# is it really better to ship?



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

found fab puppy, i want to drive him back. drive is 11 hrs. his breeder thinks its better to ship him...which is really better for the dog? he is 7 months, very beautiful, but above all lovable which is why i need to know bc i want the best for him...

This question is directed more towards breeders ( the good ones).


----------



## catalat (Apr 21, 2008)

I would probably drive out personally. I don't know how the whole putting dogs on airplane things work, but I wouldn't trust someone else loading/unloading my puppy onto an airplane. 

Don't they go in the part of the plane where the luggage goes? If so I think that would be more frightening/traumatic for the pup, plus who knows how safe it is down there.

Like I said I am not very sure about the whole shipping thing... but whatever you decide I hope you pup makes it to your arms safe and sound


----------



## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

If it were me then I would fly to get him and have him as a carry on with you flying back or drive to get him;-)

I know that tons of people ship and the pups do fine, my fear is always where someone in the cargo areas would be mean to the puppy, tease or give them food or something that could hurt them:-( I have heard of these things in the past.


----------



## *Tricia* (Dec 1, 2007)

I'm not a breeder, but if you have a choice, I think it only makes sense to drive and get the dog rather than have him shipped. I'm really surprised that a breeder would rather ship a dog than personally hand it over to the new owner. I'm sure some breeders can chime in here and maybe explain why they would ever prefer shipping a dog if they don't absolutely have to.


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

she doesnt want me to drive him back... i know hes my dog and i can do what i want ( i paid for him, after all) but im not trying to get in a fight with his breeder on the boys very first day home


----------



## Chico's Mum (Sep 9, 2008)

Than dont tell her say ok. 

As for me I wouldn't chip him for the reasons that was said. 

Dogs can get adapted fast. And with you in the car with him he will bond with you. 

With chico he is used to the car now and with me on the plane. And his still a pup. There is no harm what's so ever if he traveled with you just stop from time to time and let him do his business or use a newspaper if you felt he need to go. It will be fine I'm sure.  In any case he will be sleeping most of the time.


----------



## Maleighchi (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm not a breeder, and don't ever plan on being one, but to me, this sounds fishy. I can't imagine a GOOD breeder would prefer you shipping the puppy verses you coming to pick him up.


----------



## Chico's Mum (Sep 9, 2008)

Hmm go to her. See the breeders house. Maybe she doesn't want you too. Thats why she wants to chip your pup. 

But it does sound wearied.


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

deleted--

before this gets out of hand...please no accusations of her being byb b/c theres no way id believe it. she is a wonderful person, so please lecture those on here who really are the BYBs...im just trying to find out if theres a reason why shed rather ship than have me pick him up...im sure theres a legit reason. im really looking for the facts not advice so if you dont know the answer, that is cool...just no speculations. i mean, you can if you want but youre just wasting your time bc im just going to do whatever it takes to get the dog...bc im not looking for guidance, im looking for enlightenment and to better understand why someone would think its better to ship than to drive a dog ( even if the drive is pretty long)


----------



## Maleighchi (Jan 6, 2008)

I'd suggest you tell her that you'd feel more comfortable coming to pick him up and leave it at that.


----------



## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

Yoshismom said:


> If it were me then I would fly to get him and have him as a carry on with you flying back or drive to get him;-)
> 
> I know that tons of people ship and the pups do fine, my fear is always where someone in the cargo areas would be mean to the puppy, tease or give them food or something that could hurt them:-( I have heard of these things in the past.


I agree, that's what I would do as well ^_^

I would much rather drive than have him shipped though, flying is an extremely stressful thing. The sensation of pressure drops and rises is confusing to an animal, and can really upset them. This stress could potentially lower his immune system. Some handle it very well, but generally it is not pleasant for animals to fly. Driving can cause motion sickness, which is also unpleasant, and a long car ride can also be stressful. Still, most animals will travel well in the car, even with motion sickness, they will enjoy the feeling of driving.


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

ill def bring up that option with her ( picking him up then flying him with me)...but im still curious as to what the benefits of shipping him for an hr or so is over driving with him for 11hrs. so if you know the answer, please tell me


----------



## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

^ also thought I'd add most animals have to be given a mild form of a sedative to fly, in order to reduce some of the stress.


----------



## Chico's Mum (Sep 9, 2008)

chibellaxo said:


> deleted--
> 
> before this gets out of hand...please no accusations of her being byb b/c theres no way id believe it. she is a wonderful person, so please lecture those on here who really are the BYBs...im just trying to find out if theres a reason why shed rather ship than have me pick him up...im sure theres a legit reason. im really looking for the facts not advice so if you dont know the answer, that is cool...just no speculations. i mean, you can if you want but youre just wasting your time bc im just going to do whatever it takes to get the dog...bc im not looking for guidance, im looking for enlightenment and to better understand why someone would think its better to ship than to drive a dog ( even if the drive is pretty long)


I'm sorry your upset I was just trying to help.  

I found a link about flaying VS driving this might be your breeder's reasons too.

Anyway here



> FLight the dog, less stressful than driving a hiper dog. I have flown many small puppies all over the states with huge success using U.s. Air and Delt, Amercian. I prefer U.S. Air.
> The horrow stores are long gone, the airlines have very strict rules now. Do not drug the dog for it needs to see and hear all from one hundred per cent to be less fearful. The only thing is it noisey. But, healty little puppie smake it from Frankfurt, Germany and mine all over from Ca to Fl.
> She will take the flight better than u, but a crate large size at www.drsfostersmith.com, they are on sale, make sure its airline approved, practice putting her inside it before hand. Pet and hug her, give her a treat inside it.
> also place something of your in the crate for the flight, absorbant material, shredded paper or towel. She will be fine trust me.


http://en.allexperts.com/q/Travel-Pets-3101/Flying-Vs-Driving.htm


----------



## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

^ that's so interesting that's the exact opposite of what I've always read. It makes sense though. I hate flying though myself, so stressful lol.


