# Bit worried, don't think this is normal



## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

Further to my previous post here ->

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/showthread.php?t=53949

I've done what everyone suggested and just put the harness on her and left her. 

But this morning there was poop in her room when there never really is and she just vomited all over my bed and floor.

I know she's scared but i just didn't expect this, she is just shaking and shaking, she won't walk, she won't eat, she won't go outside to do the toilet.

We are trying to feed her, give her cuddles and act like everything is fine and it's just a little upsetting to see her this way.

We've been trying to get her to wear a harness since she was 12 weeks old and she's just turned one but this is the first time we've left it on past 12 hours. I hope there is going to be an end to this 

Should i take it off if she is being sick?


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## pinkglitterybunny (Jul 26, 2008)

have you taken her out with it on?? i would have thought all the excitement of a walk might have taken her mind off the harness?? Precious wouldnt walk when she was a pup but we just kept taking her around the block she soon got the hang of it, 

I hope you find a solution soon cant be nice for you or her being sick


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## Terri (Aug 21, 2009)

Were the people looking after her trying a harness on her too?
Cause she was a way for a big chunk of time so maybe they didnt really try that much aswell.
My Daisy didnt know what it was cause she went out a back garden to do her business before coming to me, but she was ok when i started with it here.

She is not long home with you guys so maybe it's all overwhelming for her or she thinks she is leaving for good when you put it on?

My Darla hated the harness and going walks for a wee while she would just freeze, but she came round eventually and loves to go walks now.
It just took time and a lot of patience.
I would let her walk around the livingroom with it on and even though she just went into her bed looking all sad, i would keep it on, but not for ages.
Then would try again later.
She was never sick mind you.
Sounds like Bella is very stressed, so may need real baby steps with this.
If you do put it on her, act normally, but lots of praise to start.
Ignore her, then take it off if she is quiet, but obviously only have it on for very short periods of time.
Just dont make a big deal of her getting it on.
Hope she is ok bless her. x


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

pinkglitterybunny said:


> have you taken her out with it on?? i would have thought all the excitement of a walk might have taken her mind off the harness?? Precious wouldnt walk when she was a pup but we just kept taking her around the block she soon got the hang of it,
> 
> I hope you find a solution soon cant be nice for you or her being sick


She walks fine on a lead/collar, she LOVES walks .

Yes we've been trying to get her to walk outside on a harness on and off since she was 12 weeks so 9 months on and off. She is 1 year old now.

This last month we've taken her out for 3 weeks straight in the harness and she cries and refuses to move ..as soon as the collar goes on she perks up, happy, walks, eats etc.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

Terri said:


> Were the people looking after her trying a harness on her too?
> Cause she was a way for a big chunk of time so maybe they didnt really try that much aswell.
> Plus she is not long home with you guys so maybe it's all overwhelming for her or she thinks she is leaving for good when you put it on?
> 
> ...



No the people who looked after her for 16 weeks were pretty crap and didn't give us feedback, feed her the food we wanted or put her in her harness regularly.

It's just hard because i'm getting contradicting advice.

Some people say put her in the harness and just leave her till she finds a way to deal with it whether that is days or weeks. other people say do it in small sessions and we've been doing small sessions for 3/4 weeks and not gotten anywhere at ALL, i mean no improvement so i thought we'd try what alot of people suggested on the previous post like the vets information about dogs with bandages and just leave it on her to get used to it.

I can't believe how worked up she's getting, i feel so sad i can't explain it to her.


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## Terri (Aug 21, 2009)

Bellatrix said:


> She walks fine on a lead/collar, she LOVES walks .
> 
> Yes we've been trying to get her to walk outside on a harness on and off since she was 12 weeks so 9 months on and off. She is 1 year old now.
> 
> This last month we've taken her out for 3 weeks straight in the harness and she cries and refuses to move ..as soon as the collar goes on she perks up, happy, walks, eats etc.


Ah is see, well she just hates harnesses then. lol
I would be like you and want her to walk with a harness, but she may never like it.
Hopefully she will come round. x


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

Terri said:


> Ah is see, well she just hates harnesses then. lol
> I would be like you and want her to walk with a harness, but she may never like it.
> Hopefully she will come round. x


pretty much everyone we've asked who has dogs keeps reassuring us if we persevere she will grow to like it ..but it's really hard to hold onto that fairh when she is actually being sick . 

It's for safety reasons i want her to walk on harnesses, not for how it looks.


