# Need a Kibble Recommendation



## Jayar (Feb 6, 2012)

Hi Chi Peeps!

I am looking for a very specific kibble recommendation. It has to meet ALL of the following criteria (I can find lots of foods that meet part of the list, looking for the whole list in this question. Thanks!) 

1) Grain Free
2) Tiny Kibble - Very, very tiny.
3) No Lamb - Allergies.
4) High Fat - Higher the better! Looking for very calorie-dense.

I know about (and use) ZiwiPeak, and it fits the list but isn't a kibble. I need it to be kibble for a very specific purpose. I recently tried Acana Small Breed Puppy which fits points 2-4 (very nice tiny kibble size!) but isn't grain free.

I hear about Fromm? Do people here feed that? Or Orijen Puppy? How is the kibble size with that?

Thanks in advance!


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

You might consider Stella and Chewys or the new Orijen freeze dried. I know they aren't kibble, but freeze dried is easy... just take out of the bag and feed (or add water if you want). 

Is there a reason you need it to be kibble?


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

I've been feeding from for a few years, they have 5 grain free varieties. I have 4 chis, 1 who is super picky and has allergies and all 4 love the fromm. I cannot say enough good things about it!

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## Jayar (Feb 6, 2012)

Zorana, how is the kibble size for the Fromm grain free? I am looking for the smallest kibble possible.

Tracy, freeze dried is out for the same reason ZiwiPeak isn't working for us. Yes the reason is specifically for water retrieve work. We are using a floating treat pouch but it isn't 100% waterproof so ANYTHING that isn't kibble or hot dog turns to soup by the end of the session. In the lake it is manageable but in pools, ewww. Kibble, on the other hand, works great but the Acana/Orijen kibbles our big dogs eat are huge and Epic's meal is literally maybe 2 dozen of them which makes for very short sessions and no opportunity to jackpot for excellent work. 

So I have her on the Acana Small Breed Puppy now for the water work which is great EXCEPT the formula has oats so is so grainy and I am just not used to feeding so much filler to this little dog who eats raw/Ziwi/freeze dried and the poop sucks! 

ETA: The high fat is a necessity because of all the swimming she's dropping weight pretty bad. Can't afford to waste meals on low-density food for her. She has a fast metabolism anyway, but put her in water 2 times a day 3-4 days a week and she is getting a bit ribby even with extra food.


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## Onyx (Nov 28, 2011)

Loads of people here feed Fromm and are very happy with it. I've used it in the past but I personally didn't like it due to the carb content being too high for my liking. Plus Onyx didn't like it. The kibble size is very small though.

I love Orijen and so does Onyx. The kibble size has changed since when I very first fed it and it is definitely smaller. I wouldn't call the kibble "tiny" though. I've never had any problems with it being too big.

Nature's Variety Instinct is grain free, has itty bitty kibble, has formulas without lamb, and I'm not sure what the fat percentages are.

Edit: Instinct kibble has formulas with fat at around 20-22%


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

Zorana1125 said:


> I've been feeding from for a few years, they have 5 grain free varieties. I have 4 chis, 1 who is super picky and has allergies and all 4 love the fromm. I cannot say enough good things about it!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Fromm is pretty small. It's smaller than acana and instinct. When mimi and leo were babies they had no problems eating it. 

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## Jayar (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks Marie! I will look into those. Maybe a small bag of Orijen Puppy is in order to try, if the kibble size has changed since 5-6 years ago. Before, when feeding it to big dogs, I remember it was huge. Our 2 big dogs eat Acana now (same company as Orijen) and it is great for them but huge kibbles for Epic.

The Nature's Variety kibble may make a nice option to try if Orijen is still too big. Ideal fat percentage maybe around 24-25% so that's pretty close if I pick the right formula.


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## Jayar (Feb 6, 2012)

Hmm... The Fromm recipes look good but the fat content is a bit low. Darn it.


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## Jayar (Feb 6, 2012)

What about Innova Evo? Are people still trusting that after the buy out?

ETA: Wait, nevermind, too many recalls on that food recently.


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## Onyx (Nov 28, 2011)

Jayar said:


> Thanks Marie! I will look into those. Maybe a small bag of Orijen Puppy is in order to try, if the kibble size has changed since 5-6 years ago. Before, when feeding it to big dogs, I remember it was huge. Our 2 big dogs eat Acana now (same company as Orijen) and it is great for them but huge kibbles for Epic.
> 
> The Nature's Variety kibble may make a nice option to try if Orijen is still too big. Ideal fat percentage maybe around 24-25% so that's pretty close if I pick the right formula.


