# Feeling very down about my boys



## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

Not having a good time. Up until the last month or so my boys have generally got on and have been my joy. (Rolo, 2 years and Buttons 17 months, both not nuetered).
They have now decided they cant be in the same room. Its really getting me down, they fight over everything and mark everything. This has always been a problem with Buttons, now Rolo has started. They fight over food, laps, everything. Rolo keeps trying constantly to hump Buttons. For the last 2 nights Ive had to split them up and put them in separate cages which is a pain as I dont have room. All night they were growling and snapping until I separated them, then they cry to be back together. This morning when I let them out they were straight in one cage together cuddling, five minutes later fighting again. 
I feel proper stupid because Ive bought 2 boys. Doesnt help that everyone keeps saying "told you not to get another one" or "you shouldnt have got Buttons, Rolo was fine without him".
Everyone here knows I am against neutering them but now I think its come to the stage where I have no choice. I cant afford it at the moment but will have to do it as soon as I can. Do you guys think it will help? I know it may not with the marking as its now a habit, one vet told me nuetering would stop it, the other said no. Will it help the aggressive behaviour? Im worried theyve now learnt to be like that and it wont change. I cant carry on with them fighting constantly for much longer. 
Wicked Pixie, if youre out there help! 
Thanks guys. I sat and cried this morning, I want my old cuddly babies back 

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## Angel1210 (Mar 14, 2011)

Sorry to hear they are not getting along! Don't really have much advice. It's probably something like the terrible twos! Hopefully they will work it out.


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## Evelyn (Oct 14, 2012)

My girl Holly and my newest boy, Frankie, fight all the time, Him and Ike get along well. I have a sister in law that got her dog neutered at 2 years old and he did stop the marking, but I think that is the dog, because I once had a Jack Russell that marked and he was neutered as a puppy.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I am sorry you are having a hard time Ruth 
Don't feel guilty for getting two boys, lots of people have male pairs that get along and the worst fights I have seen have been between pairs of bitches.
I think the best thing you could do right now is get a good behaviourist to come and assess your boys. (I can probably help find the names of some good ones in your area)
They should be able to figure out what is prompting the fighting and help you find ways to manage both dogs. Neutering may well be helpful, they should be able to say which dog it would be best to neuter, or if it will be better to do both.
Once you know exactly why they are fighting it will be much easier to see the way forwards, so don't despair.
For now I would take them on more walks together. It will be a good bonding exercise and tired happy dogs are less likely to look for trouble than bouncy bored ones. Also work on their general obedience and manners. Make sure you praise the behaviours that you do want, so when they are being nice to each other they get praise from you.
Keep a note of when the aggression occurs so you can work out what triggers it, then avoid those triggers. You may have to feed them separately, only give chews in different rooms etc, but do whatever you can to prevent another fight.


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## zellko (Jul 3, 2013)

Nature does not allow for 2 males (unneutered) to live peacefully on the same turf. Did you get them neutered?


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

I know you are against neutering, but by now they have gotten the benefit of their testosterone and their growth plates are closed. So I would neuter them both. Not sure you will be able to stop the marking, but with diligence - perhaps you can. I would put them both in belly bands so they don't ruin your house.

There are some people who have intact male dogs in their pack and they do fine. Others not so much. Depends on the dogs involved and the dynamic of your family. 

A behaviorist might be helpful. But they can be expensive. I would suggest saving up and then neutering them both.


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

Sorry to hear you're having trouble Ruth,must be heartbreaking for you.Hope you get it sorted and harmony rules your house again.Don't despair .


