# I am livid.



## skwerlylove (Apr 24, 2010)

Elliot has a real problem with coming when she is called, even though I have trained her to do so. Like with so many Chis, she only does this when she wants to.

Lately, it has been getting a little bit worse each time we go outside to go potty. She will go a little farther away from me until she comes back. I decided to put her on her lead for awhile and give her a refresher about how to "come". She did excellent as per usual. So I let her off again. 

Pip, I rarely put her on a lead unless we are going out in public because she stays with me and comes when she's called.

Well, today Elliot takes off across the road (we live at the end of a dead end road, so it isn't THAT terrible that she crossed a road, but still A ROAD. What if she had gotten away from me downtown for some reason?!) and in to the unplanted cornfield. I call for her to come back, she looks at me... and then takes off at a run in the other direction. Pip follows her.

And so it went. I followed after them, calling for them in my bathrobe and flip flops in to the corn field. On my way I picked up a hunk of the hollow corn stalk. Pip was the first to be captured half way up the width of the cornfield. I gave her one good swat on the butt and picked her up. She screamed like I was killing her though. She's pretty sensitive like that, so it doesn't take much.

Elliot made me follow her not only the entire width of that cornfield, but the ENTIRE length of it too. Let me tell you, I was pretty livid as she would turn around, look at me, then take off again. When I finally caught up with her, I grabbed her by her scruff and gave her two good smacks on her butt and two across her nose. 

Please keep in mind that I never use physical force as a punishment for my dogs. I have AlWAYS used positive reinforcement, praise, and treats. This time, though, I wanted to send them a message and I think I have. I banished them both to the sofa instead of allowing them to follow me in my room as per usual.

This has got to stop. In this area I have owls, coyotes, hawks, eagles, the neighbors bitbulls who are uncontrollable, all the cows out there... all manner of things that will either squish or eat a couple of chihuahuas who run a cornfield's length away from me.

So, I have finally made the decision to train Elliot on a shock collar. I have talked to my vet about it, and she has had great success with them personally. The collar will emit a high pitched sound before the shock (which I control from my hand, it is a low shock) and then if she doesn't learn to come back when that sound goes off... she gets a shock.

I really didn't want to have to do that to her, but this is one behavior I WILL NOT tolerate from any of my animals (even my cats come when they're called) and I have been more than patient with her. I have spent more than enough time with her from 3 months old working on this. She knows better, and she has proven that she knows better.

How about you guys? Ever come to a point where you are ready to try something drastic to get that habit in control with your Chi?


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

OMG.. I'm sorry but the vision of you in a bathrobe with flip flops running through a cornfield yelling at your Chi's made me laugh out loud.

I'd be mad too mama! I would! I agree it's not acceptable.. they could get killed by an animal or even worse hit by a car! I don't have much experience with this.

I hope the collars work for you, she sounds like she is one hard headed Chi!


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

I hesitate to say this because so many people disagree with them, but we had no choice but to get a bark collar for Laurel. We needed results...FAST. She was being so loud and mouthy all day long that our townhome complex was ready to kick us out. 

The young ones have all been trained to be quiet when told, but Laurel is 6 and has done whatever she wanted for as long as she's been alive. It's been very effective, but I will warn you, when they do get shocked, it really seems to hurt them. She yelps and seems terrified (and then barks again, stupid dog). We got one for dogs 6-12 lbs and she's 13 lbs and still yelps like the world is ending whenever she gets shocked. It gives her 2 warning beeps but she ignores them. We talked to a dog trainer who said that if we genuinely needed fast results, the collar was the way to go. I swear Laurel is brain damaged because you'd walk in the door and she'd run up smelling you and looking at you and keep barking for 5 minutes no matter how much you tried to get her to be quiet. Even holding her muzzle shut she'd still be going at it:-/ You can't reward a "quiet" moment if there ISN'T one, lol.

That said, we don't ever hit our dogs, EVER. They're too small and you can really hurt them. I know you were angry and frustrated and upset but you'd feel really bad if you caused any damage. I don't believe that a dog should associate physical correction with me as a person. 

If they're running off when they're outside, simply do NOT let them off of their leashes. Being leash free is a huuuuuge privilege, and quite frankly, I never let ours off lead because of the hawks and eagles that are around... I know it's not as convenient for you as it is to just let them scamper out the door to potty, but obviously they have other ideas in mind. I don't see how punishing a dog for not coming when it's twenty feet away from you is going to do any good, other than startle and scare her and confuse her. It doesn't say "run to mommy" it says...'RUN!'. 

I do hope you can find another solution but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. After about a month of use, the collar has made Laurel bark less, but she still barks. The collar might make Elliot run off less, but she will still run off. :-/


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Why is it some dogs bolt? my oldest dog was bad for this when he was young, any open door and he went nutso, I spent ages working with him and eventually he got over it.. but truthfully I think he just got old ;-) 

The bark collars did not phase my mom's dog that she used it on, she kept barking right through the shocks and didn't seem to mind them! LOL now that's brain damage!


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## Tanna (Jan 29, 2009)

I have no Comment, Did you try and turn around and run in the other direction in hopes that they would follow?


