# Valgus deformity



## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

*Valgus deformity *not good news *

Anyone ever heard of it? 

I posted a while back about having to rush Tango to the vet because of issues with one of his front legs. Over time, that resolved with medication. But in the last week I've noticed an acute anomaly with both his front legs which google tells me is Valgus deformity....an issue with the valgus carpal (essentially the wrist joint...that first joint above the paw.) 

Tango appears to be in no pain whatever, and his mobility is hardly compromised. But look at his poor legs! 







That joint in both front legs seems to be completely collapsed. It's worse in his left leg (the one to your right in the picture) but both are affected....maybe as a compensation? 

It came on really quickly. Tango's front feet have always toed out, and my vet took note of that very early on, but his legs were strong and it wasn't progressing in any manner at all, so we just didn't worry about it. Plus it's a deformity that typically happens only with puppies and even then more so with the larger breeds. So I have no clue. 

I have an appointment with my Vet this afternoon. I'm really worried.


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## Dorothy's Mom (Apr 8, 2015)

That does look terrible. Poor thing. Let us know what the vet says. I think you have reason to be concerned. 

I'm thinking of you. It must be hard.


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## susan davis (Mar 25, 2011)

Maybe the vet can cast his legs? Since he is a puppy, maybe support would be the answer.?


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

He's not a puppy. He's 8 years old.


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## jan896 (Dec 9, 2009)

*hugs*.... poor lil' Tango... he doesnt seem to be bothered... these lil guys adjust so well...hope the Vet has good news...


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## Moonfall (Nov 16, 2012)

Oh my..I have seen it before, but never heard of it coming on like that. 

Poor kid. Really interested in hearing what the vet says.


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## Dorothy's Mom (Apr 8, 2015)

Moonfall said:


> Oh my..I have seen it before, but never heard of it coming on like that.
> 
> Poor kid. Really interested in hearing what the vet says.


Yeah, I also thought that was more of a development thing - you know, that happened before they were fully grown. I've not known that sort of thing to happen to older dogs.

I am also curious to see what the vet says.


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## LittleBeverly2015 (Jan 26, 2015)

Poor baby! I'm glad it doesn't seem to cause him pain but it does look uncomfortable. Let us know what the Vet says!


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

Well, the news isn't very encouraging.  Given his age, the sudden onset, and the manner and directions in which the joints have collapsed, (both down, and inwards) it doesn't appear to be a simple (and I use that term advisedly) orthopedic issue. My vet is concerned that he has some systemic problem (he mentioned Lupus as one example) that is causing the connective tissue to break down. There also is some slight indication that his back legs might be compromised as well, and will progress in the same manner as the front ones have. He will be consulting with two separate veterinary colleagues today who specialize in orthopedics, and internal systemic type canine diseases and issues.

The good news however is that Tango so far is in no pain, and his mobility, though slightly compromised, isn't particularly limited. He has some minor balance issues because his little front feet sit so closely together now, but nothing debilitating. He's otherwise healthy and as goofy as ever, just a little slower. 

I'll update as soon as I have more news. Meanwhile thank you all for you kind thoughts, and please continue to send as much positivity his way as you can spare. All indications are that he's going to need every bit of it.


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## Dorothy's Mom (Apr 8, 2015)

Go get him adjusted. I'm completely serious, here. Call around and find a chiropractor that will adjust him - probably a few times over the next week or two. My hubby has adjusted many, many, many dogs who had 'orthopedic issues' and, worse, that have been diagnosed by vets. He adjusts them and within a few days they are often up and running. 

I know that sometimes I sounds like a chiropractic advertisement but I know it works. I have seen far too many people and pets written off or overly diagnosed with some disorder only to get better by getting adjusted. Your nervous system controls everything - literally EVERYTHING - and it runs right down the middle of your spine. If your spine is misaligned (subluxated) then you will have problems. It's pretty straightforward.

Get him adjusted. You have NOTHING to lose.


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

Dorothy's Mom, thanks for the advice.

Unfortunately it's NOT a structural issue. Not even close. His bones are fine and aren't the problem. It's the tissue that hold the bones in place...the ligaments, tendons, musculature etc.


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## Dorothy's Mom (Apr 8, 2015)

Tink said:


> Dorothy's Mom, thanks for the advice.
> 
> Unfortunately it's NOT an orthopedic issue. Not even close. His bones are fine and aren't the problem. It's the tissue that hold the bones in place...the ligaments, tendons, musculature etc.


