# Who would breed a 2.5 pound chihuahua?



## hazeyj

Just found an ad on epupz for tiny tiny puppies and both mum and dad were 2.5 pounds each??????

Misty is 3 and a bit pounds and she is far too small to breed.

Flabbergasted.....http://www.epupz.co.uk/clas/viewdetails.asp?view=261951

Im not sure if its ok to post link?


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## Guest

far too small to breed. 
Another breder just after money, trying to sell small pups

another with the attitude of the smaller the better.

people are still stoopid enough to fall for it though


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## TLI

It's far from likely that Mom or Dad weighs 2.5 lbs. Those are just sells tactics. A 2.5 lb. female would never survive giving birth. About the smallest female that can be bred is 4 lbs. And that's still risky. Most use a smaller male/stud. Usually about 3/3.5 lbs.


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## rcj1095

Teresa is right in most cases but here's what can happen... I know, personally, of a couple of chi females that gave birth at 3 lbs. For the record, I don't agree with this at all but I know for a fact this is what they do. They watch them closely through the whole pregnancy. They usually only have 2 pups inside of them. The vet schedules a c-section according to ultrasounds and the Mom actually never goes into labor. It's a proven practice with breeders that are obsesses with having "tiny's". Now, the pups that I know of have all lived and been healthy and just fine. I know of two breeders that do this (I will not mention any names) and have not lost a Mom or pup yet. It shocks me that their vets condone this as well but they do. So, yes it does happen. Now, Teresa may be right. This may be just advertising but what I just described does go on. I've seen it. Scary for the Mama for sure. Those pups are born so small it's amazing they survive.

My breeder friend doesn't even like to breed any female that isn't 5 lbs. at least. She just doesn't feel comfortable with smaller than that. Her studs are between 3 and 4 lbs. usually. She can't believe that some breeders do that either!!!


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## Brodysmom

Also, I think that people like to under-estimate what their Chi's weigh. Especially if they are selling puppies. I have seen people say, "oh she's just 3 pounds" and heck NO WAY that dog is 3 pounds. ha ha. 

But I don't agree with breeding 3 pounders and then having scheduled c-sections. You'd have to sell the pups for thousands just to break even on that! Very expensive and why would you put your dog at such risk? Just for a puppy or two? The almighty dollar and public demand is a powerful thing.

Brodysmom


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## TLI

rcj1095 said:


> Teresa is right in most cases but here's what can happen... I know, personally, of a couple of chi females that gave birth at 3 lbs. For the record, I don't agree with this at all but I know for a fact this is what they do. They watch them closely through the whole pregnancy. They usually only have 2 pups inside of them. The vet schedules a c-section according to ultrasounds and the Mom actually never goes into labor. It's a proven practice with breeders that are obsesses with having "tiny's". Now, the pups that I know of have all lived and been healthy and just fine. I know of two breeders that do this (I will not mention any names) and have not lost a Mom or pup yet. It shocks me that their vets condone this as well but they do. So, yes it does happen. Now, Teresa may be right. This may be just advertising but what I just described does go on. I've seen it. Scary for the Mama for sure. Those pups are born so small it's amazing they survive.
> 
> My breeder friend doesn't even like to breed any female that isn't 5 lbs. at least. She just doesn't feel comfortable with smaller than that. Her studs are between 3 and 4 lbs. usually. She can't believe that some breeders do that either!!!


Robin, I'm sure there are some breeders that will risk that. But any Vet that participates should be put out of practice. That is nothing less than playing with fire. The pregnancy alone would be stressful for a 3 lb. female, then the anesthesia and surgery. 

The lady that I know that show breeds Chi's says that she doesn't even like to breed her 4 lb. females because they have problems more times than not. They usually only throw a few pups too and can easily end up having a c-section. She prefers 5 lb. females for breeding.

Also, I would have to see these 2.5/3 lb. females on a scale to believe that they are being bred. I'm not doubting your word at all, but doubting the shady breeder that is making that claim. 

When I read those ads I take it with a grain of salt. I'm sure some crazy people try this practice for the mighty dollar, but I'd say 99% of those ads are banking on the lack of knowledge the general public has on Chihuahua breeding.


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## TLI

Brodysmom said:


> Also, I think that people like to under-estimate what their Chi's weigh. Especially if they are selling puppies. I have seen people say, "oh she's just 3 pounds" and heck NO WAY that dog is 3 pounds. ha ha.
> 
> Brodysmom


You are spot on with that statement Tracy! :wink:


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## sullysmum

I couldnt see a 2.5 bitch even carrying 5 pups!


