# PLEASE SPAY/NEUTER!! This changed my mind...



## Jessie (Dec 4, 2005)

Some of you may know this already... but I think I tend to try to put it out of my mind and sometimes need to be reminded. I have to admit that I was thinking of not neutering Jetset so someday I could get a girl and perhaps have a couple litters of puppies (I love puppies, who doesn't), and maybe keep one out of each litter or something. Then I read this and realized I was thinking of becoming a backyard breeder and contributing to the problem.



Up to 10 million healthy animals are killed in U.S. pounds and shelters 
every year. The killing could easily be prevented by spaying and neutering. 

Euthanasia is the single largest cause of death for dogs in the U.S. Each 
year 27 million of the animals are born. Five to ten million we classify as 
"surplus" and kill. That's about one million per month. These numbers do not include the millions of dead dogs whose bodies we scrape off the streets, or the hundreds of thousands of abandoned, severely neglected or abused ones who never make it to our shelters to be counted and killed. The five to ten million figure represents those we "must" kill because they are unwanted. 

Most of these animals are young and healthy; in fact, it is estimated that a majority are less than one year of age. The problem is simple: we have too many dogs. Too many for the too few homes available. The solution we have opted for is to kill the extras. This solution has been considered 
acceptable by default, as though there were no other way to control the crisis. And we spend over $1 billion every year destroying "man's best friend." 

Why is this happening in the United States today? The number one biggest contributor to the problem is the backyard breeder not the puppy mills. 

Sunny Arruda 
VP, South Bay Purebred Rescue


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

i have decided not to spay or neuter either of my dogs for personal reasons. but i don't really plan on breeding if i do get a female chi i will have maybe 2 litters( depending on size of the litter) so my sis can have a pup. BUT i have not decided to do this if i do it will be in a year or so after my baby is full grown and i can see what i think of having a bunch of chis. i dont' think i would be able to sell them anyways lol i wouldn't be able to get rid of them. i'd be the weird chi lady  that is some good info tho thanks for sharing


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

want to knwo what the best deterent ive found...
have poeple think about it talk to experienced breeders and find out how many chi girls have DIED (along wiht thier litter) during labour...youd be amazed at how many there are, there isnt a single expereinced breeder in the world who hasnt lost at least one female during labour!

now how would you feel if your little girl died trying to give birth to a litter of puppies that may also die in the process too all because you wanted a puppy from your dog...

now if the chance of your dog dying isnt enough to sway the desicion then you shouldnt have a dog in the first place...

breeding is not something to just be done because you want the puppies...
and as ive said before, it also costs thousands of dollars per litter to breed properly...

im SOOOO glad you posted that info and decided to neuter! you couldnt have made a better desicion!


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## Yoshis Mom (Jul 5, 2004)

Those are precisely the reasons I will not breed Bella, though tempting as it is because she has a bunch of blues in her pedigree including her mother.

I could never risk losing her just to get a blue chi. Plus there are no champions in her bloodline (I only have a 3 generation pedigree for her, though) so not worth the risk.


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

like i said i am not sure what i will do i have not researched it enough. i would NEVER want a dog to die in labor that would be awful. if i do breed it will be a long long time from now and i would consult other breeders on what to do when to do it and all that fun stuff. i am still not going to spay or neuter any or my pets for other reasons. i'll just keep the females away from the males until i have had proper instruction on breeding


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## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

I just wanted to add if you dont spay a bitch she runs an extremely high chance of getting Pyometra ( I lost my cavalier to it and we almost lost our golden retriever) it's called dead dog walking for a reason it's extremley quick and within a week your dog goes from being fine to being dead so think about it, if you aren't going to better the breed spay or neuter it's best for the dog and for the animal overpopulation problem as stated above.


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## Tammie_B (Nov 19, 2005)

foxywench said:


> want to knwo what the best deterent ive found...
> have poeple think about it talk to experienced breeders and find out how many chi girls have DIED (along wiht thier litter) during labour...youd be amazed at how many there are, there isnt a single expereinced breeder in the world who hasnt lost at least one female during labour!
> 
> now how would you feel if your little girl died trying to give birth to a litter of puppies that may also die in the process too all because you wanted a puppy from your dog...
> ...


First off, I know you are very knowledgable about chihuahuas, but I really think that it is untrue that EVERY single breeder of chihuahuas has lost at least one bitch or litters. It is simply untrue. It is also untrue that it costs thousands of dollars per litter. I understand the need to promote neutering/spaying, but false information does not help. With proper veterinary care, education and responsible planning, it can be a rewarding experience. I just don't understand why people don't express that. I plan on having one litter with my chis - for myself. I have two healthy, beautiful chihuahuas and have consulted with my vet. She has given me the thumbs up that they are both healthy and suited for a litter. My female is quite a bit larger than my male and both see the vet regularly. I just think that giving people false information is irresponsible.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

first off, YES to breed correctly (cost primary vet checks, helath certs, vet checks duing, unltra sounds ect), it actually does cost close to $2500 per litter... to breed. I AM a breeder, ive been involved with breeding for my entire 21 years and learnt all i know from my grandfather a 2nd generation chihuahua breeder as well as my secondary mentor a woman whod been breeding for over 30 years, and YES anyone thats been breeding for a good amount of time "experienced breeders" (more than 10 years) will tell you they have lost a bitch during the birth! if you need a c-section expect another 700-1500 for a c-section on top.
you also have to rember YOU have to cover the cost of dewclaws removed, multiple wormings and at the VERY least one set of shots per puppy!

the risk of complications almost tripples on any female under 5lbs...even with a male MUCH smaller than her. (i would NEVER breed a emale to a male who isnt at least 2 lbs lighter than her!)

yes it is rewarding but its also alot of hard work even before the breeding can occur!

breeding your 2 pets becaus eyou want a puppy is just as bad as every other back yard breeder out there...nd what about if she has a large litter, some chis do while the average is 1-3 some chis have had much larger litters...
of course your responsiblity doens tstop after youve found homes for them either...you rehome them yes but what happens down the line, would you be willing to take back a product of your breeding, even if it has health and behavioural problems...(and by behavioural problems i mean EXTREEM anxiety, agression to people or dogs, chewing, howling barking biting..ANY behaviour...

