# My breeder just told me that blowing a puppy coat is down to feeding raw?!



## Alula (Feb 3, 2013)

I posted this picture on my facebook today with a caption about puppy uglies, how I have white fluff everywhere and how Basil is looking scraggy, I admit he looks skinny in the picture but that was kinda the point. The second picture us from 2 datsxago but you can see how the different angle and light make him look worse in the first! 

My breeder (the same one who sent basil home with us at 7 weeks) sent me a concerned private message saying that none of her chis have ever had hair loss and she finds it distressing and it must be because I am feeding him raw. She also said he looks straggly. Now I know raw isnt for everyone but surely a breeder of 15 years must know long haired Chis blow their puppy coat? Its really upset my OH as I am the one who does all the research so it has made him question how we are raising our pup  I was worried about under feeding he gets about 6% of his current weight a day spread out over 3 meals plus lots of natural treats on top but I think I will up his food too. Its all made me really sad  

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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

Can you see his ribs? You should be able to feel them but not see them. 

Honestly, it doesn't sound like the breeder is the best and I don't think I would listen to her. As long as you are feeding the proper proportions of meat, organ, and bone, Basil is getting a balanced diet. Has the vet commented on his weight?


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

He does look thin in those pics, I cannot comment on raw feeding at all as it's not something I'll ever do.. but perhaps you can offer him some 5 star kibble to help beef him up?


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## Alula (Feb 3, 2013)

pupluv168 said:


> Can you see his ribs? You should be able to feel them but not see them.
> 
> Honestly, it doesn't sound like the breeder is the best and I don't think I would listen to her. As long as you are feeding the proper proportions of meat, organ, and bone, Basil is getting a balanced diet. Has the vet commented on his weight?
> 
> ...


Nope you can feel them but not see them, he has a nice layer over them. The vet said he was a big boy  but a healthy weight. If anythig its his legs that I think look thin now he has lost some of hus puppy fluff from them. He gets 75-80 percent meat, 10-15 bone and 10 from organs. Treats are on top like dehydrated chicken strips, chicken neck and fish, he gets a large piece of dehydrated green tripe every other day.

I just hate the idea that I may not be doing what's best for him and that it looks to some people that I am neglecting him. He is my little best buddy and my little shadow  

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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Well pics can be deceiving as well.... if you know he is healthy and you cannot see his ribs or anything I'd advise just ignoring what others are saying?


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## intent2smile (Dec 4, 2011)

I have found that pictures can be very deceiving sometimes. In the first picture he does look a little skinny but it could be just the position. As long as you can feel Basil's ribs but cannot see them then he is good. 

You are doing what you feel is best for Basil and that is what matters.

Since they let Basil go at 7 weeks I really would not worry about what they think.


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

Toby is long and lean like Basil. When he was a pup, I actually had someone accuse me of animal neglect because he was too skinny. He was eating the best food and more of it then recommended. The vet said he was perfect. He was just naturally thin. He went through a phase where he was awkward and skinny. He filled out though, but there was a period of time where he was thin. 

If you are making sure his diet is balanced and his vet says he's okay and you can't see his ribs, he's probably fine. 

Remember, people are used to seeing overweight dogs. So a thin, healthy dog doesn't seem to be okay to them. 


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## intent2smile (Dec 4, 2011)

Alula said:


> Nope you can feel them but not see them, he has a nice layer over them. The vet said he was a big boy  but a healthy weight. If anythig its his legs that I think look thin now he has lost some of hus puppy fluff from them. He gets 75-80 percent meat, 10-15 bone and 10 from organs. Treats are on top like dehydrated chicken strips, chicken neck and fish, he gets a large piece of dehydrated green tripe every other day.
> 
> I just hate the idea that I may not be doing what's best for him and that it looks to some people that I am neglecting him. He is my little best buddy and my little shadow
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Jaxx's legs look like that. They look like little twigs. 

We are always getting comments about if we ever feed Jaxx because he actually has a shape. Since most of the chihuahuas in our area are overweight and have no shape people assume that Jaxx is not getting something he needs.
I had a lady a while back ask me how much Jaxx eats a day. I told her 5 tablespoons of food a day. She offered to go buy me dog food. I explained that Jaxx is on a good quality food and is eating the perfect amount for him. I do not think she believed me but in the end we know our dogs.

I would thank her for her concern but tell her you have talked to your vet and done research and Basil is just fine.


