# My first chi- can you give me your opinion on whether he's apple/deer headed?



## pdmcgrane (Nov 20, 2011)

This is Atlán- he's 3.5 months old and hails from Mexico. I'm starting to become chi informed and was curious what you guys think? Apple or Deer head? What color would you say he is? Is 2.1lbs about right for a 15 week old?

Also, since I'm in Mexico my resources are a lot more slim since dogs aren't viewed as family members so much as they are at home. I bought some puppy kibble here and the ingredients made me cringe so I'm just making him food at home in lieu of that nasty puppy kibble stuff they sell here. 

Thanks for your advice- I appreciate it!!


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

Anybody know ?


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## Sissy2010 (Nov 28, 2010)

I believe he's a deer shaped head. 
is he 100% chi? Perhaps he is a chihuahua mix and that sometimes has to do with the head shaped.


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## rokmurphy (Oct 31, 2011)

Wow! Look at how thick his hair is at just 3.5 months!!! Super cute too.


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## PrincessCupcake (Nov 17, 2011)

His head is deer shaped.

In the first picture, it is difficult to tell whether or not he seems to be a full Chihuahua.
In the second picture, it is my opinion that he seems to be a full blooded Chihuahua.

Head shape could definitely represent if a Chihuahua dog is pure bred, or a cross-bred dog, but there are MANY pure bred Chihuahua dogs with Deer shaped heads.

The only thing that head shape dictates is whether or not a dog can be shown. Only Appleheads can be shown because the AKC dictates that the head of a Chihuahua dog must be apple-domed and that its muzzle must be moderately short. The Deer headed Chihuahua doesn't fit this description. None of this really matters though for people who don't show. Some people prefer the deer head shape. Also, here's my two-cents on that subject. Dogs change over time, especially due to the fact that people breed them to "standard", (and I am quoting this from several people that show dogs nearly word for word) to contribute to and perfect the breed. Well, in doing this, it not only cosmetically changes the way the original Chihuahua dog looks, it is a road to essentially no where because how can humans be the judge of what the perfect Chihuahua dog is? What exactly is the "perfect Chihuahua dog"? Some evidence shows that the original Chihuahua dog from the state of Chihuahua, (the state where my family is half from) was not nearly as dome headed and short muzzled as today's Chihuahua dog. How is that perfecting the breed? Changing it more and more from what it originally was?

Anyway, that is just my rant. It's a BIG subject for me but please, by all means, if you intend to show believe me when I say that many people find it to be a rewarding experience. Do not let my ranting deter you.

As for your dogs weight, it seems absolutely normal. Some Chihuahua dogs are bigger, some are very tiny. Some grow a lot into adulthood, some don't grow all that much at all. It all depends on the dog, just like humans!

I hope this helps you.


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## pdmcgrane (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks for your time and information concerning the topic. Yes it helps a lot and it really doesn't matter if he's one way or another as long as he's healthy. I just got him as a companion dog since it's nice to have a furry friend with me down in Mexico to travel with. I just asked out of curiosity's sake to start developing my "chi eye" and to be able to start noticing the subtle differences when observing them since I'm definitely a newbie and never expected to have a chi of my own. Thanks again to all the professionals


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## pdmcgrane (Nov 20, 2011)

Also- what color would you say he is?? Cream, blond, fawn......?


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## PrincessCupcake (Nov 17, 2011)

I don't know that much about color, not nearly as much as I know about the shapes of their head. To me, he looks fawn, because I THINK cream and blonde are lighter shades. I'm not sure. By the way, he is a GORGEOUS puppy. You are lucky to have found a Chihuahua that beautiful. Especially in Mexico. I know how dogs are not beloved in the same way as they are here.


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

No blonde in the Chi world. I would say Fawn (going by the pic and my screen so I can be incorrect) but do not be surprised should he become more or less dark. He still has a lot of changing to do given his age. I also say deer head. His head will flatten as well as he grows. 
Here are recognized Chi colors:
American Kennel Club - Breed Colors and Markings

My Hope is an example of classic cream. Although she is SC, this will give you an idea:









She is also an example of an apple head. You can see from her profile a nice 90 degree at the intersection of her snout and head. No sloping.


