# High protein dog foods...?



## flippedstars

Okay, so...I recognize many of us are in different "camps"...kibbles, pre-mades, raw, home cooked. I don't want to get into (another!) debate about which is better. What I do want to know is...

The ultra premium kibbles have around 40% protein or higher, such as Orijen and EVO.

Raw, as received, is somewhere around 11% protein.

Finally there are the pre-made raws, which as recieved seem to be the closest to the raw percentages, ranging from 13-17% protein.

The outlier seems to be the ultra premium kibbles, up in that 40% range.

Is that high amount of protein OK for dogs? I am not questioning that dogs are carnivores, but I am curious why if in the wild they aren't getting that much protein, they need it in kibble? 

I'm really not trying to cause an argument, I am just trying to understand. I don't deny at all that the ingredients in a kibble like Orijen are great, but its also confusing. I also wonder how much is "left" after all the processing...I'm not even exactly sure what the question is here, lol, I'm just trying to understand why the "best" kibble differs so drastically from a raw diet??


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## MChis

Kristy...I think the biggest difference is that with raw (even premades) the "whole" food includes moisture whereas kibbles do not. They're more a consentrated product I guess you could say?

Just recently (actually while I was feeding dehydrated ZiwiPeak) I realized that all "dry" food should really have water added to aid with the digesting process. Sure the dog food companies & even vets may not say its necessary & maybe my thinking is off but it would make a lot of sense to me that it would be healthier & not be so hard on their systems. I would prefer feeding a wet food. Wet ZiwiPeak IMO is THE closest to feeding raw w/o feeding raw as it has the moisture already included--also has a lower protein content I believe. I don't know what the protein in the premades are because I've never fed them but I'm guessing its also lower because they too are hydrated?

I dunno, the processing kibble goes through (even the higher quality) scares the bajesus outta me. I remember feeding EVO--when I added water to Maris food (per the vet after having some baby teeth out), I let it sit for several minutes & it was still as hard as it was before adding water. Hadn't even started to absorb the water. Yikes! I know their systems can break stuff down but it must have taken a good long while (and for them to drink a lot of water in the process) for it to break down enough to continue digesting...

Anyway, I'm not sure I answered your question but those are my thought on different foods, protein & how they break down/process.


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## cprcheetah

Here is a link I found that has a bunch of information about the higher levels of protein: 
High Protein Dog Foods - Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca

My take on it is because the extrusion process eliminates the moisture, they have to use higher protein levels to get the same benefits as the raw diet? Don't know if that's right but that's my guess. Also my understanding is that the other ingredients in the foods also add to the protein levels, so you might not be seeing 40% protein as all meat protein.


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## Brodysmom

Kristi - you always have such good questions. 

Be sure you are comparing apples to apples. A lot of the meat protein in kibble is starch and carbs. Veggies. Even the grain free foods have to have a binder, so they use potato. 

If you took all the vegetables proteins and soy out of the kibble, the actual meat protein would be quite a bit less. 

Look at canned food. It is has water added to it, so you typically see proteins level in the 8-12% range. That water really brings the protein level down.

I personally think that 'high protein' is a marketing tool for some kibble manufacturers. To most of us protein equals meat, so if you see a label on dog food that says high protein, you are going to think it has more meat in it and would probably want to buy it. Nobody is going to want to buy a dog food that says "low protein". 

Protein levels just keep going up since grain free seems to be the trend now. The companies are all jumping on the bandwagon, wanting higher and higher protein levels. 

Wysong just introduced a new kibble called 'epigen' that has 60% protein! They are marketing it as the first 'starch free' dry dog food. Is it a marketing gimmick? Decide for yourself ....

http://www.wysongepigen.net/Epigen Flyer.pdf

Wysong Epigen™ Starch Free™ Dog Food, Cat Food, Pet Food

Bottom line, as Heather pointed out, is that if you are feeding dry dog food - please add water to it!  It's much easier on the dogs system and healthier. As we know the old adage of kibble cleaning teeth is a myth. So there's no reason why kibble shouldn't be soaked first to make it easier to digest.


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## cherper

I have wondered this as well. Especially considering i made a switch to orijen which is a high protein food, from Fromm. I had hoped more protein , less carbs would help leila feel more satisfied as she seems to LOVE her food! It doesn't seem to have made a difference i dont' feel. I know for myself, when i am really limiting my carbs and increasing proteins and fats, my hunger really drops and i don't eat as much nor want to. 
I also decided to make the switch per all the wonderful reviews i've read on the web. But I would like to know as well that it's safe for her.


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## flippedstars

I just wonder what my dog really needs?? I have seen obvious benefits of increasing the amount of raw or minimally processed foods they are given, but I'll admit "reading" a bag of orijen is impressive. Ziwipeak is SO expensive but it seems to be better than any kibble by far. I really don't think I could ever go back to feeding a kibble again but sometimes I think I should have a bag on hand incase we had some kind of food shortage? I really don't know. Our freezer is only so big and not much of it is the dog's, I guess keeping Ziwi or something along those lines on hand isn't a bad idea.


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## JacksonsMommy

Interpreting Dog Food Labels

I thought this was a good example. 

