog carries a merle gene it is expressed and the dog is a merle. A dog can not carry merle recessively. Unfortunately while that may be so, in lighter color dogs it can be very difficult to impossible to see the merle coloring, especially in adult dogs. Merle as a single copy gene only affects coloring. Merle as a double copy gene can cause numerous problems, including deafness and blindness. This is why it is important that a merle dog never be bred to another merle dog. There has been speculation that the merle gene on its own can cause the dog to be bigger than average and a few other things but I think that comes more from people breeding just for what they consider a marketable color and not adhering to standard.
> 
> I don't have a problem with merle breeding as long as it is done by knowledgable breeders who health check and follow standard. The merle gene is in a lot of breeds and as long as the breeding is done responsibly it doesn't cause a problem.


It was first assumed that the gene could not be carried recessivly but I've read recently that this is not the case and hence from the end of march puppies born of merle parents can not be registered in the UK Kennel Club even if there are pups in the litter that do not have the merle colour.

It took them a while to get the KC to realise it could be carried and not present which is why the new rule only applied to puppies born after March.

I'd never have a Merle dog of any breed because of the health issues but also just because it's not my taste, Dalmations look good with spots but I'm not keen on it in other breeds.

I showed Matt a picture of a very dappled chi and he (not knowing what Merle was) said "Errr what's wrong with it?"

It shouldn't have been bred into pedigree Chi's though.


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## Kioana (Mar 1, 2005)

i don't understand why people don't like them. I LOVE the color and I want one.
I'd buy one in a heart beat, you just have to buy a well bred one.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

The unfortunate thing is that people are NOT well breeding them in the UK. they saw a market for a "rare" colour and they are selling them as just that. they are also "faking" the colour on pedigree papers now too - saying they are blue's or blue and chocolate. someone being unaware of the pattern wouldn't know the difference. 

the other problem is that there are cryptic merles which are hiddern merles, they have the pattern as a young puppy but the pattern fades away and you can't see it. People being a novice could in effect want a merle and mate this cryptic merle to another merle to get a merle and would be doing a merle x merle mating.

They also do not test for the problems before breeding in the UK, which I think is an even bigger problem.

here are some links to the sites which can explain it more:
www.diademchihuahuas.50megs.com 
www.lsu.edu/deafness/baerexpl.htm
www.vmdb.org/cerf.html
www.kandeechihuahuas.com/merles/ftlowille.html
www.picassochis.com/merles.htm
www.akcchf.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=138
www.ashgi.org/color/eyedefects.htm

There is loads of reading one there.

The FCI will be changing the standard also in July banning the pattern too. The UK has banned it as have Australia and Canada. I am not 100% certain but I think there are some countries in Europe which haven't banned the breeding but have banned the pattern in the show ring.

Don't get me wrong, there are some good breeders of merles who test and who are very careful what they do but unfortunately they don't seem to do this in the UK.

I belive the last vote in the US was very close to being a ban but they can only vote on it every 5 years (I think)

There are merle poms and pugs now which are something which was also never seen.


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## Jetta (Mar 26, 2009)

If you want a cross by a cross, pay a lot less for it because it is a cross but don't pay a pedigree Chi price for a non pedigree pup and further encourage the irresponsible money making breeding of these pups.


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

i love the merles and would love to have one
but unfortunatly they cannot be registered here in the uk also yeah breeders want over the top prices for an unregistered pup saying its rare also seen one that says it comes with akc papers still dont think thats any use in the uk 

if i seen one for a reasonable price i would maybe go for it but i doubt that will happen here in the uk


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## Jetta (Mar 26, 2009)

mazza lovin my chi's said:


> i love the merles and would love to have one
> but unfortunatly they cannot be registered here in the uk also yeah breeders want over the top prices for an unregistered pup saying its rare also seen one that says it comes with akc papers still dont think thats any use in the uk
> 
> if i seen one for a reasonable price i would maybe go for it but i doubt that will happen here in the uk


Do you really think it's unfortunate that the UK KC banned them from being registered? They're clearly not pedigree surly it's a good thing even if you like them I love Loki but I'd never want non pedigree pups to be wrongly registered in a pedigree breed.


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## Jetta (Mar 26, 2009)

Just thought I'd add I didn't that to sound bad just wondered if you thought the ban was a bad thing I know some like them but apart from merle breeders I've not known anyone to dissagree with them not being registered here any more. KC papers aren't needed for a pet really anyway only for show or breeding and to give better assurance of their pedigree so I think the merles being banned is necessry for the majoirty to better avoid the genes and their associated issues. It of course doesn't stop those who do want them from breeding them though but might help avoid the 'rare' high price sales done just for the money.