----------



## *Tricia* (Dec 1, 2007)

That was an answer from a breeder of German Shepherds when a lady asked if she should fly the puppy WITH HER or send it in a car with her friends. I honestly cannot imagine any caring breeder thinking flying alone in the cargo area is better than travelling with it's owner, whether on a plane or in a car. At 7 months old, this pup is already very attached to its current family and is going to be scared to death if he's thrown on a plane by himself. I know you don't want advice, but I definitely say don't do it. And if the breeder refuses to let you pick him up, run as fast as you can. You've been dealing with all these different breeders for so long searching for your puppy and encountered so many things that made you suspicious about all of them, so I don't know why you're going to allow this woman (who you've never even been to her house) to tell you what to do. Would you let her tell you that you can't take your puppy on vacation with you because it's a long car ride? I'm not trying to be mean or rude or anything, I just hope you think about this


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Chico's Mum said:


> I'm sorry your upset I was just trying to help.
> 
> I found a link about flaying VS driving this might be your breeder's reasons too.
> 
> ...


nah, im not upset. i just didnt want everyone to lose focus on the real issue (which is to help me find an answer to my question not to judge the breeder). thanks for the link


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

hollysmommy said:


> That was an answer from a breeder of German Shepherds when a lady asked if she should fly the puppy WITH HER or send it in a car with her friends. I honestly cannot imagine any caring breeder thinking flying alone in the cargo area is better than travelling with it's owner, whether on a plane or in a car. At 7 months old, this pup is already very attached to its current family and is going to be scared to death if he's thrown on a plane by himself. I know you don't want advice, but I definitely say don't do it. And if the breeder refuses to let you pick him up, run as fast as you can. You've been dealing with all these different breeders for so long searching for your puppy and encountered so many things that made you suspicious about all of them, so I don't know why you're going to allow this woman (who you've never even been to her house) to tell you what to do. Would you let her tell you that you can't take your puppy on vacation with you because it's a long car ride? I'm not trying to be mean or rude or anything, I just hope you think about this


no, i dont think your rude. and you made good point, "Would you let her tell you that you can't take your puppy on vacation with you because it's a long car ride?" But you guys just dont really understand, if i dont get a dog everyone is going to think that im not serious about finding one. so, no matter what happens, this dog HAS to become mine. Besides, im already very attached to the dog...i feel if i get a diff dog, ill spend the rest of that dog's life wondering what couldve been with this one...*And its not that i dont appreciate your guys' advise ( bc i realize you all do mean well) its just that I know theres nothing more frustrating than taking the time and energy to give advice to someone who wont take it, anyway. So, I decided to be up front from the start....*

ok, thanks everyone for your time! i wanted to understand bc i figured there was a logical explanation for the breeder's logic but i also realize that sometimes, some things just dont have logical explanations.


----------



## Tora-Oni (Sep 13, 2008)

chibellaxo said:


> ill def bring up that option with her ( picking him up then flying him with me)...but im still curious as to what the benefits of shipping him for an hr or so is over driving with him for 11hrs. so if you know the answer, please tell me


That is what my advice would have been too. See if you can make a compramise, I think it maybe the fact they feel the dog is going to do this probably sometime in its life again? I don't really know for sure, I think it may have to be the time, I mean I'd say 5 hr drive not so bad but 11 hrs does seem rather lengthy, even though thats probably not a problem. I'm thinking it has to do with how active they are at that age and a long drive when a puppy isn't use to driving that long may be unpleasant, and maybe she doesn't want to take the chance of something happening? I don't know for sure it sounds unusual to me but I think If you can get her to agree to the flying with him option. I mean to me it may be her personal preferences and maybe she feels this is best for her baby, after all she was with him for the first seven months and you tell us she is a spectacular breeder so I think it maybe in her opinion less tramitizing to have a short trip than a long trip at that age? I honestly can't really see any strong idea why not but thats her decision. I don't trust shipping completely and I would rather pick up if I could but I wouldn't rule out shipping if I felt it be easier for the puppy.


----------



## catalat (Apr 21, 2008)

I like the idea of flying but having the pup fly by your side..Maybe your breeder likes the idea of shipping because its quicker in general.


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Tora-Oni said:


> That is what my advice would have been too. See if you can make a compramise, I think it maybe the fact they feel the dog is going to do this probably sometime in its life again? I don't really know for sure, I think it may have to be the time, I mean I'd say 5 hr drive not so bad but 11 hrs does seem rather lengthy, even though thats probably not a problem. I'm thinking it has to do with how active they are at that age and a long drive when a puppy isn't use to driving that long may be unpleasant, and maybe she doesn't want to take the chance of something happening? I don't know for sure it sounds unusual to me but I think If you can get her to agree to the flying with him option. I mean to me it may be her personal preferences and maybe she feels this is best for her baby, after all she was with him for the first seven months and you tell us she is a spectacular breeder so I think it maybe in her opinion less tramitizing to have a short trip than a long trip at that age? I honestly can't really see any strong idea why not but thats her decision. I don't trust shipping completely and I would rather pick up if I could but I wouldn't rule out shipping if I felt it be easier for the puppy.


i never thought of that...and your pts are def valid. in fact, i think you might be absolutely right. she shows a lot and takes him along, so he's supposedly very used to being packed up. i think she does feel this way would be easier for him. im only so worried bc my supervisor told me story about his sister paying for a puppy to be shipped from a breeder-- the dog ended up dying


----------



## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

I really can't imagine a breeder suggesting you not come pick up your dog. That bothers me. I hope you can persuade her to allow you to come pick him up.

Breeders who ship really bother me - as unless you meet the person getting your dog you haven't done due diligence in placing the puppy. Shipping is easy and to me - it is the lazy way out. If someone really wants one of your dogs (regardless of where they live) they will come to you. 

We have a woman coming from Ireland this fall to meet us and the pack and she will fly back to pick up her puppies (provided the first visit goes well) as soon as we have a litter of with at least two females (she wants to get siblings) BUT we will have the girls here until they are spayed/fully vaccinated and then they will be able to fly home with their new Mom and Dad (Dad will be coming on the pick up so that they can go in the cabin not in cargo). 

Shipping is safe however you driving your dog home will be safer. You can monitor his needs, be there throughout the drive and make stops when necessary (even an overnight one if you wanted to break it up for you both).

Also, as a prospective puppy owner (if I were in your shoes), I would want to see where my puppy came from first hand and visit with the breeder and your puppy's pack. The breeder wanting you to not drive to pick up your puppy would be a red flag for me, personally. 