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## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks guys. I would love to get a behaviourist in but to be honest at the moment we can't afford it. Still dealing with the aftermath of paying £720 for Buttons' operation. I think I will have to have them both neutered when I have the money or I think one will still see themselves as the dominant one. It used to be Buttons, Rolo would give in to him but lately he seems to have decided he's not having it and at the moment he's the worst of the two. Everybody's against me. Their answer to the problem is "get rid of Buttons". How can I do that? I love him. The marking is driving me insane. Within ten minutes of being let out this morning (both went outside and had a wee) they'd marked the door frame to the bathroom twice, both doors to the 2 crates, the leg of the bird cage and the grandkids highchair leg. Im following them all day and I'm getting constantly moaned at, told it's disgusting but I don't know how to stop them. I had yesterday "that's so disgusting, how can you have two dogs p***ing all over the house, I'd get rid of them" and that was from my grown up daughter. No one is on my side.


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## I<3Charlie-chi (Feb 25, 2011)

Sorry to hear you're having problems. I feel you're pain I'm in a similar situation with my two. I try to manage the situation by seperate feeding, they don't have treats in the same room and I can usually tell when bailey is going to attack Charlie and I quickly seperate them. Sometimes I don't get there in time and bailey will get Charlie, it's very frustrating and upsetting to see Charlie get attacked  I have trouble walking my two together because if bailey sees another dog he will bark and try to get to it in an aggressive manor, when I don't let him get to other dog he turns and attacks Charlie. 
I had bailey neutered after the fighting started between my two and it's made no difference, bailey was around 18months old when I got him and I had him neutered a few months later. 
Good luck in sorting your two out, it's no fun having dogs that fight! Xx


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## KrystalLeigh (Aug 17, 2011)

Just wanted to say that you have lots of support here! I know how it can be dealing with criticism for keeping an animal who pees in the house. Our cat has had longtime issues and we have refused to give up on him so far, where others would probably have euthanized him. In fact, a family friend just put her cat down because it started to pee outside the litter box because it was upset about renovations being done in the house. Crazy! 

Hold in there! I think that neutering is a really good step. 


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## SarahJG (May 25, 2013)

Oh, Ruth, I'm sorry to hear you're having such a hard time. I'm afraid I simply don't have the expertise to offer any advice - my two boys get on fantastically, but are both neutered - but I hope you get things sorted out. They're still your boys, and I'm sure there's a solution out there. All I can offer is my moral support and positive thoughts. Stay positive. xx


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## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

Your Bailey sounds like Buttons, I will separate them, get Rolo off of him and he will turn round and attack me. So help me god if one more person says "well its your fault, you should never have got Buttons" im going to scream. My busbands just said it again. I dont remember anyone telling me it was a bad idea at the time, they all went along with it

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## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

SarahJG said:


> Oh, Ruth, I'm sorry to hear you're having such a hard time. I'm afraid I simply don't have the expertise to offer any advice - my two boys get on fantastically, but are both neutered - but I hope you get things sorted out. They're still your boys, and I'm sure there's a solution out there. All I can offer is my moral support and positive thoughts. Stay positive. xx


At what age did you get them nuetered? did they get on before that. Im worried theyve learnt the behaviour now and so it wont change

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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Rolo n Buttons said:


> Thanks guys. I would love to get a behaviourist in but to be honest at the moment we can't afford it. Still dealing with the aftermath of paying £720 for Buttons' operation. I think I will have to have them both neutered when I have the money or I think one will still see themselves as the dominant one. It used to be Buttons, Rolo would give in to him but lately he seems to have decided he's not having it and at the moment he's the worst of the two. Everybody's against me. Their answer to the problem is "get rid of Buttons". How can I do that? I love him. The marking is driving me insane. Within ten minutes of being let out this morning (both went outside and had a wee) they'd marked the door frame to the bathroom twice, both doors to the 2 crates, the leg of the bird cage and the grandkids highchair leg. Im following them all day and I'm getting constantly moaned at, told it's disgusting but I don't know how to stop them. I had yesterday "that's so disgusting, how can you have two dogs p***ing all over the house, I'd get rid of them" and that was from my grown up daughter. No one is on my side.