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## TLI

sullysmum said:


> I couldnt see a 2.5 bitch even carrying 5 pups!


Not even possible.


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## rcj1095

TLI said:


> Robin, I'm sure there are some breeders that will risk that. But any Vet that participates should be put out of practice. That is nothing less than playing with fire. The pregnancy alone would be stressful for a 3 lb. female, then the anesthesia and surgery.
> 
> The lady that I know that show breeds Chi's says that she doesn't even like to breed her 4 lb. females because they have problems more times than not. They usually only throw a few pups too and can easily end up having a c-section. She prefers 5 lb. females for breeding.
> 
> Also, I would have to see these 2.5/3 lb. females on a scale to believe that they are being bred. I'm not doubting your word at all, but doubting the shady breeder that is making that claim.
> 
> When I read those ads I take it with a grain of salt. I'm sure some crazy people try this practice for the mighty dollar, but I'd say 99% of those ads are banking on the lack of knowledge the general public has on Chihuahua breeding.


I know it's awful. I think most people are lying also but the two that I know of, I have seen myself. It's shocking Teresa. The vets that do it should absolutely be out of business. They must be in it for the dollar. The two that my breeder and I are familiar with were 3 lbs. not 2.5 but still. Crazy. I don't hardly believe any of the ads anymore. They all say "will be small" cuz they want the attention of the buyer. Not everyone wants a small chi also. Another thing, everybody's perception of "small" is different. I'll see ads that say will be small, 6 lbs. full grown. Well anybody that knows chi's knows that's at the top of the scales, that is not small. My breeder has only had to have a couple c-sections in 18 years of breeding. She uses 5 lb. females like I mentioned above and if they do have a section, that's it. They get spayed on the spot. She has never lost a Mom, thank goodness. I think in all her years, she's only lost one or two pups also. Boy, I guess everybody has a different idea of what breeding is. I'll stick with my breeder's practices as she puts out amazing puppies and is ethical beyond belief!!!


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## rcj1095

TLI said:


> Not even possible.


ABSOLUTELY impossible!!!


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## TLI

rcj1095 said:


> I know it's awful. I think most people are lying also but the two that I know of, I have seen myself. It's shocking Teresa. The vets that do it should absolutely be out of business. They must be in it for the dollar. The two that my breeder and I are familiar with were 3 lbs. not 2.5 but still. Crazy. I don't hardly believe any of the ads anymore. They all say "will be small" cuz they want the attention of the buyer. Not everyone wants a small chi also. Another thing, everybody's perception of "small" is different. I'll see ads that say will be small, 6 lbs. full grown. Well anybody that knows chi's knows that's at the top of the scales, that is not small. My breeder has only had to have a couple c-sections in 18 years of breeding. She uses 5 lb. females like I mentioned above and if they do have a section, that's it. They get spayed on the spot. She has never lost a Mom, thank goodness. I think in all her years, she's only lost one or two pups also. Boy, I guess everybody has a different idea of what breeding is. I'll stick with my breeder's practices as she puts out amazing puppies and is ethical beyond belief!!!



Yeah, you just have to be very careful these days when choosing a breeder. I always say do your research before buying. That way you know what you are looking at when you look. So many breeders take the runt from their litters and advertise them as "Tiny Teacups." People buy in on that and will pay top dollar for them. Then when they are 18 months old they end up weighing 5/6 lbs. Their adult size is made up of way more than just 2 tiny parents. 2 tiny parents doesn't always equal a tiny pup. At birth yes, at full growth, not always. You can get a tiny full grown Chi out of two average sized parents, so it's just a crap shoot really. Some breeders know their lines so well, and have been breeding so long that they know which male and female will throw what. Not a perfect science, but they get real good at gauging. 

A 6 lb. Chi is on the larger end of the standard, but still small. Much smaller than many think. 4/5 lb. Chi's are real small, and 2/3 lbers. are tiny.

I always say if a 4 lb. Chi looks big to someone, maybe they need to look into buying a hamster. :lol: All of mine are on the lower end of the standard, and even I think a 4 lb. Chi is very little. I've seen 5 lbers. that I would never guess to be over 4 lbs.

You can look at Tracy's Brody for instance. Some pics make Chi's look larger, but when you see pics of someone holding them, or next to something, you really get a better idea of their size. Anyway, Brody weighs 4 lbs., and he is clearly a very small Chi.

