# London- new pics!!!



## mommasboy

Omg just got new pics from the breeder taken tonight. He's sooooo tiny!!! He's 13.5 weeks old and only weighs 1lb!!!! These pics were taken tonight with some things I sent to him:



















This amazes me.....this is one of those TINY dingo chew treats.....the package is maybe 3 inches long!!!!! Look how big the treat looks!!!!!









Last one.....this is a small dog toy......wow, he's sooooo small. I cannot wait to meet him!









Ok, so give me your thoughts/opinions!!!!!


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## mommasboy

Any thoughts!!???


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## pastel

awww cute!!! I'm a total sucker for black though.


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## jesuschick

He is darling! I like black, too! 
I'd be certain never to feed him rawhide. Bad for all dogs and with your guy being so small you'll have to be extra careful with things. You would not want anything that could block his tiny digestive tract.


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## ~LS~

Does this breeder purposely breed for such tiny Chis?
Do you know a lot about this breeder? Do they have good intentions?


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## tulula's mum

Very cute pup


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## Brodysmom

Just a thought.... not trying to be debbie downer here.... but if I was buying a very tiny pup like him from a breeder in another state, I'd want to make sure he was healthy and not small because he has a problem. You can ask her to take him in for a bile acid test, and that would tell you the state of his liver. Many tinies are tiny... because they have a liver shunt. How heartbreaking it would be to find this out after you get him home with you. A bile acid test is a simple blood test, runs about $100 or less. It would be worth it for peace of mind in my opinion. 

Many, many yorkie people have this test run routinely on their tinies. Many reputable yorkie breeders do a bile acid test as a matter of routine on their puppies because it is so common in their breed. It's not quite as common in Chi's, but you can't help but wonder when you have one that is so small. And didn't the breeder say he wasn't a very good eater? If so, that could also hint at a possible liver problem. 

I'd rather be safe than sorry. If all comes back good, then excellent!!! If not, at least you have saved yourself thousands of dollars in vet bills, plus a lot of grief.


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## kayler00

Oh my goodness! Will he get any bigger? I'd be afraid I'd break him! =( But he's so cute! I love black dogs!


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## nabi

He is adorable...so tiny...love his coloring....


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## Kurukulla

Brodysmom said:


> Just a thought.... not trying to be debbie downer here.... but if I was buying a very tiny pup like him from a breeder in another state, I'd want to make sure he was healthy and not small because he has a problem. You can ask her to take him in for a bile acid test, and that would tell you the state of his liver. Many tinies are tiny... because they have a liver shunt. How heartbreaking it would be to find this out after you get him home with you. A bile acid test is a simple blood test, runs about $100 or less. It would be worth it for peace of mind in my opinion.
> 
> Many, many yorkie people have this test run routinely on their tinies. Many reputable yorkie breeders do a bile acid test as a matter of routine on their puppies because it is so common in their breed. It's not quite as common in Chi's, but you can't help but wonder when you have one that is so small. And didn't the breeder say he wasn't a very good eater? If so, that could also hint at a possible liver problem.
> 
> I'd rather be safe than sorry. If all comes back good, then excellent!!! If not, at least you have saved yourself thousands of dollars in vet bills, plus a lot of grief.


I agree.
I would want him to see a vet of your choice not only for what Tracy said but also because his back is very very roached (curved..) which could be a spinal deformity. He also looks overshot in the pic which is ok for a pet but not good it can cause problems with eating etc and obv if he is going to be small you do not want any problems with him eating due to hypoglycaemia. He looks younger than 13 weeks.


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## pastel

13 weeks is a pretty long time. maybe the breeder shows dogs, but this one was too tiny *shrug*


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## *Fiona*

Aww he is a cutie


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## quinnandleah

He is a cutie. Is she sure about his age? He looks a bit younger. Eva is almost 9 weeks and is 1 lb 15 oz.