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## KrystalLeigh (Aug 17, 2011)

To be honest, he does look quite thin in those pics but I think the girls are right, pics can be deceiving. I haven't noticed him looking skinny in any of the other photos you've posted. I know that with raw it's about getting to know what amount your dog needs to eat instead of just following a guide for weight. If you're worried, maybe just stick with raw and increase the amount that he eats. He may just need a bit higher of a percentage? I wouldn't let what someone else says worry you though, only change if YOU feel that it's needed.


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## Angel1210 (Mar 14, 2011)

Sometimes I feel bad giving angel just 1/4 cup of food per day! But, he is already 9lbs! The vet said he should be 8-8 1/2! I try to keep him just under 9! 

I don't think Basil looks too skinny! He looks happy and healthy! Besides, he is still very young and hasn't "matured" yet! And I agree, if she's letting puppies go at 7 weeks old, she shouldn't be saying anything!


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Definitely a bad pic! If your breeder feeds kibble she will be used to seeing roly poly puppies. Raw fed puppies grow more slowly and don't gain the 'puppy fat' that kibble fed pups do. It is much more natural and gentle on their joints to grow more slowly. So stop doubting yourself, his diet sounds spot on. If you think he needs a bit more, go ahead and feed him a bit more. Judge by his condition, not by how much his food weighs.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

He looks like he is in the gangly teenager phase to me. Pretty normal. I agree with Stella that your breeder and others are used to seeing roly poly fat pudgy puppies. He is growing appropriately and slowly, as nature intended with his no carb raw species appropriate diet. Don't second guess yourself. If you can feel his ribs, but not see them - he is the right weight. 

Do you add in any omega 3 fatty acids or feed fish? For optimal skin and coat health, you might want to add in some fish oil. I like to rotate oils... I use fish oil, krill oil, emu oil, vitamin E, and coconut oil. A different one every day or so. That will help his skin and coat be the healthiest and lush it can be genetically.


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## susan davis (Mar 25, 2011)

My Bonnie at 7 weeks was a fluffy, fat little girl. At 17 weeks she had lost ALL of that fluff, and was thinner and leggier. They change. Now at 13 months she is starting to grow some more coat, but is still thin.


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## AussieLass (Mar 1, 2012)

First off, I wouldn't pay any mind to a breeder who sent a Chi pup away at 7 weeks!

I feed a mix of raw, bones, grain-free kibble, and have a little girl who's petite just like yours and I do not believe she'll ever "beef up".

Some standing side-on photos and photos looking down from above whilst standing would be helpful. I agree with the gangly teen look atm.


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## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

Rolo is thin, he eats very well but has always been lanky and also has little twiggy legs. Tell the breeder to get stuffed. Lol. If she knew what she was talking about she wouldn't have let him go at 7 weeks


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## Kalisee (Jun 1, 2012)

Whoever gets accused of neglecting their chi just has to take the person by the ear and show them this site that they are a member of! 

I think Basil looks better in the second picture, pictures can be deceiving though. The breeder sent him off at 7 weeks, so that doesn't really make me feel you should take her "advice" seriously. I realize it upset you but now you are doubting yourself whilst doing what you think is best for Basil. 

If your vet is not concerned, then just keep on doing what you are doing. He is mighty cute by the way


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## Alula (Feb 3, 2013)

Firstly, thankyou everybody! This all happened just before bed last night so waking up to some really positive and sound advice has been amazing. I feel a ton better! 

I sent the Breeder a friendly reply thanking her for checking in and explaining a little about why we have chosen to feed raw, explained that Basil has three meals a day as she seemed to think he only had one, and explaining that a long hair chi puppy blowing their coat is not distressing, it's perfectly natural - I sent her a link about "pupy uglies" too.

I think for my own peace of mind I am going to up his food a little, and maybe start including fattier cuts of meat, most of what he eats is very lean. It's time for a new protein so I am going to introduce Lamb. He is a lean, very active pup and I can always cut back again if needed. 



pupluv168 said:


> Toby is long and lean like Basil. When he was a pup, I actually had someone accuse me of animal neglect because he was too skinny. He was eating the best food and more of it then recommended. The vet said he was perfect. He was just naturally thin. He went through a phase where he was awkward and skinny. He filled out though, but there was a period of time where he was thin.
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Basil is super high energy, always playing and we walk a lot every day, usually around 2 hours so I guess that is going to promote him being a lean pup too. Like you say I guess people are used to chubby puppies, a chubby pup is an extra cute pup though!



intent2smile said:


> Jaxx's legs look like that. They look like little twigs.
> 
> We are always getting comments about if we ever feed Jaxx because he actually has a shape. Since most of the chihuahuas in our area are overweight and have no shape people assume that Jaxx is not getting something he needs.
> I had a lady a while back ask me how much Jaxx eats a day. I told her 5 tablespoons of food a day. She offered to go buy me dog food. I explained that Jaxx is on a good quality food and is eating the perfect amount for him. I do not think she believed me but in the end we know our dogs.


