# Psycho Breeder



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

Glorida Lamber of "Tanyas Toys" is using Jack's picture in an "anti merle" part of her website. I just wanted to let you guys know if anyone else sees Jack's pictures anywhere to please let me know. Thanks guys!


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

Want me to hurt her for ya Katie  I'll keep a lookout.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

haha yes please!   thanks alisha! my poor innocent little jack! being used for such horrible things. aren't people sick? makes me not want to post pictures anymore lol


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

It's a really crappy thing to do using someone elses dogs pic like that without permission :foxes15:


----------



## MissMolly (Jan 28, 2005)

Aww!
That's terrible!
Poor little Jack!
I will be on the lookout!


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

Katie I sent her an email


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

thank you! but i warn you.. she is a PSYCHO lolol


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I have spam filters & I have plenty of email addys they give me just for this kind of thing :lol:


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

LOL I <3 you


----------



## Kari (May 13, 2004)

What a witch! :x Can she do that without your permission? :evil:


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

I dont think so!! I'm going to call lawyers tomorrow to find out for sure. There must be some kind of copyright laws


----------



## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

WOW :foxes15::foxes15: I really dont think she's allowed to do that. Those are your pictures thus your property and from what I know of copywrite you cant use someones images in a negative way without asking its slander.


----------



## *Chloe* (Feb 6, 2006)

yes all ur pictures are copyright of u she cant use them without ur permission -  some people are horrible


----------



## Kat & Jinxy (Jul 7, 2006)

i love my cheese said:


> I dont think so!! I'm going to call lawyers tomorrow to find out for sure. There must be some kind of copyright laws


Sounds good to me. Call your lawyer. She shouldn't get away with it.


----------



## Kioana (Mar 1, 2005)

Alright well i went to her website to see what you was talking about and i saw this ...


> © Tanya'sToys 1989- 2004 all rights reserved . No image or script may be used on any web site without expressed written permission. Use of the information contained on this web site constitutes an acknowledgement that the user hereby releases and indemnifies Tanya's Toys, and its officers, directors, members, and agents from any and all liability and damages sustained by the user as a result of any information obtained from this website. Please read the site disclaimer. To report problems with this web site please Contact the webmaster.​




which makes me think that you do have a case as far as her taking the photo but if you sent it to her a friend said that it's like you giveing her permission. BUT don't quote me on that, i'm just telling you what i've been told. i hop this helps some

here's her disclaimer....​*



<H2 align=left>Disclaimer


Click to expand...

*


> Tanya's Toys(herein referred to as, "TT", "Tanya's", " our", "us", or "we") provides this web site on an informational, "as is" basis. While it is our intent to provide accurate, complete, and current information; no warranties, express or implied, are made regarding the accuracy, completeness, legality, and/or timeliness of any information displayed on the pages of this web site. In no event will the Tanya's Toys ( Gloria Lambert) be liable for any damages whatsoever, whether direct, consequential, incidental, or special arising out of the use of or inability to use the information provided. We reserve the right to alter and update any information contained on its web site without notice.
> Tanya's Toys does not endorse any of the products, services, vendors, or data referenced in the web site. Any mention of products, services, vendors, or data is for informational purposes only. The opinions and views of the authors of works published on this web site do not necessarily reflect the beliefs, opinions, or policy of Tanya's Toys, and shall not be construed as an endorsement by Tanya's Toys. Any person or entity that relies on information contained herein does so at their own risk. Acceptance and use of the information contained on this web site constitutes an acknowledgement that the user hereby releases and indemnifies the Tanya's Toys, and its officers, directors, members, and agents from any and all liability and damages sustained by the user as a result of any information obtained from this web site.
> This web site may include hyperlinks to other sites on the Internet that are not controlled or endorsed by Tanya's Toys. The presence of these links on the web site is not intended to imply endorsement of that site, but to provide a convenient links to relevant sites which are managed by other individuals or organizations. By utilizing the hyperlinks you acknowledge that the Tanya's Toys, is not responsible for the material contained on the external hyper linked web sites.
> © Tanya's Toys 2004-2007​


</H2>


----------



## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

she's a horrible person katie  and yeah pics/artwork are copyrighted to you when you take/make them she can't do what she's doing. funny how she posts that you can't use her pics/scripts from her site but it's okay for her to use yours :roll:


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

all of these "anti merle" people keep asking me to have jack DNAd to prove that he is not a double merle. saying they'll even pay for it! i dont know how they do this? a blood test? i dont want him to go through ANY kind of pain for the pleasure of someone who doesnt know him or me. i really dont think it would change their minds anyway. i dont care what he is


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

I was emailing with her last night, asking her to take his picture down and she told me if I could prove that I'm his owner she would take it down so I sent her a picture of Jack with a note and I blacked out his eye and she removed the black spot and put the new picture up. She wants to know who his breeder is and tells me she already knows but I know for a fact that she doesn't. She thinks she knows but she doesn't and I bet even if I told her she would leave his picture up 


http://www.merlechihuahua.com/


----------



## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

email her back, tell her you proved jack is YOUR dog and she must remove the picture or legal action will be taken!
she has no rights to your image, and has no rights to demand to know who the breeder is...
are you planning on breeding him? if the answer is no then what does it matter if hes double merle or not unless YOU want to know (its a dna test much like a humans, they can either do a blood test or a cell scraping, its not painfull but can be expensive) if he is a double merle then his breeder needs to be talked to, but otherwise who cares, hes your baby you love him and she has NO rights to using your picture.

