# Is the domestic dog a pack animal?



## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

The theories of dominance/submission and a social structure based on an Alpha to Omega hierarchy, such as those seen in wolf packs, are being disputed these days as a way to understand and interpret the behaviour of our pet dogs.
Here are some links that explain how domestic dogs differ from their wolf ancestors, and how we can use this new information to train our dogs in a totally different way.
I have loads of info on this, so if anyone wants a more scientific read, PM me and I can send you more articles.

Is the domestic dog a true pack animal?

No Such Thing as Alpha Dogs

The Social Organizatin of the Domestic Dog

http://www.animalsandsociety.com/assets/library/205_s15327604jaws07047.pdf






Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan

Are Dogs Pack Animals? |


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## susan davis (Mar 25, 2011)

I have 4 dogs (a sheltie, and 3 chi's). The sheltie acts as if she is in charge. She never bites, but does growl at the chi's when they get 'in her way'! If she wants to sniff them, they pretty well freeze. Then it's over. They are separated when we leave for safety. Never had a problem. But 32 pounds vs 4,6 &8 pounds are much less, so we gate off the kitchen. I used to think there was a 'pack' system, but the only thing I've observed as a 'pack' is when one cries out in pain etc. They ALL rush over to see what's wrong. I'm not sure they have concern in their hearts, or whether it is something else more sinister!


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

Wicked Pixie thank you so much for this post it was amazing. And something I unfortunately had to find out the hard way and will NEVER EVER do with another dog I may get in the future.

Cooper being such a naturally submissive dog did not react well to this type of 'humans must be alpha' training. Us humans being dominant by forcing him to eat after us, forcing him to sleep away from us, making sure we walk ahead of him, scaring him to death when hes been naughty by ignoring him etc. I made a post about me realizing that what I was doing was bad and it was a hard thing to realize when all we hear is 'be alpha' 'show him your boss' 'don't let him be the leader'. Basically I had to come to the conclusion based on what I was seeing with my own eyes and not the hundreds of articles that I thought was gospel.

In a way it has taught me to rely on what feels right and don't do something just because everyone else is telling you it should be done that way when you feel its wrong.

Like my very smart mother said: Dogs evolved from wolves yes but the pets in our homes have spent hundreds of thousands of years along humans and in that time have evolved further to better understand us and modify their behaviors accordingly. They are mans best friend for a very good reason.

A perfect example is when people say dogs can only speak dog, they don't understand human.
Which in language not so much, but Cooper 100% understands 'human'. And I can bet any money everyones chis here know when we are happy, sad, angry, in pain etc. Even though we show all of those emotions differently to dogs, they can still totally understand us. Cooper even asks for 'play' and 'food' in ways that certainly aren't 'dog' but he knows will get us to play/feed etc - therefor they speak human as much as we speak dog  

Cooper is now a much happier much less fearful dog since I ignored the alpha dominance style training.


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## I<3Charlie-chi (Feb 25, 2011)

Thank you for the interesting post! This is something I'm really interested in and have read lots of different things about pack leadership and dominance. 
I'm actually having trouble with bailey lately and have done on and off since just after I got him nearly 3years ago. I've had help from a behaviourist and done lots of research on training etc but we still have issues.
I dont know if it's possible that bailey just doesn't like Charlie or if there is more to it like bailey wanting to be top dog. 
I wish I knew the answer because some days I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle!


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## IwillcallhimGeorge (May 29, 2013)

I am a believer in the dominance theory. That will never change. However, I'm interested to know what training methods are offered along with these debunking articles and theories. I don't care to debate the subject. I just want to know what training methods go along with this.


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## LadyDevlyn (Jul 8, 2013)

Regardless of whether dogs are "pack" animals or not, they do have a social hierarchy. All animals that live or work together in groups develop social hierarchies, even people. Someone will always come out as the leader. Now we can compromise and share responsibilities because we have a higher reasoning ability than other animals. Dogs are more comfortable and less stressed when they know their owner is the leader and they don't have to make or enforce the rules. However, I don't think the "dominance" type training is very effective because it undermines a dog's trust in their human. They have to trust you to want to follow your lead. A dog who trusts you will go out of their way to try and please you. 


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## NinaN (May 13, 2013)

@LadyDevlyn
I think I've never heard it said better. I like to think that I'm my dog's guide. The enviroment we live in can be confusing and prety dangerous for a dog. I make rules to keep us both safe and not a nuisance to others. To do this I don't need to physically dominate my dog or scare her. She loves to make me happy and the slightest disapproval in my voice will stop her.
@Becku
Your mom is indeed a wise woman. Dogs are living with us for about 10 000 years and it would be very astonishing if they hadn't evolved and adapted to this very different life. Dogs do understand us pretty well. We should do them a favor and learn a bit 'dog' to be a really good friend.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

IwillcallhimGeorge said:


> I am a believer in the dominance theory. That will never change. However, I'm interested to know what training methods are offered along with these debunking articles and theories. I don't care to debate the subject. I just want to know what training methods go along with this.


When dominance/alpha theory is not employed, training is force-free positive reinforcement, or conditioning.
This link might explain some different views to approaching behaviours often attributed to 'dominance';

Dominance Myths and Dog Training Realities


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

IwillcallhimGeorge said:


> I am a believer in the dominance theory. That will never change. However, I'm interested to know what training methods are offered along with these debunking articles and theories. I don't care to debate the subject. I just want to know what training methods go along with this.


