# Accidental Tie with first-estrus bitch - don't have access to breeders section



## BlessingsAbound

I'm posting here because I don't have access to the breeders section and I'm not sure how to apply (and I don't have 100 posts yet!!).

First, this will be brief because I'm recovering from surgery an on Vicodin so it's very difficult to type, let alone give all the details of my situation. 

I am mentoring with an AKC breeder to potentially breed my chihuahuas. My smooth coat female is in her first estrus which began September 22nd (1st day of bleeding - swollen vuvla 3 days prior). I have two intact males in the house and have been careful to keep them separated (one intact male will be pet only and neutered soon - not soon enough!!!). I separate via female in crate and males in separate area go-go pen. Separate potty times plus female wears diaper at all times and males wear wraps when out for their playtime (again, separate from my girls).

Because I'm post-surgery (ovarian cyst, ovary, tube removed) my in-laws are here helping with the kids and pets. My MIL was extensively prepped on the chis esp. since Stella is in season. That said, I found Stella and my male due to be altered out together this evening. They were lying near each other cleaning themselves. I grabbed my girl and her vuvla was out the edge of her diaper (my male, Lucky, wasn't wearing his wrap) and her vulva had white discharge slightly oozing out. My male was cleaning himself and looked very tired and relieved (unlike his neurotic self of late due to Stella's heat cycle). I'm quite certain they tied. 

Now for the details. First day of bleeding was 9/22. She was standing/flagging noticeably on 10/4. Based on averages, today would make her Day 18 from first day of bleeding or, assuming day 10 LH, day 12 OV, this would be day 6 post OV. So, it's late in a typical cycle but still within viability of ovum. 

Where people are concerned, I don't believe in abortion so when my mentor (also chi breeder suggested "morning after" options) the moral dilemma was raised. 

I also don't want to endanger my Stella and I'm' quite distraught as I have hopes of showing/finishing her. 

I would love to hear any other similar experiences/outcomes. I plan on bringing her to my vet on Tuesday, due to the holiday weekend but of course I'm going crazy in the mean time and would appreciate words of wisdom. My mentor/breeder has only personally experienced 1 accidental mating in her 5 years of breeding and the result was one stillborn pup. Mom was okay. She has heard of two other accidental first-estrus breedings. In one scenario Mom and pups died, in the other mom required c-section but all survived. 

ETA: _ I should mention that in the scenario where the mom and pups died it was because the owner didn't realize she was pregnant (had WAY too many dogs) and didn't get her prenatal care nor was she present for the whelping which ended in a dystocic stillborn pup. That particular situation was one with a BYB that wasn't caring for her dogs properly. My mentor/breeder was actually trying to work with the county to rehome pups from this woman when this occurred. I didn't want to scare someone that might search this topic and then read this. Still, having puppies too young DOES pose a threat to the mother and puppies but can be managed with proper and attentive medical care. _

Thanks for the advice. Please be advised that I am not some backyard breeder throwing puppies together. I take the art and science of breedign seriously and have been training and researching at length before even making a decision to breed (I thought I had plenty more time too!!!). I would prefer, if you're comments are that of "you should've been more careful" that you keep them to yourself. I realize this is an undesired situation and it wouldn't have happened if my current health wasn't compromised. My mother-in-law was also trying her best to help out our family. ACCIDENTS are just that....accidental!!!!! 

Thank you so much, fellow Chi-lovers!!


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## cprcheetah

If you are going to do the mismate shot it has to be done within 48-72 hours, and it can sometimes make the dog sterile. Also it is only about 97% effective, and sometimes you can have pups born with birth defects, and it puts them at higher risk for developing pyometra. Just so you know. I know the decision you are facing is tough, but you have to look at the pros/cons of each side. She is young (I'm assuming since it's her 1st cycle) there will be risks if she does get pregnant, however she's also on the tail end of her cycle, I've never had a bitch get pregnant who was bred that late, but every bitch is different in their cycles. I had 1 oopsie litter, and it was because my brother let my 2 poodles out together when she was in heat, she had just had a litter so we were going to rest her that cycle, we chose to let her have the pups. I've always bred around days 11, 13 & 15. But each dog is different in where they are at at their cycle. You can show/finish her even if she does have puppies, my sister's standard poodle puppy's mom was shown and picked up a major just about 9 weeks after her pups were born. I know lots of breeders who breed their dogs between shows. Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## Brodysmom

Well, what choice do you have?

You don't want to do the mismate shot.

You will be having puppies.

What else do you want to know?


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## cprcheetah

Oh and diapers, belly bands & crates are not good 'barriers' when trying not to breed, we had a client who's pit bull tore the crap out of his penis breeding their golden retriever through a crate. And I hear all the time how dogs get bred through diapers/belly bands. Next time maybe have the boys stay with someone else when the girls are in season. I know it was a fluke with your MIL's help but accidents can & will happen, it's nature.


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## Distant Hill

So your having Puppies , get your girl on a high quality puppy food now ! She will need the extra calcium .
the week before she is due to deliver have her exrayed to be sure you don't need to schedule a C-section . 
Your bitch is going to need extra supplements during this pregnancy get with your vet and work out a good program for her . 

Good Luck ! 
Hope all goes well with your delivery .


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## Adrienne

Wow that sucks...


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## TripleAChihuahuas

well you can pray and hope it's a miss, as breeders if we see a tie then you have options 1: misshot 2: let them tie again so less of a chance on only one pup (big cause of Csections) 3: hope and pray 4: aboration

That's it there's isn't anything anyone can do now that it has happened besides what I said above.
Good luck hope everything works out for you and your girl.


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## 18453

Views on human abortion or not get the mis mate jab it could save your puppies life!! If she becomes sterile so what!! She's alive she has puppies she could die!!

Dogs mate because they have too it's nature they will get through a crate a nappy and a belly band it's naive to think otherwise!! If he is going to be neutered the sensible thing to do would have been to do it before the bitch went into heat!!

Yes you've had an operation and recovering is never easy it would have made more sense to send one of the dogs way to someone else but anyway it's done now put your morals/religious views?? Aside were in 2010 and save your girls life


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## MChis

I say save up your money & take her to the vet at day 28 post tie (they can palpate & do an u/s to see pups). Have an xray done around day 57-58 so they can count how many pups you should expect & also so they can measure her pelvis size compared to their head size. From there you will know if you should schedule a c-section or not. 

I know accidents happen & there is really no way to keep them seperated safely in the same house. Next time I'd suggest either housing the boys in another place or your female. I can tell you that during her second heat Maribelle had an accidental tie with Marley (who was 7mo old) on her day 18. It was my fault 100%. I'd been great about keeping them seperated but one day everyone was snoozing (Mari was in another room double gated in) so I snuck into the bathroom for 5 minutes to shower. Opened the shower door to come out & heard Mari screaming. Ran out to find them in a tie & I nearly died. We had an u/s done at 28 weeks (there really is nothing the vet can do before then unless you were going to get the shot to prevent the pregnancy) & thankfully there were no pups.

THEN when Maya was in heat a couple months later (we were trying to get Marley neutered but his bloodwork was off so he needed meds for a few weeks before they could recheck & neuter) we left the pups...Marley was closed off in another room in a crate. The door to the room was SHUT & couldn't be opened unless the knob was turned. I was sure Maya was out of her heat (she has a super short heat of 2 weeks total but I was still playing it safe) and I kid you not we came home to them all running around together--the door that had been latched was opened. I still have no idea how the heck that happened....but where theres a will theres a way (and we know Marley can open crate doors from inside but the door knob I have NO idea!). Luckily Maya was in fact done with her heat so we were safe. I was sure no tie had occurred as they weren't interested in one another. But still. Again--our fault for having an intact male & female in the same house. I had been sure to keep them seperated because I so did NOT want to breed Maya (she is very thin framed). Marley is finally neutered & Maya will be spayed shortly. I'm SO relieved to not have any unaltered males in the house. 

Anyway, we got lucky & didn't have any pups with our 2 "boo boos" (though really it was only one technical boo boo LOL). I hope for your pups sake that it doesn't take. But the best you can do now is keep her on a premium kibble & call the vet in a couple weeks to schedule an appt. to get her checked. Good luck to you!


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## svdreamer

Best of luck, hopefully there will be no puppies. When Twiggy went into heat, I crated her and put the crate on top of the tv stand. It's 4 feet tall. She got taken out separately to potty and run around the back yard and in the house only if she was in my lap. Having puppies would probably hurt her tremendously due to her size and disabilities. Billy is going in tomorrow to get neutered, Tico in the next 2 weeks to get done then we will have no unaltered dogs except for her and Smoke and Pepper. She is going in tomorrow to the vet to see if she still isn't a candidate for spaying. I truly hope they think she can be, I know the dangers of having an unspayed female. And I need to see if they will neuter Smoke even with his seizures and elevated liver enzymes.


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## BlessingsAbound

cprcheetah said:


> If you are going to do the mismate shot it has to be done within 48-72 hours, and it can sometimes make the dog sterile. Also it is only about 97% effective, and sometimes you can have pups born with birth defects, and it puts them at higher risk for developing pyometra.


Yes, thanks for bringing up those points. Also, ECP is not recommended if the bitch has entered diestrus and we're just about on the cut off. 

I'm not too impressed with the failure/defect rate of dexamethasone or the the low precentage of success with Parlodel or Estrumate. 

I have to be concerned with the side effects of these drugs just as much as the side effects of a litter.

I'm hoping she's late enough in her cycle and her ovum are immature enough to prevent conception!!



Brodysmom said:


> Well, what choice do you have?
> 
> You don't want to do the mismate shot.
> 
> You will be having puppies.
> 
> What else do you want to know?


I'm not sure what value you felt your comment would add. It does help me feel out this site, though. As I mentioned in my post I was hoping for anecdotal experience as well as other breeder comments pertaining to late breeding. I don't know, in fact, that I will be having puppies and I'm hoping that is not the case. What I "wanted to know" is if others had dealt with similar situations and, if so, what their outcomes were. 



Distant Hill said:


> So your having Puppies , get your girl on a high quality puppy food now ! She will need the extra calcium .
> the week before she is due to deliver have her exrayed to be sure you don't need to schedule a C-section .
> Your bitch is going to need extra supplements during this pregnancy get with your vet and work out a good program for her .
> 
> Good Luck !
> Hope all goes well with your delivery .