I just chalk the whole thing up to so many misconceptions regarding Chi size.


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## rcj1095

TLI said:


> Yeah, you just have to be very careful these days when choosing a breeder. I always say do your research before buying. That way you know what you are looking at when you look. So many breeders take the runt from their litters and advertise them as "Tiny Teacups." People buy in on that and will pay top dollar for them. Then when they are 18 months old they end up weighing 5/6 lbs. Their adult size is made up of way more than just 2 tiny parents. 2 tiny parents doesn't always equal a tiny pup. At birth yes, at full growth, not always. You can get a tiny full grown Chi out of two average sized parents, so it's just a crap shoot really. Some breeders know their lines so well, and have been breeding so long that they know which male and female will throw what. Not a perfect science, but they get real good at gauging.
> 
> A 6 lb. Chi is on the larger end of the standard, but still small. Much smaller than many think. 4/5 lb. Chi's are real small, and 2/3 lbers. are tiny.
> 
> I always say if a 4 lb. Chi looks big to someone, maybe they need to look into buying a hamster. :lol: All of mine are on the lower end of the standard, and even I think a 4 lb. Chi is very little. I've seen 5 lbers. that I would never guess to be over 4 lbs.
> 
> You can look at Tracy's Brody for instance. Some pics make Chi's look larger, but when you see pics of someone holding them, or next to something, you really get a better idea of their size. Anyway, Brody weighs 4 lbs., and he is clearly a very small Chi.
> 
> I just chalk the whole thing up to so many misconceptions regarding Chi size.


Perfectly said. I know I had misconceptions until I really studied it. I've learned a lot from you and a ton from my breeder friend. It really is a cool subject. More people are ill informed or not informed at all regarding size. 

I agree with how you characterized sizes also. I truly thought Coco was the smallest dog I would ever have (4 lbs.) until dear Bambi came into our lives. That's when my true education came in. Bambi's parents were average size chi's T. Mom 5 lbs. Dad 4 lbs. She and her brother were the only ones in the litter and very small. She had a heart murmur but her brother is thriving at 2.5 lbs. and healthy as a horse. Figure that out? A five lb. chi mom that throws 4-5 average pups a litter having two "tiny's"? No rhyme or reason. It's really nature taking its course. I love all the knowledge I've acquired on this forum and with my breeder. This breed fascinates me and I feel so lucky that my friend "gave" me Coco and got me into these amazing little beings. Yea, Brody is small and on the thin side (which always makes them appear smaller to me). Chloe is a chunk and feels big to me but she only weighs 2.7 lbs. now but she's built cobbier. I think Lily is going to be tall and thin like Coco. I might be wrong but she's got the small frame. It's fun having Chloe's cobby build cuz I haven't had a chi like that yet. I just love her little chubby butt swaggering all over the place. Where do you think Lily will end up? Her parents were average and her and her brother were born much smaller than the others. She seems to be growing on target. I'm guessing about 4 lbs. or so unless she takes a major growth spurt (which we totally know can happen).


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## Rosiesmum

TLI said:


> Robin, I'm sure there are some breeders that will risk that. But any Vet that participates should be put out of practice. That is nothing less than playing with fire. The pregnancy alone would be stressful for a 3 lb. female, then the anesthesia and surgery.


I agree wholeheartedly with you.

Alas there will always be breeders who exploit their dogs, breed to small, from their girls first season, etc etc.


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## N*T*M*4U

Brodysmom said:


> Also, I think that people like to under-estimate what their Chi's weigh. Especially if they are selling puppies. I have seen people say, "oh she's just 3 pounds" and heck NO WAY that dog is 3 pounds. ha ha.
> 
> But I don't agree with breeding 3 pounders and then having scheduled c-sections. You'd have to sell the pups for thousands just to break even on that! Very expensive and why would you put your dog at such risk? Just for a puppy or two? The almighty dollar and public demand is a powerful thing.
> 
> Brodysmom



LOL....OMG...you said it....I went to check out some puppies before and the breeder told me they are under 1 lb...when I saw the puppies they are like 3 lbs or more..LOL....


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## Rosiesmum

N*T*M*4U said:


> LOL....OMG...you said it....I went to check out some puppies before and the breeder told me they are under 1 lb...when I saw the puppies they are like 3 lbs or more..LOL....


Not so long ago I went to see a litter of Chi's and it was much the same story...and it was from what would be considered a reputable breeder!!!