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## svdreamer (Feb 20, 2010)

My answer is really, really simple. Don't let them off the leash. With you chasing her, she thought it was a fun game. Hitting them will not train them to come to you. All hitting them does is let you relaese your frustration. If you really have all those dangers, don't let them off the leash. I have had almost 80 dogs and only with two was I confident enough to walk without a leash, my whippet that was course trained and my german sheppard that was glued to my side always.


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## foggy (Oct 12, 2009)

I feel very strongly about not hitting or using any type of shock collar. I agree with svdreamer, keep them on a leash. I really don't think most dogs can be completely trusted off a leash, even those that are very well trained will still sometimes give into the temptation of a distraction.


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

Hmm, I don't necessarily disagree with a shock collar. For a bigger dog with barking problems. (we had one when we had our large lab mix for barking & it worked great with the 2 warning beeps prior to a small shock which increased with intensity if the dog continued to bark every 15 seconds) My dad & step mom have a shock collar & use it to train their dogs to stay in their yard. If they wander too far they call & hit the button when the reach a certain spot in the yard when they've gone too far & aren't responding. I've personally never tried this but to each their own. 

However, I'd never dare to use a shock collar on a small dog. Perhaps if I was DESPERATE & in a situation about being evicted because of it I'd consider it as a temporary training tool (and made especially for a small dog). Otherwise I would not.

Personally though I'm going to agree with those that say do not let her off leash PERIOD. It would save on frustration for you & danger for her. I've heard even the best trained, with 100% recall, agility dogs are not allowed off leash because they just can't have the opportunity to mess up. 

If I had a bolter - I would NOT let them off leash. My lab mix was a bolter & he was never allowed off leash except when we played fetch with him (he'd stay for fetch LOL). Otherwise he was always on a leash - no questions asked. If he did happen to get out, I finally got to the point where I just left him....and he came back. But I live in a very quiet area on a dead end road where I was comfortable to do so. And honestly I was so angry when it happened I just said "frig it!". haha 

Anyway, I always read/heard on training videos that when it happens to make it a game because that's what they think it is. Make a loud high pitched noise & when they turn to look at you turn & start walking in the opposite direction...make it VERY exciting by acting excited & loud. If they follow - treat them. It's good to do this in a controled place for practice but I'd still keep them leashed even if their recall goes up. But then you have it to use in emergency situations. As mad as you were you should have praised when you finally caught them. Spanking is only going to make her run further & longer next time because she knows she'll be getting a swat if you catch her. While I don't disagree with a swat for certain things (or a flick as I like to do with these guys since they're so small) - using it when you get something you WANT is detrimental to what you're trying to accomplish. When it's used as a frustration relief...it's not really doing anything useful & will only regress any progress she had made previously.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

I agree with what Heather has said. We really had no choice because we *were* in danger of getting evicted and needed to figure something out FAST. We only leave it on her when we are not home and I *HATE* it. Sure, it's worked, but the poor thing. :-/ I also never would have felt comfortable had she been a normal sized chi but since she's a mix and 13-14 lbs, we decided to try :-/ but we are trying our best to use it's help now and train past it, but its hard because when we're not here, we're not here. Your situation is different as Elliot isn't outside when you aren't :-/


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

I am livid too. But not because of the chi's not coming when called. Because of how YOU reacted.

First problem - you let them off leash. YOU let them off the leash. They are not reliable with their recall so that was your mistake.

Second - you chased after them with a cornstalk in your hand. Of COURSE they are going to run. I'm sure your body language and you yelling at them to come back was frightening.

Third - when you caught them, *you hit them. With a stick. * You said ... _"When I finally caught up with her, I grabbed her by her scruff and gave her two good smacks on her butt and two across her nose." _ With Pip, you said ... "_I gave her one good swat on the butt and picked her up. She screamed like I was killing her though. She's pretty sensitive like that, so it doesn't take much."_

You picked up your dogs and you hit them and one of them was screaming. I am shocked and speechless to tell the truth.

And now you are talking about putting them in a shock collar? Have you ever tried one? It's not just a tiny vibration. It is A SHOCK. I can't even IMAGINE putting a shock collar on a chihuahua's tiny and tender neck/trachea. I think it is cruel and barbaric.

As for solving your problem, I can't even think straight right now as I am sooooo very upset by your post and how you handled the situation. I will stop now before I say something I regret, but I am SHOCKED AND APPALLED at how you handled this situation. 

If I was your dog, I would run too. I would run as far away from you as I possibly could.


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## LiMarChis (Mar 29, 2010)

What you just taught them is that when you call them, when they reach you, they will be beaten. Not what I think you're trying to teach them. Dogs are not capable of understanding why they are being beaten. They should never be hit. It serves no purpose and is harmful, physically and mentally, to the dog.

They both need to be on lead at all times. I don't know of any place that doesn't have a leash law. Just because they are Chis doesn't mean they shouldn't wear one. If these were Pitbulls off leash, everyone would be screaming. If they then ran away, you can bet AC would be called. 

I haven't seen any shock collars that I think are appropriate for Chis. They are small dogs and I've not seen any systems that have a small enough collar not to a.) have too strong a current and/or b.) have a collar that doesn't weigh too much for Chis to comfortably wear. For other breeds, I have known them to be successfully used for avoidance training (underground fencing, fence fighting, jumping, barking) but I've never heard of them being used to teach "come." I'm not sure how a tone or sock when the dog is standing away from you is going to make them come to you. I'm not a professional trainer by any means, so maybe they know something I don't when it comes to shock collars. I'm still trying to get over the shock of the dog being beaten in the head and rear. Poor baby.