Chiropractors are NOT bone doctors - they are nerve doctors. Like I said, everything is controlled by your nervous system. And your nervous system starts in the brain and runs down the middle of your spine. If your spine is misaligned then your nervous system IS impaired. It is impossible not to be impaired. 

Most people do not understand chiropractic. It is a very misunderstood scientific profession.

Point is, do you really have anything to lose at this point? Because, the reality is, that the vet is gonna put him on a bunch of drugs that are gonna affect far more than JUST his legs (because drugs affect your entire system) and in the end, he will not get better from the drugs and his lifespan will be shortened.

I only want the best for him. It must be hard to see him like that. 

Just explore options outside of just what the vet says.


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

Gibbs feet situation is probably different as this did not happen over time but he was born this way. We assume backyard breeder or even a puppy mill as while we have his papers he was an owner relinquish at 5 months old into our rescue. His feet since I took him in has always been this way. So far even at age 12 he has not had an issue but we do assume as he ages we might see an issue. We do give him this (rotate between the two):
Wholistic Run Free™ with Green Lipped Mussel - Joint Support - Canine
Wholistic Canine Complete Joint Mobility™ - Joint Support - Canine

See how his front feet are turned?


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

I'm very familiar with the chiropractic field. 

I've used chiropractors all my life to solve all manner of my own issues. And I fully understand that a chiro isn't a bone doctor....orthopedic professionals are the bone doctors.  

I haven't ruled out chiropractic as an option (I haven't ruled out ANYTHING yet) but I'm not heading in that direction right off the bat. All indications are that this is a soft tissue/connective tissue problem, not a nerve problem or a bone problem, and possibly the result of some auto-immune issue. 

That's the direction I'm heading in first.


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks Huly! Yeah, Tango's feet have always toed out slightly, but it's never affected his tarsals till now. 

Both dogs have been on very high quality joint supplements ever since I've had them. And Omegas. And the best food money can buy. I am considering upping their joint supplements somewhat, though my Vet (who is a proponent of supplements for dogs) isn't sure what I can give Tango that I'm not already giving both of them. 

I'll definitely study those links though. If the products you've linked are better nutritionally than what I'm giving, I'll switch in a heartbeat! Thanks so much!


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

Tink said:


> Thanks Huly! Yeah, Tango's feet have always toed out slightly, but it's never affected his tarsals till now.
> 
> Both dogs have been on very high quality joint supplements ever since I've had them. And Omegas. And the best food money can buy. I am considering upping their joint supplements somewhat, though my Vet (who is a proponent of supplements for dogs) isn't sure what I can give Tango that I'm not already giving both of them.
> 
> I'll definitely study those links though. If the products you've linked are better nutritionally than what I'm giving, I'll switch in a heartbeat! Thanks so much!


Remember I do all holistic so both products are holistic. 

Gibbs never seems painful, he plays, he runs etc but as you can see his front feet are awful. We fear arthritis as he ages but so far nothing. Another thing to look at if you go holistic is acupuncture?


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## Dorothy's Mom (Apr 8, 2015)

Yeah, I see that Huly's suggestions are glucosamine based. That stuff is great for joint health. A lot of arthritic people take glucosamine supplements.


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## Darkly_Innocent (Jun 9, 2010)

I will be keeping little Tango and you in my thoughts and prayers. Hopefully, there will be something out there that can help solve the issue.


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## susan davis (Mar 25, 2011)

I wonder if there are 'braces' for dogs?


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

susan davis said:


> I wonder if there are 'braces' for dogs?


There actually are, Susan!  

My Vet and I also talked about splinting the legs temporarily, to help re-align them structurally.

Unfortunately a brace, splint or other such device isn't going to help, for several reasons. One, because he doesn't think the problem IS structural or orthopedic in nature. If some auto-immune issue is causing the connective tissue to break down, then the support wouldn't actually solve the problem, which is currently the focus. 

At this time, I'm minimally interested in addressing the symptoms, other than palliatively while we get to the cause. I want to know WHY this is happening to Tango, so we can solve THAT. 

And two, even if it did help, creating that kind of artificial support would create other problems. As with any time a broken limb is splinted or cast, the underlying muscles atrophy because they're not being exercised like they're supposed to be, which would just add to the actual problem and create even more debilitation.

I appreciate SO much the support and suggestions. I don't mean to sound rude, like I'm just putting y'al down for your various suggestions. Please understand that I'm dealing with the fact that I have a limited amount of funds to address this. I'm a semi-retiree and don't have much. So I'm trying to make the most I can of the funds I DO have available, and focus on the most direct path to a diagnosis and treatment. I don't mean less costly necessarily, but I do mean most direct. I want to put my available funds where they have the BEST chance of doing the most good. 

