# BYB aka backyard breeders



## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

i posted this on another forum and would like to see what responses i get...

so i am hoping to either open some eyes or have my eyes opened. if you are a backyard breeder why are you breeding your dogs?

i am an advocate for spaying and neutering and find that a good breeder is making little if any money from a litter. that a male and a female should both bring the same price. a good breeder will be responsible for all pups they put on the ground, either buying them back or taking them back if the pup finds itself of needing to be placed in a new home. a good breeder breeds champions and breeds to the standard of the breed. that they will never breed a substandard dog that is either of ill temperment or confirmation. 

imo backyard breeders are breeding for money. if that is not the truth what are you breeding for? enlighten me if you would ...
__________________


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## Ory&C (Mar 20, 2005)

Very well written! :thumbleft: Here's one site that I just came across today....... I think it's a good example of a BYB!!
http://www.toybreedpuppies.4t.com/index.html


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## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

I dont breed but I am considering studding Zero, He's got a show at the end of may but he's very shy so I'm not sure he'll perform well but it'll be interesting to see how he does, But the only reason I personally would stud him out is because he comes from a very good breedline 13 champions in 5 generations (his grandfather was the top l/c stud dog a couple of years back), from what I can tell he's close to standard (but I will get him looked at by a judge)he is also a good weight, only thing that has possibly put me off studding him is his shyness. I would only stud him to an approved bitch i.e. has to have been looked at by a judge and be deemed of good standard that would compliment him. I am thinking of getting a bitch pup a couple of years down the line which I was hoping to breed/show but I would personally only breed to better the breed and within the British Chihuahua club and KC guidelines. But thats what I am hoping to do in a couple of years time  and I'd only breed so I could have a pup to carry on the breedline and to show, but then again I dont intend on becoming a BYB :wink:


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

i have to agree... that is a great example. if they were breeding for the betterment of the breed I WOULD THINK that you would have to limit yourself to the number of breeds you have. i think it would be hard to breed for the perfect coat, confirmation, temperment and not have substandard pups if you were breeding so many breeds. that is just my opinion and i may be wrong.

i have had friends who wanted to start raising pups for profit...they see what ridiculous prices are being brought even by the "designer mutt" they wanted a piece of the pie. they were either convinced they were making a huge mistake or they no longer talk to me  that is ok too ...

i am proud to say my girls are all spayed!


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## guinnypigsmom (Feb 9, 2006)

I use to show dogs when I was growing up and I know that if you want to breed, there's ALOT more to it then just throwing a male and female together and hoping for a profit. I would love to surround myself with animals but I just don't have the knowledge to breed, so I plan on fostering animals. All sorts....cats, dogs, rats, hamsters. I'm going to make sure that animals have a second chance at a loving forever home. I will clean up the mess left behind that these backyard breeders create, and in the end, surround myself with soft, fuzzy creatures!!! Next on the agenda, world peace!! LOL!!


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## tasel (Dec 2, 2005)

Ory&C said:



> Very well written! :thumbleft: Here's one site that I just came across today....... I think it's a good example of a BYB!!
> http://www.toybreedpuppies.4t.com/index.html


Their prices are much lower though for BYBs - I always thought BYBs charged Texas Teacup type prices (hardly anything for less than $1,000)


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

i wouldnt consider myself a backyard breeder but i wanted to say VERY good post darla!
everythig you said is very true, NO repuatable breeder makes any kind of profit!


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## Ory&C (Mar 20, 2005)

tasel said:


> Their prices are much lower though for BYBs - I always thought BYBs charged Texas Teacup type prices (hardly anything for less than $1,000)


Yes, but it's not all about the prices is it....... it's also about them cross-breeding and selling quite a lot of breeds. We don't get to see the parents on that site or the breeder himself........ seems like the person gets those puppies from different sources.


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## tasel (Dec 2, 2005)

Ory&C said:


> Yes, but it's not all about the prices is it....... it's also about them cross-breeding and selling quite a lot of breeds. We don't get to see the parents on that site or the breeders himself........ seems like the person get those puppies from different sources.



Oh, ok... didn't see the crossbreed and other breeds section... they must have a hell of a lot of land!


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

Ory&C said:


> Yes, but it's not all about the prices is it....... it's also about them cross-breeding and selling quite a lot of breeds. We don't get to see the parents on that site or the breeder himself........ seems like the person gets those puppies from different sources.


i don't think the parents can be seen because they are probably not living in the best of living conditions. i think a byb will have the parents on sight and let you see them... i think more of a puppy mill when i think lots of breeds, profit and no parents


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## Ory&C (Mar 20, 2005)

Yeah, I guess you're right...... it looks like they have a real "business" going on there!!


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

i'm just curious but what exactly makes a "byb" different from a other breeder? i understand the puppymill thing- which is sooo awful. but i don't understand exactly what a byb is. i mean what seperates them from any other breeder?


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

stephybooboo said:


> i'm just curious but what exactly makes a "byb" different from a other breeder? i understand the puppymill thing- which is sooo awful. but i don't understand exactly what a byb is. i mean what seperates them from any other breeder?


imo.. a byb is a breeder who is breeding their dog because it is registered, maybe trying to recoup some of the money spent on buying their dog, do not do the proper research needed to breed the dog to breed standards, and do not properly have their dogs tested for genetic health issues so easily passed down. 

they breed because they want to save their friends some money... so than they have not bred to a quality stud or bitch. they think they have a nice dog and want to pass on that personality. though i bet the breed already has some pups on the ground that have very nice personalities. they want the children to experience the birth. they have a gazillion reasons to breed their pet but i have never seen a good one yet. the reason for this post. is there a good reason to have byb breeding their dogs?


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

so ur saying someone who wants to breed just for thier benifit is a byb basically? right? i was just confused on what the big differences are. thanks for the info!


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

stephybooboo said:


> so ur saying someone who wants to breed just for thier benifit is a byb basically? right? i was just confused on what the big differences are. thanks for the info!


imo anyone who is not breeding to breed standard and breeding for the benefit of the breed is a byb. i am willing to listen to byb who can shed some light that would change my mind but i haven't seen anything evolve from past experience.


