# UK KENNEL CLUB QUESTION SC Vs LC



## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

hi there.
i was just wondering if anyone knows of this as i was a bit confused today, 
well i got my first chihuahua zac by going onto the uk kennel club website to search for accredited breeders and found zacs breeder, i phoned her and she told me she had long coat pups and smooth coat pups availible she was asking £1000 for smooth coats but she then told me i could have a long coat for £800 kc registered no jags, so i thought i would go with the long coat when asked if i could come get the pup she said she would be best meeting me somewhere easy for me to find rather than trying to find her house, so i agreed i was to meet her husband in asda at ayr so i went handed over the money and the hubby handed me the pup i asked wher the papers where he said she would post them out to me, when i got in the car i thought the pup looked like a smooth coat but headed home 1hr drive from ayr, on the way home my phone kept ringing but i didnt answer it cause i was driving i got home and checked my phone hundreds of missed calls and messages from the breeder telling me i had the wrong pup and needed to get it back to her, meenwhile my kids are bonding with their new pup and were devestated when i told them it had to go back it was now 10 at night she said leave it till tomorrow wich i replied was no good my kids were bad enough about the pup going back so didnt want them to bond with it anymore i was tempted just to tell her i was keeping the pup as it was her mistake but she sent through a photo of zac and his other litter mates 2 smooth coats and 2 long and we fell in love with him straight away i agreed to take the smooth coat back and pic up zac he was only about 6-7 weeks old wich now i think was too young to leave his mum anyway drove the hr drive to her house and out she came with the pup and the mum and dad dog so i was told but heres the thing mum and dad dog where both smooth coats i asked for his kc reg papers and she handed them over then when i got home i read the papers and zac was stated as smooth coat i hadnt bothered questioning it till someone told me a smooth coat and long coat pups cannot be registered by kc and honey is a long coat so if i ever decided to let honey have a litter the pups cannot be registered i cannot get my head round how 2 smooth coats could have a mixed litter lc & sc i conntacted her as its been bothering me latley and she said its ok she can get his papers rectifyed and changed to long coat do you think this sounds true im a bit confused she says ive to send his papers back to her and she will get the kc to change him from smooth coat to long coat wich he clearly is hope im not being conned and she gets my papers back to me dont know if im being to untrusting what do you all think ?
xx mandy

her are the pic from the breeder
zacs the wee odd ball thats what we liked about him










here he is on his own


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I am not sure about the UKC but here in the states the AKC will allow you to register a litter of SC and LC's. I also know that it IS possible for the 2 SC's to produce LC's and it IS possible for 2 LC's to produce SC's in a litter. It does not have to do with just parents but also what the grand parents are. I am not sure why they would not allow you to register a LC though? that sounds odd to me.

It also sounds odd to me that they wanted to meet with you instead of you going to their house, and how they could make such a mistake? If it were me and they wanted the pup back after I had already made the drive, I would have made them come after the puppy. Also it bothers me that when you took the puppy back that they still did not let you view the litter and see the environment? Sounds fishy to me?? Yes 6 or 7 weeks are still to young for the puppies to leave the litter? You said you got this breeder info off of the UKC website? I would contact the UKC and have them look into this breeder. It sounds like they could be shady or even possibly be a puppy mill? 

In the states the LC would have costed more than the SC.


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## jeanie brown (Jan 5, 2009)

i agree 100 % with yoshismom it sounds very fishy . and in the


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## jeanie brown (Jan 5, 2009)

SORRY PRESSED BEFORE i finished im always fdoing that , I was going to say in the uk £1000 is an awful lot of money for a pup with no papers no puppy pack and asdas carpark??


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

she did give me papers for zac when i went back out to collect him it was the short coat she gave me by mistake that never had the papers thn zacs papers say hes a smooth coat i spoke to her on the phone today about it and she said ive to send zacs papers out to her address and she will get kennel club to rectify them to long coat do you think i sould send them to her?


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## jeanie brown (Jan 5, 2009)

hes sooo cute


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

are the parents long coats or short coats ?
it is possible that either can produce the other coat BUT I think only the right coat type can be registered. I don't think the KC will change the registration of coat type on a puppy. It all seems very odd to me. What was she so scared you would see in her house. There is no way I would let any puppy of mine leave this house at 6 weeks. AND if the KC knew puppies were being treated in this way I hope they would have a close look at her registration.