If I had more, I'd be trying and doing EVERYTHING because this is my FAMILY we're talking about, and I know I don't have to explain that concept to you all.


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

Would building the immune system help? I know some great immune support (all holistic) also what about building muscle by doing water rehab?


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

This is one I keep in my house as my cat gets it daily. 

http://www.amazon.com/Organic-Super...1435319014&sr=1-1&keywords=dog+super+immunity


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## susan davis (Mar 25, 2011)

Ronnie, I know exactly how you feel. I am in the same state, money wise. I buy the really expensive stuff for my furkids. I put off grooming for now, and just trimmed the feet so that the snow bunny feet looked better. I can wash them too. It is really upsetting when I know that my bills will take up 90% of my SS check. Oh well, my house is paid for and I am getting a nice income from the reverse morgage. Is there a blood test for lupus? Is that one of the illnesses the vet mentioned? Don't feel as if you are being rude, or ignoring our suggestions--I don't feel that in your posts!


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## Moonfall (Nov 16, 2012)

So I'm going to just throw some ideas out there-

Vet wrap the legs to support them during the day, off at night
Water therapy (can do in your bathtub)


I hope he gets better. So scary- Doug's slightly toed out too.


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## chiwaamummy<3 (May 23, 2015)

😟 poor little guy I hope that the vet can find the answers for you, then you can address the problem better and begin a recovery plan holistic/vet also. Your vet sounds like a good vet though and your doing the right thing. Life can deal us some really unfair cards sometimes I don't think this is ever right.


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## zellko (Jul 3, 2013)

No advice to give. Just prayers and hugs.


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

Huly said:


> Would building the immune system help? I know some great immune support (all holistic) also what about building muscle by doing water rehab?


Christie, if you want to link me to immune support you're referring to, that'd be awesome! I can see no downside to boosting his immune system.

I'm also checking out those other joint support products you linked. I've always given them both a joint support supplement along with their omegas, so I'm just trying to determine whether to continue with what I have already, or switch. 

You, and one other person I think, mentioned water therapy. My vet suggested that also and gave me detailed instructions regarding how best to work that with Tango. He also gave me some physical therapy exercises to do with him to help strengthen the muscles and ligaments in his legs, which Tango doesn't like much, but puts up with because he doesn't have much choice in the matter!  

I had hoped to hear from my Vet by now. His assistant called me and said he hasn't yet been able to each one of the two people he wanted to talk to, and is still doing his own research, and to please continue with the therapy he's given me until he has something more definitive for me. 

Meanwhile Tango appears to have no idea there's a problem, he continues to be a goofy, happy little dude. <3 It constantly amazes me how adaptable dogs are!


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## susan davis (Mar 25, 2011)

I did water/swimming therapy with Emmie my 7 year old who had had a cruiate ligament repair. She HATED IT, but did a wonderful job. Guy said she was a 'natural swimmer'. I had to leave the pool area 'cause she kept looking for me!


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## Kismet (Jun 18, 2014)

I have nothing useful to add but wanted you to know that I am keeping you and Tango in my thoughts and prayers. May you find a cause and solution quickly and easily. x


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

Here is the immunity support. It is a powder that I put in a seasoning container to make it easy to sprinkle on Huly's food. 

http://www.amazon.com/Organic-Super...1435319014&sr=1-1&keywords=dog+super+immunity

Water therapy is pretty simple with a chi. Just fill your bath tub. I have seen some put a life vest to help stabilize them in the water while they swim. Now I have also seen some chis just float instead of swim with the vest on. LOL It is no pressure on joints and helps build muscle. After knee surgery for myself I was in swimming and riding a bike for therapy after basic PT.


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

So the discouraging news continues unfortunately  I saw one specialist who confirmed that this is not something that would be corrected with surgery. I didn't honestly think it was, but even if it had been, I would have to give that a LOT of thought before I'd go ahead with it. 

Anyway, I have another appointment tomorrow, with a different vet who specializes in internal/systemic disease and whose clinic additionally practices both eastern and western veterinary medicine, meaning that they also provide non-traditional care such as chiropractic, acupuncture, holistic remedies etc. Dorothy's Mom, and Huly, I figured you'd be pleased to hear that!!  

There's only so much I can afford, even as much as I love my dogs. As a semi-retiree, and after the life upheaval I've dealt with recently, I'm not in great financial shape. So I'll see what they have to say, and discuss courses of treatment, and at that point determine what the next step will be.

Meanwhile Tango continues to be his usual, goofy, lovable self. I'm so grateful for that!