Thank you for your encouraing words. I appreciate the kind response. We feed Orijen and contrary to common beliefs, supplementation, especially Calcium is not advised, especially in the first few weeks. (I only mention it since not everyone realizes that too much calcium can pose risks for the pregnancy). It is recommended, though, to increase food intake and I've already added two smaller meals to aid in extra nutrition, just in case. I will definitely have her evaluated by our vet. Hopefully some cytology smears will give us a better indicator of where she is in her cycle. We've already disucssed the use of a specialist for ultrasonographic consultation for future pregnancy confirmation and monitoring so I will plan on that later in the month. I didn't think I'd be needing those services so soon!!



TripleAChihuahuas said:


> well you can pray and hope it's a miss, as breeders if we see a tie then you have options 1: misshot 2: let them tie again so less of a chance on only one pup (big cause of Csections) 3: hope and pray 4: aboration
> 
> Good luck hope everything works out for you and your girl.


Thank you! I thought about additional ties but since she's so late in her cycle she's probably already released all of the eggs she will this time anyway. I'm hoping I have the late tie on my side! Her risks of pyometra are greatly increased with MisMate being late in her cycle and I would opt for c-section over abortion so I think #3 is the way to go for now!! 



cprcheetah said:


> Oh and diapers, belly bands & crates are not good 'barriers' when trying not to breed, we had a client who's pit bull tore the crap out of his penis breeding their golden retriever through a crate. And I hear all the time how dogs get bred through diapers/belly bands. Next time maybe have the boys stay with someone else when the girls are in season. I know it was a fluke with your MIL's help but accidents can & will happen, it's nature.


I totally agree! I just use them more for accident/spraying prevention. My method is total spearation with the dogs contained in crates in their separate areas. The girls and guys get playtime out but not in the same area as the boys nor at the same time. With my older chi, Cocoa, we had a very successful heat cycle using separate areas but after this experience I think a doggie vacation is in order next time!!

And yes, my intact male that needs altered should've already been altered but his surgery was pushed back by an unexpected broken bone. We had just made the decision not to use him as a stud a few weeks before Cocoa broke her foot. His surgery is next on the agenda. And no, I don't need lectures on only owning pets you can afford. We have a monthly budget of $200 for pet expenses above and beyond the $200 we spend on their routine food, toy, and grooming needs. We just had two bouts of unexplained diarrhea in our danes (which ended up being nothing but we did full workups to make sure - $400/each) which drained our extra budget money. We'll be back on track in a month or two just for those of you who felt the need to lecture in that area. Fellow breeders or those training to breed will understand where I'm coming from...we're not afratid to spend money on our dogs and don't care for the comments from others who don't understand. Um...where is that breeder forum application?? LOL

Thanks for all the responses. I've been reluctant about joining a Chi forum. I love my Great Dane forum but a friend had a bad experience with a Chi forum and breeders, in general, are often misunderstood and poorly treated in the forum arena. I look forward to getting to know the members of this forum better!


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## BlessingsAbound

Daisydoo said:


> Views on human abortion or not get the mis mate jab it could save your puppies life!! If she becomes sterile so what!! She's alive she has puppies she could die!!
> 
> Dogs mate because they have too it's nature they will get through a crate a nappy and a belly band it's naive to think otherwise!! If he is going to be neutered the sensible thing to do would have been to do it before the bitch went into heat!!
> 
> Yes you've had an operation and recovering is never easy it would have made more sense to send one of the dogs way to someone else but anyway it's done now put your morals/religious views?? Aside were in 2010 and save your girls life


Where to begin...1) I don't believe her life is in danger. If she is, in fact, pregnant, her pregnancy will be monitored by ultrasound in a few weeks and then she will have x-rays prior to whelping. A c-section will be preformed if there are any concerns for her ability to whelp. The MisMate shot has side effects and some of them are very serious. Drugs should never be used without serious consideration. 

2) I've addressed the delayed alterating of my male in my previous post - he was still being considered for my breeding program until recently.

3) I'm not sure why my moral/religious view are so puzzling "???" It's pretty simple. I value life. I value life in 2010 just as much as I valued it 10 or 15 years ago. 

I'm not sure what kind of misinformation you've been fed but death is not the only outcome of a bitch bred too young. It's actually not even much of a risk if the pregnancy is managed by superior medical care.


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## BlessingsAbound

MChis said:


> I say save up your money & take her to the vet at day 28 post tie (they can palpate & do an u/s to see pups). Have an xray done around day 57-58 so they can count how many pups you should expect & also so they can measure her pelvis size compared to their head size. From there you will know if you should schedule a c-section or not.
> 
> I know accidents happen & there is really no way to keep them seperated safely in the same house. Next time I'd suggest either housing the boys in another place or your female. I can tell you that during her second heat Maribelle had an accidental tie with Marley (who was 7mo old) on her day 18. It was my fault 100%. I'd been great about keeping them seperated but one day everyone was snoozing (Mari was in another room double gated in) so I snuck into the bathroom for 5 minutes to shower. Opened the shower door to come out & heard Mari screaming. Ran out to find them in a tie & I nearly died. We had an u/s done at 28 weeks (there really is nothing the vet can do before then unless you were going to get the shot to prevent the pregnancy) & thankfully there were no pups.
> 
> THEN when Maya was in heat a couple months later (we were trying to get Marley neutered but his bloodwork was off so he needed meds for a few weeks before they could recheck & neuter) we left the pups...Marley was closed off in another room in a crate. The door to the room was SHUT & couldn't be opened unless the knob was turned. I was sure Maya was out of her heat (she has a super short heat of 2 weeks total but I was still playing it safe) and I kid you not we came home to them all running around together--the door that had been latched was opened. I still have no idea how the heck that happened....but where theres a will theres a way (and we know Marley can open crate doors from inside but the door knob I have NO idea!). Luckily Maya was in fact done with her heat so we were safe. I was sure no tie had occurred as they weren't interested in one another. But still. Again--our fault for having an intact male & female in the same house. I had been sure to keep them seperated because I so did NOT want to breed Maya (she is very thin framed). Marley is finally neutered & Maya will be spayed shortly. I'm SO relieved to not have any unaltered males in the house.
> 
> Anyway, we got lucky & didn't have any pups with our 2 "boo boos" (though really it was only one technical boo boo LOL). I hope for your pups sake that it doesn't take. But the best you can do now is keep her on a premium kibble & call the vet in a couple weeks to schedule an appt. to get her checked. Good luck to you!


THANK YOU, thank you, thank you for your helpful, informative, and appropriate post!!!! I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experience with a similar situation as well as the situation you encountered when you thought all was safe! I will DEFINITELY be sending my intact male away for our next heat cycle after reading that!! He actually climbed out of his go-go pen in an attempt to reach Stella this time but hasn't figured out doors yet - LOL. Still, I have enough little "helping hands" in my home that doors could easily be left open by mistake and after this situation and hearing your story I'm convinced that he needs to go on a vacation next time! (Actually, he's the stud next time around but the time after that!!). 

I'm actually going to take her in for a cytolgy smear on Tuesday to evaluate where she is in her cycle then I'll have her palpated and sent for an ultrasound in about 3-1/2-4 weeks. Keeping my fingers crossed!!!

Thanks, again, for sharing your story.


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## BlessingsAbound

svdreamer said:


> Best of luck, hopefully there will be no puppies. When Twiggy went into heat, I crated her and put the crate on top of the tv stand. It's 4 feet tall. She got taken out separately to potty and run around the back yard and in the house only if she was in my lap. Having puppies would probably hurt her tremendously due to her size and disabilities. Billy is going in tomorrow to get neutered, Tico in the next 2 weeks to get done then we will have no unaltered dogs except for her and Smoke and Pepper. She is going in tomorrow to the vet to see if she still isn't a candidate for spaying. I truly hope they think she can be, I know the dangers of having an unspayed female. And I need to see if they will neuter Smoke even with his seizures and elevated liver enzymes.


Thanks!! I'm sorry to hear your pups have health issues that contraindicate their surgery. That must be a tough situation! I'm glad to hear you've had success keeping them apart. Don't you just feel horrible for those boys, though?? LOL. They're pretty pathetic. I think for that reason alone I'll send my intact male away next time Stella goes into heat. I'm actually going to be using him at stud for Cocoa and she is due to come into heat next month so he'll have a chance to work off that frustration. Lucky, my male who will be altered, lived up to his name. Hopefully, I'll get lucky too and Stella will have been too late in her cycle to take!

Thanks for posting!! Your pups are A. DORA. BLE!!!


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## QUIGLEY'S MOM

I really know nothing about breeding. I certainly sympathize with you though. This must be so very frustrating for you! Mostly, I wanted to welcome you to the forum and look forward to hearing all the wonderful things about your fur babies!!!!


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## Yoshismom

Welcome to the board, You have come to the right place as we have some very knowledgeable members here. It sounds as if you have been doing your homework and I commend you on that. Mistakes do happen. I cannot really help much myself as I am not a breeder but just wanted to say that I hope all goes well. 

I am on a few Dane boards as well but not as active on them as I was. I am more active on a GD breeders/exhibitors list and this forum keeps me busy.


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## LovesMyPups

If you feel some of these replies were "inappropriate" (which CLEARLY you do from your replies) you should have simply ignored them. Instead, I am a little offended by your curtness to our obvious frustration. You can only expect people to be annoyed by this kind of situation, accidental or not. Also, your statement that only "breeders" know what you are talking about/are feeling makes me feel that you are already looking down on us. There are many educated people here (including Brody'sMom & DaisyDoo IMHO) even though they have choose not to breed. 
Sorry if anyone thinks this posting was out of line. Just my 2cents worth.


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## BlessingsAbound

QUIGLEY'S MOM said:


> I really know nothing about breeding. I certainly sympathize with you though. This must be so very frustrating for you! Mostly, I wanted to welcome you to the forum and look forward to hearing all the wonderful things about your fur babies!!!!


Thanks for the warm welcome! It is frustrating but I have accepted that I can't change things. Also, meeting with my vet today helped relieve a lot of my concerns! I appreciate your kind words!


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## BlessingsAbound

Yoshismom said:


> Welcome to the board, You have come to the right place as we have some very knowledgeable members here. It sounds as if you have been doing your homework and I commend you on that. Mistakes do happen. I cannot really help much myself as I am not a breeder but just wanted to say that I hope all goes well.
> 
> I am on a few Dane boards as well but not as active on them as I was. I am more active on a GD breeders/exhibitors list and this forum keeps me busy.