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## cprcheetah (May 4, 2009)

What about putting the harness on and giving her lots of yummy treats that she loves when she's wearing it and as you put it on?  Sebastian HATED wearing a harness at first, wouldn't move etc, so I would show him the harness and give him a treat (I used Natural Balance Food Rolls which were his favorite) then tell him what a good boy he was, then slip one leg in and another treat and told him a good boy, then another treat and good boy etc. Gradually I let him wear it for a while around the house and would coax him to move with it on with treats.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

cprcheetah said:


> What about putting the harness on and giving her lots of yummy treats that she loves when she's wearing it and as you put it on? Sebastian HATED wearing a harness at first, wouldn't move etc, so I would show him the harness and give him a treat (I used Natural Balance Food Rolls which were his favorite) then tell him what a good boy he was, then slip one leg in and another treat and told him a good boy, then another treat and good boy etc. Gradually I let him wear it for a while around the house and would coax him to move with it on with treats.


We have definitely tried that, endlessly . She gets treats for it going on, we've tried treats to get her to walk in it. I've tried every type of coaxing, affection, everything. She was away from us for 16 weeks so we tried this process from 12 weeks to 8 months and then from 11 months to 12 months and we have had no improvement.

We've tried to make sure she knows it's a good thing and associates it with good things but she physically shakes like she can't breathe and is making herself sick now erg


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

I think you need to work out what exactly is bothering her?? I know is hard and you feel bad for her (probably more than most would) easier said than done but try not to. 
Are you sure there's nothing wrong with her that could make her act like this like she's not sick or anything??

Personally I'd go down the tough love route and let her get on with it. Peeing pooing chucking up will just be the motions she goes through to calm down. Something will click and shell get over it. 

She may just be confused with everything I dunno but the poor baby probably thought you and your bloke weren't coming back did stuff with the crappy people then the bf went and saw her and left again then you bought her home I'm worn out just thinking about it!! I'd just let her get on with it (easy for me to say I know) and give her no choice let her strop and do not take it off or go home tip she behaves. 

I feel for you it must be awkward coz you don't know what she's use to and those 4 months seem to have made a difference.


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## woodard2009 (Aug 4, 2010)

I would watch & see if the she stops acting sick. If she doesn't take the harness off & I wouldn't let her sleep in the harness (very uncomfortable). You can try putting the harness on for a little while each day increasing the time she has it on a little at a time. When you take the harness off, put it in her bed with her and tell her "this is Bellatrix's, this is yours." You could take her to the park or walk up the block with it on! She is deathly afraid of it. You have to show her that it's hers & it's o.k. Most dogs love their collars. Does she wear a collar? How does she feel about her collar? It's going to take time. She just needs plenty of reassurance.


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

What about getting " DAP,"collar, plug in , or they do a spray,it calms them down.I spray the cats bed the night before she goes to the cattery as she is always sick in the car.It works,if i forget to use it she's sick after 10 seconds car journey.At least then she would be calmer when you put the harness on.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

Daisydoo said:


> I think you need to work out what exactly is bothering her?? I know is hard and you feel bad for her (probably more than most would) easier said than done but try not to.
> Are you sure there's nothing wrong with her that could make her act like this like she's not sick or anything??
> 
> Personally I'd go down the tough love route and let her get on with it. Peeing pooing chucking up will just be the motions she goes through to calm down. Something will click and shell get over it.
> ...



The 4 months haven't actually made any difference, this is a problem we had before we left her in Holland . We only tried it occasionally then so she never got to the point of being sick.

We've been surprised by just how little has changed in her now she's back, she's almost exactly the same, except she climbs stairs now hehe. She loves the same toys, cuddles the same, eats in the same way ..and hates her harness just the same.

She has been to the vets since she came back 4 weeks ago and has been in perfect health, she's even gained 50 grams since she got back with us .

I called Kye (my fiances) mother who has done dog training & had dogs her entire life and she told me the tough love route again is the best.

She told me to carry on, she said kids will make themselves sick to get what they want and to stick with it ..but its so not easy seeing her being sick.

What bothers her is the instant the harness is on, the instant its off she's a fine, confident, happy dog.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

woodard2009 said:


> I would watch & see if the she stops acting sick. If she doesn't take the harness off & I wouldn't let her sleep in the harness (very uncomfortable). You can try putting the harness on for a little while each day increasing the time she has it on a little at a time. When you take the harness off, put it in her bed with her and tell her "this is Bellatrix's, this is yours." You could take her to the park or walk up the block with it on! She is deathly afraid of it. You have to show her that it's hers & it's o.k. Most dogs love their collars. Does she wear a collar? How does she feel about her collar? It's going to take time. She just needs plenty of reassurance.


She loves her collar yes. She won't walk to the park or around the block, she just won't walk in the harness . We've tried that, taking ehr out somewhere exciting doesn't change her response.