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

im quite indifferent to it i understand it had to be done for the good of the breed but as ive said before im not right into this breed standered breed ethics and stuff not against it either but i only go on my personal preferences and ive loved every merle ive seen my 2 chis are full pedigree kc registered pups but i never bought them for that reason

i just go with my heart and if i came acrossed a reasonably priced merle that i liked yes id prob want it

but im not against the bann and im not for the bann im indifferent and just like the look of merles


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## roughhouse (Mar 1, 2009)

Jetta said:


> It was first assumed that the gene could not be carried recessivly but I've read recently that this is not the case and hence from the end of march puppies born of merle parents can not be registered in the UK Kennel Club even if there are pups in the litter that do not have the merle colour.
> 
> It took them a while to get the KC to realise it could be carried and not present which is why the new rule only applied to puppies born after March.
> 
> ...


I have read that too. I don't believe that though and many others are skeptical too. In all other breeds the merle gene is a dominant gene. It can not be carried without expression. What is more likely than it suddenly appearing in dogs with no merle parents only merle lines is that one of the parents was a cryptic merle. Cryptic merles are a lot more common in chihuahuas that most other breeds because of the many colors a chihuahua comes in. A chihuahua who is predominantly white and has cream or fawn markings that was born of a merle parent can very likely be a merle dog who does not appear to express the gene. You would assume that this meant the dog only carried the gene when in fact the dog does express the gene but the markings are obscured by the absence of color in the coat. Merling only shows on pigmented areas of the coat because it is essentially a pigment fading gene. When the coat is already without pigment or the pigment present is already very light it can be impossible to detect. Many other breeds are successfully bred with the merle gene. It is just a risky business without knowledge and willingness to test for the gene if the dog comes from merle lines. Not because it can be carried recessively but because the dog could be a cryptic merle.

Another big reason why merle is so controversial in the chi world is because the color is a rather recent addition to the variety of colors a chi can come in and there is a lot of speculation that this is due to crossbreeding and paper hanging. I can see this as very possible, especially since small breeds, such as the dachshund, are known to be crossed with chis and they are commonly found in the merle pattern (dapple). It wouldn't take much to breed out the looks from the dachshund but keep the merle pattern.


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## roughhouse (Mar 1, 2009)

Oh and to clear up my view on them. I plan to own a merle chi someday. I will buy from a responsible breeder but it is still a registerable color here and I really like the look.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

What worries me in chihuahuas is that the amount of colours which they already come in - breeds which have merles don't tend to have lots of colours like chihuahuas do. 

According to merle breeders it arrived from being a genetic mutation however I had never seen one until the last 8 years or so.


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

I must admit im a merle lover!


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## gabrielsbelle (May 31, 2009)

Hi Everyone,

We hope that we can give some sort of insight...

Historically,...

All dogs carry the merle gene, some breeds have an active gene and others have dormant genes. Chihuahua's carry a dormant merle gene.

if there is a dormant gene it can not just switch itself on it has to be activated by a an active merle gene. 

The only way to activate the merel gene is to introduce a breed / dog that has an active merel gene. So if chi's only have dormant genes then it had to be a breed that has an active merle gene, for example dachshund. 

And so the merle gene was activated.... those puppies that were merleMm were then bred to a non-merle M+ (pure chi) and then those were again bred to another pure chi and so on. Over the last 30 - 40 years selective breeding with merle and non-merle dogs have created the pure merle chi. But in essence they are ultimately still cross breeds albeit very far back.

As already been mentioned previously, merle dogs of all breeds have associated health problems for example, deafness and blindness.

We hope this sheds a little light on the subject, ofcourse we are happy to answer any questions you may have.....


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2009)

I have to say I like the merles too, and not ALL merle breeders are bad breeders, I know of some who are very carefull about their breeding, and all are tested etc.

The people I cant stand are those advertising non registered pups stating theyre rare blues, or chocolates, and asking silly money.

Even seen one advert saying "rare all black chihuahua" and asking over a grand for non-registered.

I would now never buy a chihuahua from someone I dont know, as they will tell you all kinds of bull if you dont know them. and I feel if you take time to REALLY get to know the breeder, and find the good breeders, it is worth years and years of waiting to know your going to get a good chi, and not just be told what the breeder THINKS you want to hear.
I dont care if it takes me ten years to find my show chihuahua, I am prepared to wait and only get from a breeder I have got to know over time.


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## SinaBChis (Feb 23, 2008)

I obviously love merles being as I have 2 myself...


