# deer headed and apple headed....



## Wodjeka (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't want to offend anyone...but I like to know how other people think about this...
I see a lot of people on the internet saying they have a deer headed chihuahua.

Personally... I think a deerheaded chi doesn't exist, that deerheaded is a fantasy name...designed to sell chi and chi mix pups with no typical chi head. I also think that most of them are crossbreds, or poorly bred.. 
I say this because most of the "deerheaded" chi's I personally know don't have a pedigree and don't come from registered breeders.
Also a good breeder would choose the parents wisely, so the chance the pups match the breed standard is really big.

The breed standard only recognizes the "applehead" chi.
And a longer, deerheaded type is a serious fault.
So there are no deer headed and apple headed chi's.... there are only chi's....
and there is only 1 true type.
A deerheaded chi would just be a chi with a longer muzzle...


What do you think??


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Uh oh... :lol: last time there was a thread like this it got out of hand ha ha.

I personally don't care either way, They are all Chihuahuas to me.

People like what they like, there is no right and wrong just because kennel clubs set a described standard as to what is currently deemed "en vogue" in a show ring, the standard & its interpretation has changed vastly over the years.

At the end of the day you have to buy the kind of dog that has an appearance you like and you need to ensure that it comes from healthy stock the rest is semantics.
I'm so over all the other politics, I have Chihuahuas that have been bred to the current standard and honestly? 80% of the people we encounter in the general population never know they are Chihuahuas, that says something.

I spend more time than I would like (honestly lol) explaining that yes some Chihuahuas look like this, is it a great thing? not sure.. all I know is that my dogs have extremely short muzzles which causes serious teeth ailments and breathing problems for some of them, something I never witnessed in my deer headed Chi.


Honestly there is no right or wrong answer here rather it's more like a double edged sword.

Anyhow.


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## theshanman97 (Feb 19, 2012)

so ok let me understand this , are you saying that so called "deer heads" are badly bred dogs? if you are thats TOTALLY wrong! and you have offended ALOT of people on here who have deer heads!


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## Blondie87 (Jan 10, 2011)

I think the same way. I don't think my girls are mixed at all (but you never really know), but I do think they have always been badly bred, through their whole line. I do think that deer heads are a fault in the breed. When a good breeder breeds a breed, they strive to match the breed standard, and better the breed. Deer heads are not the breed standard. I can say that having 2 deer heads. I am not offended at all, cuz after getting my girls, I have done a lot of research (I know I should have done my research before) and I see now they are no where near the breed standard, therefore, badly bred.


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## theshanman97 (Feb 19, 2012)

I am actually disgusting because you have quiet obvoisly done this to cause attention to your self and cause a argument!


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Wodjeka - I believe you are 100% correct. I know many people disagree with the term deer headed chi's just like others disagree with the term teacup. It's a way to describe the dog. Perhaps a way to rationalize why the dog has such a long sloped head and long muzzle, or why its so small? (although teacup is usually a coveted term and deer headed not so much.)

If people don't care what the standard says, that's fine. Their perogative. But the standard exists as a blueprint to the breed and if everyone disregarded it, we would have massive 15 pound dogs in no time that don't look anything like a chi. (I have nothing against 15 pound chihuahuas by the way, just that they are not bred to the standard.)

People that are breeding deer headed chi's with no regard to health or temperament are the real problem. They usually have NO idea what a chi should really look like. Thus, they think their dogs are worthy of being bred. That is where I have a problem. Especially when they tout their dogs as being DEER HEADS like it is something to be proud of. 

No dog fits the standard perfectly. But there are dogs that look like chi's and there are those that don't. If someone doesn't give a rip that their dog look like a chi, then go to the pound or shelter and adopt a little mix. Problem solved.  If someone wants their chi to look like a chi - they should buy from a reputable breeder who works hard to breed healthy dogs bred to the standard and who does health testing. Or rescue a chi and give a chance to a homeless dog. 

Long snouted deer heads who don't fit the standard at all SHOULD NOT be bred. Plain and simple. That is the ONLY way we are going to protect our breed for the future. Are they great pets? Of course they are! They just shouldn't be reproduced.


