# Questions about diet and Ziwipeak. Gemma has new diet rules.



## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

Hey, ladies! It's been a while. I wish I were here on better circumstances, but Gemma has developed some pretty bad skin issues lately.

We took her to a skin specialist this week and they said it appeared likely to be allergies either to food or to the environment. She's always been on a diet of various Acana kibble for breakfast and fresh raw for dinners. For those of you who remember, Gemma has had on and off itching problems since she was a puppy. It's only now that they've become severe enough that it's making a noticeable appearance in her skin.

The vet took a skin scraping to test for fungal infection, fur samples for mites, and blood for testing of environmental allergen causes. The fur test came back negative for mites and we'll have the results for the fungal/allergen tests in 3-4 weeks, but in the meanwhile, she's been assigned a strict moose/reindeer (I'm not sure if reindeer in Swedish basically means venison) meat and boiled rice diet.

However, I'm concerned she won't be getting proper nutrition from the meat and rice alone. I remember Ziwipeak has a venison flavor. I was wondering if there's anything else in it that could cause an allergic response or if anyone has had success/problems with feeding it to their allergy sensitive fur babies. Or is there something I could add to her meat/rice diet to make up for the lack of nutrients?

We are stressed out of our minds right now with not knowing what is wrong with her and the bills associated with it all. Really hope these tests or the diet changes give us some answers.  I hate seeing my poor baby uncomfortable.

Edit: Just did the math and dry Ziwipeak is nearly double the expense per month versus me preparing fresh moose and rice, but I still need something to add to moose and rice to make it a balanced diet. I also tried to feed Gemma dry Ziwipeak as a puppy, and she refused to eat it. She only liked the wet, which is way, way too expensive for us to feed daily.


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## woodard2009 (Aug 4, 2010)

I feed Stella & Chewy's Abosuletly Rabbit, Primal Duck and ZP Beef. Most dogs are not allergic to beef unless it's not organic. Rabbit and duck are off the beaten path. Coconut oil help ease the itchies quite a bit and is also has antifungal properties. By keeping the skin rubbed down, gives the skin a chance to heal. Bendryl also helps when the itching is unbearable. I do understand that these foods are expensive. I also buy discounted raw meat at my local grocery store. I feed the cubed up meat for breakfast and for the supper feeding, I feed either the duck or rabbit topped with a few squares of the ZP. Huly posted an article on here a while back explaining how certain foods react in the dogs body whether its food or environmental-allergy related. It's 100% accurate and has helped me get to the comfort point where at now. You will have to keep life simple for you and your pet from this point on. No more air freshner sprays in the house, very limited snacks. Find a dog shampoo that has simple ingrediants, etc.
I would avoid Venison and go with rabbit or duck as if I remember correctly, Venison was considered a warm food that helps inflame an irritated allergic dog. I had to stop giving it to Midgie and couldn't believe it was one of the factors that drove her crazy.


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## jan896 (Dec 9, 2009)

OMG.... GEMMA!!!







so glad to see you back here.... just wish under better circumstances....


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

woodard2009 said:


> I feed Stella & Chewy's Abosuletly Rabbit, Primal Duck and ZP Beef. Most dogs are not allergic to beef unless it's not organic. Rabbit and duck are off the beaten path. Coconut oil help ease the itchies quite a bit and is also has antifungal properties. By keeping the skin rubbed down, gives the skin a chance to heal. Bendryl also helps when the itching is unbearable. I do understand that these foods are expensive. I also buy discounted raw meat at my local grocery store. I feed the cubed up meat for breakfast and for the supper feeding, I feed either the duck or rabbit topped with a few squares of the ZP. Huly posted an article on here a while back explaining how certain foods react in the dogs body whether its food or environmental-allergy related. It's 100% accurate and has helped me get to the comfort point where at now. You will have to keep life simple for you and your pet from this point on. No more air freshner sprays in the house, very limited snacks. Find a dog shampoo that has simple ingrediants, etc.
> I would avoid Venison and go with rabbit or duck as if I remember correctly, Venison was considered a warm food that helps inflame an irritated allergic dog. I had to stop giving it to Midgie and couldn't believe it was one of the factors that drove her crazy.