I think we are going to tough love route and leaving it on her all day, this seems to be the concensus of most people and dog trainers we know  but it's hard. We've been trying the build up approach of her wearing it longer periods for so long, since she was 12 weeks old so we have to try this now.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

michele said:


> What about getting " DAP,"collar, plug in , or they do a spray,it calms them down.I spray the cats bed the night before she goes to the cattery as she is always sick in the car.It works,if i forget to use it she's sick after 10 seconds car journey.At least then she would be calmer when you put the harness on.



Has anyone tried the collar? It says max diamater 14 inches but she wears a 7 inch collar so worried it would be HUGE.

I think the spray might be best, i will definitely order one, just need to decide which?


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

OK so here is what I think. She is *GETTING* what she wants. And you can't give in. If her behavior is ridiculous, its OK to ignore it. 

Worst comes to worst, if she still refuses to eat after 2 days, take the harness of of her, feed her, put it back on. 

I think of it the same way I think of food for dogs -- changing just because they seem to not like something anymore makes them a picky eater. 

Walking on a harness is sooo much safer for her and I know you know that so I say this is one battle you should try pretty hard to win.

You can buy those harnesses that Daisydoo posted at http://www.parkavenuedogs.com made to her size, but tehy are also easy to make if you have a sewing machine (we don't).


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

Bellatrix said:


> Has anyone tried the collar? It says max diamater 14 inches but she wears a 7 inch collar so worried it would be HUGE.
> 
> I think the spray might be best, i will definitely order one, just need to decide which?


Try the spray on her bed,as the plug in takes a while to work,the collar would be a no no then


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

flippedstars said:


> OK so here is what I think. She is *GETTING* what she wants. And you can't give in. If her behavior is ridiculous, its OK to ignore it.
> 
> Worst comes to worst, if she still refuses to eat after 2 days, take the harness of of her, feed her, put it back on.
> 
> ...


I've ordered one of those harnesses yesterday from park avenue dogs, the polka dot one with her name on it .

I actally agree with you wholeheartedly, harness is alot safer by far and that was brought home to us last weekend when she was almost attacked because i couldn't pull her away quickly enough in a collar, it's just hard to watch and i know i need to be stronger. 

Sorry  for finding this hard, it's just our reason for wanting the harness is motivated by what happened with the dog and for her safety. I know a few seconds different between having to pull her away gently with a collar or quicker with a harness could make a difference and i'd never want to hurt her neck, ever.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

michele said:


> Try the spray on her bed,as the plug in takes a while to work,the collar would be a no no then


Thank you, its ordered now


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Bellatrix said:


> The 4 months haven't actually made any difference, this is a problem we had before we left her in Holland . We only tried it occasionally then so she never got to the point of being sick.
> 
> We've been surprised by just how little has changed in her now she's back, she's almost exactly the same, except she climbs stairs now hehe. She loves the same toys, cuddles the same, eats in the same way ..and hates her harness just the same.
> 
> ...


I agree with the mother in law and yes kids do it mine still does sometimes. Just a thought how about rescue remedy??

Has she ever had a bad experience with one even as a baby?? I think she's just use to acting like it now and eels herself up


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

I've never tried rescue remedy but i just ordered the DAP dog pheromone so if that doesn't work ill try rescue remedy next 

When we had her in Holland we tried to take her out in her harness but it was winter, the lake was frozen by our house for 3 months, minus temp all the time so we think she associates the harness with being miserable and cold.


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## Guess (Sep 23, 2009)

Not sure of it's been suggested or tried or not. But have you tried putting the harness on her then walking her on her collar?


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

Guess said:


> Not sure of it's been suggested or tried or not. But have you tried putting the harness on her then walking her on her collar?


I don't think it's been suggested but we tried it and there was no difference. We even tried walking her in a safe place off lead so she just had to walk on her own but she wouldn't move and when she did move a few steps she tried to run home arghh lol.


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## Guess (Sep 23, 2009)

Grrrr!!! She certainly is bull headed!!! I wish I could help, but i've only just been able to walk my baby girl on leash in the past two months - LOL. I'm barely any use to myself!

I hope she gets over her phobia soon though, poor gal


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

Thank you and YES stubborn is not even the word. We just want her to be happy and safe 

Bella was 8 months till she walked properly on a leash with a collar so she can be very stubborn. She's 12 months now and this is time to pursue the harness, least she's walking on a collar , thats something.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

She accepted some food while wearing her harness tonight, that's good. I had to put the bowl down by her, she wouldn't go over to it but it was good to at least see her doing something like eating and drinking.


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

Bellatrix said:


> ....this is the first time we've left it on past 12 hours. .....