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

i am THINKING of breeding but i am not sure. i know it takes a lot of time and money. i just love the breed and would love to see some beautiful puppies that fall within breed standard because here there really aren't many (in my state). i am not sure if my kujo falls within standard or not i am looking up info on that now. i am also consuliting with an experienced breeder(she's been breeding chis only for at least 15 years). i am just thinking about this i am not sure so please please dont' critisize or yell at me i dont' think i can take anymore. if i do breed it will be after talking to my friend and seeing what all goes into it and how hard it is i never know it may not be for me i know it's not as easy as getting 2 dog together and making babies a lot can happen.


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

stephybooboo said:


> i am not sure if my kujo falls within standard or not i am looking up info on that now. i am also consuliting with an experienced breeder(she's been breeding chis only for at least 15 years).


well you are on the right track a breeder just because she has been breeding for 15 yrs may not be your first choice for determining if your dog is of stud or bitch quality. take your pup in the showring, start showing if the dog wins you will be on your way to a great start. if not, ask the judge what they didn't like about your dog to score it low? is the head correct? which will include stop, eyes ears, ear position, muzzle, nose, mouth, teeth, etc. body structure? coat? color of coat (in some breeds it does matter) there is so much to look at that before i consulted a friend (unless that friend holds a judges card) i would talk to someone who knows quality. or do a search of his pedigree and see how many ch's are in his line. mia is champion sired and produced by a bitch that is also carries a cch. she is definately of show quality ready to take on the best. (edited to add... mia is spayed as are my other girls. when mia hits the showring this fall it will be in 4-h, obidience and agililty.

just do your research and you will make the right decision for you and the pups you may be finding homes for. 
i have never known a byb to take back one of their pups if it needs to be rehomed. a reputable breeder follows the pup and has a contract signed that if the owner can no longer keep the dog it will be returned to the breeder. my dogs all have the 1/2 if of the purchase price in the contract if i am unable to keep for whatever reason.


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

Steph sweetie 
On one website alone puppyfind.com there are 7 pages 61 chihuahuas trying to find a home right now in your state. There are prob another at least 100 other classifieds that look the same as puppyfind. There will never not be enough chihuahua's or other dogs avalible in your state.
Thus your post and reason for wanting to breed imo would make you a puppymill. No hard feelings not bashing you just stated how I feel.


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

clek i would not be a puppy mill. i said i am considering it not sure if i will do it or not so don't get all excited and start flippin out on me. 
i would take back any pup that needed a new home. i have looked at all the contract stuff and i will definetly do that if i decide to breed. it's just an idea not for sure what i will be doing yet. i am not sure if there are dog shows near i will have to check into that. at the moment i have small kids so this will be far far in the future. i am going to be very picky about the dogs i do breed. this will not be on a whim- i am carfully considering this. i may not do it i'm too worried aboutloosing a dog giving birth that scares me to death. that's all i have to say.


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

Clek1430 said:


> i just wanted to comment on the littel cutie in your avatar
> 
> i love dogs...animals in general. i just would like to see people wisen up and see that until the overpopulation of dogs, cats, horses etc, is stopped there will alway be rescues, kill shelters and slaughter.


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

awww ty thats my baby. not sure if he's breed quality yet so i will wait til he gets bigger. it's so hard resisting a new chi pup tho!! lol i'm addicted now it's sad


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

Steph I am not flipping out on you. I also meant BYB not puppymill. You will never be able to breed and breed right if you will not allow others to say anything to you about it. Instead of getting upset read what I said your reasons are not good enough to make you a responsible breeder. All I am saying is reevaluate think of better reasons for being a breeder and start there. And yes there are dogs shows all over the world I am sure some will fall in your area.


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

clek i didn't get upset. but i said i am thinking about it not set in stone yet. i have my doubts but i would like to breed. i might not have the time or enegry for it. i was also saying that i think my reasons are pretty good- i'm not doing it for money or family although family has reserved the first littler if there is one lol. i might try it one time if it's not for me my female will be spayed or keepen away from my male when she is in heat. i am not sure. i like constructive critism i just dont' like to be jumped on like i have been in previous posts by ohter memebers. i may be on the defense a little because of that but i am not upset with you at all.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

Breeding is very expensive, and you said before that you couldn't afford to get training for the 8 month old puppy that you gave to the pound. What if your female needs a c-section?


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

jessie i'm not arguing with you. if you would read my posts in this thread it says in the future i have small kids now so it would not be anytime soon.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

The future could mean tomorrow, or even 50 years from now. You never mentioned how far into the future.

How am I even trying to argue with you? If you want to be a breeder, you need to take criticism.


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

whew! i was getting worried that maybe this thread was going to take a turn for the worse and i would not hear from the other side. 

dogs, or any pet, does not have to be show quality or up to breed standard to be loved. but it should be of that quality imo, if you are thinking of breeding. i feel that is the only way to cut down on the overpopulation of our pets.


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

Darla 
Does the other side even answer things like this lol.


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

Clek1430 said:


> Darla
> Does the other side even answer things like this lol.


geesh they don't seem to be crawling out of the woodwork do they. you have a cutie putie i love little pink foo foo ... my daughter wants zoey to have one. i haven't given in yet though i don't know why.... she wore a red velvet dress for Christmas. guess that is why we got her a pocket pooch to spoil


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

Nope, they sure don't I also think that when you adress them as BYB's they start to look all around they are not sure who you are talking about.
Thanks! about Demi
I think Zoey would look great in a party collar


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## CM Katie (Sep 28, 2005)

Clek1430 said:


> Steph sweetie
> On one website alone puppyfind.com there are 7 pages 61 chihuahuas trying to find a home right now in your state.


How can you search for chis specifically in one state? I've been trying to figure out if I can do that. For example, I want to look for chis exclusively in Illinois on puppyfind.com-- is that possible?


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

Katie yup it sure is. When you go to the chis click and once you are in and the list is up for all the dogs, on the right hand side right above the list it says location search. The only thing is everytime you look at a pic then go back you have to go back twice and click on the search again.


