# deer head vs. apple head



## Darkrose

I know the apple head is far more desirable, but puppies change so much as they grow how can you tell looking at a puppy which type its going to be?


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## OurCheekyChihuahuas

Theres a lot of people who can help answer this!

In the pictures you can see a big difference. 

Apple Domed









Deer head


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## Darkrose

Thats my little boy, can anyone tell me which he is, I'm really not sure


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## OurCheekyChihuahuas

Id say deer head personally its a hard picture to tell from. Pretty markings!


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## foggy

He'll be a deer head, I believe. Congrats! He's adorable! I bet you can't wait to have him home.


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## flippedstars

He "looks" more deer shaped, but it's hard to tell from that picture, we'd really need a side profile to be able to tell. 

Keep in mind though that these are just terms "we" use to describe different chi head and body shapes, the standard calls for one thing and that is a well domed skull, so thus that is more correct and desirable as you mentioned.

Puppies do change, Trigger had a perfect apple domed skull as a puppy at 8 weeks and nice short correct muzzle, but his muzzle has lengthened quite a bit although is still = to about 1/2 his skull length it is longer than I prefer even though "technically" it still fits the AKC standard. He also doesn't have as domed of a skull but is really, really, really cute anyway!


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## rache

If you look on my siggy you can see both Pixie and Darcy have an apple dome head and short nose where as Billy and Bo have more of a deer head shape and longer muzzle. x


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## MChis

I also say he has a deer shaped head. Cute pup regardless!


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## Darkrose

Are there problems with dear heads more so than appleheads, I read somewhere that deer heads were due to poor breeding?


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## isolateyou

Anyone mind "diagnosing" what head type Tessa might be? 



Thank you!


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## MChis

No. I think problems arise when you have a super short muzzle - then you have troubles with breathing & such like with other short muzzled dogs. Mari has the shortest muzzle of all my dogs (not super short but the shortest) and she snorts like crazy! It doesn't do her any harm...it's very endearing. 

The apple dome shaped head has been bred into the breed. Kennel club breeders or people who breed for standard are trying to breed out the "deer shape" so some people will tell you the deer head Chi is a result of poor breeding. It's all the matter of opinion IMO. LOL 

I believe deer shape Chi's will keep popping up, even from champion Chi's because it is in their genetics plain & simple. But dear heads aren't prone to more health problems than apple heads to answer your original question.


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## Darkrose

Thanks Mchis I saw that and then you guys told me he is a deer head and I got worried >.< new mom jitters I guess lol


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## rache

My little Pixie is always snorting or 'reverse sneezing' it can get quite worrying at times. Billy has no problems what so ever.


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## ~*Jessie*~

I'd say he has a deer shaped head.

Chihuahuas with apple domed heads have a 90 degree angle from their snout to their forehead. The breed standard calls for an apple domed head, but having a deer shaped head doesn't make them any less chihuahua.

For example, this is my Tucker at 10 weeks of age. He has a big old head, lol.










My chihuahuas all have apple domed heads... you can check out my blog for pictures if you'd like


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## MChis

As long as she's coming from a breeder who breeds HEALTHY dogs & genetically sound dogs - you won't have a problem.  You could have a poorly bred Chihuahua that fits the standard to a T if you kwim and they could have many genetic problems. Quite a few of my crew is far from perfect "standard" but they are all healthy & have never had any troubles. The breeder I got them all from breeds healthy dogs but not all fit perfectly into standard. Some may find this "poor breeding". But Chi's in my state aren't over running shelters & such. They are in high demand for the most part. So IMO breeding healthy, pet quality Chi's isn't unrealistic or IMO "wrong".

Saying that - I've learned loads on Chi's & the standards& continue to do so. I feel my preference has changed loads. The next Chi I get I would love to be show quality so I can get into showing. Which won't be for several years since in order to show you need to travel out of state. I have 2 daughters at home so right now it's just not possible unfortunately. Anyway, I have definitely gotten more "picky" in what I like. But I still love all of my dogs regardless of if they fit into the standard or not. Just to clarify!