i would demand she remove the image in an email AND send her a formal written letter, get it postmarked and dated and sent certified mail keep a copy of it for yourself, this way you have proof you not only sent a formal letter but that she also recived it. keep all copies of your emails with the person and tell her formally in the letter, if the image is NOT removed legal action WILL be taken. things only in type dont hold as much sway in court as a formal written letter.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

She says she doesn't care and "hopes" that I do take legal action to get the picture removed


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I suggest everyone here get an email addy you don't use all the time & email her about this. Think about how you'd feel if it were your dog.Maybe if enough of us bug her about it she'll take it down.


----------



## usi2004 (Jun 27, 2006)

Does she even know you?!?! Who in the world would put up a picture of a dog thats not even yours? I had the same problem with photos from my myspace, someone stole them and used them on their myspace making fun of me! We went to court! He lost. She's insane for doing this, you could easily sue her and win.


----------



## usi2004 (Jun 27, 2006)

I emailed her too, I'd be pissed to say the least if I were you. If you want, I could have my dad contact her, he's an attorney.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

It all started here... http://plubaforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7956043/m/4991009123/p/4


I saw the picture of Jack and recognized it from a forum I posted on TWICE.. it's a pro-merle forum (chihuahuas of a different color) and I knew that's where she got his picture from. And then I read down in my thread on the pro-merle forum and someone posted telling me that a lady named Gloria Lambert was using Jack's picture in petitions to ban merles and I googled her and found her website and he was on there. I have emailed her and repeatedly asked her to take down his picture, told her that I don't approve of his breeder and that I see her side of the story but that my pictures don't need to be used on her website that she could just voice her opinion without stealing someones pictures.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

OOO Melissa I would love you forever!!


----------



## usi2004 (Jun 27, 2006)

Also, I emailed her, and she emailed me back, said you gave her permission. 
Psstt!! PM'ed u Katie!


From: "Gloria Lambert" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert 
To: "Melissa Kellems" <[email protected]> 
Subject: Re: 
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:50:32 -0500 
She has given me permission ask her
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Melissa Kellems 
To: [email protected] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 10:48 AM


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

lol.. No I have not. I'll go email her again. 


She told me if I could prove that I was Jack's owner she would take it down. So I sent her a picture to prove it.. not to be used on her website... and I even blacked out his eye and she removed the black spot and put it up. I'll email her again just to clarify lol


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

These were the emails from last night...


Me- I sent you pictures and I know you saw them on the forum anyway. I thought all you needed was proof that he is mine. Now you have it and you haven't kept your word. Like I said from the beginning.. all you want is his breeders name. Too bad I didn't fall for it. Jack is a wonderful dog and I am so sorry that you are limiting yourself and being so closed minded as to not enjoy the beautiful patterns and coats of chihuahuas. Jack deserves to be respected and loved just as any chihuahua. I can't change his breeder or the fact that Jack was born. I am just here to love him and take care of him. What you are doing is wrong and I don't know how you sleep at night. It is one thing to voice your opinion but to steal someones pictures is just sick and twisted. I guess you won't mind me using your pictures for my personal opinions either. If you'd like any other pictures of Jack to prove that he is mine just let me know ;-) 


Her- 
Thanks for the new picture of Jack I took the other one off.




Ummm I didn't give her permission lol ??? 
I sent her another email and told her she does not have permission to use any pictures of my dogs..waiting to hear back


----------



## BellaLina's Mom (Mar 16, 2007)

Do you have a friend who is an attorney (not necessarily a copyright attorney) and as a favor to you, write a brief letter to her to take down Jack's photo? If she receives a letter on an attorney's stationery, she may decide to take down Jack's photo to avoid legal action against her.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

Well Melissa is going to talk to her dad who is an attorney to see what can be done. So I'll keep you all updated.


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I never got a response form my first email. I sent another from another addy.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

Thanks Alisha  rotest:


----------



## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

I dont get it.. what is this womans bloody problem?? its not like you're using him as a stud dog he's a pet!! ugh damn woman, sue the crap out of her Katie and also sue for emotional distressed caused to yourself due to what she is doing.


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I basically got the same response that you gave her permission. Which I said in the email I knew she didn't have permission.She sent me an email from you that was either a fake one or you being sarcastic.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

I sent her that AFTER she put up the picture because it was like 3am and I thought I would just have to give in and get over it. 

I sent her this... 

no problem. i think that one is a much more flattering picture. i have the cutest chihuahua in the world. i can see how jealous you are and i thank you for showing off his beauty to the world! he is my star!!


obviously sarcastic. but no where did she ask me if she could use his picture and no where did i say yes you can put up his picture on your website. 


i sent her this and she won't respond..
Hi Gloria. I am in contact with an attorney over the copyright laws. You do not have permission to use Jack's picture anywhere. Please remove them from all of your posts, petitions, forums, website and anywhere else you have illegally used my pictures. Thanks

Katie


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I knew it was sarcastic I guess she's too stupid to know the diff. Hmm I'm trying to figure out how to get a campaign to email her like crazy from tons of people.


