# Chihuahua Types



## curiouschi (Feb 26, 2009)

Hi I am new to this forum and have lots of questions about chihuahuas but I will start off with just one for now. I have noticed when googling images of chihuahuas that they differ quite significantly in looks. I know they come in long coat and smooth coat. I particularly like the smooth coated dogs but even amongst the smooth coated ones they seem to differ in type. It seems some have longer legs and are finer boned with larger ears, a longer muzzle and what looks like finer fur. Then others are shorter and a little stockier with a shorter muzzzle and more coarse looking fur. Is this a difference in american and brittish breeding? I have read that there are two types the deer headed and the apple headed. Are these both recognised by the kennell club? I quite like the look of the ones with the longer legs and muzzle and bigger ears, (deer head I think), are these types bred in the uk do you know. 
Thanks


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Hi, welcome to Chi People. I'm not sure if the differences you are talking about are American vs British breeding. I think there are variances in both countries. You are right that there are deer headed and apple headed types. In America, these differences are not noted on AKC papers. It is just a registered Chihuahua, no matter what kind of head it has. 

Here is a link to the AKC page with several photos of Chihuahua's that conform to the standard here:

http://www.akc.org/breeds/chihuahua/photos.cfm

If you are looking for one with longer head, muzzle, ears than the standard calls for, you probably won't be buying from a show breeder. As they will try to conform to the standard and not deviate from it. However, you may be able to find that look by buying from a small hobby breeder. You would be looking for pet quality.

If you start looking at breeder websites, you can tell pretty quick if their dogs are show quality vs pet quality by how they look. Regardless, you want to buy from a responsible breeder.

Hope this helps!

Brodysmom


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## Ciarra (May 6, 2008)

Welcome, Chihuahuas come in all sizes and shapes. They are so different just like people.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

There are so many breeders out there breeding so many different likenesses of the breed that as said above they come in all shapes, sizes and colors. They are all recognized by the AKC if registered with the AKC but they do not always match the Kennel Club Standard of the different Kennel Clubs. ;-) This would only matter if you did intend to show .


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## curiouschi (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks, btw your dogs are adorable. I would not be looking to show. The most important thing would be to find a good breeder with healthy dogs. There are so many back yard breeders over here in Ireland just looking to make a quick buck.


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## ~*Jessie*~ (Aug 8, 2007)

With technical terms, there are only two "types" of chis: long coated and short coated. 

As with any breed, you can have variation in looks depending on how closely the breeder is following the "breed standard" set forth by the kennel clubs.

Chihuahuas meeting the breed standard have apple domed heads, large eyes, erect ears, short legs, cobby bodies, etc.

Although the apple domed head is a dominant feature of the chihuahua, occasionally there will be a puppy in the litter with a longer snout and a less sloping head. Even two show dogs can throw a "deer headed", longer legged puppy.

Although these are purebred chihuahuas, they don't conform to the breed standard, if that makes sense.

I would suggest getting together a list of responsible breeders and telling them what you're looking for, which is in essence a pet quality puppy. Like I said, even two super breed standard chis can have variations in their litters with less typey puppies. 

I personally wouldn't buy from a breeder who is specifically breeding for "deer headed" chihuahuas, though. Generally, if a breeder isn't breeding to the chi standard they aren't familiar with the breed and/or are breeding for money without the best interest of the chihuahua breed in mind.

Good luck on your doggy search


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## curiouschi (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks Jessie, that is very interesting and very helpfull. So it is possible for two small show quality dogs to produce a puppy that could grow taller than them and have a longer muzzle? I think 9 inches is the max isnt it or can dogs taller than that appear. My whippet is 18inches to the shoulder and although she is extremely gentle, I think I would want to go for a tall chihuahua, definately not as small as six inches anyway.


