# Pepe is sick :-( . . . . or a chicken bone stuck?



## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

I gave Pepe chicken last night and a chicken leg bone. I gave the same to Gracie.

This morning around 3:00ish Pepe had to go outside so he woke me up. He peed and pooped. I didn't see if the poop was diarrhea or not.

This morning after giving more chicken for breakfast Pepe threw up the majority of her food. And she kept on throwing up. She finally was having dry heaves with some foam coming out her mouth.

Now she is resting on my lap.

I hope to God he didn't get a bone stuck in him. I can ill afford the costs of a major operation for him.

He usually scarfs down treats but would only eat half his little heart shaped treat about an hour ago.

What would you do if you were me?


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

Hmm... I would really keep an eye on it. Did she throw up immediately after eating? Is she still refusing to eat treats? Vomiting after eating and refusing food can be symptoms of a blockage, but it could also just be an upset tummy. Is she acting like she is in pain?

If she starts to act lethargic or painful I would get her to the vet ASAP.


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

He doesn't seem to be in any pain. He threw up right after eating his chicken this morning but did not throw up last night after eating the chicken and bone.

I just gave him about a 1/4 cup of good milk. I'll see if he keeps it down.

P.S. I am so used to having only female dogs I still accidentally call him a "she.":tard:


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

Oops, sorry I didn't realize it was a he: .

How old is he? I would withhold food for a while. Feeding while they have an upset stomach can make it worse. Allow him access to water but no food for now.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Milk probably would not be a good thing to give him while his stomach is unwell.
If he's vomiting or has the runs for an extended period I would offer some electrolytes like pedialyte or whatever you have available there and take him to the vet, was he eating raw or cooked bones?


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

He was eating raw chicken and raw bone.

He is 6 months old now.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

I would personally watch him very closely if there is no improvement definitely take him to the vet and tell them what he ate and see if they feel it might be related


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## Dragonfly (Jun 6, 2010)

Aw bless his little heart. Poor Pepe! I'll keep him in my thoughts & prayers that it's nothing huge! Hopefully he'll feel better soon, if not, like the above posts say just keep an eye on him and see how he's doing. Keep us updated ok hon?


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

By the way, I forgot to mention that they both had a small ball of raw hamburger the day before and Pepe got diarrhea from that. So maybe it is the hamburger?

Both dogs have had trouble with hamburder. SO I guess I just don't give any to them again. I got it organically grown at the health food store.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

I wouldn't give hamburger. Burgers are notorious for carrying a high bacterial load, just because it's ground and has lots of surface area. Usually dogs can handle bacteria just fine, no problems. But with a new-to-raw dog, I just wouldn't chance giving ground meats. 

I would make sure Pepe is drinking water and not feed again until later tonight. Then I'd give just an ounce or so of plain chicken meat. If he does OK through the night, then you can start back up a little at a time on the chicken tomorrow.

But I bet it was the hamburger. 

Sorry, I hope he's feeling better soon.


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your good help. One more thing: This morning my boss said it looks like Pepe isn't getting enough to eat because his ribs are showing.

Is this normal for a chihuahua's ribs to show? or should I give Pepe three feeding of raw a day until he gets more meat on his bones?

He is 6 months old.
Weighs 4lbs. 1oz or so (it fluctuates).
I feed him 2 ounces meat in A.M. and 2 ounces meat P.M. He always seems hungry.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

His vomiting cleared up I take it? Good. 

His ribs shouldn't show when he's just standing there. You should be able to feel them if you press. Sounds like he's too lean. Yes, add in another meal. 3 meals of 2 ounces each sounds like a great starting place. Or if you prefer, you can just add an ounce onto his regular two meals. Whatever works for you. If you don't see him bulking up a bit, then add in a bit more.


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

Pepe still has diahhreah. It is possible it is from Meijer's brand chicken legs after switching from Whole Foods organic ones? I started freeding the Meijer's brand on Sunday evening.

I got some turkey legs from Krogers and cut the meat off the bone, very lightly boil it and give it to the dogs to see if this will help.

This morning Pepe woke me up around 5ish. He went out and peed and pooped. While walking him around the block about 6:30 he pooped about three times a little at a time and all runny.

He pooped at lunch and just a little while ago. This is so unusual for him to poop so much. I'd rather try to clear it up than pay alot at the vet. He still eats really well.

I just started feeding him three times a day.

I wouldn't think going from chicken to Turkey would keep giving diahreah though.

My other dog Gracie hasn't had any runny bowels.

Pepe has been playful and runs around with Gracie. Sure wish I knew what to do.


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

Don't cook the bones! That can make the bone splinter. Have you checked the sodium levels in the chicken you are buying? That can cause loose stools as well.