Yea when I first fed Orijen, they were large ovals. Now they are more compact circles. Still not tiny, but my Chi has no problems eating them. They don't seem super hard either, like when Onyx chews them there's not a lot of loud crunching sounds lol.

For Nature's Variety, the Chicken formula is the one with 22% fat.

As for Evo, I could get past the company change but the amount of recalls is a bit ridiculous UGH another good kibble gone.


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## Jayar (Feb 6, 2012)

Okay, I am just putting this out there... But what about using a Cat Food?

Acana Pacifica (which is a food we love for our big dogs) seems to have a Cat Food that is basically a similar ingredient list and only 2% higher protein (35% vs 33%) and of course includes Taurine. Is there any real, justified reason this can't be fed to a dog?

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Boneless salmon, salmon meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, whitefish meal*, sweet potatoes, chicken fat, sun-cured alfalfa, boneless herring, boneless flounder, natural fish flavors, pumpkin, turnip greens, spinach, tomatoes, carrots, apples, organic kelp, cranberries, blueberries, juniper berries, black currants, chicory root, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, lavender flowers, summer savory, rosemary.

* ACANA’s whitefish meal contains wild-caught flounder, halibut, and cod.

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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

It is generally fine to feed cat foods to dogs but not the other way round because of cats higher taurine requirement.


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## None505 (Jan 10, 2013)

Evo has really small kibbles and is grain free and the Turkey & Chicken Formula Small Bites does not have lamb in it. My guys get the Evo Red Meat Formula Small Bites as their main kibble and they are doing great on it.


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

I think Evo used to be a great food but then p and g bought them out and I'm pretty sure the ingredients are not high quality anymore. I know a lot of people who stopped feeding after they were bought out. 

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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

I know you said there weren't enough calories in Fromm, but we feed it and it is absolutely wonderful. It's never had a recall. And I completely trust them. Plus the kibble is very small. Definitely the smallest I've ever seen. Honestly, I wouldn't consider too much other than Fromm, Orijen, or Acana personally. I wouldn't feed any diamond foods because of the recalls. Or blue buffalo, I've heard about too many dogs having kidney problems on it. I don't think Evo is as good as it was, but I don't really know a ton about them. 


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## Evelyn (Oct 14, 2012)

I use Fromm, game bird, no grain.


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## tenley (Oct 17, 2013)

I use Fromm Family as well, my chi loves it and I love the all natural ingredients 


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## Jayar (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks, guys! We're going to look at the Fromm (despite the lower calories) and also take another look at the Orijen Puppy because if the kibbles are small enough to work for us, that food probably has the best balance of what we're looking for for our purposes. You've all been a huge help!


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

There are grain free Acana varieties as well, the Regionals range. I dont know about kibble size (I don't feed kibble) but they are definitely worth looking into. Lots of members here really rave about the grain free Fromm as well. If the calories are lower, just feed more. I would feed an extra meal or two if I had a dog that was working hard and needed to generate heat.


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## Jayar (Feb 6, 2012)

Acana kibbles are too large. We have it (Pacifica) for the big dogs. Epic can eat the food just fine. She doesn't choke, but she won't chew, and like I said it takes maybe 12 of the huge kibbles to make her meal up and that isn't a whole lot of training we can get done for 12 kibbles. 

Not a fan of increasing meal frequency at all - too much poop! Epic is housebroken. Not pad trained, so I won't do anything that will ruin our 2x per day like clockwork outing schedule. That includes feeding a really "thirst inducing" food that makes her want to drink all day. Right now she drinks when she eats, and that's it. It's wonderful! LOL

Generally she eats raw or ZiwiPeak at home. Or human food. she had a whole week after Thanksgiving where she ate leftover turkey, peas, and potato. I think she thought she died and went to heaven. The kibble is strictly for training in the water, where we need it to stay intact when wet.


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## Evelyn (Oct 14, 2012)

with Fromm, for a puppy to just add a little more kibble, to make up the extra calories a puppy needs.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

If your dog is losing weight, then it needs more food. A few extra poos are a small price to pay IMO. Maybe increase her raw and Ziwi so the training treats don't have to be as calorie dense.


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## Jayar (Feb 6, 2012)

If a dog is losing weight, it (my dog is a she ;-)) certainly needs more CALORIES, but not necessarily more (volume of) food. I have no issue increasing her calories, which is what I try to do by choosing the most calorie-dense food possible for all meals, including her training meals (which make up anywhere from 50-100% of her food on a given day.)