We don't ship our puppies (even though we are asked to frequently) and this is why:

_We require all prospective puppy owners to come here to meet us in person, see our pack and interact with the dogs

We do home visits with all prospective puppy owners to see the living conditions our puppy will be brought up in

Shipping is for the most part safe but dogs have been lost, gotten loose, too cold, too hot, had an issue mid-flight but no one there to help (think hypoglycemia) etc - there are risks to shipping and even though minimal - we consider them too high for one of our puppies. 

With shipping - you don't know who REALLY is picking up your puppy on the other end, e-mails/phone calls are great but unless you meet someone face to face it is hard to judge their sincerity as body language is the most telling communication tool - thus shipping is a risk we will never take.

Dogs are pack animals and require companionship - it is better for them to have a longer travel time with a companion than it is for them to be alone in the cargo area of a plane._

What I would suggest you say to the breeder is this, "I really would prefer to pick up my puppy as I feel the trip home would be a bonding experience for us and I would be there to monitor him throughout the trip versus him being in the crate in the plane. I also would like to take the opportunity to meet you and your other dogs as it is important to me. I hope that you will respect my wishes as I do not want my little guy shipped."


----------



## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

^ I agree.



chibellaxo said:


> But you guys just dont really understand, if i dont get a dog everyone is going to think that im not serious about finding one. so, no matter what happens, this dog HAS to become mine


Maybe this isn't the best reason to be in a hurry to purchase him. Her insistance on him flying would cause concern for me. What everyon thinks of you shouldn't effect your decision.


----------



## Kioana (Mar 1, 2005)

Jasper & Justice was shipped to me , they did fine


----------



## Tora-Oni (Sep 13, 2008)

chibellaxo said:


> i never thought of that...and your pts are def valid. in fact, i think you might be absolutely right. she shows a lot and takes him along, so he's supposedly very used to being packed up. i think she does feel this way would be easier for him. im only so worried bc my supervisor told me story about his sister paying for a puppy to be shipped from a breeder-- the dog ended up dying


I only think that happens if your not prepared enough, I'm sure your breeder will have a blanket and some newspaper/wee wee pad to absorb the accidents, b/c alot of times little puppies will suffer from the cold and if your not prepared. I believe your breeder would not do that to her babies, if you like to ask and insure that just to give you a piece of mind go ask.


----------



## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

Honestly chibellaxo this thread really concerns me. It is filled with red flags and I hope that you make the right decision.

I understand you don't want us to comment on the breeder but as many people have pointed out this breeder's behavior is NOT normal for a reputable breeder. You probably don't want to hear that - you are trying to work this out but honestly - there is a huge red flag waving in front of you and you are choosing to ignore it.

There are many people out there in the world that seem nice, caring and project a wonderful image when talking through the internet or on the phone - however BODY language makes us 55% of our communication skills and what you don't see could be very telling. 

Have you been to the breeder's home to visit with this puppy before? Have you met this breeder in person or are you simply going on e-mails and phone calls?

You need to understand we are trying to help you avoid a bad situation.



chibellaxo said:


> But you guys just dont really understand, if i dont get a dog everyone is going to think that im not serious about finding one. so, no matter what happens, this dog HAS to become mine.


Don't get a dog because you are worried about people thinking you are serious. I know for myself, personally, I would rather you take 5 years to find the right dog versus rushing into a situation like this.

If this breeder is being argumentative with you about shipping - there is a reason for it and I am sorry but it should be a huge warning sign for you.

The breeder shouldn't not argue or refuse to sell you the dog because you don't want it shipped. Think about it - that is insane!! 

If the breeder insists that the dog be shipped or mentions that they will refuse to sell you the dog because they don't want you to pick it up - I would RUN and RUN as fast as I could because there is a reason the breeder doesn't want you there and if you give into this bully breeder - you could be making a huge mistake.

This is NOT normal breeder behavior and you do not have to accept it. A reputable, responsible breeder would be more than happy to respect your wishes to pick up your puppy. 

These are the things you have said about this breeder:

"i want to drive him back. drive is 11 hrs. his breeder thinks its better to ship him"

"she doesnt want me to drive him back... i know hes my dog and i can do what i want ( i paid for him, after all) but im not trying to get in a fight with his breeder"

These are not positive statements.

*If this breeder shows all the time as mentioned above and the puppy is used to "being packed up" - then why is it unacceptable for you to drive him home? Breeders (usually) don't fly to shows - they DRIVE - sometimes LONGER than 11 hours to get to ONE show ..... something is wrong with this breeder/situation and it needs to be looked into.*

Driving with a dog is not unsafe. We have driven 30 hours STRAIGHT (no over night stops) with dogs AND cats in the car. It is about how you manage it.

11 hours is not a long drive and if you were that concerned about the length of the drive - stop overnight at a hotel after driving 5-6 hours and then have fun with your puppy in the hotel room! This is something even your breeder COULD have suggested.

There are ways to make a car ride enjoyable for all. Driving is by far the best solution especially for the puppy. 

PROS of driving puppy home:
Meeting breeder and puppy's family
Having a bonding experience through talking to puppy, petting puppy, potty breaks ...
Puppy has companionship for entire trip
Puppy can be monitored for temperature, hypoglycemia, bathroom needs, comfort etc
Puppy can have music to calm him or fresh air from the window
Excellent socialization experience for puppy
You will have lifelong memories of your adventure

CONS of driving puppy home:
Meeting breeder and puppy's family (might not be what you expected)
Length of trip - could be boring
Cost of gas

PROS of flying puppy home:
Short trip for puppy

CONS of flying puppy home:
Giving into the bossy, bully breeder
NOT meeting the breeder and puppy's family as per breeder's demand
NO companionship for puppy throughout the trip
NO ONE monitoring the puppy throughout the ENTIRE trip
NO bonding experience for you or puppy - you will be a stranger picking the puppy up
NO fresh air for the puppy or soothing music just noise, possibly other dogs/cats or engine sounds etc
NO control over who sees, touches or pokes at puppy's crate (think airport workers while puppy is being transported from plane to hanger etc)
NO control over the care puppy receives (careful handling of crate etc)


----------



## Tora-Oni (Sep 13, 2008)

Though Personally I still agree with OrchardLane On meeting the breeder and seeing them, if the breeder agrees to have you guys fly together that would ideal. If this is the only problem you have with the breeder so far, and I know your particular and picky and it looks like you found "the one" and I know sometimes you feel this connection but I feel better if I could see the housing condition of the dogs before I agree to shipping. Well I hope however it works out that everything is okay in the end.