Well, here is my take on the situation--just my own personal opinion, not a criticism...
I would never leave a harness on my dogs in the house. There is no need 
and certainly not for 12 hours! Is there a reason you want her to wear it
in the house? If I want my dogs to do something, I let them relate it to a 
happy experience. It must be fun, joyful, show some positive energy... Bella
has had such a trauma so far with the harness, I would let it go and use the
collar for a month or so. When you begin again with harness, get some help/
advice from a professional trainer. I would hate to see this go on for a lifetime. 
Good luck with your little girl. I hope things improve very soon


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

flippedstars said:


> OK so here is what I think. She is *GETTING* what she wants. And you can't give in. If her behavior is ridiculous, its OK to ignore it.
> 
> Worst comes to worst, if she still refuses to eat after 2 days, take the harness of of her, feed her, put it back on.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree with Kristi here. She has been getting her way (the harness being taken off) so she knows if she keeps acting up it'll come off. Your best bet is to just let her be. Ignore her behavior. She could be sensing your stress which is adding to hers. I'd just go about your day & not pay any attention to her until she comes to you for attention. She is sure to come around & forget she's even wearing the harness.

We had to do that with Maribelle & even had to attach the leash to her harness in order to get her used to being walked. My pups never wear their harnesses in the house...but I do think in order for her to get used to it it'll be the best way. After a while...she'll forget it's even on.  Just try not to make a big deal of it or fuss at her. I am sure after a couple days she'll forget there is even anything there....


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

Jerry'sMom said:


> I would never leave a harness on my dogs in the house. There is no need
> and certainly not for 12 hours! Is there a reason you want her to wear it
> in the house?
> 
> ...



if you read through the whole 2 threads you will see that we started off for the first 8 months of her life trying to get her to walk in it only outside the occasional time in the house, making it nothing but a positive experience and we got nowhere.

You asked why we want it on in the house -> If you read through the entire 2 threads you will see we are following the advice of the majority, we have spoken to Kye's Mum who has trained dogs her entire life and there was a vets assistants opinions ...everyone says leave it on her till she gets used to it so that means her wearing it in the house. 

We have tried your approach so we are trying theirs now  as every dog is different and we haven't gotten anywhere so far.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

MChis said:


> I absolutely agree with Kristi here. She has been getting her way (the harness being taken off) so she knows if she keeps acting up it'll come off. Your best bet is to just let her be. Ignore her behavior. She could be sensing your stress which is adding to hers. I'd just go about your day & not pay any attention to her until she comes to you for attention. She is sure to come around & forget she's even wearing the harness.
> 
> We had to do that with Maribelle & even had to attach the leash to her harness in order to get her used to being walked. My pups never wear their harnesses in the house...but I do think in order for her to get used to it it'll be the best way. After a while...she'll forget it's even on.  Just try not to make a big deal of it or fuss at her. I am sure after a couple days she'll forget there is even anything there....


Thanks, it does help to hear other dogs like maribelle have had problems too. 

I agree once trained theres no need in the house but for now it's going to have to be on in the house so she can be exposed to it long enough and like you said fingers crossed forget its on . I mean she's a year now, we have been trying on and off for a long time and she's clearly learnt having a strop gets the harness taken off so we have to be tough. its hard though


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## foggy (Oct 12, 2009)

My feeling is the same as Therese's. I think it's best at this point to stop using the harness for a bit and then slowly re-introduce it. Very slowly and associate it in positive ways, praise and treats. Any time the experience starts to become negative, I personally think it's best to withdraw and try to introduce it more slowly. I read the entire thread, and I know everyone is saying just keep it on her, but I think it's just going to cause her more frustration with it. Just my personal opinion. I also personally would not leave her wearing it in the house. Good luck, hon.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

foggy said:


> My feeling is the same as Therese's. I think it's best at this point to stop using the harness for a bit and then slowly re-introduce it. Very slowly and associate it in positive ways, praise and treats. Any time the experience starts to become negative, I personally think it's best to withdraw and try to introduce it more slowly. Just my personal opinion. I also would not leave her wearing it in the house at all. Good luck, hon.


Unfortunately if we had followed that thinking when we first got her though when she whined at night etc she'd have done nothing but learn she could get her own way by whining. She wanted to sleep with us, she whined alot and we ignored it, now she's great and well trained to go to sleep downstairs at night.

We follow 100% positive clicker training, she is a very well adjusted, happy dog  but on this i really believe the people who are saying she is being stubborn are right.