as ive said sooo many times in the past, it is very rewarding but it is NEVER somehting to take lightly! and definatly not easy and certainly not cheap...

there isnt a single GOOD breeder on this planet who makes any kind of profit from their litter after the cost of the bitches healthcare during labour...
Sorry if that bursts any bubbles out there...but if your gonna do it right you have to know the costs and risks...
of course that being said, yes it wont cost much if your happy to go through the pregnancy without regular check ups and ultra sounds...and yes itll be cheaper if you dont have to have a c-section...and yes itll be cheper if you dont remove the dew claws and yes itll be cheaper if you dont deworm or vacinate the pups,...
but those health checks could be the first line of defense against a hard laour..those ultra sounds could be the difference between your chis life...(a retained puppy can KILL the bitch! and without an ultra sound youll not know how many puppies are in there) ect...theres many ways to cut the cost and not spend over $2000 per litter...but then you have to wonder...have you missed something...

and the best part is, that doesnt include any of the stud fees (yes for those of you who are ust gonna mate your 2 pets thats not a problem...) nor does it include the cost of confirmation and attending shows...ahh but your just breeding pet puppies what does it matter if there to correct standard?


belive me...YES im being harsh...
BUT NOT A SINGLE WORD IVE TYPES IS A LIE OR AN OVER EXAGERATION FOR ANYONE BREEDING CORRECTLY!.

i NEVER give any information i KNOW is incorrect...from someone who is VERY eperienced in this feild...heck with what 21 + 80 + 30 years of expereinced knowledge plus countless discussions wiht other breeders, showers, judges enthusiasts, belive me, this is not a topic im new too and certainly not one i take lightly! ive seen way too many chihuhaus end up put to sleep or in shelters as a direct result of back yard breeding!
and ive personally seen *yes in a clinic with my own 2 eyes* ) 4 chihuhaua bitches (luckily none that i knew personally) die during a difficult labour...i only worked in that clinc for a year...1 of those bitches was a large 8 lb female bred to a 4lb male, another a 4lb female to a 3 lb male another a 5lb female to a 4lb male and the last a 5lb female to a 2.5 lb male...
one died as the direct result of a retained puppy, another died of blood loss, another had a heart murmer that while was slight enough to not be noticed during health checks was enough to just kill her, and the final died under anesthesia during a c-section for a single puppy!
4 dogs in 1 year...thats alot fo dogs...2 of them were dogs owned by expereinced breeders, 1 was an acidental litter, and one was quite simply someone who like many people thought, oh im going to breed my dogs just once so i can have a puppy to keep...she came back 4 months later to tell me she hadnt stoped crying at night since and her male died only 2 weeks after of what there assuming is a broken heart (necropsy showed no sighns of illness and no other reaosn for the dog to die) he just simply stopped eating stopped drinking and one day they found him curled up in her basket, cold...

i am NOT a spay/neuter "advocate"
i do however belive that if your going to leave your dog intact or breed your dog, you should at least have a good idea as to whats involved...

i suggest ANYONE interested in breeding find an experienced (10+ yrs) breeder and aprentice under them for at least 3 years!


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

well that was a mouth full lol. it made me think tho. i probably wont' breed i would NEVER EVER want a dog to die under my care cause i wanted to save a few hundred bucks ( from teh sounds of it i will be loosing money). that is why i said i would talk to another breeder first to see what is involved. thank you for this information i am taking it to heart! i still am not paying or neutering but there is NO way my dogs i have now can mate unless i hold kujo up on boots and let him go. and those would be some seriously funny looking pups LOL thanks for the info really opened my eyes


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## Tammie_B (Nov 19, 2005)

foxywench said:


> first off, YES to breed correctly (cost primary vet checks, helath certs, vet checks duing, unltra sounds ect), it actually does cost close to $2500 per litter... to breed. I AM a breeder, ive been involved with breeding for my entire 21 years and learnt all i know from my grandfather a 2nd generation chihuahua breeder as well as my secondary mentor a woman whod been breeding for over 30 years, and YES anyone thats been breeding for a good amount of time "experienced breeders" (more than 10 years) will tell you they have lost a bitch during the birth! if you need a c-section expect another 700-1500 for a c-section on top.
> you also have to rember YOU have to cover the cost of dewclaws removed, multiple wormings and at the VERY least one set of shots per puppy!
> 
> the risk of complications almost tripples on any female under 5lbs...even with a male MUCH smaller than her. (i would NEVER breed a emale to a male who isnt at least 2 lbs lighter than her!)
> ...


I am breeding my chi's for me... and I am not a backyard breeder. I have bred other breeds and am experienced at it as well. You are downright being untruthful in what you say. I have a German Sheperd that had 13 pups... she was induced and had her pups in a hospital. She did fine. had ultra sounds and the best care possible. It did not cost as much as you say. She was taken to one of the best hospitals in the country - Tufts. You are 21 years old and say that you have been breeding for 21 years... I think that is a stretch. You know nothing about me so you should keep your opinions to yourself. You shouldn't try to scare people into NOT breeding. You should be educating them. Not once have I ever seen a post that was positive about breeding. It is sad.


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## Tammie_B (Nov 19, 2005)

foxywench said:


> first off, YES to breed correctly (cost primary vet checks, helath certs, vet checks duing, unltra sounds ect), it actually does cost close to $2500 per litter... to breed. I AM a breeder, ive been involved with breeding for my entire 21 years and learnt all i know from my grandfather a 2nd generation chihuahua breeder as well as my secondary mentor a woman whod been breeding for over 30 years, and YES anyone thats been breeding for a good amount of time "experienced breeders" (more than 10 years) will tell you they have lost a bitch during the birth! if you need a c-section expect another 700-1500 for a c-section on top.
> you also have to rember YOU have to cover the cost of dewclaws removed, multiple wormings and at the VERY least one set of shots per puppy!
> 
> the risk of complications almost tripples on any female under 5lbs...even with a male MUCH smaller than her. (i would NEVER breed a emale to a male who isnt at least 2 lbs lighter than her!)
> ...