I apreciate people who show are not going to sell their best pups to pet homes, but I don't think it's unfair to expect them to be honest about the size 

We once went to view a young Papillon bitch and she was enormous, breeder just wanting to sell on a large brood bitch that could not be bred from again 

If you KNOW you are going to see large Chi pups fair enough, but when you are misled....it's annoying.


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## N*T*M*4U

Rosiesmum said:


> Not so long ago I went to see a litter of Chi's and it was much the same story...and it was from what would be considered a reputable breeder!!!
> 
> I apreciate people who show are not going to sell their best pups to pet homes, but I don't think it's unfair to expect them to be honest about the size
> 
> We once went to view a young Papillon bitch and she was enormous, breeder just wanting to sell on a large brood bitch that could not be bred from again
> 
> If you KNOW you are going to see large Chi pups fair enough, but when you are misled....it's annoying.


Yup so annoying...It's happened to me like 2 times...I drove like 2 hours each time....on top of that sometime they have old pictures too...


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## TLI

rcj1095 said:


> Perfectly said. I know I had misconceptions until I really studied it. I've learned a lot from you and a ton from my breeder friend. It really is a cool subject. More people are ill informed or not informed at all regarding size.
> 
> I agree with how you characterized sizes also. I truly thought Coco was the smallest dog I would ever have (4 lbs.) until dear Bambi came into our lives. That's when my true education came in. Bambi's parents were average size chi's T. Mom 5 lbs. Dad 4 lbs. She and her brother were the only ones in the litter and very small. She had a heart murmur but her brother is thriving at 2.5 lbs. and healthy as a horse. Figure that out? A five lb. chi mom that throws 4-5 average pups a litter having two "tiny's"? No rhyme or reason. It's really nature taking its course. I love all the knowledge I've acquired on this forum and with my breeder. This breed fascinates me and I feel so lucky that my friend "gave" me Coco and got me into these amazing little beings. Yea, Brody is small and on the thin side (which always makes them appear smaller to me). Chloe is a chunk and feels big to me but she only weighs 2.7 lbs. now but she's built cobbier. I think Lily is going to be tall and thin like Coco. I might be wrong but she's got the small frame. It's fun having Chloe's cobby build cuz I haven't had a chi like that yet. I just love her little chubby butt swaggering all over the place. Where do you think Lily will end up? Her parents were average and her and her brother were born much smaller than the others. She seems to be growing on target. I'm guessing about 4 lbs. or so unless she takes a major growth spurt (which we totally know can happen).


Oh don't feel bad, I was so in the dark about anything Chi when I got Lexie. I hate to admit that too, because I did it all backwards. I bought my first Chi, then did the research. Hind sights 20/20, but I made sure to know more facts before getting my second. I don't think people are wrong for not doing research beforehand, some people just don't realize how much info. there is. I was one of those people. I didn't even know puppy mills existed when I got Lexie. 

What you are mentioning about Bambi's parents being average sized and having 2 tiny pups is very believable to me. I have seen it happen numerous times. So many are under the assumption that if Mom & Dad are on the larger end, they can't have tiny pups. So not true. They will also probably have some other sizes in the litters as well. Like I mentioned, it's all based on genetics, and if the lines are well known they can come pretty close to telling you the pups adult weight. There are larger pups that end up on the smaller end of the scale too. I always say, a 2 oz. newborn pup doesn't mean a tiny adult. They can turn out the largest of their litter mates.

Another thing with size too is what people consider small. Some think tall and thin is small, others view the shorter/compact as being small. Personally I think shorter/compact is small even if they do have some bulk to them. Standing beside a tall thin Chi, the shorter/compact Chi is going to look much smaller. I guess it all boils down to preference really.

Moni's TucTuc weighs right at 4 lbs., and even though he's built more stocky, he is a little fella' too. If you stood him beside a taller 3 lb. Chi, he isn't going to appear much difference in size. There are just so many variables when deciphering size. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Chloe tops out at 5 lbs. Lily will probably top out somewhere just under Chloe because she has a smaller bone structure. She doesn't appear to me as if she'll be tall. But of course she's still young, so only time will tell.



Rosiesmum said:


> I agree wholeheartedly with you.
> 
> Alas there will always be breeders who exploit their dogs, breed to small, from their girls first season, etc etc.


That mighty dollar can bring out the worst in some, can't it!?! Sad that there are people that find living beings to be a cash ticket. 