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## Angel1210 (Mar 14, 2011)

Congratulations! He's beautiful no matter what he is! Just love him to death! (not literally, haha)


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## Blue Chi (Oct 12, 2011)

It's hard to tell since he's long hair but I'm gonna go with deer head too.


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## Esotiq (Nov 21, 2011)

Extremely dear headed 

That's the way apple head looks like:


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## sugarbaby (Dec 21, 2009)

would say dear head also  he is a very good looking little fellow


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## pdmcgrane (Nov 20, 2011)

perfect- I think I got the whole apple/deer head down now. I've read that apple heads can be less healthy than deer heads because of their head shape- is that true in your opinion? Or does head shape not matter in that sense?


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## Esotiq (Nov 21, 2011)

Sorry, I wrote dear - I meant deer head.

No, it's not true.
Apple head isn't less 'healthy' it's a lie.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

He's a deer head.
Cute too! is he a long coat? almost looks it!

Apple heads can have health problems, my vet feels they are not as hardy as deer heads. They have been bred purposely to have that distinct look. They often need c-sections, have larger moleras etc.

That said I have two apple heads. 
Enjoy him! they grow quick.


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm one of those people who, although I very much respect the show world and would even LOVE to show a pup some day; have kinda a weird opinion on it. The simple fact of the matter is that years and years ago we 'created' these standards and bred for them. But in the case of a companion dog; the length of it's muzzle or the shape of it's head doesn't affect much. It doesn't make them any more or less healthier. Just means they fit the description that people once declared correct. Does that make sense?? I still have a huge respect for the AKC, and all those who contribute to maintaining a breed's integrity... but in my case I think that when it comes down to characteristics that otherwise have no affect on the dogs health (such as skull or muzzle) it all seems kinda petty. Just my opinion; not trying to start anything here... just acknowledging that these standards were put into place and created by people who had a specific thing in mind. I understand that a certain look was preferred by them; but simply isn't preferred by me. I couldn't care less about head shape IMO; but I do think that ones with slightly longer muzzles are downright adorable. Just because my opinion and preference is different than what the original 'breed group' preferred does not make my dog any less "quality" or "healthy." If you ask me, the pedigrees that show a dog being HEALTH TESTED are more important to me than head shape.
ETA: Btw your dog is perfectly adorable!!!! I would have guessed apple head with a longer muzzle though; in the 2nd photo that shows a profile it looks a lot more domed with a defined stop; but a slightly longer muzzle. Not all longer-muzzled chi's are deer shaped. I would think to be a deer-head he would need to have more of a slant between the top of the skull and the stop (where the snout starts to protrude.) In MY standard he looks just downright perfect, that is the kind of chi I prefer lol!!


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## Alison (Nov 22, 2011)

Looks deerheaded IMO but anything that isnt an applehead is called deerhead. Going a bit off subject, I really prefer deerheads even though it is not the KC standard (I think), they do look more natural and I find them much cheekier! I love cheeky chihuahuas!


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## pdmcgrane (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks for all of your amazing input everyone. Kittyn- I admit I'm on the same boat with you concerning our preference for a particular look. I definitely am more into the longer muzzle look.....but not necessarily too exaggerated like I see in some deer heads with massive ears. I like the in between look- half way between a deer and an apple. Also, I am a big fan of the long haired type which is how I ended up with my guy.

I've looked for awhile back in the States and whenever I found a long haired chi they would try to charge me an arm and a leg. Luck has it I came down to Mexico to study for awhile and started on my chi hunt the first day. It took me a little over two weeks to find him. Many Mexicans don't even have a clue that long haired versions exist and many people stop me on a daily basis asking what kind of dog he is. People selling long haired chi pups try to sell them at ridiculous prices here because they're "rare", but that being said it's still cheaper than in the US. I lucked out with Atlán (my puppy) being that I got him fairly cheap. Most short haired chis from a more "reputable" breeder or specialized pet shop (they offer health guarantees which is a big thing in Mexico) run from around 120-250 dollars. A long haired chi someone will try to sell for 500 or more. You can also get them from the Sunday indian market for 30 or 40 bucks, but there is definitely no guarantee and the puppies can be sick. It's more a rescue mission when you buy from the indians here. All in all I'm really happy with my new Mexican companion.