I looked into Stella and Chewy's before but couldn't find any suppliers in Sweden. That's very interesting about venison. I have no idea if moose counts as venison.  Probably yes? Coconut oil seems to be a popular holistic remedy. Is it applied directly to the skin or added to food? I will try to find the article Huly posted. Sounds like it will be very helpful. Thanks for all the tips! :cheers:



jan896 said:


> OMG.... GEMMA!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Jan! :love5: I'll have to charge my camera and take a picture of her for you guys!


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

Yeah I got excited hoping for a photo but no luck! 

What about this?
Stella & Chewy's - Simply Venison Freeze-Dried Dinner

Also we are a huge Primal fan but they do not make a venison. I wonder if it is something in the kibble causing it? Could you go all raw?


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## woodard2009 (Aug 4, 2010)

You could give a little coconut oil on your finger for her to lick off, but when the skin is irritated, I just rub them down good and it's ok when they lick it off their fur as they will. You don't want to feed too much as it could lead to diarrhea. Allergies are a bite in the butt, because it's very difficult to pinpoint what is causing the discomfort. Not sure if Moose is considered Venison or not, but Huly's article explains about what foods are considered cool foods that help keep inflammation down in the body so the itching doesn't seem as severe. Doesn't necessarily mean the animal is allergic to the warm or hot foods like Venison, it just means the warm and/or hot foods don't help any inflammation in the body that's being caused by the allergic reaction. I see Huly's here and maybe she can repost that awesome article. I wish she'd sticky it as I find it a very valuable resource for all those suffering with pet allergies and wondering what are the right foods to feed and what to avoid.

TBH-I would avoid Venison for the time-being until your pup gets some relief and stick with beef if duck or rabbit aren't available. ZP makes freeze-dried beef and Gemma would be getting a complete diet. I truly believe (as I have always believe this) that the majority of allergies are "Environmental", but the foods we feed exasperate the allergic reaction causing us to think that the foods we feed are the culprit. We are in a time where we can't trust none of the companies and have to learn how to read the ingrediants. Even when we find a great food like ZP, we still have to glance at the ingrediants once and a while as they are constantly changing the ingrediants on us.


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

Huly said:


> Yeah I got excited hoping for a photo but no luck!
> 
> What about this?
> Stella & Chewy's - Simply Venison Freeze-Dried Dinner
> ...


A photo will be on its way.  While I would like to go all raw, I have no idea how to find the organ and bone necessary for a purely raw diet here in Sweden. I've never seen more than chicken/beef liver in our grocery stores, neither of which I'm supposed to be feeding her now.



woodard2009 said:


> You could give a little coconut oil on your finger for her to lick off, but when the skin is irritated, I just rub them down good and it's ok when they lick it off their fur as they will. You don't want to feed too much as it could lead to diarrhea. Allergies are a bite in the butt, because it's very difficult to pinpoint what is causing the discomfort. Not sure if Moose is considered Venison or not, but Huly's article explains about what foods are considered cool foods that help keep inflammation down in the body so the itching doesn't seem as severe. Doesn't necessarily mean the animal is allergic to the warm or hot foods like Venison, it just means the warm and/or hot foods don't help any inflammation in the body that's being caused by the allergic reaction. I see Huly's here and maybe she can repost that awesome article. I wish she'd sticky it as I find it a very valuable resource for all those suffering with pet allergies and wondering what are the right foods to feed and what to avoid.
> 
> TBH-I would avoid Venison for the time-being until your pup gets some relief and stick with beef if duck or rabbit aren't available. ZP makes freeze-dried beef and Gemma would be getting a complete diet. I truly believe (as I have always believe this) that the majority of allergies are "Environmental", but the foods we feed exasperate the allergic reaction causing us to think that the foods we feed are the culprit. We are in a time where we can't trust none of the companies and have to learn how to read the ingrediants. Even when we find a great food like ZP, we still have to glance at the ingrediants once and a while as they are constantly changing the ingrediants on us.


Ah, okay. After some digging I did find the article. It's definitely something to think about and brings up some very interesting points. She's been eating mostly Acana lamb and raw beef or lamb, so that's a lot from the hot section! I would prefer to stick with the vet's assignment of moose/reindeer (which does count as venison) for the following month while we wait for the test results to see if it makes any difference, but if not then I will be eager to discuss this approach with her, or rather, have my SO attempt to translate this discussion with her. She didn't say anything about duck/rabbit being against "the rules," however. It's something we can ask about when we get in contact with her. She's only in our clinic once a week so my SO has to call the clinic and ask if they have her email or personal contact information to get in contact sooner.