I would definitely invest in belly bands until you get this issue resolved. You will be worn out trying to follow them around and clean up every bit of urine. The belly bands will protect your house/furniture and it also will discourage them, as they will wet themselves when they mark. It is a great deterrent to marking.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

A behaviourist isn't actually all that expensive for a one hour consultation, usually between £30 and £50. You don't have to have follow ups, but you need to know what is causing the issues, and a behaviourist will watch how the dogs interact and also how you manage them.
Once you know the cause you can look at solutions. I would hesitate to spend £200 plus on two neuters at this point. It might not work, and it might be better to only neuter one.
You can definitely deal with the marking issues. Belly bands would be a great idea, so there are no new scents while you thoroughly remove the scent from their old marking posts. 
You are going to have to work hard to get these two boys behaving nicely, and make some permanent changes in the way that you manage them.


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## Hollowaysal (Mar 7, 2013)

I really feel for u Ruth, I know stress from dogs big time! My bulldog drives me and the hubby nuts then we argue, it just goes round in circles! My Delilah attacks the bulldog really badly at times so I've been using a water squirter at her, she hates water and it seems to break them up quickly. Could this work for you maybe instead of u getting physically involved and maybe hurt? If not water, one of those air thingies. 
Hope things get better soon for you.


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## I<3Charlie-chi (Feb 25, 2011)

Rolo n Buttons said:


> Your Bailey sounds like Buttons, I will separate them, get Rolo off of him and he will turn round and attack me. So help me god if one more person says "well its your fault, you should never have got Buttons" im going to scream. My busbands just said it again. I dont remember anyone telling me it was a bad idea at the time, they all went along with it
> 
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I've actually been bit quite badly from bailey, I picked Charlie up because bailey was attacking him and bailey jumped up to try get him and bit me just under my bum! It absolutely killed, he made me bleed through jogging bottoms and dressing gown! 
I have the constant "you need to get rid of that dog" off everyone too. The thing with bailey is he's so unpredictable and he can be just laid on the floor with Charlie nowhere near him asleep in another room and he will just start growling and just run in and get Charlie and it is for no reason what so ever. Poor Charlie will be having a nap one min then getting attacked the next. But then when it suits bailey he will happily play with Charlie running round and play fighting. 
I've actually seen a couple of trainers and was given the same advice. I was told to use a water spray or a can of spray that makes a loud hissing noise to stop the fights but neither worked. I can sometimes stop a fight before it starts by distracting with food and making bailey sit, give paw etc then he will forget he was about to start a fight! Xx


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## TinyTails (Jun 24, 2011)

For some encouragement - I took in an 8 year old chi rescue in 2012 that marked like crazy! He was not neutered and tried to pee on every inch of my house. I got a belly band, had him neutered and stayed on top of him when he wasn't wearing one. Also made sure nothing in the house had a scent of urine on it - within a month of having him I got him to stop marking. After fostering him for 3 months he was placed in his forever home and they said he tried to mark a couple times but they caught him those couple times and he has not tried since. I think they key is to always make sure you are watching them if they don't have the band on so that you can correct them as soon as they lift their leg.


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## Jayda (Jun 15, 2012)

I am so sorry to read this post. I can tell you are frustrated. I would agree that a belly band is a good temporary solution and neutering may help as well. The urine smell has to get cleaned up completely as you know. I had a blanket that was soiled (urine) that I washed over and over with a laundry boost designed for pet smells. I hadn't used it for months over Lady's bed pillow. No sooner did I put it down again, she peed on it again......she is very good in the house so it is the smell that got her. Did the behavior your seeing gradually emerge or was it like all the sudden a light switch was flipped? Did anything change in the house, did you move, did a new dog move into the neighborhood?


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## zellko (Jul 3, 2013)

It sounded like this might have started as they reached maturity. Is that correct? If it is, that's a good clue that it's nature and hormones and neutering may be the biggest part of your answer.