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## katsrevenge (Nov 24, 2008)

Hmmm, if you google deer head chihuahua, you should be able to find what you are looking for. From what I've read, those breeders think it is closer to the 'natural' shape of the chihuahua instead of the round head and flattened snout that is currently preferred. I like them too... would be a shame to do to this breed what has been done to bulldogs and the ilk.

If you are familiar with cats, it is similar to the debate between those who breed the Modern Siamese and those who breed the Classic Siamese. (The modern has the thin stretched out look while the classic looks more like a regular cat, if a more refined one.) All that ends up happening is two groups with two registries and two sets of shows yelling at the other about how the other is wrong and misguided.


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## lakeshorechihuahuas (Sep 24, 2008)

To me the AKC standard is what a Chihuahua should be like or at least, that is what I like in one. I love the apple head and shorter nose. That is JMO.


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## katsrevenge (Nov 24, 2008)

Oh, they are all cute! Please don't get me wrong! This is all JMO as well. I just feel that when breeding to a standard, the fact that the dog/cat/bird/whatever has to live with whatever it has been bred to look like. And, frankly, if one doesn't like the standard from one group, there are other groups. That was basically my point. 

Seriously though, haven't you ever seen one of those bulldogs with the flat flat face and the round head in the summertime? I feel for them every time I see one snorfling along, head all down and tongue dragging. They actually tell people to not take them out in the heat because they might die. I've seen pictures of chihuahuas getting close to that short nose thing. Which is funny... because in their native land those chis would die from the heat. I just don't see the point in breeding animals which have those disadvantages and have to live with them just because it is 'cute'. 

It's kinda like good hips in German Shepards. People had to fight to make testing for good hips a priority, but I don't think the AKC requires it... they just care about looks. (Which interestingly enough is why most police operations which use GSDs import German bred dogs. The American lines are just bred for show whereas the Germans breed for all round excellence. Basically, the American dogs are big, dumb and pretty while the German dogs aren't as big, learn lots faster and aren't as pretty.) 

Hmmm... I don't breed dogs. But I do breed fish. I breed betta spledens. I work with a type known as plaket dragons. (And no, they look nothing like the ones you'd find in a pet store, veil tails haven't been showable for years, although that may be changing. ) This type is characterized by a heavy coating on the scales to look like armor. 

A while ago I bought a female from the interwebs for breeding. She was perfect in every way but one. The heavy coating on her body had started to cover her eyes. Now, I could have bred her... the IBC standard doesn't say anything about them being able to see. Or, I could just keep her as a pet and not pass that trait on. She died blind and childless last year, and my project was delayed till I found new breeders. I'm still working on the 'perfect fish' but hey...who cares how long it takes. One day I'll have my line of lovely asymmetrical plaket dragons that have no problems seeing.


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## freedomchis (Jul 28, 2007)

i love both types long coat and short coat 

there is quite a few great show breeders in ireland and not all of them are in it for the money!!!

it depends which breeder you go to you could try the ikc or the kc to find out if there is breeders of chihuahuas in your area or near you
plus you could always ask if you could see there chihuahuas and they way they are brought up and looked after then you could see the type of chihuahua you like 

hope you find the little one you like soon


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## Melissad (Jan 24, 2009)

I was chatting to my vet about this and she said that often dogs who do not conform to the so called breed standard are healthier because ( for example ) short almost flattened snouts often cause breathing problems. I don't think KC breed standards always make for the healthiest of animals, to be honest.


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## SillySally (Jan 2, 2009)

Melissad said:


> I was chatting to my vet about this and she said that often dogs who do not conform to the so called breed standard are healthier because ( for example ) short almost flattened snouts often cause breathing problems. I don't think KC breed standards always make for the healthiest of animals, to be honest.


Um I have to disagree with your Vet. My shihtzu is from champion bloodlines and she has a very smushed face and is going on 13yrs old and her mother was 18yrs old when she passed. My shihtzu has never had breathing problems. I have always purchased my dogs through breeders that have or show their dogs and I have gotten some of my healthiest long lived dogs.

