# Ollie's a DAD!!!!!!



## LandOliver (Mar 25, 2007)

SO here's our story....we had made an appointment at the vet to have Oliver neutered on friday. My husband took him because I had to work. When he arrived at the clinic my vet came out and said...(they have a chi female) "We really really like Oliver, and would love to breed him if it's okay with you before we neuter him" My husband called me at work and I just happen to have been on the phone. I said okay since I've had my vets for 11 years and I know them both very well. (They are a husband and wife team) They took Oliver on an overnight to thier house and I picked him up the next evening. Soooooo....Ollie is now a daddy and I have rescheduled his appointment. The huge debate now is this....do we keep the puppy if there is more than one....or do we sell....hmmmmmm...looks like another chi pup is on the way to my house. Or maybe not...I do have a full time job now and Im not sure thats fair to a new baby. Decisions, decions.....I'll keep you posted on the status of mom.


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## *Tiff* (Aug 7, 2007)

congrats! what does the mom chi look like?


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## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

Congrats I would keep the baby. Lots of people with fulltime jobs have chi puppies.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

no offence but a vet should NEVER use a 7month old male for breeding, a RESPONSIBLE breeder wouldnt use ANY stud under a year and a half, most wont breed a male till 2 yrs old...
and what kind of OFA or cert testing was done...
not to mention, from the pics ive seen Ollie is adorable but his head is not even close to breed standard...this is not a personal hit that ollies not cute, hes VERY cute, but not a chi whos genes should be passed on at this point...

*Sigh* youd think a vet would be Wiser...

not meant as a bash, but a 7month old male is WAY too young and a vet should know better...what kind of world is it when even VETS are irresponsible breeders...

Good luck...

and yes im aware this responce will ruffle some feathers...but we claim that we LOVE the breed and try to promote RESPONSIBLE breeding, so im just making a comment based on THAT.
its heart wrenching to know a vet would ignore all the rules...


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## rachel (Jun 16, 2006)

Good luck! I think I would have a hard time not keeping one, if it was me!


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## *Tiff* (Aug 7, 2007)

foxywench said:


> no offence but a vet should NEVER use a 7month old male for breeding, a RESPONSIBLE breeder wouldnt use ANY stud under a year and a half, most wont breed a male till 2 yrs old...
> and what kind of OFA or cert testing was done...
> not to mention, from the pics ive seen Ollie is adorable but his head is not even close to breed standard...this is not a personal hit that ollies not cute, hes VERY cute, but not a chi whos genes should be passed on at this point...
> 
> ...


i totally agree with you


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## ~*Jessie*~ (Aug 8, 2007)

I agree, Foxy! Great post


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## LandOliver (Mar 25, 2007)

My feathers aren't ruffled in the least....there's no possible way you can tell from the very few pictures I've posted of Ollie..WHAT his dimensions are...angles of the camera have ALOT to say about what a dog or any animal looks like when you photograph it. As for your post...I respect any and ALL advice that I see on this board. Maybe what my vet did IS the wrong thing...Im not a breeder and never ever claimed to be...in fact I was going to have him neutered and I still am. Maybe I got exited over seeing one of his puppies...~even bigger sigh~ not the first mistake I've made and certainly not the last. I'll still send in pics of his puppy if we get one...As always...LandO


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## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

I can't wait to see puppy pics! I hope the female has a smooth pregnancy and delivery and I hope you get to keep one of the pups!


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## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

Please do post pics of the puppy or puppies


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## Pauline Leland (Oct 9, 2006)

Why is a wait necessary before breeding a male? The only reason that comes to mind is that all genetic problems may not be evident until the dog is 2. That's a darn good reason, but are there others?


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## *Tiff* (Aug 7, 2007)

that and they arent done growing by 7 months old...i cant think of any other reason off of the top of my head but the genetic one is the most important IMO you dont want to pass on bad genes, its not healthy in the long run.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

primarily genetic health problems, luxation is a big one, treacha is another, and heart, eyes...as well as other possible genetic problems that are rarer but could be there...
many of these conditions do not show up untill 2yrs or older...for a proper HEALTHY breeding these are things you want to know before hand, and the only way to know for sure is through ofa and cerf testing which usually isnt done untill 1 1/2-2 yrs of age.

the males sperm IS viable at that age, but so is a 13 yr old human males...does that mean he should reporoduce?
and as tiff said, at 7 months hes not full size, the female hes breeding with could very well be too small for this dogs predetermined adult weight...or build
mostly however its to avoid any possible genetic issue though...