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

skwerlylove said:


> Elliot has a real problem...


oh yes. that is obvious :coolwink:



skwerlylove said:


> ....How about you guys? Ever come to a point where you are ready to try something drastic to get that habit in control with your Chi?


In a word-- No.


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## Terri (Aug 21, 2009)

Yeah am pretty shocked myself with how you reacted.
I cant believe you would hit those teeny dogs like that and admit it on a public forum, like it's ok too, it's not!
I also dont agree with shock collars either.


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## rocky scotland (Jun 15, 2008)

Brodysmom said:


> I am livid too. But not because of the chi's not coming when called. Because of how YOU reacted.
> 
> First problem - you let them off leash. YOU let them off the leash. They are not reliable with their recall so that was your mistake.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree, if your dog has not a good recall, KEEP IT ON THE LEAD. Rocky has an excellent recall so therefore has the privilidge of getting time off lead in the park.

A dog will ALWAYS run when getting chased.

And as for a shock collar, I would never use one.


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## Tiptoe (Apr 17, 2010)

Defo try the walking or running the other direction, its always worked for any dogs iv had/walked, my dads dog always did that but as soon as i turned and walked away she would worry id leave her and followed me. 
Try treats even too, there has to be other ways, i personally would only consider using something like a shock collar on big breeds, if even.
And obvious answer every1s said just dont let them off if u have to.
And dont punish them wen u eventually get them back to u, ur sending them the complete opposite msg ur trying to, no matter how angry u are, keep it in.
Why would they come back to u if you punished them the last time they did.


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## Tiptoe (Apr 17, 2010)

P.s iv held shock collars b4 as a friend has one 4 her doberman and they r quite heavy i dont know how a chi could even carry one let alone bare the shock of one!


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## jazzman (Apr 8, 2009)

The only effective time to discipline a dog is IMMEDIATELY as he does the negative behavior.

By chasing him all over creation, then smacking him when you got to him, you are teaching him that if he comes to you, he'll be punished - not what you want.

You have to remain calm, no matter how difficult, with a small dog.

Anyway, as others have said..I've had half a dozen dogs and there isn't a one
I would trust off lead. The ONLY time they've ever been off lead is in a fenced in area - period.

It is impossible to train a dog to not be a dog. No amount of training results in a dog that won't bolt when his mind is made up. The urge to be a dog is stronger than any shock collar, shouting, stick or fist.

There is no value in having your dogs off leash - that could possibly outweigh
having safe, alive, and with you.


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## Deme (Aug 18, 2009)

When I read the post my jaw dropped with shock at how you reacted, first of all you hit the dogs because you were angry and frustrated.

By hitting your dogs all you have done is strengthen their belief that coming to you is the wrong thing to do.

You have also created a bad relationship, once you hit an animal you lose respect and they don't forget. Once you lose respect you loose the relationship. You then have an animal that never sees you as a companion, trusted friend or partner.

However the damage is done and thats that and it will take a long long time to get a mere % of trust back, you will now instead have dogs that fear you.

The golden rule as others have said is if you dogs recall is not 100& then they do not get off the lead. By giving praise and reward when they do good is a positive move, and never ever react to any negatives especially in the way you did. Hitting a dog as small as a Chi can cause internal bruising and hitting a dog on the nose is gonna do one thing, damage the dogs sense of smell and even possibly break a small bone.

An animal will always all its life test its boundaries and as the leader you have to maintain leaderships using positive methods.

When I take Jake out and I notice he has wandered off a little further than I would like sometimes I don't call him, instead I hide so that I can still see him but he can't see me.

He looks up, sees I am gone, panics and then sees me or gets my scent and comes literally bounding over like a greyhound.
I then kneel down to his level and make an enourmous fuss of him like he has been the best lad ever.

I have however had times when I have called him and he has ignored me, I patiently call until he does come to me or I get close enough to be able to catch him. I then clip on the lead and he stays on the lead until we re-establish a good recall. 

I know how frustrated you felt, I have had times with my horse where I have spent 3 hrs in pouring thunderstorms trying to catch him and then got angry when I finally did and shouted at him. (as if he could understand me) which meant the next time I tried to catch him was even harder.

I learnt to control my negative emotions and now my horses catch me...

This control is what you need to learn, its hard but you can do it. Also think about things from your dogs point of view, all that space to run around and have fun, mummy playing chase which dogs love. Then you getting angry which then scares the dog so they run away even more.. Then you hit them which tells them coming to you was the wrong thing to do.

I think when you posted on here you were still angry and vented your frustations on the forum as you needed to just tell someone.

Now imagine how much respect you have lost to others on here..... 

Try when you have calmed down reading your post and think... what could I have done differently?

Please please please don't hit your dogs, we take them in to look after them, love them and give them security.

Hoping things turn out for the better and don't forget, put your dog back on the leash and always use it until recall is learnt 100% even if it takes years.

Deme


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## skwerlylove (Apr 24, 2010)

First of all, I knew this wouldn't be a particularly popular post. I apologize to all whose sensibilities I have offended.