N*T*M*4U said:


> LOL....OMG...you said it....I went to check out some puppies before and the breeder told me they are under 1 lb...when I saw the puppies they are like 3 lbs or more..LOL....


This is a VERY common practice. It will happen more times than not. Most breeders that are being honest about their pups weights will be happy to put them on a scale for you in person, or in pictures. But even then you have to be certain they aren't old pics as you mentioned below.



Rosiesmum said:


> Not so long ago I went to see a litter of Chi's and it was much the same story...and it was from what would be considered a reputable breeder!!!
> 
> I appreciate people who show are not going to sell their best pups to pet homes, but I don't think it's unfair to expect them to be honest about the size
> 
> We once went to view a young Papillon bitch and she was enormous, breeder just wanting to sell on a large brood bitch that could not be bred from again
> 
> If you KNOW you are going to see large Chi pups fair enough, but when you are misled....it's annoying.


I agree. Why be misleading about their size? Do they think people are blind and crazy? It is perfectly acceptable for someone looking for a Chi to want them within standard size. And people get a bad rap for that too. So many will pass judgment because someone actually has the "nerve" to care if their Chi is under 6 lbs. If they wanted a larger breed, they'd seek one out.



N*T*M*4U said:


> Yup so annoying...It's happened to me like 2 times...I drove like 2 hours each time....on top of that sometime they have old pictures too...


I'm sorry you had to go through that Moni. You wouldn't believe the stories I hear about people's experiences buying their Chi's. And of course you know how sensitive the size issue can be for some, so you don't always get the real picture until you experience all of it.


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## rcj1095

Yep, nothing will surprise me regarding size. Chloe's parents were small. And so were grandparents on both sides. At 12 weeks she weighed 1.3 oz. If the charts are correct (which they often aren't, as we know) Chloe would chart at 3 lbs. full grown, especially with her background. Now, she's already 2.7 and just over five months so the odd's of her charting correctly are not good. Lily and MoJie are both smaller boned also. Lily would chart at four pounds with the charts and her background, so we'll see. You really have to give it to a year if not a year and a half to tell, don't you think??? I can't wait to see where they end up at!!! Oh, if only Bam could have been healthy like her brother Teresa. Why oh why??? I miss her every day of my life... Lily is so much like her though that I think God or something put her in my life. She walks, barks, sleeps, and acts just like my angel Bam. I feel lucky to have Bam's spirit inside of her. My guess for MoJie is 4 lbs. topping out. Just guessing. I'm guessing Chloe at no more than 4 and Lily at about 4 also. NOTHING will surprise me or change how much I love them though. Did you guess yours at being a bit bigger or did you kinda know where they would end up???

If Chloe makes it to 4 lbs. she will be the biggest pup in like three or four generations of her family. Wouldn't that be something???


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## TLI

[


rcj1095 said:


> Yep, nothing will surprise me regarding size. Chloe's parents were small. And so were grandparents on both sides. At 12 weeks she weighed 1.3 oz. If the charts are correct (which they often aren't, as we know) Chloe would chart at 3 lbs. full grown, especially with her background. Now, she's already 2.7 and just over five months so the odd's of her charting correctly are not good. Lily and MoJie are both smaller boned also. Lily would chart at four pounds with the charts and her background, so we'll see. You really have to give it to a year if not a year and a half to tell, don't you think??? I can't wait to see where they end up at!!! Oh, if only Bam could have been healthy like her brother Teresa. Why oh why??? I miss her every day of my life... Lily is so much like her though that I think God or something put her in my life. She walks, barks, sleeps, and acts just like my angel Bam. I feel lucky to have Bam's spirit inside of her. My guess for MoJie is 4 lbs. topping out. Just guessing. I'm guessing Chloe at no more than 4 and Lily at about 4 also. NOTHING will surprise me or change how much I love them though. Did you guess yours at being a bit bigger or did you kinda know where they would end up???


Yeah, you really have to wait until about a year old. Of course you can get some idea at a younger age. With Chloe already being close to 3 lbs., I'm still gonna guess close to 5 lbs. mature. Lily may very well mature out at close to 4 lbs. I was telling Moni I see Mojie at no more than 5, probably around 4/4.5. So I think it's safe to say that Lily will be very close.