In some ways it is heartening that people check in, it is a good thing that people care I guess. Their legs look so tiny right?! He had thick fluff hiding them before, really looking forward to his adult coat growing in! Basil has a defined waist for sure, is jaxx quite tall too? 



Wicked Pixie said:


> Definitely a bad pic! If your breeder feeds kibble she will be used to seeing roly poly puppies. Raw fed puppies grow more slowly and don't gain the 'puppy fat' that kibble fed pups do. It is much more natural and gentle on their joints to grow more slowly. So stop doubting yourself, his diet sounds spot on. If you think he needs a bit more, go ahead and feed him a bit more. Judge by his condition, not by how much his food weighs.


Very wise, I am completely confident that what we feed Basil is the best for him, he's gunna get a little extra and then I can assess how that affects his condition and I am pretty sure he will not be complaining about extra food. My OH calls him "Chief Scavenger" because he is always on the look out for an extra treat!



Brodysmom said:


> He looks like he is in the gangly teenager phase to me.
> 
> Do you add in any omega 3 fatty acids or feed fish? For optimal skin and coat health, you might want to add in some fish oil. I like to rotate oils... I use fish oil, krill oil, emu oil, vitamin E, and coconut oil. A different one every day or so. That will help his skin and coat be the healthiest and lush it can be genetically.


In general he is pretty out of proportion right now, very comparable to a human teen (Unfortunately the attitude has come with it too!) He gets fish when we have it so maybe once a week, he gets salmon oil every day and one of his daily treats are those little dehydrated fishes wrapped in chicken. But I like the idea of adding more oils in. I use quite a lot of oils for myself so will have to pick some up for the pup  Before he started blowing his coat it was really thick and soft, you can see the freckles on his skin on his chest now he has lost so much pup fluff!



susan davis said:


> My Bonnie at 7 weeks was a fluffy, fat little girl. At 17 weeks she had lost ALL of that fluff, and was thinner and leggier. They change. Now at 13 months she is starting to grow some more coat, but is still thin.


Sounds exactly what is happening to Basil.



AussieLass said:


> First off, I wouldn't pay any mind to a breeder who sent a Chi pup away at 7 weeks!
> 
> I feed a mix of raw, bones, grain-free kibble, and have a little girl who's petite just like yours and I do not believe she'll ever "beef up".
> 
> Some standing side-on photos and photos looking down from above whilst standing would be helpful. I agree with the gangly teen look atm.


Thanks Dee, I tried to get a couple of usable pictures but we were in full on playmode, the camera was a target. Here are the best of a terrible, blurry bunch! 

















- Ignore my feet please! hehe I have my comfy shorts on 



Kalisee said:


> I think Basil looks better in the second picture, pictures can be deceiving though. The breeder sent him off at 7 weeks, so that doesn't really make me feel you should take her "advice" seriously. I realize it upset you but now you are doubting yourself whilst doing what you think is best for Basil.
> 
> If your vet is not concerned, then just keep on doing what you are doing. He is mighty cute by the way


Yes, we have never had anyone comment on his weight in person, and photos depend so much on angles and lighting!

No the vet is very happy with him, she last saw him 3 weeks ago. I was a bit concerned that his weight gain has slowed down a lot but after reading around I am happy because a slower, steadier weight gain is a healthier weight gain.

Thanks, he has that slightly sad kinda face that makes him extra cute and we love him so much! He got spoilt this morning with his all time favourite because I was still a little blue - Lightly scrambled egg with a crushed up glucosamine tablet and salmon oil mixed through! Yummy eh? hehe


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## Kalisee (Jun 1, 2012)

Alula said:


> He got spoilt this morning with his all time favourite because I was still a little blue - Lightly scrambled egg with a crushed up glucosamine tablet and salmon oil mixed through! Yummy eh? hehe


Yes, you are indeed neglecting Basil...shame on you!


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

My Harley is prone to being on the skinny side, just like Basil he was a gangly and very active teenager. It was only quite recently that he really bulked up and put weight on, at around the age of 2, but he still needs to eat more than the recommended percentage of his body weight. While he was skinny I fed extra tripe, eggs, lamb and heart. All of which are quite high fat, and cut back a bit on chicken, turkey, rabbit and other lean meats. That is another huge advantage when feeding a DIY raw diet, you can tweak the diet to suit each dog individually. Skinny Harley was on approximately twice the recommended amount, at least 6% of his body weight.