As for hitting them. They were not beaten, and only Pip yelped. AFTER I had smacked her behind. It was a hollow cornstalk that is easily broken in one hand, with little force. They were not injured, and they were not beaten. They were acutely aware that what they did was wrong, and have been instant in responding to my verbal command of "come" inside the house for the remainder of the day. When I take them outside for their next potty break, of course they will be on leads. 

If you will recall, I stated in my original post that I DO NOT USE PHYSICAL FORCE AS PUNISHMENT. That was the *first time I swatted Pip, and only the SECOND for Elliot.* The first time was when she was a pup. She bit me, and I swatted her nose. She has NEVER bitten anyone again, nor has it scarred her for life as some of you no doubt have imagined. Elliot is an impeccably well behaved dog aside from the potty training quandary we have, and not coming when she is called, SELECTIVELY. For anything else, I have gotten more compliments on her behavior and training than I have of any of my dogs previously. The fact is, that physical force CAN be effective when not used all the time. If you have to consistently hit your animals, then that is obviously not effective at all. If you are beating them, bruising them, breaking bones, and generally abusing them then yes. It is heinous and appalling, and WRONG.

I have had many, many dogs over the course of my lifetime, and come from a long line of dog owners. There isn't one time in my life where I can even remember not having one around. If one method of training is NOT working, then it is useless to continue on in that line of training. Not all dogs are trained equally. Elliot has been exceptionally difficult to train in all areas, but it can be done. 

Our landlord has made us take our fence down, as somehow he didn't like the way it looked. I have no idea. The dogs (all four of them. My two, and my roommates two) are being trained to be allowed to play in where the yard was without being on leads. YES, that is how we have STARTED them. Id on leads. Now, everyone has graduated to being able to run in what used to be our yard only without the fence. Elliot knows very well how to come. She has been doing it since she was a puppy. She has been opting not to do it here within the last two weeks. She will have several good days, then it is back on the lead because she runs off. Then several more good days. When we leave home, they are all on leads. I don't take my dogs in to public places without one. At home, they are being trained to stay within certain confines, and that is simply the way it is.

I am very close with both of my vets. One of them is my roommate, and I work for the other (they are both in the same practice, so they talk all the time). They recommended a shock collar to me as part of her training in this area. If my veterinarians feel that it is a safe and effective training tool, then I will trust them and use it. If Elliot does not respond well to this training, then I will stop using it. At any rate, the method of training needs too change, and my VETS recommend it. 

Again, I do apologize for those of you who were offended and here are some other specific responses to your posts.




Tanna said:


> I have no Comment, Did you try and turn around and run in the other direction in hopes that they would follow?


Of course. I tried all methods of getting them to come to me on their own BEFORE pursuing them. Including shaking their treat canister, which I bring outside with me every time we go out.




Brodysmom said:


> First problem - you let them off leash. YOU let them off the leash. They are not reliable with their recall so that was your mistake.
> 
> Second - you chased after them with a cornstalk in your hand. Of COURSE they are going to run. I'm sure your body language and you yelling at them to come back was frightening.


They have been being trained, as stated above, to stay within the confines of our yard. This wasn't the first time they had been off their leashes. 



Brodysmom said:


> Third - when you caught them, *you hit them. With a stick. * You said ... _"When I finally caught up with her, I grabbed her by her scruff and gave her two good smacks on her butt and two across her nose." _ With Pip, you said ... "_I gave her one good swat on the butt and picked her up. She screamed like I was killing her though. She's pretty sensitive like that, so it doesn't take much."_
> 
> You picked up your dogs and you hit them and one of them was screaming. I am shocked and speechless to tell the truth.


Yes. When I caught up with them, I hit them. With a hollow, brittle, piece of cornstalk. A little more than the length on my hand. Easily broken my applying pressure, with just one hand. Pip screamed after I smacked her bottom with it. She also screamed today when the vet examined the stitches from her spay. She also screamed last night when one of the cats leapt at her. She screams. A lot. I assure you, she wasn't being beaten.

Elliot got the same treatment, with the same tool. She didn't yelp, I did not hurt her anymore than I intended to. Two swift swats across the nose and butt with a hollow, brittle cornstalk. 



Brodysmom said:


> And now you are talking about putting them in a shock collar? Have you ever tried one? It's not just a tiny vibration. It is A SHOCK. I can't even IMAGINE putting a shock collar on a chihuahua's tiny and tender neck/trachea. I think it is cruel and barbaric.


I would venture to guess that you have never been around a shock collar, as I used to feel the same way. I was appalled when my mom used one on her basset hound for barking, but he stopped that bad behavior within two weeks- and didn't have to be on the collar again. I have personally been shocked with his collar. Yes, it is uncomfortable, but not painful. It is more surprising than anything.

Both of my veterinarians have had success with shock collar training, and it isn't meant to be permanent. Of course if Elliot doesn't respond to it, then it is pointless to keep at it. So, you may think it is barbaric and cruel, but if my Veterinarians approve and were the ones to recommend it- then I will trust the professionals and give it a try.


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## Guess (Sep 23, 2009)

When our old family Shepherd from many years ago was a pup, we had a HUGE greenbelt behind our house, so all we had to do was open the gate and let him out(very private community in which we all knew each other and our pets)

Well, he kept being cheeky with his recall around a year old. Would always turn and BOLT as fast as he could the other way!

So my mom borrowed our neighbours Dobe's old shock collar. Put it on him, and let him out, his usual routine.

