# Possible Neurological Condition... NEED HELP



## jacinda10 (Jun 5, 2013)

This is going to be long, so I really really appreciate you reading this and trying to help. 

Harper is 5.5 months old. She weighs 2.5lbs, and she was the runt of her litter (weighed under 2oz at birth). She has had 3 DHPP vaccinations, and a rabies vaccination (1/2 dose) with no issues. She does have an open fontanelle, that has gotten smaller since I first got her. It is about the size of a nickel - was originally quarter sized. 

Harper has had 3 "episodes", with all the same symptoms - but has been diagnosed differently each time. 

*1st episode (mid-June):* 

I am 95% sure she had toxicity poisoning, from marijuana ingestion. We had a roommate living with us, and he had cleaned out his bong in the bathroom and residue had got on the floor... I didn't see her licking it up but I am 95% sure she did. She acted stoned - very sleepy, tongue hanging out, couldn't stand without falling over. The vet gave her activated charcoal, and sub Q fluids. She also did a blood panel (NORMAL!) and bloog glucose (NORMAL!). Harper pooped the black stuff out an hour later and was fine. Just for reference, this was about a week after we got her and she had 2 DHPP shots by then at the breeder, last shot was about 1 month prior to this event. 

*2nd episode (July 18th): *

I came home from work, and the dog was kennelled all day. She had not interacted with the roommate other than him letting her out of her kennel to pee, and placing her back in it (I believe him on this point). She was acting normal, but she was HUNGRY. She ate 2 bowls of kibble, and also a bowl of wet food and her stomach was distended. Then, I took the dogs outside to the dog run. She was running in circles (not just one direction, it was varied) and acting really hyper - not out of the norm for her, but it seemed kind of weird when she was doing it. When I took her back in the house, the "stoned" behaviour started again. Couldn't stand up right, wobbly legs, swaying (like how a human would sway to music if that makes sense). She also was doing the "bobble head" where her head sort of bobbles and her eyes were shutting, also with her tongue sticking out. She looked STONED again - although this time, I was 95% sure she had NOT eaten marijuana as that roommate had not had contact with her other than letting the dog out to pee, and he swears up and down that he did not have anything on his hands, did not even have marijuana on him or in the house that day. We took her back to the vet, who made us feel horrible and said we were irresponsible owners etc etc. This time, the vet admitted Harper to the hospital because her blood pressure and heart rate were SO LOW. They pumped her full of IV fluids, and I was able to get her out of the hospital about 8 hours later. When I picked her up, she weighed over 3.5 lbs - that's how much fluid they put in her. She felt like a brick. This time, the vet did no diagnostic testing or anything like that - it was an assumed marijuana ingestion from the start. The next day she was pretty much back to her normal self. For reference, this was approx 1.5/2 weeks following her 3rd DHPP vaccination.

(also, the roommate voluntarily left our house at this point and moved out - we do not smoke marijuana or do any drugs at all, so from this point forward - Harper has no marijuana around her to get into)

*3rd episode (August 8th): *

Came home from work at 5, Harper had her normal dinner (1/8 cup - 1/4 cup) kibble at 5:30. There was ZERO chance she came into contact with any marijuana, or tobacco. She was under my supervision the entire evening, and was with me in the kitchen while I cooked, watching me like she always does. She didn't eat anything I had cooked for myself. Around 7:30, the same thing happened - she started acting "stoned". She was also VERY hyper - running around doing laps around the living room and under the dining room chairs, very very hyper. But, when she would stop running - she got the "wobbles" again. Its almost like her back legs would come out from under her. Sometimes her front legs too. So, she has ataxia - but only when she stops running. When she's running, she's fine. When she would go to her bed, she would sit in her bed and fall over while sitting, too. The wobbles/swaying legs didn't seem to just be one-sided, but when she was in her bed, she tended to just fall over to the side closest to the wall. 

She also was doing the tongue-sticking-out thing, but just a little (where as the previous "episodes" she did it A LOT). She was doing the bobble head thing too - especially when she was sitting on her bed, falling over. 

I thought that it may be hypoglycemia (despite having two meals that day already), so I tried picking her up to give her nutrical gel. She freaked out when I picked her up, and was not acting like herself AT ALL. She would try to get away when I would give her nutrical, like she would tighten her back and "veer up" like a horse would. So i tried Karo syrup, too. Same response. She wouldn't even take her favourite duck treats. This is not like her. She didn't want to be picked up, she was very weird. Also when she was veering away when i tried to feed her, She would try to get her head away from me so much that I saw the white part of her eyes. I took her heart rate with my stethoscope, it was only 135. Her pupils dilated when I used my pen light. 

Took her to the vet, again. Vet said she looks like she has marijuana poisoning - I said there is NO WAY she can have that, at all. So the vet did brief neuro testing, and said she passed all of the neurological testing, but that her symptoms were indicative of a neurological condition - what she wasn't sure. Her heart rate was 160 at vet, normal BP, and temp was 39.6 Celsius, a little high. For reference, she received a 1/2 dose of the rabies vaccine on July 31 (a week ago). 