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

Katie 18 said:


> How can you search for chis specifically in one state? I've been trying to figure out if I can do that. For example, I want to look for chis exclusively in Illinois on puppyfind.com-- is that possible?


after you log in to your puppyfind account than click on search for puppies. after you select the breed you want than look up in the right corner of the box (same box that has the breeds name in it) and it will have a location search. you can search by breed and than do a preference on sex and location too


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## tasel (Dec 2, 2005)

Clek1430 said:


> Steph sweetie
> On one website alone puppyfind.com there are 7 pages 61 chihuahuas trying to find a home right now in your state. There are prob another at least 100 other classifieds that look the same as puppyfind. There will never not be enough chihuahua's or other dogs avalible in your state.
> Thus your post and reason for wanting to breed imo would make you a puppymill. No hard feelings not bashing you just stated how I feel.



Well, I somehow wished we had that many chis here in the UK alone - then at least the prices wouldn't have gone up astronomically!!! You HARDLY EVER find a chi at a rescue here (unless they are there because they have been stolen/gone lost and will most likely go back to their owners), you HARDLY EVER see an advert for a chi in the local classifieds like you have there in the States, there's only really some internet ad websites and Epupz. You can also contact the breeders directly, of course - which helped me with my first chi, but as they are so much in demand at the moment, it isn't much of use. As a breeder actually told me: here in the UK, we have it the other way around compared to the U.S. - there surelyis a lot more demand than supply. There is certainly no overpopulation of chihuahuas here.

Most of our chis are also quite inbred - they all seem to have the same 4th/5th generation ancestors... we quite simply do not have as many chis as you guys in the States - so I do hope you understand when I say that I wish they would breed more chis here. And that's why I think our opinions sometimes clashes - we are just simply in a very different situation compared to you in the States. Although we have kennelnames such as Dachida (last year's Crufts winner), we do not quite have as many breeders as in the U.S. In fact, many "proper" breeders here start out as what you may call a BYB. My younger chis breeder only started breeding about 3-4 years ago, and yet, she has already bred her first champion...


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## poppy (Mar 23, 2006)

> Breeding is very expensive, and you said before that you couldn't afford to get training for the 8 month old puppy that you gave to the pound. What if your female needs a c-section?


Ongoing training of a dangerous dog is a long term investement in an animal that you no longer have any trust in.. money that could not be recouped..and a "cure" is not gaurenteed..... if you pay for your bitch to have a c-section at least you know that you will be able to replace money spent with the "adoption fees" for the litter, 



> The future could mean tomorrow, or even 50 years from now. You never mentioned how far into the future.
> 
> How am I even trying to argue with you? If you want to be a breeder, you need to take criticism.
> __________________


why do potential breeders need to take critiscm about their current financial situation or their decisions ? Many of us may consider breeding in the future.. tomorrow or 50 years.... and I would not expect to be taken to task because I had got rid of a dog that attacked a toddler..


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## tasel (Dec 2, 2005)

poppy said:


> Ongoing training of a dangerous dog is a long term investement in an animal that you no longer have any trust in.. money that could not be recouped..and a "cure" is not gaurenteed..... if you pay for your bitch to have a c-section at least you know that you will be able to replace money spent with the "adoption fees" for the litter,
> why do potential breeders need to take critiscm about their current financial situation or their decisions ? Many of us may consider breeding in the future.. tomorrow or 50 years.... and I would not expect to be taken to task because I had got rid of a dog that attacked a toddler..



Poppy :notworthy: :thumbup:

Well written and explained... totally agree with you.


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## Cassiepeia (Apr 28, 2006)

Oh how I detest puppyfind.com  

Stephy....Your best bet if you're interested in the breed is to find a breeder mentor who will allow you to help out with their dogs, long term. You should be allowed to help out with shows etc... Basically allowing you to get experience dealing with show/breeding dogs and the whole world surrounding them. 
Never start to breed without that, it's essential to have an inside view of what it takes to be a reputable breeder.

IMO anyone who breeds and doesn't show & doesn't test their dogs for genetic problems, is a byb. 

Showing is _very_ important in this breed because it's not a working dog and there isn't another way to evaluate it's structure. You _need_ an independant third party to tell you the truth about your dogs because we all suffer from "kennel blindness", meaning...we think our dogs are the best and are perfect.  Which is fine and true for us as _pet_ owners of course, but not good enough for the breed as a whole.

dlambertz...You asked why they breed? They breed because they can and most importantly because *we buy*. 

The biggest problem is that most people don't seem to care where the pup comes from, as long as _they get it NOW_ not later. Gods forbid they should have to wait a year to get a pup from a reputable breeder when they could just walk into a petshop, a byb or use a credit card to buy one online and get it, no questions asked, straight away. 

The dogs are never the first priority for most people, it's just the "I want, I want, I want" attitude that takes over. 

But if we don't buy...they'll stop breeding. What will happen to the pups no one buys? They'll most likely end up in shelters where people can adopt them, safe in the knowledge they did NOT fund a byb. 

Ack! Yet another rant from Cass. LOL Sorry.  I swear my posts never start out that way. 

Cass.


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## Tucker-N-Jasper (Aug 6, 2005)

> Does the other side even answer things like this lol.....Nope, they sure don't I also think that when you adress them as BYB's they start to look all around they are not sure who you are talking about.


You know I should just stay out of these types of discussion but they really upset me. First I am not and never will be personally interested in breeding. Not to single out any particular person or post but only to give a point of reference, for the sake of the discussion, its posts like this that would cause any one even remotely interested in _learning _about breeding to not raise a hand. 

Every single person who has posted as interested gets blasted as a potential BYB. While "those in the know" are praised for their opinion. Foxy herself calls herself a breeder yet she hasn't yet bred her own dogs nor shown her own dogs.. yet no one dare call her a BYB because she does have knowledge, research and mentoring experience. Why not give any new pesron that same courtesy and instead of trying to belittle them give information only so that they too may become informed and experienced. (No offense nor flame meant for Foxy, but acknowledgement of her position)

Secondly, there are a lot of righteous opinions about "I'd never..." and "no one should..." well good for you, you did your research and made your educated and personal decision. However, the tone of the posts comes off as "better than thou".... not very informative--- while admittedly, inferring tone on the written word is subjective to the reader's state of mind.