I'm so sorry about your little Bam, Robin. I know you will always miss her. I'm very happy that you found your little Lily and that she reminds you so much of your Bam. I know that comforts your heart. I asked myself for so long after losing Chase, why? I don't have the answers, but I do know that they will be waiting for us and that we'll be with them again someday. (((((Hugs)))))

I thought Lexie would be about 3.5/4 lbs. full grown until she reached about 6 months of age. Then I knew she probably wasn't going to reach quite that. Chance's little butt only weighed 8 oz. at 8 weeks, so he wasn't even on the charts, but I guessed his mature size at about 4 lbs. as well. He is 3.5 now, so I came real close. I was right on target with Gia and had more knowledge about the whole size thing then. She was older, so it was easier, even though again they can surprise you. They say Jade will be lucky to make it to 2 lbs., right now I agree. I will be able to tell better once she's about 6 months old. As fast as time flies, that won't be long. :lol:


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## rcj1095

Once they hit 6 months, where does it go from there? Bam never gained from 5 months on but she was sick. I know they all grow differently but how do gauge at 6 months? Still learning you know...:coolwink:

Doesn't your breeder friend double the 14/16 week weight and come out close usually???


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## TLI

rcj1095 said:


> Once they hit 6 months, where does it go from there? Bam never gained from 5 months on but she was sick. I know they all grow differently but how do gauge at 6 months? Still learning you know...:coolwink:
> 
> Doesn't your breeder friend double the 14/16 week weight and come out close usually???


If they are already at about 3 lbs. or more at 6 months you can add 1 lb. to their 6 month old weight and that will get you very close. Or, you can double the 12 week old weight, and add 1 lb. So if they are 1 lb. at 12 weeks, they would be 3 lbs. mature. That will vary though with the size of the Chi. A smaller Chi will not gain a full 1 lb. after 6 months usually. 8 ounces is usually more fair to say after 6 months for the smaller ones. 

With Bam being sick that is what kept her weight from increasing as she aged. I have never heard of a Chi topping out at 6 months old. They are normally not at their adult weight until they reach 18 months old. Of course after 1 year you aren't going to see much change usually.

6 months old is a good gauging guide because their growth plates close much sooner than a larger breed. Their growth plates close at about 7/9 months old. So their frame is basically set at that age, you'll just get some extra ounces from filling out from there. In other words their height and length will only change minimally after 6/7 months old.


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## rcj1095

Got it. Okay, Chloe was 1.2 at 12 weeks so doubling it and adding a pound would put us at 3-1/2 tops. At 16 weeks she was 1 lb. 11 oz. will would put her around four so where are you coming up with 5??? Cuz she's stockier? I know I'm driving you crazy now but I'm just so curious how these things work?


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## TLI

rcj1095 said:


> Got it. Okay, Chloe was 1.2 at 12 weeks so doubling it and adding a pound would put us at 3-1/2 tops. At 16 weeks she was 1 lb. 11 oz. will would put her around four so where are you coming up with 5??? Cuz she's stockier? I know I'm driving you crazy now but I'm just so curious how these things work?


You aren't driving me crazy. I don't mind trying to help. Yes, because of Chloe's build, I can see her at 4.5/5 lbs. And of course that's just a guess. She may be one of those that just appear larger than her weight.


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## avbjessup

I'm gonna jump in here... Not about your babies Robin, cuz I'm new to the whole thing and wondering about Lily's grown up size too. I swear I can sit here and see her grow before my eyes!

Regarding breeding 2.5 dogs... even if a breeder actually did that, there is no guarantee that they would produce small pups. I doubt most lay people know anything about genetics, let alone know a lot about genetics. I'm guessing good breeders who've been in the business for a long time know these things, but your basic byb probably has minimal knowledge. There just is no guarantee on size and anyone who would believe someone's "guarantee" is a sucker! People look at pics of a couple of weeks old pups and say, "wow, that is tiny" - Duh! I find most people do underestimate the weight/size of their toy dogs. I have a friend who has a small Yorkie. I took Lily over to her office right after I got her and she said, "Oh, Izzy is only a couple of ounces larger than Lily!". When she brought Izzy over a few days later, Izzy was huge compared to Lily (like Lexie next to Jade ). Kim said, "wow, I guess I didn't realize how big Izzy had gotten!" And Izzy was small - she was about 2.5lbs at the time, Lily was only 1.5. You all are right - it's the law of supply and demand. As long as there are folks willing to pay big bucks for super itty-bitty dogs there will be a supply...or at least the attempt to supply.


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## rcj1095

TLI said:


> You aren't driving me crazy. I don't mind trying to help. Yes, because of Chloe's build, I can see her at 4.5/5 lbs. And of course that's just a guess. She may be one of those that just appear larger than her weight.