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## SarahJG (May 25, 2013)

Rolo n Buttons said:


> At what age did you get them nuetered? did they get on before that. Im worried theyve learnt the behaviour now and so it wont change
> 
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Frodo was neutered at 7 months; Luka was a rescue who came to me already neutered. This means that they never lived together as intact males, which is probably why they get on so well. Also, neither of them have particularly dominant personalities - in fact, I think Luka was rehomed partly because of an aggression issue in his last home. 

It's good that you have this forum on which to vent and get support. Anyone who tells you to get rid of one of your beloved dogs doesn't understand what owning a dog means. I would be the same as you in your situation, and do whatever it takes to sort it out. If you can't afford to have one or both neutered at the moment, might you be eligible for a discount somehow? It's worth looking into, surely? 

Hang on in there! xx


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## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

Now Ive split them up at night and when im out things are slightly better, dont know how long it will last. Buttons doesnt give a hoot but Rolo is very sheepish. Its as if he knows hes being naughty, he comes straight out in the morning, gets on my lap with his ears down and licks me to death. Im also spraying everywhere they mark in the kitchen area with a strong spray bleach which so far seems to be deterring them a little bit. Obviously I cant do that in the front room as it will ruin everything. Im going away till Thursday tonight for our 30th anniversary and my 2 sons are "watching" them. I hate to think what Im going to come back to

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## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

Hollowaysal said:


> I really feel for u Ruth, I know stress from dogs big time! My bulldog drives me and the hubby nuts then we argue, it just goes round in circles! My Delilah attacks the bulldog really badly at times so I've been using a water squirter at her, she hates water and it seems to break them up quickly. Could this work for you maybe instead of u getting physically involved and maybe hurt? If not water, one of those air thingies.
> Hope things get better soon for you.


Actuallt that did cross my mind. I wondered about some sort of water pistol, a flipping super soaker should do the trick

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## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

Jayda said:


> I am so sorry to read this post. I can tell you are frustrated. I would agree that a belly band is a good temporary solution and neutering may help as well. The urine smell has to get cleaned up completely as you know. I had a blanket that was soiled (urine) that I washed over and over with a laundry boost designed for pet smells. I hadn't used it for months over Lady's bed pillow. No sooner did I put it down again, she peed on it again......she is very good in the house so it is the smell that got her. Did the behavior your seeing gradually emerge or was it like all the sudden a light switch was flipped? Did anything change in the house, did you move, did a new dog move into the neighborhood?


I think its gradually emerged, Buttons has always been the more fiesty one and I think Rolo has just learnt to start standing up to him. But Rolo is also what I call "nuerotic" and sometimes just wont leave Buttons alone. Hes always in his face doing the nom nom nom grooming thing all over him or trying to hump him and Buttons loses his rag. Sometimes its Buttons that goes for Rolo, they are as bad as each other. 

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## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

Nothing has changed in the house, if anything its calmer as Im not having the grandson as much anymore and I know he did used to wind them up sometimes. 

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## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

zellko said:


> It sounded like this might have started as they reached maturity. Is that correct? If it is, that's a good clue that it's nature and hormones and neutering may be the biggest part of your answer.


Yes, it has. They got on all the time when they were younger and loved each other to bits.

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## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

Rolo n Buttons said:


> I think its gradually emerged, Buttons has always been the more fiesty one and I think Rolo has just learnt to start standing up to him. But Rolo is also what I call "nuerotic" and sometimes just wont leave Buttons alone. Hes always in his face doing the nom nom nom grooming thing all over him or trying to hump him and Buttons loses his rag. Sometimes its Buttons that goes for Rolo, they are as bad as each other.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thinking about it, a new family have moved in next door with a big dog, it barks in the garden and they both go zooming out there everytime they hear it for a good old yap. I bet its a girl. Hadnt thought of that

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## I<3Charlie-chi (Feb 25, 2011)

Aww hope you manage to enjoy you're celebrations without worrying about you're dogs and house too much! Congratulations!! wow 30years! 
I actually left my dogs for the day with my brother in law not so long ago, he came to our house to dog sit and bailey managed to get to Charlie and attacked him. Luckily Charlie wasn't hurt. I won't be taking another holiday until I've sorted the issues out with my two because I just can't risk it! Xx


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## joshall (Oct 13, 2013)

I was wondering is there any other way to prevent marking apart from using the bell band?