Last time my shihtzu was at my vets he said he would have never guessed she was going on 13yrs that she looked like a 5yr old dog.


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## Melissad (Jan 24, 2009)

SillySally said:


> Um I have to disagree with your Vet. My shihtzu is from champion bloodlines and she has a very smushed face and is going on 13yrs old and her mother was 18yrs old when she passed. My shihtzu has never had breathing problems. I have always purchased my dogs through breeders that have or show their dogs and I have gotten some of my healthiest long lived dogs.
> 
> Last time my shihtzu was at my vets he said he would have never guessed she was going on 13yrs that she looked like a 5yr old dog.



Of course there will always be exceptions, but anecdotal examples don't remove the fact that flat faced animals will frequently have problems breathing.
This is an interesting link http://www.dogmagazine.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/pedigree-dogs-report-full.pdf
I think most of us here would agree that animal welfare is more important than breed standards.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

Whether or not the breed is standard and what the standard is...most of the time the show breeder's that do breed for standard are the only one's who health test so you will have more of a chance buying a healthier dog all around do to this. Knowing what is in the line and testing before breeding is key ;-)


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Melissad said:


> Of course there will always be exceptions, but anecdotal examples don't remove the fact that flat faced animals will frequently have problems breathing.
> This is an interesting link http://www.dogmagazine.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/pedigree-dogs-report-full.pdf
> I think most of us here would agree that animal welfare is more important than breed standards.


I for one would certainly agree with you and it's interesting that you too have commented on what appears to be increasingly flatter Chi faces. Ie shorter noses.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Yoshismom said:


> Whether or not the breed is standard and what the standard is...most of the time the show breeder's that do breed for standard are the only one's who health test so you will have more of a chance buying a healthier dog all around do to this. Knowing what is in the line and testing before breeding is key ;-)


As far as I am aware, breeders in the UK don't health test for anything and there is no Kennel Club guidance/schemes for the chihuahua. Not sure if breeders in other countries routinely test breeding dogs? Maybe some of the breeders on the board could comment?

The Chihuahua is not without it's very real health issues, certainly in the UK.
I would like to see (annual) health testing for heart murmur, patella luxation and research done into the incidence of epilepsy. All problems that are out there. *And it isn't just back yard breeders who are producing dogs with these conditions *

But change like this MUST come from the breeders themselves and the Breed Clubs.


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## Melissad (Jan 24, 2009)

I agree Rosiesmum. I would like to see breeding for health,
not aesthetics or breed standards. 
Somebody somewhere sits down and determines what is and what isn't a so-called `breed standard` whether it's short legs, flattened snout, docked tail, pointed ears, etc. and sometimes the breed standard needs to be modified or even altered for good.


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## SillySally (Jan 2, 2009)

We do test for that at our clinic, luxating patella you can feel the back legs and do a certain movement with them to tell wheather or not they indeed have luxating patella even at 8 weeks old and as far as heart murmurs we check for those everytime also and with a stethescope we listen for the grade level the heart mumur is if present but those are a given with a wellness puppy check at our clinic.

Now if an injury happens that causes LP later on in life then that would not be concidered genetic.

Is that something UK Vets do not do as a normal practice? Because if they show I always thought that anywhere in the world this was a must for show?


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

SillySally said:


> We do test for that at our clinic, luxating patella you can feel the back legs and do a certain movement with them to tell wheather or not they indeed have luxating patella even at 8 weeks old and as far as heart murmurs we check for those everytime also and with a stethescope we listen for the grade level the heart mumur is if present but those are a given with a wellness puppy check at our clinic.
> 
> Now if an injury happens that causes LP later on in life then that would not be concidered genetic.
> 
> Is that something UK Vets do not do as a normal practice? Because if they show I always thought that anywhere in the world this was a must for show?