One's opinion is just that an opinion, not a fact and definitely not information sharing. So instead of intimidating those who do speak up, why not post a topic that states fact and information. And then, if someone should decide to take the next step we can applaud them for doing their research and finding information. In the end every one has the right to make their own educated or (hopefullly not) uneducated decision. The fact that they are discussing it implies at least the beginnings of education.

::::: stepping down now ::::::::


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

poppy thank you. i just said i was thinking about it and BAM here it came- i should have known better i guess. 
i am going to fallow a breeder for a while. until she and i think i am ready to do it on my own. she has bred for many years and offered to help me and to help register my chi now. 
i think ppl start these threads to fight. that's the only thing they can do. it's mean. thankfully i can ignore those i dont' care to hear from because it seems that no matter what i say or do they won't be happy.


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

also i forgot something- mostof the chis on the petfinder sight are not good for kids i have looked. i have 2 small kids so i need a pup to grow with them. i will not get an older dog that already is set in it's ways or i will have the same problem i did with my other dog. i tried to get a 3 yr old sheltie mix about a year ago. she was a beautiful dog had been raised with kids since day 1. my son then 10 months (about) walked near her, she had a raw hide chew and she growled and showed her teeth at him. that dog was gone within 10 mintues back to where i got her from. i would love to adopt a chi- the classifieds often have pups (not just chis) that are up for adoption. i look every day at least 3 or 4 times hoping i would find one. i have emailed about every chi within 2 hours of me(my husband will not let me drive further than that) either they are all gone or WAY out of my price range. i am saving up for my next chi after i get all my bills squared away. in the future at least 1-2 years probably longer.


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

stephybooboo said:


> i think ppl start these threads to fight. that's the only thing they can do. it's mean. thankfully i can ignore those i dont' care to hear from because it seems that no matter what i say or do they won't be happy.


i did not start this thread to fight. i am not that type of person and i can hear all sides and from there make a decision. this subject was brought up on another forum i belong too. i wanted to see what the responses from byb was here. 

i stated this was my opinion...not a fact just my opinion. so far i have not seen a post here that has changed my mind. i still think a reputable breeder whose concern is for the breed is the only option to take when buying a puppy. at least that is the case for me. i get far to attachted to lose one to something genetic that could have been prevented by a knowledgeable breeder. 

i have flamed no one and i will not do so. i am able to state my opinions without inflicting pain unto someone else. 

the other forum started out as ways to prevent so many pets from being euthanized.... 

sorry to have made you feel this thread was started to start a fight.


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

Tucker said:


> its posts like this that would cause any one even remotely interested in _learning _about breeding to not raise a hand. QUOTE]
> 
> why would a post like this cause someone not to do the research and do what it takes to be a reputable breeder? i would think it would have the opposite affect and have them do what it took to get a name and develop a kennel worthy of getting noticed. again jmo...


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## Cassiepeia (Apr 28, 2006)

stephybooboo said:


> poppy thank you. i just said i was thinking about it and BAM here it came- i should have known better i guess.
> i am going to fallow a breeder for a while. until she and i think i am ready to do it on my own. she has bred for many years and offered to help me and to help register my chi now.
> i think ppl start these threads to fight. that's the only thing they can do. it's mean. thankfully i can ignore those i dont' care to hear from because it seems that no matter what i say or do they won't be happy.


I think it's wonderful you've found a mentor and that you're willing to come out and say you're thinking about breeding. Personally it shows a great deal of maturity. 

Tucker...people get passionate about their breeds and the last thing they/we want is another person breeding out of selfishness and greed. I don't think Stephy is going to do that but since this thread was about 'why' byb breeders breed and the question 'what is a byb' was brought up, I see no reason why anyone should hold back on a description of a byb. 

No one, at least as far as I can see, is trying to be "better than thou". We're just answering the question that was asked. And in this case there are 'Do's and Don'ts', 'shoulds and should nots' regarding this particular interest. For the sake of the dogs, there has to be. 

This is a good topic and a good thread. I'm glad dlambertz started it.

Cass.


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

Tucker said:


> You know I should just stay out of these types of discussion but they really upset me. First I am not and never will be personally interested in breeding. Not to single out any particular person or post but only to give a point of reference, for the sake of the discussion, its posts like this that would cause any one even remotely interested in _learning _about breeding to not raise a hand.
> 
> Every single person who has posted as interested gets blasted as a potential BYB. While "those in the know" are praised for their opinion. Foxy herself calls herself a breeder yet she hasn't yet bred her own dogs nor shown her own dogs.. yet no one dare call her a BYB because she does have knowledge, research and mentoring experience. Why not give any new pesron that same courtesy and instead of trying to belittle them give information only so that they too may become informed and experienced. (No offense nor flame meant for Foxy, but acknowledgement of her position)


 I have no problem answering questions about breeding if I know them. Also if someone would ask a proper question. I guess my point is you should really research breeding before you come on a public forum and say hey I want to be a breeder. My dog is cute or I think my dog has a good personality. I can't help it, posts like this just send me through the roof. I just can't keep my mouth shut. I don't know what Foxy is or isn't but 'most' of her posts are factual. I have said it before and I will say it again I think it is great if people want to breed but I also think that sometimes people that want to breed don't know much about basic everyday care for their dogs. It's hard to support breeding when this is the case. I don't feel a dog HAS to be shown but in most cases people don't know what the breed standard even is. These dogs should be at least looked at by someone to help the owner evaluate their dogs. The background is very important as well, You don't want to just breed anything that may have a genetic fault.


