# Frequency of knee problems



## debrawade10 (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm alarmed at the amount of knee issues that everyone has with their Chi's.
Is there an age that they are diagnosed more often?
What is the approximate % of dogs that get this?
Is there anyway to prevent this, ex. activity, weight, etc.?

I was very interested in showing agility, is that an issue for knees?

Thanks, Debby


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

I do agility with Kerri. Personally I think doing an activity like agility (in a safe, well trained way) is good for the dogs overall fitness and their joints in general. Go for the agility and adjust if it is bothering the dog is my opinion on that. But also a lot of it is genetic.

The best way to avoid LP is to feed a good diet, particularly while your dog is developing, keep your dog lean and make sure that your dog gets plenty of age appropriate exercise. But if your dogs genetics give it bad LP there is nothing you can do. I don't think it is any more frequent in chis then oh say, HD in shepherds or something like that. All breeds have their own issues. I have two chis and both are rescues that are of unknown genetics. Nova has mild LP, Kerri has great knees (she is the agility competitor). Getting a dog from a good breeder that does solid health testing and has proof of long lines without bad knees can help you avoid it too, but nothing is a guarantee.

As to when they are diagnosed it seems most who will have issues show them by young adulthood. Vets can feel for the stability of the knees even before symptoms show up as well.


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

Also I wanted to add that you do see a lot of threads about knee problems on here- but we all come here for support and suggestions when we have issues. I bet overall it is actually a small fraction of the chi people chis that have knee issues. The dogs without knee issues are just not posting threads like "Newsflash- we have great knees!" very often  If they did it would seem a lot more balanced.


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## debrawade10 (Oct 10, 2013)

doginthedesert said:


> Also I wanted to add that you do see a lot of threads about knee problems on here- but we all come here for support and suggestions when we have issues. I bet overall it is actually a small fraction of the chi people chis that have knee issues. The dogs without knee issues are just not posting threads like "Newsflash- we have great knees!" very often  If they did it would seem a lot more balanced.


Thanks so much, that all makes perfect sense! Your right, I'm seeing requests for help. 
Each breed is susceptible to something. 
In your experience with agility, is it recommended that they be a certain age before attempting jumps?


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

It is something for which the breed is notorious. It is not just something that occurs or develops as they age. You will see Chi's here diagnosed as puppies and others as they were a bit older. Many will get the diagnosis and tell of noticing symptoms much earlier/younger.

Given the propensity, we got stairs built for sofas and beds. The girls are super active (wild!) but we discourage jumping off of beds and other high furniture (not that they cannot, it is that they should not).

Hope regularly sees a specialty Vet and we took each of the girls in for a full physical which included detail examination of patellas. We are fortunate, at this point, that all have nice, tight patellas.

This is one area where breeding can come into play. Backyard breeders who breed without exams to ensure that this (and other issues) is not a passed trait is a problem. Sure their dogs may be cute, but I want a sound dog who has a dam and a sire who were health checked as appropriate for breeding. 

She certainly can do rally or agilty. Just be certain to get her health checked by someone with experience with dogs who participate in such.


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

debrawade10 said:


> In your experience with agility, is it recommended that they be a certain age before attempting jumps?


The general rule that most reputable trainers follow is no jumps above knee height until 1 year, no weaves until 1 year and no full height contacts until one year. For a chi that basically means you leave the bar on the ground between the jump until one year, but you will not be jumping that high anyway, probably 4" or 8" depending on your dogs height. I do start puppies with a foundations agility class for puppies under a year and we learn a lot but it is mostly ground work and handling work. There is a lot more to it than jumps at height so if you want to get serious find a puppy class! Also a good trainer will be able to look at your dogs gait and see if you are starting to have issues or if the dog is uncomfortable. Try to find a trainer that really cares about their dogs more than winning, and has a lot of experience actually trialing.

Also the dogs do learn how to jump properly, so taking an agility jump is not like just jumping around the house. Kerri really tucks her legs and takes of with a purpose, and we work on landing correctly, so while you might not want a dog to jump off a bed they could take an agility jump just fine. Agility is much harder on a dogs front end than their back end, so that is something to consider too. I would be much more hesitant if I had a breed prone to elbow problems than with chis- that are prone to knee problems.


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## debrawade10 (Oct 10, 2013)

jesuschick said:


> It is something for which the breed is notorious. It is not just something that occurs or develops as they age. You will see Chi's here diagnosed as puppies and others as they were a bit older. Many will get the diagnosis and tell of noticing symptoms much earlier/younger.
> 
> Given the propensity, we got stairs built for sofas and beds. The girls are super active (wild!) but we discourage jumping off of beds and other high furniture (not that they cannot, it is that they should not).
> 
> ...


All this information helps so much, thanks. I know that there was health testing, my vet has checked her...but I need to become better educated in these areas. 
I also have stairs, my two Mexican Frenchies also are susceptible to back problems. They are also crazy in the way they all three play, basically all day. There is no regard to jumping outside or inside, even with stairs. I will just keep my fingers crossed!


