# deworm



## princess_ella (Jun 4, 2005)

how often do our chis need to be dewormed for tapeworms,roundworms etc...?


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## holly&peanut (Feb 18, 2006)

my vet told me once a month until there six months old then after that every three months.


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## lecohen (Feb 13, 2005)

Hi there,

My vet told me recently that there are new medical researches that show that once in 3 months after 6 months old is no longer sufficient as roundworms can reappear and therefore routine monthly worming is better to kill at all stages of the life cycle.

That said, if you are using a flea treatment that also tackles roundworm (like stronghold) then once in 3 months after 6 months old is correct

:wave:


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## TareG (Aug 13, 2005)

Halle was dewormed by the breeder before I got her, but other than that, I have never given her deworming medicine and she has never had worms. Bring in a fecal sample if you are ever unsure. If you haven't seen worms, vomiting, or diarrhea, most likely a fecal check would be less expensive than worming medicine anyway.


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## Linariel (Feb 21, 2006)

> my vet told me once a month until there six months old then after that every three months.


That is WAY too often! I've never heard of a vet saying anything like that. Deworming that often will actually harm your dog's immune system! Remember dewormers are PESTICIDES. Would you want to ingest pesticides every month, or even three months? 

Unless your dog is constantly coming into contact with the feces of infected dogs, there is no way they will contract worms that often.


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## holly&peanut (Feb 18, 2006)

i'm just going by what my vet told me!


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## Isshinharu (Jan 27, 2006)

http://www.fbcsa.za.org/worms_and_deworming.htm



> FREQUENCY OF DEWORMING REQUIRED
> The frequency with which owners should deworm their dogs depends on:
> 
> 1. Group of animal (puppy, adult, brood bitch)
> ...


Sounds too frequent to me. :? :dontknow:


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## Linariel (Feb 21, 2006)

I totally understand, however, we tend to over-trust our vets.

Sadly enough, many vets over-vaccinate, over-worm, and over-price medications. You must remember vets make their money from these things. The more often they can get you into the office, the more money they make.

Please don't worm your dog that often...just take a stool sample in once a year, and worm only if needed. There's no reason for preventative worming, other than heartworm. The parasites aren't that dangerous.

I'm wondering how often that vet recommends vaccinations. New studies from the AVMA(american veterinary medical association) show that most vaccinations are good for the life of the dog. However, they have compromised with vets to adjust their protocol to be boosters every three years, so that vets do not lose all their revenue.


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## holly&peanut (Feb 18, 2006)

> I'm wondering how often that vet recommends vaccinations


two vaccinations when he was a puppy(after first one which they can have after 8weeks-ithink, the second one is 2weeks later then there allowed out a week after that), then a booster every year.

I'm not sure if you do things differently, but i think this is the norm for the UK. but i could be wrong.


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## Linariel (Feb 21, 2006)

The AVMA is the one who controls stuff here in the US, so it makes sense that it would be different for you. However, the yearly boosters really aren't necessary, and I bet some of the stuff included in the shots isn't either. 

If you would like more information about vaccinations I would be happy to PM it to you!

There's lots of new AVMA research out that states most vaccines are good for at least seven years, and probably the life of the dog. They say probably because they have only been studying these cases for seven years.

Our doctors don't recommend yearly boosters for us or our children. They're just not required. Just like if you ever had chicken pox as a kid, you're now immune to it.

If your dog receives one booster after sixteen weeks of age, they are now protected for life.

Except in the case of vaccines like leptospirosis, and bordetella(kennel cough) because these don't have much of a "duration of immunity"-they're only good for four to six months. So if you want to vaccinate for these things, you must do it more often than once a year.

If you'd like specific articles, PM me. I've got some interesting stuff bookmarked, much of it written by veterinarians.


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## princess_ella (Jun 4, 2005)

thanks guys by the way Princess new vet has a three year rabies shot you just go every year to update the tag and cert.the booster shot is every year until the dog reaches the age of 3 than its every three years.


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## Linariel (Feb 21, 2006)

You don't have to give boosters every year if you choose not to. (Except rabies, which is required by law).

There's really no reason to.


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## ChiMammaMia (Sep 27, 2005)

No, you don't have to re-vaccinate every year. I respect your opinion on the matter and that you have done your research. However, alot of people will not take the time to do the research which can lead to heartbreak down the road, especially if their beloved pet's titre levels bottom out (after they have fore-gone annual re-vaccination) and they are exposed to Parvo. 