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## mommasboy

Here's a couple more pics of London and his back doesn't look curved:



















His birthday is 11/18/2011 so that makes him 14 weeks and 1 day old. The rest of the litter is bigger but he was the runt and stayed small. She says he is a great eater just doesn't care for kibble and is very healthy so far. She does have a lot of small chis like 3-4 lbs but he is just a tiny little thing.


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## mommasboy

pastel said:


> 13 weeks is a pretty long time. maybe the breeder shows dogs, but this one was too tiny *shrug*


She breeds and has a lot of puppies for sale. He was the runt of the litter and just stayed very tiny. She doesn't let her puppies go til 12 weeks but she's not letting him go for a few more weeks cause of his size. I do respect her for that. She seems to take good care of her puppies.


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## mommasboy

kayler00 said:


> Oh my goodness! Will he get any bigger? I'd be afraid I'd break him! =( But he's so cute! I love black dogs!


He will only be 2-2.5 lbs full grown.


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## cherper

I agree with the bile acid test. I sure wouldn't want you to get him home and fall inlove and then find out he has problems. 
He is very very cute!!


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## mommasboy

He is a very playful pup that eats well. Other than being small he shows no signs of liver shunt. Wouldn't he be lethargic? Or show other signs?


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## cherper

I don't know but that seems abnormally small to me for that age. I suppose I would do some reading about it.


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## Sparkles Mom

Good luck!He is a cute tiny Lad! I would shy away from walgreen stuffiees and opt for drs smith and foster and lean towards nylabones and bully sticks while monitored. Good Luck!


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## Kurukulla

mommasboy said:


> Here's a couple more pics of London and his back doesn't look curved:
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> His birthday is 11/18/2011 so that makes him 14 weeks and 1 day old. The rest of the litter is bigger but he was the runt and stayed small. She says he is a great eater just doesn't care for kibble and is very healthy so far. She does have a lot of small chis like 3-4 lbs but he is just a tiny little thing.



He is sitting down (on a hand) it won't show his roach. I assure you his back is roached. The first few pics you posted show them at an angle if he was side on it would be even worse. His mouth is v overshot an will only get worse as he gets older.

Feeding chicken and rice to a growing puppy is bad he will not be getting the nutrients he needs to grow and develop.

You obviously have your heart set on this puppy but personally if I was getting a pet and he was smaller and not looking so great in pics (I get the impression you haven't met him so remember you are only hearing what this breeder wants you to) I would want him properly check out before I part with my money. You said he is very expensive!!!!! I would of walked away not meaning to be nasty but he has a few structural problems and a bad bite... I'd expect him to be cheaper if anything sounds like the breeder is charging you because he is small (he may not end up small- one of my girls litter mates was tiny tiny and at 10 months now is bigger in size and weight than her sister) and appears to be playing on the fact that you really want a tiny. 

Roached backs can cause issues with moving, playing etc it's a problem with their spine. If you look his back end is way lower than the middle
Of his back. Chihuahuas have level topline meaning it is dead straight from bottom of neck to base of tail. 

We just want to make you aware that you may not be getting what you want it's all very good for people to say aw cute puppy but really ALL Puppies are cute but it doesn't tell you what people see who don't have puppy blindness (we all get it when we find a puppy I know I do) and I think Tracy and I have been pretty honest. If you get him just please prepare yourself that he could have internal problems which can cause early death and he DOES have mouth and spine problems already. You need to be aware he could end up costing you a lot of expense and heart ache.


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## mommasboy

Thanks for all your concerns. I have emailed the breeder about these things and awaiting a response.


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## Mel's chi's

Hey Kimberly! I'm late arriving on this thread 
The puppy is of course a cute little guy! I am sorry that so many concerns have arisen, but am glad you are addressing them since he is so far away ( & being a different country, maybe more difficult to get information you need--idk)
That said, how did you come to find a pup from London? Someone you know?
Hugs for you, I know all these questions about the puppy & just getting a puppy at all can be exciting anxiety ( plus your trip! ) Hang tight!


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## woodard2009

He is sooo cute. Reading all these post, makes me very sad for this little baby & you, but if it were me--I would want to be saved from any heart-ache. Just know that this forum speaks out of love & first-hand knowledge & in no way is trying to hurt your feelings. I say thank you for this as I am so tired of seeing so much heart ache in this forum! Way to go guys!!