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

In an online article I just read it said if your dog is less than a year old and has diahhreah you should immediately take him to the vet as he may have parvovirus. Could he get this from raw meat?

"*Intestinal* - This virus causes extreme damage to the intestinal tract, causing sloughing of the cells that line the tract. This can leave the patient open to secondary bacterial infection. Most of the affected dogs (85%) are less than one year old and between 6-20 weeks old -- before the full set of vaccinations can be given. The death rate from infection is reported to be 16-35% in this age group." 

The intestinal signs include:
•Lethargy 
•Vomiting 
•Loss of appetite 
•Diarrhea - usually bloody, and very foul-smelling (a characteristic odor, particular to Parvovirus infection)
•Intussusception - when a section of the inflamed intestinal tract telescopes into itself. This is an emergency.
•Fever

Well, he doesn't have Lethargy or Loss of appetite and no blood and no fever.
Parvo Questions - Parvovirus (Parvo) Infection in Dogs


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

missy_r said:


> Don't cook the bones! That can make the bone splinter. Have you checked the sodium levels in the chicken you are buying? That can cause loose stools as well.


I never give cooked bones. I take the meat off the bones and very lightly boil the MEAT.

The package doesn't say the turkey legs or chicken legs have sodium or broth or injected water broth.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

No, you can't get parvo from meat. It's passed to dogs from feces that are infected with the virus. 

Maybe step up the bone a bit. Can you get some unenhanced chicken wings? Sodium less than 100mg per 4 ounce serving. Or let him gnaw on the end of a chicken thigh or drumstick and get some extra bone in his meals. I wouldn't overfeed as that can cause loose stools (I know you said he was looking thin though). 

Also, cut off all the fat and skin until his poops are normal again. That can also cause loose stools in some dogs. 

You could also try a tablespoon of a stool binder such as pumpkin. NOT the pie filling. Just plain old canned pumpkin. Some raw purists would frown on that, but I wouldn't like diarrhea either and would want it cleared up.


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

TonyN said:


> I never give cooked bones. I take the meat off the bones and very lightly boil the MEAT.
> 
> The package doesn't say the turkey legs or chicken legs have sodium or broth or injected water broth.



Oh, I misunderstood, sorry. I thought you meant you were boiling the bones.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

I'm no expert but you cannot get Parvo from feeding a raw diet.
However it sounds like something is askew here Tony.
Could you put your little dog on a high grade kibble for a few days to see if this helps him feel better/clears up the digestive issues?

Just a thought....


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

Took Pepe to the vet this morning. Last night he kept getting me up to go out. He had diarrhea again last night with blood in it.

X-ray taken to rule out bone stuck in intestine. No bone.

He was dehydrated a little so gave some water under the skin.

He has an infection so we gave some anti-biotics. 

Hopefully what ever is getting the dog sick will go away and we can get our lives back to normal (whatever that is LOL).


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Sorry he's ill.  I hope he's feeling better soon, poor little guy.


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

Thanks Brodysmom!
BTW, the vet told me he may be getting too much protein for a chihuahua being on only meat.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

TonyN said:


> Thanks Brodysmom!
> BTW, the vet told me he may be getting too much protein for a chihuahua being on only meat.


That's a pretty common myth. That high protein is bad for dogs. It depends on the source and type of protein. Soy has a LOT of protein, for example, but we all know that's bad for dogs. Yet high protein dog foods contain a lot of substandard ingredients. Many of the science diet dog foods are full of wheat, corn, and soy as their main ingredients and vets recommend them every day.

Meat is mostly water. On the USDA site, chicken is about 18% protein. Beef is about 21%, depending on the cut. That's a LOT less protein than is found in most dry dog foods. 

You can do a little reading on protein in dog foods and decide for yourself. Here's a few links to start with ....

The Dog Food Project - Is too much protein harmful?

Myths About Raw: Do dogs really need carbohydrates?

The Many Myths of Raw Feeding


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## KayC (May 3, 2005)

Awww poor Pepe I am sorry, I hope now that he is on the antibiotic he can start to heal and get better. (((HUGS)))


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

Thanks for the info and links Brodysmom. I've checked the links and it looks good.

I just wish I had more sources for more organ meats. The main stores don't seem to want to mess with them. Whole Foods or Trader Joe's doesn't carry much except chicken liver or giblets. Do you know of a source?


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

I get liver and kidney at Walmart. (Both in KS and in WA). Maybe you could check with other raw feeders in your area and see where they get their meats/organs? There's a yahoo group called the carnivore suppliers list and there are also co-ops that can get lots of variety as well.