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## debrawade10 (Oct 10, 2013)

doginthedesert said:


> The general rule that most reputable trainers follow is no jumps above knee height until 1 year, no weaves until 1 year and no full height contacts until one year. For a chi that basically means you leave the bar on the ground between the jump until one year, but you will not be jumping that high anyway, probably 4" or 8" depending on your dogs height. I do start puppies with a foundations agility class for puppies under a year and we learn a lot but it is mostly ground work and handling work. There is a lot more to it than jumps at height so if you want to get serious find a puppy class! Also a good trainer will be able to look at your dogs gait and see if you are starting to have issues or if the dog is uncomfortable. Try to find a trainer that really cares about their dogs more than winning, and has a lot of experience actually trialing.
> 
> Also the dogs do learn how to jump properly, so taking an agility jump is not like just jumping around the house. Kerri really tucks her legs and takes of with a purpose, and we work on landing correctly, so while you might not want a dog to jump off a bed they could take an agility jump just fine. Agility is much harder on a dogs front end than their back end, so that is something to consider too. I would be much more hesitant if I had a breed prone to elbow problems than with chis- that are prone to knee problems.


Love all this! I have numbers to call tomorrow to see, I found two AKC training programs fairly close. I DEFINATELY believe in learning the right way to do things the first time around!


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## AnnHelen (Nov 29, 2010)

As a puppy I didn*t see it on Baby, it became more and more noticable as he got older. His father had it, and the breeder was just thinking of the money and not what she was passing on. He is super active and wild..and dosen*t seem to be in pain. It just looks a bit...hmmm, what*s the word...misplaced, the joints hehe.. I have pet stairs for him down our bed and sofa...so he dosen*t get pressure on the legs. I don*t think you have anything to worry about with your girl, she looks very well built..but yes, it is sadly VERY common in the breed  makes me sick  and tired... Thanks for the good read everyone, love all the answears you got


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## Jayda (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree with all that has been said about exercise and keeping your dog lean. All three of mine came from what I consider a good breeder. Even with health checks the vet told me Lady has a grade 1 LP on the back right (other three appear fine). Prince and Sapphire are both good in all four knees as of almost 1.5 years and a little over four years. My vet also said that since Lady is 5 and shows no symptoms it is likely to never be a problem for her. I think the concern is when it develops to a high degree at a young age.


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## susan davis (Mar 25, 2011)

I got Bonnie from a very good kennel in Oregon. Breeder was highly recommended by a person in Indiana. I think this lady is nuts. I paid her and from then on in, she has ignored any and all questions/statement about Bonnie. I think that this was an unexpected litter, and they were never registered. I don't know her birthdate, even after asking for a year! I did get a pedigree, but no litter registration, nor birth date is on the pedigree! Now it seems as if she may have bad knees. All of my chi's (5) have had to have their knees done, except for the rescue. I give up on all highly pedigreed pups! I have had pet shop pups, back yard breeders, and excedingly "excellent" breeders. Oh well, I love all of them.


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## debrawade10 (Oct 10, 2013)

susan davis said:


> I got Bonnie from a very good kennel in Oregon. Breeder was highly recommended by a person in Indiana. I think this lady is nuts. I paid her and from then on in, she has ignored any and all questions/statement about Bonnie. I think that this was an unexpected litter, and they were never registered. I don't know her birthdate, even after asking for a year! I did get a pedigree, but no litter registration, nor birth date is on the pedigree! Now it seems as if she may have bad knees. All of my chi's (5) have had to have their knees done, except for the rescue. I give up on all highly pedigreed pups! I have had pet shop pups, back yard breeders, and excedingly "excellent" breeders. Oh well, I love all of them.


What a story Susan, so sorry you're going through it again.. It sounds like it must be fairly commen, that's why I was concerned if I show her in rally, agility. She loves to jump anything and anywhere!


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

I wanted to add that as far as rally- there is not a lot of impact with that, it would be fun to at least take beginner classes with any dog of any physical ability. A lot of seniors were in my Rally 1 class, they just took it easy and never trialed. I am considering starting Nova in Rally when she is up for it and she has mild LP, it is not a particularly trying sport physically.


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## AnnHelen (Nov 29, 2010)

Again, loving the answers


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## debrawade10 (Oct 10, 2013)

doginthedesert said:


> I wanted to add that as far as rally- there is not a lot of impact with that, it would be fun to at least take beginner classes with any dog of any physical ability. A lot of seniors were in my Rally 1 class, they just took it easy and never trialed. I am considering starting Nova in Rally when she is up for it and she has mild LP, it is not a particularly trying sport physically.


I love all of your helpful info, I so appreciate it! 
Another question, I saw some info on rally & obedience vs confirmation. It was confusing, does the judge still inspect the dog in those classes? If so, is stacking how the dog should be presented. 
This is similar to presenting horses when I showed Saddlebreds and Morgans.


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