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## Brodysmom

You might have her send you a pic of his mouth with his lips pulled back. He almost has a 'parrot mouth' which is where the front jaw goes out much much farther than the lower jaw. It looks like the gap could be 1/2 an inch of more. This is a pretty serious overbite and other than his tongue hanging out, could cause a lot of problems with eating. He may end up with NO teeth as his muzzle is so small and narrow that the teeth can't fit or have no roots. If he ends up with no teeth, that will require some special care. That may explain why he's not doing well with kibble. (He should be on softened foods anyway.) 

Just trying to help!!


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## mommasboy

Mel's chi's said:


> Hey Kimberly! I'm late arriving on this thread
> The puppy is of course a cute little guy! I am sorry that so many concerns have arisen, but am glad you are addressing them since he is so far away ( & being a different country, maybe more difficult to get information you need--idk)
> That said, how did you come to find a pup from London? Someone you know?
> Hugs for you, I know all these questions about the puppy & just getting a puppy at all can be exciting anxiety ( plus your trip! ) Hang tight!


Lol thanks. His name is London....he's not FROM London....lol.


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## mommasboy

Brodysmom said:


> You might have her send you a pic of his mouth with his lips pulled back. He almost has a 'parrot mouth' which is where the front jaw goes out much much farther than the lower jaw. It looks like the gap could be 1/2 an inch of more. This is a pretty serious overbite and other than his tongue hanging out, could cause a lot of problems with eating. He may end up with NO teeth as his muzzle is so small and narrow that the teeth can't fit or have no roots. If he ends up with no teeth, that will require some special care. That may explain why he's not doing well with kibble. (He should be on softened foods anyway.)
> 
> Just trying to help!!


Thanks I appreciate all the help. The breeder has been honest and up front with me since day 1. She told me that he does have an overbite but it doesn't interfere with his eating at all. I never said he doesn't eat good.....he just doesn't like kibble. She said he eats canned dog food and real chicken. I will probably just keep him on canned food. I think that's why he won't eat kibble cause its harder to eat and even the smallest kibble is big for him. I do understand everyone's concern and I appreciate all the help. I am getting him. Whatever we face, we will face it together and I will take care of him. He has a 1 yr warranty on genetic and hereditary issues. I also have a vet appt scheduled for the day after he arrives. I feel confident that I can handle a teeny and have the lifestyle that would allow me to properly care for his needs. Thanks again for all the help.


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## jesuschick

I'd also PM Quigley's mom. Quigley is a bitty boy and she can compare weights with you (when he was that age, etc.) and let you know about the challenges (he is incontinent, for instance, and must have towels under him at all times) so that you will be nicely and adequately prepared. 

Here is her profile:
Chihuahua Forum : Chihuahua Breed Dog Forums - View Profile: QUIGLEY'S MOM

Perhaps even search some of her posts if you are not comfortable contacting her directly. Her name is Trieste and she is positively a sweetheart. 

All the best!


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## cherper

jesuschick said:


> I'd also PM Quigley's mom. Quigley is a bitty boy and she can compare weights with you (when he was that age, etc.) and let you know about the challenges (he is incontinent, for instance, and must have towels under him at all times) so that you will be nicely and adequately prepared.
> 
> Here is her profile:
> Chihuahua Forum : Chihuahua Breed Dog Forums - View Profile: QUIGLEY'S MOM
> 
> Perhaps even search some of her posts if you are not comfortable contacting her directly. Her name is Trieste and she is positively a sweetheart.
> 
> All the best!


I second that about Trieste!!! We have spoken on the phone several times as she was helping me with a pattern. Such a sweet lady!! 
Since you have your mind set on this puppy, I surely hope all goes well for you. Health guarantees are all well and good if the breeder will not renig on it. But, the biggest problem is once you've got the puppy and lets say he's got a serious health problem are you really going to give it back and wait on another one of that breeders pups!? I seriously doubt anyone could do that.