Thank you for the lovely welcome! I have read posts on this board in the past and overall felt it seemed like a welcoming place to be.  I'm on DOL and LOVE it there. I've noticed, though, that when you come on forums like these as a novice dog owner you are treated much differently than when you come as a breeder. I've read threads on DOL that are hurtful and judgmental to breeders and even exhibitors but I've been treated wonderfully as an owner new to the Dane breed. Funny how that is!

I'd love to see more pics of your show danes! I actually co-own my female dane, Elsa, with the breeder in case she turned out to be a show candidate but I think she's going to be too dark and "sooty" to win in the ring. Her head isn't totally to standard either and the breeder let us choose about cropping her ears and we went natural so I think she'll only be winning in our hearts!


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## Yoshismom

Yes, it is tough going on any animal forum as a breeder no matter what the species. Most love the breed so much that they are really protective over it, problem is so many people differ in what is right and wrong and who should and shouldnt breed so you run into a lot of disagreements. It is almost impossible to please everyone and their beliefs. I know people that have been showing and breeding for decades and they are still defending themselves and their practices. It is just part of it, LOL!


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## BlessingsAbound

LovesMyPups said:


> If you feel some of these replies were "inappropriate" (which CLEARLY you do from your replies) you should have simply ignored them. Instead, I am a little offended by your curtness to our obvious frustration. You can only expect people to be annoyed by this kind of situation, accidental or not. Also, your statement that only "breeders" know what you are talking about/are feeling makes me feel that you are already looking down on us. There are many educated people here (including Brody'sMom & DaisyDoo IMHO) even though they have choose not to breed.
> Sorry if anyone thinks this posting was out of line. Just my 2cents worth.


I'm sorry you've been offended by my curtness but I was clear in my original post that I was looking for those who had been through similar situations and not interested in negative comments. I felt the need to address those comments to point out that their value was limited and perhaps encourage the poster to consider his/her motive in the first place. These forums are supposed to serve as a way for like-minded individuals to come together and offer support. 

Personally, I feel it is wise to take a moment to consider what we say and why and to show grace to others. 

As for there being many educated people on here, I agree with you. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, I've followed many of Brody's Mom posts with regard to raw diet (I might be mistaken on this one because the siggy picture used to be different). DaisyDoo may be very well educated but her comments aiming to belittle my beliefs and regard them as outdated are offensive and unwarranted. Also, her comments about my male not being neutered were insensitive and didn't even take into consideration the reasons he wasn't altered prior to this heat cycle. Additionally, it's a bit alarmist to other members who may not have the courage to post about my situation but may be experiencing something similar to imply that my dog will die if she gives birth or that any first-estrus bitch that conceives will die. Education has little bearing on tact and courtesy.

Lastly, my statements about only breeders understanding was referring to the amount of money we spend on our dogs. Also, only other breeders understand the frustration of dealing with others who disagree with breeding or even with fellow breeders as we try to establish our own program. It is not a welcoming place to be. I don't feel superior to anyone here! I'm actually still mentoring with a breeder and consider myself a complete novice! I'm quite sure I have plenty to learn and was hoping this would be one venue to gain that knowledge. If you inferred I was looking down, it may be because you had already taken a defensive position and it's difficult to distinguish the author's tone via posts/written text. If you knew me in person you would know I do not treat others as of lesser importance nor do I feel myself better or above anyone. Every life has value and I feel we can learn just as much from a professor as we can from our own children! 

In all honesty, I don't understand your frustration nor do I expect others to be annoyed. My situation doesn't affect the general population at large or you in particular. I can't even imagine why you'd be annoyed by an accident. If I were to post that I keep 30 chihuahuas in my back yard and now 6 of them are pregnant even though they're under one year, then, yes, I could understand a universal feeling of frustration. My situation was unique, isolated, and completely accidental. Also, I'm aiming to address how it happened and find ways to prevent it from happening in the future as well as ensure the outcome is a healthy and sound one for everyone involved. 

I do, however, welcome your 2 cents and don't feel you were inapproprate to post. You felt offended and that wasn't my intent so hopefully I've been able to address your feelings. I certainly can't change them but I am sorry if I've offended others. I feel that standing up for oneself and defending one's beliefs is crucial in today's climate. Our society has become one centered on self and it seems as if we've forgotten how to build up one another and encourage positive changes. We've become so technically minded and hide behind tweets, posts, e-mails, and IMs that we've forgotten it's real people behind those screens and real emotions that are affected. 

I am hopeful by the PMs I've received and other posts here that this IS a community interested in lifiting others up in encouragement and support. I hope to provide similar encouragement to others when the situations arise.


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## BlessingsAbound

Yoshismom said:


> Yes, it is tough going on any animal forum as a breeder no matter what the species. Most love the breed so much that they are really protective over it, problem is so many people differ in what is right and wrong and who should and shouldnt breed so you run into a lot of disagreements. It is almost impossible to please everyone and their beliefs. I know people that have been showing and breeding for decades and they are still defending themselves and their practices. It is just part of it, LOL!


Well put!! LOL I chuckle when I see DOL's byline "Contraversial since 1999". It's funny because I can understand so many different sides of the argument too. I believe it's one of those subjects that would fall under, "Live and let Live!".

I chose Blessings Abound as my kennel name and hope that if it ever stops being a blessing to my family, the breed, and others I will know it's time to move on! I'm actually hoping to use breeding as a way to place shelter animals too. With a limited availability, I'm hoping to bring in pet seekers and point them in the direction of adoptable pets when I don't have puppies (or even when I do if their situation isn't suited for a puppy/chi). I'm working with our local shelter now and hope to get connected with a Chihuahua rescue soon. 

So....Dane pics??!! Would love to see that gorgeous Harle a little better!!!


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## chideb

BlessingsAbound said:


> Our society has become one centered on self and it seems as if we've forgotten how to build up one another and encourage positive changes. We've become so technically minded and hide behind tweets, posts, e-mails, and IMs that we've forgotten it's real people behind those screens and real emotions that are affected.


Unfortunately, this is true more often than some realize. It is quite alright to disagree, offer your personal opinion, and even be disappointed in people and situations... but these things can be said in a way that is representative of the person we strive to be and the one we want the world to know. I am a "work in progress," and I for one needed to be reminded of that.

Welcome to the group, Christina... and I look foward to getting to know you and your furbabies. 
Blessings, Deb


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## BlessingsAbound

chideb said:


> Unfortunately, this is true more often than some realize. It is quite alright to disagree, offer your personal opinion, and even be disappointed in people and situations... but these things can be said in a way that is representative of the person we strive to be and the one we want the world to know. I am a "work in progress," and I for one needed to be reminded of that.
> 
> Welcome to the group, Christina... and I look foward to getting to know you and your furbabies.
> Blessings, Deb


Thanks, Deb! I look forward to getting to know you too.  I, too, am a work in progress and I will gladly boast of my weaknesses... (2 cor 12:9)


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## rache

Hi

Oh my i know what your going thru, almost. My little girl Pixie is in around the middle of her first heat and omgoodness its been trying. Darcy my intact male (6 months) is going completely nuts trying to get to her. Im keeping them separated but with 4 children in the house and not having eyes in the back of my head its been near on impossible to keep them apart 100% of the time. They havent tied because I have always been quick enough to catch them together but i swear i havent relaxed for 2 weeks now! Darcy is not going to be neutered incase I decide to show him but as Pixie is tiny (3 1/2lbs) I will be getting her spayed after her heat is finished. 

I have hated this time while shes in heat, shes been grumpy, humping my other bitch and my other male who is neutered! Its been an absolute nightmare! 

I hope things work out for you and your bitch isnt pregnant this time.

Good Luck x


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## 18453

I wasn't aiming to belittle your beliefs at all I was merely making a point that human reproduction is totally different to canine, 'we' as humans make the decision to reproduce canines don't, they HAVE to when a bitch is in heat she nor intact males can do anything but mate it is down to us as their owners to keep them apart until they are ready for breeding and a stud has been chosen wisely. 

I could get into a pro life debate but I won't - FYI I come from a very strict catholic background so it is more than likely I was raised to have some of the same beliefs as you.. I am just a little more open minded.

And pregnant puppies can/do die it puts a huge strain on their bodies which are not fully developed. C sections are a high percentage in chihuahuas as it is so I would have thought that the percentage would rise if the bitch is still a puppy! 

Your situation may not effect the general population but this forum isn't the general population it's a population of chihuahua lovers a lot of us really care about our breed and want to look after it and better it as much as we can

There has been a lot of breedings recently on this forum that have gone horribly wrong and not many that have been a success!! Some of those are very experienced breeders and it was heart breaking for everyone others don't deserve the title of breeder so I hope now you can understand why some of us are extremely frustrated that this has happened when it could have easily been prevented.

My comment regarding your male not being neutered was warranted and can't really see how it can be deemed offensive.. All I said was the sensible thing to do was neuter him before her heat! It came down to finances at the end of the day because unfortunately your other dog broke a leg/foot (I can't remember) so it ha to be put on the back burner which normally I would understand but when you have a puppy in heat to me it just seems absurd not to totally separate them if he's not neutered!! The cost of a c section (and ibreally hope for her sake she isn't pregnant) will be far higher than a neuter!!

Anyway like I said before what's done is done


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## jessicao32

I am sorry they tied. I never trust wrap or girl diapers. As the can get out of them and still tie no matter what. I am sorry about your family member letting them out together. I would say you can keep them apart or let them breed a few more time to insure she is pg so she wont have just one puppy. One puppy can lead to c section. My friend had a tiny who she didnt want breed and well it got breed and she planned a c section she had 3 wonderful puppies all lived. So its a guessing game. If i was in your show I would breed a few more time and just watch her close and on day 50 of her pregnancy I would take her in for x rays to see how big her birth area is and how big the puppies heads are. I would never give them that shot JMO...my best thing i would do let them know to let boys out first for a awhile than bring them back in and let the girls out to play never let them together. I always did this and it worked great. I had 2 males intacted and 4 females....so i just had them take turns...again i am sorry and i hope you make the right choice for your self and chihuahua...


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## BlessingsAbound

rache said:


> Hi
> 
> Oh my i know what your going thru, almost. My little girl Pixie is in around the middle of her first heat and omgoodness its been trying. Darcy my intact male (6 months) is going completely nuts trying to get to her. Im keeping them separated but with 4 children in the house and not having eyes in the back of my head its been near on impossible to keep them apart 100% of the time. They havent tied because I have always been quick enough to catch them together but i swear i havent relaxed for 2 weeks now! Darcy is not going to be neutered incase I decide to show him but as Pixie is tiny (3 1/2lbs) I will be getting her spayed after her heat is finished.
> 
> I have hated this time while shes in heat, shes been grumpy, humping my other bitch and my other male who is neutered! Its been an absolute nightmare!
> 
> I hope things work out for you and your bitch isnt pregnant this time.
> 
> Good Luck x


Thanks! Someone on this thread mentioned that they put their bitch in a crate and then elevated it (tv stand, I think) which might work nicely in your situation. You could even use a purse style carrier and keep her with you from room to room. 