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## elaina (Jul 1, 2008)

hi Caitlin ! its so nice to see you here again. I had wondered where you went.... sorry to here that Gemma has itchy skin problems. :-(. 

I think I did read an article similar to what Lisa is talking about and also found it very helpful, and I am pretty sure it was posted by Jesuschick ( maybe it is different, i'll have to try to find the one posted by Huly too )


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

LittleGemma said:


> A photo will be on its way.  While I would like to go all raw, I have no idea how to find the organ and bone necessary for a purely raw diet here in Sweden. I've never seen more than chicken/beef liver in our grocery stores, neither of which I'm supposed to be feeding her now.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, okay. After some digging I did find the article. It's definitely something to think about and brings up some very interesting points. She's been eating mostly Acana lamb and raw beef or lamb, so that's a lot from the hot section! I would prefer to stick with the vet's assignment of moose/reindeer (which does count as venison) for the following month while we wait for the test results to see if it makes any difference, but if not then I will be eager to discuss this approach with her, or rather, have my SO attempt to translate this discussion with her. She didn't say anything about duck/rabbit being against "the rules," however. It's something we can ask about when we get in contact with her. She's only in our clinic once a week so my SO has to call the clinic and ask if they have her email or personal contact information to get in contact sooner.


My two REFUSE to eat raw organs that is why I do a freeze dried (Primal or S&C) that has everything in it for breakfast and I will get pre mixed raw (Oma's Pride, S&C, Primal) (pre mix they will only eat birds Chicken, Turkey, Pheasant, Duck etc) or from a butcher (beef venison etc) for dinner. That way they still get the needed organ in the freeze dried yet the benefit of raw too.


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## woodard2009 (Aug 4, 2010)

The one thing I found with vets and allergies is they want to go to a protein that the animal does not normally eat and it always seems to be LAmb I guess because it's more readily available then say, kangeroo. I refused to believe that the lamb was doing any harm for a few years but could not figure out why I couldn't seem to find any relief for Midgie. It wasn't until I took her off the lamb that the relief started. My point is, that if you are relying on vet's professional decisions, you will find that this prolongs the animals agony. You, as the mommy, knows what's best for Gemma and has first hand knowledge of what Gemma tolerates well and what she does not. The vet isn't there with you on a daily basis to see what triggers and what doesn't. Blood test may be accurated today for what triggers Gemma, but tomorrow those triggers could have changed, so IMO I wouldn't bother wasting money on blood test for allergies. Immunotherapy does not work either and they'll tell you that only 5% of animal have successful results, but we don't actually know if that's from the shots. Huly always post some excellent articles when it comes to allergies that I copy them and refer to them often if I need to.


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## elaina (Jul 1, 2008)

this was the thread that Jesuschick posted that had info on warm and cool protiens . I had never heard of this before and found it very interesting and helpful 

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chi...-those-who-have-babies-sensitive-tummies.html


Christie also posts excellent info all the time !!!


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## woodard2009 (Aug 4, 2010)

No, the article Christie posted came from a magazines and goes into great detail about every protein and how it affects the body where allergies are concerned. I hope Christie remembers which article I'm talking about and can find her post. I'll look again.


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## elaina (Jul 1, 2008)

oh, ok...I never read that one. i'd love to read it !


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## woodard2009 (Aug 4, 2010)

ok here it is
http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chi...m-helping-allergies-dogs-food-energetics.html

Please stickie this as this is very helpful with more and more chis having allergy problems. Make sure you copy this and keep it at hand.


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

elaina said:


> hi Caitlin ! its so nice to see you here again. I had wondered where you went.... sorry to here that Gemma has itchy skin problems. :-(.
> 
> I think I did read an article similar to what Lisa is talking about and also found it very helpful, and I am pretty sure it was posted by Jesuschick ( maybe it is different, i'll have to try to find the one posted by Huly too )


Hey, Elaine! :daisy:
Here is the article posted by Huly:
Helping Allergies In Dogs With Food Energetics | Dogs Naturally Magazine



Huly said:


> My two REFUSE to eat raw organs that is why I do a freeze dried (Primal or S&C) that has everything in it for breakfast and I will get pre mixed raw (Oma's Pride, S&C, Primal) (pre mix they will only eat birds Chicken, Turkey, Pheasant, Duck etc) or from a butcher (beef venison etc) for dinner. That way they still get the needed organ in the freeze dried yet the benefit of raw too.