I am breeding my chi's for me... and I am not a backyard breeder. I have bred other breeds and am experienced at it as well. You are downright being untruthful in what you say. I have a German Sheperd that had 13 pups... she was induced and had her pups in a hospital. She did fine. had ultra sounds and the best care possible. It did not cost as much as you say. She was taken to one of the best hospitals in the country - Tufts. You are 21 years old and say that you have been breeding for 21 years... I think that is a stretch. You know nothing about me so you should keep your opinions to yourself. You shouldn't try to scare people into NOT breeding. You should be educating them. Not once have I ever seen a post that was positive about breeding. It is sad.


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## Gypsy (Feb 13, 2006)

Well, I can see both your sides. My mom has been breeding chis since I was born so I've been around that all my life and helped with it. I'm not a breeder myself but I think I know a fair amount about it. 

In all this time she's been breeding she hasn't ever lost a mother, has lost litters but not a mother but then, she's always had health checks, breeds females from free whelping lines, doesn't breed too small of females, spays a female who has had to have more than one c-section, feeds super premium food, supplements, knows history and bloodlines of all her dogs. She has had to have a fair amount of c-sections as is very common in chihuahuas. We've had great vets and great luck. So, I can't agree that every breeder has lost at least one female in birth. 

It does cost a great deal to breed a litter, with proper health care and it's true that most of what is made off a litter just covers the costs of breeding the litter, with chis at least. With your bigger breeds like shepards, you do have more puppies. Chis often have 1-3 puppies, so if each puppy is sold for 500-900 which is the average price I'm seeing right now you barely make up your costs going in. 

I do not condone irresponsible breeding either. As I see it, if you are going to make the decision to breed your own dog, if you're willing to put forth the time and money and have your dog's health checked, can afford to pay for bringing a healthy litter into the world (Including emergency situations like c-sections) and being responsible for the babies for the rest of their lives, willing to take them back at any time, and you've researched the breed and understand what it entails I can't argue against you. 

I don't think showing makes you a good breeder though. Sure, you need to be breeding good examples of the breed but I've honestly seen some pretty poor breed examples finished as champions because they knew someone. It's very much political. When a breeder is experienced and good they can evaluate their own dogs and compare them to the standard or even have a judge evaluate them. It's wonderful to finish your dog as a champion but it's not everything. 

The reason I think you don't see positive posts about breeding is because it is something one has to go into with a great deal of knowledge and there are so many risks. There is always the risk of loosing your dog and puppies and there are soo many bad breeders and puppymills out there it's important that your doing it right if you're bringing babies into the world considering the population problem there already is. 

I try to educate rather than frighten people who want to breed. The way I see it they're more likely to listen if I explain logically rather than tell them off. If I ever come across as mean and using scare tactics I really apologize. 

I am planning on my next chi being a longhair I can show (yes, I do want to show. ) and possibly breed but I don't know if I'll end up chickening out. I've seen some of the hearbreak that comes with it and when the time comes may just spay her like Deedlit and Cosette.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

i NEVER said IVE been breeding for 21 yrs, i said ive got about 21 yrs experience with the breed as i grew up with them.
i have also worked with my grandfather and his breeding pack who taught me everything i know plue an aperentic under another expereinced breeder, and unlike the 3 yrs experience under aprentic with chis like i usually suggest for anyone interested in breeding them i worked with her for 5 years!

and as cosette and deedits mom said YES it realy DOES cost that kind of money to breed properly...im in CT so costs are indeed higher here, but even somewhere where vets costs are cheaper your looking at over $1500 at least and in a litter of puppies of say 3 and your selling for the average $500 you might be lucky to break even!

Im sorry if you dont see that, and im very sorry if i offended you...
i think anyone on this board will tell you in all my time here i DONT push people to my belifs as i already said spay/neuter is your choice, but at least have know what your doing...
no offence but german shepards ARE NOT chis, 

im leaving this subject alone, i mearly offered experience that in my opionion the best deterent to most people is the thought of the possibility (whihc is very high) that they might lose their female and/or the litter!
most that truly care about their dogs, the thought of even MABE losing their female is enough to help them realize breeding isnt as easy and clear cut as putting 2 dogs together...


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## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

Maybe it is because I live in a small town but the cost of raising Flowers puppies was around $800-$1000. That includes all the vet visits(lots of them before and after delivery) Puppy shots, food, whelping box, health certificates, AKC registration, dewormer, and lots of other stuff I know I am forgetting. Flower had 6 puppies so the vet visits cost more than usual. Around here all the vaccinations go by 0-5 puppies per litter being the cheapest and then 6-9 pups and on up. Thankfully Flower had an easy delivery and no c-section required or it could have cost a lot more. I have been breeding for the last 9 years( the first 8 with my parents) and have lost 1 puppy but no mother chi's. I think if you know what you are doing and have a vet on call and ready for emergencies it is a lot easier to breed. Someone who is inexperienced may not recognise the signs of a female in trouble when in labor. IMO just because someone shows chi's does not mean they are a good breeder. Any chi can be shown that is registered so basically someone could go to a show 1 time and say" Well I show chi's so it is ok for me to breed" which is rediculous. I have worked at an animal shelter and everyone there said they don't care if someone shows dogs or not in there opinion all breeding is wrong. I have mixed feelings on the subject because if there were not breeders out there a lot of us would not have chi's. I have seen quite a few people (not on this site but elsewhere) that have shown thier dogs and they are not the breed standard, but since they have shown there dogs that makes them think they are special.


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## Tammie_B (Nov 19, 2005)

foxywench said:


> i NEVER said IVE been breeding for 21 yrs, i said ive got about 21 yrs experience with the breed as i grew up with them.
> i have also worked with my grandfather and his breeding pack who taught me everything i know plue an aperentic under another expereinced breeder, and unlike the 3 yrs experience under aprentic with chis like i usually suggest for anyone interested in breeding them i worked with her for 5 years!
> 
> and as cosette and deedits mom said YES it realy DOES cost that kind of money to breed properly...im in CT so costs are indeed higher here, but even somewhere where vets costs are cheaper your looking at over $1500 at least and in a litter of puppies of say 3 and your selling for the average $500 you might be lucky to break even!
> ...


Well, if you go back and read your post, maybe you can see that how you sounded. I chose both of my registered chi's carefully and chose them to breed. I find that breeding them for my own personal reasons is better than selling them to God knows who. That doesn't make me a backyard breeder. It took me some time and research to choose them carefully - check bloodlines - health history, etc before I brought them home. I consulted with my vet to make sure I was choosing them carefully and responsibly. You judging people and thinking you are the one and only person that knows what they are talking about is unfair and sad. You did say that you have 21 years of experience - I still say that is wrong. I have heard such negativity on this board with breeding. I just find it sad. there are more breeders out there that say they breed to standard and it is just not true. I just wish one person would state the positive side of it. 