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

She callled all of us on this forum scum  It's getting really nasty now she's threatening me with her attornies lol She really is psycho !!


----------



## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

Oh my I hope you get this straightened out. I wrote her telling her it was very pathetic to use someones picture without their permission and she says she has permission and she sent this saying you even thanked her 

From: [email protected] 
To: [email protected] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: 


no problem. i think that one is a much more flattering picture. i have the cutest chihuahua in the world. i can see how jealous you are and i thank you for showing off his beauty to the world! he is my star!!


This woman knows you were being sarcastic but now she says this is the permission you gave her. This woman is sick and needs some mental help.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

I don't know how she thinks that's permission.. I never told her it was ok to put it up. Having permission is to ask a person if it's ok and the person telling you yes. She knows she doesnt have my permission and she knows she's wrong. Thanks guys for all the help and support. My family just says to ignore her


----------



## *Lydz* (Mar 30, 2007)

i am TOTALLY gobsmacked! What an evil woman!

She obviously has no case against you - although that email you sent (the sarcastic one) wasn't the best idea, just because i know how fickle the law can be. But i would have probably said a lot worse to her in the heat of the moment!

Hope it all works out  Jack is a star we all love him!


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

Thanks. Yeah I shouldn't have said it.. I just really thought that nothing would come out of it and that I'd just have to try and forget about it. I still don't see it as giving her permission but who knows. All of this is just getting completely blown out of proportion. I don't know why it's such a big deal to her to take down his picture. All of her information and opinions will still be there... she really is a crazy woman.


----------



## MissMolly (Jan 28, 2005)

This is all so ridiculous!

I can only imagine how you're feeling!

I really hope that she starts taking the threat of legal action seriously!


----------



## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

katie i wouldn't give her anymore information like you said she will only continue to post his pic regardless of what you tell her about his breeder. 

i think she's just hoping you will give up. i can't believe how insane she is. i hope you hear from the postmaster soon


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

Well why it is such a big deal to her is because most people think that this can ONLY happen to double merles. She has studied and said that this can and does happen to single merles for years. No one believed her. your boy shows that it does. Though I feel that she should take it down if you want it to be so, I also feel that it is important to even the merle breeders to know this can happen to single merle with dilute gene dogs.
bless you for giving him a good home.


----------



## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

tailwagging said:


> Well why it is such a big deal to her is because most people think that this can ONLY happen to double merles. She has studied and said that this can and does happen to single merles for years. No one believed her. your boy shows that it does. Though I feel that she should take it down if you want it to be so, I also feel that it is important to even the merle breeders to know this can happen to signal merle with dilute gene dogs.
> bless you for giving him a good home.


it doesn't matter what she has studied or thinks about merles. it has to do with posting a picture she doesn't have permission to post.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

why cant she say that in words then? anyone who does their research can see that it can happen without coming from a double merle. and if they want to see it they can come here and have a look.. i'm always willing and happy to explain jacks story. she doesnt need to send around his picture and post it on her website. there is no justification for what she is doing. jack is not here to prove anything to anyone.


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

Jen said:


> it doesn't matter what she has studied or thinks about merles. it has to do with posting a picture she doesn't have permission to post.


True I fully agree


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

i love my cheese said:


> why cant she say that in words then? anyone who does their research can see that it can happen without coming from a double merle. and if they want to see it they can come here and have a look.. i'm always willing and happy to explain jacks story. she doesnt need to send around his picture and post it on her website. there is no justification for what she is doing. jack is not here to prove anything to anyone.


Most Merle advocates don't want it to be known that this can happen in singles. I my self did research since I love the color/pattern and basically only found info on eye probs in double merle. most people want to see proof.
I am sorry this happened to you. I do hope it works out for you.


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

She took it down. =)


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

Thanks. I'll write her and tell her thank you also.


----------



## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

nice she did the right thing.


----------



## usi2004 (Jun 27, 2006)

Yep, she emailed me and said she was taking it down  Plus, the new dog on there, is a much better example . Jack is too adorable to be made an example of!


----------



## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

i hope she has the new dog's owner's permission.


----------



## usi2004 (Jun 27, 2006)

No kidding.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

Thank you SOO much for all your help guys and please thank your Dad for me Melissa. I'm sure he is the reason she took it down. 

I was thinking the same thing about the new pictures up... probably more stolen pics


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

i love my cheese said:


> Thank you SOO much for all your help guys and please thank your Dad for me Melissa. I'm sure he is the reason she took it down.
> 
> I was thinking the same thing about the new pictures up... probably more stolen pics


she really is a good person. you just gatta get to know her. she loves this breed with a passion. though it comes off a bit coarse at times.
I think she would have taken it down just cuz you wanted it to be when she had a little time to think about it.


----------



## usi2004 (Jun 27, 2006)

tailwagging said:


> she really is a good person. you just gatta get to know her. she loves this breed with a passion. though it comes off a bit coarse at times.
> I think she would have taken it down just cuz you wanted it to be when she had a little time to think about it.