Thank you for that.
If you are just talking about puppies, then most good breeders will have them checked over at vaccination time as you describe.
However just because a puppy does not present with a heart murmur, it does not mean that it will not suffer and die from mitral valve disease in later life.
Also a puppy with apparently clear patella's at 8 weeks, can still go on to develop patella luxation when older. It need not be as the result of an accident it could still very well be a genetic issue.
This was clarified to me by one of the best orthopaedic animal vets in the UK.

Jago's breeder tried to tell me his patella luxation was the result of an injury(which it wasn't). Vet said that in his *professional opinion *and on examination of the structure of leg during surgery, it was definitely genetic. 
He also stated checking puppies knees at 8 weeks was pretty meaningless.

I think it would be justified (given the health issues) for all Chis that are bred from to have a yearly health check from vet of patellas and heart.
That way people using stud dogs could choose the healthiest dog, well you would hope they would. Bitches too would hold a health certificate.
Buyers could ask to see a copy or photocopy of both. eventually given time, photocopies of grand parents and grt grand parents, would be available. 


To have any chance of working, as I said the KC would have to be involved and of course Breed Clubs. Breeders would need to be honest, as I have said, not only with each other, but themselves...

It would be interesting to have some UK breeders views on this. For without doubt, they must surely be just as keen to see the improvement in health within the breed 

Also perhaps those thinking of breeding Chihuahuas at some point.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

Wow! I didnt realize that UK breeders did not health test?

The Chihuahua breeder's that I know and the one's that I have talked to in the rings do DO health testing and we are not talking about pups are really to young for most being tested for shows up. I am talking about testing the parents, grand parents, throughout the line BEFORE breeding the dogs. Now I do know that this does not ring true for all breeders that show. So for the most part they are breeding for both structure, health and temperment.

My GD's line are all health tested and I can go on a site right now and look at OFA, eye CERF, etc... and see what the results were. I in turn will make sure my boy is health tested and passes, and that he is a finished Champion before studding him out IF I decide to stud him out ;-)


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

I would like to see some sort of testing brought in to the UK.

I asked my vet about PL testing and they said that unless there was ANY movement in the patella's they wouldn't consider putting them under to check them by x-ray. 

I have to say that when I take mine for boosters they have their heart and legs tested and ANY doubts would result in a full test.

I have only had one which I bought in years ago which developed PL at about 2 years old and she was neutered and pet homed. END OF THAT LINE FOR ME. I would rather start again than continue to breed and pass something on.

I know Barbara's jago developed it early too - poor man, he's just lucky he got a good home there!

I find that in the UK a lot of breeders hide their 
head in the sand and do not like talking about problems.

I can't see what is wrong with talking about it myself.


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## Keeffer (Feb 26, 2008)

Ah this is interesting. Here in holland we do not need to test Chi's. Some say they did testing, uhm at the VET that is. But only a specialist can give you real results.  I think dogs should be tested, but dogs with PL or overshot/undershot shouldn't always be excluded from breeding. Don't get me wrong, but the dog with the 'disease' could be the only one left from a great line. If you don't breed with this dog, than the whole line is gone. You should not throw away genes, you should spread them. For example, if you have a dog that has PL you could mate him/her to a dog without PL. I think all the diseases are caused by continuesly throwing away genes, just because those dogs were not to breed standard. In order to get back to healthy dogs, we need to breed with dogs from every line, and not only the champ dogs. That is what caused all the problems.

Anyway I think to short muzzles are sad. Most breeders are only looking for beauty, but they forget the health of the puppies. It's a shame.  Btw, the breed standards have changed. And the english bulldog should have a longer muzzle now. Thats a step in the good direction.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Keeffer said:


> Ah this is interesting. I think dogs should be tested, but dogs with PL or overshot/undershot shouldn't always be excluded from breeding. Don't get me wrong, but the dog with the 'disease' could be the only one left from a great line. If you don't breed with this dog, than the whole line is gone. You should not throw away genes, you should spread them.