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## Wodjeka (Mar 29, 2012)

theshanman97 said:


> so ok let me understand this , are you saying that so called "deer heads" are badly bred dogs? if you are thats TOTALLY wrong! and you have offended ALOT of people on here who have deer heads!


Yes I did say that, but I only ment they are bred poorly according to the breed standard.


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## theshanman97 (Feb 19, 2012)

Wodjeka said:


> Yes I did say that, but I only ment they are bred poorly according to the breed standard.


ok personally i think the bred standards arent 100% they are used to make the breed look "cuter" as most people seem to think that apple heads are the cutest! i think they are equal cuteness and theres no need for this! also can i say this is going to cause a BIG divide in the group and cause unnecessary arguments!


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## Wodjeka (Mar 29, 2012)

theshanman97 said:


> I am actually disgusting because you have quiet obvoisly done this to cause attention to your self and cause a argument!


Shame you edited your post, because your post wasn't that nice and you did say some strange things.

But it is ok, if you want to think I want attention...
But I must tell you I am not in high school anymore ands I don't play that kind of games. I don't like you thinking for me.

I already said in my first post I don't want to offend anyone, because I know it is a sensitive subject.
Sorry You do feel that way.

I just want an open discussion.. we also have the same discussion on the dutch chi forums, and liked to know how people from other countries think about this subject.
And I am sorry if some of my writing sounds a little hard, but englisch isn't my first language and I don't know how to express myself better.


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## Wodjeka (Mar 29, 2012)

theshanman97 said:


> ok personally i think the bred standards arent 100% they are used to make the breed look "cuter" as most people seem to think that apple heads are the cutest! i think they are equal cuteness and theres no need for this! also can i say this is going to cause a BIG divide in the group and cause unnecessary arguments!


It doesn't have to give any problems, as long as people behave normally, and give others room for there own opinion. 

And I never said I don't like "deerheaded" chi's, and also never said I find one type cuter than the other. So I don't understand your comment??


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## theshanman97 (Feb 19, 2012)

Wodjeka said:


> Shame you edited your post, because your post wasn't that nice and you did say some strange things.
> 
> But it is ok, if you want to think I want attention...
> But I must tell you I am not in high school anymore ands I don't play that kind of games. I don't like you thinking for me.
> ...


i am sorry for my un edited post , i changed it as i read it again and relised that i had got my self all angry up defending tillie like i ALWAYS have to do in real life that i didnt think , im sorry i just dont like arguments on here as its the only place where i dont have arguments in my life! , i have had a deep think and in a way i do get where you coming from! i think i replied WITHOUT thinking lol once again im very sorry! i just got all het up lol x


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## theshanman97 (Feb 19, 2012)

Wodjeka said:


> It doesn't have to give any problems, as long as people behave normally, and give others room for there own opinion.
> 
> And I never said I don't like "deerheaded" chi's, and also never said I find one type cuter than the other. So I don't understand your comment??


i ment that it sounded and felt to me that you where saying that deer heads are not normal and weird , if that was not what you ment i am sorry


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## Wodjeka (Mar 29, 2012)

theshanman97 said:


> i am sorry for my un edited post , i changed it as i read it again and relised that i had got my self all angry up defending tillie like i ALWAYS have to do in real life that i didnt think , im sorry i just dont like arguments on here as its the only place where i dont have arguments in my life! , i have had a deep think and in a way i do get where you coming from! i think i replied WITHOUT thinking lol once again im very sorry! i just got all het up lol x


It is okay, I didn't want to offend you and especially not your dog, I think she is lovely.


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

Ok ladies ,we all have our opinions on this subject ,please keep it polite and friendly .Thank you.


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## theshanman97 (Feb 19, 2012)

Wodjeka said:


> It is okay, I didn't want to offend you and especially not your dog, I think she is lovely.


thank you! , yeah im having a off day lol , its what happens with depression  now ive researched it i see both sides and i agree with improving the breed  i need to know this considering im going to be a breeder one day lol i understand fully now and i do lean towords your views lol  x


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## Hollysmom (Nov 26, 2011)

No offense taken.

