# growling



## rousie (Dec 15, 2011)

Brax growled at ME 
Hi everyone , i have 2 chi's, brothers who are about 18 weeks old. I had them both in the same crate for sleeping, but as they got bigger i brought another crate and they are side by side. They are going fantastic being seperated at bedtime however........ last night they both jumped into the same one so i went to get one out and my chi growled at me... so i scruffed him out submitted him on the floor... i think he felt horrid afterwards because he kept hugging and kissing me. I hope he isnt going to start being nasty?? Its on my mind and im very worried.. He KNOWS im boss around here. PLEASE HELP ME LOL do anybody elses chi's growl at their owner?? 
Thanks everyone xox


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## 1_2_3_chi (Jan 3, 2012)

Hello - I totally know where you're coming from. My eldest started growling at us at that age and unfortunately we didn't correct it at the time (inexperienced, our first dog) and now it is something we 'live with'. My friend has his brother and they dealt with it straight away by lightly pinning (they say 'no bones'!) and now their Chi understands and wouldn't growl at them ever.

Just make sure you correct it each time so that he knows it's not acceptable. Otherwise you're faced with a pup who pushes the boundaries...like ours! x


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## mellawson (Nov 8, 2011)

Dogs can't talk so how else are they supposed to tell you they what they want or don't want? My dogs growl ,grumble, bark, yip, yap, ect all the time as long as they don't snarl or snap I don't consider it being nasty just voicing their opinion. I am they boss and as long as they do what I say they can grumble about it ain't that what kids do? Then again I'm about half crazy so maybe that's not the best advice...lol.


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## rousie (Dec 15, 2011)

Lol!! I hear what ur saying but I don't think he should growl at me.. The naughty twit lol


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## Squirrelflight (Nov 17, 2011)

I have 5 chis, 3 of which are 17 weeks today.  Like the above poster I do not worry over growling or grumbling as long as no teeth are showed. A dog that is not permitted to growl is more likely to bite in the long run. 

I'm going to assume from how you said you handled this that you believe in the dominance theory. Personally I do not and I feel it can be damaging to a dogs sense of security to be treated in such a manner. 

I would suggest in this situation that you simply grab some treats and call both dogs back out for a treat. Then you can simply get them and put them where they are supposed to be. I try to be sure that ALL of my interactions with my pups are positive and encouraging. Puppies learn a lot through example and how they are treated. I feel a dog is more likely to be aggressive if handled harshly or aggressively.


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## rousie (Dec 15, 2011)

I wasn't handling him harshly at all. In a litter, the mother makes them submit when they do wrong. And she can also be quiet rough with them. I think giving them treats for bad behavior would be simply rewarding it and may encourage bad behavior. I guess we are all different with what we expect from our furkids but for me growling AT ME is not acceptable. 
I know chi's can be especially bossy so I'm just trying to curb that out of him.. When it happened even my other chi knew his brother had done wrong. He looked at him as if to say 'Dude!!!! You just growled at mum!! Not cool!'


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## Squirrelflight (Nov 17, 2011)

Well we can certainly just agree to disagree. You said that you 'scruffed him out and submitted him to the floor'. That IMO is harsh and aggressive in nature. 

And just so you know I have a litter of 3 that are 17weeks along with the mother and father. I can assure you this is not how their mother handles them at all. She is not rough with them at all and it is not about dominating her pups. She teaches them about cooperation. Whatever she does they do. They are learning to respect each others and her space. It's a very complicated interaction and it is not harsh or dominating in any way.

They all growl at one another from time to time typically when they want their space and if the mother goes to the pup and they are sleeping/eating/playing and they growl at her to go away she simply gives them their space.

Unfortunately, much of what is said of how pups are reared by their mother is simply untrue. I spend hours each day just watching how she interacts with the litter and it is very impressive and different than what is generally put out there. 

Dogs do not force other dogs to submit unless they are aggressive. Dogs voluntarily submit to other dogs as a sign of trust and to show that they are not a threat. 

