# A puppy miller who SHOWS??



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

There is a woman with a dog I like but I really suspect the lady who is selling him might be a puppy miller-- but it doesnt even make any sense because she doesnt really fit the profile of a miller. Millers are suppossed to have substandard dogs, right? Yet, some of the puppies she bred went on to become AKC CHs. Plus, she has shown in Westminster in 2006 ( albeit, the dogs she showed were not chis). 

Also, on her site she claims to have passed the akc inspection "with flying colors" and she also show chis too..plus, she was recommended by the CCA breeder who's boy I was going to get... but yet she has over 14 females and 9 guys ( most of the guys are CHs). It just doesnt make sense to me because she fits the profile of a miller ( she didnt ask me any questions, sells her chis for really cheap, and doesnt guarantee her chi's patellas or for hydrocephalus past 6 months, but Im not sure if most legit breeders will cover hydrocephalus past 6 months,anyway?). 

So, do you think she is a puppy miller? Puppy millers dont produce CH dogs, right? If I buy from her, its only because I feel so bad for the puppy I like. He doesnt seem to energetic in his pics  Her prices are dirt cheap and shes even willing to cut her prices more if a buyer cant afford it.

Whats weird, too is, the parents were tested, the puppies have 3 vaccines before they go, and have had 2 dewormings and are not allowed to leave before they are 10 weeks old. Maybe she is just a multimillionaire who really wants everyone to experience the joy of owning a chi...what do you think?


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

Is this the same one that says that Chis do not need to be checked for Patellas only larger breeds?

There is definately a chance that she is a byb shower? There are not so great breeders that try to show there Chis and sometimes finish them. There are also people that unknowingly buy Chis that do not conform to standard and try them in the ring.


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

No, the one that said that was the one from South Carolina  Im still amazed she managed to sell them to CCA members. She also sold her puppies to a puppy miller and when I showed her proof, she told me that the miller just named her dog after her program to try to ride off of her coat tails, but I dont know because she told me that she doesnt sell to millers or BYB but then told me, if I wanted to breed the dog she wouldnt stop me. All of this is the woman in SC...


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## Keeffer (Feb 26, 2008)

14 females and 9 males make 23 chis. Thats not to much I think. Maybe she breeds for a long time. I know a few breeders that have over 30 dogs, but they breed for more than 10 years now. And they don't rehome their adult chi's after their last litter. So the number of Chi's wouldn't be a concern to me. Also I think you can never guarantee that a chi doesn't have patella. But you can put in the contract that the new owner gets his money back if the dog has a genetic fault.

If the puppys don't look good, than don't buy them. A puppy miller can produce champions, just to make people think they are good breeders. Low prices don't mean that it's a puppy mill. I've seen the prices from a few puppy mills and they mostly ask even more than a good breeder. Maybe you should just go to visit and if it doesn't feel right, you just don't buy a puppy.


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## cocopuff (Mar 27, 2004)

Having that many does doesn't make a puppy miller. 

Does she care who buys her dogs? Does she sell to pet stores? Is that her only job or does she work outside the house? How often does her dogs get bred? Does she breed to better the breed or just for the money? 

I feel as long as they care about every puppy they bring into this world and the conditions that they live in is more important than how many breeding females they have. You can have a Miller that only has 10 puppies a year that doesn't care less about them, only the money and a Breeder that has 100 puppies a year that does. I would rather buy from the breeder who has lots of puppies than the Miller that only has a few.


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## Wahmom (Jan 21, 2008)

you're hearing that "little voice", if it were me, I'd check and double check then if the answers don't add up look elsewhere.
Only you can know what you're comfortable with, (# of dogs, health testing), 
Rhonda,Peanut,Izzy,Cricket & Honey


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

We rescued Rosie who has a good pedigree our smallest chi from a show-er, cruft judge and kc breeder person, she had most of her dogs taken into a dogs rescue and a few got sold before the rescue got hold of them she also had puppies in the house that she wouldnt let anyone see at the time, she got in way over her head with too many, dont know if she still is around!


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

a lot of you brought up some good points. This breeder has been breeding for quiet awhile- for about 25 years. However, 23 intact dogs seems a bit much. For the life of me, I cannot understand how they keep the dogs from mating (and therefore, preventing unwanted litters) unless they have a HUGE mansion...or the dogs are locked up. 
She sounds ( to me) like the type of breeder from where Sullysmom got Rosie. However, knowing this makes me sad. No animal deserves this, especially not young helpless puppies. I think I am going to just rescue this puppy ( or one of the puppies) then try to anonymously report her


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## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

You do find a lot of breeders "show" "mill" or otherwise have a lot of dogs. I personally call it 'dog collecting' when it appears people acquire additional dogs just because they are small and easy so why not have another one. It's a pretty common syndrome among people who own toy breeds. It can be more to do with fulfilling the owners emotional need to have another instead of thinking of the dogs welfare.