Personally I prefer the non standard look myself. Not that there's anything wrong with apple heads, I just like the deer look better. And even if there isn't any such thing as a deer head, that's okay. A chi is a chi is a chi. Although I do have to say Holly looks like a little deer to me.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I agree that there is no such thing as a deer head Chihuahua technically, it is simply a dog that doesn't fit the standard. The so-called 'deer heads' are just pet-quality dogs, and I don't see anything wrong with that, after all most Chihuahuas are going to be pets, very few become show or breeding dogs.
In the UK, the dogs that are currently being shown, and winning, are nowhere near what the standard asks for in my opinion. They have bulging eyes and extremely short muzzles, even though the standard requires eyes to be 'large, round, _but not protruding_' and muzzles to be '_moderately short_, slightly pointed'. Both these features lead to health issues, and I would much rather see less extreme, and therefore more sound, dogs being shown.
This is why I don't subscribe to the commonly held view that good breeders are necessarily the ones with lots of champion dogs, or that a good dog has to have lots of champions in it's background. A good breeder in my book, is one who breeds for health and temperament first and foremost.


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

LOL...I'm kind of at an inbetween place on this subject. Yes, I agree with you. The breed standard says apple head. The "deer head" Chi shouldn't be bred from because they are poor representitives of the breed per the standard. Doesn't mean they are less Chi & doesn't mean they are necessarily unhealthy. The AKC (and like registries) are protecting breeds by having standards & folks who breed within these standards are SUPER important at preserving the breed! PERIOD! I'm dabling in the show world & love it. It's a fun (yet expensive) hobby. I respect this entire group of people & what it stands for and I'm excited to be in the beginning stages of building a modest show breeding program myself. Modest because 1)I have a LOT of spayed/neutered pet Chi's & don't have much room left to add LOL & 2)I still have 2 daughters at home. So until I have more room/time modest it is. 

Saying that....the AKC & like registries are based on the opinions of certain people. Granted there are reasons the standard states what it states...it's not ALL about appearance & opinion ONLY. I respect the standard & the people & reasons behind it. But it's just that in the end....it's all in interpretation what a Chi _should_ look like.

I don't think "deer head" Chi's are an abomination or anything. haha I have a few myself! Actually...when I got my first Chi Matilda (second in from the left in my siggy)...I WANTED a deer head shaped Chi because the apple head didn't then appeal to me. She turned out PERFECTLY to what I wanted--I lucked out because I had no clue what I was looking for. My opinion has changed & now I prefer the apple shape. Doesn't mean I love some of my Chi's any less & it doesn't mean any are "better" than the other. Just means some better fit the breed standard than others. 

If we were ever so careful about reproducing the human race.... :tard:


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

Wicked Pixie said:


> A good breeder in my book, is one who breeds for health and temperament first and foremost.


Could not agree with you more!!


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## Wawies (Jan 23, 2012)

Imo. a Chi is a Chi...i love all chi's! (they are all cute and unique in their own way)As long as they have huge ears im happy hehe !


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Wicked Pixie said:


> In the UK, the dogs that are currently being shown, and winning, are nowhere near what the standard asks for in my opinion. They have bulging eyes and extremely short muzzles, even though the standard requires eyes to be 'large, round, _but not protruding_' and muzzles to be '_moderately short_, slightly pointed'. Both these features lead to health issues, and I would much rather see less extreme, and therefore more sound, dogs being shown.
> This is why I don't subscribe to the commonly held view that good breeders are necessarily the ones with lots of champion dogs, or that a good dog has to have lots of champions in it's background. A good breeder in my book, is one who breeds for health and temperament first and foremost.


Yes yes & YES!  great post, truly.