And this is not giving treats for bad behavior. It is creating a situation where they dog wants to do what you want the dog to do. There is no bad behavior here to correct. The pup is simply say in doggie language that it does not want to come out. Your choices at that point are to force the dog to come out anyway or to make coming out a more attractive option than staying in the crate. By controlling the circumstances and the environment you can avoid a confrontative event in which your pup may feel afraid and you gain cooperation. It's a win-win as far as I'm concerned.

I'll leave it at that and I hope you have an awesome day.  I'm sure others here will have some advice or opinions for you that are more in line with your beliefs on dog rearing.


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## DKT113 (Nov 26, 2011)

I am of the midset they don't always have to be happy about what is expected of them, but at the end of the day there are going to be times when they have to do something and growling or snapping because they don't want to is where I draw the line. I drew that same line with my children as well. 

There were times when one of my boys went to bed fine and the other one for whatever reason didn't want to ~ I didn't call them both to the living room after making popcorn for them both to celebrate the fact that one popped off about not wanting to go bed. If I had started that it would have been a post bedtime popcorn party in the living room nightly, they would have played me like a fiddle. It was good night, sleep tight, I love you see you in the morning and to bed they went in their own beds. It wouldn't work for everyone I realize that, but it worked for us. 

Rio goes totally nuts when she see white socks in motion, to the point of rough, hurtful play and growling, complete foot attacking when she does that she is told Be Nice! & gets removed from the situation immediately ~ people have the right to wear their socks without being attacked by a 4 legged piranha. It's a work in progress,and we just try and remain consistent at all times about it. She is a puppy and we love her and we realize she is learning how to live with us and we are learning how to live with her, but the bottom line is when I want to go to the kitchen in my socks I am going to go to my kitchen in my socks and not be attacked, no matter how fun she thinks it is. The same goes for bedtime, when it's time for bed it's time for bed~ we have a routine and while she might not be thrilled about it one particular night at a certain time upon occasion she needs to Crate Up & Snuggle In and go with the flow like the rest of us.

I am like mellawson 1/2 to 3/4's crazy as well so defintely take what I say with a grain of salt, salt substitute if you have a heart condition 

I would try and be consistent with how you handle it when it happens. Eventually he'll make the connection when he does x and you do/ say y he realizes x wasn't as cool as he thought it was and he learns because you did/said y, x's behavior was unacceptable in those specific conditions. We're in the middle of it ourselves ~ going the consistent route and we've had a few stern Be Nice! 's but we can have those and everyone is still able to have/ maintain their dignity. One specific little buggar just has to retract their teeth from our feet to keep hers :nwinkwink:


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## ~LS~ (Oct 29, 2011)

Squirrelflight said:


> I have 5 chis, 3 of which are 17 weeks today.  Like the above poster I do not worry over growling or grumbling as long as no teeth are showed. A dog that is not permitted to growl is more likely to bite in the long run.
> 
> I'm going to assume from how you said you handled this that you believe in the dominance theory. Personally I do not and I feel it can be damaging to a dogs sense of security to be treated in such a manner.
> 
> I would suggest in this situation that you simply grab some treats and call both dogs back out for a treat. Then you can simply get them and put them where they are supposed to be. I try to be sure that ALL of my interactions with my pups are positive and encouraging. Puppies learn a lot through example and how they are treated. I feel a dog is more likely to be aggressive if handled harshly or aggressively.



100% agreed.
Well said!


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## susan davis (Mar 25, 2011)

I agree with Michelle. Dominance is an old training theory. Try reading Pat Millers books. She is a great trainer, and is a change over from the old dominance type to the newer and better positive trainer.
The dog was simply trying to tell you that he didn't want to be separated from his brother. Could you get a larger crate so they could continue to sleep together? Try imagining what the dog saw/felt. "I growled to tell ma I didn't want to be separted from my brother, and the next thing I know, I'm being scruffed, and pinned to the ground. Wow Mom sure is weird!" Gotta act really scared so she'll quit. I think that if you had simply turned around and left for a minute, then tossed a treat into HIS crate, he'd have gone right in. YOU WIN. No problem, no violence. JMO Sue


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## sammyp (Jun 14, 2011)

I think if your dog is growling regardless of the size of your dog you do have to stop them. I do also think you was to harsh on your chi. 
Next time your chi does it to you take him away from the situation I mean take him and isolate him from the rest of the family for around 10 mins. Also if he growls you could give him a (little) nudge. My girls have never done this. Evoke and I would not allow it if they did growl at me in aggression


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## Finn (Sep 14, 2010)

I normally don't put up with that growling business in my home. If they are in my lap and they growl for any reason, they are off my lap.