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## MonkeyJoey (Apr 10, 2013)

I'm no chi expert but have done a good amount of research on the breed & feeding raw.

I'm very surprised that a chi breeder would let a pup go at 7 weeks, From everything I've read chi pups tend to stay with their mother longer than many breeds.

When feeding raw you don't follow the same feeding amount that you would for feeding processed dog food. You start out by feeding a certain amount for their weight but add or minus according to the weight gain of each dog.
When we adopted our boys, Monkey & Joey, I thought they were a bit thin so I just added a bit to their meals.
I hope this helps you feel better.

Yes add oils to help with coat condition as per Brodysmom's suggestion.


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## MMS (Aug 2, 2012)

Just like humans, dogs go through "awkward phases" as they're growing. 

I got Stella off craigslist (for shame, I know) when she was just 7 weeks. She was thin - I got lots of comments about it, and how puppies should be "roly poly." The lady I got her from sent her home with a bag of treat rolls as the "really good food" she was on... *le sigh

I switched her cold turkey to PMR with a wellness core chaser (free fed all day) the day I brought her home (we can't do full raw b/c the lil stinker won't eat organs... *grumble grumble). She never got roly poly, she also never had growth spurts. I still hear "she's so skinny" quite a bit, but I know it's almost always from people with overweight dogs. She's so muscular, and she doesn't beg for food (well, except ice cream, which rarely gets... and pickles...) so I know that her nutrients are going to the right places. 

What it really comes down to is knowing your own dog, and not letting silly people who would rather listen to salesmen than do their own research second guess what you already know.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Alula said:


> Firstly, thankyou everybody! This all happened just before bed last night so waking up to some really positive and sound advice has been amazing. I feel a ton better!
> 
> I sent the Breeder a friendly reply thanking her for checking in and explaining a little about why we have chosen to feed raw, explained that Basil has three meals a day as she seemed to think he only had one, and explaining that a long hair chi puppy blowing their coat is not distressing, it's perfectly natural - I sent her a link about "pupy uglies" too.
> 
> ...


Wow those are better pics :lol: he does look lean, but it's probably just his stage of development.. he will likely bulk up as he gets a bit older and they usually fill out a bit after a neuter too ( I cannot remember if he is already done or not.. lol) I personally don't think I would be concerned at all if he was my dog!


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## Aquarius (May 8, 2009)

Oh for goodness sake what a daft breeder!

He is just going through the gangly teenager stage which is known unkindly as the puppy uglies

Here's two of mine where you can see Bruno in particular looking scrawny and scraggly, he started off as a fine plump pup - he was an only pup so he got full access to his mother's milk bar - but a few months later this is how he looked!! -
http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chihuahua-pictures/43642-my-pupz.html

Once he got to about a year he grew into his legs, filled out and now has the most magnificent coat - all mine were gangly teenagers!

ps - here they are today - http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chihuahua-pictures/94273-our-buddy-bs-arrived.html


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## Rach_Honey (Jan 13, 2012)

Honey was scraggly at that stage too! I still have a hard time keeping the weight on her, she can lose pounds just like that! She gets green tripe nearly every day to bulk her up a bit, doesn't hurt that she loves it! X


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## Jayda (Jun 15, 2012)

Don't know if this helps but the breeder I got my two from said a LC can blow their coat when switched to a higher quality food. This actually happened with Prince. In fact even when I first got him in October his coat was still thin. He is super fluffy now due to being a double coat chi and feasting On ZP. The change in food, even when it is a switch to a higher quality change can impact their coat temporarily.


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## Alula (Feb 3, 2013)

Kalisee said:


> Yes, you are indeed neglecting Basil...shame on you!


I know, Scrambled eggs and salmon I am such a mean Mummy right?!



MMS said:


> What it really comes down to is knowing your own dog, and not letting silly people who would rather listen to salesmen than do their own research second guess what you already know.


This is so true. When we chose Basil we chose him becuase he was the biggest and chubbiest of the litter, I can't believe he has become so lean, but as you say it's all muscle. I can't imagine he would be quick so active and energetic _all_ day if he wasn't getting enough food!



KittyD said:


> Wow those are better pics :lol: he does look lean, but it's probably just his stage of development.. he will likely bulk up as he gets a bit older and they usually fill out a bit after a neuter too ( I cannot remember if he is already done or not.. lol) I personally don't think I would be concerned at all if he was my dog!


Not neutered yet, that's looming for him at 6 months. We are 20 weeks old now so he can keep his bits for a little while. He's a bigger Chi so I think he will fill out, but maybe be a leggy-er Chi. It's amazing how different they can look from photo to photo.