Up until now, I haven't had an issue keeping the boys and girls completely separate but as I can see, it only takes one mistake!! The best advice I've read is to send the males away and for me, that might be feasible but I know a lot of breeders who couldn't do that for every heat (or they might as well not own a stud dog at all). 

Also, is one of your children old enough to help with keeping them separated? I've enlisted my gang (right down to the 3 year old) to be watch dogs and whistle blowers with the dogs. I woudln't rely solely on them, but the extra eyes have proven helpful at times. You could even make it a game and give out security badges for littler ones...

Good luck to you! Keep us posted on how little Pixie reacts after her heat. My other female had a pseudopregnancy (which we knew was pseudo but was still quite surprising to witness) after her first heat cycle and took the full diestrus to recover.


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## BlessingsAbound

Daisydoo said:


> I wasn't aiming to belittle your beliefs at all I was merely making a point that human reproduction is totally different to canine, 'we' as humans make the decision to reproduce canines don't, they HAVE to when a bitch is in heat she nor intact males can do anything but mate it is down to us as their owners to keep them apart until they are ready for breeding and a stud has been chosen wisely.


Yes, this is a good point. We, as breeders, take the mating into our hands and it is ultimately our fault when things go wrong!



Daisydoo said:


> I could get into a pro life debate but I won't - FYI I come from a very strict catholic background so it is more than likely I was raised to have some of the same beliefs as you.. I am just a little more open minded.


Pro-Life is a sensitive topic. Being a rape victim myself, I have had to face one of the extremes of this debate and I can only say I support life and my faith leads me to believe that I am not the one ultimately in control. I was blessed that my decision to refuse abortifacient options didn't result in a pregnancy but had it, I'm sure it would've been used for a blessing too!! I'm sorry to hear you are from a strict religious background. I have several friends who have just recently been able to return to the core of their faith because the way they were introduced (catholic and protestant, alike) was harsh, legalistic, and not at all the way the Christian faith was intended. I, too, was brought up in a strict religious environment and I strayed for quite some time before realizing that it was my parents misunderstanding of the faith and not the faith itselt that was to blame. Now, my faith is one of a relationship with love and grace not rules and regulations. Being closed-minded is one of the bigges mistakes Christians make. Sometimes, we can be so guarded of our beliefs that we failt to see others' perspectives and where they are in their journey. I try to stay in a place of openess balanced with living by the truths I beleive. I will pray that you will recieve healing from any "religion" that was placed upon you and perhaps be given an opportunity to have the relationship I speak of (if you don't already have one). 
:love7:



Daisydoo said:


> And pregnant puppies can/do die it puts a huge strain on their bodies which are not fully developed. C sections are a high percentage in chihuahuas as it is so I would have thought that the percentage would rise if the bitch is still a puppy!


Absolutely!! And, worded this way, it serves as a warning and reminder to others. Well said.



Daisydoo said:


> Your situation may not effect the general population but this forum isn't the general population it's a population of chihuahua lovers a lot of us really care about our breed and want to look after it and better it as much as we can
> 
> There has been a lot of breedings recently on this forum that have gone horribly wrong and not many that have been a success!! Some of those are very experienced breeders and it was heart breaking for everyone others don't deserve the title of breeder so I hope now you can understand why some of us are extremely frustrated that this has happened when it could have easily been prevented.


That makes perfect sense!! Being new here, I wasn't aware that this has been an issue/trend. I couldn't see, at first, why my situation would be so frustrating but hearing that it's a recurring issue with breeders who, in theory, should be more careful and judicious than the average pet owner, makes me realize why others would be annoyed and frustrated. I'm thinking of starting a thread (when I have access to the breeder's section) about ways to prevent accidental matings and even and informational area (there may already be one) with info/studies/etc. about the options and outcomes. I'm sure there is a wealth of combined experience that could help novices like myself if collected and readily available. 



Daisydoo said:


> My comment regarding your male not being neutered was warranted and can't really see how it can be deemed offensive.. All I said was the sensible thing to do was neuter him before her heat! It came down to finances at the end of the day because unfortunately your other dog broke a leg/foot (I can't remember) so it ha to be put on the back burner which normally I would understand but when you have a puppy in heat to me it just seems absurd not to totally separate them if he's not neutered!! The cost of a c section (and ibreally hope for her sake she isn't pregnant) will be far higher than a neuter!!


Yes, I was probably being a little sensitive about that. I thought it was insensitive of you to comment witout knowing the facts surrounding the situation but I was also feeling defensive realizing that, in fact, had I not delayed the surgery, this couldn't have happened. I was going on past experience that I was able to successfully keep two intact males away from my other female during her heat cycle so I didn't feel like I was being irresponsible at the time. I think I will be able to send my stud male away the next time it's necessary but I know of a few breeders who feel it isn't practical to send their dogs away every time a bitch is in heat. I wonder what the safe alternative is, since I've read a post here about dogs getting out from behind closed doors and, seeing the tenacity of my dogs, I can understand that. Again, this is an area where breeder experience might have more suggestions/alternatives. Overall, I think I was responding defensively based on the tone of the post because you make a good point suggesting the male should've been altered in the first place!! 



Daisydoo said:


> Anyway like I said before what's done is done


Yes, that is true! I am hopeful that this situation will be used for good - for me and for others. 

Thank you for taking the time to clarify your original post. I really do appreciate it!


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## LittleHead

I can understand why so DaisyDoo is so passionate about the situation you're in; many years ago, I had a chihuahua (Daisy) who was in her first heat and she tied with my chihuahua; he wasn't really "big and bulky" his frame was very skinny, but poor Daisy was a petite little thing and this was her FIRST cycle. I was maybe 8 or 9 (I'm now 22) and didn't know a thing about chihuahuas or anything that was going on with them.

Daisy got pregnant on that FIRST try and had 3 puppies in her. Poor baby girl ballooned up and was sooo big, I remember the day she started pushing; she tried and tried, but those pups were so big. we took her to vet, and later found out that 1 pup was definitely dead already. He did a C-Section on her and none of the pups survived and Daisy BARELY did. We took her home later on and just kept an eye on her. She literally looked like she was barely breathing, her eyes were so glazed and she didn't move a bit, just laid. I had a stethoscope and I used it to keep a check on her heartbeat and during the 3rd or 4th time, I heard nothing. It was my first time crying over the loss of a pet and completely traumatized me.

My story isn't encouraging, but I hope you understand why people get so passionately upset over things like this, because bad situations like mine DO happen.


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## 17428

I knew a pug breeder in the 80`s that had her
dogs on 3 separate levels of her victorian house.
She was one of the biggest breeders in that state.
Her champ male is on most pug pedigrees today.
They had their backyard chain linked off in
sections for each gender.Well she had a sneaky
bitch in heat and her champ black pug bred her
thru the chainlink fence.She said they can be real "acrobats".
I would never have mixed sex dogs.Buy a breeder/show
quality bitch and have her bred out to a champ stud.
Thats the only way to do it.It keeps your lines healthier too.
I realize this was accidental and she has her hands full big time.
Have to give her credit for that though.
I couldnt handle that much on my plate!


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## BlessingsAbound

jessicao32 said:


> I am sorry they tied. I never trust wrap or girl diapers. As the can get out of them and still tie no matter what. I am sorry about your family member letting them out together. I would say you can keep them apart or let them breed a few more time to insure she is pg so she wont have just one puppy. One puppy can lead to c section. My friend had a tiny who she didnt want breed and well it got breed and she planned a c section she had 3 wonderful puppies all lived. So its a guessing game. If i was in your show I would breed a few more time and just watch her close and on day 50 of her pregnancy I would take her in for x rays to see how big her birth area is and how big the puppies heads are. I would never give them that shot JMO...my best thing i would do let them know to let boys out first for a awhile than bring them back in and let the girls out to play never let them together. I always did this and it worked great. I had 2 males intacted and 4 females....so i just had them take turns...again i am sorry and i hope you make the right choice for your self and chihuahua...


Thanks! I need to clarify the statement about the diaper and wrap. It sounds like I let them out with these as protection but I was actually just describing how I found them. I only use the diapers as protection from staining and the wrap to keep my males from spraying when they're out having their playtime. So, the fact that Stella had her diaper on and my male didn't means that he wasn't let out for playtime and shouldn't have been out at all...in my head I was thinking, "what's going on here" and probably could have left out those details when explaining what happened! I've been taking pain medication to help with complications from surgery last week so I'm not thinking/writing as clearly as I usually do!! LOL

I'm going to add to/clarify my original post so others don't read it and think, "diapers and wraps - theres's an idea" because they don't provide ANY protection against mating!! 

I also use your approach and, in the past, it's worked. I keep my males and female not in heat in a pen in a separate room from my female in heat, who is also crated and separated. Then, for play time, the girls go out (girl in heat wears a diaper to protect furniture) and then the boys get their turn (wearing wraps to prevent marking) once the girls are put back. Potty time is also separate. I think my mother-in-law was probably loving on Lucky (she'll pick up dogs in the pen from time to time to snuggle them or hold them for a few minutes - it's in the kitchen so while she's cleaning up or waiting on food to cook) and she probably got distracted and let him jump down instead of putting him back in the pen. She wasn't exactly forthcoming about how it happened and she doesn't speak English all that well (they're Portuguese). She's also the proud, old-school European type that doesn't own up to mistakes all too easily. I really didn't push the issue since she came all the way down here from Massachusetts to help take care of things during my surgery and was doing all of the cooking and cleaning for 4 adults and 7 children. I tried to put myself in her shoes and didn't feel it worth it to play the blame game!

I did consider and discuss with my mentor the option of additional ties but since it was day 19 of her cycle the likelihood was that all of her eggs had been realeased anyway. Had it been day 12 or 14, I probably would've arranged additional ties with one of my mentor's stud who is TINY and hoped for the best. I'm actually glad I didn't have to make that decision on top of everything else!