Yep, that's exactly what I thought. She's got a much sturdier build (like her Daddy). I feel pretty comfortable with the guessing thing but you really have to know your lines. I'm built much more like my real Dad (I've been told) and my sisters are much more like my Mom. Well, we'll certainly see what happens. Keep ya posted to my darlin's weight!!! You do the same. Thanks hon.


avbjessup said:


> I'm gonna jump in here... Not about your babies Robin, cuz I'm new to the whole thing and wondering about Lily's grown up size too. I swear I can sit here and see her grow before my eyes!
> 
> Regarding breeding 2.5 dogs... even if a breeder actually did that, there is no guarantee that they would produce small pups. I doubt most lay people know anything about genetics, let alone know a lot about genetics. I'm guessing good breeders who've been in the business for a long time know these things, but your basic byb probably has minimal knowledge. There just is no guarantee on size and anyone who would believe someone's "guarantee" is a sucker! People look at pics of a couple of weeks old pups and say, "wow, that is tiny" - Duh! I find most people do underestimate the weight/size of their toy dogs. I have a friend who has a small Yorkie. I took Lily over to her office right after I got her and she said, "Oh, Izzy is only a couple of ounces larger than Lily!". When she brought Izzy over a few days later, Izzy was huge compared to Lily (like Lexie next to Jade ). Kim said, "wow, I guess I didn't realize how big Izzy had gotten!" And Izzy was small - she was about 2.5lbs at the time, Lily was only 1.5. You all are right - it's the law of supply and demand. As long as there are folks willing to pay big bucks for super itty-bitty dogs there will be a supply...or at least the attempt to supply.


Absolutely girl. You can get a decent idea about Lily with Teresa's plan. That's what my breeder does as a general rule. She knows her lines, backgrounds, etc. so she gets pretty close to guessing. Again, look at Bam and her brother though. Totally unpredictable. I have a friend who is 4'11" and weighs 100 lbs. soaking wet. Her hub is small too and their kids were between 8 and 9 pounds and have basically outgrown them both. Wild, isn't it??? Genetics are interesting and I love this topic, it fascinates me. I can't wait to see where all our babies end up at!!!


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## voodewlady

The puppy's parents I am getting are small. The dam is only 3.11 lbs and the sire is 2.8 lbs.


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## LDMomma

TLI said:


> I agree. Why be misleading about their size? Do they think people are blind and crazy?


Because people don't realize exactly how small a 2 pound dog is. For example, I saw a lady at Wal-Mart that had just gotten a Chi. She said the Chi was 10 months old and 2.7 pounds but her 2-3 pound Chi was every bit as "big" as my 5 pound Daisy. She's in for a surprise at the vet's office.

I also got Daisy without doing any research. My sister has her litter mate. My Daisy's weight ranges between 4.8 and 5 pounds. Her brother's ranges between 9.5 and 10.5. I would say Mom and Dad were 8 and 7 pounds, respectively.

The woman we got Daisy from was probably a backyard breeder. She planned to keep Daisy to breed her later. I got Daisy bc I refused to take any other pup but my Daisy.


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## hazeyj

Wow Ive never seen so many replies to a thread.......

I wonder what the real size of the mum and dad are?


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## Rosiesmum

One thing to keep in mind re size is that for many people the sire is an unknown quantity and they never get to see him...so basically a breeder can tell you what they like!

Sometimes you can view them, but not always!

x


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## TLI

avbjessup said:


> I'm gonna jump in here... Not about your babies Robin, cuz I'm new to the whole thing and wondering about Lily's grown up size too. I swear I can sit here and see her grow before my eyes!
> 
> Regarding breeding 2.5 dogs... even if a breeder actually did that, there is no guarantee that they would produce small pups. I doubt most lay people know anything about genetics, let alone know a lot about genetics. I'm guessing good breeders who've been in the business for a long time know these things, but your basic byb probably has minimal knowledge. There just is no guarantee on size and anyone who would believe someone's "guarantee" is a sucker! People look at pics of a couple of weeks old pups and say, "wow, that is tiny" - Duh! I find most people do underestimate the weight/size of their toy dogs. I have a friend who has a small Yorkie. I took Lily over to her office right after I got her and she said, "Oh, Izzy is only a couple of ounces larger than Lily!". When she brought Izzy over a few days later, Izzy was huge compared to Lily (like Lexie next to Jade ). Kim said, "wow, I guess I didn't realize how big Izzy had gotten!" And Izzy was small - she was about 2.5lbs at the time, Lily was only 1.5. You all are right - it's the law of supply and demand. As long as there are folks willing to pay big bucks for super itty-bitty dogs there will be a supply...or at least the attempt to supply.