Personally to me that does sound like an awful lot of dogs, but you can't report someone unless the dogs are either being mistreated, neglected or over bred. Also I personally have little faith in the KC as far as house inspections go in all honesty they are just a registry and in most instances really don't care what they register, if two people (or in some cases one if they own both the dogs) sign the piece of registration paper and have registration numbers thats all they generally want, (they seem to support a lot of breeding practices that in my own personal beliefs are morally wrong such as number of litters they'll let people breed from a particular bitch, close inbreeding and generally checking as to if the information provided is actually true). It is up to the person buying the particular dog to view the surroundings the dog came from and make the decision themselves as to if they wish to support this particular person who bred the puppy in question. Rely on your own personal instincts not on what other people have said. At the end of the day it is you who is getting the puppy.

I will say one thing though if you aren't happy with the breeder go to someone else, after all this is your choice, you don't have to get puppy from this particular person.


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## Stephy (Aug 29, 2007)

I have not read all of the other response but here is my 2 cents. 

Puppymillers can show. Puppymillers can be clean environments where the dogs are taken care of. Puppymillers can have standard dogs. What makes them a mill is churing out dogs for money. 

She has 23 dogs total?! that is WAY too many for the average person. Most people who show dogs will have a select few that they breed, and usually do not repeat breedings. They do not usually commit to 23 dogs. 

Does she test them before breeding? Does she spay/neuter non show quality dogs, or at least sell on a spay./neuter contract? Does she screen the buyers or give them to whomever has the money? All of these things factor in to mills, and BYBs. I belive this person IS a mill because of the number of dogs she has. There is no way ONE person can take care of that many dogs properly if they are truely commited to showing. It takes time, money, commitment. A person with that many dogs, reguardless of pedigree or show standings IS a mill. No doubt about it . 

I wouldn't buy from her. It's hard to find a GREAT and proper breeder. I myself wanted to breed at one point and time, I had a mentor and everything. I found out that person is nothing more than a BYB. I won't breed dogs unless under the perfect cirucumstances. So, I would rather rescue when the kids are older and I have more time.


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

I also got Rosie for nothing so was very lucky!


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2008)

IMO just because she shows it doesn't mean she's a good breeder, the show world is a scary place and you get a lot of people showing who I'd never even consider buying a dog from.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I agree that just because they show does not make them reputable. There are plenty of byb showers and breeders in the rings. I see alot in the great dane world and I have seen a few in the Chihuahua world. You can really tell the difference in the ring between poorly bred and well bred;-)


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## Jessica (Jul 11, 2004)

I PM'ed you


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

thank you, Jessica


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

chibellaxo said:


> If I buy from her, its only because I feel so bad for the puppy I like.


To me, that's not the best reason to buy a puppy .... or even a good reason maybe?  You should buy a puppy you love, not one you feel sorry for. I wouldn't buy from her if that's your only reason to do so.


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Krista said:


> To me, that's not the best reason to buy a puppy .... or even a good reason maybe?  You should buy a puppy you love, not one you feel sorry for. I wouldn't buy from her if that's your only reason to do so.


Well, realistically, I cant really love a puppy I have never met. So, I try to base my decision on whichever moves my heart...this little one moves me. Out of all the puppies, he is the one that has moved me the most. But Im def still looking because I might find one that moves me even more. However, Im not ruling him out, either


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## vviccles1 (Feb 13, 2007)

Donna, you were very lucky to get such a high quality dog,however Rosie is the luckiest little girl to have you for her Mummy!


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

*Sarah* said:


> You do find a lot of breeders "show" "mill" or otherwise have a lot of dogs. I personally call it 'dog collecting' when it appears people acquire additional dogs just because they are small and easy so why not have another one. It's a pretty common syndrome among people who own toy breeds. It can be more to do with fulfilling the owners emotional need to have another instead of thinking of the dogs welfare.