Can you really look at the picture of my Jago at about ten months in this thread and tell me that dogs passing on this condition should be bred from  
Could you breed from a dog like this knowing that there is a good chance his puppies will end up undergoing complex surgery, all those awful staples and a month in a crate.

Because the thread below shows the reality of patella luxation. 

If Jago had been the last "from a great line" would any real dog lover want to "spread" these genes and suffering?

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/showthread.php?t=32787&highlight=jago


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

I don't think Marjanna means to breed from a dog with serious PL but there are grades like the hip score and I "think" that it is where the grading don't add up to more than a certain figure ie 0,1 mated to a 0,0. so they would show "very slight" PL but nothing which required surgery.

Is that right?

Obviously I am not an expert on the subject because I have never bred from one with it.


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## Keeffer (Feb 26, 2008)

Rosiesmum said:


> Can you really look at the picture of my Jago at about ten months in this thread and tell me that dogs passing on this condition should be bred from
> Could you breed from a dog like this knowing that there is a good chance his puppies will end up undergoing complex surgery, all those awful staples and a month in a crate.
> 
> Because the thread below shows the reality of patella luxation.
> ...


I've talked to specialist and here in hollland 95% of the chi's have PL. No one talks about it. You know why they have PL? Because of the intensive line breeding. Some dogs have up to 13 times the same dog in just 6 generations! I believe you shouldn't breed with those dogs, because thats just more of the same. But if you have a good dog, from a good line where almost all the dogs didn;t have PL, but that dog has it, than yes you should breed from it. PL is not due to one gene but many genes. So if you spread the genes, you have a better chance of having puppies without PL. 

And PL can be fixed by surgery. Don't get me wrong, I know all about PL surgery's. It's horrible.  But if you would only breed from dogs without PL, you loose many genes. The chance of other bad genes that pop up gets bigger. Things that cannot be fixed by surgery. 

If you can choose from a champ studdog that has no PL, but 80% of his relatives has PL, or a studdog that has PL, but only 10% of his relatives has it too. Which would you choose? And there are different grades of PL, but we don't know what genes causes the grades too. 

Let me put it this way: I'd rather have a puppy from parents that have PL1 and 10% of his relatives have PL, than a puppy from champparents and 80% of his relatives has PL 2 to 4. And I would say the same about HD etc. Al the diseases that are polygenic.

According to Prof. Meutstege you can breed from dogs that have PL 1/1, but you should mate them to PL 0/0. If dogs would be tested, they can measure the results. After a few generations you'll have some breeding values (this is litteraly translated cause I don't know the word in english ). You should stay under a certain number. Let's say it is 100, and you have a great dog, but his breeding values are about 120 (and that might be qualified as 'very bad') but he is very good in any other way, you should mate him to a female that has a breeding value of 80, so the puppies will have a breeding value of 100. Using dogs with PL 2 or more, will increase the breeding values dramaticaly, so it's not wise to use those dogs very often. And with the PL dogs we have in holland, it is not wise to use them at all.  Breeders should try to keep the breeding values as low as possible.


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## Keeffer (Feb 26, 2008)

jesshan said:


> I don't think Marjanna means to breed from a dog with serious PL but there are grades like the hip score and I "think" that it is where the grading don't add up to more than a certain figure ie 0,1 mated to a 0,0. so they would show "very slight" PL but nothing which required surgery.
> 
> Is that right?
> 
> Obviously I am not an expert on the subject because I have never bred from one with it.


Did you know that dogs that have PL 0/0 still have PL? 0/0 means they can still move the knee a little, but they can't get the kneecap outside of the groove. If they can get the kneecap outside of the groove, it is PL 1. 

PL free means that the kneecap can't be moved, so that is the best result.  But in many countries 0,0 and 'free' are the 'same'. But it is not the same of course.