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## Kioana (Mar 1, 2005)

some merle are too over marked if that makes sense lol 

merlie and tequila are nicely marked

not sure who said it but yea not all breeders of merles are bad like i said in a post that if you get a well bred one i don't see anything wrong with them


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## Jesslan (Jul 18, 2008)

Can someone tell me what the different color shades of merles are? The only one I know is blue.


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## mom 2 Nacho BellGrande (Mar 8, 2009)

I have a red merle longhair and everyone that meets him loves his coloring


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## jazzman (Apr 8, 2009)

Mateo was listed as 'Chochlate and Tan Merle", which is a pretty accurate
description.


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## roughhouse (Mar 1, 2009)

Jesslan said:


> Can someone tell me what the different color shades of merles are? The only one I know is blue.


Any color of chi can be merle. Merle is a modifier. It randomly dilutes the color the chi would have been without the modifier. I think the most common ones that you see or hear about are red, blue, and chocolate. This is mostly because you can see the merling better. People who breed *for* the merle coloring (I don't mean everyone who breeds merle dogs, there is a difference between breeding a dog that is merle and breeding a dog that is merle for the sole purpose of creating more merle dogs) want the merling to show so they tend to breed to dogs with dark pigmented fur because then the merling is more dramatic of an effect. The possibilities are only limited by the colors that a chi comes in, which as we know there really aren't any limitations.


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## Fern's Mummy (May 26, 2009)

Jetta said:


> It was first assumed that the gene could not be carried recessivly but I've read recently that this is not the case and *hence from the end of march puppies born of merle parents can not be registered in the UK Kennel Club even if there are pups in the litter that do not have the merle colour.*
> 
> It took them a while to get the KC to realise it could be carried and not present which is why the new rule only applied to puppies born after March.


Wow, really? So basically if the pups parents are merle then the pups can't be registered (even if they're not merle in colour)? I suppose this makes absolute sense though because of X breeding 2 merles.


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## Fern's Mummy (May 26, 2009)

mazza lovin my chi's said:


> i love the merles and would love to have one
> but unfortunatly they cannot be registered here in the uk *also yeah breeders want over the top prices for an unregistered pup saying its rare* also seen one that says it comes with akc papers still dont think thats any use in the uk
> 
> if i seen one for a reasonable price i would maybe go for it but i doubt that will happen here in the uk


I suppose it's a bit like breeders who sell "teacups, tiny teacups, tiny toys" and all that nonsense and say they're rare/hard to come by


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## Fern's Mummy (May 26, 2009)

Jesslan said:


> Can someone tell me what the different color shades of merles are? The only one I know is blue.


How strange lol, I was just about to post this same question  I've only seen the blue and chocolate colour merles on this site and else where. Do they come in other colours?


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## WellysMummy (Jun 29, 2009)

I was thinking of getting a blue merle chihuahua however I got told that it was a really bad gene also I wanted KC however you will NEVER find a KC blue merle as apperntly the gene is wrong =/


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I see Merle's in the ring here in the US so they have to be AKC registered to be in the ring. I think it is becoming accepted although there are lots of show people that are against it.


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## avbjessup (Apr 20, 2009)

For the record, I think the merle coloring is stunning!


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## Radar_Love (Dec 19, 2007)

I have two Merles myself. I love them. I searched over 3 years to find my first Merle. Rebel is my Blue Merle longcoat, and Jazmyn is my Fawn Merle shortcoat....


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

avbjessup said:


> For the record, I think the merle coloring is stunning!


me toooooo
i agree ann :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

Radar_Love said:


> I have two Merles myself. I love them. I searched over 3 years to find my first Merle. Rebel is my Blue Merle longcoat, and Jazmyn is my Fawn Merle shortcoat....


i love them both 
rebel is stunning i love him


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## Radar_Love (Dec 19, 2007)

Thanks so much...


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

heres my new baby hes a choc merle his mummy was merle and daddy was black and tan 

heres me with him and his mummy and a pic of him you can see the merle on the front of him


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## Radar_Love (Dec 19, 2007)

He is a cutie! His markings are quite discreet, never seen one with such discreet markings. Most merles are marked loudly. My Jazmyn, being a Fawn Merle, her merling is still very visible, but you can see it better depending on the lighting. Most Fawn Merles lose the merling as they grow up, they become phantom merles.


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## katsrevenge (Nov 24, 2008)

Cute little dogs, guys.  

Love the coloring.. but I'd never buy one from a breeder. Maybe if I found one in a shelter and we clicked... but that's it. Too many health issues with that coloring, even 'healthy' merles can have small eyes, vision and hearing issues... I'm glad the British banned it from registering, last I heard Canada was thinking of doing the same thing (with a few breeds) and I can hope the US follows suite. (Interestingly enough, I read about this on a AmStaff site; they had a recent merle wave too. The crossing probably occurred around the same time.)