That seems to be what it is with this woman's case. she emailed me last night and with the exception of having 23 dogs ( and her not so great health guarantee) she doesn't really have any faults. And I look hard for faults. The fact that she actually has her dogs health tested speaks volumes for her because it seems many breeders do not. Of course, I cant really decide until i speak with her AND see the dogs' living conditions; however, Im beginning to think that the reason she has so many chis is because she just has some sort of compulsion. She sent me more pictures of the puppy I like and another puppy I was considering, and now I am beginning to think that maybe the puppy I like is just really lazy; the other puppy looked happy and active

Unfortunately, I havent seen the dogs' living conditions but I suppose there is a possibility that she really is able to keep 23 intact dogs from having unwanted litters. Maybe some of those dogs live with her friends ( friends who are responsible and care for their dogs). I want to give her the benefit of the doubt. I plan on looking more into her and learning if she is a puppy mill or not...but right now, her only major fault seems to be that she has a lot of dogs.


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

vviccles1 said:


> Donna, you were very lucky to get such a high quality dog,however Rosie is the luckiest little girl to have you for her Mummy!


Thanks Vicki!


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

I have been in chihuahuas for 28 years now and there is no one in the show ring who I would not buy from or recommend. They have a reputation to upkeep and most try their best to do so. 

There are the odd ones who get themselves into difficulty but they do tend to be the "older" (no disrespect to any oldies on here LOL) but they keep their dogs the way they live. There have only been 2 people that I can recall who have had dogs taken away - one WAS banned but the other one got assisstance from the breed club. She was in over her head and couldn't cope - she is still around now, the one that got banned....no idea.

I have heard of a well known breeder in the US who sells his dogs at auction! This would never happen in the UK - definately not the done thing.

Just because they are show breeders does not mean they are bad either Jodie - you sound really bitter towards show people.

All you have to do it go on epupz and see how many people are advertising their puppies using well known breeders names/affixes and claiming they are "show quality". Some state they are well respected, experieinced show breeders yet have never been in the show ring.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

_It must be very different there Jesshan...sadly here in the rings in the states there are plenty of not so great breeders that are considered byb's that take there dogs in the ring, I figure more than anything it is one of there selling techniques to confuse people that go to the shows looking for pups. The people that do not know any better think that the people who are showing dogs would have to be good breeders. Ofcourse their dogs do not do well in the rings and are a dead give away to someone who has an ey for the breed but the unsuspecting gets sucked in:-(_


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Do they still auction dogs off in the US? I know this one guy was putting in an auction pregnant bitches, young puppies and bitches who had finished breeding. It really turns my stomach that! 

I know it is common practice in the US to take puppies to specialities and I have heard them being sold there - I know there are plenty over there who are not good breeders and yes they do show but I think that is because the US is so big. 

In the UK we travel vitually every couple of weeks or so to a show and you tend to find that the exhibitors will travel 100's of miles to go to a show. The ones in Scotland get a bus together and come down to the Midlands for a show and visa versa. I travelled down to East of England on Tuesday to exhibit (why I did now I do not know LOL) But that was just under 400 miles round trip. 

We see the same exhibitors week in week out at shows and a lot of them are my very good friends - I love going to shows and seeing them. A few years ago we went to Shelda Hornby's house when she lived in Southampton and had a girlie night out the day before Bournemouth Champ Show. I was from the North East, the rest were from Southern Ireland, Belfast, Manchester, Shropshire and Lincolnshire.

We had a great night but weren't too hot then next day! LOL


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2008)

I've been to shows before and I think a lot of people there don't seem to care as much for the dogs as they do for winning an award. I'm not aiming this at anyone here, just what I've seen at shows. I honestly would rather buy from just a breeder rather than a show breeder


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## Ciarra (May 6, 2008)

JoJoBean said:


> I've been to shows before and I think a lot of people there don't seem to care as much for the dogs as they do for winning an award. I'm not aiming this at anyone here, just what I've seen at shows. I honestly would rather buy from just a breeder rather than a show breeder


I agree, I would rather buy from a breeder than a show breeder.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

So what is the difference between a show breeder and a breeder? How do you know a breeder is not a puppy farmer.

I would like to say that someone not bought from a breeder, Jodie wouldn't have Macky. 

I really do not know why you are so down on show breeders but it seems that every oppertunity you get you are having a dig at show breeders - what have "I" done to upset you? 

I think it is wrong of you to make such a statement as "people there don't seem to care as much for the dogs as they do for winning an award" that is a terrible thing to say. You obviously haven't taken the time to actually get to know show people but have already made up your mind that they are not as good as a "breeder"

May I ask which show you went to and how you came to this assumption?


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

i have a similar question to Jesshan's... If a breeder doesnt show their dogs, then how will they know (without being biased) that they are breeding to standard AND are improving their lines? Are judges willing to give evaluations for free? Just curious....