Aquarius said:


> Here's two of mine where you can see Bruno in particular looking scrawny and scraggly, he started off as a fine plump pup - he was an only pup so he got full access to his mother's milk bar - but a few months later this is how he looked!! -
> http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chihuahua-pictures/43642-my-pupz.html
> 
> Once he got to about a year he grew into his legs, filled out and now has the most magnificent coat - all mine were gangly teenagers!
> ...


Wow! That is such a change! I just showed OH those photo's and it has majorly calmed him. He just lets me do all the research then relay it to him and for him to see that Puppy Uglies really exist as put his mind at ease, so thankyou so so much. Bruno Looks so similar to Basil right now, but I think such an amazing adult coat may be out of our reach. Who knows though  That's the exciting part!



Rach_Hudson said:


> Honey was scraggly at that stage too! I still have a hard time keeping the weight on her, she can lose pounds just like that! She gets green tripe nearly every day to bulk her up a bit, doesn't hurt that she loves it! X
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


From my research (and there has been a lot of it) and with the help of google translate (such a Godsend) it's actually now illegal to sell untreated, raw green tripe in France now  I've seen this said in quite a few places including a French BARF website which seems to be the biggest around. So we have dried green tripe. He loves Eggs too so we will be including more of those and leaving the skin on leaner meats ... he is going to think he has hit the jackpot!



Jayda said:


> Don't know if this helps but the breeder I got my two from said a LC can blow their coat when switched to a higher quality food. This actually happened with Prince. In fact even when I first got him in October his coat was still thin. He is super fluffy now due to being a double coat chi and feasting On ZP. The change in food, even when it is a switch to a higher quality change can impact their coat temporarily.


We switched Basil to raw a week after we got him and taking his age in to account (20 weeks) I am pretty sure it's him blowing his puppy coat but had heard that a diet switch could trigger hair loss too  Your two have the most beautiful coats. Pretty sure Basil won't be hitting their high hair standard )) but hopefully from being on a great diet he'll end up with a very fine coat.

Thankyou all so much, it was my first major trial as a puppy owner and it really did hit me hard and make me sad. Normally I get teased becuase of how much I spoil him so to have someone suggest neglect was awful. You guys are great and I really appreciate all the honest opinions. I love that you don't all crowd in with platitudes and sentiment, but give real advice. :hello1:


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## Evelyn (Oct 14, 2012)

Ike went through a scraggly stage, my husband asked me if he was too thin, but the vets always said he is perfect. Now he is starting to look in proportion again, he is 81/2 months old.


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

Like everyone has said- you are feeding the best diet out there and you have a puppy that is at a gangly stage! Pudgy puppies- while what people are used to- are not in fact healthy, they are pudgy! Be happy you have slow growing, healthy dog who you are giving the best opportunity to grow up with healthy joints and bones.

I am sure the breeder means well but I would not give her much attention. She is not the most educated about dogs because she let puppies go at 7 weeks! I am sure the other puppies are growing differently because kibble pups do grow differently sometimes. What did your breeder feed?


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

The other thing diet aside, is that most long coats will not reach the maximum potential of what they will have until around 18 mos or so. My youngest dog was like this.. he was a bit fluffy but didn't really have a huge amount of fur, I was really amazed to watch his full coat come in literally around the 18 month mark. Now he looks like a walking cotton ball explosion! :lol:


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## Kalisee (Jun 1, 2012)

KittyD said:


> Now he looks like a walking cotton ball explosion! :lol:


Now THATS a discription!


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Kalisee said:


> Now THATS a discription!


:lol: Not much better way to describe it.. hubby calls him Qtip as a pet name... lol


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

I had to laugh out loud at the cotton ball explosion. :lol:


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## Alula (Feb 3, 2013)

Kalisee said:


> Now THATS a discription!


Hehe it is indeed. The if Basil does reqlly fluff up he is going to look like a cotton ball. Currently ny black jeans look like I have rubbed cotton balls all over them. My lint roller is getting a major work out


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

TLI said:


> I had to laugh out loud at the cotton ball explosion. :lol:






Alula said:


> Hehe it is indeed. The if Basil does reqlly fluff up he is going to look like a cotton ball. Currently ny black jeans look like I have rubbed cotton balls all over them. My lint roller is getting a major work out


Oddly.. for a mainly white dog, B does not shed much.. I like it that way though! LOL


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

I was going to agree with Dee and say take another set of photos, but being so smart you did it before I could put in my 2 cents.  The second set proves the point to me that photos are deceiving. He does just look like a healthy gangly teenager! lol And, Jemma, you have always looked to me like a devoted mom!!! Don't feel anything otherwise. Like you said, be thankful that someone cared about Basil (however misguided their ideas are), and I'm so glad we as a community of fellow chi-lovers could be here for you to set your mind at ease.