I think i explained earlier that we tried to introduce it slowly between the ages of 12 weeks and 8 months with absolutely NO success, treats, patience, i mean everything.

of course we wouldn't jump to this solution of making her wear it all the time if we hadn't absolutely exhausted every other possibility, if you read through you'll see we tried that approach .


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

foggy said:


> My feeling is the same as Therese's. I think it's best at this point to stop using the harness for a bit and then slowly re-introduce it. Very slowly and associate it in positive ways, praise and treats. Any time the experience starts to become negative, I personally think it's best to withdraw and try to introduce it more slowly. I read the entire thread, and I know everyone is saying just keep it on her, but I think it's just going to cause her more frustration with it. Just my personal opinion. I also personally would not leave her wearing it in the house. Good luck, hon.


we are of the same mind... thanks!


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

Bellatrix said:


> i...we haven't gotten anywhere so far.


that's why I offered you a refreshed approach to the situation. If what you
are doing is not working--and *you *say it isn't, it's time to try a new method.
12 hours is excessive. Yes, putting it on her and making her wear it for, say,
20 minute sessions throughout the day is reasonable... But 12 hours is an 
ordeal. You may get her to do it but at what cost? It may break her spirit


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

I think it's very easy to judge and think ..we must have not tried the positive approach you are both refferring to ..it's easy to think we just have no patience but i've told you in great detail how we've tried every positive approach available  since she was 12 weeks.

We were soo pro active about this issue we had to cut down a kitten harness at 12 weeks old because we were so committed to her being ok in a harness and a collar which is way more than alot of people do so early, we started with treats, praise, everything. I'm trying to explain that we have done exactly what you said to do , it didn't work.

We can't keep re-trying the same approach over and over for another year with it not working.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

Jerry'sMom said:


> that's why I offered you a refreshed approach to the situation. If what you
> are doing is not working--and *you *say it isn't, it's time to try a new method.
> 12 hours is excessive. Yes, putting it on her and making her wear it for, say,
> 20 minute sessions throughout the day is reasonable... But 12 hours is an
> ordeal. You may get her to do it but at what cost? It may break her spirit


Did you read what the vets assistant said, that when a dog has a bandage on they think they can't move and they just need time to figure out they can .

12 hours seems excessive to you but not to other people and not to other trainers.

I did not say this approach isn't working, i said it isn't working so far and asking what other people think because its upsetting ..asking if they think i should carry on and 99% of the people think tough love is the way to go so i am going to persevere... but you're basically telling me the same approach I've already told you we've been trying for a year  and then saying mean things like we'll break her spirit just because what I'm doing doesn't match what you'd do.

You're saying what we are doing is unreasonable and that is kinda offensive. 

it's fine if you say for your dog but every dog is different and alot of people advocate this approach.


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## MisStingerRN (May 16, 2010)

Couldn't agree with Paula and Therese more! You are asking for advise and that is what you are getting. Sorry if that offends you.


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## HollieC (Dec 29, 2009)

Why don't you try a DAP collar or spray to calm her down so she does not get so distressed by the harness. Then you could practice the "tough love" approach of just leaving the harness on her for a few hours. but it not be so "tough" on her and get her so upset
. X


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

I meant to ask before... Have you asked your Vet about this? Since she vomits, could
the pressure of the harness in the chest/stomach area be causing her a problem? You
may want to rule out anything physical that could be going on with her.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

HollieC said:


> Why don't you try a DAP collar or spray to calm her down so she does not get so distressed by the harness. Then you could practice the "tough love" approach of just leaving the harness on her for a few hours. but it not be so "tough" on her and get her so upset
> . X


It's already ordered , we got the DAP spray. I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread??


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

Jerry'sMom said:


> I meant to ask before... Have you asked your Vet about this? Since she vomits, could
> the pressure of the harness in the chest/stomach area be causing her a problem? You
> may want to rule out anything physical that could be going on with her.


The harness is very loose on her, you can slide a finger inside perfectly and she has been vet checked since we got her back from Holland yes , i think i said so earlier in the thread didn't i?


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

Bellatrix said:


> .... i think i said so earlier in the thread didn't i?


you are very defensive. I have only offered my opinion. I won't bother to again. And, I am sure you will have something to say after me (again).


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

MisStingerRN said:


> Couldn't agree with Paula and Therese more! You are asking for advise and that is what you are getting. Sorry if that offends you.



I find it weird that if the threads have been read fully someone would offer back to me the very advice i have said hasn't worked for a year??

If someone writes about how training form A hasn't worked ..how is it constructive to then five pages into a thread say ..have you tried training form A when I've explained in great detail how I've spent almost a year trying that approach and it didn't work. 