All pet foods have different levels of moisture. Canned foods can have up to 80% moisture whereas, some dry foods can have as little as 6%. This is important for 2 reasons. The first is that the food is priced by the pound, and when you buy dog food that is 80% water you get 20% food and the rest is water. So the amount of food your pet consumes is small and expensive. The other reason for understanding percent moisture is to help you compare crude protein and fat between brands and between canned and dry. The listings on the label are for the food as it is fed, not as it would be on a dry matter basis. So without converting both brands of food to a dry matter basis you will not be able to compare them accurately. Fortunately, the conversion is not that complicated.

If a dry dog food has 10% moisture we know that it has 90% dry matter. So we look at the label and check the protein level that reads 20%. Next, we divide the 20 percent protein by the 90% dry matter and we get 22%, which is the amount of protein on a dry matter basis. Does this make sense so far? Good. Now let us compare this to canned food that has 80% moisture. We know that with 80% moisture we have 20% dry matter. The label shows 5% protein. So we take the 5% and divide it by 20% and we get 25% protein on a dry matter basis. So the canned food has more protein per pound on a dry matter basis after all the water is taken out. We can do the same for fat, fiber, etc.


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## Brodysmom

JacksonsMommy said:


> Interpreting Dog Food Labels
> 
> I thought this was a good example.
> 
> All pet foods have different levels of moisture. Canned foods can have up to 80% moisture whereas, some dry foods can have as little as 6%. This is important for 2 reasons. The first is that the food is priced by the pound, and when you buy dog food that is 80% water you get 20% food and the rest is water. So the amount of food your pet consumes is small and expensive. The other reason for understanding percent moisture is to help you compare crude protein and fat between brands and between canned and dry. The listings on the label are for the food as it is fed, not as it would be on a dry matter basis. So without converting both brands of food to a dry matter basis you will not be able to compare them accurately. Fortunately, the conversion is not that complicated.
> 
> If a dry dog food has 10% moisture we know that it has 90% dry matter. So we look at the label and check the protein level that reads 20%. Next, we divide the 20 percent protein by the 90% dry matter and we get 22%, which is the amount of protein on a dry matter basis. Does this make sense so far? Good. Now let us compare this to canned food that has 80% moisture. We know that with 80% moisture we have 20% dry matter. The label shows 5% protein. So we take the 5% and divide it by 20% and we get 25% protein on a dry matter basis. So the canned food has more protein per pound on a dry matter basis after all the water is taken out. We can do the same for fat, fiber, etc.


Great post Jacksons Mommy!!!


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## 18453

Kristi you are such a knowledge searcher it's fab


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## foggy

Great post, Kristi! I have wondered the same thing. I mostly feed The Honest Kitchen now and when I do mine drink hardly any water at all, whereas the times I feed Fromm they drink a lot. I still have a bag of Fromm on hand and still and use it from time to time, from now on when I use it, I'll definitely be adding water directly to it.


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## Deme

JacksonsMommy said:


> Interpreting Dog Food Labels
> 
> I thought this was a good example.
> 
> All pet foods have different levels of moisture. Canned foods can have up to 80% moisture whereas, some dry foods can have as little as 6%. This is important for 2 reasons. The first is that the food is priced by the pound, and when you buy dog food that is 80% water you get 20% food and the rest is water. So the amount of food your pet consumes is small and expensive. The other reason for understanding percent moisture is to help you compare crude protein and fat between brands and between canned and dry. The listings on the label are for the food as it is fed, not as it would be on a dry matter basis. So without converting both brands of food to a dry matter basis you will not be able to compare them accurately. Fortunately, the conversion is not that complicated.
> 
> If a dry dog food has 10% moisture we know that it has 90% dry matter. So we look at the label and check the protein level that reads 20%. Next, we divide the 20 percent protein by the 90% dry matter and we get 22%, which is the amount of protein on a dry matter basis. Does this make sense so far? Good. Now let us compare this to canned food that has 80% moisture. We know that with 80% moisture we have 20% dry matter. The label shows 5% protein. So we take the 5% and divide it by 20% and we get 25% protein on a dry matter basis. So the canned food has more protein per pound on a dry matter basis after all the water is taken out. We can do the same for fat, fiber, etc.


Dunno your name but that is another great post with a wealth of information, I have always wondered what all these by products etc are and been bamboozled by it all.

The only other thing is when they list percentages, not knowing what my dogs should be getting I wouldn't know if the % was too high or too low.

Deme x


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## YoQuiero

To my knowledge high protein is not good for small breeds because it taxes their livers. I've been told to stay under 28% to be safe.


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## MChis

See before I did my research I'd always been told that high protein was FINE for little dogs & not so much bigger ones. From what I've researched now the biggest stress on their kidneys is processing the kibble WITH OUT adequate moisture...no matter the quality (though a good quality does help but they still need added water to help it process). Also there are different types of proteins...proteins from the wrong sources (cereal grains) are bad on their systems where as proteins from meat aren't so much.


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## Amandarose531

I'm not sure, but I know in humans we can only absorb so much protein in a sitting anyway and without an aide (water in a lot of cases) it really can do a taxing on the digestion. I would THINK it would be similar with dogs, probably why a lot of the protein isn't actually meat protein so it would make sense that it just gets "pushed through" so to speak.


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## LDMomma

For emergency food situations, we have a bag of a Ziwipeak knock-off in our closet and the travel size HK packs with our hurricane evacuation stuff.


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