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

> are the parents long coats or short coats ?
> it is possible that either can produce the other coat BUT I think only the right coat type can be registered. I don't think the KC will change the registration of coat type on a puppy. It all seems very odd to me. What was she so scared you would see in her house. There is no way I would let any puppy of mine leave this house at 6 weeks. AND if the KC knew puppies were being treated in this way I hope they would have a close look at her registration.


both zacs parents were smooth coats yet the litter was 2 smooth and 2 longcoats in the photo above i asked her today why he was down as smooth coat she says its cause she registered them a week after they were born and she thought they were all gonna be smooth coats its all very confusing cant see how 2 smooth coats could have a mixed litter


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

mazza lovin my chi's said:


> both zacs parents were smooth coats yet the litter was 2 smooth and 2 longcoats in the photo above i asked her today why he was down as smooth coat she says its cause she registered them a week after they were born and she thought they were all gonna be smooth coats its all very confusing cant see how 2 smooth coats could have a mixed litter


It is possible BUT and a big BUT I don't think you can register long coats to short coat parents.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

God that was a long posting LOL.

Firstly you should NEVER have met the breeder somewhere, to me you should have seen the puppies with their mother.

Secondly there is no way could the breeder have mistaken a long for a smooth. Looking at the photo's you can plainly see 2 cream smooth coats, 1 cream long coat and a red sable long coat. (NO WAY COULD SHE HAVE CONFUSED THEM!)

Granted sometimes it is hard to tell when they are newborn puppies but I doubt that they were registered at birth. (not many in the UK do that)

Right cross breeding. You CAN get a long coat from 2 smooth coats BUT you are not supposed to be able to get a smooth coat from 2 long coats. (there are some breeders that dispute this)

Do you mean that the papers the breeder gave you were for one of the smooth coats in the litter? Or that he was registered incorrectly?

On his registration documents does it name a colour (which it should do) Yours may read red sable or red. That is what I would have registered him as.

If you get a long coat and it has been registered as a smooth coat by mistake it is possible to change the registrations documents. I think I would be tempted to ring the KC and ask if the papers NEED to be returned or whether they can change the papers without returning them. Ask the KC if you can do it rather than the breeder having to do it.

Make sure you tell them that you used their web site to contact the breeder as you thought it would be more likely to be a reputable breeder.

Where they by any chance an accreditted breeder?


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

> God that was a long posting LOL.
> 
> Firstly you should NEVER have met the breeder somewhere, to me you should have seen the puppies with their mother.
> 
> ...


yeah i thought that was not the norm i asked to see the parents when i went back for zac and she just brought the 2 smooth coat parents out to my car she said its cause her neighbours complain of the dogs barking

she said it was cause she registered them at a week old it was hard to tell their coats

his papers do state him as red sable 
but smooth coat when he is clearly long coat that is the discrepincy*(mistake lol)dont know if the spelling was right

yes she was an accredited breeder i think she also shows chihuahuas or did


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

It is possible to register a long coat from 2 smooth coats but it can NEVER be mated to a smooth coat and ONLY to a long coat.

It is not very often it happens but the only way you can get smooth coat gene's into long coat lines. My current show boy does go back to smooth coats on both sides of his pedigree.

If she is an acreditted breeder then both parents should be DNA'd and/or chipped. I am not totally up on AB because personally think it is a big money spinning scheme (but that's just my opinion)

You should have been given a wallet where you can grade your AB by the way - apparently it is how the KC gets feedback on them


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

thank you for your help and advise i think i will call the kc myself tomorow and find out what should be done 
at least my mind has been settled a bit 
so am i right zacs parents could have been 2 smooth coats as thats what i couldent get my head round


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

yes, it is definatley possible - had it been the other way around and a smooth from 2 longs I would have had serious doubts. If you want to ask anything else without posting just email me [email protected]

What is in his pedigree - if there are any dogs names which I know I would probably be able o say whether they were longs or smooths.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

Yes, 2 Smooth Coats can produce a Long Coat. So it IS possible that they are the parents just everything else seems to be weird? Call you KC and ask them about changing from sc to lc before contacting your breeder again. I would also let the KC know your experience with this breeder as she should be looked into 

ETA...sorry Jesshan we must have been typing at the same time, LOL ;-)


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

> yes, it is definatley possible - had it been the other way around and a smooth from 2 longs I would have had serious doubts. If you want to ask anything else without posting just email me [email protected]
> 
> What is in his pedigree - if there are any dogs names which I know I would probably be able o say whether they were longs or smooths.


sire = copymear keiren
dam = cream of cadlyn


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

there is a lot starting with veejim and a lot of copymear also arrendene and yetagen and dachidas dont know if this is of help


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

mazza lovin my chi's said:


> there is a lot starting with veejim and a lot of copymear also arrendene and yetagen and dachidas dont know if this is of help


Yes, generally veejim is smooth coat as is copymear - the partner of copymear is in long coats but has a different affix.