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## Dazeworkfarm (Jun 15, 2004)

Okay- I am a "BYB"-from the criteria/reasonings you laid out....I really did not see too many replies that were answering your question, evidently then I qualify as a "byb". SO, BYB's are not necessarily bad for their interested breeds- not everyone can show, promote, travel, spend, run a kennel to turn out the epitomy/perfection of any breed for the perfectly qualified purchaser/owner- most people want a ggood dog, good temperment, good looks to be proud of as a pet and companion. So each individual either spays and has pets or gets knowledagble and probably breeds (makes the world go round) As a "BYB", I have studied, been raising dogs and horses since high school, researched, consistently spend time, money and physical energy taking care of these animals. I "breed" when I see that I will have the energies required to follow through till the babies are settled in their new homes. If you look under the buyers and sellers discussion I try to explain the "pricing" from my perspective- and you are correct- you do not make a killer profit. But if you are going to breed (curiosity killed the cat- satisfaction brought it back) the puppies should go somewhere fitting- they are alive and need good homes- they are not experiments! SO they get sold....to say that BYB's have no place in providing decent animals is not fair- it is just not that black and white. If no BYB's (what? only licensed/approved breeders?) then everything, every animal and everyone that could breed should be spayed and neutered-?.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

poppy said:


> Ongoing training of a dangerous dog is a long term investement in an animal that you no longer have any trust in.. money that could not be recouped..and a "cure" is not gaurenteed..... if you pay for your bitch to have a c-section at least you know that you will be able to replace money spent with the "adoption fees" for the litter,
> 
> 
> 
> why do potential breeders need to take critiscm about their current financial situation or their decisions ? Many of us may consider breeding in the future.. tomorrow or 50 years.... and I would not expect to be taken to task because I had got rid of a dog that attacked a toddler..


She has had 18 dogs in her life... and I believe that she is in her early 20s. Including my parents' dogs- I have had 6... and these are lifetime pets... including the 3 I have now.


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## Courtney (Jun 2, 2005)

I think some people respond to these threads to get some kind of reaction. There are certain members that always seem to pop up in these kinds of threads. I think that they like the drama that is caused. (not directed at you jessie.  )


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I agree, Courtney. It really does seem like people want reactions. If you want to breed, you should research, and have enough money in case something goes wrong.


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## Gracie'smom (Jan 7, 2006)

I don't think that you can make a list that will quickly define what exactly makes one a byb (or should I say bad breeder?) I've known quite a few that probably fit the bill, but their hearts were in the right place, and the did the right things.
My parents bred their doxies because the vet said that it would be better for the female to have a litter. No puppies were ever so pampered, they and the mom got great medical care, and 5 people got some great pups, with papers. My dad really thought that he would make some money off of the deal, but by the time all of the vet bills were paid he realized that they came out even. It's wasn't a profitable venture.
The lady that I bought Gracie from never intended to breed. They had a little accident with their two Chi's before the spay appointment. They took great care of the mother and pups, and Gracie came vet checked and with papers.

I know someone else who I am trying to talk out of breeding. She has a two year old 3 pound Chi that has no papers. She cannot afford proper vet care for this Chi now, and will not be able to pay for maternal care or puppy care. How she will actually find a stud that is the proper size (with her chi having no papers) is beyond me. Yet she is determined to do this, thinking she will make some money and she can "make her own puppy".

This is just one more issue where the people involved and their true heart and true motives aren't always easily discerned. I would never have bought a puppy from someone who called themselves a professional breeder, yet kept all of their dogs in cages all the time, yet I had no problem buying from an "accidental" breeder who had the mother and puppies living in her bedroom and, after the puppies were larger, sleeping in her bed!
It's just too easy to point fingers.


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## Tucker-N-Jasper (Aug 6, 2005)

Clek1430 said:


> I have no problem answering questions about breeding if I know them. Also if someone would ask a proper question. I guess my point is you should really research breeding before you come on a public forum and say hey I want to be a breeder. My dog is cute or I think my dog has a good personality. I can't help it, posts like this just send me through the roof. I just can't keep my mouth shut. I don't know what Foxy is or isn't but 'most' of her posts are factual. I have said it before and I will say it again I think it is great if people want to breed but I also think that sometimes people that want to breed don't know much about basic everyday care for their dogs. It's hard to support breeding when this is the case. I don't feel a dog HAS to be shown but in most cases people don't know what the breed standard even is. These dogs should be at least looked at by someone to help the owner evaluate their dogs. The background is very important as well, You don't want to just breed anything that may have a genetic fault.


I understsand what you're saying. However, my point is if the goal is education and enlightenment why put people on the defensive right off the bat. I can honestly I have not read a single thread where someone mentions the desire to breed (whether just one litter or a whole career) where they weren't immediately tarred and feathered. I know its a touchy subject but there has to be a way to bring up standards and quality that is less offensive.. The classic "why do you want to breed, don't you know there are enough dogs out there...." is inflamatory in tone.


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## Tucker-N-Jasper (Aug 6, 2005)

dlambertz said:


> Tucker said:
> 
> 
> > its posts like this that would cause any one even remotely interested in _learning _about breeding to not raise a hand. QUOTE]
> ...


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## Tucker-N-Jasper (Aug 6, 2005)

Cassiepeia said:


> Tucker...people get passionate about their breeds and the last thing they/we want is another person breeding out of selfishness and greed. I don't think Stephy is going to do that but since this thread was about 'why' byb breeders breed and the question 'what is a byb' was brought up, I see no reason why anyone should hold back on a description of a byb.
> 
> No one, at least as far as I can see, is trying to be "better than thou". We're just answering the question that was asked. And in this case there are 'Do's and Don'ts', 'shoulds and should nots' regarding this particular interest. For the sake of the dogs, there has to be.
> 
> ...


I too, am glad the thread was started, I have no disrespect for the topic nor the OP. My comment was not directed toward the topic my post was directed towards the joking, sideline comments about how no one bothers to post from the other point of view and the following replies were not very welcoming of a flip side of the coin. And yes there are, in my reading perception, tones that are better than thou... post that state I won't ever ever do something like you're considering, I know better.... my point was to comment that those sort of posts are simply argumentative and not informative.


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## Kari (May 13, 2004)

I completely agree with Brenda on this one. I have been here a long time, almost since this site was created and never before have the members here come across so strong about anti-breeding (I'm not saying that all the posters are anti :wink. I try to stay neutral on the site because I am a mod but in my honest opinion as a member here sometimes you guys are quick to jump on members and I personally don't think it's fair.

Steph, clearly stated that she wanted to breed in the future, her children are too young. She is _considering_ and _researching_ it for the _future_. I do not think she is a BYB in the making. All breeders start somewhere, they just aren't breeders out of nowhere. She is asking questions in hopes to get helpful advice. There is a difference between constructive criticism and flat out criticism.

I was considering locking this thread as I see it's potential to get out of control but I have commented and don't think it's fair to not allow your responses.