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## Jesslan (Jul 18, 2008)

I don't think that I ever really thought about the merle color either way... until we adopted Jaeran. LOL I can't imagine him any other color! hehe He is just so precious.


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

Jesslan said:


> I don't think that I ever really thought about the merle color either way... until we adopted Jaeran. LOL I can't imagine him any other color! hehe He is just so precious.


i think you should post a pic of that cutie here x


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## Jesslan (Jul 18, 2008)

I'll never turn down a request! 










Edit:

PS I'm dying to know what color merle he is. I don't *think* he's 'blue'. The lighter color is actually a very light tan. Like his legs only a lighter color. Anyone have any thoughts?


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## avbjessup (Apr 20, 2009)

He's just gorgeous!!!!! I think merle is the most stunning coloration of all. Just beautiful!


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

Jesslan said:


> I'll never turn down a request!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thank you i love him he is absoulutly stunning xxx


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

> PS I'm dying to know what color merle he is. I don't *think* he's 'blue'. The lighter color is actually a very light tan. Like his legs only a lighter color. Anyone have any thoughts?


id say hes either a blue or silver merle xx


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## Jesslan (Jul 18, 2008)

mazza lovin my chi's said:


> thank you i love him he is absoulutly stunning xxx


Thank you Mandy!  I can't believe we got blessed with such a complete sweetheart and beautiful to boot. hehe


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## wild.irish.rose (Jul 7, 2011)

*my merles*

:hello1:i have 2 merles.a true blue merle male named seven n a 4wk old i havent brought home yet.shes in my avatar n my signature.she started out as a lite blue merle but over the last 4wks shes started 2 turn red.the breeders named her misty but im gonna change that.funny story:i,usually, use the same breeder-trish.ive bought 3 chis from her.i started looking around 4 a red merle n found one w/gail(her mom just had a litter n 4 were merles-3 blue n 1 red)i went 2 put a deposit on red merle n some1 had already put down a deposit.a few days ago i went 2 trishs 2 visit n she told me she was getting a new pup.she came back w/pics n it was the red merle LOL.i wrote gail to tell her n laugh.she ended up sending pics of a blue merle that has started to turn red-my no name misty.:blob5::blob4:still dont have name.any ideas?:cya:


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## pinkglitterybunny (Jul 26, 2008)

ahh! I missed all the pics! more more more!  x


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## jazzman (Apr 8, 2009)

I sez Yes to merles, I doez.


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## CoverTune (Jul 1, 2011)

gabrielsbelle said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> We hope that we can give some sort of insight...
> 
> ...


Can you cite a source on this? I have never in my life heard of a "dormant gene", only dominant and recessive.

It's an alright colour, but my issue with it is that somehow the colour was introduced to the breed and therefore, merle Chihuahuas are not 100% pure Chihuahua.

And for the record, I haven't got anything against mixed breeds, but if I'm wanting a pure Chi, then I don't want to be sold a mix.. and vice versa.


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## wild.irish.rose (Jul 7, 2011)

*dominant gene*

:hello1:mayb it was mis-spelled-merle is a dominant gene.im taking a course in the genetics of chi breeding.also,merle isnt a color-its a pattern.theres something in the gene that lightens patches of color.its that gene that can cause problems-hearing,site,size.but,that happens more frequently w/piiebalds,also.as long as 1 of the parents is definitely a merle or phantom merle n the other definitely isnt things should b okay.but,nothings 100%.:daisy:


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## Terri (Aug 21, 2009)

I say yes too as long as they are healthy and bred properly.
They are beautiful and we have some wee crackers on this forum as well! x


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## mimismam (Oct 8, 2011)

Hi I'm new to this board and own a year old merle chihuahua called Mimi and can assure you that she is beautiful and healthy 
There is an awful lot of controversy about the merle in the chihuahua.
There is proof on the internet that the merle did exist way back and I believe that the kc here in the UK do not allow merles to be registered in UK because of the gene being semi lethal (poor breeding), breeding merle to merle and creating double merle which could be deaf or blind.
My believe is that merle are no more dangerous to breed then other Chihuahuas in that only responsible experienced breeders should be breeding.
Not allowing merle to be kc registered may make people register them as say tri coloured thus making it harder for people to know they may well be breeding merle to merle.
my merle is dog lover registered with pedigree and it states she is a merle, anybody that buys puppies from me will be told of the facts of merle breeding.
anyway check out my lovely girl here  .
Pictures by sweettalkin - Photobucket


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