As this is a public forum, you are free to express your viewpoints, as am I...but please be careful in promoting something that requires a great deal of knowledge and time to fully understand. I wouldn't want someone to march into their Vet's office and refuse to booster their pets without fully understanding the possible consequences of doing so.


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## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

Linariel said:


> You don't have to give boosters every year if you choose not to. (Except rabies, which is required by law).
> 
> There's really no reason to.


I have to argue here sorry. You can give your opinions but I have seen with my own eyes what can happen. My parents have a 15 1/2 year old chihuahua. He was vaccinated every year till he was about 9 then they slacked off and just got his rabies shots. Well when he was 11 he got out of the yard and then 11 days later contracted PARVO. It was horrible and they thought he was dying of old age until I told them to take him to the vet something was majorly wrong because 11 is not that old to a chihuahua. They took him to the vet and he came back positive for parvo. He was at the vets for a week on an IV and thankfully he pulled through but if they would have got his vaccinations every year he would not have had to go through that and they wouldn't have been out over $600. So opinions are ok to give but I don't care what I read on the internet I have seen what can happen and a parvo vaccine does not last a lifetime in fact it doesn't last over 2 years. If you choose not to get your dogs vaccinated every year that is your choice but be aware not everything you read is true.


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## Linariel (Feb 21, 2006)

It is not simply what I have read on the internet.

Please do not assume as much.

There are many vets supporting this, mine is one of them.

You cannot deny that there are new vaccination protocols in effect. All the veterinary schools of America have now adopted this protocol. I am sorry you were not aware of this, but I am not just making this up or basing it on some internet article

What happened to your parents dog is very sad. It can happen. 

However, in a dog with a normal, healthy immune system, annual vaccination is not required.

If the dog never had his titers checked, they don't know that he was creating an appropriate immune response. And therefore should not have stopped vaccinating until they were certain he was protected.

Every dog is different.

I am not advocating vaccinating less on a whim-it must be done properly and carefully.

Dogs are just like people in their immune responses. Sometimes a person's vaccine is not effective, and they still contract the disease. Same thing with dogs. If an immune response is not created, the vaccine will have no effect. It sounds like that's what happened with this dog.

Please check out the AVMAs website here:
http://www.avma.org/issues/vaccination/default.asp

You can ask your vet if they really have updated their protocol if you don't believe it just because it's online. Which is a smart thing to do, really. Many vets have not adopted this policy but it is there.

The AVMA is the governing body of american vets. They are not a BS internet resource.

I am not upset, and I'm sorry if I am coming off as forceful. I am just trying to defend my point with scientific research, as I feel kind of attacked when you say that it is just my opinion. It is not.


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## Linariel (Feb 21, 2006)

Also, there is a ton of info regarding vaccines and immunology here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/07...lance&n=283155&tagActionCode=caberfeidhsco-20

It's called Kirks Veterinary Therapy. I used to borrow my sister in law's copy to read through while she was in vet school. Lots of my information comes from there.


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## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

There is no point in argueing I can give you sites that say it is important to vaccinate every year and research to back this but what is the point? You are just going to come back with more sites that back what you say. I really think people need to talk to their vet and do there own research like you said, I just did not want anyone coming to this site and saying well Linariel said it was ok not to get vaccinations every year so I guess you don't have to and then someones dog dying from it. Because I am sure you know as well as I do some people believe everything they read and a lot of people will think this is just a cheap way of having a dog. I know I would not let my children go without there immunizations even if there is a slight chance they can catch something so I do the same for my dogs. Why risk it? Is $50 a year really too much to spend on a pets health?


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## Linariel (Feb 21, 2006)

No, I never said it is too much money. You have to be aware of the dangers of over-vaccinating as well.

I am not arguing. I am showing you that I do not get all my information from the internet. 

I got my information from my vet, and veterinary textbooks.

Anyway, I'm sure you don't immunize your children every year, do you?

If you study the principles of immunology you will see the concepts between dogs and children are the same.

I sent you the website of the foremost veterinary authority in the US. All vets now graduating from vet school will follow this new protocol.

I tend to believe nearly everything I read that comes from veterinary textbooks.