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## Cassiepeia (Apr 28, 2006)

Dazeworkfarm said:


> Okay- I am a "BYB"-from the criteria/reasonings you laid out....I really did not see too many replies that were answering your question, evidently then I qualify as a "byb". SO, BYB's are not necessarily bad for their interested breeds- not everyone can show, promote, travel, spend, run a kennel to turn out the epitomy/perfection of any breed for the perfectly qualified purchaser/owner- most people want a ggood dog, good temperment, good looks to be proud of as a pet and companion. So each individual either spays and has pets or gets knowledagble and probably breeds (makes the world go round) As a "BYB", I have studied, been raising dogs and horses since high school, researched, consistently spend time, money and physical energy taking care of these animals. I "breed" when I see that I will have the energies required to follow through till the babies are settled in their new homes. If you look under the buyers and sellers discussion I try to explain the "pricing" from my perspective- and you are correct- you do not make a killer profit. But if you are going to breed (curiosity killed the cat- satisfaction brought it back) the puppies should go somewhere fitting- they are alive and need good homes- they are not experiments! SO they get sold....to say that BYB's have no place in providing decent animals is not fair- it is just not that black and white. If no BYB's (what? only licensed/approved breeders?) then everything, every animal and everyone that could breed should be spayed and neutered-?.


What's the point in breeding animals that _aren't_ the best type, temperament and health? Surely we want the pups to have the best start in life?

If I don't mind getting a dog that isn't perfect looking, might not have the perfect temperament for the breed and/or may not have the best start health wise....I'll go to a shelter and save a life. 

There is no need to bring more of these dogs into the world. Reputable breeders do their best to bring the healthiest most sound dogs into the world to share our lives. I see no reason to do anything less.
Not just for the dogs sake but for the sake of people buying them. 

Cass.


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## tasel (Dec 2, 2005)

dlambertz said:


> Tucker said:
> 
> 
> > its posts like this that would cause any one even remotely interested in _learning _about breeding to not raise a hand. QUOTE]
> ...


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

Gracie'smom said:


> I would never have bought a puppy from someone who called themselves a professional breeder, yet kept all of their dogs in cages all the time, yet I had no problem buying from an "accidental" breeder who had the mother and puppies living in her bedroom and, after the puppies were larger, sleeping in her bed!
> It's just too easy to point fingers.


my standard poodle came from a "professional" breeder. i never saw one crate and all of the dogs were allowed in the house.... just not at the same time. all the dogs were immaculately groomed and she took them on weekly poodle packs. outings on her farm where they just go out explore the land. and yes some of them sleep in her bed. all are housetrained... i guess our ideas of professional breeders is highly different. i would never deal with a breeder whose dogs were kenneled and not socialized. that to me is just another version of a puppy mill ... but of course that is just my opinion


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

Dazeworkfarm said:


> Okay- I am a "BYB"-from the criteria/reasonings you laid out....I really did not see too many replies that were answering your question, evidently then I qualify as a "byb". SO, BYB's are not necessarily bad for their interested breeds- not everyone can show, promote, travel, spend, run a kennel to turn out the epitomy/perfection of any breed for the perfectly qualified purchaser/owner- most people want a ggood dog, good temperment, good looks to be proud of as a pet and companion. So each individual either spays and has pets or gets knowledagble and probably breeds (makes the world go round) As a "BYB", I have studied, been raising dogs and horses since high school, researched, consistently spend time, money and physical energy taking care of these animals. I "breed" when I see that I will have the energies required to follow through till the babies are settled in their new homes. If you look under the buyers and sellers discussion I try to explain the "pricing" from my perspective- and you are correct- you do not make a killer profit. But if you are going to breed (curiosity killed the cat- satisfaction brought it back) the puppies should go somewhere fitting- they are alive and need good homes- they are not experiments! SO they get sold....to say that BYB's have no place in providing decent animals is not fair- it is just not that black and white. If no BYB's (what? only licensed/approved breeders?) then everything, every animal and everyone that could breed should be spayed and neutered-?.


i am still just asking and now that you stated you are probably what i would term as a backyard breeder, maybe you will answer it. again i am not wanting to start a fight (though i have been known to like to debate  )
why do you breed dogs?


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

ok...i guess i need to make a point. i am not against the breeding of dogs, cats or horses as the case may be....

spend your day at the local kill shelter as i did for many years and walk the dog back into the "dreaded" room. where in my small community alone there are over 3000 dogs put to sleep every year. some whole litters of puppies because there is just no room for them any more. i have had to take purebred puppies to the "dreaded" to be put to sleep because the byb didn't want to take the pup to the vet. seems like there are a lot of reoccurring visits from the same byb's that had "something" go wrong. i have seen puppies born with missing toes and eyes... it is very sad.

imo breeders need to do a lot more research and testing before they decide to breed.

kari, i didn't start thread to cause trouble. yes, i am an advocate for spaying and neutering. yes i do think there are breeders who are reputable and should be putting pups on the ground for us to enjoy as pets. maybe i should also state that i do see where an accidental breeding may occur... happened to me once. i had just gotten a rescue basset hound (28 yrs ago )and she came into heat just two days after we got her. she was aborted and spayed following the mating.

i should also state that i love more than one breed of dog and i love mutts as well. it is just that i don't think mutts should be bred and than sold as designer pups.


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

Obviously I am the one that has you guys so upset about being anti breeding (which is not true)
Since I was the one that posted to Steph my opinion of her question. She was the one that asked what a BYB was then followed it up with I think I want to breed. Not sure why she even wrote that in this thread anyway it had nothing to do with the topic. The thing is why is no one else giving her good breeding info then. Instead we go on for pages arguing about what's said. If everyone else would have been positive about the statement then the thread would have just gone on and my one or two posts would have just been ignored anyway.


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

i was asking because by defenition i did not know what classifies a BYB because IF i do breed i do NOT want to be one. i do not want to be critisized for being a "BYB". 
i just did not and still do not understand what sets apart a good breeder from a byb- they all start out mostly the same? they may start breeding for different reasons but they all start the same get a male and female and have pups. some are doing it for pure profit some are doing it for the love of the breed. 
i am picking up good info here and there but i will get the majority hands on with my "breeder mentor". i will fallow her for a while and then see what i think i should do. maybe it isn't right for me. maybe it is i won't know til i try.