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## fizzy n kirbys mum (Jan 17, 2005)

Sorry to hear you are having problems - I have quite a few male chi's from 2 years old to 10 years old - all neutered - I find that taking them out lots is the answer to marking - lots of walks - even if your short of time just 5 mins up the rd and back to let them 'mark' helps so much. 

Exercise is a wonderful thing, calm tired dogs tend to get along fine - my only trouble maker is a girl who gets all 'high & mighty' after eating so I simply feed her in a different room and leave her there for a while after so she is 'nice'. 

If they argue on walks just keep them one on each side and if they kick off walk faster so they have no choice but to keep walking - I know it's not easy, I've been through it.....


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## srdefoe (Feb 23, 2013)

Hello,
We have 3 neutered boys and they get along very well. Rico was neutered at 1 yr, Scout at 3 yrs and Elmer at 12! Rico and Scout play and tumble together like puppies! We are so blessed. Elmer does mark in the house. I put a belly band(male diaper) on him when we are gone. Once in a great while if a very desirable treat is involved Rico and Scout will get in a serious spat which is mostly noise. I always take the treat away then and that takes care of it. Neutering should help(not 100%) both the aggression and marking. My point is that male dogs can get along just fine but not all male dogs get along.
Sue


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## shamrockmommy (May 11, 2012)

Yep, neuter time for both. I have an intact male poodle, and he behaves himself indoors. He lives with 3 spayed bitches, though. When we do have a visiting male (neutered or intact) he HATES them, I mean HATE! He spends a lot of time doing a down/stay because then he can't manage to behave himself and stop guarding 'his' girls. 

Good luck! The marking thing can be VERY frustrating. I had a male minpin who I kept intact until 9 months and then finally neutered because he was peeing on everything, me included! I hate to say it but it didn't stop the marking. He was one tough, pig-headed dog though. Terriers can be turds like that. 

Good luck!


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## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

shamrockmommy said:


> Yep, neuter time for both. I have an intact male poodle, and he behaves himself indoors. He lives with 3 spayed bitches, though. When we do have a visiting male (neutered or intact) he HATES them, I mean HATE! He spends a lot of time doing a down/stay because then he can't manage to behave himself and stop guarding 'his' girls.
> 
> Good luck! The marking thing can be VERY frustrating. I had a male minpin who I kept intact until 9 months and then finally neutered because he was peeing on everything, me included! I hate to say it but it didn't stop the marking. He was one tough, pig-headed dog though. Terriers can be turds like that.
> 
> Good luck!


Lol. Yeah, turds is a pretty good way to describe my two at the moment. Buttons has marked me several times as well. Lol

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## MaddiLovesDogs (Jan 16, 2014)

Hello Ruth!

So sorry to hear about your "male struggles." It's true, when the hormones are riding high, there isn't much you can do to "redirect" their behavior. Dogs are driven on instinct, very STRONG instinct, that's why we bred them.

I agree with the belly bands, as in they'll wet themselves if they try to mark in the house. That is a non invasive solution that just solves itself!

As a _slight_ dog behavioralist (oh, ever so slight), in my opinion the BEST thing you can do for your boys is find shared behaviors they can do together (sessions where they can sit, stay, laydown, ect.), and be rewarded for equally (or whoever performs the best!), that will encourage competition in a healthy way and relieve energy. Your boys need to know that at the end of the day _you're_ the one who decides things... *because you are!* Maybe more shared training sessions together will key into their competitive nature in a positive way? Perhaps walks with leash training together (STOP. SIT. WAIT. GOOD BOY!) That way, their competition is directed toward impressing you and not necessarily impressing each other?