Also, I do know that a German Sheperd is not the same as a chi.... you don't need experience with chis to know that. I have had German Sheperds all my life and I have been around for 40 years. There are problems with all kinds of breeding. Most notably by irresponsible breeding practices, in-breeding, letting anyone buy one, and neglect. It just seems that you think it is okay for YOU to breed and nobody else.


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## lalaNlucky (Jan 10, 2006)

unfortunately people need to be made more aware of the negative aspects of breeding, for the simple fact that, we don't need anymore breeders/sick dogs/stray dogs etc.

you deciding on your own to breed your dogs for yourself to keep the pups is completely different & you have self educated yourself..
but people coming on the board wanting to know about breeding/claiming they are going to breed their dogs need to be drowned in the negative parts of it, to prevent what usually ends up happening.
nobody needs to know about the positive parts of breeding except for breeders & people who are looking to buy a dog..or somebody like yourself


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## Tammie_B (Nov 19, 2005)

lalaNlucky said:


> unfortunately people need to be made more aware of the negative aspects of breeding, for the simple fact that, we don't need anymore breeders/sick dogs/stray dogs etc.
> 
> you deciding on your own to breed your dogs for yourself to keep the pups is completely different & you have self educated yourself..
> but people coming on the board wanting to know about breeding/claiming they are going to breed their dogs need to be drowned in the negative parts of it, to prevent what usually ends up happening.
> nobody needs to know about the positive parts of breeding except for breeders & people who are looking to buy a dog..or somebody like yourself


Well, I appreciate that you don't look at me as a "backyard" breeder. I don't consider myself a "breeder" at all... but I plan to responsibly breed my pair. Thanks for not generalizing and putting me into a category of "everyone else".

Tammie


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## Tink N' Daphne (Apr 4, 2006)

I read Foxys post and I didn't read anything in her post that was incorrect. In my experience of rescuing tons of dogs I have seen mothers die, puppies die, mothers not have milk, etc. I don't believe in breeding unless you can improve the breed and to do that your dog must pass all health clearances along with be judge by a professional in a dog show. Unless your dog can do this he has no business being bred. 

If people keep breeding dogs just because fifi is cute, sooner or later it will be impossible to find a Chihuahua, Rottweiler, Yorkie, GSD, etc, that is actual standard.

Look at petfinder.com and see how many toy dogs are without homes today and will likely be put to sleep. Look up the hundreds of rescues all across the world for toy dogs. Why would you keep producing "dime a dozen" dogs when so many are dying, abused, homeless. I suggest all of you that are breeding because they want another dog like fifi , go back to fifi's breeder and direct your friends and family that want a dog like fifi to do the same.


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## Tammie_B (Nov 19, 2005)

Tink N' Daphne said:


> I read Foxys post and I didn't read anything in her post that was incorrect. In my experience of rescuing tons of dogs I have seen mothers die, puppies die, mothers not have milk, etc. I don't believe in breeding unless you can improve the breed and to do that your dog must pass all health clearances along with be judge by a professional in a dog show. Unless your dog can do this he has no business being bred.
> 
> If people keep breeding dogs just because fifi is cute, sooner or later it will be impossible to find a Chihuahua, Rottweiler, Yorkie, GSD, etc, that is actual standard.
> 
> Look at petfinder.com and see how many toy dogs are without homes today and will likely be put to sleep. Look up the hundreds of rescues all across the world for toy dogs. Why would you keep producing "dime a dozen" dogs when so many are dying, abused, homeless. I suggest all of you that are breeding because they want another dog like fifi , go back to fifi's breeder and direct your friends and family that want a dog like fifi to do the same.


This is just another idiotic statement. I am not breeding a fifi dog. I am breeding a 2 chis with more than 15 champions and champion sires on both ends. I am a bit amazed at what you are saying. I did a lot of research and consulted with my vet to make an informed decision. I am breeding my chi's for myself - These opinions (and that is all they are) are out right ridiculous.


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

tammie- good for you for consulting your vet if your vet is behind you and you are going to monitor the health of your preggo chi then i would go for it. i am a bit nervous about it ( i still have A LOT of learning to do and i probably still wont' do it) i want to wish you good luck and good luck to your chis!! may they be healthy and have a unremarkable pregnancy and beautiful babies  :wave:


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

tina&Daph, thanks but dont bother...

"These opinions (and that is all they are) are out right ridiculous."

last i checked hands on experience of myself and more than several personal accounts was more than simply an opinion, i talk from experience with chis, i speak of other chi breeders experience and i speak from things i have personally seen...no offence but thats called EXPERIENCE not OPINION
for all those who havent had this experience wlel im glad for you, theres nothing more painfull emotionally than seeing a dam or her puppies die or even jsut struggle during labour...

i truly hope your little girl is health and her puppies come out fine as does she...my opinion is your opinionated and belive no matter what anyone says that because your "breeding your chis for [you]" you would be considered by any responsible breeder a back yard breeder... THOSE are OPINIONS which of course im entitled to just as you are...

and on that note i realy AM done with this part of the topic, its gone beyond the subject of the origional topic, which was simply information on PRO spay/neuter, i offered information other than that was posted on why people shoudl spay/neuter (BEYOND the obvious health problems like mammery and ovarian cancers and testicular and bone cancer increase in intact dogs)

as i said good luck and i hope everything goes well...and that all the puppies find good loving homes.


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## Tink N' Daphne (Apr 4, 2006)

Consulted with your Vet meaning??????? Just wondering because the last dog I took to the Vet had a ill temperment but the Vet thought I should breed him because he looks really good, not to mention this particular dog is way out of standard.

I am assuming you took the dog to a reproduction specialist to get the clearances for their health and just out of curosity what are their registered names. I would like to look up their pedigrees to see which 15 champions they are related too and which Champion sired them. I'm also sure that you have had them in the Show ring, right?

If you have done all of this then by all means breed the dog but if you haven't then I suggest you stop being so selfish and start thinking about your dog and all the problems you may cause the unsuspecting new owners.