My mom asked him to come, once again, he took off in the other direction...
One zap, a flip in the air, and a thud on his bottom solved his recall for life.


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

LiMarChis said:


> I haven't seen any shock collars that I think are appropriate for Chis.


Neither have I...just to clarify. I said I would consider it as a last resort (as opposed to being evicted or something to that extent) if I found one suitable. The ones I've seen in the stores I think go down to 8lbs...but no way would I put them on Milo & he is 9lbs! They're far too big & I'm guessing - too strong of a current.


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

Here is the definition of Physical Abuse in our State. You crossed the line
when you picked an object to strike your dog. Here, people are charged 
with animal cruelty for what you are trying to justify. You would be arrested.

"Physical Abuse. (You can’t beat, torture, or burn animals) It is unlawful for anyone to willfully or maliciously kill, maim, disfigure, torture, beat with a stick, chain or club or other object, mutilate, burn or scald with any substance or cruelly set upon any animal. (*The exception is to drive off vicious or trespassing animals)"
http://www.nehumanesociety.org/site/PageServer?pagename=laws_Reporting_Animal_Cruelty


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

skwerlylove said:


> They were acutely aware that what they did was wrong, and have been instant in responding to my verbal command of "come" inside the house for the remainder of the day. When I take them outside for their next potty break, of course they will be on leads.


Uhm, I absolutely 100% disagree there. Dogs are not humans - they live in the moment. They can't think back & relate as to why they are being treated a particular way about something that happened 5 minutes ago..even if you "tell them" or you think they knew what they were doing when they ran away from you. Dogs have insticts in this case was to run. Run as to play a game with you, run because they were afraid of what may happen when you reached them, run because they picked up a scent or for whatever reason. Their sole purpose of running wasn't because they were purposely trying to disobey your last command.

What they related to "swatting" to was their last action - COMING TO YOU. Which is why I said it will regress much of the work you had done previously because they think they got swatted for letting you pick them up.

While you use physical force as punishment usually or not...you did that time. That is why the reactions here (as you sort of expected). I missed the fact you swatten them with a corn stalk too - yikes is my reply to that.


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## skwerlylove (Apr 24, 2010)

Jerry'sMom said:


> Here is the definition of Physical Abuse in our State. You crossed the line
> when you picked an object to strike your dog. Here, people are charged
> with animal cruelty for what you are trying to justify. You would be arrested.
> 
> ...


And I agree with that. I know you are very disapproving of the actions I chose to take with my dogs, but they were *not* beaten. I understand your anger, as working in a vet clinic I have seen many, many beaten and abused animals. 

I am not trying to justify the action. I admit I did it, and while it was not the desirable thing to do, it did work and I don't have need to do it again.


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## Deme (Aug 18, 2009)

Good of you to reply in such a positive manner, and please don't think I was saying you could break bones by hitting on the nose.. it was just an example of what could happen, but saying that I still say you should never hit on the nose no matter how soft it is..

Also hitting you dog when you caught her will teach her coming to you is wrong as animals need to be reprimanded immediately for their actions like within seconds.

As for Shock Collars I never made a judgement or aired views as I have no experience of them with dogs. I have seen a similar shock therapy unit used on a small pony though, it was attached to the girth rather than the neck and when the pony did not do as the trainer asked he would switch the control on giving the pony a shock. I admit I did not like to see the reaction and would never use one myself. 

I know I have now twice refered to horses but I have more experience with them than dogs and again its a way of trying to explain my experiences.


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## appleblossom (Mar 10, 2005)

skwerlylove said:


> I did not hurt her anymore than I intended to. Two swift swats across the nose and butt with a hollow, brittle cornstalk.


From this I gather that you were trying to hurt her some?

Im sorry but if a dog doesnt come when called 100 percent of the time it shouldnt be allowed of lead at any time in an unfenced in yard you are just asking for trouble...


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## skwerlylove (Apr 24, 2010)

Alright. You guys are right. I have realized my error, and I do apologize for upsetting the community.

I'm not trying to justify the action, and it was wrong. 

I do hope that regardless of my faux pas today, that you can understand that both of my animals are extremely well cared for, are worked with constantly, and loved very much.

Again, apologies.


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## Tanna (Jan 29, 2009)

I know that if I ever hit Paco he would be so hurt and disapointed, he would lose some of the love and companionship he has with me. I only have to speak to him in a sturn voice and ignore him for about 15 minutes and he gets the point. I know that there are many ways to perimeter train a dog and using a schock collar is probably not one of them. I was so disturbed when I read your post that I was completely speechless. I to as many of the people on this board have had dogs my entire life and the treatment you suggest has never been used on any of my pets. I only hope you can sort this all out in a more humane and loving way.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

MChis said:


> Neither have I...just to clarify. I said I would consider it as a last resort (as opposed to being evicted or something to that extent) if I found one suitable. The ones I've seen in the stores I think go down to 8lbs...but no way would I put them on Milo & he is 9lbs! They're far too big & I'm guessing - too strong of a current.