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

stephybooboo said:


> i was asking because by defenition i did not know what classifies a BYB because IF i do breed i do NOT want to be one. i do not want to be critisized for being a "BYB".
> i just did not and still do not understand what sets apart a good breeder from a byb- they all start out mostly the same? they may start breeding for different reasons but they all start the same get a male and female and have pups. some are doing it for pure profit some are doing it for the love of the breed.
> i am picking up good info here and there but i will get the majority hands on with my "breeder mentor". i will fallow her for a while and then see what i think i should do. maybe it isn't right for me. maybe it is i won't know til i try.


A description of a BYB is what was already posted. Determining who is a BYB really has to be an individual decision. For me I would not pay for a dog that is not AKC, parents both health tested and fall with in the breed standard. I would also look at the background of all the dogs in the pedigree. This would be weather I was planing on breeding my dog or not. With the prices we have to pay for Chi there is no reason the breeder should not do these things. Now if a breeder does not do any of the above they are basically putting two dogs together of unknown background and health and charging us the buyers a arm and a leg for it. There for padding their own pockets because they are not taking the right steps to make sure they have healthy pups. This is not saying that these pups are not healthy but you would have a better chance with a breeder who is selective etc.


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

Clek1430 said:


> A description of a BYB is what was already posted. Determining who is a BYB really has to be an individual decision. For me I would not pay for a dog that is not AKC, parents both health tested and fall with in the breed standard. I would also look at the background of all the dogs in the pedigree. This would be weather I was planing on breeding my dog or not. With the prices we have to pay for Chi there is no reason the breeder should not do these things. Now if a breeder does not do any of the above they are basically putting two dogs together of unknown background and health and charging us the buyers a arm and a leg for it. There for padding their own pockets because they are not taking the right steps to make sure they have healthy pups. This is not saying that these pups are not healthy but you would have a better chance with a breeder who is selective etc.


i am with you...i always research a breeder and only buy dogs that the parents have been tested and my pups come with health guarantees. i also believe you are probably not anti-breeding... i am not but i want those who do breed to be breeding for the right reasons. breeding at the very least to the breed standard.


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## Kari (May 13, 2004)

Clek I didn't get upset :lol: it takes a whole lot to get me upset and this isn't even on my radar. :wink:

I guess what I meant by anti-breeding is some of you seem to be that way towards 'beginners'. Whether I agree with you or not isn't really the point because I actually do :wink: . It's just the manner in which the posts come across, they sound so strong. I think your last post was very informative in response to her question and was expressed with respect. :thumbright:


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## Dazeworkfarm (Jun 15, 2004)

Well I bred the dog because I wanted to - 1) see what she and the sire would produce given their genetics, style and colors 2) provide myself with an offspring of the two before they are neutered 3) give someone else the opportunity to enjoy this breed from puppyhood as we have. Nad we are fully prepared to keep and mainntain them ourselves as family members. We have 4 adopted/spayed/shelter dogs and these two Chi's were specifically picked akc dogs for their quality. So we do understand the issues of over-population, bad owners, puppy mills, etc. But we have faith in people and nature and know that there is good too in the canine and equine arenas. Apologize if interjections were taken wrong or considered dramatic or of no value added- just wanted to answer honestly a direct and valid question/topic. Thought it was and is a good discussion that has two sides as everything does....ethics are what seperate and promote the cream to the top in any field.


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## sesar_galvez (Apr 23, 2006)

i agree its all about the profit...for breeding...
BUT THE BEST REASON I KNOW OF BREEDING is that a breeder only breeds to give away ..by the way i got my chihuhuahua's for free..i would NEVER buy an ANIMAL!!! only if its FREE because it needs a home or if its for ADOPTION!!!!! because there are just too many animals in shelter! so never buy! adopt and provide home
i've adopted a couple of GREYHOUNDS who are now loving it!


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## sesar_galvez (Apr 23, 2006)

THE ONLY REASON I HAVE ANIMALS IS TO PROVIDE THEM WITH LOVE >>>AND A HOME!
not to keep them at home. ..unhappy and not living the life of a dog
P.S,.
A DOG LIVES BEST AS A DOG!!! ((not inside the house bored! but take him to the park or for a long long long walk for hours))


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

Sesar isn't your dog about to have puppies?


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## sesar_galvez (Apr 23, 2006)

yes, i believe im saving her
i took her into my home from a family member
and she was already pregnant by some lil' chi
i say lil' cus she is BIG for a chi size ..over 6 or so


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

sesar_galvez said:


> ..i would NEVER buy an ANIMAL!!! only if its FREE because it needs a home or if its for ADOPTION!!!!!


it has been proven time and time again that people tend to put a money value on a dog. so if the dog was free they tend to not want to spend money on it. it the dog would need a major surgery they will not pay to vet it and maybe not even pay to euthanize. 

i am not stating you or anyone else on the forum is guilty of this so please don't read into that statement.


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## sesar_galvez (Apr 23, 2006)

dlambertz said:


> it has been proven time and time again that people tend to put a money value on a dog. so if the dog was free they tend to not want to spend money on it. it the dog would need a major surgery they will not pay to vet it and maybe not even pay to euthanize.
> 
> i am not stating you or anyone else on the forum is guilty of this so please don't read into that statement.


dont judge (PREJUDICE) all of us that we wont pay any necessity an animal needs like surgery...its a living thing!


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

There are many people who will abuse an animal if it is given to them for free. I, for one, would never give a way an animal without charging an adoption fee. If someone is willing to pay for an animal, they are much less likely to abuse it or not pay for medical care.


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## sesar_galvez (Apr 23, 2006)

i do agree with you... but not every person will abuse an animal..most.