Anyone can say anyone is a good person, but it takes actions to prove it. Soooo...
Atleast in the end she did the right thing, even if it took threats for her to do it.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

good people don't steal....


----------



## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

i think we all love the breed with a passion here  

i just found it funny that she would post on her own site about not taking her pictures and using them without her permission but she didn't have a problem doing it to katie :roll:


----------



## Rubyfox (Jul 11, 2005)

Glad she has taken it off at last...
Why are some people like that????


----------



## tlspiegel (Jan 22, 2006)

I've been following this thread and I'm happy she finally took down the picture. Jack is a very handsome and happy chi.


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I still see his pic up with a handwritten note in front of it that says Jack says hi Gloria love KT & Jack


----------



## usi2004 (Jun 27, 2006)

try to refresh, when it updated it didn't show jack for me


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

Nope it's still Jack


----------



## usi2004 (Jun 27, 2006)

http://www.tanyastoys.com/infoM.htm I'm seeing a little white dog? It's not jack?


----------



## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

empty your cache maybe alisha? i see the new chi.


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

Yes I saw that dog but if you click on Merles on her home page then scroll down & click on click here for updates that's where I still see him.


----------



## usi2004 (Jun 27, 2006)

I see the white dog there too ...


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

Hmm I have no clue how to empty my cache hehe just do a scan


----------



## usi2004 (Jun 27, 2006)

I think go to tools, internet options, clear out history, cookies, all that stuff.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

Yeah I see the white dog too


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

Yep that worked. I feel sorry for that dog now


----------



## Taylor89 (Jun 20, 2007)

i love my cheese said:


> Glorida Lamber of "Tanyas Toys" is using Jack's picture in an "anti merle" part of her website. I just wanted to let you guys know if anyone else sees Jack's pictures anywhere to please let me know. Thanks guys!



I don't get it, why are people against Merles? And do you mins giving her email address. I just think that's awful because Im sure Jack is a great pup


----------



## usi2004 (Jun 27, 2006)

Taylor89 said:


> I don't get it, why are people against Merles? And do you mins giving her email address. I just think that's awful because Im sure Jack is a great pup


They are against them because there are genetic problems if they aren't breed by someone who is responsible and knows what they are doing. I agree there need to be more guidelines with people who breed merles, but thats not even the issue. You dont take pics that aren't yours. Period. :foxes15:


BTW, I'd love to get a merle from a good breeder. Anyone know one? After my new puppy died, I know I'm not ready right now but still want to keep looking.


----------



## Taylor89 (Jun 20, 2007)

I didnt see Jacks pic. May I ask you a question? I read the article and it says that merles have problems and all. Is there anything wrong with Jack?


----------



## Taylor89 (Jun 20, 2007)

usi2004 said:


> They are against them because there are genetic problems if they aren't breed by someone who is responsible and knows what they are doing. I agree there need to be more guidelines with people who breed merles, but thats not even the issue. You dont take pics that aren't yours. Period. :foxes15:



Right I completely agree. I couldn't find the pic though. Does she know Jack or his owner?


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

She took the picture down now. She doesn't know me or Jack no. She found his picture on another forum and used it on her website and when I asked her to take it down she refused but thankfully now has removed it. 

Jack has microthalmia in his left eye. He is blind on that side due to his coloring (merle). Merle chihuahuas are very controversial not only because of the health problems that can come from them but a lot of people don't believe they are pure bred. You all know Jack is a happy guy who plays and has a great life. It's sad about his eye but it hurts to think that people think he shouldn't be here. I can't convince anyone and everyone has their personal opinions on the subject but I was just upset that she stole my pictures.


----------



## Taylor89 (Jun 20, 2007)

i love my cheese said:


> She took the picture down now. She doesn't know me or Jack no. She found his picture on another forum and used it on her website and when I asked her to take it down she refused but thankfully now has removed it.
> 
> Jack has microthalmia in his left eye. He is blind on that side due to his coloring (merle). Merle chihuahuas are very controversial not only because of the health problems that can come from them but a lot of people don't believe they are pure bred. You all know Jack is a happy guy who plays and has a great life. It's sad about his eye but it hurts to think that people think he shouldn't be here. I can't convince anyone and everyone has their personal opinions on the subject but I was just upset that she stole my pictures.



so breeders don't purposely breed merles? well i think hes cute. :daisy: That lady is crazy...just because merles are born doesn't mean they don't need a home or love from an owner.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

Some breeders breed them on purpose and other breeders are against the breeding of merles like Gloria who was using Jack's picture to try and convince people not to breed or buy them.


----------



## Taylor89 (Jun 20, 2007)

i love my cheese said:


> Some breeders breed them on purpose and other breeders are against the breeding of merles like Gloria who was using Jack's picture to try and convince people not to breed or buy them.


Oh. Ok well thanks for all the info. I have never seen a Merle personally but I had heard of them. Thanks for clearing up things up for me because I never understood peoples problem with it


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

No problem! :wave:


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

Katie I'm so happy all this worked out  I was getting really angry about it.