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

pdmcgrane said:


> Thanks for all of your amazing input everyone. Kittyn- I admit I'm on the same boat with you concerning our preference for a particular look. I definitely am more into the longer muzzle look.....but not necessarily too exaggerated like I see in some deer heads with massive ears. I like the in between look- half way between a deer and an apple.


Same here lol! The only chi I've ever bought from a breeder and sought her out by color/look was my baby Kahlua. She has a more apple domed head but with a definite longer muzzle than the standard would call for. But I also don't want a chi who's head looks like a min-pin. And I too am a sucker for the long-coats which is probably why I find your chi so adorable lol!


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

So hard to tell what color they'll end up when they're young. Like what was mentioned he could end up darker or lighter than he is now. And he is "deer shaped". I used to prefer that look as well. When I got Matilda as a pup (our first Chi) I REALLY wished she would end up exactly like she did. LOL Lucked out with her considering I had no clue what I was looking for. Now I prefer the more standard look but probably because I've gotten into showing a bit. But I still love all Chi's & mine especially even if most are a "mess" standard wise. They're no less Chi's & no less loved. 




PrincessCupcake said:


> His head is deer shaped.
> 
> In the first picture, it is difficult to tell whether or not he seems to be a full Chihuahua.
> In the second picture, it is my opinion that he seems to be a full blooded Chihuahua.
> ...


You know, I have the same feelings. The Chi standard HAS changed a lot in the last 100+ years. Humans have totally changed the way these dogs are "suppose" to look to what they prefer. Granted Chi's are companion dogs & should look to please the owner no matter what. However, some of the "details" of the standard on how Chi's are "suppose" to be put together actually makes for a healthier dog--it's not _just_ preference. (didn't realize this until I looked more into the standard & did some basic dog anatomy research) Knowing that made it easier to understand why some traits are more desireable than others. The basic look of Chi's (not meaning structure) has changed too & it just reminds me of a few certain humans manipulating the way the breed should look to suit their opinion. Just sounds wrong looking at it like that...I have thought this for years. LOL Saying that I do have a huge amount of respect for the AKC...don't get me wrong!

Anyway, I am slowly getting into the show part of Chi's myself. It's a fun sport & hobby and it's neat to be around so many like minded people.  Whether I think the look of Chi's over time should have changed or not I do enjoy showing & I enjoy the way standard Chi's look today.


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

MChis said:


> However, some of the "details" of the standard on how Chi's are "suppose" to be put together actually makes for a healthier dog--it's not _just_ preference. (didn't realize this until I looked more into the standard & did some basic dog anatomy research) Knowing that made it easier to understand why some traits are more desireable than others.


This is really interesting to me, do you have any links to point to these traits? I'm actually trying to explain it more to my OH. I understand and respect the preservation of breed standard but have a hard time explaining "why" each breed standard says what it does; especially for companion dogs. I know with some of the shorter-nosed (bracyphallic) breeds they cause respiratory issues but have no clue if shorter muzzles in chi's suffer similar issues compared to longer muzzles. I couldn't begin to grasp what skull shape effects, LOL.. I did take some animal anatomy classes but I admittedly gave my anatomy book away because it made me sad. =( They had 3 different dogs dissected; and photos of every single system... just made me teary eyed every time because the first photos were of the dogs alive. =( I dunno, got too emotional for me lol... but it was incredibly informative. Showed every detail... 