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## Gypsy (Feb 13, 2006)

I haven't commented on this thread yet because it's such a controversial subject that continues to get heated in every post. I'll just say this, in my opinion the most important qualities for a breeder to have are having healthy dogs and puppies and backing up their health, being responsible for any puppies produced for the rest of their lives, (meaning taking them back if for some reason the new owner can't keep them, giving advice and answering any questions, etc.), and caring for the dogs in a manner I think is appropriate. I don't think it's appropriate at all to have dogs living out of the house in a kennel situation, some people aren't bothered by it but I am. I don't think any dog, especially a dog which will be bred can have the proper socialization and mental development if they aren't kept in with the rest of the family. (Not to mention it's a horrible life for them to stay in a cage being a breeding machine all their days)

Breeding to the standard is important also. To better the breed and continue on your lines is the main goal and point of breeding if you're a serious breeder. I think most classified as backyard breeders are breeding more for themselves, for friends or family to have a puppy, or some to make a quick buck. I can't tell anyone whether to breed or not breed their dog but I think anyone planning to go into it should study carefully what will be involved and learn everything they can in order to make a well informed decision. When people post on here wanting to know about breeding, I try to educate them on the downsides as well since most already know the upsides, which may seem like I'm being negative, but I really am just trying to help.


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

sesar_galvez said:


> dont judge (PREJUDICE) all of us that we wont pay any necessity an animal needs like surgery...its a living thing!


did i not state this was not directed at you or anyone else on this forum. it is a known fact. i am not judging or prejudice.


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

you had a great post and it is how i see a reputable breeder.


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## CM Katie (Sep 28, 2005)

Clek1430 said:


> Katie yup it sure is. When you go to the chis click and once you are in and the list is up for all the dogs, on the right hand side right above the list it says location search. The only thing is everytime you look at a pic then go back you have to go back twice and click on the search again.


Omg thank you so much!!!! That makes my life a whole lot easier!!


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## Cassiepeia (Apr 28, 2006)

Gypsy said:


> I haven't commented on this thread yet because it's such a controversial subject that continues to get heated in every post. I'll just say this, in my opinion the most important qualities for a breeder to have are having healthy dogs and puppies and backing up their health, being responsible for any puppies produced for the rest of their lives, (meaning taking them back if for some reason the new owner can't keep them, giving advice and answering any questions, etc.), and caring for the dogs in a manner I think is appropriate. I don't think it's appropriate at all to have dogs living out of the house in a kennel situation, some people aren't bothered by it but I am. I don't think any dog, especially a dog which will be bred can have the proper socialization and mental development if they aren't kept in with the rest of the family. (Not to mention it's a horrible life for them to stay in a cage being a breeding machine all their days)
> 
> Breeding to the standard is important also. To better the breed and continue on your lines is the main goal and point of breeding if you're a serious breeder. I think most classified as backyard breeders are breeding more for themselves, for friends or family to have a puppy, or some to make a quick buck. I can't tell anyone whether to breed or not breed their dog but I think anyone planning to go into it should study carefully what will be involved and learn everything they can in order to make a well informed decision. When people post on here wanting to know about breeding, I try to educate them on the downsides as well since most already know the upsides, which may seem like I'm being negative, but I really am just trying to help.


Very nicely put! 

Cass.


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## kitty (Dec 29, 2005)

ok here it goes.. My mom anI breed Boston Terriers for over 10 yrs. All of our pups were given health checks,shots,worming,lived in house an given total attention an love. Back when we bred Bostons werent widely known an we did it to better the breed because our babies had good disposition,markings, etc. even tho they were never judged or shown we produced show quailty dogs, several were shown. We also had to take back 2 of our dogs because ppl who bought them didnt realize how hard it can be to raise a pup. all of our buyers signed a hand written contract an we answered any an all questions, kept in contact with lots of the ppl who bought pups over the years, several ppl came back an bought more than 1 pup from us an lots told us we never charged enough for the quailty of pup we sold which back then they sold for 125.00 an up to 200.00 we also produced a rare color that AKC finally recognized as Seal Brown an White which sold for 500.00. Some may have considered us Byb but I dont .. we saw lots of Byb's pups an over all looked in poor health an poor living conditions. ours recieved the best of care an love in the end I htink thats what is the most important when buying a pet.


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

kitty said:


> Some may have considered us Byb but I dont .. we saw lots of Byb's pups an over all looked in poor health an poor living conditions. ours recieved the best of care an love in the end I htink thats what is the most important when buying a pet.


you don't sound like a byb to me  sounds like you raised some nice bostons 

we had a boston as a kid..bullet ... he was such a nice dog. maybe someday i will have another but not until the house is empty of what we have now lol!


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## Kari (May 13, 2004)

I agree, you sound like a responsible breeder. :wink:

I LOVE Bostons :love5: and if I ever move out of my apartment into a house, I just may get me a little girl.


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## dlambertz (Nov 13, 2005)

Kari said:


> I agree, you sound like a responsible breeder. :wink:
> 
> I LOVE Bostons :love5: and if I ever move out of my apartment into a house, I just may get me a little girl.


if i had the room i would probably be a collector and have one almost every breed. they all come with such kewl traits it is hard to sometimes decide which breed best suits a person


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## Kari (May 13, 2004)

:lol: I know what you mean. :wink: Two other breeds I love are Boxer's and French Bulldogs. :wink: 

I have had a thing for Bostons forever but I chose the chihuahua because they are smaller and I live in an apartment. Now that I have three, I guess I could have gotten a Boston. :lol:


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## Gypsy (Feb 13, 2006)

My boyfriend has a boston terrier, which is more his mom's than his, but he's adorable. :love5: He's quite gentle with Cosette and Deedlit so maybe you'll have to add one to your family someday Kari.  I love frenchies too, those bat ears are soo precious.


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## Kari (May 13, 2004)

I would love to add one to my family. :wink: A little girl.


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## kitty (Dec 29, 2005)

I love Boston an Chis an hope to have 1 of each someday I cant wait I miss having furbabies around.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I love Boston Terriers and French Bulldogs. When we move into a house, that is what Ian wants to get


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## kitty (Dec 29, 2005)

I tell you my youngest lil bro was a total terror when he was lil an our Bostons had the best temperment an disposition with him, Now with that said yes my Mom an I tried to teach him the right way to treat an animal at an early age but he never really listened when he was lil. Even still the Bostons we had where such loving things an so full of energy an life! I miss them all so much an they truly helped me in times of need as well as my granma's chis!!(my granma lived with us off an on an I took care of the Chis when she did)


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