Yes I am here asking for advice, but telling me to do exactly what I've said hasn't worked ..treats, positive rewarding etc, patient 10 minutes then 20 minutes ..is just weird and then to say how unreasonable the next approach i am trying when 90% of the posters advocate it is just odd because surely they can understand the approach they are saying i HAVE tried, now i have to try something else ..and makes me think someone hasn't read the thread.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

Jerry'sMom said:


> you are very defensive. I have only offered my opinion. I won't bother to again. And, I am sure you will have something to say after me (again).


I am sorry if i come across as defensive. You come across as aggressive to me. Thats the internet for you .

As you quoted that i had said i said that earlier in the thread it is because you keep asking the same things i have already answered and offering the same advice i have already said doesn't work. That alone is fine but to then tell me how awful what I'm doing to my dog really isn't.


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## foggy (Oct 12, 2009)

Bellatrix, everyone here is only trying to help. You keep stating "if you would have read what I said" but we have, I suppose we just have a difference of opinion. I still believe forcing her to wear the harness for hours isn't the correct approach. I also don't personally believe this is a power struggle. Not all problems are due to a dog trying to be the alpha and assert their power. For whatever reason, the harness truly seems to cause her distress.

If you don't agree, that is totally fine, I respect that. We're just offering opinions and above all, we are all just trying to help. I wish you the best with Bella, I hope you can sort the problem. Good luck.


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

You're not going to "break her spirit". Much of dog behavior is reflected from their owners so the only way you'd break her spirit is if you let it devastate you continuously and if she fed off of that devastation. Dogs are very resilient & adaptable animals. You take a dog that has it's leg amputated...it doesn't mope around or stay depressed because it lost a leg. That would be a human emotion...dogs are much different. It moves forward & learns to live with 3 legs...much of the time with out slowing down much at all! Granted, a leg amputation is an extreme example. 

A simple light weight harness isn't going to traumatize her. Perhaps the constant on/off motion has which is why IMO leaving it on is best. She NEEDS the good experience in the harness in order to realize it is OK. The more relaxed & calm behavior she experiences in the harness, the more she'll accept it. Once she's experienced calmness in the harness & you decide to take it off...don't be surprised if she regresses back to being still. But just keep up & she'll again realize it is OK. It shouldn't take her so long the second, third, etc time & in time she'll not have any issues with it.

Anyway, I know it's hard to see her in distress. But try to keep positive & visualize the outcome you want.  And don't feel bad for doing it. YOU know the harness is the safest way for her to be walked...so you need to find a way to accomplish that.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

foggy said:


> "if you would have read what I said" but we have, I suppose we just have a difference of opinion.


I really dont think you understand what im saying, there is no difference in opinion . I totally agree with the positive 10 minute approach, then 20, then 30, treats, making it nothing but a positive experience. I did that for a year so how can i disagree. I agree, i don't know why this isn't coming across.

I'm just saying im trying something new now  because ^ didn't work so to keep re-iterating the advice i agree with completely ...but didn't work for me feels kinda pointless , i hope that is clearer.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

MChis said:


> You're not going to "break her spirit". Much of dog behavior is reflected from their owners so the only way you'd break her spirit is if you let it devastate you continuously and if she fed off of that devastation. Dogs are very resilient & adaptable animals. You take a dog that has it's leg amputated...it doesn't mope around or stay depressed because it lost a leg. That would be a human emotion...dogs are much different. It moves forward & learns to live with 3 legs...much of the time with out slowing down much at all! Granted, a leg amputation is an extreme example.
> 
> A simple light weight harness isn't going to traumatize her. Perhaps the constant on/off motion has which is why IMO leaving it on is best. She NEEDS the good experience in the harness in order to realize it is OK. The more relaxed & calm behavior she experiences in the harness, the more she'll accept it. Once she's experienced calmness in the harness & you decide to take it off...don't be surprised if she regresses back to being still. But just keep up & she'll again realize it is OK. It shouldn't take her so long the second, third, etc time & in time she'll not have any issues with it.
> 
> Anyway, I know it's hard to see her in distress. But try to keep positive & visualize the outcome you want.  And don't feel bad for doing it. YOU know the harness is the safest way for her to be walked...so you need to find a way to accomplish that.


Thank you, i really appreciate that. It is a hard approach because i do honestly believe in the positive 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there ..and the dog will grow to like the harness approach, thats what we did for a year!

I just have had to realise it does not work for all dogs. It is really upsetting to think doing this could break bellas spirit and traumatize her, argh when Jerrys Mum said that ..that was upsetting and shocking that someone would atttribute such human emotions to a dog but i agree with you. Dog trainers would agree too once all positive behavioural approaches had been exhausted we have no other options left.