The one we found for Laurel is for 6-12 lb dogs. Both hubby and I put it on the bare skin of our necks and hollared to make it shock us. It's startling, but no more so than a good zap from a random shock from touching the outside of your car. Please keep in mind, WE DONT LIKE that this is the solution, but for now it is :-/ We can't really afford to move ATM because of our lease, and our other alternative was to rehome her which isn't going to happen, she's part of the family. The actual "shock" box on it is about the size of 1/3 standard candy bar and weighs only a few ounces. Laurel doesn't like anything at all that suggests she isn't boss and so she yelps, but I don't think it's hurting her, as we tried it out :-/ BUT I would *NEVER* put one on the smaller guys. I think because the problem isn't going to get you evicted from where you live, you should just leash her. That's my opinion. She's your dog.

A lot of people are going to judge you for what you did and the fact that you chose to tell us, but people make mistakes. I am not going to assume you regularly beat your dogs because you thwaped them once or twice with a corn stalk, no matter how bad I think that is. 

Whether we'd like to admit it or not, I would guess MOST of us here have made a mistake such as yours at one time or another. For those that haven't, that's wonderful and great. But many people have and their dogs are still happy little friends. I dumped a bucket of water on Laurel once (before we got Oakley) because she ran onto the floor I was trying to clean with muddy feet for the 4th or 5th time. Whoops. She yelped and screamed and stayed the heck off of the floor, still almost a year later won't go near it when I'm mopping. Was that the right thing to do, NO! Would I do it again just because it worked? No. Will people think I'm baaaad for doing that...I'm sure. But the reality is most of us make mistakes from time to time and it doesn't mean we should be judged.


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

skwerlylove said:


> ....I'm not trying to justify the action, and it was wrong....Again, apologies.


You didn't hurt us; it's your dogs you need to make it up to


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## appleblossom (Mar 10, 2005)

skwerlylove said:


> Alright. You guys are right. I have realized my error, and I do apologize for upsetting the community.
> 
> I'm not trying to justify the action, and it was wrong.
> 
> ...


everyone does make mistakes but if you are allowing them off lead when they dont always come back you are just setting them & yourself up for failure...Have you maybe considered a really long piece of light rope or string or something like that to tie onto their harnesses or collars so they feel as though they are free but arent? that way they cant run away


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## skwerlylove (Apr 24, 2010)

flippedstars said:


> The one we found for Laurel is for 6-12 lb dogs. Both hubby and I put it on the bare skin of our necks and hollared to make it shock us. It's startling, but no more so than a good zap from a random shock from touching the outside of your car. Please keep in mind, WE DONT LIKE that this is the solution, but for now it is :-/ We can't really afford to move ATM because of our lease, and our other alternative was to rehome her which isn't going to happen, she's part of the family. The actual "shock" box on it is about the size of 1/3 standard candy bar and weighs only a few ounces. Laurel doesn't like anything at all that suggests she isn't boss and so she yelps, but I don't think it's hurting her, as we tried it out :-/ BUT I would *NEVER* put one on the smaller guys. I think because the problem isn't going to get you evicted from where you live, you should just leash her. That's my opinion. She's your dog.
> 
> A lot of people are going to judge you for what you did and the fact that you chose to tell us, but people make mistakes. I am not going to assume you regularly beat your dogs because you thwaped them once or twice with a corn stalk, no matter how bad I think that is.
> 
> Whether we'd like to admit it or not, I would guess MOST of us here have made a mistake such as yours at one time or another. For those that haven't, that's wonderful and great. But many people have and their dogs are still happy little friends. I dumped a bucket of water on Laurel once (before we got Oakley) because she ran onto the floor I was trying to clean with muddy feet for the 4th or 5th time. Whoops. She yelped and screamed and stayed the heck off of the floor, still almost a year later won't go near it when I'm mopping. Was that the right thing to do, NO! Would I do it again just because it worked? No. Will people think I'm baaaad for doing that...I'm sure. But the reality is most of us make mistakes from time to time and it doesn't mean we should be judged.



Thank you.


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## LittleHead (May 20, 2004)

My Britney is horrible when it comes to "coming" when being called. I am an impatient person and there were times when I was calling and calling her, and she just continued on her way walking through whatever area we were in. I have to tell you, I was completely ready to give her swab on her butt, but I realized that it's *not* Britney, it's me who was idiotic enough to trust her over and over again without being leashed. 

Now when I do take both of my girls out for a walk, Britney is always leashed. At first, she would look at Butter like, "hey why is she way ahead of me" but she's become very comfortable being leashed up now and it's also less stressful for me, because I no longer have to worry about her bolting after someone or dogs 25x her size. 

I personally would not use a shock collar on my girls, but your dogs are not My dogs. I hope you have positive results with that. 


:ngreet2:


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

foggy said:


> I feel very strongly about not hitting or using any type of shock collar. I agree with svdreamer, keep them on a leash. I really don't think most dogs can be completely trusted off a leash, even those that are very well trained will still sometimes give into the temptation of a distraction.




Strongly agree ..or have a fence around your garden. To use a shock collar because you don't want to keep them on a leash or put up a fence seems extreme


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## skwerlylove (Apr 24, 2010)

Bellatrix said:


> Strongly agree ..or have a fence around your garden. To use a shock collar because you don't want to keep them on a leash or put up a fence seems extreme


It does seem extreme. I had a large fenced in area for my two dogs, and the roommate's (also one of my Vets) two dogs. The landlord demanded about a month ago that we take it down. I don't know why, considering we are out of city limits and at the end of a dead end road.