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## cherper

Also want to add, how awesome some of our members are here. Having some with such a good eye and can spot things that alot of us wouldn't, is so helpful!!!


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## Mel's chi's

jesuschick said:


> I'd also PM Quigley's mom. Quigley is a bitty boy and she can compare weights with you (when he was that age, etc.) and let you know about the challenges (he is incontinent, for instance, and must have towels under him at all times) so that you will be nicely and adequately prepared.
> 
> Here is her profile:
> Chihuahua Forum : Chihuahua Breed Dog Forums - View Profile: QUIGLEY'S MOM
> 
> Perhaps even search some of her posts if you are not comfortable contacting her directly. Her name is Trieste and she is positively a sweetheart.
> 
> All the best!


I was wondering if she was still around. I PMed her about an incontinence issue but never heard back


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## Mel's chi's

mommasboy said:


> Lol thanks. His name is London....he's not FROM London....lol.



Duh! I can be a living blonde joke sometimes!


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## Jazmin

He is sooo cute!!!


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## rubia

There are some problems that are just small problems and then there are major medical issues...Some tinies grow...I know a breeder who has a tiny and he was very slow to grow...but once he did his muscle tone and overall health are great--he is still small. I have a chi with faults. He was small in the litter but grew to nornaml size, this wee one could grow too. His things are just imperfections . It does sound as if the breeder wants you to have a healthy pup.. I hope it all works out.. so his colourimg...is he a dark sable ?? very pretty....


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## Reese and Miley

Just wanted to chime in with a word of caution about breeder "health guarantees". Often they will require that you RETURN the puppy to them, at your expense, and will offer you a new dog. Definitely not what you will want once you have him and have bonded. Don't expect that his breeder will just cover all the expenses if he turns out to have a problem. He is very cute and I don't blame you for moving ahead, but you really REALLY should find out for sure that he is completely healthy BEFORE YOU GET HIM. Be prepared, know what you are dealing with ahead of time. Don't wait til he is home to find out about issues. As others have already suggested, special tests are in order for pups that little. Ask the breeder to have them done, then ask to speak DIRECTLY with the vet who examines him and runs the tests. That way, you know what the two of you may be in for when he gets home. Even better, everything may turn up clear and youll have peace of mind that your little guy is completely healthy. Pups that small can get sick quickly, it is in his best interest that any underlying health issues be discovered or ruled out ASAP.
Also, he may "not like kibble" because he can't eat it. I wouldnt assume its just a preference, thats definitely a very little lower jaw. Canned would certainly work for him, or my guys eat a pre made raw food called Stella and Chewys that is soft and could easily be eaten by a dog with no teeth or other eating challenges.
Hes very cute, and I dont blame you for going ahead with him. He may have only very minor issues- all tinies come with challenges anyway, but get all the facts so you are well prepared to care for the little guy when he gets to come home!


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## OzChi

I just want to second what Cheryl said about the members here willing to share their wealth of knowledge with others. In the end you're going to do what you're going to do with this pup but I think everyone who has read this thread has learnt some valuable things about selecting a puppy that they can hopefully use themselves or pass on to someone else.


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## rubia

mommasboy said:


> Any thoughts!!???


Love the pictures !!


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## Bandit

He is a cutie. I've read through the posts and I have no idea about the health issues. I was just saying to my parents the other day that I am glad that Bandit it bigger, more solid. 

To me it sounds like you already love him. I will just say congratulations, and it will be a good day when you get him home.


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## Wicked Pixie

Personally, I wouldn't be paying a lot of money for a puppy that has known issues. We chose to buy Bambi as a puppy from a breeder, and she is perfect, everything we hoped for in both health and temperament. Harley was a re-home, he had 2 homes after leaving his breeder before he came to us. So we don't know much about his background/breeding but we were willing to take a chance on him. 
If you are happy to have a dog with issues, maybe you should consider rescuing or re-homing one? The main advantage of buying from a breeder is that you get exactly the pup you want, no nasty (and ultimately expensive) surprises.
Just my opinion, I wish you luck whatever you decide.