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## Gypsy (Feb 13, 2006)

It's a very controversial subject. I've read several websites which state different things and even the avma site says each dog should have their own vaccination plan. I also dislike hearing just that vaccines are bad for your dog and you shouldn't get anymore, because that isn't the whole case, and I too have seen so many dogs not kept up on their vaccines get parvo and I would hate an inexperienced person to read that and just stop vaccinating without doing their own research and having something terrible happen to their dog. 

It's not worth the risk to me. My mom's bred chis for over 20 years, vaccinated annually and never had problems with it. My vet agrees that there are studies showing that vaccinations are lasting longer and varying opinions on it, and she advised continuing our core vaccinations annually. I know if there is another parvo outbreak, like there were really bad ones years ago, I want my girls to be safe because it can wipe a chi out like nothing.


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## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

Linariel said:


> You don't have to give boosters every year if you choose not to. (Except rabies, which is required by law).
> 
> There's really no reason to.


This is what really confuses me because you put there is no reason to give boosters every year when even the website you posted says that it is necessary to vaccinate and that they should have some boosters every year. Maybe not all are neccesary but some are because it says some last *less* than a year. There are lots of studies being done on this but they are ongoing so lets not jump to conclusions and tell people boosters are not necessary.

Here is a link that even says the duration of immunity for each vaccine is not currently known. http://www.ovma.org/pets/vaccines.html


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## Linariel (Feb 21, 2006)

Generally the vaccines that are good for less than a year are not "core" vaccines, and offer little protection to the disease in the first place.

When I wrote annual revaccination is not necessary, I was referring the the core vaccines.

So the AVMA says one thing, and the AVMA says another...I suppose I am going to trust what the AVMA says, and assume that their research is more current than that of the OVMA.

Keep in mind, this new vaccination protocol is a very recent change. Many vets have not adopted it yet. Yes, the studies are ongoing-however I am drawing my conclusions from the most recent studies and the new AVMA protocol.

Middle ground between over and under-vaccination can be reached. It's all about what you feel comfortable with, because in the end your pet's health is your responsibility.

Titer testing can be done to see if the vaccines that were given were sero-converted, implying immunity to the disease. Some people re-test titers, some do not.

But honestly, do you vaccinate your kids every year? I am guessing not, and if you study immunological concepts you will understand why it is not required for children.

The veterinary community is leery, however, to fully apply their knowledge about animal immunity to their vaccination protocol, for a number of reasons. Mainly:
-Fear of being sued when an animal contracts a disease if *not* vaccinated annually
-Fear of loss of income(I'm not being snide, I can totally understand their point on this)
-Fear that without annual vaccinations, owners will not bring their pets in for a yearly exam.

There are many other reasons vaccination protocols have not changed much.

For every story I hear about a dog getting sick after forgoing annual vaccinations, I can tell you one about an animal getting sick because of vaccinations.

So there's no right answer.


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## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

Q:
How often should pets be revaccinated?

A: Veterinarians have traditionally vaccinated annually; however, they are now learning that some vaccines induce immunity that lasts less than one year, whereas others may induce immunity that lasts well beyond one year. The AVMA recommends that veterinarians customize vaccination programs to the needs of their patients. More than one vaccination program may be effective. 

This is from the website you gave me the AVMA, so even they say some vaccinations are necessary every year. The thing that upset me as I said before was that you said ...You don't have to give boosters every year if you choose not to. (Except rabies, which is required by law). 

There's really no reason to. 

But according to the AVMA there is reason to give some boosters every year so why are you telling people that boosters are unnecessary and there is no reason to to get them except rabies. Obviously the AVMA disagrees with what you stated as well sooo where can you show me that the AVMA says that all annual boosters are not necessary except rabies? I am just wondering why you are still argueing when your website even agrees with me.

As for childrens vaccinations... maybe we should get immunizations more often since I had all mine when I was in school and I am now 30 and got told 2 weeks ago that I have German Measles. The doctors don't have any ideas why I got it but it really sucked I had big swollen bumps behind my ears and felt as if I had arthritis in every joint of my body.


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## Linariel (Feb 21, 2006)

If you read my previous post, you'll see I corrected myself and said I was talking about core vaccines.


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## Linariel (Feb 21, 2006)

I am not arguing with you, once again.

I am wondering why you keep asking me questions that I have already answered. If you would read my posts thoroughly you wouldn't have to keep saying the same thing.