Really, it just comes down to me preferring the look of a Russian Toy Terrier; so needless to say I love any chi's that look like them, haha. I am just very aamzed in the evolution and creation of "breeds" in general.. I could watch documentaries on breed formation forever lol


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

About 1/3 of the way down this page it begins a more "extended" breed standard (it's old but gives decent explainations)...it's the part where it says "A closer look". It does have some explainations as to why certain traits are more desirable as far as "health" goes. But mostly it goes down to a dog that is built correction in structure is less likely to have injury as it is properly coordinated & less "clumsy" as say a dog with incorrect structure...as well as less "strain" to certain parts of their body (legs mostly) which will result in less trauma from long term misuse of the part of the body from trying to self correct if that makes sense? Anyway here is the link: 

Chihuahua facts...

And another less specific read but same idea: Just dogs with Sherri: canine structure

I don't think there is an actual purpose for the apple dome shaped skull other than it being a desirable look. Same goes for the short muzzle! I know it's hard to fit all those teeth in short muzzles so a lot of short muzzled dogs have not so great mouths. My shorter muzzled dogs (Mari & Lulu) reverse sneeze more often than the others...but I'm sure that's purely coincidence.  Lulu's muzzle is on the shorter side & she has no breathing troubles. She only reverse sneezes when she meets someone & gets super excited. LOL

OMG I'd never even heard of a Russian Toy Terrier--they do look soooo much like Chi's!! Wow. haha I can see why you like the longer muzzled Chi's.  And like I said...I used to feel the same way. For whatever reason I've grown to love the short little muzzles too--they're so "cute"! :lol:


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

LOL yes Russian Toy Terriers are.. downright.. adorable.. I didn't have the $4000 to import one so I figured I would either get a Lc chi or papillon and hope for long ear fringe hehe. I just love that tiny fox look. ^_^


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Have you looked at the Prague Ratters? Very similar to the russian toys and there are breeders here in the US. Very very cute little guys!! 

Prague Ratter's Club of America


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

^I don't see long coats though.. =( That's my weakness lol...


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

KittynKahlua said:


> ^I don't see long coats though.. =( That's my weakness lol...


No, they are all smooths. They would be cute with coats though!!


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## bayoumah (Nov 30, 2010)

hi your little chih is very cute good luck with him they make perfect compauions i love my buster


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## Esotiq (Nov 21, 2011)

But chi isn't the russian toy terrier.

For me it's really important: pedigree dog must have not only the described character, but also typical look. Chi must look as a chi, not like russkiy toy or papillon 

edit:
KittyhnKahlua if You'd like to have russian toy imported it could be really cheaper than 4000 USD 
Really.
There in Poland we have dogs imported from Russia. Usually they costs about 1500 euro -> 1 euro=4,5 PLN -> 4,5PLN = 2,25 USD 
And in Poland they are even cheaper, because toys are not so popular here. They costs about 1500 PLN = 750 USD. But I don't know how much does the aeroplane ticket cost


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## rms3402 (Dec 2, 2010)

VERY CUTE! Welcome to the forum!


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## pdmcgrane (Nov 20, 2011)

Thank you for the warm welcomes and wonderful info!!! He's doing great- just making him get over the leash "thing". He doesn't like being walked with it so I've just starting attaching it to his harness and letting him pull it around so that he gets used to it little by little. I hope he gets over it soon. Also- do any of you know if it's easy to potty train them to go outside after they're used to going on newspaper? Unfortunately in my living situation down in Mexico I can't take him outside to go potty, but for some reason he's great at always going on newspaper since day 1 without me having to train him. However when I return back to my rural home in New Mexico in January I want him to potty outside- since I live in the middle of nowhere and it's easy for my dogs to access outside. Is it easy to make the change from newspaper to outside in your experience? I really hate the fact that I'm having him go inside now- I don't want to confuse him a month or two later.


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## Alison (Nov 22, 2011)

Not sure if it will work for an adult dog but for puppies you just place the newspaper outside where you want him to poop and gradually make the newspaper smaller so that he has less space to poop on it. 

Gradually you should be able to remove the newspaper entirely and he will poop outside. 

You are lucky that it is newspaper he toilets on. I have looked after dogs that would only poop on carpet, that was a nightmare!


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