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

i'm really really sorry if i started something i didnt' mean to at all. i was just trying to look at the bright side of the situation cause it sounds like she is going to do it no matter what. we should support her as much as we can incase she has questions that you very experienced breeders can help her with. :wave:


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

tink, you might like my "warning: may offend back yard breeders" post! its in this section of the forum...
and i totally agree! 

stephy you might like it too, its one of those sad but true from the humourous side!

unfortunatly many of the things said...well take a look at the thread and youll see what i mean...


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

yeah i thought it was pretty good. sad thing is i thought about getting a female later on after i learned more and breeding them BUT after ready what u wrote foxy i have changed my mind- if i want another chi it will be a male so there will be no accidental baby making!!!


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## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

There is a sticky in the breeders section so why keep posting and posting about why you should or shouldn't breed? If people want to know the reasons and risks of breeding they can read the sticky there. This should not be harped on over and over again in the chat section, and there is no reason to be rude to each other. Everyone has there own opinions or experieces on this matter, so lets not make it an arguement about who is right and who is wrong.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

stephybooboo said:


> yeah i thought it was pretty good. sad thing is i thought about getting a female later on after i learned more and breeding them BUT after ready what u wrote foxy i have changed my mind- if i want another chi it will be a male so there will be no accidental baby making!!!


stephy, if you realy want a female chi you can do so just make sure to get both your dogs spayed/neutered to make sure no accidents happen, theres also alot of plusses to getting the dog spayed/neutered other than no accidental litters and it goes into the likes of both health and behaviour.
i know it is scary putting your dog under the knife, but theres sooo many plusses that just put the very small risks into perspective.

even breeders will spay/neuter any dog that cannot/shouldnot be bred anymore...

id love to know why you wouldnt want to spay neuter? have you had bad experiences...


Lady Belle, i totally agree, this is not the place for this the origional post was correctly placed, but many people dont have acess to the breeders forum (and its always dead in there  )


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

well we only had 1 dog that was neutered ( not by choice) the pound made us do it he was running around making too many pups ( this was when i was little i had no control over it). he got all weird and wouldnt' play or anything after that. i am VERY worried it will change my dog's temperment ( my bigger dog) and i am worried about the incotenece (sp?) thing. my vet is pushing me to do it he wont' really talk about it with me he just says she'll get cancer if i don't ugh. so i am switching vets. i have researched it online and my huband and i are mostly worried that she will have a change in temperment and right now she is great with our kids we dont' want that to change. i bought her a doggy diaper so that when she does go into heat she wont' drop blood all over my house. i DO NOT want puppies so she does not go outside without us.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

those are very common concerns and i understand not wanting to change her temperment but i can tell you with great confidence ive NEVER had a dog whos temperment changed after a spay/neuter.
my parents spaniel is neutered and just the biggest smush, he loves people very playfull...
male do tend to mello after a neuter, but females dont tend to change any at all.

your vets right about the cancers, an intact female dog is unfortunatly very likely to get mammery cancers, their risk rate is second only to mice... and i belive the numbers are an intact female is 15 times more liekley to get mammary cancer than humans are (those are some high risks!) the biggest problem is they are very swiftly spreading and it usually spreads to the lungs and internal organs before the owner even knows theres anything wrong. once on the lungs theres not much chance of survival unfortunatly and im told its a very painfull way to go (not being able ot breath properly ect)
males can have the same problem, testicular cancer can quickly spread into the urinary tract and digestive systems, another painfull way to go with not much that can be done, males if caught early enough the tumor woudl just be removed like you would when neutering but if you dont catch it (and how many of us actualy check the testicles daily for masses (most of which you wouldnt feel anyway because it forms inside the actual testicle to start)) if you dont catch it it like the cnacers i females is rapidly spreading.

my other huge worry with intact dogs is the righ risk of bone cancer...again another cancer thats painfull and almost impossible to cure in dogs. dogs dont have the kind of extensive treatments available to them as humans do and when your lucky to have a teaching hosptialt (they have the best equiptment) neerby the cost is incredibly high, so much so that most just cant afford to treat...

i do agree your vet shouldnt be being nasty about it they should explain not dictate, but what hes telling you is definatly the true risks...

of course its your choice, your being safe and keeping her away from males at that time of year, but i very much doubt (especially spayign later in life) it would change your dog...the change in temperment is actually seen as a myth....i dont quite agree with that because males will mello after a neuter, but ive never seen a females peronality change...cept shes less prone to mood swings (anyone that says intact females dont suffer pms is lying lol)

if your otherwise happy with your vet then i wouldnt change your vet just because hes pro spay/neuter, i would however talk to him seriously talk about your fears and explain while you wont be dictated to you will listen to him if he properly explains...
however if there are other aspects of this vet you dont like then YES change your vet, you should be comfrotatble with your vet and be happy wiht the service and your vet should treat you with respect.

hoep this quells any fears, even if you dont change your mind! 

at least your being responsible about having an intact dog...unfortunatly there are not enough responsible people out there.

oh and so you know on the incontincnce issue, a properly done spay or neuter will NOT cause incontinence. we actually found it cured my parents shy bladder. (if he got frightend or excited hes dribble and hasnt done it since his neuter)
and our past cocker who was spayed was fine while her neighbour an intact male lab did suffer incontinence in his old age...
unfortunatly just like with people some dogs suffer incontincence it shoudl never be the result of a spay/neuter! :wave:


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## LuvmySkippy (Oct 11, 2005)

Foxywench---thank you so much for taking the time to educate people about the downside of breeding. I personally think that if someone is not a professional breeder, then they are a backyard breeder and contributing to the problem of overpopulation of animals. It is irresponsible and wrong, and they can try to defend their actions all they want---it won't change what they are. 

Thank you for the service you have provided. I really appreciate it.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

*blush* thank you! its nice to know its apreciated...even if it is only apreciated by a few...
theres so much info out there on how to breed and the joys of breeding nd gushing over how cute the puppies are but so very little information on the OTHER side of breeding...


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

actually found this, this is an ACTUAL list of costs if you DONT need a stud fee or a csection, both of which can cost anythign from $500-$1500
this lady beeds in tennesee.