Again, I have personally been shocked by a dogs shock collar... and one that was meant to be for a larger dog than a Chi. Its uncomfortable, not painful. If she responded to other forms of training I would not try it. Elliot is the only one we're going to try this on (again, at my Vet's recommendation) as Pip responds to other forms of training.


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## skwerlylove (Apr 24, 2010)

Deme said:


> Good of you to reply in such a positive manner, and please don't think I was saying you could break bones by hitting on the nose.. it was just an example of what could happen, but saying that I still say you should never hit on the nose no matter how soft it is..
> 
> Also hitting you dog when you caught her will teach her coming to you is wrong as animals need to be reprimanded immediately for their actions like within seconds.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I appreciate both of your posts. I want to respond with respect and positivity as I know this is a very respectable community who all have helpful things to say on the subject. I realize that today I let my frustration with them get the best of my good senses, and have lost respect among you. I accept that, but hope that I am not judged too harshly for it in the long run. 

Again, I appreciate your kind words and insights.


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## Bellatrix (Apr 23, 2010)

Your landlord doesn't have the right to make you take down a fence, i'm a landlord and as long as it's not damaging they can't.

Why don't you invest in one of the wire play pens so your dogs can go outside in a contained area instead of a fence.

To hit or shock a dog because it's doing what comes naturally is beyond my understanding, dogs run away, it's up to you to keep a leash on or not put the dog in the position where it can run away, sorry.


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## Tanna (Jan 29, 2009)

Why can't you take Appleblossoms suggestions and keep Elliot on a very long lead attached to your waist so if she dosen't come on command, you give the lead a tug and tell her to come again, if she dosen't respond take her inside confine her and ignore her for a period of time and try again later. I can't believe that Elliot will not respond to any other sort of trainning. Maybe you just need more patience, or maybe Elliot is not the dog for you it seems that your personalities don't mesh very well.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Hitting a dog for anything is wrong, period. No matter what they did. Eviction, or not, there are other ways to train your dog. If you can't do it, hire a professional. I have never hit my dogs for anything. Never would I. I have had some calls when Gia was younger that she majorly pushed limits. She was much harder to train than the others. I was in my night clothes one time, she decides to dart out of the front door, and I had to chase her down a gravel road with no shoes on, in my PJ's. Cars everywhere! When I caught her, hitting her was the last thing on my mind. All I could do was hug her and counted my blessings that nothing happened to her. And as for a shock collar. Next time I'm out walking I'll take pics of the huge dog down the road that has burn marks on his neck from a shock collar. The Vet made them take it off because of what it was doing to his neck. I can't even imagine a Chi wearing one of those, much less any dog. I’m sure you are quite tired of everyone’s opinions at this point. But please understand that most of us here do not agree with these types of punishments.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

skwerlylove said:


> Alright. You guys are right. I have realized my error, and I do apologize for upsetting the community.
> 
> I'm not trying to justify the action, and it was wrong.
> 
> ...


I just want to respond and say thank you for admitting your mistake. Most people don't. I admire you for backing down and realizing that hitting your dogs in anger was wrong. I'm sure that we can help you with recall problems in a more positive way. 

There is a lot of knowledge here and many, many helpful people who want nothing more than to help others. I'm glad you understand that your post was upsetting. 

Thank you for apologizing. It takes a lot to admit you were wrong and I respect that.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

jazzman said:


> I've had half a dozen dogs and there isn't a one
> I would trust off lead. The ONLY time they've ever been off lead is in a fenced in area - period


I agree with this, I've never allowed my dogs out with no leash or even a tie out in the yard, Dogs getting hit by cars terrifies me.




flippedstars said:


> The one we found for Laurel is for 6-12 lb dogs. Both hubby and I put it on the bare skin of our necks and hollared to make it shock us. It's startling, but no more so than a good zap from a random shock from touching the outside of your car. Please keep in mind, WE DONT LIKE that this is the solution, but for now it is :-/ We can't really afford to move ATM because of our lease, and our other alternative was to rehome her which isn't going to happen, she's part of the family. The actual "shock" box on it is about the size of 1/3 standard candy bar and weighs only a few ounces. Laurel doesn't like anything at all that suggests she isn't boss and so she yelps, but I don't think it's hurting her, as we tried it out :-/ BUT I would *NEVER* put one on the smaller guys. I think because the problem isn't going to get you evicted from where you live, you should just leash her. That's my opinion. She's your dog.
> 
> A lot of people are going to judge you for what you did and the fact that you chose to tell us, but people make mistakes. I am not going to assume you regularly beat your dogs because you thwaped them once or twice with a corn stalk, no matter how bad I think that is.
> 
> Whether we'd like to admit it or not, I would guess MOST of us here have made a mistake such as yours at one time or another. For those that haven't, that's wonderful and great. But many people have and their dogs are still happy little friends. I dumped a bucket of water on Laurel once (before we got Oakley) because she ran onto the floor I was trying to clean with muddy feet for the 4th or 5th time. Whoops. She yelped and screamed and stayed the heck off of the floor, still almost a year later won't go near it when I'm mopping. Was that the right thing to do, NO! Would I do it again just because it worked? No. Will people think I'm baaaad for doing that...I'm sure. But the reality is most of us make mistakes from time to time and it doesn't mean we should be judged.