I really enjoy watching Victoria Stillwell's program, and I receive her emails. She is a positive reinforcement dog trainer, and she gets tremendous results with clicker training and treat training. You asked about training methods with positive training. I'm sure I'm over-simplifying, but I believe positive training works by rewarding good behavior and ignoring bad behavior. Ignoring doesn't mean allowing--it just means redirect not punish, nor treat if they fail.


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## Moonfall (Nov 16, 2012)

I fall in the middle. I am a dominant power in my home, the leader. But I also do not think that is the only way to train and can be used alone. You must be the bringer of good things as the leader as well as enforcing rules. Your dog will not respect you if all you do is be dominant. You must also provide, you have to be kind and gentle and loving and learn to be more like a dog. That is what they need, along with a leader.


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## IwillcallhimGeorge (May 29, 2013)

lulu'smom said:


> I really enjoy watching Victoria Stillwell's program, and I receive her emails. She is a positive reinforcement dog trainer, and she gets tremendous results with clicker training and treat training. You asked about training methods with positive training. I'm sure I'm over-simplifying, but I believe positive training works by rewarding good behavior and ignoring bad behavior. Ignoring doesn't mean allowing--it just means redirect not punish, nor treat if they fail.


I like her too. Thanks for the perspective!


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## IwillcallhimGeorge (May 29, 2013)

Wicked Pixie said:


> When dominance/alpha theory is not employed, training is force-free positive reinforcement, or conditioning.
> This link might explain some different views to approaching behaviours often attributed to 'dominance';
> 
> Dominance Myths and Dog Training Realities


So there's not much difference in training. This is beginning to look more like a parenting style thing than about the dog listening or behaving.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I agree, bringing up a dog is a lot like bringing up a baby. While forcing our will on a child and using physical punishment is considered barbaric today, there are still people who think it is an acceptable way to train a dog. 
It is really about trying to understand a dogs behaviour and motivation, and then using positive training methods, instead of scaring and bullying him into 'submission' in an attempt to make him behave in an acceptable way.
I certainly don't believe in letting dogs (or children!) have their own way and run riot! I expect them to respect me, and have clear rules and boundaries. The main difference is these are not influenced by the notion that my dogs are trying to take control and dominate me. By looking beyond dominance theory, I have learnt a lot about dogs and about dog training, and I now have a better relationship with my dogs. For many years i also believed that these theories were correct, and it took me a while to stop trying to explain dogs behaviours using these theories.


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## MaddiLovesDogs (Jan 16, 2014)

This is a great topic!

Ever since I got Ponyo, I've really had to alter my training style. 

In training my past dogs, my methods could basically be summed up in "If you're good, you're life with me will be absolute heaven (stimulation, walks, confidence building, treat training, toys, being on the furniture, people food, affection, coming to work every day). But when you're bad, you're really going to know I disagree (stern words, a spank for yapping, and an alpha roll for showing aggression... never with anger, mind you, never with bad emotion. That is abuse. Always with a clear goal, and when my dogs yielded I immediately ended the correction and things resumed as normal. Only in extreme situations.)" I believed that discipline had to come swift and stern because I bring my dogs to work at a grooming shop/doggy daycare every day, and violence/aggression is NOT tolerated when it comes to other people's dogs... Period.

But you know what I found out? When you correct your dogs in that manner, your dogs learn to correct other dogs (like dogs who communicate will) in that manner. Which can sometimes be overbearing or scary. And it kind of teaches your dogs an impossible standard for other dogs, since most people don't train that rigorously, and lessening your dog's patience for other dog's antics. That took me a few years of training and watching interactions to realize. Looking back I'm pretty disappointed. Sure my 2 dogs behave *outstandingly*, but I feel as if parts of their world are hindered because of the way I communicated with them. They don't fear me, because they know I am not an angry/unbalanced enforcer, but being so intense wasn't really all that necessary in as many situations as I allowed... as I found out once we got Ponyo.

When I got Ponyo, I realized how much I had to learn. She is 3.5lbs and the world is enormous to her. I knew I couldn't use a choke on her for corrections and walks, and I knew (after having a cocker spaniel) she would be very sensitive because of her size, emotionally and physically. I did a lot of research on "shaping" behavior and positive reinforcement, and I've never seen a dog I've had blossom so quickly. 

I am kind of on the fence. I believe dogs are social animals and social hierarchy is a way of life for us all, and corrections and rules should be made. And there have been some situations with my dogs that swift and stern was really the best course (I've avoided fights and dangerous situations with those corrections)... but when it comes to every day stuff? I'm really beginning to open up and like the fact that I'm not exactly "Big Bad Mom" anymore. 

Ponyo has taught me so much in only having her a few months. The other two dogs have helped out a lot, though, and honestly the other two dogs I have are amazing. Our pack runs like a well oiled machine because when Ponyo came in, she immediately saw who was in charge, who was the next one down, and situated herself accordingly. So it's hard for me to say which way is "better". All I know is that I'm happy there's another way, and I *don't* believe that dogs are little grey wolves (although their genes say they are). I believe they've evolved, and so should we. That's the beauty of life. 

Yeah so... if you don't want to read the whole thing up top... I'm kind of on the fence haha


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