MChis said:


> If we were ever so careful about reproducing the human race.... :tard:


Oh yes indeed :coolwink:


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## ~LS~ (Oct 29, 2011)

Wicked Pixie said:


> I agree that there is no such thing as a deer head Chihuahua technically, it is simply a dog that doesn't fit the standard. The so-called 'deer heads' are just pet-quality dogs, and I don't see anything wrong with that, after all most Chihuahuas are going to be pets, very few become show or breeding dogs.
> In the UK, the dogs that are currently being shown, and winning, are nowhere near what the standard asks for in my opinion. They have bulging eyes and extremely short muzzles, even though the standard requires eyes to be 'large, round, _but not protruding_' and muzzles to be '_moderately short_, slightly pointed'. Both these features lead to health issues, and I would much rather see less extreme, and therefore more sound, dogs being shown.
> This is why I don't subscribe to the commonly held view that good breeders are necessarily the ones with lots of champion dogs, or that a good dog has to have lots of champions in it's background. A good breeder in my book, is one who breeds for health and temperament first and foremost.



Agreed!
Well said, I feel the same Stella.
Nothing is black or white, "registered" does not necessarily mean the breeder
is doing what is best for the dogs, some are simply chasing an "idea". And of
course there are also far too many backyard breeders and puppy mills that have
no regard for health, only profit. I support reputable breeders that do health
testing and breed for temperament, ones who breed out of their love for the
breed, ones that want to preserve or better the breed. Good breeders are
lucky to break even. If done properly, there isn't much profit in breeding.
Breeding imo should be a hobby, not a job. And when breeding, breeders 
must keep in mind that health must come before looks. Nature does things 
for a reason, who are we to play god. There are many breeds that have been
ruined, some by backyard breeders that know nothing about genetics, and
some by registered breeders that strive for extreme and unnatural looks.
It's up to us, the buyers, to make an educated choice when purchasing a
puppy, and go about it with great caution. Reputable breeder that breeds for
health, or a shelter/rescue are the best options in my opinion.


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## chideb (Jan 29, 2008)

"There are many breeds that have been ruined, some by backyard breeders that know nothing about genetics, and some by registered breeders that strive for_ extreme and unnatural looks_."

LS, I so agree with this statement and
*~A picture is worth a thousand words~*


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## theshanman97 (Feb 19, 2012)

i agree with all! i personally am worried if such a change in away chis look as happened in such a short time with these "Standards" whats gonna happen next? how extreme is it gonna go??!! , it does scare me a it to think in maybe 20 or even 10 years we are going to end up with chis and other types of dogs that are unrecognizable! it is pretty scary if you think about it!  x


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## bayoumah (Nov 30, 2010)

hi whow im not sure i think buster has chararistics like both and i love and laugh at the cuteness of all he does i agree its a personal opion id like to have a tiny chih with an apple shaped head in the future no reason except i find it so cute i dont show my dogs i just show off with them thank you


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

I completely agree that health and temperament should come first.

If anyone is interested in learning more about the standard, here's the illustrated standard with drawings which is interesting.

http://chiquito-perro-chihuahua.com/Illustrated Standard/Illustrated Standard.pdf

Also, here is a comparison of the standard then and now with photos. Really not very many changes from the 1940's until now at all!

Chihuahua Breed Standard, then and now

I agree that extreme heads can cause problems with bites. The standard does NOT say a super short stubby muzzle. It says "moderately short". Obviously some breeders have interpreted that to mean a tiny short one. 

The standard was changed to allow for bigger dogs, which is to our benefit. The 1940's standard specified 1-6 pounds with 2-4 pounds preferable. The standard now states no weight is preferable, just not exceeding 6 pounds. This is certainly to the benefit of our breed.

Here is an excellent article that further explains the standard for breeders and judges! It expounds on each part of the standard. 

JUDGING THE CHIHUAHUA: DEFINING THE BREED STANDARD


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## Hollysmom (Nov 26, 2011)

Brodysmom said:


> I completely agree that health and temperament should come first.


I agree with that as well.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

theshanman97 said:


> i agree with all! i personally am worried if such a change in away chis look as happened in such a short time with these "Standards" whats gonna happen next? how extreme is it gonna go??!! , it does scare me a it to think in maybe 20 or even 10 years we are going to end up with chis and other types of dogs that are unrecognizable! it is pretty scary if you think about it!  x


The UK kennel club revised all it's standards in 2009 Shannon in an attempt to ensure that this doesn't happen.