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

The prob with merles is that you can have a dog that looks fawn, cream, white, red sable........ in fact any color other then black/tan blue/tan chocolate/tan (take a look at the link below) ..... that is genetically merle. If you accidentally breed two Chiuahiua with merle genes you very often get small eyes,no eyes and or deaf puppies, like the pup on Tanya toys page.

Now with Jack it is proof that you can get it when only one parent has merle genes.


http://www.akc.org/breeds/chihuahua/color_markings.cfm


----------



## rachel (Jun 16, 2006)

Holy Cow! I just now read this! That's ridiculous all of the trouble that you & everyone else had to go through! I'm glad that his picture finally got taken down.


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

Jack is a special boy.
In the eyes of the Anti-merle his picture may save many puppies from living handicapped lives or from being put down.
Pro-merles will hate to face the truth about his genes being single merle.

As it is it is up to the breeder weather or not they can live with themselves producing handicapped pups.


----------



## BellaLina's Mom (Mar 16, 2007)

Wow! After all the time and trouble you've gone through with this breeder, she finally agreed to take down Jack's stolen photo (what a stubborn woman). I'm glad that things worked out.

Thank you for educating us about merles - I learned something new about the chi breed. Jack is a special chihuahua and cute too.


----------



## Kioana (Mar 1, 2005)

well just got home. glad to here that everything is over and done with!


----------



## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

I do still love Merles though!


----------



## Taylor89 (Jun 20, 2007)

tailwagging said:


> Jack is a special boy.
> In the eyes of the Anti-merle his picture may save many puppies from living handicapped lives or from being put down.
> Pro-merles will hate to face the truth about his genes being single merle.
> 
> As it is it is up to the breeder weather or not they can live with themselves producing handicapped pups.



But can they truly accidently breed them or do they know which chis have the genes to pass on?


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

sullysmum said:


> I do still love Merles though!


They are sooooo pretty I agree!


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

Taylor89 said:


> But can they truly accidently breed them or do they know which chis have the genes to pass on?



Yes they can look another color but have the merle gene. 
So let say years down the road you get a cream to breed to you nice sable. unbeknown to you someone fudge on a paper and put their better bitch or dog as one the cream's parents. that means the color pedigree is wrong. (or maybe the was an opps breeding that they didn't see) you know that your sable is a hidden merle but hay your not breeding it to a merle. at lest that is what you think.

or you breed your outstanding merle to a black/tan/white who has merle on it's side as well. you feel safe cuz you are breeding to a black/tan but you don't realize that it really is a very lightly marked merle and the merle spot was "covered" by the white markings (yes white covers the true color by reducing the true pigment) this happens often with Australian shepherds. 


or someone breeds a hidden merle that looks cream , fawn or what ever to a black/tan and get all hidden merle creams, fawns.......

you can also get probs from breeding merle to spotteds. since both reduce the pigment. This is what I believe happened to Jack. So you breed only to solid black/tan but the spotted gene is in the breed Soooo much that it would be very very very hard if not impossible to find a pedigree that doesn't have spotted in it AND only black/tan.



Sorry if I am rambling on . It has been a lonnnnngggg day.


----------



## *Lydz* (Mar 30, 2007)

So there is no 100% proof that Jack is a single merle.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

Not without DNA testing can any of these theories be for sure. 

He could possibly be a double merle, I don't think he is but I can't know for sure.
His eye could also POSSIBLY not have anything to do with his coloring.. unlikely but still possible.

I don't want to DNA test him because I'm not breeding him and it doesn't matter to me what his genetic makeup is. No dog likes to be poked and prodded at and I just don't see the reason to make him go through that for the satisfaction of strangers. And who knows what they would do with the information anyway? I just don't trust them. They don't care about me or Jack obviously :roll:


http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/microphthalmia.html


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

Well the chance that he is single (unless the breeder is lying) is quite good. His dad was a tri. black/tan/white and from what little bit of pedigree that was available doesn't look to have merle behind him.
Why this is important is that a blue merle is really a black/tan dog with "gene color bleach" (irregular patterns of color pigment reducer aka merle or dapple) splattered on him This is why if a black/tan dog has the merle gene it WILL show up but if the is white it might be cover by the white color ( another pigment reducer) or be a very small amount of merling like dime sized.
I hear that there is a DNA test for the gene marker for merle (so happy to hear this!) but I am not sure if this will just show that he just merle, which we all ready know. If there is one that would tell if he was single he could help rewrite the responsible breeding of merle, in all merle breeds. 
I am not anti-merle. I love the color! but I am all so pro-healthy puppy
Jack has double does of pigment reducer merle and white on his blind side. that is why his an interest to both pro and anti. either way it is important to know this gene's ins outs and so fourth, So it can be bred resposably, which in trun can make the color/pattern more acceptable, to many who are on the fence about the color/pattern in the chihuahua.


----------



## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

ITA Katie he's your baby it's no one elses concern or business what his DNA says  Noones claiming Jacks the Daddy :lol:


----------



## *Lydz* (Mar 30, 2007)

No it definitely isn't worth getting a DNA test - why should Jack suffer to prove some point?! Im glad you got this sorted and {{{hugs}}}} to Jack


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

Not saying that KT should, it is of coarse up to her.
But most DNA testing is not a big horrible deal. most of my boys are DNAed. A mascara like brush swab is gently wiped on the inside of the cheek put in an envelope and sent off.