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## *Chloe* (Feb 6, 2006)

sorry i am with Rosiesmum on this one i would not wish PL on any chi not even 10% for anything - im not a breeder but i have had a chi with PL and been through the 18 months of her having PL then the op and recovery with her and IMO its not worth putting that on any poor puppies (and the poor owners that have to go through the ordeal) for anything


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

you see now I though 0,0 meant they were PL free. 

I had heard that it was OK to breed from 0,0 to something which was 0,1 or something along those lines.

This is to Chloe and Barbara (as I know you will probably know more about it than I do) When your two had the problems, did they still grade them like they do in Europe or did they just say they had PL?


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## *Chloe* (Feb 6, 2006)

Twigs was graded by a specialist on referral by the vet who of course just said it was possibly PL


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

thanks Chloe, doesn't really help my quest though LOL. I was just interested if whether they grade it or just say PL.


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## *Chloe* (Feb 6, 2006)

*Chloe* said:


> Twigs was graded by a specialist on referral by the vet who of course just said it was possibly PL


LOL i said the specialist surgeon graded it! 

the vet just said PL and referred us to a specialist who then graded it and advised us of what treatment was available


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

jesshan said:


> you see now I though 0,0 meant they were PL free.
> 
> I had heard that it was OK to breed from 0,0 to something which was 0,1 or something along those lines.
> 
> This is to Chloe and Barbara (as I know you will probably know more about it than I do) When your two had the problems, did they still grade them like they do in Europe or did they just say they had PL?


They certainly graded them when Jago was diagnosed. Like Chloe, we initially saw our own vet who confirmed my fears. They didn't grade it and initially they hoped surgery could be avoided. However over the coming weeks, Jago rapidly progressed from the occasional "hop and a skip" to walking on three legs and whimpering in pain. If it was distressing for us to watch as dog lovers, how much worse must it have been for him?

Of course we took him back and rather than opt for surgery at our own excellent vet, we asked for a referral to a specialist in orthopaedics. He graded it as, if I remember rightly, the worst possible, grade 4 or 5? Sorry can't remember. Vet said there was no option but to operate.

As there is no routine testing in the UK Denise, I don't think there is any real way of knowing how many Chi's have patella luxation, but from what I hear, it's a considerable amount. I appreciate as a judge you may have your "opinions" but you cannot diagnose as you are not a vet.

I'm not sure that even if scoring was brought in, how it would compare to elbow and hip scores in other breeds? When it comes to breeding...
I also think that it will be a rare breeder (of any dog) that stands up and says that there are congenital abnormalities in their line.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Keeffer said:


> And PL can be fixed by surgery. Don't get me wrong, I know all about PL surgery's. It's horrible.


Yes it is pretty horrible, painful, frustrating, may result in arthritis in later life and further surgery... and the result of bad breeding.
It's also a tad expensive for the owner, heaven help them if they aren't insured. Jago's vet bill was almost £1000, 6 years ago, hate to think what it would cost now...thankfully he was insured. If breeders were made to be responsible for these bills (no wonder they try to pass them off as injuries ) perhaps they might give a little more thought to their breeding stance and not trivialise the condition.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Rosiesmum said:


> Of course we took him back and rather than opt for surgery at our own excellent vet, we asked for a referral to a specialist in orthopaedics. He graded it as, if I remember rightly, the worst possible, grade 4 or 5? Sorry can't remember. Vet said there was no option but to operate.
> 
> As there is no routine testing in the UK Denise, I don't think there is any real way of knowing how many Chi's have patella luxation, but from what I hear, it's a considerable amount. I appreciate as a judge you may have your "opinions" but you cannot diagnose as you are not a vet.
> 
> ...


I am trying to get my head around this - so does this mean that your Jago would be read as having 4,4 or 5,5 patellas? I know that they don't always result in operations - the one I had has never needed an operation - fingers crossed she won't need it. She is 9 now.