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## lilbabyvenus (Feb 8, 2009)

He looks so handsome hun! Don't listen to his breeder, I have a feeling (even after 15 years) she does not know nearly as much as she lets on. You have gotten excellent advice already, I just had to comment on how wonderful I think he looks


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## Mrs.J. (Nov 29, 2012)

It sounds to me like she may not be as knowledgeable as a breeder should be... I wouldn't be taking her advice, either.
My dogs get kibble at night (they're both just puppies, I can't let them go all night without food), and raw during the day. My sister in law (whom I love dearly, bless her) has an older Chi and they fed him wet canned food and table scraps all his life. She thinks it was the wet food that rotted his teeth (all his front teeth are missing). Once she heard I was feeding my pups raw, she made it very clear about her beliefs on wet food causing the teeth to rot.
Now, my dogs have always thrived on raw food. Their teeth don't need brushed, though I do it anyway, and they never, ever smell bad. Unless they just had a romp in the trash... But anyway, were constantly under fire because we feed raw. I wouldn't worry about it. You do what you feel is best for your babies, ask the vet about any concerns, and go with your instincts. Sorry she's giving you a hard time!


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## Alula (Feb 3, 2013)

lulu'smom said:


> The second set proves the point to me that photos are deceiving. He does just look like a healthy gangly teenager! lol And, Jemma, you have always looked to me like a devoted mom!!! Don't feel anything otherwise. Like you said, be thankful that someone cared about Basil (however misguided their ideas are), and I'm so glad we as a community of fellow chi-lovers could be here for you to set your mind at ease.


Thats a lovely thing to say, thankyou  I can't tell you how much better this thread has made me feel. I know that I do my utmost best that I can for my pup and I just needed to have a bit more faith in myself in that moment of doubt but its lovely to be able to come home and ask for opinions.



lilbabyvenus said:


> He looks so handsome hun! Don't listen to his breeder, I have a feeling (even after 15 years) she does not know nearly as much as she lets on. You have gotten excellent advice already, I just had to comment on how wonderful I think he looks


Again, thankyou so much. He has is a handsome (if a little straggly in the fur department) little man right now  I love watching him grow up!






Mrs.J. said:


> It sounds to me like she may not be as knowledgeable as a breeder should be... I wouldn't be taking her advice, either.
> My dogs get kibble at night (they're both just puppies, I can't let them go all night without food), and raw during the day. My sister in law (whom I love dearly, bless her) has an older Chi and they fed him wet canned food and table scraps all his life. She thinks it was the wet food that rotted his teeth (all his front teeth are missing). Once she heard I was feeding my pups raw, she made it very clear about her beliefs on wet food causing the teeth to rot.
> Now, my dogs have always thrived on raw food. Their teeth don't need brushed, though I do it anyway, and they never, ever smell bad. Unless they just had a romp in the trash... But anyway, were constantly under fire because we feed raw. I wouldn't worry about it. You do what you feel is best for your babies, ask the vet about any concerns, and go with your instincts. Sorry she's giving you a hard time!


I knew that raw feeding would spilt opinions. Everyone who meets him in the flesh says he looks lovely and healthy, but to hear someone suggest I was hurting my pup because if it was much more disheartening than I imagined it would be. 

Poor pup losing his teeth ... sounds like the lack of anything to get his teeth ckean on rather than the water content of his food was the cause! Im still brushing Basil's teeth even though he doesn't need it with his raw which is still quite bone heavy. He just loves the toothpaste 

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## BABY BABS (Feb 5, 2008)

*Try adding more liver*

I too feed raw. It's a wonderful diet for all dogs. That being said each dog is a little different in their needs. My long coat white chi needs more bone than my black one by about double in order to maintain firm stools. The white one also suffers from hair loss if we don't have enough liver in the diet. That's the one item I tell everyone who decides to feed raw to be sure to have regularly in the diet. We feed liver as deheydrated treats since they don't like the feel of it raw and as much as they liked it fried in butter, there was no way they were getting it like that!! ( That's reserved for us unhealthy eating humans.) If the hair loss continues and becomes worrisome for you, add some extra liver to your dogs diet. Just do so slowly, it's very rich and can cause diarhea.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Mrs.J. said:


> My sister in law (whom I love dearly, bless her) has an older Chi and they fed him wet canned food and table scraps all his life. She thinks it was the wet food that rotted his teeth (all his front teeth are missing). Once she heard I was feeding my pups raw, she made it very clear about her beliefs on wet food causing the teeth to rot.