That is what I would like to do, since it's basically what I've been doing with the Acana in the morning and raw at night. I just need a premade raw food I can find here in Sweden with very minimal ingredients. The only brand I know of is Ziwipeak, but she would never eat the dried stuff when I tried, and I'm not sure we can afford the wet. I have to discuss it with my SO when he gets home tonight. Maybe she'd eat dry ZP mixed with a little wet or something else.



woodard2009 said:


> The one thing I found with vets and allergies is they want to go to a protein that the animal does not normally eat and it always seems to be LAmb I guess because it's more readily available then say, kangeroo. I refused to believe that the lamb was doing any harm for a few years but could not figure out why I couldn't seem to find any relief for Midgie. It wasn't until I took her off the lamb that the relief started. My point is, that if you are relying on vet's professional decisions, you will find that this prolongs the animals agony. You, as the mommy, knows what's best for Gemma and has first hand knowledge of what Gemma tolerates well and what she does not. The vet isn't there with you on a daily basis to see what triggers and what doesn't. Blood test may be accurated today for what triggers Gemma, but tomorrow those triggers could have changed, so IMO I wouldn't bother wasting money on blood test for allergies. Immunotherapy does not work either and they'll tell you that only 5% of animal have successful results, but we don't actually know if that's from the shots. Huly always post some excellent articles when it comes to allergies that I copy them and refer to them often if I need to.


I'm the one who has been feeding her lamb all her life and the vet is actually telling me not to feed it to her, but instead replacing it with venison which doesn't seem to be an upgrade from that article. But venison is a protein she has never had before, while she has had a lot of beef and lamb. She's even had a bit of duck from the chews we give her as treats. From what I've researched, over feeding any protein for long periods of time can cause the development of an allergy to that protein. So maybe this has happened to her with lamb and/or beef. I think that's the approach the vet is trying to take on this. It seems to me that I've been keeping her on the same proteins for way too long and this could be the reason why these allergy symptoms are showing up all of a sudden. In that case, I shouldn't be keeping her on any 1 or 2 proteins for long periods of time, but instead rotating a few that don't seem to have negative affects on her. No idea where I can find raw duck, rabbit, quail, etc here, though.

And are the success rates for immunotherapy really that low? I guess it doesn't hurt to know if there is something in the environment that she's allergic to, but it just cost us a fortune that we didn't have for the blood tests. And it's going to cost another fortune for the vaccines.


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

Can you get Primal or Stella & Chewy? You could crumble it and add water.


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

Huly said:


> Can you get Primal or Stella & Chewy? You could crumble it and add water.


Pretty sure Stella and Chewy is a no. I searched for it before. Haven't ever looked for Primal. I will google it and check the pet stores I know of online.


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## woodard2009 (Aug 4, 2010)

Yes, the percentage is really that low and knowing up front they were that low, I paid all that money and put Midgie throug H*** for too long with no improvement. I finally got smart and quit (couldn't bare all the ouchies and the shots were making her extremely miserable. That's the point when I said no more vets and took matter into my own hands with lots of research and help from this forum.


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

woodard2009 said:


> Yes, the percentage is really that low and knowing up front they were that low, I paid all that money and put Midgie throug H*** for too long with no improvement. I finally got smart and quit (couldn't bare all the ouchies and the shots were making her extremely miserable. That's the point when I said no more vets and took matter into my own hands with lots of research and help from this forum.


Thank you so much for all your advice and personal experience. I always try to keep everything for myself and Gemma as holistic as possible, I've just been in full panic mode with this sudden outbreak of skin issues. She started getting flaky skin and losing clumps of fur on her back and I just rushed her to the vet seeking answers, but I don't want to put her through tons of tests and medications.


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

woodard2009 said:


> ok here it is
> http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chi...m-helping-allergies-dogs-food-energetics.html
> 
> Please stickie this as this is very helpful with more and more chis having allergy problems. Make sure you copy this and keep it at hand.