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## rousie (Dec 15, 2011)

I did scruff him. But I did NOT hurt him at all. The only issue I have with treats in that situation is, I believe treats are for good behavior and to help with training. I don't think the situation I was in warranted a treat at all. With my staffy I had I submitted him from day 1, and if We was at the beach and he ran too far ahead all I would have to do is yell 'CRYUS!! ENOUGH!!' and he would submit on the spot untill I caught up. I learnt that from obedience classes . It works! The reason they are sleeping in their own crates now is I think they are more comfortable being able to stretch out, and because at 3am there's no more 'playing' and waking the whole house up . They are together from 6am untill about 11pm .


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## tysoncallmetyty (Nov 21, 2011)

My little Tyty has had the mean growl twice to his brother boo-boo when we were sleeping in bed and he didn't want' boo boo next to me. He got a stern no from me, and then we all went to sleep. The first time it really freaked poor boo-boo out. Tyson play growls with boo-boo all the time. He is really a feisty fellow. A lot more feisty than the rat terrier who is supposed to be so feisty. The rat terrier actually gets his feelings hurt and is a lot more needy..... Tyson is very protective and wants to make sure he's number one.... he's going to have to learn that he is not necessarily number one cause boo-boo has my heart too.


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## battyjac (Dec 20, 2011)

Mine just growled and snapped at me for the first time. She usually shares my lap with my toddler when he nurses. When he switches sides I pick her up and switch her side so she doesn't get squashed. When I picked her up she growled with teeth, really nasty, then put her head back to bite me. I tapped her lightly, turned her over in my arm (not on the floor) then put her on the floor and ignored her. She came back a few minutes later, I made her sit and brought her back on my lap. The toddler is off now so she has it to herself now. 

I'm not sure which theory I believe in. I've been watching Cesar Millan's videos the last few days, he sure gets results! I would rather be positive but I do have 4 kids ranging from 12-1 and I will NOT have biting. 

I was just thinking earlier about whether I should intervene with growling between the dogs in the backyard when the kids aren't near. It's a little unfair to the boxer that I usually end up correcting her when the puppy is the aggressor and "starts it." Makes me feel like when I was a little girl and picked on my brother until he hit me then he got in trouble for hitting a girl. I think they should be able to work some stuff out on their own but I don't want the chi being nasty to the boxer, both because it's not nice and because the boxer can't do anything back.


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## kimr (Nov 14, 2010)

Squirrelflight said:


> They all growl at one another from time to time typically when they want their space


The Chi growled at the poster, not the other dog. We don't tolerate that, either, and it's not good behaviour to encourage, especially with a treat. We are the ones in charge in our house. We have a 'growler' - Gracie...She also gets her feelings hurt easily, so all it takes is a stern reprimand to stop her. We do not interfere as much when she growls at the other dogs, unless she is trying to keep them from eating or take something they have. But we certainly don't reward her for this behaviour, directed towards human or animal. 

While I don't necessarily agree in showing dominance (I leave that up to the pack) I do believe in them knowing who is in charge. I use my tone of voice for this. All of mine are very sensitive to us being unhappy with them, and they are all eager to please, so this works very well for us.

Treats are used for positive situations in our house. The only reward mine get for going into their crate at night (which they do on command - all I have to say is "Bedtime" and open the gate) is "good babies".


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## Squirrelflight (Nov 17, 2011)

There seems to be some confusion on the treats .. A reward is only associated with the behavior if it is received in about 2-3 seconds of the event. 

This is NOT rewarding growling. It is ignoring the growling. Then calling the dogs (which is whole other event in the dogs world) and rewarding the dog for coming as called. 