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## ChiMammaMia (Sep 27, 2005)

I appreciate you clarifying your points. As one of those who has delved deep into the vaccination debate...I know that every bit of research is based on Titre Testing.

"Titer testing can be done to see if the vaccines that were given were sero-converted, implying immunity to the disease. Some people re-test titers, some do not."

I am sure that you know that titre testing can be extremely misleading as the levels vary day to day in the same dog. Many Vets do not offer it and it can be VERY expensive up to $75 a titre (possibly more). Meaning that you aren't paying $75 to test for ALL the titres...just one. It goes like this: Parvo Titre $75, Distemper Titre $75 and so on. It can be far too costly for the average pet owner to spend just to see if they need to forego the $25 vaccination. 

"The veterinary community is leery, however, to fully apply their knowledge about animal immunity to their vaccination protocol, for a number of reasons. Mainly: 
-Fear of being sued when an animal contracts a disease if *not* vaccinated annually 
-Fear of loss of income(I'm not being snide, I can totally understand their point on this) 
-Fear that without annual vaccinations, owners will not bring their pets in for a yearly exam."

Very well said! Correct. Since they are the people on the "front lines" so-to-speak they are the ones who have to interact with the pet owners. I would also imagine that the remaining "old school" Vets out there that had to crawl through the agonizing previous outbreaks of Parvo in their communities...they are fearful of an epidemic if vaccination dwindles out. I can only imagine what an incredible loss of pets there would be if that happened. 


"For every story I hear about a dog getting sick after forgoing annual vaccinations, I can tell you one about an animal getting sick because of vaccinations."

Yes, and I would like to point out that most of the reactions seen in pets DUE to vaccination is not from the viruses in the vaccine itself; but is instead attributed to the type of adjuvent used in the creation of the vaccine. These will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and the dog will not have reactions to every type. Unfortunately most folks don't know this and their Vet's are not willing to explain it to them.

I know that there is a very real movement in the Veterinary community (as well as the pet-owner community) to try less vaccination. I just hope that they do their own reasearch (like you have Linariel) and that their Vets are willing to explain the pros and cons as well as offer Titre Testing at least bi-yearly to them to assure immunity.

I have made my own decisions as to annual boosters...my dogs will all get them. I equate it to knowing I am going to slam my car into a concrete wall. If I have the choice to wear my seat belt or not...I'm going to wear it. 

I do worry about those that are under-informed on the issue-- making rash decisions. We have not all but irradicated Parvo or Distemper (like we have Polio or Mumps or Rubella) so there are still very real dangers out there for our Pets as far as infection/exposure to these go.

I have stated my piece on this subject...I would like to be objective here and let those reading know that Linariel has made her case very well. Anyone who is looking into boostering less-- then PLEASE do your research. TALK to your Vet. Think about it long and hard and come to your own decision. Don't just take anyone's word on anything, look at both sides of the issue. (Off my soapbox now!! :wave: )


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## Linariel (Feb 21, 2006)

Thank you, very well said.

The input is appreciated, though I kind of feel like you're defending me(and you don't have to).  

Sometimes I get a little frustrated trying to explain myself on the same issues over and over. So if I leave things out from time to time, that would be why.

I think I'm done with the vaccine issue....if anyone wants more information, there's tons of it out there whether you prefer internet articles or textbooks, you can find what you want to know. I would hope no one would base a decision solely on the opinion or advice of any one person-be it a forum member, a neighbour, or even a vet. 

Even the medical community is not free from corruption, so I advise anyone wanting more information to seek it from truly unprejudiced sources.

Which is what I tell the local pet store owner who receives her animal nutrition education from the Diamond petfood company.


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## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

Linariel said:


> Thank you, very well said.
> 
> The input is appreciated, though I kind of feel like you're defending me(and you don't have to).
> 
> ...


I totally agree research research research! Sorry I didn't quite understand what you were saying, but now it is clear with the core vaccinations. What I was reading just was not coming out right but after reading quite a few things and rereading the entire post I can see what you are saying I was just scared that someone really young would read this and think they didn't have to get their dogs any shots except rabies.


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## princess_ella (Jun 4, 2005)

Sorry guys if i started something here.this was info.given to me by a vet especially for dogs that react badly to the booster shots.Princess was really sick last year when she got hers and the rabies shot here where i live is being offered as a three year shot .


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