*Has anyone ever heard of this happening to a dog? These are her main symptoms: 

Sudden, random attacks of:
-Ataxia, swaying legs
-Tongue sticking out (not normal for her)
-Bobble head where she can't hold her head up

Combined with:
-Hyperactivity
-Strange behaviour
-Refusal to eat/drink
*


The last two "toxicity" events were covered under our pet insurance. I just spoke with them, because the vet suggested we see a neurologist. I wanted to see if it would be covered. The confusion I have, and they do too, is if it is a "pre-existing condition". Because the last two "events" were the same symptoms essentially (marijuana toxicity was NOT confirmed) - the representative was unsure how "pre-existing conditions" were classified, whether it was based on symptoms, or based on diagnosis from Vet - the last two episodes were clearly classified / diagnosed as "toxicity". The insurance people are doing the underwriting to see if it will be covered to have her see a neurologist, and I will know by next Friday. It sounds horrible, but I can't afford to have a $10,000 shunt put in for hydro (if she has that, just an example) - so I told the guy that I would have to wait to get her into a neurologist until I can see if they would cover it. He sufficiently made me feel really guilty. 

I took a video and sent it to the breeder (who is a good person, not a puppy mill). She is at a dog show and showed it to several other breeders/experiences people, and they said they had NEVER seen this ever before. The only possibility they could think of, was meningitis. I looked up the symptoms and they don't seem to match. 

I'm in the (human) medical field, and the only things that I can think of (but she only has a few symptoms from each possible condition): 
-Hydrocephalus
-Meningitis
-Encephalitis
-Structural brain defect / developmental disorder of the brain
-Liver shunt
-Focal seizures

Please help. I am desperate.


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## cpaoline (Oct 9, 2012)

OMG. I really don't have any ideas, but want to offer my support. If i had to pick something I would say maybe a tumor on her brain or somewhere pressing on something close to her brain. The black poop, are you sure it was from the "weed" maybe that could have been the onset to something else?


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## jacinda10 (Jun 5, 2013)

The black poop was from the activated charcoal


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## cpaoline (Oct 9, 2012)

oh, I'm at a loss, My first thought would have been to think blood sugar but that isn't the case. Have you tried PetMD and using the symptom checker


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

My guess would be a liver shunt. Have your vet do a bile acid test and you will know.


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## woodard2009 (Aug 4, 2010)

I agree with Tracy and it also sounds it could be low blood sugar because she is very young. I would try giving her karo inbetween meals to see if this causes the episodes to disappear. Poor baby.


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

Can you put a video of her walking? i have Dottie who has Ataxia


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## jacinda10 (Jun 5, 2013)

michele said:


> Can you put a video of her walking? i have Dottie who has Ataxia


She just has the ataxia when she stops, and i've tried to get video - you can just see her swaying back and forth. I don't know how to upload. 

I'm starting to think liver shunt.


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

jacinda10 said:


> She just has the ataxia when she stops, and i've tried to get video - you can just see her swaying back and forth. I don't know how to upload.
> 
> I'm starting to think liver shunt.


Upload the video to Youtube or Photobucket and then post the link here


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## jacinda10 (Jun 5, 2013)

Here are videos we took last night trying to capture it:


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I say low blood sugar, they can drop when they are overly active too so from the description you have given that would by my guess. If you would have been able to get that nutrical or Karo and rubbed it onto her gums I am betting she would have snapped back. JMO. I hope it is something as simple as that.


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## Kelliope (Mar 11, 2011)

Sounds like liver issues to me as well. Bloodwork with a bile acid test is where I would start. Best of luck!!!


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

Just saw the videos after I posted, now not so sure about Hypoglycemia but still a possiblity I guess. Chibi could barely lift his head when had his episode and he would stand just very tired, his was very serious though and we almost lost him.


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

No can't see Ataxia ,I hope she will be ok


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## Tabcat73 (May 8, 2013)

My vader has those symptoms from becoming toxic due to liver problem. He is on special diet and antibiotic for life and so far so good. My understanding is ammonia builds up from food and causes the bobble head and drugged look. It was so scary to watch. We give him pedialite when he has episodes and helps flush his system out. I would ask vet to look at liver problems. I hope you get answers soon. vader was also the runt. 

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## Tabcat73 (May 8, 2013)

Oh man just watched vids made me cry. Reminds me so much of vader. He always got to the point where he almost goes comatose. Its absolutely heartbreaking. If it is a liver issue food has to be changed. Vader is on hills i/d, am antibiotic and pumpkin. If he shows further issues we will add lactulose to his protocol. The main thing for him is to get his food to go through as quickly as possible. 

I didn't and don't have pet insurance and cannot afford specialist. So we will manage with diet alone and hope for the best. Its been nearly a month since he's had an episode.and he was having them rather frequently. Hugs to you and again I hope you get answers soon. 