The vet today re-checked one of my dogs today "manually" she said that she has no movement in her legs (with the exception to the ligament within the leg.) She went to great length to show me - she even went out and brought back in a model of the kneecap LOL. It was really interesting.

I have to say though that I don't really have an opinion - I am just interesting in trying to understand PL. I do not however understand how you can claim that a considerable amount of chihuahuas in the UK have PL, do you mean from pet lines, show lines? I am genuinely interested in this subject.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

jesshan said:


> I am trying to get my head around this - so does this mean that your Jago would be read as having 4,4 or 5,5 patellas? I know that they don't always result in operations - the one I had has never needed an operation - fingers crossed she won't need it. She is 9 now.
> 
> The vet today re-checked one of my dogs today "manually" she said that she has no movement in her legs (with the exception to the ligament within the leg.) She went to great length to show me - she even went out and brought back in a model of the kneecap LOL. It was really interesting.
> 
> I have to say though that I don't really have an opinion - I am just interesting in trying to understand PL. I do not however understand how you can claim that a considerable amount of chihuahuas in the UK have PL, do you mean from pet lines, show lines? I am genuinely interested in this subject.


The grading is simply a single figure one, does that make sense? So it just a 4 or a 5.

How can I claim there are a considerable number of Chihuahuas with patella luxation? The same way I claim that there are a considerable number of Chihuahuas with heart problems. By talking with owners I meet and the owners I have spoke to online, most especially via my site. Very out of date, but people still visit 
And I mean both pet and show lines. Pet owners I think talk more frankly than those involves within the show world. Guess they have less to lose?
Perhaps years ago before internet acess a lot of issues were not common knowledge? I mean among all dog breeds, not just Chis. Now pet owners have the opportunity to talk about thier dogs and any health issues... and the people they bought them from. 

If I am honest heart issues, mitral valve disease and the ensuing heart failure, worries me even more


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Yes I understand that that the figure relates to the grade of PL, but they surely would test both legs especially when they went under. Therefore if one was OK it would read 0,4 (4 being the problematic leg) This is where the Europeans get the 0,0 etc codes.

I have to say that a lot of show breeder seem more open to discussing PL problems.

I haven't had any 1st hand knowledge on heart problems either - surely the vet would pick up on heart problems during the initial puppy check and yearly boosters?


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## Keeffer (Feb 26, 2008)

Rosiesmum said:


> Yes it is pretty horrible, painful, frustrating, may result in arthritis in later life and further surgery... and the result of bad breeding.
> It's also a tad expensive for the owner, heaven help them if they aren't insured. Jago's vet bill was almost £1000, 6 years ago, hate to think what it would cost now...thankfully he was insured. If breeders were made to be responsible for these bills (*no wonder they try to pass them off as injuries* ) perhaps they might give a little more thought to their breeding stance and not trivialise the condition.


 I know some breeders that really do that. And claim all there dogs are perfectly healthy. But if you ask if they have any real results, they don't have it?  How can you say your dog doesn't pass on PL, if you don't even know if he or she has PL? That being said, a dog that has PL 0,0 can also give puppies with PL 2 to 4, so that is still hard to tell. Only way of checking is to test the dog and measure breed values.

And I think Jago had PL 4, cause the grades only go up to 4. PL 4 is rare though, poor little man.  You can also see if a dog has PL when he stands. It isn't really hard to tell. 

May I ask to which specialist you went for the surgery? Here in Holland we have about 11/12 specialists. I don't know how many specialists there are in the UK. But I asked around (asked papillon breeders, cause chi breeders don't test, remember ), and the PL test only costs about 40/50 euros here, so its not expensive. Makes me wonder why breeders don't test their dogs. Cause going to the vet is about 30 euros, so thats not a big difference. Or does it really need to be compulsory, before they're going to test the dogs? Can't be that the specialists are too fa away from their homes, cause we have specialist in almost every region. Really makes me wonder.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

jesshan said:


> Yes I understand that that the figure relates to the grade of PL, but they surely would test both legs. Therefore if one was OK it would read 0,4 (4 being the problematic leg)
> I have to say that a lot of show breeder seem more open to discussing PL problems.
> 
> I haven't had any 1st hand knowledge on heart problems either - surely the vet would pick up on heart problems during the initial puppy check and yearly boosters?