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

After giving Pepe antibiotics yesterday morning the diarrhea stopped. He and I slept through the night and in the morning he had a good solid turd.

Do you think maybe because he gulps his food that he might have, while chewing on a bone bit off too much and swallowed some large bone pieces which might have scraped his insides causing an infection?

If so, should I just limit him to the smaller chicken hen? I forget what it is called.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

It's possible. I do like and recommend cornish hens just because they are young chickens and they have softer, easier bones for beginner dogs/pups. 

Usually loose stools are caused by one of these ....

1. Too much variety too soon.
2. Overfeeding.
3. Too much fat/skin.
4. Not enough bone.

Now that you have him stabilized, keep doing what you are doing!  There is a learning curve with raw. There is some adjustment involved.

Also.... just to differentiate..... there's a difference between diarrhea and loose stools. Diarrhea is explosive, watery, hard to control, frequent. Loose stools are just a softer stool. I don't worry about loose stools. They reflect what has been fed. (Like people!) So if later on you fed an egg, or some organs, for example - you might see looser stools. As long as it's just a soft stool and not diarrhea, I don't worry. You will become an expert poop watcher.  

See a looser stool? Add more bone in with the next meal. See a very small whitish crumbly stool? Feed more meat next time. You will learn your dog and how much bone he requires as time goes on.


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

I often buy the cornish hens frozen at Meijer. I wonder if they have been soaked in a salt brine? I guess I'll have to contact the manufacturer if listed on the package.

Thanks so much for your great information Brodysmom.

How long have you been feeding your dog(s) raw and do you ever feed Brody anything like raw tripe or any carbohydrates?


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

HI Tony - I started Brody on raw when he was 4 months old. He's a couple months over 3 years old now. 

I definitely love to feed variety and Brody LOVES raw tripe. It's hard to find though. I bought some from https://www.hare-today.com/ and he was really sorry when it was done! The shipping killed me since it came frozen from PA but they are a great company. They have a variety of whole prey grinds which are fantastic and good for variety. I have also heard good things about My Pet Carnivore | Raw dog, cat, and pet food including: tripe, beef, bones, chicken, duck, rabbit, turkey

Always read the labels on the food you buy. If the sodium is less than 100mg per serving (4 ounces) then it hasn't been enhanced. 

I very occasionally give Brody carbs. Usually in the form of veggies from our plate. Once in a great while he'll get a dog biscuit, but he's not a fan. He likes dehydrated meat treats a LOT better. Several months ago he went crazy for cooked brocolli we were having for dinner. I gave him a tiny piece. He danced around so I gave him another little piece. Bad mistake that we both paid for as he had diarrhea the next day and horrible gas! Now if he begs, I just take a little sliver of meat or one of his regular meat snacks and give him that. Keeps tummy upsets to a minimum.


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

I found some tripe at Meijer yesterday.
I fed a little bit of lamb to Gracie along with a little turkey leg meat. She threw it all up but ate the turkey again and wouldn't touch the lamb.

I wonder if I am going to be able to only feed chicken and turkey to Gracie? Pepe is so different. She'd eat rocks if I gave them to her I'm sure.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Tripe at grocery stores is for humans only, it has been bleached. It's pretty worthless to dogs although it can still be fed. You can only buy green tripe (the unbleached, unprocessed kind) through a dog food supplier or a wholesaler.

I would stick with ONE protein source at a time though. Just pick one, either turkey or lamb or whatever you choose and feed one bite along with chicken. 

And no, Gracie will need red meat in her diet eventually. You may have to work up to it one bite at a time, but she will have to have it. A diet of poultry only isn't sufficient.


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## TonyN (Sep 27, 2011)

By red meat do you mean beef, buffalo, lamb, and pork?


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

TonyN said:


> By red meat do you mean beef, buffalo, lamb, and pork?


yes! Red meats have a different (better) nutrient profile than birds so try and make the majority of your meats red meats if you can as time goes on. 

I use cornish hens mainly for bone content and then fill in the rest with red meats. A few bites of organ on the weekend and we are good to go.


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## bayoumah (Nov 30, 2010)

Hi hope little pepe is all better by now they sure do scare us luckily these little guys are pretty sturdy when it comes to good health


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## Lisajazzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Oh wow I didn't know dogs need the red meats as my chi is so unwell after them.

What's venison classed as? She seems to be able to eat that fine.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

venison is a red meat (it it has 4 legs, it is red meat). Venison is actually one of the BEST meats you could possibly feed as it has no growth hormones, antibiotics, and has been grass fed. You can't get more organic than that!


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## Lisajazzi (Oct 27, 2010)

Yay excellent news i've found one she can eat!


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