I am showing her nothing but calmness, cuddles, trying to play with toys, encouraging her to eat but other than that getting on with my business


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## foggy (Oct 12, 2009)

Bellatrix said:


> I really dont think you understand what im saying, there is no difference in opinion . I totally agree with the positive 10 minute approach, then 20, then 30, treats, making it nothing but a positive experience. I did that for a year so how can i disagree. I agree, i don't know why this isn't coming across.
> 
> I'm just saying im trying something new now  because ^ didn't work so to keep re-iterating the advice i agree with completely ...but didn't work for me feels kinda pointless , i hope that is clearer.


I understand. Good luck with it, I hope you can sort it soon. Keep us posted, of course.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

I will just say...I've done the tough luck thing and it has worked. When we got Trigger it took him close to 3 weeks to sleep through the night in his crate. He screamed BLOODY MURDER all through the nite, so we ended up putting him in the other room and letting him scream. I had to pad his crate door with fleece so he wouldn't damage his paws. It was a nightmare. There was and wouldn't have been any positive way to do that lol, just had to let him tough it out. 

I'm all for positive reinforcement but I think sometimes we underestimate the clever factor of our chihuahuas and don't realize just how much they can manipulate us. LOL.


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

Bellatrix said:


> Thank you, i really appreciate that. It is a hard approach because i do honestly believe in the positive 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there ..and the dog will grow to like the harness approach, thats what we did for a year!
> 
> I just have had to realise it does not work for all dogs. It is really upsetting to think doing this could break bellas spirit and traumatize her, argh when Jerrys Mum said that ..that was upsetting and shocking that someone would atttribute such human emotions to a dog but i agree with you. Dog trainers would agree too once all positive behavioural approaches had been exhausted we have no other options left.
> 
> I am showing her nothing but calmness, cuddles, trying to play with toys, encouraging her to eat but other than that getting on with my business


Your right, just goes to show all dogs are different. Some dogs need the multiple exposures and time to get comfortable with something...some instead need the positive experiences IN the situation & if it isn't accomplished every time it only leads to more anxiety when put in the situation. Obviously if it was something simple like clothing...putting her through the stress isn't worth it. But a harness can be a life saving device in the event of a bigger dog lounging, stress on the neck, etc So I totally understand it's necessary for her to wear one. 

A positive, stress free approach I think is everyone's first choice in training as it should be. I totally understand where you're coming from....


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

flippedstars said:


> I will just say...I've done the tough luck thing and it has worked. When we got Trigger it took him close to 3 weeks to sleep through the night in his crate. He screamed BLOODY MURDER all through the nite, so we ended up putting him in the other room and letting him scream. I had to pad his crate door with fleece so he wouldn't damage his paws. It was a nightmare. There was and wouldn't have been any positive way to do that lol, just had to let him tough it out.
> 
> I'm all for positive reinforcement but I think sometimes we underestimate the clever factor of our chihuahuas and don't realize just how much they can manipulate us. LOL.


I swear Trigger & Marley are long lost brothers! LOL Marley took FOREVER to sleep through the night in his crate. He loves his crate now...at night.  On the off day when I have to crate him while I'm gone he still screams. My dad & step mom (who live next door) say it sounds like their is a little girl up here screaming. hehe  Then of course we have to double clip the crate doors otherwise he opens them. :roll: They ARE smart!! Thankfully I can leave him free to roam now that he doesn't go mark happy...unless I'm going to be gone for a few hours. We're gradually building him up though.


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## tricializ (Jun 1, 2010)

Personally, if she will walk and be good with a collar, i would just do that. I honestly wouldn't force the issue. It could make a neurotic dog IMHO. 
Tricia


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

MChis said:


> Your right, just goes to show all dogs are different. Some dogs need the multiple exposures and time to get comfortable with something...some instead need the positive experiences IN the situation & if it isn't accomplished every time it only leads to more anxiety when put in the situation. Obviously if it was something simple like clothing...putting her through the stress isn't worth it. But a harness can be a life saving device in the event of a bigger dog lounging, stress on the neck, etc So I totally understand it's necessary for her to wear one.
> 
> A positive, stress free approach I think is everyone's first choice in training as it should be. I totally understand where you're coming from....


You do totally see where i am coming from . Thanks , i couldn't (and obviously haven't) said it as well as you did there


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

tricializ said:


> Personally, if she will walk and be good with a collar, i would just do that. I honestly wouldn't force the issue. It could make a neurotic dog IMHO.
> Tricia


It's for safety reasons, like Mchis said it can be a life saving device.

Collars are fine for large dogs with large necks but they can cause trachea collapse in small dogs.