----------



## ria (May 22, 2007)

i love my cheese said:


> haha yes please!   thanks alisha! my poor innocent little jack! being used for such horrible things. aren't people sick? makes me not want to post pictures anymore lol


Don,t you dare sucumb to the beep beep beep insinuations of an ingorant jealouse tyrant Jack is beautiful SO THERE. :tongue4: :tongue4: :tongue4: :tongue4: Ria


----------



## ria (May 22, 2007)

Who the hell does this women think she is .By the way this is tara1st ria,s daughter this women is absolutley disgusting and should not be able to keep chis herself do we hear of the labradoodle being banned NO we beep beep dont so what the hell is wrong with two blue mearles being bred i personaly and mum too believe it could bring something new and very special to the breed just a shame that there are so many stuck up single minded people out there to me its just a form of racism or as you may prefer to put it predjudice its sickening she should be put to sleep herself rotest: rotest: rotest: rotest: rotest: :tongue3: :tongue3: :tongue3: Jack is beautiful and i would be proud to be his mummy GO JACK GO :thumbleft: :thumbleft: 
Pls let this note have no reflect on my mum as she does not wish any ill harm although im slighlty more outspoken than her lol


----------



## usi2004 (Jun 27, 2006)

ria said:


> Who the hell does this women think she is .By the way this is tara1st ria,s daughter this women is absolutley disgusting and should not be able to keep chis herself do we hear of the labradoodle being banned NO we beep beep dont so *what the hell is wrong with two blue mearles being bred i personaly and mum too believe it could bring something new and very special to the breed* just a shame that there are so many stuck up single minded people out there to me its just a form of racism or as you may prefer to put it predjudice its sickening she should be put to sleep herself rotest: rotest: rotest: rotest: rotest: :tongue3: :tongue3: :tongue3: Jack is beautiful and i would be proud to be his mummy GO JACK GO :thumbleft: :thumbleft:
> Pls let this note have no reflect on my mum as she does not wish any ill harm although im slighlty more outspoken than her lol


Causes alot of problems in the poor pups being born. That's the problem with it. As it was stated before, its not about her cause, just the stealing of pics!


----------



## ria (May 22, 2007)

*Whats going on*

Hello its tara1st again i do not mean to upset any one and pls correct me if i am wrong as i have not been a chi oener for very long i have just read the dna example for jack and my only way of being able to understand it is to turn it into that of a human.Now i come from a very mixed race background my father is jamaican and my mother is english my son is half costa rican(pls keep up as im losing myself lol) my son was diagnosed with sickle cell anaemia when he was two this means he could turn white basically or turn patchy now too me that is the same as jack so is this so called lady
(harlot) telling me that should my son be a dog excuse the expression that he should shunned! Again my apologies for upsetting anyone but i have a real problem when it comes to any form of rascism or predjudice and i have been brought up to believe that everyone has there own individuality no matter man or animal we are in the 21st century for christs sake black people no longer sit at the back of the bus.:evil3:    
Give me 5 mins in a room with the well im sorry to say i cant call her a lady woman and ill deal with her lol
Tara1st xx


----------



## ria (May 22, 2007)

usi2004 said:


> Causes alot of problems in the poor pups being born. That's the problem with it. As it was stated before, its not about her cause, just the stealing of pics!


Christ this is a first me apologising! the lady should not have taken jacks photos and used them at the end of the day she is using poor little jack as amuniton,And pls god i hope you all see past this old mare for what she is a disgruntled old sadist.Harsh words i know but i have fought many a dogs corner for 15 yrs from pittbulls to chis and it make me sick the disguting excuses that people come up with to cut a certain look or type out.I dont mean to cause nay ill harm but i am a very strong beleiver in everything and one deserves a chance at enjoying this wonderful thing we call life.I personally would tak it further thus to her using jacks photos it cannot be right 
All the best all tara1st xx


----------



## usi2004 (Jun 27, 2006)

I understand what your saying, but dogs cannot think for themselves so, we have to do it for them. If you know for sure something is wrong if you have a baby with someone else, it would be your choice to do it. Dogs do what comes natural, they dont know. I'm not saying you knew with sickle cell anemia, but as humans we have the ability to choose, dogs don't. Any pup can have something wrong with it when they are born, as can people. But theres no reason to try to MAKE it happen by breeding double merles. Know what I mean? I love the color, and hope people do more research on it, bc I actually want one myself!...Just my thoughts on the whole subject ! Anyway..


----------



## Pauline Leland (Oct 9, 2006)

I agree that the breeder should not have used Jack's photo without permission, and should have taken it down when first asked. Still, I can see that she could have been confused by i love my cheese's email and thought it _did_ give her permission to display them. One often reads into a message what one wants to hear. Asking for a DNA test went too far.

Anyway, she may have been in the wrong here, but I feel the insults directed toward her have been excessive. Ladies, I think some of you outdid yourselves.