Updating & Health Clearances on Female $200.00
Progesterone Testing $200.00
Whelping box $250.00
Vet bills-x-rays, sonograms, well mother checks $400.00
Putting first aid whelping kit together $300.00
Vaccines for new litter $150.00
X-pen for puppies $80.00
Whelping pads, fleeces, toys for puppies, weaning supplies,
etc $450.00
Baby Scale $45.00
Well puppy and mother exams $150.00
You suddenly realize you are eating macaroni and cheese
while your dogs are eating Human Grade Dog food at
$55.00 a bag.


even without the high grade food for the mother and pups $2225...
this lady has been breeding for yorkshire terriers for a little over 30 years and this is her average cost PER LITTER and thats not including any kinds of complications that can arrise.
i personally do NOT know this lady and her post was sent to me by a frined who does.


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

OMG that is outrageous. i was one of the niave ppl that thing i get 2 dogs they do it i get pups. thank you for educating me foxy!!!!! i don't think i will try my hand at breeding- if i do get a pup i plan on calling the ppl i got kujo from or trying to rescue or adopt a pup- not necessarily a chi but something small so he can have a play mate his size boots is just HUGE for him. very interesting information foxy!!!! hope many others like me change thier minds :wave:


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## Gypsy (Feb 13, 2006)

I wasn't intending on arguing with anyone. :wave: I just was stating my experience on it. I'm not a breeder at all and only help my mom with her puppies. If I offended anyone I'm very sorry. I'm not an expert and learn new things every day. 

As I said before it does cost ALOT to breed and that per litter cost doesn't even include the cost of your dog, my mom paid an average of $1,000 for a good quality female from a breeder friend so a discounted price and would pay more for a male. So, there's thousands and thousands in that too. It's completely worth it to her because she loves the breed and her chis are her pets, she'd have them anyway but people often don't understand how much. I can't even count the number of times people have said there must be so much money to be made in breeding chis. I like her answer, there is money in chis and alot if it is my money. :lol: 

I still hold to the fact though that to be a good breeder you do not need to show your dogs. Half of the show breeders I know even, show only a small percentage of their dogs, the rest are bred to try to produce the next great show dog, not champions themselves. And, if you have money and know people you can get most dogs championship irregardless of their actual quality. So a champion or champions in pedigree doesn't mean as much to me as actual conformation, temperment, health, etc. 

Stephybooboo, I think maybe it was kind of a freak thing with your dog. I've had Deedlit spayed, my previous chihuahua Doe spayed, and our big dogs are all spayed/neutered. My sister's chi is spayed and some of my mom's chis are spayed. And I've never seen any temperment changes. How old was your dog when he was neutered? I know that I have read about juvenille spays sometimes causing temperment and behaviour issues (that would be before 4-5 months old).


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

i do agree with you watermonkey, especially on the not having to show part, in my mind confirmation is perfectly fine for breeding stock if all the heath certs back up AND a judge has looked the dog over (not nesicarily in a show situation) and deemed that dog to idea chi standard (or as close to)
like ive said before champions dont always produce champions so saying "my dog has *insert random number* champions in their pedigree" truly means nothing, ive seen 2 gorgeous champions produce ONLY pet quality puppies. i wish i could get dodgers champion ship just because, but he doesnt have the personality for the ring...even so an unbiased (one who didnt know me from that guy over in the bleachers) checked dodger over and confirmed his faults and his great points.
Vixie has some points towards but she seems to be losing interest in the ring (shed rather the judge scritch her belly than watch her walk lol) but again she has been completly looked over by an unbiased judge and again her faults and strongpoints have been confirmed, luckily dodoger and vixie compliment eachother and the few faults should cancel out. (dodgers tails not tight enough vixies tails too tight (sickle) so it SHOULD even out producing pups with great tail carraige.

and that part is another thing that peole tend to forget...breeding dogs is not just about the science of genetics its about the asthetics too...you shoudl breed dogs that compliment each other, negating eachothers faults, which is why it can be so difficult to find a deacent stud...


stephy...
amazing to see it broekn down huh?! when learning and my grandfather told me the cost i couldnt belive it, thought they had to be exagerating, but then to show me they made me make a list, they gave me all the things i had to do to produce the litter (breeding through pregnancy and delivery) and get the pups to their new home (vet vets wormings ect) once i had my list of each step i was sent off to various vets to find costs of the vacinations, and petshops to find the cost of "the puppy pack" food, weaning products ect...i had to make 3 lists from 3 different vets/shops
i had to write EVERYTHING down individually then afterwards add it all up and find the average of all 3 and that was my "average cost of breeding" once it was broken down like that it both amazed me and made more sense...it does add up VERY quickly...even for a toy breed...(i shudder to think the average cost of prooducing a litter (10+ pups) of great danes...the food cost alone *faints* lol.


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## Kari (May 13, 2004)

I completely agree with Kim on this. We are all individuals and all think differently, so I don't believe anyone is right or wrong, or all situations are the same. This arguement seems to be cooled down but if it gets fiesty again :lol: I will have to lock it. :wink:


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

promise ill try not to get fiesty! lol


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## Tammie_B (Nov 19, 2005)

So you say that only show dogs are worth having life? This is another aggrevating statement. That is the second time in this thread that I have read about how a judge should look the dog over. So are you all saying that if you breed only for betterment of the breed, then all the chihuauhas that are "pet quality" (as you all put it) should be put out of their misery? I will say it one more time, I chose my chis with the intention of breeding them. I chose my vet 20 years ago, and trust her judgement. I chose my chis with researching their history and bloodlines, history of free whelpers on the bitches side, etc. (also with my vet's help).