GOOD question!


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## CM Katie (Sep 28, 2005)

Hey at least it wasn't a 7-month old female, right?? 

I can't wait to see pictures of the puppies!! Congrats Papa Ollie


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## Sinead-Rocky (Jul 9, 2006)

I'd be more worried if it was a 7 month old female too!!........Has the pregnancy been confirmed yet?

Also, forgive me if I am wrong, but wouldnt the dog have more chance of having genetic defects if it's parents had any? 

And not for them to just occur in a pup whose parents are clear of any genetic problems?

As said, forgive me if I am barking up the wrong tree  Just wondered if anyone with any insite into this could answer my question ( I like to know things and will always ask questions if I am not 100% clued up on a subject  )


Thanks Sinead xx

P.S Cant wait to see puppy pics, so make sure you post some


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## the pink fairy (Jan 1, 2007)

I agree with Foxy's post but I would like to add on the point of Oliver's head not been to Chi standard - not eveyone is looking for a Chi to exact standard JMO.

Good advice as always Foxy.

xx


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## Rah (May 3, 2007)

I guess your vet wasn't so much interested in puppies that were the exact Chi standard - but more they were taken in by the way Ollie looked and wanted puppies that had the same physical characteristics as Ollie  He IS gorgeous. Although I agree it might have been better to wait a bit, and your vet was rather cheeky in asking! xD


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

sinead YES its more likely that a pup from 2 parents with problems will pas them on, however we dont know if olivers parents were ofa and cerf tested, AND just liek with kids, both parents can be CARRIERS for certain things that dont show up but still happen in their offspring.

and while some people dont "want" the prefect breed standard chihuahua, when breeding we must ALL strive to breed the BEST physical specimines of the breed with health and personality taken into account...

think of it this way...
not everyone wants show quality chis, so we breed chis willy nilly, oh that ones muzzle is too long and her legs are too long, but thats ok cause we only want pets...their offspring are just that, PET quality...but hey its ok cause thats what were breeding for, then those pups get bred to other pets who arnt quite to standard, their offspring look less like chihuhauas are supposed to than the parents do...and so it continues...
and eventually the little dog we all know and love partially because of the way they LOOK is gone and in its place a dog that looks more like a rat terrier or min pin or somethign completly odd...


ETHICAL RESPONSIBLE breeding is about "bettering" and preserving a breed...and a VET should be encouraging that kind of breeding above ALL others...they SHOULD know better!

personally if my vet did something like that, id be finding a new vet...
but im one of those crazy people who strongly belives if your going to breed ANYTHING (including yourself) You should do so with knowledge, time and reasearch, with perservation and the BEST results in mind...this vet may think ollies cute, because he is...but as a vet he should be aiming to better the breed by showing his dog, ofa and ceff testing his dog and using a stud that has some kind of show career and has too be ofa and cerf tested...


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## Sinead-Rocky (Jul 9, 2006)

Cheers for answering my question Foxy 
I agree about the way they are being bred and that the look is going to disappear and the chi we all love wont be the same in a few years time!

I cannot comment on Ollie's looks as I have never seen the pooch, and photos can be deceptive too, wrong angle etc etc.......


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## Jayne (Jul 8, 2005)

Cant wait to see puppy pictures !!


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

foxywench said:


> no offence but a vet should NEVER use a 7month old male for breeding, a RESPONSIBLE breeder wouldnt use ANY stud under a year and a half, most wont breed a male till 2 yrs old...
> and what kind of OFA or cert testing was done...
> not to mention, from the pics ive seen Ollie is adorable but his head is not even close to breed standard...this is not a personal hit that ollies not cute, hes VERY cute, but not a chi whos genes should be passed on at this point...
> 
> ...


I felt the same but was too much of a coward to say so!


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## tiny- dog- luverr (Oct 28, 2005)

^^^ Me as well. It bothers me when people breed non standard chihuashuas and I really dont want the breed to disappear. What a stupid vet grrrrrr.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

thanks ladies, ive been in a funky mood lately and where as i usually try to bite my tounge....lately ive been very much bolder than i normally would be...im just glad there are others who see it the way i do and that im not going insane...(or at least more insane than usual  )


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## maureen (May 9, 2004)

Thank you everyone for keeping this thread civil and respectful. Back in the old days on this site a cat fight would have broke out!!, LOL!