Arrendene, Yetagen and Dachidas are predominately smooth coat breeders - Dachidas does have a few longs but mainly smooths at the minute.

Chances are the veejim one is EURO SHOCKWAVE?


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

ok phoned the kc and told them my perdiciment about the papers so she sent me out a form ive sent it to the breeder for a signature but i did not send the papers to her once ive got her signature i will send it and the papers back to kc and hopfully they will fix them for me i will keep you posted on how i get on

thanks everyone for the advise x mandy


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

What carry on!
Hope everything is soon sorted.


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## Pinkchi (Nov 21, 2008)

Wow what a long post! Hope ya get it sorted out in the end!
Zac is gorgeous anyhow x


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## guest185 (Oct 27, 2008)

Do you need the papers because you intend to breed/show or are you just pee'd at the mishaps with the breeder? Either way, hope it gets sorted x


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

> do you need the papers because you intend to breed/show or are you just pee'd at the mishaps with the breeder? Either way, hope it gets sorted x


i might breed honey and zac in the future would like them to maybe have a litter but mostly just want to make sure he has the proper papers


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

arghhhhhhhhh im getting so angry with this lady (breeder)!!!!!:foxes15::foxes15:
as i told yous i sent the form to her for a signature so i can send it back to the kennel club to get this sorted,
recieved a letter in the post from her today saying now she thinks i may have the wrong papers all together she says someone else has sent papers back to her to get changed from longcoat to smoothcoat and is now saying she must have muddled the papers up and still wanting me to send the papers i have back to her (but i have told her there is no way i will be sending any papers back to her untill i have recieved zacs proper papers i have also told her she owes me money for change of ownership and stuff im getting really fed up with her now but there is no way im sending any papers to her till i have zacs here 

SOME BREEDER SHE IS DOSENT SEEM TO KNOW WHAT SHE IS DOING


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

the thing is i forgot to mention she says she has to get the other papers back from the kennel club as she sent them away to get changed i think shes at it 
far to many mistakes from the so called breeder


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## Vicki (Mar 4, 2009)

Oh my gosh!! You poor thing!!First off..that little boy of yours is sooo hansom!!I wouldn't be able to part with him!! Second...is that a normal price to pay in the UK?I paid a lot for Arabella ..but not THAT much!! Third...can you get the KC to do an investigation about that breeder?there must be standards that she has to meet...and she certainly doesn't sound like she has met them..
I hope you can get this straightened up......at least you will have a lot more knowledge about a breeders responsibilities before you decide to breed.Good luck and keep us up to date!!


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## michellell (Mar 2, 2009)

It all sounds very fishy to me. How on earth could she mistake Zac for the other puppies, by the look of the photo he is competely different. The very fact that the hubby met you in an Asda car park also hints at something not quite right. I think your Zac is such a lovely puppy.


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

> It all sounds very fishy to me. How on earth could she mistake Zac for the other puppies, by the look of the photo he is competely different. The very fact that the hubby met you in an Asda car park also hints at something not quite right. I think your Zac is such a lovely puppy.


apparently she said there was a smoothcoat red sable in the litter that went the day before.
shes saying thats were the mix ups been 
and she had just sent its papers away to get rectifyed a few days before i phoned and after i phoned she says thats when she realized what the mistake was (the papers being mixed up)

yeah zac is the best i love him papers or not but i just dont like the way this breeder has been x


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

honeys breeder was the exact oppisite
everything was perfect saw her and her littermates and parents together all vaccinations and vet checs were up to date she was 12 weeks when we got her eating well also lorraine regularly emails to see how honey is and for photo updates of her 

even when i contacted zacs breeder not once has she asked how zacs doing shees definetly in it for money money money i think someone called it a greeder !!!!!


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## michellell (Mar 2, 2009)

Its a shame some people are like that. My ex-husband had to deal with a lot of people like that - breeding puppies with no thought as to what they were doing. Did you even manage to get inside her house?


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

Hi just a wee update
right just got the papers from that so called breeder that are supposed to be zacs correct papers theY state red sable long coat wich is correct now 
but i was shocked to see that zacs dob was not 18/9/08 the actual dob is 1/10/08 wich would mean zac was only about 4-5 weeks when i got him and i thought 6-7 was bad 
no wonder my poor baby didnt know how to eat properly
and only weighed 750grams when i got him 
what an auful breeder and i have been on the phone and told her that and that i dont think she should be breeding pups as she dosnt know what she is doing she then hung up on me and will no longer answer my calls 

so i think thats my dealings finished with that auwfull woman thank god

i love my boy and wouldent change him for the world but other folks who get a pup from her might not be soo lucky i just count my blessings my boy is now healthy and eating and i am soo glad to hve him xx


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