----------



## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

Tora-Oni said:


> if the breeder agrees to have you guys fly together that would ideal.


I agree if the breeder will only compromise to this solution - then take it BUT you must visit the property FIRST, meet the breeder AND the other dogs on site as a condition of this compromise. You have a right as a prospective puppy owner to this and no reputable breeder would refuse that request.

A breeder should not try to force you into shipping a dog when you have expressed interest in picking it up NOR should they insist on meeting you somewhere or delivering the dog to you. Those are all warning signs clearly showing avoidance for you coming to their location. 

Many people have gotten fooled by "great breeders" who sounded nice, had the right answers etc. The key is to remember that people can be whatever they want to be when they are trying to sell you something - it is sad but it is how the world is now.


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

i talked to the breeder today. she isnt a byb or a miller she is a sweet woman who just genuinely wanted to help. she knew in order to pick up the boy, my bf and i would have to take a day off from work. i want him by a certain date and unfortunately, the closest weekend to that date, my bf has to work. so, she figured since the dog is practically an adult, anyway, and used to traveling that he would be fine.


----------



## Adriana (Dec 11, 2005)

Have he been on a plane before? If so, then he have allready experienced some of it before. I know I have concerns about sending my dogs on a plane alone, most of all because they have to be delivered hours ahead of the flight, and I don't really trust how they are being taken care of while waiting for being placed on the plane.. I have allways had my dogs in cabin when flying with them. 
Your pup is 11 months now like u said, so if he is mentally strong, a flight should go ok.. There will allways be divided opinions about everything, but if YOU don't feel sure about this, you should figure something out with the breeder, that you feel comfortable with  Anyway, good luck with your new dog


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

he is 7 months old and i think he will be fine. his breeder is a fine woman who seems to know what she is doing. thanks for the well wishes.


----------



## Adriana (Dec 11, 2005)

Ah.. 7 months.. hehe.. was reading all the posts on this thread and must have remembered wrong when I replied  Have you posted any pictures of him yet? If not, I hope you will when he arrives


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Adriana said:


> Ah.. 7 months.. hehe.. was reading all the posts on this thread and must have remembered wrong when I replied  Have you posted any pictures of him yet? If not, I hope you will when he arrives


his baby picture is up. hes a beautiful dog and i know that i am very fortunate to have him. unless i become some big time show person, i doubt i will ever get a dog this nice ever again. so i am very protective of him. his breeder found a flight with a one hour layover stop...at first i balked but i talked to a continental rep and i was reassured that they closely monitor the animals and a vet is called asap should anything happen ( bc unless the dog was sedated prior, the airlines are responsible for whatever happens to him). my question: he wont be too cold during his layover, right? and have any of you had experience shipping a chi puppy with Continental Airlines ( specifically during the winter)??

EDIT: and no. just bc i dont see eye to eye with this breeder on _*everything *_doesnt mean its a "red flag." i dont see eye to eye with MANY people on everything, including a lot of you but it doesnt mean you all are bad people...i just treat my dogs differently than most people would treat theirs'.


----------



## CHI'S AND ME (May 7, 2006)

I have had 3 puppies shipped to me, one arrived ok. The second was rolled ,thats right rolled down the luggage ramp kennel and all and was cought just before he hit the ground, the arses out there flipped his kennel upright and laughed, they thought it was funny. They set his at the top of the ramp again and let him ride down. Oh yes I was mad everyone in the airport heard me. The third guy arrived with no papers, food, vet records on the kennel, the breeder had put the airport name on the kennel above the little door. That is it only reason he made it to us. A passenger came up to us, she said they were looking for the owner, she recognised the pup and knew he was a boy. She looked at him and said I thought you looked familier little fella. When and how she saw him we dont know. I will never fly a puppy again. Our last little guy we drove 19.5 hours oneway to get him, and he did better than the others.


----------



## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

^ that's exactly why I would rather drive than fly a puppy.


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

CHI'S AND ME said:


> I have had 3 puppies shipped to me, one arrived ok. The second was rolled ,thats right rolled down the luggage ramp kennel and all and was cought just before he hit the ground, the arses out there flipped his kennel upright and laughed, they thought it was funny. They set his at the top of the ramp again and let him ride down. Oh yes I was mad everyone in the airport heard me. The third guy arrived with no papers, food, vet records on the kennel, the breeder had put the airport name on the kennel above the little door. That is it only reason he made it to us. A passenger came up to us, she said they were looking for the owner, she recognised the pup and knew he was a boy. She looked at him and said I thought you looked familier little fella. When and how she saw him we dont know. I will never fly a puppy again. Our last little guy we drove 19.5 hours oneway to get him, and he did better than the others.


whats this with Continental Airlines??? I know Delta has been in the press for abusing their shipped animals but i have heard nothing but good things about Continental. I would like to hear specifically people's experience with Continental Airlines, so if you have any experience with them, please share


----------



## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

chibellaxo said:


> whats this with Continental Airlines??? I know Delta has been in the press for abusing their shipped animals but i have heard nothing but good things about Continental. I would like to hear specifically people's experience with Continental Airlines, so if you have any experience with them, please share


Lots of people assume that Continental is great because of the Petsafe program it has in place ..... a la “Pet-friendly” airlines such as Continental, Northwest, and KLM created cargo programmes designed to care for four-legged travellers.

Sometimes the best meaning programs don't work ....

I think that you will find this link useful:

http://www.helpinganimals.com/Travel_cargo.asp

Here is a little sample of what is in there - your Continental Airlines does not have the greatest track record ....

"The following is a list of the animal-related incidents that were reported for each airline between May 2005 and May 2006.