It is better not to be confrontational. Dogs are very much in favor of avoiding all aggression when possible. They respond to humans very well when we use the same philosophy. ;-)


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## kimr (Nov 14, 2010)

Squirrelflight said:


> There seems to be some confusion on the treats .. A reward is only associated with the behavior if it is received in about 2-3 seconds of the event.


Not true...My dogs prove this every day. I can't take them all 3 out on leash at once, so I take the little one first, since he has to go more often. When I bring him back in and unhook him he goes and waits patiently by the treat jar until I get back with the other 2. I can assure you that is much longer than 2-3 seconds. 

You just don't reward bad behaviour, period. And if you think waiting 2-3 seconds is enough for your dog to distinguish between being wrong for growling at you and a distraction, I believe you're sorely mistaken.

How do you explain dogs that go through a destructive phase and express guilt hours later when you walk into the room and see what they've done? Is it okay to give them a treat 2-3 seconds later to distract them while you clean up? 

Perhaps you're just not giving them enough credit...They are much smarter than that, but if you send confusing signals, you end up with a confused dog that doesn't know how to behave.

Again, I'm not condoning pinning the animal to the floor, but that's just not the way I do things. But the last thing in the world I would do for a dog that just snapped at me is walk to the treat bowl and entice him to do what I wanted with treats. Anyway you put it, you're rewarding bad behaviour.


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## rousie (Dec 15, 2011)

My mum was a Breeder of German shepherds, And unless breeds are different then the mother DOES make them submit for bad behavior. Every puppy class iv ever attended , making your dog submit is one of the first things shown. It's like all this new age stuff, things change, and I'm of the opinion why fix it if it's not broke. My Chi's KNOW I'm the boss but of corse they will test the waters. Like today they decided it would be fun if they just ignored me when I called them. After 10 minutes chasing them around and around the pool they were submitted , ( one hand on each puppy ) and without me saying a word to them they were placed in the playpen. I most defanatly would not give them a treat to
Come to me because they KNOW when I say 'here' it means mum wants me, I better go over and see what for. Of corse, when I say here and they come immediately I'll give them a treat, I keep a pocket full of them- which they know lol. I can't remember if iv told you guys about mine loving the movie 'Beverly hills chihuahua' ?? Oh my. They think Chloe is PRIME!! Casper all but wee's himself if I show him the cover and say 'oohhhh wanna watch Chloe with mum?' lol


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

kimr said:


> Not true...My dogs prove this every day. I can't take them all 3 out on leash at once, so I take the little one first, since he has to go more often. When I bring him back in and unhook him he goes and waits patiently by the treat jar until I get back with the other 2. I can assure you that is much longer than 2-3 seconds.
> 
> You just don't reward bad behaviour, period. And if you think waiting 2-3 seconds is enough for your dog to distinguish between being wrong for growling at you and a distraction, I believe you're sorely mistaken.
> 
> ...


I think this is well put. There is a difference between what people imagine dominance training to be (alpha rolling and hitting your dog) and what those of us who practice NILIF and use methods that come from an idea of leadership ACTUALLY DO. I am my dogs leader, if they misbehave I do not reward them with treats, in fact they never get treats unless they earned them and growling at me would certainly not be earning them. Do I alpha roll or physically punish my dogs? No. Do I lead them and give them lots and of rules and make them earn treats and my attention? Yes. I lead them not by "forcing them to submit" but by giving them structure and being a calm and benevolent leader. This thread seems to be talking about three different schools of thought, but people seem to be oversimplifying it into "dominance" and "not" when in fact I think people are talking about three different things.

As far as the OP goes, I actually had an incident like this myself. We woke up in the middle of the night and my puppy (5 months at the time) growled at me when I reached in her crate to pick her up and bring her downstairs. I am afraid I don't have any advise as it never happened again and I chalked it up to general puppy shenanigans, growing up and trying to figure things out. I am really not sure what I would have done if she did it again, because growling at humans is not something I would let go for too long.

EDIT- I just wanted to say I re-read that sentience about the dogs feeling guilty hours later and I totally misunderstood it the first time. I stand by what I said above, but I do not believe dogs feel guilt, and if they mess a room they certainly don't feel bad about it hours later. They are probably picking up on you being upset. So I agree with 90% of your statement.