I feel that it is reasonable of me to wish to avoid less calorie dense foods in Epic's diet. It is rather flippant to suggest I have any sort of resistance toward caring for my dog properly because of "a few extra poos". This may not be how you intended your comment, but it is how it came across.

ETA: Of COURSE if she needs more food, she'll get it. That should go without saying. But it doesn't make financial or functional sense not to try and offer her the most calorie-dense options possible. That's all I'm trying to do here. In a tiny performance dog, this sort of stuff does matter. I realize that most folks here don't have performance dogs, and Epic being part Terrier of some nature makes her predisposed to higher metabolism than a lot of Chihuahuas. It all adds a level of complexity to the discussion, I suppose.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Not my intention at all. Hence the use of the word 'it' not 'she', it was a general comment not aimed at you in particular. You seem to be having difficulty finding a calorie dense kibble that fits the bill, i was trying to offer a helpful suggestion that you will get the same amount of calories by feeding more of the less calorie dense food. Nothing flippant in my reply.


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## Jayar (Feb 6, 2012)

Okay, I understand. 

Really life would just be easier if Acana offered their Pacifica in a Small Dog version. LOL


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## Jayar (Feb 6, 2012)

I have been using the Acana Small Breed Puppy for about a week now. I will use the little bag up, but it is pretty horrible for volume of poop. Not to mention, Epic has been extremely overactive, insatiably hungry, and very unfocused in her training. My husband noticed it today, that she has been doing silly things she never usually does like whining and chewing and nipping. She is also very short tempered with the other two dogs (who, thankfully, are very tolerant!)

I think it may be the oats in the Acana. I also wonder, now, if this is why Epic's owner abandoned her with us. Long story short, she was supposed to be a long-term board for a student going back to school that posted an ad online, but the girl dropped her off and subsequently disappeared. She had some behavioural issues and housebreaking issues but we got through them quickly. I tried to put her back with her owner, but got no response. I did not even connect that we also switched her to grain-free immediately. This week, she's acting a LOT like the dog that was dumped on us. Poor thing.

It would be hard for Fromm to be worse than this!


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I would definitely try the Fromm, so many people here swear by it (it isn't available in the UK in the grain free options so I have no first-hand experience)
It is really interesting that you are seeing such marked changes in her behaviour since re-introducing grain, please keep us updated once you switch her back to grain free. It certainly makes me wonder if just oats affect her this strongly, what other grains would do to her system. I have seen so many 'problem dogs' turn into lovely pets once fed a species appropriate diet. You are probably spot-on with why her previous owner abandoned her. My male Chi came to us at 4.5 months old, we are his 4th home. He was being fed Bakers, which is a very popular but very low quality dry food here, cereal based, heavily processed and full of artificial additives. We switched him straight to raw, and I have never seen a trace of the nightmare hyper puppy that his previous two owners couldn't handle. He has always been a really mellow and easy going boy, I am certain it was just the food.
If only everybody put as much thought into what they feed their dog as you clearly do.


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## Jayar (Feb 6, 2012)

I absolutely will keep you posted!

Epic was dropped off with a half a bag of Pedigree, which contains corn and wheat. She was supposed to stay with us for 4 months, so DH suggested we switch her to something more appropriate, since she was tiny and cheap to feed anyway. He didn't want to buy Pedigree for her while feeding our dogs good food! He joked that it was because he didn't want our dogs to accidentally get any! 

The first week, I noticed of course her housebreaking issues and she was a terrible crate peer and screamer. She was also very aggressive and had no bite inhibition. DH was glad she was not our dog! My lord, was she ever miserable. I admit, I dreaded the next 4 months...

Within a month or so she was completely different. She was crate trained fully, and mellowed out a lot. I gave her an outlet for her energy too (Agility) and the aggression just disappeared. I attributed her better behavior to the outlet, but today she still has that outlet and she is acting like a nut - the only thing changed was the addition of a food with grain. So I think now it may have been more the food.

By the end of the first month, DH and I were both pretty happy her owner had disappeared.


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## Jayar (Feb 6, 2012)

Wicket Pixie:

FYI... Epic was completely grain free today (no other changes whatsoever from the last unbearable week or so) and for the first time in that long, she settled on my lap for a sleep while we watched TV. Last night she was jumping on our faces, biting our hands, grabbing the blankets, and pacing around. So, yeah, from one day to the next.

Grains are NOT for her! LOL


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## KayC (May 3, 2005)

I am a fan of Fromm Grain Free. I have fed Orijen and ZP in the past. But now I feed Fromm. I am very happy with it. The size is perfect for our little ones. And my pups love it.


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