"A Breed Standard is the guideline which describes the ideal characteristics, temperament and appearance of a breed and ensures that the breed is fit for function. Absolute soundness is essential. Breeders and judges should at all times be careful to avoid obvious conditions or exaggerations which would be detrimental in any way to the health, welfare or soundness of this breed. From time to time certain conditions or exaggerations may be considered to have the potential to affect dogs in some breeds adversely, and judges and breeders are requested to refer to the Kennel Club website for details of any such current issues. If a feature or quality is desirable it should only be present in the right measure"

So if breeders actually breed to the standard, extremes in type should not occur.

The only changes made in the Chihuahua standard were regarding size "Weight: up to 2.7 kgs (6 lbs), with 1.8-2.7kgs (4-6 lbs) preferred." and the following was removed: "If two dogs are equally good in type, the more diminutive preferred. "
So very similar to the changes made in the American standard.


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

I haven't read the replies but am just responding with my opinion for the OP; I agree with you. That said, IMO, personally, I think longer-muzzled chihuahuas (with apple dome skulls, like my Kahlua) are cuter. So my own "preference" is halfway in between. I'm not the biggest fan of a standard chi. And I realize that standards and conformation etc. are created by ultimately human preference (our evolution of the wolf to the domestic dog.) My preference just happens to be different than those who agreed upon the standard. Skull/head shape doesn't effect the dogs health (well, actually some shorter muzzles can cause respiratory issues) and is just the cosmetic choice made ages ago. Not saying all aspects of a standard are cosmetic; no not at all; but if you look back to when the chihuahua was 'made' the skull shape didn't say much back then; the breeders wanted shorter muzzles so that's the path they took. I don't always necessary believe that a dog who is well 'conformed' to the standard, is a better quality dog. I appreciate that showing keeps the breed preserved; and that's why I enjoy learning about the standards and showing. To me, the health tests and improving the inside are more important than the head shape. If some longer-muzzled pups were included in a breeding program that otherwise would've just been pets from health tested parents; may have other excellent traits like excellent hips and knees and could help contribute to improving the breeds overall health and prosperity. The muzzle or head shape isn't whats going to destroy a breeds integrity. It's the poor dogs (even well to standard ones) who start limping and need 2 operations by the time they're 3 years old that suffer. I never will understand why when it comes to animals, humans assume the right to decide when they were reproduce. =/ When we do that to humans it's illegal.. lol. I mean, I get the animals aren't forced into it; it's instinct. But still, arranged breeding of ANY species seems strange to me. That's why my babies are fixed lol.


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## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

Interesting that you mentioned this. The breeder that Gemma came from was talking about the same thing when we picked up Gemma. She was saying how much she loved Gemma's head and face out of all the puppies the most because it was so perfect to the breed standard. She was an older woman, and she was saying how when she was a little girl, all Chihuahuas looked like her Chihuauhas and Gemma, and that now she sees so many that look nothing like the standard with super long muzzles and long bodies and legs. She says she doesn't even recognize half the Chihuahua puppies listed for sale these days as purebred Chihuahuas.

I love the standard look myself because it is the most widely known version of the Chihuahua. When people can walk by and tell you you have a nice looking Chihuahua without having to explain to them that she or he is indeed a Chihuahua, that's what counts to me. The minute we walked away with Gemma, a man outside the train station said "That's a cute Chihuahua puppy!" to us. That's what defines the breed to me.

Tracy, those references were great examples of the standard. I think the most important traits of the standard Chihuahua are the apple dome-shaped head, the stop, the big ears, and the large eyes. Other things can vary a bit and your Chihuahua will still be recognized as a Chihuahua.