My vet agreed that the ECP wasn't the best option in our case. We discussed prostaglandin (Lutalyse) injections but her feeling was to take the wait and see approach with palpation and ultrasound around 28-30 days post tie. That was my plan as well so we were in agreement there. My vet spent a lot of time with us (about an hour and 15 minutes!) and discussed similar cases as well as possible outcomes and treatments. I left feeling reassured and optimistic. 

Thanks so much for posting! I'm glad to hear of your friend's positive outcome and I'm praying for one here too!!


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## BlessingsAbound

Dahlia`s MaMa said:


> .Buy a breeder/show
> quality bitch and have her bred out to a champ stud.
> Thats the only way to do it.It keeps your lines healthier too.
> I realize this was accidental and she has her hands full big time.
> Have to give her credit for that though.
> I couldnt handle that much on my plate!


Yeah, I considered studding out every time too. I had the opportunity to take both a male and female (different litters) that had potential and they're both being evaluated by a handler later this month so perhaps if she's not impressed with my male we can just make him a pet instead. 

I'm still learning and training and at the end of the day, I may even decide that breeding isn't for us too. Time will tell...in the mean time, I've learned from the stories on here that these little guys are quite amazing at finding each other when the urge arises!!


----------



## BlessingsAbound

LittleHead said:


> I can understand why so DaisyDoo is so passionate about the situation you're in; many years ago, I had a chihuahua (Daisy) who was in her first heat and she tied with my chihuahua; he wasn't really "big and bulky" his frame was very skinny, but poor Daisy was a petite little thing and this was her FIRST cycle. I was maybe 8 or 9 (I'm now 22) and didn't know a thing about chihuahuas or anything that was going on with them.
> 
> Daisy got pregnant on that FIRST try and had 3 puppies in her. Poor baby girl ballooned up and was sooo big, I remember the day she started pushing; she tried and tried, but those pups were so big. we took her to vet, and later found out that 1 pup was definitely dead already. He did a C-Section on her and none of the pups survived and Daisy BARELY did. We took her home later on and just kept an eye on her. She literally looked like she was barely breathing, her eyes were so glazed and she didn't move a bit, just laid. I had a stethoscope and I used it to keep a check on her heartbeat and during the 3rd or 4th time, I heard nothing. It was my first time crying over the loss of a pet and completely traumatized me.
> 
> My story isn't encouraging, but I hope you understand why people get so passionately upset over things like this, because bad situations like mine DO happen.


I'm SO sorry you had to experience that - and at such a young age. I appreciate you posting, though, because it is a reality. The more I think about it, the more I realize and understand why DaisyDoo and others would be frustrated to hear about my situation. It really comes from a place of care and concern for the tiny creatures we CHOOSE to love and care for and are helpless without us. 

I really, truly, felt I was informed, educated, researched, and capable to handle our situation but I now realize that the only way to have totally prevented it would've been by not having an intact male in the first place. I honestly thought I was protecting her and even though I'm considering breeding, these are our family pets. They sleep in our beds, follow us around (apart from a heat cycle when things are a little more locked down), and are pets! We LOVE our animals right down to the stinky ferrets - lol. It saddens me to know I let her down. I'm frustrated with myself that I did just keep Stella in bed with me in my room while my mother-in-law was here. I thought by keeping our previous set up (during our last heat) we would be ensuring that things went smoothly. I guess I feel like I'm frustrated, disappointed, and annoyed enough with myself already and was hoping to find encouragement and support from others..., ya know?

I can only hope and pray that she didn't conceive. If she did, I am hopeful that technology and medicine has advanced some and will be able to keep her safe and healthy. I do realize, though, that her life could be in jeopardy much like your little Daisy. I pray our outcome will be different and I thank you for sharing your story!


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## Terri

Hmmmm after reading some of your replies to people especially Sarah/Daisydoo.
I feel they come off as condecending too.
For such a religous person that is a bit of a surprise.
I too come from a catholic background, not that i ram it down anyones throat or even really practice it nowadays anyway..... but i dont need anyone to pray for me as am sure Sarah doesnt either. lol

As for the topic at hand, it's too late really, so i just hope the little one isnt pregnant, but if she is that she comes through it safe and sound.


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## 17428

I agree with Terri......
we all wish that this goes well for
mom and she has healthy & gorgeous pups!


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## Yoshismom

It is funny as I havent found her to be condecending at all? In fact I have found her posts refreshing and not argumentative and she can admit when she is wrong. I think that is awesome. It is so hard to tell what one is meaning from typing so lets give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I feel she is genuinely sensitive to the situations she is hearing and just has a good heart.


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## Terri

Yeah well we are all entitled to our opinions i guess.
I wasnt the only one thinking along those lines though so there is something in that to me.
There is a way of doing it too without being obvious. IMO 
Each to their own.


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## 17428

Terri!


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## YoQuiero

Yoshismom said:


> It is funny as I havent found her to be condecending at all? In fact I have found her posts refreshing and not argumentative and she can admit when she is wrong. I think that is awesome. It is so hard to tell what one is meaning from typing so lets give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I feel she is genuinely sensitive to the situations she is hearing and just has a good heart.


I agree completely!


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## Brodysmom

You have made a real effort to understand why we reacted the way we did. Or I should speak for myself. The way I did and that's because, as was pointed out, we have seen things go terribly wrong with breeding. Over and Over and Over.

The latest on this board was a sweet girl who was "accidentally" bred 6 months ago and had a litter of mixed puppies. Ok - so things happen. Then she was "accidentally" bred AGAIN on her next season and she DIED after the puppies were born. Those poor babies were hand raised successfully, so I do give some credit where credit is due. That was hard work to raise those babies with no mom. But my gosh - I was soooooooo frustrated to hear of this happening. Not just once but twice. It was heartbreaking.

We have had several instances of fading puppy syndrome where we all just have to sit back and watch puppies slowly fade away and die over several days. No cause. No reason. It's so sad to sign on and see that ANOTHER baby from the litter has passed away.

Breeding isn't easy. It is hard. The only reason to breed is to improve the breed, and from what I have read, you are on that path. I'm glad about that.

I did have to raise an eyebrow on your choice to keep an intact male. Unless he was a finished champion, there's really no need to have an intact male. Most breeders will opt for a finished stud dog outside their lines or one that compliments their bitch. It's RARE for someone to just "happen" to have a dog that suits ALL their ladies? That smacks of BYB to me. Just my opinion of course. With the dog show world being a small one, and frozen semen being a very viable and popular option, there's really no need to have a stud dog in house. Just makes it very convenient (too convenient) to use him.

I believe that since your bitch was bred on day 19 the chances of her being pregnant are slim. I hope she's not. How old is she? But IF she is pregnant, you can count on the people here helping you out. (Where is Lisa BTW?) This is a GREAT community of people who truly care about the breed and about it's future. If we didn't, we would all be sitting back clapping our hands at your accidental breeding and hoping for puppies. That wouldn't be right, would it?

Any time the subject of breeding is raised, it gets hot in here. It's just the way it is. People have strong opinions. But certainly each person is worthy of having their voice heard. We can all learn from one another if we are open minded. 

This is a wonderful community. You'd have to look far and hard to find another message board with the knowledge base and caring you will find here. I, for one, hope you will stay. 

If you stick around, and I hope you do, we MUST see pics of your crew. It's a requirement. :coolwink:


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## 17428

Well said Tracy!


> If you stick around, and I hope you do, we MUST see pics of your crew. It's a requirement.


LOL!!


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## 18453

Why are your dogs being assessed by a handler?? I'm English so things maybe done differently here but the way it's done over here is 'we' find a pup with potential train it and if it meets the standard 'we' start showing at 6 months and go from there althi it's extremely hard to get a champion in the uk.

My 4 month old came from a show breeder who is also a chi judge and 2 out of the litter were in her opinion show quality at 12 weeks one being mine another her litter brother. Obviously at 6 months I'll know whether she is show quality.

Any Tom **** or Harry can handle a dog over here once they know what they're doing there are a few handlers on here and even a judge.. All their dogs are crufts qualified. I don't understand how the opinion of a handler makes the decision of whether your dogs are breed worthy?? 

So I suppose what I'm saying is rather than a handler which could be Joe bloggs off the street isn't it better to have a judge look over them and tell you if they are a good example of the breed or even better show them yourself I'm assuming they're over 6 months so there's nit need to wait especially when a judge would technically (lol) know more than a handler

Tbh the entire religion thing going on here is making me feel incredibly awkward I don't do religion I never will whilst I believe everyone has their own beliefs I fins it really uncomfortable having it sprawled all over a chihuahua forum


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## Yoshismom

When looking for a handler for my Dane, I went with one of the best around and she requires looking at your dog to see if she feels like he will do well in the ring. Once she sees this she decides whether or not she will take them on. There are some people that have a dog they think is nice and ask a handlers advice on them, some breeders will tell you anything to sale you a pup so if you want to show whether just for fun or for real then going to a handler can be a benefit. I am not sure what the case is here or if either but just explaining how things are done in US sometimes.

The religion thing can be controversial but if it is one's beliefs no matter what religion or if none, it is still a public board and therefore freedom of speech. Not trying to be mean but if there is talk that bothers someone they should just ignore it. There have been things said on here and things done on here that I felt sick to my stomach over and was bothered greatly over but I just ignored it as there is nothing we can really do about it :-(

I hope I havent offended anyone in asking for people to pray for my situations but those prayers are important to me


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## cprcheetah

Depending on the breed in the US it is VERY competetive, I know my sister shows Standard Poodles and unless you are a handler, it may take a very long time to show/finish your dog. There is a show in Boise this weekend that my sister could have gone too but she chose not to as one of the top handlers in the country is there, and a lot of the top dogs in the country go to this show, and no one usually wins but the top handlers, so it's kind of a waste of time/money to go as you are just giving points to this handlers dogs as sometimes it feels like he could have a pet in a pet cut and still would win lol. Having a handler evaluate your dog is a very common practice here, as many have been showing/breeding for years and will give you an 'honest' opinion on your dog, I know my sisters Standard poodles she's had a handler look at and one had a short tail so she told her that he would be difficult to finish, my sister got him 'pointed out' (8 pts) then sent him to a handler for his majors. It took 4 years to finish him.


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## 18453

Interesting... Can you not just ask a a judge? You can have THE perfect dog who won't show so it doesn't mean they aren't breed worthy just two aren't a show off in the ring so really oy a judge should be able to tell you if they are breed worthy? Idk I'm just thinking

No it hasn't.. But it just has got a bit in your face recently this thread included and there's like quotes everywhere the lord is with you blah blah blah and I think people need to remember that there are so many faiths out there and some of us do not believe at all and in all honestly it can make you feel really really uncomfortable!! I suppose the way I see it is if there was someone who worshipped Satan and started posting their stuff and ramming it down people throats it'd be a whole different story and I don't think that's fair! 