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

Also, Huly, thanks so much for the links to the holistic products. As soon as I determine how much I'm going to have to spend for this new consult, I'll re-figure my budget so I can plan to purchase the products you linked. They look really good, and I want to get them. Just have to figure out the finances!


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## Kismet (Jun 18, 2014)

I'm so sorry that you and a Tango are having to go through this but what a blessing that he is his usual, goofy and loveable self. I hope the specialist can come up with a plan within your means that will help him. Wishing you both a miracle. x


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

Well. THAT was an interesting visit!

Here's a link to the place if anyone's interested: 

Animalia Wellness | Veterinary Hospital

I have a friend who works there, so I got VIP service which was nice.  My Vet supplied me with copies of all Tango's records, plus a CD of the X-rays so I didn't have to pay for a new set. The new Doc was awesome and spent a lot of time going over Tango's symptoms with me, his history (as much as I know of it because he's a rescue) and also made a couple phone calls to consult with other vets with varying specialties. She drew blood for an extensive blood panel, which results I'll get hopefully today. 

But so far the news isn't good.  All indications are that it's some kind of systemic, immune system issue....the canine form of Cushings, Diabetes or Lupus. Possibly a rheumatoid arthritis type condition. 

It's not likely reversible.  The best that can be done is symptom management, and increased nutritional support to strengthen his system in the hopes that it won't progress to his back legs too. 

Huly, she really liked what you'd linked me to. They even sell some of the same products in the clinic! 

So, now I'm waiting for the results of the blood work to either confirm one of the illnesses above, or rule them all out in favor of something else. 

Other than that, the doc was very pleased with Tango's overall health, happy to see he wasn't overweight as she could easily feel his ribs and spine under a thin layer of tissue (he weighed in at a whopping 3.5 pounds!) and said his skin, coat, eyes etc., were all indicators that he was well supported nutritionally and that it was an excellent foundation on which to build an even stronger nutritional base. 

I'll let y'all know when I get the results of the blood work back.


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## Kismet (Jun 18, 2014)

It sounds like you've found a wonderful Vet.  here's hoping for good blood results and management of whatever you find.


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

Tink said:


> Well. THAT was an interesting visit!
> 
> Here's a link to the place if anyone's interested:
> 
> ...


Glad I could help! I have to say when my holistic vet or cohorts suggests something (raw honey on Sadie's foot to heal a mass between her toes) I look at them like they are crazy at times but so far everything has worked. 

Let us know how it goes!


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

Well, this sucks 

All indications are that this is Cushing's disease. There is no specific blood test for that, so we can't know for certain. His blood work came back mostly normal except for his white cell count and one other thing which I can't remember.

If it's Cushing's, there's a treatment that MAY work to keep it under control and prevent the same thing happening to his back legs. And it may do nothing. Or, because it shuts down his adrenal function, it may create another condition entirely...Addison's disease, a much more lethal condition. The adrenals can actually become necrotic and simply rot away.  

The drug treatment for Cushing's plus the continual monitoring they have to do so that they can do their best to prevent his adrenals from shutting down completely is very expensive...several thousand dollars a year. 

Tango is on a variety of supplements right now, in the hopes that nutritional support will at least prevent further connective tissue damage. 

I'm completely on the fence about whether or not to continue with treatment for what he MAY have  Even apart from the financial consideration (and honestly I don't know how I can manage my budget to make that money happen) the treatment is not without risk, and definitely has the potential of shortening his life considerably, and not just shortening it, but affecting the quality of it as well. Or it may help..there's no way to know.

Doing nothing except continuing with the supplements may also help. 

I don't know what to do. 

I am heading out of town for a few days to visit my family and grandkids in California. One of my closest friends, who also used to be a roommate and who's lived with my dogs back then, is going to be looking after Tango and Jazz while I'm gone. I'm giving myself that time to reflect on what I'm going to do. 

If anyone has any input, ideas, suggestions, or wisdom to share, I'd be very grateful.


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

Ugh that sucks! Here are a few articles on the holistic approach for you to think about. 

https://pathwithpaws.com/blog/2011/06/25/managing-cushings-disease-in-dogs-holistically/

Canine Cushing's can be Treated Naturally - NaturalNews.com

Tissue Salts For Senior Dogs - Dogs Naturally Magazine

Natural Solutions For Cushing's Disease - Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## Moonfall (Nov 16, 2012)

Only you can make that choice. I hope you can come to terms with whatever decision you must make and Tango gets better.


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## Darkly_Innocent (Jun 9, 2010)

Oh no, how heartbreaking! I will continue to keep y'all in my thoughts and prayers!


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