It's funny how fast they grow, isn't it Ann. Sometime it's easier to see their growth when you compare pictures. Like starting from when they are younger to current. 

And I agree with everything you said regarding size, genetics, etc.. 



rcj1095 said:


> Yep, that's exactly what I thought. She's got a much sturdier build (like her Daddy). I feel pretty comfortable with the guessing thing but you really have to know your lines. I'm built much more like my real Dad (I've been told) and my sisters are much more like my Mom. Well, we'll certainly see what happens. Keep ya posted to my darlin's weight!!! You do the same. Thanks hon.


I'm sure with your breeder being as knowledgeable as she is on the breed that her guess for Chloe's size will give you a good estimate.  Normally the stocky ones carry some extra weight vs. the smaller boned. Like Chance is the same height and length as Lexie, but he weighs more because his build is different. Chloe is a beautiful Chi, and will be a stunner at any weight. 



LDMomma said:


> Because people don't realize exactly how small a 2 pound dog is. For example, I saw a lady at Wal-Mart that had just gotten a Chi. She said the Chi was 10 months old and 2.7 pounds but her 2-3 pound Chi was every bit as "big" as my 5 pound Daisy. She's in for a surprise at the vet's office.
> 
> I also got Daisy without doing any research. My sister has her litter mate. My Daisy's weight ranges between 4.8 and 5 pounds. Her brother's ranges between 9.5 and 10.5. I would say Mom and Dad were 8 and 7 pounds, respectively.
> 
> The woman we got Daisy from was probably a backyard breeder. She planned to keep Daisy to breed her later. I got Daisy bc I refused to take any other pup but my Daisy.


Yes this is very true. Many just "estimate" weight. But that can be very deceiving. I had a lady tell me she had an 8 ounce pup that turned out to be close to 2 lbs. She was very reluctant when I asked her to put him on the scale for me. :lol: All of this is really only relevant if you have a definite size in mind. And for some of us it's just an interesting topic. How genetics and all of that play into the whole thing is quite amazing when you start researching it. So many will buy a tiny pup, or a runt and are surprised when they end up over 6 lbs. as an adult. Or vice/versa, their largest of the litter ends up barely 3 lbs.



hazeyj said:


> Wow Ive never seen so many replies to a thread.......
> 
> I wonder what the real size of the mum and dad are?


There is no way of knowing really. Most ethical breeders only breed females over 4 lbs., and prefer 5 lbs. The smaller females have to much trouble, and normally only deliver 1 or 2 pups. The Vet fees for a c-section and complications is very expensive. Also, most ethical breeders never breed a female again that has any pregnancy or birthing trouble. They have them spayed and either keep them as pets, or sell them to a pet home.



Rosiesmum said:


> One thing to keep in mind re size is that for many people the sire is an unknown quantity and they never get to see him...so basically a breeder can tell you what they like!
> 
> Sometimes you can view them, but not always!
> 
> x


That's interesting. I know many breeders here have their bitches and studs on site. But unless you are buying local and can see them in person, they can send you any photo and claim that it's the sire of the litter. There is a lot of scams out there. You just have to be very careful when choosing a breeder. 

I also wanted to mention that you won't find but a handful that will "guarantee" adult size, because they know they can't.


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## Brodysmom

This size thing goes the opposite way too. We have a maine **** cat and he is supposed to be LARGE. Well large is relative. Many people expect the Maine **** boys to be 20 pounds or more and that's what they want. Well, it's just like breeding Chi's. You are going to get some that are 17 pounds, some 20, and the occasional 25 pounder. Of course everyone sees the 25 pounder and says "that's what I want!" (Just like our Chi's and the tinies.)

We bought Triskit from a breeder who wouldn't guarantee size on any of her cats. She said she has seen some of the smallest in the litter turn out to be the biggest and vice versa. Well, she thought Triskit would be 'average'. Not super big, but certainly a standard size. His mom is 16 pounds, his dad is 22 pounds. We took him to the vet yesterday for his rabies shot and he weighed 17.5 pounds. A perfectly respectable weight for a 3 year old Maine **** boy. But NOT the huge 25 pounder that everyone hopes they get. 

Brodysmom


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