Alaska Airlines: 2 deaths, 3 injuries, 1 loss
American Airlines: 6 deaths
Comair: 1 injury
*Continental Airlines: 8 deaths, 8 injuries*
Delta: 2 deaths, 2 losses
Frontier: 1 injury
Hawaiian: 3 injuries
Horizon: 2 deaths, 1 injury
Midwest: 1 death
Northwest: 2 injuries, 2 losses
Pinnacle: 2 injuries
Shuttle America (United Express): 1 death
SkyWest: 1 death
United Airlines: 4 deaths
US Airways: 1 death, 1 injury, 1 loss

Total: 28 deaths, 22 injuries, 6 losses = 56 incidents 

* Continental Airlines accounted for more than one-quarter of the deaths (eight out of 24) and a little more than one-third of the injuries (eight out of 22).
* American Airlines had six deaths, the next-greatest number of deaths after Continental.
* About 70 percent of the incidents involved dogs, who are commonly forced to travel in cargo rather than in the cabin."

I am sorry but 28 deaths, 22 injuries and 6 LOSSES [in ONE year] is too big of a risk for any of my dogs and that is why we refuse to ship ours.

The same article above also states:

"What You Can Do

* *Do not fly with your animal companion—unless it is an emergency and there is absolutely no other alternative.*"

Here is another story about a dog that went missing on a 2008 Continental Airlines flight:

http://www.tripso.com/today/traveling-with-a-pet-do-your-doggone-homework/

This article is recent, and despite Continental's PetSafe program - this dog was lost. It is really eye opening at how a dog can go missing and no one has a clue what is going on about it. 

The article above even states:

"What can passengers do to protect the family pet?

*Well, the obvious answer would be to drive.* The air travel system is complicated. Cargo holds are dark. They are loud. They are subject to extreme temperatures, hot and cold. The animals are loaded and unloaded the same way as suitcases, and try as the airlines might, when it comes right down to it, the animals are cargo. Plain and simple. Then there’s the fact that the animals are handled by fallible human beings."

Also another enlightening article is one where the Animal Legal Denfense Fund warns pet owners to NOT transport their animals by air due to the high risk of injury, loss and death.

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/airplane.htm

"The Animal Legal Defense Fund (ALDF) has issued an emergency alert warning pet owners to avoid transporting their animals by air, particularly during the hot summer months. ALDF cited airlines continued disregard for the safety of the animals they carry as the reason for the warning.

"Despite hundreds of incidents in which animals have been lost, injured or killed while being transported by airplane, the airlines have shown little regard for the safety of the animals who are entrusted to them," said Valerie Stanley, ALDF senior staff attorney. "We feel compelled to let consumers know that they are risking their pets' lives when they transport them by air.""

Also in 2005 when the airlines were tracking pet related incidents - Continental Airline won the prestigious title of "#1 Pet Killing Airline" as in the first month - two pets died while in transit on their airline (a rat and a dog with a heart condition) but all animals traveling by air must receive a vet health certificate so the dog should have been ok.

You truly are taking a risk when you fly an animal. You would be better of driving your dog home. Especially since he is a 7 month old puppy that is used to "being packed up" and toted to shows. Driving is something that he is used to - so why would this be so bad??

Also you haven't mentioned arranging to meet the breeder in person at her facility prior to shipping. It is NEVER recommended to purchase a dog (let alone have one shipped) without viewing the living conditions/meeting the breeder and dog IN PERSON first. 

So I would hope for the sake of your dog that even if you choose to give in to the breeder and have him shipped you will at least view the premises, your dog and meet the breeder BEFORE you even think about having this dog shipped. 

It is a reasonable request and if the breeder truly is as reputable as you say - she would not refuse this. There is no excuse to refuse a home visit unless she has something to hide.


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

please let me make this clear: she never once told me that i couldnt come over. i know where she lives but i do not want to visit her home. i had planned to vist but after talking with her, seeing her dogs, reviewing her show history on independent sites ( Jack onoforio dog shows, infodog) and receiving her references (one being from a VERY distinguished breeder) i think a home visit is pointless-- i know im going to get the dog regardless. this is NOT about whether the breeder is sketchy or not. This is about me trying to learn about people's experience with shipping puppies via Continental Airlines. i hope its not too much to ask that we stick to the topic. she does not breed "designer" dogs, her puppies meet the akc standards ( at the least), i have called up her vet and they have provided glowing reports regarding the dog's temperament and health...nothing bad can be found on her. she really is as wonderful as her references say she is and as i believe her to be.


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

and should the unthinkable happen and years later i learn that i was sold a puppy that will require thousands of dollars in vet care, i would have no regrets bc i have the money to provide for all of this dog's needs. that was why i waited until i had a great job because i didnt want to get a dog unless i was certain that i could afford to take care of him, at his most unhealthiest moment.


----------



## Chico's Mum (Sep 9, 2008)

*chibellaxo* If you read *OrchardLane* post from the top you well see that she did answer your questions about *Continental Airlines* As you asked With links and stories about that airline yet you didn't comment on it. 

And as the topic of this thread you wanted info about Shipping a pet. Again we gave it to you too we just included our concern of your breeder. 

The only thing is we are concerned about your chihuahua and we triad to give you advice about your breeder. But you made it clear that you wont lesson too it and thats fine. 

It Just seems you already have your hurt set on shipping him so why still ask questions If you well ship him anyway. 

I don't mean to sound rude or mean but the day you hold him in your arms and connect with him you well know the reason we want you to take him with you or at least pick him up and flay home with on the plane with you. 

I never understood it tell I got chico. My brother and his wife have two dogs. And when the lady told me that she can ship him to Saudi. They were so pissed off. I didn't understand it I was thinking it was ok too. I mean this lady started crying when I left and seems to love him and take care of him And being she didn't mind the shipping why should I. Yes I saw him but I still didn't bond with him yet. I remember my brother telling me if there is no other chose but shipping him than he well get me another chihuahua back home. I refused because I wanted chico no matter what. 
But thankfully because the lady burly spoke English we got a translator who told us that she mint it is allowed to take him any country but UK. So I was relieved and so happy and lucky to because it was mint to be. and that what my brother and my sister in law keeps telling me too. If it is mint to be it's mint to be. 
But now when I think about it I can never ever thing of shipping him or even leaving him in the cargo while I was on the plane even. I don't know what I was thinking about and if I have done it I will never forgeve my self. 