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

If I am asked an honest opinion I will give it. 

I judge at championship show level and have been assessed in order to be passed. I have done a confirmation and movement seminar and exam (which I got 96% in even though it was a utility breed seminar) and 100% on my hands on assessment where you had to point out 50 different points on a dog plus the rear and front angulation along with the height length ratios. 

the only problem givng opinions is that some people do not like hearing it.

i can not honestly see a "breeder" breeding to improve any faults the dogs have. whilst I appreciate that many people just want a puppy there are a lot these days having PL and needing operations. There are many who have overshot bites and can have problems eating.

I am not saying that every litter a show breeder has is perfect but the faults tend to be few and far between 

OK ready to be shot at again......


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

jesshan said:


> If I am asked an honest opinion I will give it.
> 
> I judge at championship show level and have been assessed in order to be passed. I have done a confirmation and movement seminar and exam (which I got 96% in even though it was a utility breed seminar) and 100% on my hands on assessment where you had to point out 50 different points on a dog plus the rear and front angulation along with the height length ratios.
> 
> ...


lol, why would you get shot at? youre not being mean or anything  a lot of small hobby breeders do seem well intentioned but from my experience, those that do not show do not have the eye of a show breeder. to me that is so important because that is why I am going to a breeder in the first place--to get a healthy puppy who is very close to the akc standards. otherwise, i would just go to the shelter because there are a lot of dogs who are so lovable and who need homes  

ALL puppies/dogs are loveable but we all have different tastes, lol. I am open to going to a breeder who doesnt show, if they can produce a dog that is very healthy and close to standards


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2008)

Can you seriously not post here without it being taken as a dig, I gave my opinion, it doesn't have to be the same as everyone elses 

Yes, Macky was bought from you by someone, I however didn't choose to buy from a show breeder, I homed him as he was needing a home. No I wouldn't have Macky but I also wouldn't know he existed so it wouldn't bother me that I didn't have him, if that makes sense :lol:

I don't need to justify my opinion, I don't like dog shows at all, or most of the people that show their dogs, my opinion. I have found them to be rude and pretty much up their own arses most of the time. They think because they show their dogs that that makes them the best breeders when that's so not true, a dog looking good doesn't make it a great dog. 

Again, just so people don't jump to conclusions, this isn't aimed at anyone here, it's just my opinion and my experiences 

oh, and just because I say I would only buy from a breeder not a show breeder it doesn't mean I'd buy from any old breeder, i.e. a puppy mill.

When I bought Roxy I went to visit the breeder before deciding anything, I made sure she didn't have numerous litters at the same time and she didn't, she had 2 girls and one litter, the other girl was spayed. She doesn't breed all the time and is nowhere near a puppy mill. Roxy's mum and dad both had heath checks and were in perfect condition. I know I bought from the right person 

There is as much a chance of a show breeder being a puppy mill as a none show breeder.

Jesshan, you seem desperate to make this into a you V me war of some kind and it's really not, I just happen to have a difference of opinion to you


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## Maleighchi (Jan 6, 2008)

chibellaxo said:


> lol, why would you get shot at? youre not being mean or anything  a lot of small hobby breeders do seem well intentioned but from my experience, those that do not show do not have the eye of a show breeder. to me that is so important because that is why I am going to a breeder in the first place--to get a healthy puppy who is very close to the akc standards. otherwise, i would just go to the shelter because there are a lot of dogs who are so lovable and who need homes



I use to think that way too, but I've been reminded by others that there are some breeds that are being bred to show are not the same as those being shown to do with nature and their instincts intended. (agility/herding/working etc) I know a few folks that show agility would never buy from those that show for conformation, and vise versa. (I'm talking shelties, Aussies, border collies, etc.) If you ever run into those that do either/or they'll tell you why they buy/breed the way they do.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

JoJoBean said:


> Can you seriously not post here without it being taken as a dig, I gave my opinion, it doesn't have to be the same as everyone elses
> 
> Yes, Macky was bought from you by someone, I however didn't choose to buy from a show breeder, I homed him as he was needing a home. No I wouldn't have Macky but I also wouldn't know he existed so it wouldn't bother me that I didn't have him, if that makes sense :lol:
> 
> ...