Foxywench - nobody buys a whelping box for every litter. They also do not buy a scale for every litter. Most vets will not perform a sonogram unless there is a problem. If it costs $400.00 for weaning supplies, something is definitely wrong. These prices are ridiculous and you know it. I am sick of hearing that breeders are not making money. They wouldn't be in it if they weren't making money. There isn't a breeder out there that would spend money out of their pocket to provide a buyer a pup. It is astounding that you think that is even believable.




foxywench said:


> i do agree with you watermonkey, especially on the not having to show part, in my mind confirmation is perfectly fine for breeding stock if all the heath certs back up AND a judge has looked the dog over (not nesicarily in a show situation) and deemed that dog to idea chi standard (or as close to)
> like ive said before champions dont always produce champions so saying "my dog has *insert random number* champions in their pedigree" truly means nothing, ive seen 2 gorgeous champions produce ONLY pet quality puppies. i wish i could get dodgers champion ship just because, but he doesnt have the personality for the ring...even so an unbiased (one who didnt know me from that guy over in the bleachers) checked dodger over and confirmed his faults and his great points.
> Vixie has some points towards but she seems to be losing interest in the ring (shed rather the judge scritch her belly than watch her walk lol) but again she has been completly looked over by an unbiased judge and again her faults and strongpoints have been confirmed, luckily dodoger and vixie compliment eachother and the few faults should cancel out. (dodgers tails not tight enough vixies tails too tight (sickle) so it SHOULD even out producing pups with great tail carraige.
> 
> ...


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## Blue Velvet Elvis (Dec 23, 2005)

No, she's saying the dogs that are not up to standard shouldn't be bred. I have a beautiful AKC schipperke that although has the sweetest face and expression, the best disposition and is generally a beautiful dog that also has legs that belong on a dog twice his size and he waddles when he walks... kind of like a sumo wrestler. 

Does he have great features? yes! But he shouldn't be bred because it would change the way schipperkes would look in the future. It's not just about the pets we have here and now, it's about the dogs our great great grandchildren will have. Once dogs are bred irresponsibly on a wide spread basis they become diluted from where they should be. Just like people who want to take landmarks and put parking lots over them, the irresponsible breeder takes away from the future. 

Nobody ever said the non standard dogs shouldn't be loved. They just shouldn't be reproducing other dogs with the same characteristics that make them stand apart.


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## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

Tammie_B said:


> Foxywench - nobody buys a whelping box for every litter. They also do not buy a scale for every litter. Most vets will not perform a sonogram unless there is a problem. If it costs $400.00 for weaning supplies, something is definitely wrong. These prices are ridiculous and you know it. I am sick of hearing that breeders are not making money. They wouldn't be in it if they weren't making money. There isn't a breeder out there that would spend money out of their pocket to provide a buyer a pup. It is astounding that you think that is even believable.


I have to totally agree with this. I custom made my whelping box and it was only $90 for supplies. If they cost $250 then I think I am going to start building them, and selling them.  
As for an x-pen-- you DO NOT need one. I am getting ready for Flowers next litter and I bought this thing called CUBES they are like shelves that you would put in a kids room but they make excellent puppy pens and it only cost me $20. I will post a picture of it later. 
Baby scale--- I got mine for $10 at Walmart.
First Aid whelping kit--UMM you don't need much for this. I spent like 90cents on latex gloves, already had the nasal suction thing to get fluids out of the mouth, $20 for a heating pad, already had dental floss to tie off cords if needed. So $300 for this is outrageous. 
Whelping pads-- I took old kids comforters ,cut them ,and sewed them and made my own.
Toys for puppies--$40
As for human grade dog food-- I used Chicken Soup for the Puppy Lovers Soul and it was $40 for 2 big bags. So I don't know where this lady is getting her food from but $55 for a bag of food is crazy.
Progesterone Testing---um anyone who breeds is gonna know when their dog is ready to mate.
(Vet bills-x-rays, sonograms, well mother checks $400.00) Sorry but this is crazy too. I spent $200 at the most on this. 
(Updating & Health Clearances on Female $200.00)I do agree with this amount.
However on the vaccines for the puppies that number is too low. Unless you only take the puppies for 1 set of shots. I took mine for a checkup after they were born and it cost $78, Then the first vaccines plus deworming was $150, then the second set of shots and another deworming was another $150. So my figures on this are $378.

So all together I spent $999, and that was for a litter of 6 puppies. That is a big difference from the $2225 that Foxy posted. So I agree with Tammi those prices are rediculous. It does cost a lot but still not as much as was posted.


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## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

Here is the pen for the puppies I am going to use, and if anyone wants to argue about my vet prices, I still have all the invoices  .











You can even take a piece out so the mother can get in and out but the puppies can't.









Stormy was checking it out









Here is the box it came in


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

> So you say that only show dogs are worth having life? This is another aggrevating statement. That is the second time in this thread that I have read about how a judge should look the dog over. So are you all saying that if you breed only for betterment of the breed, then all the chihuauhas that are "pet quality" (as you all put it) should be put out of their misery? I will say it one more time, I chose my chis with the intention of breeding them. I chose my vet 20 years ago, and trust her judgement. I chose my chis with researching their history and bloodlines, history of free whelpers on the bitches side, etc. (also with my vet's help).
> 
> Foxywench - nobody buys a whelping box for every litter. They also do not buy a scale for every litter. Most vets will not perform a sonogram unless there is a problem. If it costs $400.00 for weaning supplies, something is definitely wrong. These prices are ridiculous and you know it. I am sick of hearing that breeders are not making money. They wouldn't be in it if they weren't making money. There isn't a breeder out there that would spend money out of their pocket to provide a buyer a pup. It is astounding that you think that is even believable.


I was not going to touch this post...... Tammie I don't think her posts were targeted just to you. I am glad that you took the time to research where your dogs came from lots of people don't. It is sad to see so many dogs in the shelters put to sleep everyday. We do breed but I always keep that off the board there is someone that will always have a different opinion and you can't change that. The bottom line is there are Chihuahua's in shelters all over the place and my observation in MY area alone they are never the ones within breed standard. They are all on the larger scale and most likely came from a breeder who did not put much thought in what she was doing at the time. This is where the don't breed mentality comes in. We are on a public board no one knows the other I think if we all ran around promoting everyone that breeds its not going to turn out good in the end. There are lots of good things that come out of whelping a litter as well. Do I agree with everything Foxy says no but so be it. If she was raised around breeding her whole life and they lost dogs and it cost he family that much to whelp a litter then she is telling you what she knows from her experience. Yours may be different. 

As far as showing your dog...... In my opinion and that's all it is I think it can't hurt to have someone with a trained eye take a look at your dog what can it hurt? Judges can find flaws that you as an owner would over look. When we think of dog shows, you think that owner really cares about their dogs. They take the time to go out there travel and if the dog finishes great it looks like it is supposed to. Showing dogs is not cheap. 