If you don't want to talk about your breeder or read about what we want to say about it than ignore it. But read our post about Shipping Vs Driving you well see that we are on topic.


----------



## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

I would prefer to meet the breeder see her home and parents/mother of the chihuahua just in case.


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Chico's Mum said:


> *chibellaxo* If you read *OrchardLane* post from the top you well see that she did answer your questions about *Continental Airlines* As you asked With links and stories about that airline yet you didn't comment on it.


if you read my comments from top to bottom you would realize i never said she wasnt on topic. however, i do feel she is drifting from the main point...look, i'll be blunt. i dont care if you think the breeder is shady bc i didnt ask your advice on how to pick a breeder, i asked advice on shipping (specifically with continental). I dont want to hear horror stories about breeders, mills, ect..bc i do NOT care. i was trying to make that clear bc i dont want you to waste your time giving me advice about breeders when im not going to listen, anyways. if youre posting advicee for other users, then fine. but dont do it for me.i admit, i stopped reading what you have to say after the part i quoted bc you sound lecture-ish and i dont care enough about what you have to say to "listen" to you lecture. im going to be blunt bc i want to make sure we are on the same page. i would be ok with ppl expressing concern about my breeder if you would show the same concern when OTHER breeders on here post sketchy stuff, too...i can bring up examples but id rather not bc im sure by this point everyone should know who those people are. And you are right. i didnt comment on the links b/c I didnt realize i was expected to give a review of what i thought, after I read it. Yes, I know Orchard Lane prob means well here. And she sounds like a nice person but most of her threads are so anti show breeder, i get the impression that no matter what my breeder does, my breeder will always be "wrong" in her eyes, anyway. 

EDIT: if you want to say im "bitchy", "dumb," "an animal abuser," whatever im not going to argue bc i dont care ..i just want to know about people's experience w/ shipping a puppy through Continental Airlines. But i can see that is not going to happen, so im done with this thread. i will ship the dog unless i hear from someone who has personal experience with Continental abusing their pet.


----------



## Chico's Mum (Sep 9, 2008)

lol bitchy no but stubborn yes.  We are here to help you not make you upset hon. 

And your right others can learn from this. If you didn't go to this link that *Orchard Lane* posted above please read it it's about *Continental Airlines flight* Stories. 



> Here is another story about a dog that went missing on a 2008 Continental Airlines flight:
> http://www.tripso.com/today/travelin...gone-homework/
> 
> Also another enlightening article is one where the Animal Legal Denfense Fund warns pet owners to NOT transport their animals by air due to the high risk of injury, loss and death.
> https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/airplane.htm


What ever it is you decide please let us know when your boy is home.


----------



## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

chibellaxo said:


> if you read my comments from top to bottom you would realize i never said she wasnt on topic. however, i do feel she is drifting from the main point...look, i'll be blunt. i dont care if you think the breeder is shady bc i didnt ask your advice on how to pick a breeder, i asked advice on shipping (specifically with continental). I dont want to hear horror stories about breeders, mills, ect..bc i do NOT care. i was trying to make that clear bc i dont want you to waste your time giving me advice about breeders when im not going to listen, anyways. if youre posting advicee for other users, then fine. but dont do it for me.i admit, i stopped reading what you have to say after the part i quoted bc you sound lecture-ish and i dont care enough about what you have to say to "listen" to you lecture. im going to be blunt bc i want to make sure we are on the same page. i would be ok with ppl expressing concern about my breeder if you would show the same concern when OTHER breeders on here post sketchy stuff, too...i can bring up examples but id rather not bc im sure by this point everyone should know who those people are. And you are right. i didnt comment on the links b/c I didnt realize i was expected to give a review of what i thought, after I read it. Yes, I know Orchard Lane prob means well here. And she sounds like a nice person but most of her threads are so anti show breeder, i get the impression that no matter what my breeder does, my breeder will always be "wrong" in her eyes, anyway.
> 
> EDIT: if you want to say im "bitchy", "dumb," "an animal abuser," whatever im not going to argue bc i dont care ..i just want to know about people's experience w/ shipping a puppy through Continental Airlines. But i can see that is not going to happen, so im done with this thread. i will ship the dog unless i hear from someone who has personal experience with Continental abusing their pet.


The fact that you repeatedly say you "don't care" about these valid points is a concern for myself.

Based on your posts within this thread, I truly feel you are rushing into this situation and your heart is set on it and you are going through with it no matter what - no matter what ANYONE says which is a shame. Trying to force things and rush into situations like this are not good and often end up badly.

Asking for advice and then not being willing to accept the advice that is given is a shear sign that you just want us to tell you what YOU want to hear. 

I am sorry but I can't do that. I don't want to see you taken advantage of or worse your dog gets shipped and something happens to him.

I am not "anti-show breeder" - I am anti unethical/inhumane breeder. Many of the show breeders that I have met, visited and know are not ethical or humane and I could not in good faith condone their actions, programs or practices regardless of the championships they obtain in the ring. 

Many people (not just breeders) are great when you first meet them, then months (or in some cases years later) some interesting information comes up - it is important to remember that all is not what it appears to be in many cases.

Many people just assume because a breeder shows - they know what they are doing and they are a superior breeder. That is not true in many cases and it helps if there are people out there that are able to stand up for what is really right. 

I am pro-breeding and even pro-showing IF it is done with high standards in ethics - putting the dogs first in every aspect and not just saying it. Actions speak louder than words. There are few breeders show or non-show that meet my standards point blank. 

If you are comfortable buying a dog sight unseen and based on references that is your choice but it is not something that is recommended even by the Chihuahua Club of America, AKC, CKC, or the ASPCA.

The Chihuahua Club of America states:
http://www.chihuahuaclubofamerica.com/purchasing_tips.htm
"However, you must carefully screen breeders and *it is best to personally visit their kennels.*
*View the dog on the breeder’s premises, observing the home, kennel, other dogs and the manner in which they are raised.*"

The American Kennel Club states:
http://www.akc.org/future_dog_owner/about_buying_a_dog.cfm
"Once you select a breeder, screen the breeder. *Ask to see* at least one of the parents (the dam or the sire) of your puppy. *See how* the dogs *in your breeder's home* interact with your breeder. Are they friendly and outgoing or do they shy away? The responsible breeder will be screening you, too, looking for the best home for each puppy." 