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## Tammie_B (Nov 19, 2005)

I guess maybe I don't really understand why people think that only "breed standard" should be bred. Maybe they want to keep the pups themselves. It really is up to them. I get the feeling that they are not breeding these pups to sell (the vet, anyway). I understand that the stud is much too young, but I am making the point that some people want only a "pet quality" chihuahua. I just always get the feeling that some people on here don't think that a pet quality animal is of any value.

I have two chihuahuas that come from long lines of champions. I chose them through reputable breeders because I really wanted healthy chis. All I am saying is that not everyone choses a chihuahua to "show". If somebody decides to breed their chihuahua for other reasons, I just find it strange how alot of people here will tell them it is wrong. If anything, this chihuahua at least will have a vet taking care of it while she is pregnant. 

I hope that all goes well with the delivery and health of the puppies.


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## *Tiff* (Aug 7, 2007)

the reason why i think only breed standard chis should be bred is bc if they werent then chis wouldnt keep that chi look with the apple head and all. they would look like a totally different breed over time if people keep breeding out of standard chis. i have a chi who isnt breed standard and i love him just as much as the other, but i wouldnt breed him bc hes not standard.


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## Tammie_B (Nov 19, 2005)

*Tiff* said:


> the reason why i think only breed standard chis should be bred is bc if they werent then chis wouldnt keep that chi look with the apple head and all. they would look like a totally different breed over time if people keep breeding out of standard chis. i have a chi who isnt breed standard and i love him just as much as the other, but i wouldnt breed him bc hes not standard.



I understand that totally, but the point I am trying to make is that I see many chis on this board that are not "breed standard". They are loved just the same. Isn't that what a lot of these breeders are doing while they are trying to invent the new standard of "teacups". The smaller the chi the better? I think it is insane that chis are being bred that tiny. 

I am just saying that maybe the vet wanted to breed this chihuahua to keep the pups for themselves. To each their own I guess... I am just saying thank goodness this chi that was bred has it's own personal vet to make sure everything goes well.


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## *Tiff* (Aug 7, 2007)

Tammie_B said:


> I understand that totally, but the point I am trying to make is that I see many chis on this board that are not "breed standard". They are loved just the same. Isn't that what a lot of these breeders are doing while they are trying to invent the new standard of "teacups". The smaller the chi the better? I think it is insane that chis are being bred that tiny.
> 
> I am just saying that maybe the vet wanted to breed this chihuahua to keep the pups for themselves. To each their own I guess... I am just saying thank goodness this chi that was bred has it's own personal vet to make sure everything goes well.



yeah i agree about the "teacup" thing too i really hate that... 

im glad that its a vet whos taking care of the mom chi as well i just think its sad the vet didnt know any better to breed a young dog.


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## Tammie_B (Nov 19, 2005)

Yes, I am with you there. But I must say, I have heard some vets say that it is okay to breed a male at 6 months. I do NOT agree. I have always thought they should be at least 1.5 to 2 years old. I was a bit amazed when I saw that the stud was only 7 months old.... I am, however, glad that the dam will be watched over by a vet.


Tammie


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## ~*Jessie*~ (Aug 8, 2007)

The problem is that millions of dogs are put to sleep every year, so there is no shortage of pet quality dogs. Chihuahuas are such a popular breed, and there are a ton of them in rescues and shelters. My fiancee's sister adopted a chihuahua a month ago that was about to be euthanized. Ironically, the chi's name was Tink and was probably given up because she grew too large (10lbs) 

I agree with Foxy and Tiff that if we do not breed to the standard, we will lose the look of the chihuahua over time. 

I am also really happy that the female is at least in the care of a vet. I just wish that the vet was more knowledgable about breeding.


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## *Tiff* (Aug 7, 2007)

Tammie_B said:


> I am, however, glad that the dam will be watched over by a vet.
> 
> 
> Tammie


me too


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## ~*Jessie*~ (Aug 8, 2007)

*Tiff* said:


> me too


Me three, lol


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## Tammie_B (Nov 19, 2005)

~*Jessie*~ said:


> Me three, lol


Jessie, I think I remember you from a while back. Is Rylie the tiny little bugger that was just under 3 lbs when you got her spayed? It sure looks like her. She is one pretty girl!