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## jacinda10 (Jun 5, 2013)

Tabcat73 said:


> Oh man just watched vids made me cry. Reminds me so much of vader. He always got to the point where he almost goes comatose. Its absolutely heartbreaking. If it is a liver issue food has to be changed. Vader is on hills i/d, am antibiotic and pumpkin. If he shows further issues we will add lactulose to his protocol. The main thing for him is to get his food to go through as quickly as possible.
> 
> I didn't and don't have pet insurance and cannot afford specialist. So we will manage with diet alone and hope for the best. Its been nearly a month since he's had an episode.and he was having them rather frequently. Hugs to you and again I hope you get answers soon.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I almost am positive that this is what she has. 

How did you actually recieve a diagnosis? I've spent 1000$ now trying to get answers, and nothing. AND I just found out the pet insurance is unlikely to cover this, since it is a "pre existing condition" aka a condition she was born with most likely. 

I'm not even sure if we want to do anything else at the vet - they keep giving us the run around. I am thinking we maybe should just switch to the low protein diet. You said you also feed pumpkin?


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## jacinda10 (Jun 5, 2013)

Also, as far as I understand the condition is called *HEPATIC ENCEPHALOPATHY. *


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Call your vet and schedule a bile acid test. That is THE test for diagnosing a liver problem. Otherwise you are just guessing. Have the test and then know what you are dealing with. Then you can make decisions for her based on facts, not just guesses.


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

I don't have any advice but I'm sorry to hear she is having issues. I hope you are able to take Tracy's advice and get the bile acid test done so u can get definitive answers. 

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## jacinda10 (Jun 5, 2013)

Brodysmom said:


> Call your vet and schedule a bile acid test. That is THE test for diagnosing a liver problem. Otherwise you are just guessing. Have the test and then know what you are dealing with. Then you can make decisions for her based on facts, not just guesses.


This is the plan, I think. Curious, have you had this test done? What did you pay? 

My vet quoted me $350, which I thought was a bit steep for a blood test as I've run a full blood panel on her before and it was $100.


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## Tabcat73 (May 8, 2013)

We did a blood panel and my vet checked everything from pancreas to hypoglycemia. The liver was high on him. There are several problems that could involve the liver from shunts to hepatitis. We haven't had bile acid test done yet just liver think ALT and something else. If I could physically get to his labs (I got a copy) I'd tell you what they were. The vet was looking into costs of bile acid tests for me since money is so tight for me. His initial tests ran about 180. Before that had spent maybe couple hundred on er vet. The hills i/d costs us about 30 a month and his antibiotic was 12 but it looks like it will last several months since it gets very little. The pumpkin I get at pet store its called fruitables he gets like 2tsp a day of that and a can lasts a week and ia close to $ 4. 

I thought preexisting conditions were only if diagnosed. I have threads in here about his symptoms called prayers for vader I think. All I know is we thought we were losing him. I hope its not the liver for your pup. And if it is I hope its easily managed. Keep us updated and I will keep you in my thoughts. stay strong. 

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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

Any updates on your baby yet?

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## jacinda10 (Jun 5, 2013)

Zorana1125 said:


> Any updates on your baby yet?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


We have decided to switch her to a low-protein food, and make sure that she isn't getting hypoglycemic. The thing is, all of her symptoms don't really match - because she hasn't had any problems with food, then boom she wobbles and falls over, once a month. She doesn't have the classic "liver problem" issues. I'm not convinced its neuro either. I'm getting her on the diet recommended by Dog Liver Shunt - Liver Shunt in Dogs - Portosystemic Shunt - I'm not convinced she's a shunt, because she doesn't puke or have diarrhea. 

Basically, we're waiting and seeing what happens. The breeder feels horrible and said she was going to bile acid test on puppies sired by the dad, just in case.


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

jacinda10 said:


> We have decided to switch her to a low-protein food, and make sure that she isn't getting hypoglycemic. The thing is, all of her symptoms don't really match - because she hasn't had any problems with food, then boom she wobbles and falls over, once a month. She doesn't have the classic "liver problem" issues. I'm not convinced its neuro either. I'm getting her on the diet recommended by Dog Liver Shunt - Liver Shunt in Dogs - Portosystemic Shunt - I'm not convinced she's a shunt, because she doesn't puke or have diarrhea.
> 
> Basically, we're waiting and seeing what happens. The breeder feels horrible and said she was going to bile acid test on puppies sired by the dad, just in case.


Can ur breeder help pay for her to have a bile acids test? I would just be freaked out not knowing, especially bc there is a test for it but that may just be the pharmacist in me. 

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## jacinda10 (Jun 5, 2013)

Zorana1125 said:


> Can ur breeder help pay for her to have a bile acids test? I would just be freaked out not knowing, especially bc there is a test for it but that may just be the pharmacist in me.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If she has another attack, I will pay for her test myself. I've already done bloodwork last time at the vet and her ALT was in the normal range. Posting pic of the bloodwork below.


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## ChiChiLove (Feb 4, 2013)

Poor little one. I hope she is doing well. I just wanted to chime in and say that $350 for a bile acids test is outrageous. When one of my little girl needed it, I paid $80.
You may want to call around to different vets to see if you can get a better price. You could always bring the test results back to your regular vet for review. I do agree that a bile acids test is a *must* for proper liver issue diagnosis.
Good luck!


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