The Canadian Kennel Club states:
http://www.ckc.ca/en/Default.aspx?tabid=113
"*Visit a number of breeders* and compare the dogs, the facilities and the breeders.

*The Golden Rules: Finding a Reputable Breeder

1. Always visit the kennel.
2. Make certain the dam (mother) is on the premises and available for you to see.* "

The ASPCA states:
http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=cruelty_puppymills_topten
"4. *See Where Your Puppy Was Born and Bred*
One sign that you are speaking to an unscrupulous breeder is that they will not let you see the facility in which your puppy was born. *Always ask to see the breeding premises* and to meet both parents (or at least the mother) of the puppy you want to take home. You should also ask for an adoption contract that explains―in terms you understand―the breeder’s responsibilities, health guarantee and return policy.

5. Internet Buyers, Beware!
Buying a puppy from the Internet is as risky as buying from a pet store. If you buy a puppy based on a picture and a phone call, you have no way of seeing the puppy’s breeding premises or meeting his parents. And those who sell animals on the Internet are not held to the Animal Welfare Act regulations―and so are not inspected by the USDA." 

None of those organizations recommend buying a dog without viewing the premises, seeing the dogs in person etc. - WHY? pictures can be stolen, references can be from "anyone" as the person provides YOU with the contact information etc. or from business associates of the breeder (IE: someone who has a stake in the sale of a dog) etc etc etc 

This advice is being given to *protect you*. Too many people have been taken advantage of - paid for but not received a dog, received a sick dog, received a mutt but paid for a purebred, received the wrong dog ... etc etc etc the list goes on and on. 

An good example of this is a breeder from my province. She is a registered breeder. She doesn't show but very nice looking nice stock. She doesn't health test though. She has tons of references she can provide you - one is a very reputable show breeder the USA (she purchased her stud dog from this breeder) and another one of her references is her vet (her vet doesn't give the reference for her but the vet tech does and the vet tech is a breeding partner for her). A general person would not know these details. So the references being given are biased as BOTH parties have something to gain by providing the reference and the relationship between her and the references is not disclosed (you need to find that out later or through some serious leg work).

It is buyer beware but if you are comfortable going against what most people AND breed organizations suggest - again that is your choice.

Just with shipping your dog. If you are comfortable with the statistics provided and stories provided above about Continental Airlines and still think it is a good idea ... then do it. 

Personally it is a risk I would never take with one of my dogs. It is an unnecessary risk - so why take it?

It is not a good idea to attack those that are trying to assist you. If you really want to go through with the sale of the dog then why not take the advice from the Chihuahua Club of America, AKC, CKC, AND the ASPCA and SEE THE PREMISES.

It is not about trying to attack the breeder of your dog - it is about trying to protect you. It is good that your breeder has never told you - that you couldn't come but it is better if you be pro-active and take the initiative and advice from people who HAVE been burned (or organizations that are respected world wide).


----------



## *Tricia* (Dec 1, 2007)

I think people are getting frustrated because you post about your dog being "God's gift" and make statements like "I treat my dogs different than other people" and you're concerned about your dog being conceited because you'll be showering him with attention, and then when someone takes the time to post a link with horrible info on the specific airline you're planning to use, instead of being concerned, you get mad. We all want your dog to make it home safely -- I would think you would appreciate that. You seem like you're going to be very over-protective of him, yet you're willing to allow all these other people with the airlines to be in charge of his safety and well-being after reading about the horrible things that have happened, and that bothers me. I'm sticking by my original post - I believe you need to drive to pick him up or fly there and carry him back home with you. In all seriousness, if it is too much trouble to go get him, I really think you need to consider if you're truly ready for all that comes with dog ownership. It's not all fun and games and people oohing and aahing over your little cutie -- there are going to be bad times you need to work through as well, and you will have to make sacrifices in your life if you're going to give him the kind of life he deserves. My concern is entirely for your puppy's safety and well-being, so I hope you don't get mad at that


----------



## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

hollysmommy said:


> I think people are getting frustrated because you post about your dog being "God's gift" and make statements like "I treat my dogs different than other people" and you're concerned about your dog being conceited because you'll be showering him with attention, and then when someone takes the time to post a link with horrible info on the specific airline you're planning to use, instead of being concerned, you get mad. We all want your dog to make it home safely -- I would think you would appreciate that. You seem like you're going to be very over-protective of him, yet you're willing to allow all these other people with the airlines to be in charge of his safety and well-being after reading about the horrible things that have happened, and that bothers me. I'm sticking by my original post - I believe you need to drive to pick him up or fly there and carry him back home with you. In all seriousness, if it is too much trouble to go get him, I really think you need to consider if you're truly ready for all that comes with dog ownership. It's not all fun and games and people oohing and aahing over your little cutie -- there are going to be bad times you need to work through as well, and you will have to make sacrifices in your life if you're going to give him the kind of life he deserves. My concern is entirely for your puppy's safety and well-being, so I hope you don't get mad at that


What it isn't all fun and games?!! hehe j/k

The statement you made, "In all seriousness, if it is too much trouble to go get him, I really think you need to consider if you're truly ready for all that comes with dog ownership." ... is HUGE for me as it is so very true. 

*The convenient thing to do and safe/healthy/right thing to do are usually not the same thing.*

Honestly, I may come off as harsh at times but I am a stickler for standards when it comes to dog care (I get a lot of flack from friends and family about my ethics *in life* not just with dogs!) 

BUT I have these standards and ethics in place because of how I was raised, the lessons I have learned in life from being involved in rescue for my ENTIRE adult life as well as the experiences I have had within/outside the dog world. 

Owning a dog is a HUGE responsibility. If you take all the necessary precautions in selecting a breeder and a dog then your chances of succeeding are greater. So why stop there? Why not rule out all unnecessary risks in getting your dog home?

chibellaxo - you went from wondering if shipping was safe versus driving as YOU wanted to pick up your dog - to being convinced by the breeder that is was safe for your puppy to be shipped and planning on using Continental Airlines for the shipping etc. despite what many people were suggesting. 