A lot of irresponsible stuff has gone on here over the last few months and I'm shocked how nice people have been some ignore but I don't think being nice is good all the time some people do not realise what they have done is wrong and won't learn/understand if not told!


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## flippedstars

Daisydoo said:


> No it hasn't.. But it just has got a bit in your face recently this thread included and there's like quotes everywhere the lord is with you blah blah blah and I think people need to remember that there are so many faiths out there and some of us do not believe at all and in all honestly it can make you feel really really uncomfortable!! I suppose the way I see it is if there was someone who worshipped Satan and started posting their stuff and ramming it down people throats it'd be a whole different story and I don't think that's fair!




I would say she has a point, lol. I am all for freedom of speech, but there's quite a few people on here that would be livid if someone was posting "All hail satan" or something like that on their posts LOL. 

Someone named their dog God on here awhile back and no one was too pleased.


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## Yoshismom

We have people here that are into Wicken (I believe that is the proper term) as well as other things that go far away from christianity, etc... and have had conversations about it in the past. It made me uncomfortable so I just ignored. If comments on people's siggies and such are uncomfortable use the ignore button. It is just part of being on a forum. No favortisms as there cannot be. I know it may feel that way at times but it is not. The board is a melting pot of people so to speak and they are coming from everywhere. You never know what is behind someones situation even mental illness could play a role. Some people lie to get attention. Some are just from areas that we do not understand. We have to deal with everything on a day to day basis and take ALL things into consideration. I will agree with you that there has been a lot of negativity on the board lately and not just coming from new members?

A great quote I heard the other day that has been on my mind a lot is...."Treat each person kindly as you do not know what they are dealing with in their life" I think that is how it goes? not sure the author either but you get the idea. When people lash out at you, make fun of you, etc... you do not know what kind of place they are in? Their could be much tragedy or illness behind it.

We as mods feel that you do not have to be mean to people to get them to stop doing something dangerous or frowned upon, you can do it gently. Most people do not respond well to being told what to do and usually will leave and do it anyway just to spite. It is better to educate than to lash out or belittle someone. As frustrating as it may be


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## Yoshismom

I wasnt to pleased over that either but you didnt here me say anything. I found it offensive but my hands were tied. 

I cant stop anyone from voicing their concerns about those threads and as long as it doesnt get out of hand we really cannot say one thing or the other. At least you guys have the option to ignore


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## flippedstars

I tend to agree that people should be able to say as they feel. Most of us here will offer up an "I'll pray for you" but I totally understand that is not the way some people swing and I completely respect that. I don't think thats the issue either. Prayer, thoughts, whatever, we all appreciate the good energy or whatever you want to label it, when our babies are down and out. I think it should be easy enough to ignore certain religious statements, but I thought about how I'd feel if someone was giving the devil props, LOL, and I understand where Sarah (Daisydoo) is coming from. To each his or her own, I guess.


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## 18453

Ignoring isn't good honestly and I hate taking over a thread sometimes I think u guys are too soft!!! Educating is good and I try my hardest to educate people but some people are just ignorant and can't see it!! It's crap at the end of the day if someones an idiot they are an idiot!!

Wican is like witchcraft if I am correct they are more spiritual than religious and aren't into anything dark so to speak! 

But I would lay money on it if someone started posting about Satan the thread would be locked in minutes coz of the uproar!!!! Which really wouldn't be fair!! 

I don't see the point in ignoring people or their religious beliefs when the stuff about their dog could be quite interesting just having quotes from the bible everywhere are a bit much anyway I've digressed i hope the puppy isn't pregnant


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## Yoshismom

We are not to soft but for us to take one side or the other would be inappropriate of a mod if you think about it. Who makes the call who is right or wrong? It is all down to peoples personal opinions, it frustrates me to no end on a lot of breeding practices but it is just my opinion on whether it is right or wrong. We can only step in if it gets ugly, from name calling, bullying, etc... If I banned or closed threads just because I didnt like the way people talked or didnt like the things they did, then I would be playing favortisms. If I judged everyone that became a member on whether or not I liked them before I even got to know them then that isnt fair either. Those same people may believe in their mind that you guys are ignorant as well, just because they/you think so or many think so still doesnt make it right ;-)

When I make these posts it is in hopes that you guys will understand how your train of thought may not be everyones and I always hope you will understand why we do what we do or dont do what you guys think we should. We have to be fair to everyone 

To the OP, I am sorry that this post has been hijacked, LOL! it does happen from time to time so my apologies


----------



## BlessingsAbound

Terri said:


> Hmmmm after reading some of your replies to people especially Sarah/Daisydoo.
> I feel they come off as condecending too.
> For such a religous person that is a bit of a surprise.
> ..... but i dont need anyone to pray for me as am sure Sarah doesnt either. lol


I'm sorry that I've come across that way to some members here. I'm not sure what else I can say...



Dahlia`s MaMa said:


> we all wish that this goes well for
> mom and she has healthy & gorgeous pups!


Thank you! Even better would be no pups!!



Yoshismom said:


> It is funny as I havent found her to be condecending at all? In fact I have found her posts refreshing and not argumentative and she can admit when she is wrong. I think that is awesome. It is so hard to tell what one is meaning from typing so lets give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I feel she is genuinely sensitive to the situations she is hearing and just has a good heart.


Thank you! I try to be sensitive and have a good heart but I'm human too. 



Brodysmom said:


> You have made a real effort to understand why we reacted the way we did. Or I should speak for myself. The way I did and that's because, as was pointed out, we have seen things go terribly wrong with breeding. Over and Over and Over.
> 
> The latest on this board was a sweet girl who was "accidentally" bred 6 months ago and had a litter of mixed puppies. Ok - so things happen. Then she was "accidentally" bred AGAIN on her next season and she DIED after the puppies were born. Those poor babies were hand raised successfully, so I do give some credit where credit is due. That was hard work to raise those babies with no mom. But my gosh - I was soooooooo frustrated to hear of this happening. Not just once but twice. It was heartbreaking.


That IS heartbreaking and sickening!



Brodysmom said:


> We have had several instances of fading puppy syndrome where we all just have to sit back and watch puppies slowly fade away and die over several days. No cause. No reason. It's so sad to sign on and see that ANOTHER baby from the litter has passed away.
> 
> Breeding isn't easy. It is hard. The only reason to breed is to improve the breed, and from what I have read, you are on that path. I'm glad about that


This has happened while I've been mentoring and there is NOTHING that can be done! Even the necropsy showed absolutelly nothing. That is the part of breeding I'm no so keen on (which is why I'm still mentoring and considering!)

I do hope to improve the breed and introduce some new Champion lines to the gene pool...that, however, remains to be seen!



Brodysmom said:


> I did have to raise an eyebrow on your choice to keep an intact male. Unless he was a finished champion, there's really no need to have an intact male. Most breeders will opt for a finished stud dog outside their lines or one that compliments their bitch. It's RARE for someone to just "happen" to have a dog that suits ALL their ladies? That smacks of BYB to me. Just my opinion of course. With the dog show world being a small one, and frozen semen being a very viable and popular option, there's really no need to have a stud dog in house. Just makes it very convenient (too convenient) to use him.


Once Lucky is altered I will only have the one male and he was chosen for my other female. I already have a stud dog chosen for Stella should she do well in her evaluation. I also have hopes of finishing Charlie and studding him out -he's such a lovely dog!! Beautiful apple head, perfect 90 degree stop and a coat that is to die for - a super long coat with thick undercoat! At just under 7 months the fur around his ruff is over 5 inches long and he has full pants and an already well developed plume and ear fringe. He's also a deep black color which I've heard through the rumor mill is doing well in the ring right now. With only two ladies, he actually would suit both in different ways but he and Stella have the same father and I'm not comfortable with genetics or the ethics to line breed at this stage in the game (not saying there may or may not be a place for it - I just don't know enough to go there!). 



Brodysmom said:


> I believe that since your bitch was bred on day 19 the chances of her being pregnant are slim. I hope she's not. How old is she? But IF she is pregnant, you can count on the people here helping you out. (Where is Lisa BTW?) This is a GREAT community of people who truly care about the breed and about it's future. If we didn't, we would all be sitting back clapping our hands at your accidental breeding and hoping for puppies. That wouldn't be right, would it?


I am hoping for those slim chances!! (I mistyped in one of my posts it was day 18 but still, late the cycle). She is just under 7 months.  Actually she and Charlie have the same birth date although they're from different mothers! They were born February 23, 2010. 

Thank you for being willing to support us (and NOT hoping for puppies!!) ;-)



Brodysmom said:


> Any time the subject of breeding is raised, it gets hot in here. It's just the way it is. People have strong opinions. But certainly each person is worthy of having their voice heard. We can all learn from one another if we are open minded.
> 
> This is a wonderful community. You'd have to look far and hard to find another message board with the knowledge base and caring you will find here. I, for one, hope you will stay.
> 
> If you stick around, and I hope you do, we MUST see pics of your crew. It's a requirement. :coolwink:01|


I figured breeding would be a contraversial issue. I'm trying to learn and discern how to do this the right way so I hope to learn from others here too!

Pictures are NOT a problem - LOL! I dabble in photography but I'll tell you, children are easier subjects than dogs! I do, however, have plenty of pictures of both! I actually just had my son snap a shot of Charlie and my other female, Cocoa snuggling on my shoulder as I type...I'll post it at the bottom...



Daisydoo said:


> Why are your dogs being assessed by a handler??


He's now at the age where he can be shown and a good handler is about the only way to get a fast finish! The others on here have answered that in more detail, though. It sounds like things are a bit different (and more complicated!) here. 



Daisydoo said:


> Tbh the entire religion thing going on here is making me feel incredibly awkward I don't do religion I never will whilst I believe everyone has their own beliefs I fins it really uncomfortable having it sprawled all over a chihuahua forum


Your feelings are noted and taken to heart. In all honesty, you brought up my beliefs initially and then stated how you could relate being from a religious background yourself, opening the door, in essence. I do, however, fully understand it's a door you don't wish to go through and I will respect and honor your wishes 100%! The only other direct bible quote/reference was actually to a specific poster and was referring to an already ongoing conversation, which is why I try to use multi-quote to clarify to whom my responses are going. 