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

rousie said:


> Every puppy class iv ever attended , making your dog submit is one of the first things shown.


If a puppy class started by teaching me to "make my dog submit" I would take my puppy and get out of that class as soon as I could. This is coming from a person who does think some positive reinforcement training has gone too far, but there is no reason to alpha roll your puppy. Shake a can of pennies, squirt them with a spray bottle- maybe, if totally necessary and used as a proper correction. Puppy classes should be about building a good relationship with your dog not beating them down to the bottom of the pack. I am my puppies leader and I have never pinned/alpha rolled/scruff-ed her. I am rambling, but really just trying to say that being your dogs leader does not mean you have to "make them submit" in a physical way. Especially a chihuahua for gosh sakes- you don't think they already know we are physically larger and stronger than them?


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## Squirrelflight (Nov 17, 2011)

kimr said:


> Not true...My dogs prove this every day. I can't take them all 3 out on leash at once, so I take the little one first, since he has to go more often. When I bring him back in and unhook him he goes and waits patiently by the treat jar until I get back with the other 2. I can assure you that is much longer than 2-3 seconds.
> 
> You just don't reward bad behaviour, period. And if you think waiting 2-3 seconds is enough for your dog to distinguish between being wrong for growling at you and a distraction, I believe you're sorely mistaken.
> 
> ...


Your dog is waiting patiently because he has learned the routine of when he will get a treat. 

You cannot 'train' a dog to do something if the reward, clicker, marker word, or whatever is given more than 2-3 seconds after the correct action. 

So again.. it is not rewarding the behavior. The original behavior (growling) was ignored. A new behavior was requested (calling them out) That behavior was rewarded in my scenario.

But lets just say that a dog growled anytime someone reached into their crate. If you reach in and grab them each time they are likely to escalate and eventually bite you. 

However if you reach in and give them a treat every time they will stop growling at you. 

You have not rewarded a bad behavior and increased its frequency. You have changed the dogs emotional response to your reaching into the crate. Plain and simple. The dog will stop growling because your intrusion is bringing them good things. Whereas if you just grab them and pull them out you have not changed their feelings about your reaching into the crate. If you scold them you could even make that reaction worse.

I understand your opinion and I used to agree but the reality is the results I've had with these methods and working with my dogs in a more positive way has worked wonders. 

And I do not 'tolerate' my dogs growling at people either. I simply manage in a different manner. I use treats and attention to gain cooperation rather than move a dog that does not want to be moved. I prefer to change the situation and have the dog choose of his own accord to do what I want. If I see that one of mine are having a bad reaction to something I work to change how they feel about that event whether it be bedtime, company, outings, nail trimming or whatever. 

And I have 5 very well behaved happy little dogs too. 

As for explaining a dogs guilt hours later? Well that ones easy. People are wrongly assuming the dog is feeling guilty over its actions. It is not. The dog is simply reacting the emotions and body language of the owner. People like to put human motives to dogs actions. It doesnt work that way.


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## svdreamer (Feb 20, 2010)

Squirrelflight said:


> Your dog is waiting patiently because he has learned the routine of when he will get a treat.
> 
> You cannot 'train' a dog to do something if the reward, clicker, marker word, or whatever is given more than 2-3 seconds after the correct action.
> 
> ...


I 100% agree. I am not aggressive with my dogs at all, I use distraction to change their resistance. I need to keep a firm hand here with all my dogs and its working for me quite well. I have a few rescued that came from abusive homes, if I get them cornered and they are terrified they would growl at me. I am sure I never put them in that situation again, but if I need to grab them I will offer a treat to distract them. I am not rewarding the behavior but trying to teach them I am not scary and coming to me is a good thing. But to each their own, I use what works for me.


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## DKT113 (Nov 26, 2011)

Squirrelflight said:


> There seems to be some confusion on the treats .. A reward is only associated with the behavior if it is received in about 2-3 seconds of the event.