2nd reason is if a big dog came running towards her and i had to pull her away or lift her quickly i could literally break her neck with a collar, her neck is only 7 inches!!

3rd reason is she needs to accept a harness to be secured to a seat belt in the car, if the seat belt attachment again fits to her collar she could break her neck .


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

Trigger and Marly - bella says she feels your pain . She had a pen, not a crate but she wailed like a banshee when we wouldn't let her sleep with us when we first got her home but i am so glad we stuck it out now . She sounded like she was dying and everything inside me was saying ..go bring her to bed with you, but we didnt.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Bellatrix said:


> Trigger and Marly - bella says she feels your pain . She had a pen, not a crate but she wailed like a banshee when we wouldn't let her sleep with us when we first got her home but i am so glad we stuck it out now . She sounded like she was dying and everything inside me was saying ..go bring her to bed with you, but we didnt.


Just think of this as the same thing. Take it off to feed her twice a day, but otherwise, just try to stick with this for a bit. Let her tummy settle for maybe 10-15 min after she eats. On more than 1 occasion harnesses have saved Oakley's life as she can be very skittish, and same with Trigger. 

I am all about positive reinforcement but that very clearly isn't doing it in this situation and I believe you have sincerely tried.


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## FBRaRrN (May 1, 2006)

I would say put the harness on and also put the collar on and take her for a walk with the collar she will have the harness on but she be walking with the collar.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

Bellatrix said:


> I don't think it's been suggested but we tried it and there was no difference. We even tried walking her in a safe place off lead so she just had to walk on her own but she wouldn't move and when she did move a few steps she tried to run home arghh lol.


Yes, good idea, i think i said about it on page 3 , it doesnt work.



FBRaRrN said:


> I would say put the harness on and also put the collar on and take her for a walk with the collar she will have the harness on but she be walking with the collar.


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## FBRaRrN (May 1, 2006)

Oh sorry.Hope you get it worked out.


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## tricializ (Jun 1, 2010)

Bellatrix said:


> It's for safety reasons, like Mchis said it can be a life saving device.
> 
> Collars are fine for large dogs with large necks but they can cause trachea collapse in small dogs.
> 
> ...


I understand the reasons for a harness and with those situations, I would try the harness in small doses to acclimate her. I still would say though that traumatizing the dog, which she exhibits that she is, might cause more problems. But for seatbelt use etc. I get it. Have you tried that buddy belt kind of harness? It might work. Here is a link.
http://www.funnyfur.com/buddybeltsdogharness.aspx


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

flippedstars said:


> I am all about positive reinforcement but that very clearly isn't doing it in this situation and I believe you have sincerely tried.


me too, everything we ever do with bella is all about positive reinforcement. 

I'm so relieved that you can see i have sincerely tried every option available  positively based and they aren't working so I'm not being mean or rushing to tough love to save time and work as that is how some other people have unfortunately made me feel because i think they didnt read the whole thread  where i explained the extensive things we have tried for a very long time.

Lets hope this works, i will definitely try and view it like when we night time trained her, ill keep you updated


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## tricializ (Jun 1, 2010)

Ooh, and they also make Buddy Belt liners
http://www.funnyfur.com/buddybeltdogharnessliners.aspx


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

tricializ said:


> I understand the reasons for a harness and with those situations, I would try the harness in small doses to acclimate her. I still would say though that traumatizing the dog, which she exhibits that she is, might cause more problems. But for seatbelt use etc. I get it. Have you tried that buddy belt kind of harness? It might work. Here is a link.
> http://www.funnyfur.com/buddybeltsdogharness.aspx


Thank you for the link, that is almost exactly what we have if you look at bits it touches her body and pressure points . We have tried 5 or 6 harnesses in total.

I really don't want to sound all about what I've said in the prevvious 6 pages cos i know it's hard to read entire threads and i don't mean to sound defensive but Bella is 1 year old now and we have been trying since 12 weeks old with all kinds of positive strategies and positive reinforcements to get her to wear a harness. This is our last resort, i have tried every single thing with small does and acclimatisation, if you could read back i hope that comes across


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

tricializ said:


> Ooh, and they also make Buddy Belt liners
> http://www.funnyfur.com/buddybeltdogharnessliners.aspx


awesome, thank you! She has this one on the way so of this isnt any better we will definitely try the buddy one . We've tried puppia, a vest style, a kitten webbing harness, a dog leg kind of one and now this ->

http://www.parkavenuedogs.com/inc/sdetail/1069


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

FBRaRrN said:


> Oh sorry.Hope you get it worked out.


Don't be sorry, i appreciate any input  and i totally get how hard it is to read the entire thread at this size.


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