----------



## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

i do think suggesting she be put to sleep herself and calling her a harlot is excessive :wink: 

she shouldn't have used katie's picture without her permission but she has removed it


----------



## Lin (Jun 7, 2006)

Jen said:


> i do think suggesting she be put to sleep herself and calling her a harlot is excessive :wink:
> 
> she shouldn't have used katie's picture without her permission but she has removed it


I'll agree with that, but I do think she's a poor business person with questionable ethics. I would never ever buy a dog from her.


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

usi2004 said:


> I understand what your saying, but dogs cannot think for themselves so, we have to do it for them. If you know for sure something is wrong if you have a baby with someone else, it would be your choice to do it. Dogs do what comes natural, they dont know. I'm not saying you knew with sickle cell anemia, but as humans we have the ability to choose, dogs don't. Any pup can have something wrong with it when they are born, as can people. But theres no reason to try to MAKE it happen by breeding double merles. Know what I mean? I love the color, and hope people do more research on it, bc I actually want one myself!...Just my thoughts on the whole subject ! Anyway..


I AGREE!! you put it in words that I couldn't find. THANK YOU! I too LOVE the color.


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

Pauline Leland said:


> I agree that the breeder should not have used Jack's photo without permission, and should have taken it down when first asked. Still, I can see that she could have been confused by i love my cheese's email and thought it _did_ give her permission to display them. One often reads into a message what one wants to hear. Asking for a DNA test went too far.
> 
> Anyway, she may have been in the wrong here, but I feel the insults directed toward her have been excessive. Ladies, I think some of you outdid yourselves.


 I may have miss understood, please correct me if I am wrong but I think it wasn't just her that wanted to pay for DNA.


----------



## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

chis rule said:


> I would never ever buy a dog from her.


OH lord knows I would in a heartbeat! Her Chis are top top outstanding!!
breathtaking!!!!!! I have seen a few in person and be still my heart!
She is just as hard on her self and her breeding program as she is on other people. she walks the walk not just talks the talks when it comes to breeding.


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

Thanks for the support Tara1st and everyone else here! Tara, I know it's easy to take it personally.. I actually brought up that very same point to Gloria. I explained that it's hurtful and that it was probably hard to understand since it hasn't happened to her and she doesn't know Jack. If I told someone their kid shouldn't be here because of their hair color/skin color people would have a much different reaction. But Jack is my baby, he's very important to me and it's hurtful to have people think she shouldn't have been born. 

I know that you can relate because you have a similar situation. Just because something isn't "perfect" doesn't mean they don't deserved to be loved and respected. Jack isn't effected by his eye at all.. you guys see his pictures. He plays and does everything like my other chis and more actually lol My little crazy man :love5: So it's hard to think that HE would be involved in any reason to not breed merles. Especially because his eye may not have anything to do with his coloring. I do think that breeders should do their research and testing before breeding merles but to tell people they shouldn't be here is harsh in my opinion but everyone has their own opinions though and that's fine.

I just want to say that it's hard for most people to relate to something like this. All they see is that he looks weird and they feel bad... he really IS fine. He doesn't need any sympathy. Of course I wouldn't WANT any dog to be blind in one eye but there are much more important things to focus on then the color of a dog, like animal abuse, puppy mills, back yard breeding and homeless pets. 

My main concern was Jack being a pawn in these peoples arguments without my permission or knowledge. It was WRONG in every way. Thankfully, it has been resolved. Gloria did apologize to me and I am really happy that his picture is off of her site. Thanks again everyone for understanding and helping me through this!


----------



## Kioana (Mar 1, 2005)

Katie you should start putting your name on his photos. H- E - double hockey sticks, it's not like it would take away from his wonderful photos.


----------



## tiny- dog- luverr (Oct 28, 2005)

I perosnally dont think think merles shoulsd be bred responsible or not,since the risks are so high to deformites,its a lovely colour but just how I feel about it,im glad she took it the pic down, im sorry jack had to go through that *hugs him*


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

Katie said:


> thank you! but i warn you.. she is a PSYCHO lolol


lol, wow! and this whole time i really thought she was legit. From what I understood, she is supposed to be one of the best in the country! sure, i heard from a few people that she was kind of nutty but over all, ive heard good things about her.


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

ok, so whatever happened? Sorry, this thread is so long and i wasnt able to read EVERY page so Im not sure what the outcome was. were you able to sue? im obviously not a lawyer but i thought that if a pic isnt copyrighted and it is shared on the internet that it becomes public domain? kind of like the same way if youre walking down the street and if someone takes a pic of you, the pic becomes the property of the photographers ( whether they had your permission or not) bc the pics where taken in a public area...thats why i am VERY protective of my puppy's pics. i not a lawyer, so im not sure! thats just what i thought bc i vaguely remember one of my h.s teachers saying something along those lines! But from a legal stand point, i am very curious to know what happened. I can look into it, though. I have a friend who studies law at UPenn so i can ask him but im not sure if he'd know the answer since this isnt his field...


----------



## Ciarra (May 6, 2008)

Wierd part is I was just on her website, and then I saw this post. She looks not all there with her whole anti merle speech. I have runned into a few crazy breeders.