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## flippedstars

Deer heads are perfectly OK, its just not the dog you can take in the show ring. Laurel our oldest IS poorly bred, she's more "deer like" and came from brother/sister parents LOL. But there are plenty of deer like chis that pop up perfectly healthy, just like Trigger. He's technically better bred than the dog I plan to show, but doesn't look it. His pedigree is far more impressive, so...its all just a big crapshoot IMO. Your lil one is likely extremely healthy and happy and will be a lovely companion.


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## ~*Jessie*~

MChis said:


> As long as she's coming from a breeder who breeds HEALTHY dogs & genetically sound dogs - you won't have a problem.  You could have a poorly bred Chihuahua that fits the standard to a T if you kwim and they could have many genetic problems. Quite a few of my crew is far from perfect "standard" but they are all healthy & have never had any troubles. The breeder I got them all from breeds healthy dogs but not all fit perfectly into standard. Some may find this "poor breeding". But Chi's in my state aren't over running shelters & such. They are in high demand for the most part. So IMO breeding healthy, pet quality Chi's isn't unrealistic or IMO "wrong".
> 
> Saying that - I've learned loads on Chi's & the standards& continue to do so. I feel my preference has changed loads. The next Chi I get I would love to be show quality so I can get into showing. Which won't be for several years since in order to show you need to travel out of state. I have 2 daughters at home so right now it's just not possible unfortunately. Anyway, I have definitely gotten more "picky" in what I like. But I still love all of my dogs regardless of if they fit into the standard or not. Just to clarify!


I totally agree!

There are some really bad breeders out there with some beautiful dogs who fit the standard perfectly.


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## MChis

Marley gets pretty intense reverse sneezing & it does worry me at times. He has a shorter muzzle & a HUGE head. haha Mari only reverse sneezes when she gets very excited. :roll: Milo has a nice head & a perfect stop. But his muzzle is very long. He never reverse sneezes. Matilda only does when she inhales something. And Maxie & Maya never do either.

Ahhh Tucker - one of my all time favorite Chi's! :love5:


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## ~*Jessie*~

All of mine reverse sneeze almost daily. Haha. Even Chloe who has the longest snout out of my 4 does it. 

I can't think of any specific health problems for each "type." All chihuahuas run the risk of genetic issues like luxating patella, which is why it is important to choose a breeder who breeds healthy parents.

And thanks, mchis! I'm quite partial to him as well! :daisy:


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## LostLakeLua

For the record I want to say that standard or not, I definitely prefer the look of a deer-head chi... and I was quite surprised to find the amount of people that agree with that too. Just throwing that out- while I know the apple head is standard I've met a lot of people who've admitted they found the deer type more aesthetically pleasing.
I always kinda wondered... when it comes to the dog "Standard" there's usually a reason behind each physical trait. Usually that applies to whatever the dog was bred to do originally. But for a "Companion" dog, how does someone determine what physical characteristic is desired over another?? I can understand how on a dog who was bred for sport or whatnot that certain things help the dog; but in being a companion, how does having a short muzzle help?? lol


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## foggy

Kitty&Kahlua said:


> For the record I want to say that standard or not, I definitely prefer the look of a deer-head chi... and I was quite surprised to find the amount of people that agree with that too. Just throwing that out- while I know the apple head is standard I've met a lot of people who've admitted they found the deer type more aesthetically pleasing.


Yes, I know people that prefer the look of a deer head too. I don't really care either way myself. I have one of each, but it just so happened that way as both of mine are from rescue.


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## LovesMyPups

Kitty&Kahlua said:


> For the record I want to say that standard or not, I definitely prefer the look of a deer-head chi... and I was quite surprised to find the amount of people that agree with that too. Just throwing that out- while I know the apple head is standard I've met a lot of people who've admitted they found the deer type more aesthetically pleasing.