Actually this is a bit of a fallacy.. wet food is actually better for the smaller babies I find as it has good water content and seems very easily digested and it's processed less. 

The trick is buying a GOOD 5 star wet food.
Good dental hygiene is essential to any breed dog.. the food alone won't cause the teeth to rot! 

Wet food is more expensive and if you have a large pack it can be a bit cost prohibitive, we only have two so it's very manageable, we also cook for our dogs.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Not to be disputing, but wet food does not cause rotting of the teeth. You get no more teeth cleaning value from kibble than you do wet. This is not just an opinion, it's factual. It's like saying that if you eat soup verses pretzels that your teeth would build more tartar/plaque. Rotting of the teeth is due to lack of oral hygiene, and/or lack of products designed to clean the teeth. You can provide things that your dog can gnaw on to loosen plaque and reduce tartar, but no specific diet will keep the teeth from rotting if proper oral care isn't provided.


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## AussieLass (Mar 1, 2012)

Definitely the gangly teen look, not skinny at all, just like my girl Midge.

As for your breeder, I'm afraid I wouldn't have been as polite as you  If he stays the way he is, he'll be a heck of a lot healthier in so many aspects it's not funny!

Never ceases to amaze me when breeders of non-standard any breed have the audacity to lord it over people they sell to and try to make them feel inferior, damn cheek!


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

AussieLass said:


> Definitely the gangly teen look, not skinny at all, just like my girl Midge.
> 
> As for your breeder, I'm afraid I wouldn't have been as polite as you  If he stays the way he is, he'll be a heck of a lot healthier in so many aspects it's not funny!
> 
> Never ceases to amaze me when breeders of non-standard any breed have the audacity to lord it over people they sell to and try to make them feel inferior, damn cheek!


I just love your "sauciness!" :lol: :cheer: Go Aussie!!!


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Oh, and BTW, your sweet Basil looks perfect. There's nothing I can add that hasn't been said. xxx


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## Alula (Feb 3, 2013)

TLI said:


> Not to be disputing, but wet food does not cause rotting of the teeth. You get no more teeth cleaning value from kibble than you do wet. This is not just an opinion, it's factual. It's like saying that if you eat soup verses pretzels that your teeth would build more tartar/plaque. Rotting of the teeth is due to lack of oral hygiene, and/or lack of products designed to clean the teeth. You can provide things that your dog can gnaw on to loosen plaque and reduce tartar, but no specific diet will keep the teeth from rotting if proper oral care isn't provided.


This is a really great point T, I meant in my comment that he could have done with a few things to help loosen his plaque 



AussieLass said:


> Definitely the gangly teen look, not skinny at all, just like my girl Midge.
> 
> As for your breeder, I'm afraid I wouldn't have been as polite as you  If he stays the way he is, he'll be a heck of a lot healthier in so many aspects it's not funny!
> 
> Never ceases to amaze me when breeders of non-standard any breed have the audacity to lord it over people they sell to and try to make them feel inferior, damn cheek!


Yes, she clearly cares a lot for her dogs, but in a really misguided way. Just makes me sad thinking about all the people who must think that way too and are unknowingly damaging their pups. She sent us home with a supermarket own brand kibble but I don't know what brand she feeds her adult dogs. 



TLI said:


> Oh, and BTW, your sweet Basil looks perfect. There's nothing I can add that hasn't been said. xxx


Thanks T, This thread has shown me that I am doing the right thing and the way Basil gallops around and play shows me how happy he is


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## catz4m8z (Aug 28, 2008)

Alula said:


> Basil is super high energy, always playing and we walk a lot every day, usually around 2 hours so I guess that is going to promote him being a lean pup too.


I think you said that Basil was 20 weeks old??,if so then 2 hours might be abit too much for him to be walking at his age (unless its just 2 hours playing freely on a soft surface like grass). I tried to keep to the 5minute rule with mine until they about 6mths old so I didnt cause them any joint damage....(total waste of effort for Adam given how often he throws himself off the couch after the cats!!LOL).
Alfie is the first pup Ive fed raw to from the start and I have noticed that he was a very lean, skinny boy and never had that roly poly puppy stage either. In fact at 6Ibs he eats the same as my 12Ib dog and is still a lean, healthy weight. If you are worried you can up the amount of food as its so efficiently processed dogs rarely seem to get fat on it! Ive spoken to other raw feeding owners who also say that their puppies grew steadily without a 'puppy fat' stage.