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## momofmany (Apr 23, 2012)

Well I think that apple head chis are the standard but I don't
Think that a deerhead chi is not a chi just because it was born without a short muzzle or round head. My Charlie came from Apple head parents his dad is a 3 time champion his mom is a one time champion. Charlie is indeed an apple head Chihuahua his muzzle is not as short as some that I have seen but its not long either I would say its moderate which is what its supposed to be. I actually like the look of the shorter muzzle but I'm sure that comes from breeding Sjhih-tzus for so many years. I don't show or breed anymore and I know that to short a muzzle can cause all kinds of health problems so I,m glad Charlie has a little bit longer muzzle than what I've seen in the dogs that are winning at the shows to me the judges are choosing dogs with shorter and shorter muzzles and that is not what the standard is supposed to be. The standard says moderate muzzle slightly pointed not short


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## theshanman97 (Feb 19, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> The UK kennel club revised all it's standards in 2009 Shannon in an attempt to ensure that this doesn't happen.
> 
> "A Breed Standard is the guideline which describes the ideal characteristics, temperament and appearance of a breed and ensures that the breed is fit for function. Absolute soundness is essential. Breeders and judges should at all times be careful to avoid obvious conditions or exaggerations which would be detrimental in any way to the health, welfare or soundness of this breed. From time to time certain conditions or exaggerations may be considered to have the potential to affect dogs in some breeds adversely, and judges and breeders are requested to refer to the Kennel Club website for details of any such current issues. If a feature or quality is desirable it should only be present in the right measure"
> 
> ...


ok thank you! , im not cluded up as i am only 14 LOL and i need to learn alot as in about 3 - 4 years (After ive finished school and college) i am planning on breeding and want to get the standards correct and as next year im getting a pure chi which me and mum have come to the decision will be the one i will breed i need to know what to look out for so i can get the best dog so i can have a breeding standards approved litter!  , anyone else got any tips? x


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

LittleGemma said:


> She was saying how much she loved Gemma's head and face out of all the puppies the most because it was so perfect to the breed standard. She was an older woman, and she was saying how when she was a little girl, all Chihuahuas looked like her Chihuauhas and Gemma, and that now she sees so many that look nothing like the standard with super long muzzles and long bodies and legs. She says she doesn't even recognize half the Chihuahua puppies listed for sale these days as purebred Chihuahuas.
> 
> I love the standard look myself because it is the most widely known version of the Chihuahua. When people can walk by and tell you you have a nice looking Chihuahua without having to explain to them that she or he is indeed a Chihuahua, that's what counts to me. The minute we walked away with Gemma, a man outside the train station said "That's a cute Chihuahua puppy!" to us. That's what defines the breed to me.


I think I am going to disagree with you here, I know you are from the US.
Europe has some weird things going on with ultra short muzzles and bug eyes right now. This is NOT how any Chihuahua's looked when I was growing up.. I can assure you of this! & I am older than you.  I think your breeder may well be full of it.. but since I did not grow up in Europe I cannot be certain as to how the dogs looked 25 years ago so I'll refrain from actually stating that.

You make a great point how a random stranger (in europe) realized your dog was a Chihuahua.

My dogs look just like Gemma .. actually maybe even shorter in the muzzle (aside from being longcoats) I live in a very populated urban area, my dogs are out and about several times a week with me and I SWEAR to you nobody realizes they are Chihuahua's I have to stop and explain. (as I posted earlier) I'm going to go on a limb here and say it's not just the long coat causing this reaction.

Anyhow the "extreme" look your dog has (to a degree) and mine (most certainly) is not the most widely known version.. absolutely not in North America, people in a show ring make up a very very tiny populous of people who own these dogs.

When I was shopping for a dog I was corresponding with several breeders by e-mail in my own country (after being ripped off by a US breeder) and the dogs they were sending me pics of looked nothing like my dogs do now, they were all longer in the head and face & larger in size.
The breeder my male came from works in tandem with a breeder in Europe this could explain the exaggerated head ..but he also has prominent lines from the USA in his pedigreee as well.