I don't have any confusion about the treat, under the circumstances the OP described I personally wouldn't break out the treats. I too would have immediately removed the pup from his brother's crate and given a stern Be Nice!,deposited him in his xpen for a few minutes and then tuck the little joker into bed as I normally do.

The treat thing thing as a redirection I look at like this. People crate training are always advised not to place the dog in the crate as a punishment after said pup has misbehaved as they will associate the crate as being negative. If a person believes that and follows that logic, that same logic applies to treat dispensing in this situation.


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## MiniGrace (Oct 31, 2011)

In this situation I would have gone ahead and gently removed the pup from the crate, held him up in front of me and said "no" and then stared at him. Once he stopped struggling and looked away then I would have put him in his crate. To me when a pup looks away from a direct stare they are saying they understand what they just did is not acceptable. I would not offer a treat at this time BUT in the future if both dogs ran into the same crate, I would not reach in to take the pup out. Mine sometimes both run into the same ex pen at night, I simply laugh and back up a few steps. The pup that's in the wrong pen invariably comes out and I shut the door. No confrontation necessary but I do give mine a treat when I put them in their pen.


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## rousie (Dec 15, 2011)

Thats EXACTLY how I feel. If I hand out treats surly he's going to think 'hmmm if I hop in my brothers crate I'll get a great! And if I Start growling I might get more!!' 
No way. It's the same as a previous comment on this thread that mentioned a popcorn party at bedtime in regards to her kids, I agree with what she said too. My daughter was an hour late home tonight and I'm not going to say 'hi darlin' and hand her a $10 note! She now has to be home an hour earlier the next time she goes out. For the people who have said I was too harsh on my Chi, tonight he went to get in his brothers crate again and I just changed my tone and said ' BRAX!! YOUR BED' and amazingly he got straight in it. THEN he was rewarded with a treat and a happy tone 'good mum baby!' he knew I was impressed.


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## rousie (Dec 15, 2011)

I have actually read somewhere that staring at them untill they look away is also telling them your the boss . Can I ask how you guys got your chi's to come to you when called? I'm having a bit of trouble when they are outside playing, they have been known to just ignore me untill I have to go and physically pick them up. I don't know if I should be doing that but when they are running around together they are oblivious to me


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## rousie (Dec 15, 2011)

THANKYOU!!! Xxxxxx


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## DKT113 (Nov 26, 2011)

rousie said:


> Can I ask how you guys got your chi's to come to you when called? I'm having a bit of trouble when they are outside playing, they have been known to just ignore me untill I have to go and physically pick them up. I don't know if I should be doing that but when they are running around together they are oblivious to me


We have just gotten to ^ here. She has figured out it's a blast to ignore the call and zip around like a firecracker. At some point last week in the yard I called her, she was chasing the cat (they are best friends) and she ignored me & the problem seems to be growing. I went and collected her to get her in, but I know I dropped the ball as she now seems oblivious when she is outside. So now even with the huge amount of yard fenced in I am taking her out on the lead, unless we are going outside to run for a bit then she is free willy, but I need to figure out how to reconnect with her to come when called as that's one of the most vital skills to have in the save your bacon hat of tricks.


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## svdreamer (Feb 20, 2010)

I teach to come with a retractable lead and a pocketful of treats. I let the dog run about and at random times, I call them to come. If they ignore me, I reel them in until they at at my feet AND let me pet them (this is good for the skittish ones that won't let me pick them up unless I am sitting down), then I treat. Gonzo learned within an hour and to this day, he comes when he is called. I just started with Pepper and have to teach Babaushka next. The rest come when they are called all the time, just takes FOREVER with Mr. Slowpoke, Reggie.


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## rousie (Dec 15, 2011)

It's raining here this morning and I got up at 6 to let the dynamic duo out for the toilet AND guess what ?? Casper thought it would be a better idea to do his wee on the darn deck rather than toddle off and go on the grass like he has/does every other rainy day... OMG!! 
AND to make it even more interesting we are puppy sitting our friends 11 week old miniature Australian X Papilion untill Tuesday SO THREE puppies on a rainy day ... Perhaps if I close the blinds and pop them in their crates they will think its sleep time? Lol


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