I am also surprised at the amount of people I hear say that deer head chis are their favorites. Personally, I think I lean more that way than the apple head way.  Lo is a deer head, with a longer muzzle. I think she is just gorgeous, elegant, and always have/will be. Finn is definitely more of an apple head with a super short muzzle and I think he is just a little doll. More of a "cutie" than a "pretty" boy. KWIM? 

BTW Kitty, Kahlua is probably my favorite chi on here. She is just precious and so so pretty.


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## Darkrose

found this picture that shows a better profile










does everyone still think deer head?


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## LostLakeLua

LovesMyPups said:


> BTW Kitty, Kahlua is probably my favorite chi on here. She is just precious and so so pretty.


AWWW!! If chi's could blush, she'd be glowing right now. <3 Thank you!!


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## foggy

Darkrose said:


> found this picture that shows a better profile
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> does everyone still think deer head?


Yes, I still think so.


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## MChis

Definitely deer head.  

And when I first started out looking for my first Chi - I TOTALLY preferred the deer headed/bodied Chi. Matilda was my first & turned out EXACTLY the way I wanted her to...better probably except I was hoping she'd be a bit smaller. She's still small (a tall 7lbs) but still - she was exactly what I was hoping for. 

Now I prefer the more standard Chi. That's 3 years of research & learning about the beed. Don't know how or why my preference changed. Maybe because I *do* want to get into showing some day....

LOL Kristi - brother/sister breeding!? Oh dear! She is incredibly adorable for such a breeding. I know some breed aunts/nieces or nephews or even moms/dads to their off spring. I could never bring myself to line breed personally but I guess I do understand the reason behind it. But little Laurel is pretty darned perfect for such a weird pairing.


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## Darkrose

Thanks for the replies everyone.


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## HollieC

Just wondering........If the large round apple head is the reason many chihuahua bitches are unable to give birth naturally and nead caesarian sections or will die, is the applehead really natural? Without human intervention and veterinary medicine, wouldn't the apple heads die out due to natural selection? Arent the less domed, deer type skulls healthier? I don't want to rattle anyones cages, I appreciate the breed standards and why they are needed, but I am all for the UK kennel club's move to adapting breed standards this year to focus on sound health instead of just aesthetics.


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## KittyD

MChis said:


> No. I think problems arise when you have a super short muzzle - then you have troubles with breathing & such like with other short muzzled dogs. Mari has the shortest muzzle of all my dogs (not super short but the shortest) and she snorts like crazy! It doesn't do her any harm...it's very endearing.
> 
> The apple dome shaped head has been bred into the breed. Kennel club breeders or people who breed for standard are trying to breed out the "deer shape" so some people will tell you the deer head Chi is a result of poor breeding. It's all the matter of opinion IMO. LOL
> 
> I believe deer shape Chi's will keep popping up, even from champion Chi's because it is in their genetics plain & simple. But dear heads aren't prone to more health problems than apple heads to answer your original question.



My vet had mentioned to me that the extreme apple heads often have more health issues, as seen from his practice! I didn't even ask .. he had just offered the information to me when I took AJ in and we were talking about him. It is interesting to know the apple head was bred into the dog..



HollieC said:


> Just wondering........If the large round apple head is the reason many chihuahua bitches are unable to give birth naturally and nead caesarian sections or will die, is the applehead really natural? Without human intervention and veterinary medicine, wouldn't the apple heads die out due to natural selection? Arent the less domed, deer type skulls healthier? I don't want to rattle anyones cages, I appreciate the breed standards and why they are needed, but I am all for the UK kennel club's move to adapting breed standards this year to focus on sound health instead of just aesthetics.


Again this is something else my vet mentioned, that Chihuahuas have a very high section rate due to the large apple head. I think both heads can be cute personally, I have no idea what AJ is, his snout is half of his head.. and he does have a dome.. no clue.. LOL don't care really.

The reverse sneezing thing, I have never heard AJ do it, however my Poodle does it all the time!!!


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