----------



## Tora-Oni (Sep 13, 2008)

I have to say I saw more pom breeders with merles than chi's so I heard alot more about the debat while I was considering a pom. I like poms but the coat is too expensive for me and chi's just seem to have just as much going for them without the extra care. Anyways I like the merle look, I'm more of black/tan and tri colors and then sables. Merles have a beutiful colorful coat, I always thought they looked beautiful but I think they can be more expensive due to some demands. It doesn't really matter to me. Which the demands might have been the cause of some inapropriate breeding.


----------



## carachi (Mar 20, 2005)

I do not agree with the breeding of merles but that's a terrible thing to do without permission. Poor Jack


----------



## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

Wow, that's terrible. I would contact the host of the site and demand they have it taken down. That is illegal to post someone else's material. I dunno if anyone else said that, but I'm at work so I don't have time to read 17 pages haha  How annoying. Someone stole about 20 pictures of Yoshi's once and made a myspace profile with them. I was so mad ... myspace banned them though at least. Happened on dogster once too >_<


----------



## pinkglitterybunny (Jul 26, 2008)

thats just awful, I would feel so angry, and I feel sorry for any pups that are from this crazy woman and the chis she breeds  whats going to happen to her?? xx


----------



## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

If she publicly posts a copyrighted photo that she does not have permission to use - she is opening herself up to a lawsuit. A photograph is the copyright of the photographer who took it and it cannot be used unless written permission is given by the copyright owner.

You can definitely have the photo removed and I would demand that she write a public apology for the unauthorized use of Jack's photo on her website. That will serve to show potential puppy buyer's that she is not as "legit" as she seems to be.

Any business person (or someone who uses Facebook for GD sake) should know you can't post a photo online that you do not own the copyright to!!


----------



## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

Why do all the old threads keep popping up atm? This is over a year old isn't it


----------



## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

I was thinking the same thing!


----------



## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

sullysmum said:


> I was thinking the same thing!


Lol at least it isn't just me Donna I thought I was going crazy for a second


----------



## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

I believe someone wanted to know what the status of this was so they brought it back yesterday hehe


----------



## pinkglitterybunny (Jul 26, 2008)

lol i didnt even realise it was old, what a muppet i am lol x so what did happen then ???


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

*Sarah* said:


> Why do all the old threads keep popping up atm? This is over a year old isn't it


well, i like to comment on the topics i find interesting and also on pics of chis that i find beautiful. but those pics are old and the topics i find interesting are old, too. is that against the rules? if so i had no idea. i was just doing what we were told, by a mod, which was to comment on those topics we like and skip over those we dont... and to answer my own question, i got conflicting answers but the gen consensus ( from the internet and talking to Penn law students) seems to be if the person who "borrowed the images" isnt making a financial profit from the pic you wouldnt be able to sue unless the pics were copyrighted ( submitted to the copyright office)...i thought id share that bc that is something EVERYONE who posts pics online should know...


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

OrchardLane said:


> I believe someone wanted to know what the status of this was so they brought it back yesterday hehe


lol, it was me! i was interested in the outcome from a legal perspective


----------



## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

chibellaxo said:


> well, i like to comment on the topics i find interesting and also on pics of chis that i find beautiful. but those pics are old and the topics i find interesting are old, too. is that against the rules? if so i had no idea. i was just doing what we were told, which was to comment on those topics we like and skip over those we dont... and to answer my own question, i got conflicting answers but the gen consensus seems to be if the person who "borrowed the images" isnt making a financial profit from the pic you wouldnt be able to sue unless the pics were copyrighted ( submitted to the copyright office)...


Lol no it isn't against the rules  you were just playing with my sanity for a second as I wondered if it happened again that's all.


----------



## chibellaxo (Jul 6, 2008)

*Sarah* said:


> Lol no it isn't against the rules  you were just playing with my sanity for a second as I wondered if it happened again that's all.


lol, i was gonna say, "nobody quote me bc im not a lawyer!" haha, well ill add th disclaimer then: this is just info i learned from talking to law students and surfing the web. im prob wrong. i want to be wrong bc its messed up that a lot of ppl steal other ppl's pics and claim it as their own..thats why even though ive got this beautiful chi, id never be able to show him off bc some byb might steal his pic and claim they bred him...or worse trick someone into thinking theyre selling him


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

Ugh, that was one of the worst experiences for me. I'll never forget how I felt seeing his picture stolen and feeling so hurt and helpless. 

The issue wasn't so much that she stole the picture and wrote lies about him and merle chis but what bothered me the most was when I contacted her and asked her to take it down she refused. She wanted to start a fight about it, even knowing she was in the wrong! Little old me, a college student and her pet! A grown woman picking on a kid is just bizarre to me. Eventually she took it down after lots and lots of arguing and emails :foxes15: A member here helped me out, her father is a lawyer, and yes it is illegal. It didn't get taken that far because she did take it down but I was willing to go as far as needed! 

She can have all the opinions she wants but she shouldn't steal and hurt people in the process. I would never support someone like her regardless of how standard her dogs are (which obviously isn't important to me since I don't breed lol)


----------



## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

^ I'm glad you got it taken down.


----------