So your reason for being against a show breeders is because the time you have been to a dog show - no one spoke to you so you think all show breeders are up their own arses, your impression is from one experience. The other thing with buying from a show breeder is that they all talk to each other - so if someone has bought a puppy from me and go to someone else to buy one they ring me up and ask what that buyer is like - swing and roundabouts scenario - a bad buyer is talked about just so much as a bad breeder. I know of accredited breeders who are nothing more than a puppy farmer but does this mean because they don't show or only have 1 litter of puppies on the go they are OK. It is very easy to HIDE dogs when they have people coming to see. When someone comes to me I can produce the mother, grandmother and in some cases great grandmother. I can show uncles, cousins and aunties too. I don't sell everything I have, I keep some. My oldest until I lost her was almost 17, my current oldie is 13 and I have her daughter to who is nearly 9 I have my ones that are not having litters any more and who are still with me. I do not sell off my dogs when they have finished breeding.

If you dislike show people so much why are you using show peoples affixes on your epupz advert? You are using our names to try and sell Lucifer or is that different. You even mention Brad's call name and his full KC registered name?


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2008)

I have been to a lot more than 1 dog show and no, I don't mean because they wont talk to me that means they are up their own arses. They have spoken to me, I have had conversations with many people at shows on many different occasions, and not just chihuahua showers either. It's not they way they talk or if they talk or not, it is what they say, the way they act, basically the whole thing is what I look at and I don't like it, MY OPINION.

Disliking show people is a bit harsh, I said I don't like show breeders, I didn't say I don't like all show people, just that I wouldn't buy a puppy from them. I can think people are up their own arses and still like them. Just means I don't wear blinkers. 

I put who Lucifer was related to because some people like to know that information, pedigree and showing are different things, yes you need a pedigree to show but it doesn't mean everyone who is interested in a pedigree wants to show, if that makes sense. Some people want a dog that looks nice, i.e. Louie, but they don't want to show them. Louie is a perfect looking chihuahua and is also 100% healthy  There is nothing bad that can be said about my pups or the way they are looked after or the way I advertise them that can hold any ground so bring it on  You are more than welcome to come see them 

I would only buy pups from a breeder that has all their dogs insured, only breeds from each bitch 2 or 3 times and doesn't inbreed, i.e mother with son  that's just wrong, on so many levels. 

Just because a breeder doesn't show it doesn't mean they are breeding for money or that they are going to breed poor quality pups. The lady I bought Roxy from bred her mum 3 times then got her spayed, she has all her dogs insured and keeps her "retired" dogs, when I went to visit Roxy I saw her mum, her dad, her Aunt and her Grandma. I have been to visit a few times since, without warning on occasion and everything has been the same as the day I first went there. 
She is the kind of person I feel happy buying from. This is all I have been trying to say, MY OPINION, yet you seem to try to turn it into a dig at you at every opportunity. Yes, finally there is one in this post but before now nothing was aimed at you.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2008)

I have been informed that you have been bad mouthing me to people, if you have something to say to me could you say it to me either here or in a PM rather than going about gossiping things that are half truths. 

I've never done anything to you so I don't get why you feel the need to do this. ok so I don't like show breeders, what's the big deal? really?


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

JoJoBean said:


> I have been informed that you have been bad mouthing me to people, if you have something to say to me could you say it to me either here or in a PM rather than going about gossiping things that are half truths.
> 
> I've never done anything to you so I don't get why you feel the need to do this. ok so I don't like show breeders, what's the big deal? really?


Wrong again - I rose above commenting on your last post. I AM better than that. (and I have always said that I say things to people faces not behind their backs) 

What I did say and I quote "she thinks that show people are up their own arses and has a major dislike for show people. Amazing how when I mentioned this advert to her on another forum to advert seems to have now disapeared." Which it has. and "she said she would never buy from a show breeder and would only ever buy from a pet breeder"

There is nothing wrong with that - you have a pre-formed opinon of me and that is fine. You obviously think that "I" am one of those who is "up their own arse" Fine, I have probably had a lot worse said about me.

So you can go back to your spy - which doesn't take much to guess who it was and tell them if they are going to tittle tattle to get their facts right.


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

-deleted-


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## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Willowanne said:


> I use to think that way too, but I've been reminded by others that there are some breeds that are being bred to show are not the same as those being shown to do with nature and their instincts intended. (agility/herding/working etc) I know a few folks that show agility would never buy from those that show for conformation, and vise versa. (I'm talking shelties, Aussies, border collies, etc.) If you ever run into those that do either/or they'll tell you why they buy/breed the way they do.


LOL, i never thought of that...


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## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

I'm locking this thread. It has gone off topic and seems to be a conversation that should be had between 2 individuals and not the entire forum. Please be polite and if you have anything specific to talk to a member about use the PMs.


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