Not every dog that is going to be bred has to be a show dog but should fall into the breed standard. The point is to breed a Chihuahua not a cocker spaniel. If the dog is way to big and the puppies end up way to big they get dumped. 'Most' people out looking for a dog don't do their research they see chi pups in the paper etc and run for the phone after all its the dog they see on every TV show right now. 5 months to a year later the dog does not look like the cute little dog they see on TV and the dog is dumped. Sad but this is fact. 

Money lol real breeders do not make money if they are lucky they brake even. To find out how much you will make please do this. Add the costs of both your dogs everything you have bought for them up to this date vet bills etc and then tell me how many litters you would need to have for your dogs just to support themselves. Not to mention you are not ready to breed at this time so you can add a couple more months of food and vet bills health testing all the stuff for breeding. Now if you are charging say 3000 a pup and breeding at every heat you may make out. But then say she needs a C~section first litter she gets spayed and then what? unless you want a handful of bitches at this point your breeding days are over. 

I don't think that anyone should tell you not to breed if you have nice looking dogs go for it god knows we need more good breeders out here.

Good luck to you. Don't take things so personal the best thing for us to do as responsible breeders is tell people the bad so they think twice about breeding.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

:banghead: 


dot get feisty dont get feisty dont get feisty LOL...

im trying to be good Kari! lol

and elvises mommy... thank you!!!! 

an thank you to you too clerk!


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## lalaNlucky (Jan 10, 2006)

can we all find a common ground...people are so high strung anymore with having such a STRONG opinion and being heard...arguing about this is not bettering the situation for all the dogs who are going to lose their homes/die this year because people are uneducated about being pet owners or are going to breed their dogs and A. give them away or b. sell them c. beat the crap out of them because they are an unwated litter or because the owner didnt know what they were getting into.

people need to be educated, period.
animals cant speak up and talk for themselves, like other groups out there in this world can, who are having problems. so we need to be their voice, cause we are the only voice they have.
i look @ my animals and it breaks my heart thinking about what so many animals go through, and so many of these girls on this board are SO passionate about that/ have seen some awful things..and they just want to express that, i don't think they are doing it with ill intentions.
If (with every situation, not just this one) people stopped getting so defensive, and stopped the finger pointing, and really heard the other person, things would be so much different,

the end.


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## Gypsy (Feb 13, 2006)

Well said Clek.  I agree that there isn't anything wrong with breeding if you have good quality dogs and most importantly, healthy dogs. I was only echoing some of the costs in my experiences because it can be a shocking thing to people if they go in expecting something else. In everything I've ever done I've thought it was best to learn the good and bad points. 

In my opinion if you are going to breed, one of the most important things you need to do is have a clause in your contract of every puppy you sell, that if the new owner should ever not keep it or can't take care of it, etc, it is to go back to you and you will keep it yourself for the rest of it's life or possibly rehome it if you find the right place for an older dog with possible temperment issues. If you are responsible for every dog you've bred for the rest of it's life then you can't be contributing to animals in shelters or rescues or homeless ones, one of the major arguements against breeders of all sorts. 

I agree that it's a controversial subject and I'm just stating my own opinions and experiences on the matter. I'm NOT a breeder myself although someday I may choose to breed a litter and am learning everything I can now. There are certainly ways to cut the costs on breeding a litter, such as making your own supplies (which my mom makes her own whelping boxes as well because they really are very very expensive, I've seen them up in the 3 and 400s.) and she gives her own vaccinations and has for years. She feeds Innova food and it's about 40$ for a big bag of adult and 26$ for a 15 pound bag of puppy so the food estimates aren't that far off. I know the Royal Canin was higher which we used to feed and I know Merrick is expensive too. 

But it is expensive, to breed a litter, whether you figure 999 or 2225 or somewhere in-between and it's hard to add up all your costs since they can vary so much for each litter. My mom had to have three c-sections in a row this year, all three females who hadn't had to have them before and came from freewhelping lines, there was a puppy stuck because it lost it's bag on one, a baby turned sideways in the birthcanal in the other, and the other female just didn't want to strain at all while in labor. That was a big amount of money there, something you just have to plan for when breeding. 

I don't think pet quality dogs are worthless at all Tammieb, I have two beautiful chihuahuas I wouldn't breed. Deedlit had a head injury, but besides that has a longer nose, is 8 pounds, and just isn't within the standard enough and Cosette is 2 1/2 pounds, enough said. I love these two more than anything, It doesn't matter a bit that they aren't show quality dogs. I didn't pick them out to be anything more than my babies.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

Eloquently Said LalaNlucky! :thumbleft:

and  to you too deedit and cosettes mommy (im soooo bad with rembering screennames lol)


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## Tammie_B (Nov 19, 2005)

Clek1430 said:


> > So you say that only show dogs are worth having life? This is another aggrevating statement. That is the second time in this thread that I have read about how a judge should look the dog over. So are you all saying that if you breed only for betterment of the breed, then all the chihuauhas that are "pet quality" (as you all put it) should be put out of their misery? I will say it one more time, I chose my chis with the intention of breeding them. I chose my vet 20 years ago, and trust her judgement. I chose my chis with researching their history and bloodlines, history of free whelpers on the bitches side, etc. (also with my vet's help).
> >
> > Foxywench - nobody buys a whelping box for every litter. They also do not buy a scale for every litter. Most vets will not perform a sonogram unless there is a problem. If it costs $400.00 for weaning supplies, something is definitely wrong. These prices are ridiculous and you know it. I am sick of hearing that breeders are not making money. They wouldn't be in it if they weren't making money. There isn't a breeder out there that would spend money out of their pocket to provide a buyer a pup. It is astounding that you think that is even believable.
> 
> ...


I am breeding them once for myself. My female came from a free whelper and only from a litter of two... and my female's mother came from a free whelper and a litter of one. I am breeding her for only one litter and I am not selling the pups. My mother will get one, my mother in law will get one and I will keep what is left. Then I will have my female spayed.

she is 4.9 lbs and too young right now, and will not be bred until she is at least 2 years old.


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## Kari (May 13, 2004)

I think Kim proved my statement quite well. Not every breeder or litter of puppies is the same. Not everyone buys everything from the same place and sees the same vet, so yes the prices can vary greatly.

To be honest I see *good points in both sides*. So I could not join this arguement with anything good to add. :lol:


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