Yoshismom said:


> When I make these posts it is in hopes that you guys will understand how your train of thought may not be everyones and I always hope you will understand why we do what we do or dont do what you guys think we should. We have to be fair to everyone
> 
> To the OP, I am sorry that this post has been hijacked, LOL! it does happen from time to time so my apologies


Not a problem!! I'm am involved in forums enough to know that a) Mods are underapreciated and have a difficult job and b) threads were made to be hijacked - LOL! I suppose I've made quite a grand entrance here and everyone will have their own opinions. I am honored to live in a country where we have such freedoms and I don't take them lightly or for granted. (Can you tell I'm an Army brat?!)

Thank you for the Mod work you do and for being understanding and welcoming. :-D 

Um...pics of that harlequin of yours???? I'll have to check out your album because I'm dying to see more of that lovely Dane!!

Speaking of pictures...here's Charlie snuggling with Cocoa on my shoulder:


----------



## Yoshismom

Wow you are right, he is stunning! Charlie is a looker as well  I tried to add some links here last night from past threads on here but my computer has not only been slow lately but is giving me a fit with the copy and paste feature. Not sure what is going on but I couldnt even post the winning blinkie for the contest this month. I had to forward it?

If you do a search here for "Theismann" you should be able to see some of the pics I have posted in the past


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## BlessingsAbound

Yoshismom said:


> Wow you are right, he is stunning! Charlie is a looker as well  I tried to add some links here last night from past threads on here but my computer has not only been slow lately but is giving me a fit with the copy and paste feature. Not sure what is going on but I couldnt even post the winning blinkie for the contest this month. I had to forward it?
> 
> If you do a search here for "Theismann" you should be able to see some of the pics I have posted in the past


I did and he's GORGEOUS - perfect torn patches - perfect show markings - what a gem!!!! You must be one proud mama.


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## Terri

Yoshismom said:


> When looking for a handler for my Dane, I went with one of the best around and she requires looking at your dog to see if she feels like he will do well in the ring. Once she sees this she decides whether or not she will take them on. There are some people that have a dog they think is nice and ask a handlers advice on them, some breeders will tell you anything to sale you a pup so if you want to show whether just for fun or for real then going to a handler can be a benefit. I am not sure what the case is here or if either but just explaining how things are done in US sometimes.
> 
> The religion thing can be controversial but if it is one's beliefs no matter what religion or if none, it is still a public board and therefore freedom of speech. Not trying to be mean but if there is talk that bothers someone they should just ignore it. There have been things said on here and things done on here that I felt sick to my stomach over and was bothered greatly over but I just ignored it as there is nothing we can really do about it :-(
> 
> I hope I havent offended anyone in asking for people to pray for my situations but those prayers are important to me


That is totally different asking someone to pray for a reason.
I have said that too when someone is going through a tough time.
It really isnt the same thing at all.
The meaning here was to me sarcastic.
Am not to fussed if nobody else could see that either, it was to me and that is my opinion.
Anyway it's done.


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## Lin

Yoshismom said:


> It is funny as I havent found her to be condecending at all? In fact I have found her posts refreshing and not argumentative and she can admit when she is wrong. I think that is awesome. It is so hard to tell what one is meaning from typing so lets give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I feel she is genuinely sensitive to the situations she is hearing and just has a good heart.


I agree with you Michelle.


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## TLI

I don't think the OP has done anything to anyone here. She came in with questions, and as usual she was bombarded with "opinions." She defended herself, but not in a hateful manner. If I was referred to as ignorant, I can assure you I would not have been as nice as she was about it. This talk of being offended about this, and about that, is so redundant. We all have things we read here that offends us, but that's the versatility that comes with a public message board. If you don't like something, skip over it! Simple courtesies are taught in Kindergarten, and as far as I know we are all adults here. The bickering on who is right, and who is wrong, who can be offended and who can't is childish and ridiculous. I’m not even sure how some fare in the real World being so sensitive. Everything that someone posts is not a call to lash out and vent. We don’t all see things the same way, and that’s life. Some of these threads lose complete track of anything that is was intended for. It turns into a 3 day argument on nothing more than individual feelings. There is nothing wrong with posting your opinion, but d a m n, move on!


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## Lin

TLI said:


> I don't think the OP has done anything to anyone here. She came in with questions, and as usual she was bombarded with "opinions." She defended herself, but not in a hateful manner. If I was referred to as ignorant, I can assure you I would not have been as nice as she was about it. This talk of being offended about this, and about that, is so redundant. We all have things we read here that offends us, but that's the versatility that comes with a public message board. If you don't like something, skip over it! Simple courtesies are taught in Kindergarten, and as far as I know we are all adults here. The bickering on who is right, and who is wrong, who can be offended and who can't is childish and ridiculous. I’m not even sure how some fare in the real World being so sensitive. Everything that someone posts is not a call to lash out and vent. We don’t all see things the same way, and that’s life. Some of these threads lose complete track of anything that is was intended for. It turns into a 3 day argument on nothing more than individual feelings. There is nothing wrong with posting your opinion, but d a m n, move on!


Bravo!!!!! Well said T! :hello1::cheer::foxes_207::laughing7:


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## rache

I love the photo. They are both lovely x


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## Guess

Good luck with everything!! :3


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## Aquarius

Welcome to the forum, I love the photo of your chis - they are gorgeous.

I hope that it was too late for your female to become pregnant - I know little or nothing about breeding but I have learnt a lot from your posts already  it seems like you are really doing your homework!

BTW -Excellent posts by Michelle and TLI


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## BlessingsAbound

Terri said:


> The meaning here was to me sarcastic.
> Am not to fussed if nobody else could see that either, it was to me and that is my opinion.
> Anyway it's done.


Ouch. In NO way was I trying to be sarcastic. I'm so sorry I'm coming across that way! I keep reading and re-reading to see where the disconnect is and all I can do is apologize if I seem insincere, uncaring, condescending, patronizing, betlittling, self-righteous, and/or overbearing. These are truly untasteful characteristics and I'm actually a bit saddened to be likened to them. 

Perhaps in time, in other areas on the forum, my personality will come through more clearly. (I'm also recovering from surgery so maybe I'm not being as clear as I think I am!)

Everyone's opinion DOES matter because an opinion is formed based on how one views the information presented to them. That opinion is a window into a) how well others are portraying the themselves and their subject matter and b) how the one interpretting the subject feels about the situation, the other person and sometimes, themselves as well. I can't address "b" but if I'm coming across in a way that's causing such negative opinions, I'm not doing a good job of portraying myself and my situation. It's easy to say, "well that's just their opinion" but I do think others' opinions can be a reflection of my words and actions so I take them into consideration as I work on being a better person each and every day. 

Sometimes people just need to be heard. It's okay if I don't like what they're saying - it doesn't mean it's not as important as what I say - it just means we disagree. There isn't always a right or wrong in every situation and I try to always remember that. I'm certainly not perfect and feedback from others is how I can grow as an individual so...when I say your opinion matters, I mean it.


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## BlessingsAbound

Lin said:


> I agree with you Michelle.





TLI said:


> I don't think the OP has done anything to anyone here. She came in with questions, and as usual she was bombarded with "opinions." She defended herself, but not in a hateful manner.





Lin said:


> Bravo!!!!! Well said T! :hello1::cheer::foxes_207::laughing7:


Thank you all for seeing the good in me - I'm glad it's coming across to some extent.



Aquarius said:


> Welcome to the forum, I love the photo of your chis - they are gorgeous.
> 
> I hope that it was too late for your female to become pregnant - I know little or nothing about breeding but I have learnt a lot from your posts already  it seems like you are really doing your homework!
> 
> BTW -Excellent posts by Michelle and TLI


Thanks for the warm welcome!! I am trying to learn as much as possible before I make a decision to leap into the breeding world! My mentor has taught me so much and she's allowed me to participate in the whelping of some very precious pups. I am so grateful! I will continue to learn as much as possible. I am hopeful that Stella has been bred so we can move into the "show ring" stage of breeding together! (I know she can still show after a litter but being young, if she is pregnant I am realistic that it will take months beyond her pregnancy for her to recover...physically, mentally and socially).

I would love to think I could bring something to this board but mostly I'm hoping to learn from others on here with more experience.


----------



## BlessingsAbound

rache said:


> I love the photo. They are both lovely x


Rachel, you are so cute! Amidst the flurry of comments you just post like nothing is going on! I can just picture you sitting at a board room meeting with a bunch of executives screaming and yelling at one another and you quietly turn to your colleague next to you and say, "Isn't Jane's suit lovely today". 

It is a rare soul that can be surrounded by conflict but stay neutral and positive. I admire that!

Thank you for your kind words about my babies!! Man, do I love these dogs!!


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## BlessingsAbound

Guess said:


> Good luck with everything!! :3


Thanks! She is on day 23 of her cycle (with day one being the first day of bleeding) and the past two days I've noticed a marked difference in her. I think we're officialy in diestrus and I'm hoping the changes are due to coming out of heat rather than pregnancy! Her nipples are swollen but my other female, Cocoa, experienced the same symptoms during her diestrus. This is the progesterone-dominant phase of the cycle similar to what we experience between ovulation and menses each month (the luteal phase) so unfortunately it's hard to tell the difference between the common pseudopregnancy of diestrus and true pregnancy. It's a waiting game but I will definitely keep everyone posted on how she does. I'm going to take some pictures of her and post them up here too. All the pics in my siggy were taken late August but September was my youngest daughter's first birthday, my anniversary, my birthday, and our inlaws coming to be here for my surgery so I didn't take as many pictures as I usually do of the pups. There haven't been many changes in the chis but man, have my danes grown!!! 

Thanks for your well wishes!!


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## rache

BlessingsAbound said:


> Rachel, you are so cute! Amidst the flurry of comments you just post like nothing is going on! I can just picture you sitting at a board room meeting with a bunch of executives screaming and yelling at one another and you quietly turn to your colleague next to you and say, "Isn't Jane's suit lovely today".
> 
> It is a rare soul that can be surrounded by conflict but stay neutral and positive. I admire that!
> 
> Thank you for your kind words about my babies!! Man, do I love these dogs!!


Hahahaha you got me to a T! I hate argueing. I dwell on things far to much so for me its best to stay out of it. I have been keeping up with this thread tho. 
x


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## BlessingsAbound

rache said:


> Hahahaha you got me to a T! I hate argueing. I dwell on things far to much so for me its best to stay out of it. I have been keeping up with this thread tho.
> x


eacewink:


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## BlessingsAbound

BlessingsAbound said:


> I am hopeful that Stella has been bred so we can move into the "show ring" stage of breeding together! (I know she can still show after a litter but being young, if she is pregnant I am realistic that it will take months beyond her pregnancy for her to recover...physically, mentally and socially).