There are risks to shipping a dog. Regardless of the airline you choose. Too many risks in my opinion. Continental Airlines does NOT have the greatest track record and even recently have issues.

Going against well meaning and well supported advice is your choice but why do it when there are other alternatives?


----------



## KayC (May 3, 2005)

Zoey is"God's Gift" to me and I love her so much, she is spoiled rotten and lives on the pedestal at our house. She is not a bit conceited. I think all the members on here feel the same way or they would not spend time with others who LOVE their dogs. I would never expose her to the elements of an airplane. When I found her I drove for hours to different breeders. I would never buy a dog without meeting the breeder and the parents in their own enviorment and meeting as many siblings as I could. All the dogs we have ever had, It is always the same and I would never do it differently. When I was looking for Zoey I came across so many shadey breeders and even a puppy mill (that I turned in). All these people sounded great on the phone or looked good on their websites and in the paper, but when I met some of them I was appaulled. That is what I wanted to say.


----------



## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

Why even ask, you seem like you already have your mind made up no matter what anyone tells you anyway =/


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Krista said:


> Why even ask, you seem like you already have your mind made up no matter what anyone tells you anyway =/


when did i ask permission to ship my own dog to myself???? i asked "is it really better to ship" then later i asked for personal experiences with shipping. instead, i get people attacking the breeder. im not upset that people think shipping is bad, im annoyed that people wont stop insinuating that my breeder is irresponsible but no one says anything to all the BYBs on here. and while we are on the subject, my dog is "god gift" bc he is SO beautiful that he should have never went to a pet home. It was a big stroke of good fortune that he became mine. This boy is not the typical chi i couldve picked up from any breeder. hes not even the type of dog i couldve picked up at any show breeder ( bc most would NEVER allow such a dog to go to a pet home if it werent for his retained testicles). im not a fool, i know im lucky and everyday i thank God his breeder contacted me. this isnt me being blinded bc hes my dog ( like some of the comparisons being brought up). i knew he was gorgeous before i got him, which is the main reason why i jumped at the opportunity to have him. if he were someone else's dog on here, id still be in love with him (and thats BIG bc im super picky when it comes to chis). AFTER deciding he was beautiful and a fab specimen of the breed did i allow myself to open up to him.

also, i think there was some confusion. i wasnt asking if YOU would personally ship your dog, Krista. i was asking if it was safe in general. i read the articles, i figured in how many animals are shipped each year, factored in the breeder's opinion AND experience with shipping chis, and his vet's assessment of his overall health and ive decided that the reasoning presented to me here ( though much appreciated) werent strong enough to sway me from shipping the boy. I realize youre all concerned but i want this dog to get here safely more than any of you do bc i have the biggest stake in him. I am the one who payed for him, talked with his breeder, and allowed myself to grow attached. So,after everything ive read, if i genuinely believed shipping him would be awful, i wouldnt do it....


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Zoey's Mom said:


> When I was looking for Zoey I came across so many shadey breeders and even a puppy mill (that I turned in). All these people sounded great on the phone or looked good on their websites and in the paper, but when I met some of them I was appaulled. That is what I wanted to say.


yeah, that would be the only reason for me to meet the breeder( if her being a BYB would change my mind about getting the dog). But at this point, she could be a full blown miller-- if shes selling me the dog that i fell for, i would still get him. im not trying to save every puppy bc, at this point, i realize that i cant. so, im just trying to get this dog to me and get on with my life. if shes nice ( like i think she is) then great, we could be friends. if not, ill just take the dog and focus on making sure that all his needs are met.


----------



## KayC (May 3, 2005)

Keep us posted. I wish you the best.


----------



## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

chibellaxo said:


> when did i ask permission to ship my own dog to myself???? i asked "is it really better to ship" then later i asked for personal experiences with shipping. instead, i get people attacking the breeder. im not upset that people think shipping is bad, im annoyed that people wont stop insinuating that my breeder is irresponsible but no one says anything to all the BYBs on here. and while we are on the subject, my dog is "god gift" bc he is SO beautiful that he should have never went to a pet home. It was a big stroke of good fortune that he became mine. This boy is not the typical chi i couldve picked up from any breeder. hes not even the type of dog i couldve picked up at any show breeder ( bc most would NEVER allow such a dog to go to a pet home if it werent for his retained testicles). im not a fool, i know im lucky and everyday i thank God his breeder contacted me. this isnt me being blinded bc hes my dog ( like some of the comparisons being brought up). i knew he was gorgeous before i got him, which is the main reason why i jumped at the opportunity to have him. if he were someone else's dog on here, id still be in love with him (and thats BIG bc im super picky when it comes to chis). AFTER deciding he was beautiful and a fab specimen of the breed did i allow myself to open up to him.
> 
> also, i think there was some confusion. i wasnt asking if YOU would personally ship your dog, Krista. i was asking if it was safe in general. i read the articles, i figured in how many animals are shipped each year, factored in the breeder's opinion AND experience with shipping chis, and his vet's assessment of his overall health and ive decided that the reasoning presented to me here ( though much appreciated) werent strong enough to sway me from shipping the boy. I realize youre all concerned but i want this dog to get here safely more than any of you do bc i have the biggest stake in him. I am the one who payed for him, talked with his breeder, and allowed myself to grow attached. So,after everything ive read, if i genuinely believed shipping him would be awful, i wouldnt do it....


lol, nope, no confusion at all, I definitely understand what you're saying, and no where did I think you were asking me. You asked if it was better to ship, everyone gave you tons of reasons why it isn't, and you won't listen. Instead you keep asking for more reasons. People then give you more, which you dismiss and then ask for even more experiences. Then they give you more, and you ignore and ask again. So all I was saying is why ask any more, you're going to ignore it  People here have given you tons of reasons why it is not better to ship ... tons. And yes, a lot of them have to do with the breeder, and for good reason. A good breeder would NOT insist on shipping. Maybe suggest it, but not insist. Also, I don't know where you got the idea that I said you were asking about shipping the dog yourself ... that kinda came from nowhere, I didn't suggest that at all.


----------



## Jayne (Jul 8, 2005)

Thanks for all your comments, Think this thread has run its course now so its being locked


----------