Here here! :hello1:
I don't like to get involved in a lot of these threads cause frankly I dislike the judgement & judging people unless I am in their shoes so to speak. 
I really don't think there is anyone who is 100% perfect every minute of ever day, hopefully you move on from all this calmer and wiser.


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## KayC (May 3, 2005)

I am glad this thread got turned around with your apology. Chihuahus are such sensitive little things, acting all tough on the outside but one little hit or smack could really break their spirit. I really hope you have decided agaisnt the shock collar. The only punishment I have ever used with my Zoey is a squirt bottle to curb her barking. I lost my last chi, my sweet Roxy do to not being good at recall and she ran right into the jaws of a coyotte trying to be all tough (in my own yard in bright daylight). So my little Zoey will NEVER be off lead. The members on here have very strong opinions and I think we all learn something everyday.


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

awww  zoey's mom, i'm so sorry.
I agree no off leashing. It truly isn't necessary. Some dogs just can't or shouldn't be off leash. For example: sighthounds. They chase anything and greyhounds are so fast you'd never get them back. I used to have a greyhound and watching them run is a thing of beauty but he never got outside of my fenced in backyard, once he came to live with us. 
Best of Luck to you.


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## skwerlylove (Apr 24, 2010)

Zoey's Mom said:


> I am glad this thread got turned around with your apology. Chihuahus are such sensitive little things, acting all tough on the outside but one little hit or smack could really break their spirit. I really hope you have decided agaisnt the shock collar. The only punishment I have ever used with my Zoey is a squirt bottle to curb her barking. I lost my last chi, my sweet Roxy do to not being good at recall and she ran right into the jaws of a coyotte trying to be all tough (in my own yard in bright daylight). So my little Zoey will NEVER be off lead. The members on here have very strong opinions and I think we all learn something everyday.


I'm so sorry. I can't even imagine witnessing that happen to your baby.  I would be devastated, and yes... they get too big for their britches.

I have decided to continue working with Elliot the way I have been on her lead, and see how it goes from there. She's a toughie because she's not treat oriented like Pip or the other dogs. If I give her a treat, she just likes to hide it. I've even found bits of hot dogs buried in my bed. I gave them their first bully sticks tonight, and she buried hers in my clothes basket while Pippa went to town. I don't know. I honestly want to do what is best for them, without allowing them to get away with not being trained. I think that many times a dog goes untrained because its hard (and it is), but that it ultimately is detrimental to the dog. I'd like Elliot to be able to run around and play with the other three, and not have to be on her lead all the time. Sometimes she is great. She comes right when she is called, and stays in the peramiters we have set for her. Other times.... yeah. Well she just doesn't.


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## Deme (Aug 18, 2009)

Elliot is hiding her treats so she is not hungry hence why she is not treat orientated while being trained.

I had this with Jake, what I did was stop all treats and when he goes for his morning walk I take chicken with me and it is weighed. This amount of food is deducted from his total daily amount.

The difference was a full turn around, I now literally very quietly call Jake and he comes running to me with his full attention and when h edoes come to me I makea huge fuss o fhim and reward him with some chicken. When I give him the chicken I still ask him to wait by me for a few seconds then say "Go Play" at this he does go and play. It teaches him that I am the leader and being with me is the best thing ever.

I took Jake to a show last weekend where there was hoards of people and dogs and on this forum is a picture whare I am tiding myself and Jake is standing there eyes fixed on me. Previously he would have ignored me and wanted to jsut jump up at the people and play with the dogs.

So hard as it is cut her food down and no treats. Mind I say no treats I still give Jake one once or twice a week if he has earned it.

Also hand feed her as much as you can as this helps loads too, you probably know all this already but as I am sure it doesn't hurt to mention it.

I also wish to say that though I was disappointed in reading your first post I never totally disrespected you, instead I understood what you through with your frustrations. It takes a strong person to admit to themselves and others that their actions were not the right ones and to apologise takes a lot. So thank you...

Deme


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Do you have a flexi lead? You can get really really long ones.. i used it for Daisy's recall when she was learning and it worked well.. the get a little bit of freedom but you're still totally in control.. You could also attach a coupler to it so they are both together as its easier to keep an eye on two small dogs next to each other than far away from each other.

Dogs will be dogs and if they get a scent or see something they run and they chase.. Daisy has a thing for birds and squirrals but i'm lucky enough that she comes back when i call her.. if she thinks about it my body language changes and its the uhoh mummy is pissed off with me and comes running back and kisses me.

Pippa is still very new so building that bond for her to think that you are her entire world takes time.. Elliot you could work with a bit more.. spend a lot more time playing or doing tricks so its all about you all the time!!


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

flexi lead..... :hello1: That's what I was thinking too. Sounds like a great idea.


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## Tanna (Jan 29, 2009)

It sounds like you are moving in the right direction. I appreciate your apology and I hope that you and Elliot can work this out so both of you can be happy and content with one another.


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

What I would suggest is the use of a tie-out. Around here they make ones which are basically just soft rope rather than the plastic/wirey type... You can either tie the base to something near your front door or use the kind that you 'screw' into the ground. It'll let you offer quite a bit of freedom and you can "walk" it around the yard first to make sure where her boundaries are.
I'd never use a tie out unattended as they could always get tangled up, but its a convenient alternative to just opening the door and letting them run out.. you just hook it to their collar or harness first. As long as you're still supervising them, it gives them the 'freedom' to roam but also limits them too. =)


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