ACK! Major typo!!!! It should read, "I am hopeful that Stella has NOT been bred......"

Hopefully, anyone who read this knew what I meant but I don't want to start another flurry so I wanted to correct that right away!!!


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## Reese and Miley

You really have made an entrance! She is awfully young, hopefully they didn't breed successfully! 
Looking forward to more pics! Your dogs look lovely and chis and danes are two of my most very favorite breeds. The more I think about it you really do have your hands full, that's a lot of pups at once!


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## Distant Hill

You need to leave all your fancy words and what ever you have been reading about calcium to the side . You stated your bitch is pregnant on her first heat she is not done growing her self put her on puppy food SHE NEEDS THE EXTRA CALCIUM , her body will pull calcium from her bones which are not fully developed yet . 
She is a small breed dog and has very different needs than a Dane that needs to be growing long and lean first . 
Not trying to sound curt but was concerned with your remark about the calcium .


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## Aust Chi Mumma

Whats the update on this one?


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## BlessingsAbound

Distant Hill said:


> You need to leave all your fancy words and what ever you have been reading about calcium to the side . You stated your bitch is pregnant on her first heat she is not done growing her self put her on puppy food SHE NEEDS THE EXTRA CALCIUM , her body will pull calcium from her bones which are not fully developed yet .
> She is a small breed dog and has very different needs than a Dane that needs to be growing long and lean first .
> Not trying to sound curt but was concerned with your remark about the calcium .


Thank you for your concern. She is under the care of our vet and being seen every two weeks. (I know this is a bit much but I don't want to take chances until we know). She is on Orijen Puppy food and is offered food 5 times (although she's still only eating about three times a day). 

I discussed the need for calcium and they were adamant against it unless she should show signs of hypocalcemia. The only time they will suggest supplementation is if there are outward symptoms abd during the last week to 10 days of pregnancy through lactation. 

Calcium supplementation, and vitamin supplementation in general, is widely misused and can cause harm, especially to a pregnant dog. I made the comment I did so that people who are under this misconeception can bring it up with their vet.

Further, I am mentoring with an AKC breeder, not just reading. 

This thread was started to see if other breeders on here had been through similar situations in their breeding program and what their outcomes were - as well as receive encouragement during this stressful time from others who were understanding and had "been there" so to speak. I apologize for not keeping this in the breeding section; however, don't have access, as I'm new to this forum.


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## jessicao32

calcium is only for after when she has those puppy not during...it will do more harm then good during...I bred chihuahua and i have many books...i am selling them all. taking you dog to the vet is a little much JMO its wasting money....you can tell when she is pregnant just watch her nipples and her tummy area...you can also feel around for walnut size lumps...if you are talking with a AKC breeder she would be able to tell if you girl is pregnant...feeding her more during the is not always good as it will make those puppies fatter and hard to whelp which will turn into c section which can cost $$$$ lots...i would feed my extra healthy food like uncooked veggies or to lick my plate but i didnt do this during the whole pregnancy..as i knew it would just make her gain alot and make those puppies fat and hard coming out during the whelping time.

i truly hope everything goes ok for that mom and her puppies....please please listen and if you have question pm me and i will be happy to help...but why feed her FIVE times a day...Feed her at normal time if that is 2 times...

I believe you are just asking for trouble by doing what you are doing...JMO


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## BlessingsAbound

Reese and Miley said:


> You really have made an entrance! She is awfully young, hopefully they didn't breed successfully!
> Looking forward to more pics! Your dogs look lovely and chis and danes are two of my most very favorite breeds. The more I think about it you really do have your hands full, that's a lot of pups at once!


Yes, I do have my hands fun but I also have a lot of helping hands! Our dogs are family and our children (especially the older ones) have wanted them for so long they are eager and willing to help out! Two of my son's have even expressed interest in junior handling! We're very family oriented and enjoy what these beautiful creatures have brought to our family dynamic!

And yes, she is young. I feel horrible for putting her in this situation but our vet feels she really in the best place she can be considering. I'm working on uploading pics but I do have a few I can include here! 




Aust Chi Mumma said:


> Whats the update on this one?


Hey! It's a waiting game now! Her nipples and abdomen are swollen. She vomitted three times on Saturday but that is exactly how my other female was in her diestrus. She is playful, active, happy, and I basically have NO clue - which is nerve wracking!! I went to the vet last week and am going again next week...

Here are some pics I took last night:



















I'm going to post a few more in the general photo area and will link it on here for those who are interested. I have some shots of her sleeping beside Eli's (my male dane) leg and her paw on his - too cute!!!


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## cprcheetah

Christina, sounds like you are doing everything right as far as the 'what if she got pregnant'. I COMMEND you on taking your girl to the vet regularly, you are definitely on top of things and I don't think it's too much, when my girls were pregnant they saw the vet at 3, 5 ,7, 8,9 weeks to make sure there weren't problems. Some may have considered that overkill but i wanted my babies to be healthy. I also think you are doing right with the calcium, don't over supplement, I've never had a bitch with eclampsia, always fed a premium kibble before & after whelping and sometimes would supplement occassionally with hard boiled eggs or cottage cheese, but they always did pretty good.


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## BlessingsAbound

jessicao32 said:


> calcium is only for after when she has those puppy not during...it will do more harm then good during...I bred chihuahua and i have many books...i am selling them all. taking you dog to the vet is a little much JMO its wasting money....


Yeah, it's excessive but my vet has been GREAT and is allowing me to bring her in for a quick look over without paying an exam fee - the reason for this is we've been trying to get her weight up since she was about 10 weeks old. We've pretty much deteremined she's on the lean side naturally but now that she could be pregnant and I expressed my concerns and she wants to make sure she's staying on track. 



jessicao32 said:


> you can tell when she is pregnant just watch her nipples and her tummy area...you can also feel around for walnut size lumps...if you are talking with a AKC breeder she would be able to tell if you girl is pregnant...


Yes, my mentor has shown me in the past how to palpate for the embryos and is going to look at her for me around day 30. I'm also opting for the ultrasound so we can determine if there are hearbeats. Then, we'll xray around day 52 or so to see how many and what size to decide whether a natural whelp or c-section is necessary. If she weren't so young, I'd probably skip the extra vet exams and the ultrasound but, I'm just being extra cautious so we can be sure to keep her weight up if she is, indeed, pregnant. 



jessicao32 said:


> feeding her more during the is not always good as it will make those puppies fatter and hard to whelp which will turn into c section which can cost $$$$ lots...i would feed my extra healthy food like uncooked veggies or to lick my plate but i didnt do this during the whole pregnancy..as i knew it would just make her gain alot and make those puppies fat and hard coming out during the whelping time.


LOL @ licking your plate - we let our pups do that from time to time. I hadn't really thought about making the pups fat! I was thinking about keeping her weight up - she is skinny and always has been! She still isn't overeating, though. I'm glad you mentioned the pups because we'll need to consider that in our balancing act!



jessicao32 said:


> i truly hope everything goes ok for that mom and her puppies....please please listen and if you have question pm me and i will be happy to help...but why feed her FIVE times a day...Feed her at normal time if that is 2 times...
> 
> I believe you are just asking for trouble by doing what you are doing...JMO


Well, I offer the food five times a day but she only eats 2 to three of those times and not everything. I just want to be sure she has the opportunity since we don't free feed. My vet did say that the puppy food, fed at the regular intervals, is usually all they need the first 4 weeks but for her, offering food a little more often may entice her to eat. Again, we've always had issues with her weight and I think she's just a skinny girl! We call her our supermodel because she has longer legs than our other female and is skinny. 

Thank you so much for your advice and support. So, what do you think about my vet's recommendations? I try to listen to them but sometimes I do disagree with their train of thinking so I'd be interested to hear what other breeders have experienced.


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## Reese and Miley

Aww she is a gorgeous girl! I love the collar. Im sure its in here somewhere, but when will your vet be able to tell you if youre in the clear?


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## BlessingsAbound

Reese and Miley said:


> Aww she is a gorgeous girl! I love the collar. Im sure its in here somewhere, but when will your vet be able to tell you if youre in the clear?


Thanks for the compliment on her collar; I made it! 

She said that blood tests for relaxin can detect amounts as early as 3 weeks post ovulation but their standard is 28 days post day of first mating (for planned breeding) or, in my case, she suggested 28 days post suspected tie. Which is also about the same time the embryos can be felt as small hard structures. I had a hard time feeling the embryos in my training so I'm definitely going to have the breeder I mentor with check her as well as my vet. She, (the vet) said I could do either the relaxin or ultrasound but ultrasound would be able to show hearbeats (which may or may not tell how many) and since Stella is young, underdeveloped fetuses could be present so the heartbeat would give a good indication of still born/undeveloped embryos versus live pups. 

I didn't even ask the price comparison of the two options!! I wonder if they're relatively the same or not? I honestly haven't thought about price during this ordeal. I feel like I owe it to her to do anything/everything necessary to keep her healthy. 

Here are some more pics of Stella last night when she got cozy with her BIG brother and BIG sister. 

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chihuahua-pictures/56033-stella-danes.html#post772466


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## BlessingsAbound

*Update*

Just wanted to let everyone know that Stella was NOT pregnant! I pretty much knew that a few weeks ago when she wasn't showing but was worried about the possibility of her not showing until later with only one pup. She would've been due December 11 so I can definitively say she is NOT pregnant!

My other female, Cocoa is in heat and we attempted to mate her but did not witness a sucessful tie. No worries! I'm in no hurry and I still learn so much every time I attend another birth. I'd love to think that maybe she and Charlie tied when we weren't looking but he didn't seem to "get it" - poor fella. Maybe next time! She did throw up this evening but she did that last heat too and so did Stella so it must be a diestrus thing for them. Still..... 

Thanks for following the thread and thanks to the many wondeful people on here who have send me PMs with words of encouragement, support, and a warm welcome!

Blessings,
Christina


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## cprcheetah

Phew...I bet you breathed a sigh of relief. I had a westie male who was a 'lazy breeder' it was just too darn much effort for him lol.


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## Adrienne

OH thats great she isnt expecting! Good news for you!!


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## Chihuahuasloveme

good news!


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## ExoticChis

yes thats fantastic news!


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## Yoshismom

Glad to hear she wasnt pregnant!


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