They grade each leg individually yes, does that make sense to you? As I tried to explain...I am not sure how patella luxation scores equate to elbow or hip scores. From what I remember, vet said a Chi could have a hereditary problem in one knee, but not other. So...if one knee was luxating, it could still pass condition on. 
It's academic anyway as in the UK Chihuahua breeders do not routinely score their breeding dogs and no records are kept  

I have already said that puppy checks do not reveal whether or not a Chi will develop mitral valve disease. Of course yearly checks (if performed) would pick up a heart problem, but again breeders make no record of this available to buyers. And again, no breeder is going to acknowledge a fault in their dogs are they. And when nothing is made public, there is no health screening recommendations from breed or kennel club, all breeders will claim they have no health issues within their kennel?
But while they sell to pet homes, and people discuss their experiences, that might not always "add up"...


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

well I for one would do testing if they were more available.

Saying that, how many people go to a breeder of say labs and buy one because they have been hip scored. People just can't wait to get a puppy and will always buy one whether it has been tested not. 

Can I ask when you bought Jago if you asked if there where any hereditary faults in the lines? Im not saying they would have told the truth of course ;


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

jesshan said:


> well I for one would do testing if they were more available.
> 
> Saying that, how many people go to a breeder of say labs and buy one because they have been hip scored. People just can't wait to get a puppy and will always buy one whether it has been tested not.
> 
> Can I ask when you bought Jago if you asked if there where any hereditary faults in the lines? Im not saying they would have told the truth of course ;


It's good to hear that you would be open to testing of your dogs 
Maybe it is something as an established breeder and judge you could put forward to your Breed Club? It has to start with someone and things will only change when breeders want it o 

I asked about health issues when I bought all my dogs as I had researched the breed. There is a lot of Chihuahua information out there on the internet when it comes to health issues. However as I have said, I don't believe any breeder of any dog (and I generalise) is going to say "By the way a puppy from the last litter has just had a patella repair." Or, "My Chihuahuas never make it past 10 without developing mitral valve disease." 

Denise said ~ "Saying that, how many people go to a breeder of say labs and buy one because they have been hip scored. People just can't wait to get a puppy and will always buy one whether it has been tested not. "

As for pet owners not being concerned about hip scores in Labs, not all pet owners are idiots or uneducated about this issue. While there will always be the impulse buyer, there are people (like myself) who want a healthy happy pet and will ask about health. Again it's surely up to breeders and Breed Clubs to promote good breeding practise and education? 

To be honest, I'm not sure of the relevance of the comment highlighted above, that you make?
It's a bit like saying ~ Why test when "would be" pet owners are never going to ask about results. Or that is how it reads


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## *Princess* (Feb 7, 2009)

Elise has a flat face cimpared to the chi's ive seen on here but she seems to wheeze at night anyway so its not a shock she got breathing problems.

Does anyone know why the flat face causes problems?


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

*Princess* said:


> Elise has a flat face cimpared to the chi's ive seen on here but she seems to wheeze at night anyway so its not a shock she got breathing problems.
> 
> Does anyone know why the flat face causes problems?


Dogs with shorter noses and flatter faces are more likely to have narrowed airways, elongated palette and narrow nostrils. This can cause them to snore, snuffle and if severe (as in bull dogs for extreme example) lead to very real breathing problems.

Love the name Elsie by the way


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## *Princess* (Feb 7, 2009)

thank you for answering my questions..much appreciated

her dad named her after one of hes cars  lol


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

*Princess* said:


> thank you for answering my questions..much appreciated


You are very welcome


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