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## MaddiLovesDogs (Jan 16, 2014)

Boys will be boys, you know.


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## zellko (Jul 3, 2013)

I love that you (who are much more dog experienced than I) like the belly bands for peeing. I was sure getting a wet belly got through to him fast, but nobody else ever mentioned that.


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## Rocky (Jan 25, 2010)

I would try to use the belly bands at least until you have them both neutered. I am usually against neutering but in your case I think it is necessary. 

It somehow sounds a bit as if your boys are fighting over you (your lap, your attention, etc.). If they start to fight over your lap I would put them both on the floor and walk outside the room, totally ignoring them. I remember a case (in a different forum) who dried this over some time as the dogs constantly fought over her and once her boyfriend was alone with them, they were fine. She just started ignoring them if they again thought it was alright to fight. Eventually they got the message and even though they never really liked each other, they at least started to live together quite peacefully. 
When they start fighting over food. I would place them appart in the kitchen and make them sit and stay until both have their bowls. Once one is done I would let him still stay on the spot until the other one has finished as well. So just that you decide when and who eats, and all the other situations as well. Not sure if this is helpful.


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## I<3Charlie-chi (Feb 25, 2011)

Please be careful about leaving them alone if they are fighting. I thought that chi's wouldn't be able to do much damage but I've had two separate vets visits after bailey managed to get Charlie and I wasn't there quick enough to separate them x


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## LadyDevlyn (Jul 8, 2013)

zellko said:


> Nature does not allow for 2 males (unneutered) to live peacefully on the same turf. Did you get them neutered?


That's actually not true. In nature, NO animals are neutered or spayed. Wolf packs are comprised of all unaltered males and females. Until recently I always had between 3 and 4 unaltered males living together in the house. Obviously some dogs can't live that way, but neutering may not solve the problems. 



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## zellko (Jul 3, 2013)

Sorry to disagree, but, in nature in most species all males but the leader are driven off. Packs/herds/flocks, etc. usually consist of one male and many females. Lethal fights are not uncommon, even in some domesticated animals. I have not only observed some of these battles, but some of my scariest life moments are having to separate large sparring animals so one would not be lost. Neutering may not solve all the problems, but on the other hand it MAY solve the most difficult. If the problems are hormonal, ONLY neutering will lead to a resolution. Unless these are show chis, what is the benefit of keeping them intact?


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Wild canids do not have only one male per pack. This is true for a lot of species, but not pack carnivores, they need both sexes in the pack. The males are generally bigger and stronger, so are necessary for hunting and defence.
Dogs are not wild animals though and do not live in a natural environment where they can express their natural behaviours.
There are actually lots of benefits to keeping a male dog intact. I will only castrate mine if it becomes necessary, I don't believe in routine neutering. It certainly can make dogs easier to manage, but it brings its own set of problems too, in both health and behaviour.


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## Lubu (Jan 31, 2014)

Can you guys provide any good resources about the benefits of not neutering a dog? My dogs have always been spayed/neutered (I actually already have an appointment for Lubu, he's going to be 6 months soon). Maybe I'm brainwashed or something, but I've never read any arguments I felt were very compelling for keeping a dog intact, but I have tons of respect for the knowledgeable people on this forum and I am really interested to learn more!


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## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

Little update. Things are still slightly calmer for splitting them into separate cages, they are still having the odd fight but not constantly. I hope to god it lasts. Marking is still happening but a little bit less. I will have to look into proper belly bands. I bought a couple of hand made ones but Buttona will either somehow manage to stick himself to something with the velcro closure or wriggle out of it. Also hes just had an op for a hernia so havnt been able to use it as it rubs his scar and stitches. 

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## AmyAnn (Feb 9, 2014)

How are the boys doing? I've been wondering.


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