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## Christabelle

When he is old enough, is there anyway for you to actually 
go and pick him up ?

Shipping a pet via airline can be such a horrible experience
to begin with, but with his size and all the potential problems
it just seems especially not safe.


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## jesuschick

Christa, I think she said she is on the east coast and the breeder on the west.

Eden was fairly small when we got her. The breeder was in our state but did not know that that my first email simply asking if she was still available. 

She indicated that she was available then immediately told me that she would NOT ship her under any circumstance. She was less than 3 pounds and was 8 months but had struggled with sugar issues as she was unable to gain past 2 pounds. 

I'd not ship a dog under 3 pounds myself. That said, I am a bad one to ask as I would not buy a dog without meeting the dog and seeing the breeder's home and set up. Consider me a control freak.


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## cherper

I second the idea that said breeder should NOT be charging a premium for a puppy that is not perfect. Really, that is just plain wrong!


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## jesuschick

cherper said:


> I second the idea that said breeder should NOT be charging a premium for a puppy that is not perfect. Really, that is just plain wrong!


I missed that he was a premium price. Surely the breeder is selling him with Limited AKC registration rather than full.


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## cherper

Its in this thread
http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chi-chat/66539-new-possible-puppy-opinions.html


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## LostLakeLua

I just read this through... phew.. and no doubt he is frickin' adorable! But I too would have to err on the side of caution with others here. Heard so many heartbreaking stories... for his growth to be that small; my first question would be the breeder's practices.
Health Guarantees don't mean much sadly... it doesn't guarantee the HEALTH so much as the price; where she might end up reimbursing you when, if, things go downhill. The best guarantee is to make sure that both puppy's parents have been health TESTED. This means GENETIC testing. I know in Chinese Cresteds the big ones you want to see a breeder do are PRA, OFA and PLL but maybe one of those involved in the show world here can chime in on the ones that are expected in Chihuahuas? That would be my first question to ask them. And also, have both parents been shown? Some backyard breeders are the NICEST people in the world but that doesn't always make them responsible ones. They can take amazing care of the dogs they have; but it doesn't mean the pets they have are genetically sound, or to standard, and should be bred. The overhall health and preservation of the breed in a whole should really be in mind; which is why Conformation and such was made, to truly evaluate them to make sure they were staying to standard AND avoiding the health problems that many BYB'ers face. Not that I'm saying she is one; like I said I have no idea, maybe she does do these tests and he truly is just a runt. But if I were you I'd want to ask those questions beforehand. Do let us know how she responds to you; if all she does is re-iterate the 'health guarantee' that's a huge red flag IMO.


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## Tiny

JESUS! what a CUTIE! aaaaaaaaa!!!!! congrats new mommie!


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## Brodysmom

KittynKahlua said:


> The best guarantee is to make sure that both puppy's parents have been health TESTED. This means GENETIC testing. I know in Chinese Cresteds the big ones you want to see a breeder do are PRA, OFA and PLL but maybe one of those involved in the show world here can chime in on the ones that are expected in Chihuahuas?


Great question Kat. The Chihuahua Club of America recommends these health tests on all breeding dogs ...

*OFA Cardiac, OFA Patella and CERF eye testing *

Health Testing Misconceptions

A reputable breeder WILL BE DOING THESE TESTS. Just going to the vet and saying the vet has checked the dogs and they are 'healthy' is NOT enough.


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## cherper

My breeder does all of those tests. It should be standard! I hope your breeder is doing those mamasboy.


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## mommasboy

rubia said:


> There are some problems that are just small problems and then there are major medical issues...Some tinies grow...I know a breeder who has a tiny and he was very slow to grow...but once he did his muscle tone and overall health are great--he is still small. I have a chi with faults. He was small in the litter but grew to nornaml size, this wee one could grow too. His things are just imperfections . It does sound as if the breeder wants you to have a healthy pup.. I hope it all works out.. so his colourimg...is he a dark sable ?? very pretty....


He is black and tan.


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