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## Alula (Feb 3, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> I think you said that Basil was 20 weeks old??,if so then 2 hours might be abit too much for him to be walking at his age (unless its just 2 hours playing freely on a soft surface like grass). I tried to keep to the 5minute rule with mine until they about 6mths old so I didnt cause them any joint damage....(total waste of effort for Adam given how often he throws himself off the couch after the cats!!LOL).
> Alfie is the first pup Ive fed raw to from the start and I have noticed that he was a very lean, skinny boy and never had that roly poly puppy stage either. In fact at 6Ibs he eats the same as my 12Ib dog and is still a lean, healthy weight. If you are worried you can up the amount of food as its so efficiently processed dogs rarely seem to get fat on it! Ive spoken to other raw feeding owners who also say that their puppies grew steadily without a 'puppy fat' stage.


Thanks, this is really helpful  its nice to know that other raw fed puppies are not super chubby too! Walking wise we live in the city so the pace is never fast and I always go by how the pup is feeling, at the slightest sign of fatigue or unhappiness we stop. We have built up to 2 hours but we got there pretty quick. On our average walk Basil never stops on wagging his tail and exploring around. The days that we walk an hour or less Basil gets very hyper and verges on destructive. He is an incredibly high energy puppy and has been ever since we bought him home 


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

Alula said:


> Thanks, this is really helpful  its nice to know that other raw fed puppies are not super chubby too! Walking wise we live in the city so the pace is never fast and I always go by how the pup is feeling, at the slightest sign of fatigue or unhappiness we stop. We have built up to 2 hours but we got there pretty quick. On our average walk Basil never stops on wagging his tail and exploring around. The days that we walk an hour or less Basil gets very hyper and verges on destructive. He is an incredibly high energy puppy and has been ever since we bought him home
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Toby was the same energy wise! He was a complete terror if he didn't get his longggg walks. By the time he was 5 months old we were walking 2-3 miles a day. During the summer I did adjust so the walks were shorter and more frequent, since I lived in Florida where it was veryyyy hot. 

Even today if he doesn't walk at least a mile or so he's nuts the whole day! 

I understand your pain! My little Toby is higher energy than any dog I've ever known. 


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## intent2smile (Dec 4, 2011)

pupluv168 said:


> Toby was the same energy wise! He was a complete terror if he didn't get his longggg walks. By the time he was 5 months old we were walking 2-3 miles a day. During the summer I did adjust so the walks were shorter and more frequent, since I lived in Florida where it was veryyyy hot.
> 
> Even today if he doesn't walk at least a mile or so he's nuts the whole day!
> 
> ...


Jaxx was/is the same way. We have always done long walks with him everyday. In the summer I always get up early just to make sure Jaxx gets to burn off some of his energy before it hits 100 degrees. 
Jaxx just has too much energy to burn it all off inside playing.


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## Alula (Feb 3, 2013)

Every time something gets posted its always Basil, Toby and Jaxx that are super similar. They are like three little amigos  I dread to think what a play date would be like with the three of them on a hyper day! 

I love our walks and I am lucky that I can give that kinda time to walking. He surprises me everyday wth his thirst for exercise and energy levels.


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## MMS (Aug 2, 2012)

Stella also has always needed long walks, just to expend all her extra energy so she can focus enough to learn! If we don't get a walk, or spend a few hours running around the dog park, Stella is going nutso! Just running around the back yard and the house isn't enough for her - she needs EXERCISE!

The kitties definitely don't appreciate it when she doesn't get her walkies, that's for sure!


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## Happyhome (Jan 20, 2013)

My Chloe is very lean and dainty. You can not see her ribs and she has a nice layer over them. Her legs are like long toothpicks and her long body is so sleek. I even free feed to make sure she gets everything she needs. She is just not an eater. I started with 1/2 cup at the beginning of the day and half was still there at the end so I began doing 1/4 in the morning bc she eats in the morning (her own schedule) and then adding a little later in the day to make sure she is never hungry so it totals about 1/3 c a day and she still leaves some. She is 6.2 pounds and 13 inches long from back of neck to tail. I have a picture of her on my profile page. She has a fragile deer look. My friend who adopted her Emma at the same time as I adopted Chloe (from the same rescue group and mama dog) ended up with a stout chi. Emma is the same height and length as Chloe but a whopping 12 pounds. She has a very large bone structure and her rib cage is twice as wide as my Chloes. Her leg bones are also twice as thick as my Chloes. Just like people I think dogs have different frames. Slender, medium and stout.


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