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## ~*Jessie*~ (Aug 8, 2007)

Tammie_B said:


> Jessie, I think I remember you from a while back. Is Rylie the tiny little bugger that was just under 3 lbs when you got her spayed? It sure looks like her. She is one pretty girl!


That's her! She weighs just under 4lbs now full grown  Thanks for the compliments 

I think she shares the same birthday as your Jake (or it's really close) if I can recall!

You should post some updated pics of your chis! They are both adorable


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## Tammie_B (Nov 19, 2005)

Thanks, I will. Jakes birthday is Sept. 9th and Lucy's is Sept. 30. I can't believe they are going to be two years old! Gosh time flies! Glad to see you here! I will post some updated pics on the photo thread.

Tammie


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## ~*Jessie*~ (Aug 8, 2007)

Rylie's birthday is September 5th, so they are really close in age! I can't believe that she'll be 2 either... they grow up so fast!

I can't wait to see your pics It's nice to see you here as well!


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## babydoll (May 18, 2006)

Just because they are vets doesnt mean they have any clue about breeding. A vet i took Jayde to once said she would be wonderful to breed, both temperament and appearance wise, she is 3 pounds!!!!


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## the pink fairy (Jan 1, 2007)

I agree with Foxy that people should take alot more care when it comes to breeding.

I don't wish to breed my chi when she arrives.

But I do see your point Foxy. 

xx


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## CM Katie (Sep 28, 2005)

~*Jessie*~ said:


> Rylie's birthday is September 5th, so they are really close in age! I can't believe that she'll be 2 either... they grow up so fast!


Carl will be 2 TOMORROW :crybaby:


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## Kat & Jinxy (Jul 7, 2006)

Congrats! I hope everything goes smoothly!
I can't wait to see the pups!


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## LandOliver (Mar 25, 2007)

Thanks you guys...I will. Mom is a smooth coat chocolate brown with gold markings...she's very cute too. We're exited to have a new baby in the house and I'm pretty sure it's already been decided by my husband that we'll keep him/her. Awwwww....a new baby!!! We're exited...


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## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

Oh goodie you're keeping 1 I can't wait to see the pics


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## BonnieChi (Aug 12, 2005)

please don't let all this negative talk get you down, what's done is done and you've made it clear that you don't plan on breeding him again. I hope you're still as excited as ever about your new puppy. 

The fact is that as much as anyone complains about it, as long as people are willing to buy dogs that are "pet quality" and come from parents who are not breed standard, people will continue to breed them. If people can make money off it, then they will do it. It doesn't sound like either dog is in danger and they will probably make lovely little puppies who will never see a show ring. who cares?

My little Oscar is nowhere near breed standard, but I've often thought that with his sweet temperament he would have made some sweet little puppies. Please don't get upset by that because Oscar is neutered and I have never had any intention of breeding him. I've also never had any intention of showing him or any other dog, so I would much have my sweet little Oscar who is nowhere near standard, and would have picked him over any show dog.

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone. We all have differing opinions.


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## Sinead-Rocky (Jul 9, 2006)

Awwwwwww Oscar looks a real cutie - love his little face in your siggy pic


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## vviccles1 (Feb 13, 2007)

Thiis is for Foxy: Congrats on your new addition Ruby! What is she? Is she a chinese crested? she is cute.


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## tiny- dog- luverr (Oct 28, 2005)

BonnieChi said:


> please don't let all this negative talk get you down, what's done is done and you've made it clear that you don't plan on breeding him again. I hope you're still as excited as ever about your new puppy.
> 
> The fact is that as much as anyone complains about it, as long as people are willing to buy dogs that are "pet quality" and come from parents who are not breed standard, people will continue to breed them. If people can make money off it, then they will do it. It doesn't sound like either dog is in danger and they will probably make lovely little puppies who will never see a show ring. who cares?
> 
> ...


Huny no offence but I dont think you get it. lol. People are not being negative or expressing a differing opinion,people like foxy are expressing fact!!!!. The breed standard would indeed be in danger if everyone was looking for deer heads.lol.


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## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

tiny- dog- luverr said:


> Huny no offence but I dont think you get it. lol. People are not being negative or expressing a differing opinion,people like foxy are expressing fact!!!!. The breed standard would indeed be in danger if everyone was looking for deer heads.lol.


BonnieChi doesn't see it that way and she is entitled to her opinion as we all are


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## tiny- dog- luverr (Oct 28, 2005)

Aww im sorry then , must have misunderstood what she said.


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