It's been stickied now


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

I can't seem to find Primal here in Sweden. Seems to be limited to USA and Canada, like all the good stuff.


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## woodard2009 (Aug 4, 2010)

LittleGemma said:


> Thank you so much for all your advice and personal experience. I always try to keep everything for myself and Gemma as holistic as possible, I've just been in full panic mode with this sudden outbreak of skin issues. She started getting flaky skin and losing clumps of fur on her back and I just rushed her to the vet seeking answers, but I don't want to put her through tons of tests and medications.


Aw, you're welcome. I just don't want to see another pup go thru what I put my Midgie thru. I hope she get some relief soon. Just keep us updated of her progress. Something else you can try to rule out a fungal infection is to mix 1 gallon water with 1 cup distilled white vinegar and wipe the skin down with a wash rag. After it's dry you can moisturized the skin with the coconut oil. You can repeat this process as many times throughout the day as you think needed.


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

What about Orijen Freeze dried?


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

Huly said:


> What about Orijen Freeze dried?


Actually yes, I was able to find this. I didn't know they made a freeze dried product. There's one flavor that would be suitable for her to try, but it does contain a lot of different proteins. Any idea how many pieces come in one of the 170g bags?


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

Actually I found the answer myself. Seems to be around 12. Works out to be around the same price monthly as dried ZP so that's not too bad. They might even have it at the local pet shop here because I know they carry Orijen products.


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

Why don't you email them and ask if they send out samples,to see if she'll eat themI know a lot of people on here did for ZP and got loads of them.Worth a try


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

Awesome! Ask the local place about comparisons and see what you can find


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

michele said:


> Why don't you email them and ask if they send out samples,to see if she'll eat themI know a lot of people on here did for ZP and got loads of them.Worth a try


Great idea. Just went ahead and mailed ZP for that. Hopefully they will send us some!



Huly said:


> Awesome! Ask the local place about comparisons and see what you can find


Thanks again! Yeah, maybe they'll know of other similar brands we can find locally, preferably something with single protein flavors.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Hi Catlin, lovely to see you back. I'm sorry dear Gemma isn't doing so well. 
Are you sure you can't find enough fresh meats to go fully raw? Just 4 regular protein sources would be enough, plus some fish and eggs. Many dogs with allergies do fine on far less variety than this. I hope you see in an improvement in her soon.
Can't wait to see pics, I have missed her little face.


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## Jayda (Jun 15, 2012)

LittleGemma said:


> I looked into Stella and Chewy's before but couldn't find any suppliers in Sweden. That's very interesting about venison. I have no idea if moose counts as venison.  Probably yes? Coconut oil seems to be a popular holistic remedy. Is it applied directly to the skin or added to food? I will try to find the article Huly posted. Sounds like it will be very helpful. Thanks for all the tips! :cheers:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Jan! :love5: I'll have to charge my camera and take a picture of her for you guys!



Also very glad to hear from you. I hope Gemma improves. Not sure what to suggest but could you supplement with a vitamin supplement made for dogs?


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> Hi Catlin, lovely to see you back. I'm sorry dear Gemma isn't doing so well.
> Are you sure you can't find enough fresh meats to go fully raw? Just 4 regular protein sources would be enough, plus some fish and eggs. Many dogs with allergies do fine on far less variety than this. I hope you see in an improvement in her soon.
> Can't wait to see pics, I have missed her little face.


Hi, Stella! I'm not sure. If she has to stay off all the proteins she's had in the past, like chicken, lamb, beef, and pork, I'm not sure where I will be able to find the less common ones like duck and rabbit. The biggest issue is that I can't find much for organ here. I would definitely prefer going all raw since it gives me total control of what she eats and it's most affordable for us, I just want to make sure she'll be getting a rounded diet.



Jayda said:


> Also very glad to hear from you. I hope Gemma improves. Not sure what to suggest but could you supplement with a vitamin supplement made for dogs?


Hey, Jayda! That's what I was wondering. Or are supplements like that not effectively absorbed?


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## Megsavs (Feb 15, 2014)

Hello, it is so very important that you either feed raw or kibble but not both. They digest very very differently.


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

How is Gemma doing?


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