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## proudpeyotemama (Feb 20, 2012)

I have no idea what "type" of Chi my girl is, but I love her regardless and I think that everyone on here has very stunning Chihuahua's. If you aren't interested in showing or breeding your dog, why should it matter? They all make wonderful pets, no matter if they have a deer-head or apple-head.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

theshanman97 said:


> ok thank you! , im not cluded up as i am only 14 LOL and i need to learn alot as in about 3 - 4 years (After ive finished school and college) i am planning on breeding and want to get the standards correct and as next year im getting a pure chi which me and mum have come to the decision will be the one i will breed i need to know what to look out for so i can get the best dog so i can have a breeding standards approved litter!  , anyone else got any tips? x


Shannon the best tip I can give you is to go and work in a breeding kennels. Any breed, doesn't have to be Chihuahuas. You probably won't get paid, but the experience will be invaluable. You will get to see all aspects of breeding, including births if you are lucky, and the breeder may well take you along to shows. This is what I did as a teenager. You will also need the contacts if you are planning on breeding, you will need a mentor to call on with queries and assist with your first litter. First time mummy dog and first time breeder is not a good combination, you really need hands-on experience.
BTW if you are getting your breeding bitch next year, she will be too old to have a first litter in 3 or 4 years time. Toy breed bitches are usually mated on their second season.


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## theshanman97 (Feb 19, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> Shannon the best tip I can give you is to go and work in a breeding kennels. Any breed, doesn't have to be Chihuahuas. You probably won't get paid, but the experience will be invaluable. You will get to see all aspects of breeding, including births if you are lucky, and the breeder may well take you along to shows. This is what I did as a teenager. You will also need the contacts if you are planning on breeding, you will need a mentor to call on with queries and assist with your first litter. First time mummy dog and first time breeder is not a good combination, you really need hands-on experience.
> BTW if you are getting your breeding bitch next year, she will be too old to have a first litter in 3 or 4 years time. Toy breed bitches are usually mated on their second season.


thank you! and how do i find breeding kennels? and also i didnt know about that!  so should i get her and not use her for breeding? or breed her earlier? :S x


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Why not try asking the Chi breeder you found? She might be grateful for some help, and if she sees how keen you are is much more likely to sell you a puppy. If not, she probably knows other breeders local to you.
Personally, I wouldn't go rushing out to buy a brood bitch if I were you. Breeding takes up a lot of time and money. Learn as much as you can, and keep breeding as your goal for the future.


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## theshanman97 (Feb 19, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> Why not try asking the Chi breeder you found? She might be grateful for some help, and if she sees how keen you are is much more likely to sell you a puppy. If not, she probably knows other breeders local to you.
> Personally, I wouldn't go rushing out to buy a brood bitch if I were you. Breeding takes up a lot of time and money. Learn as much as you can, and keep breeding as your goal for the future.


sadly she hasent messaged me back yet and ive found out shes a "Occasional" breeder and they had a litter last year  yeah i think what i will do is get my next puppy but not breed in till i have my own place and a permanent job.

Also do you think working at a shelter would be good too? also thank you for all your help! x


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

I have no clue what my two are and I do not care. Both BG and Sonny are from the same parents just 1 year apart. The breeder that gave them to me is an amazing guy who cares about nothing more than the dogs. I know both of mine are registered by DNA with the AKC (whatever that means) but I love their health and personalities. When I mention deer it was not due to the shape of their face but their long legs. Was I wrong? These are my first chis and I am not into showing etc. but just to brag on my kids BG's littermate sister was photographed for Italian Vogue  

My kids are my kids to love and in my eyes they are perfect! I have had issues with breeders for a very long time and the guy that gave me my two is slowly changing my aspect of them. Most of it is because of my history as a vet tech, working with SPCA, and rescue groups (I am the Director of Adoptions for Basset Rescue). I have seen mostly the negative side and my friend knows every dog by name, who is related to who, details on every dog, and he constantly keeps up with all of them including those over seas. He loves these chis more than he does people LOL


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

We have high-jacked this thread somewhat! Yes, work anywhere with dogs. Shelters generally have litters of pups and kittens. Working with any animals will be good, I bred guinea pigs, rabbits, and hamsters as a child and I used to go lambing when I was your age, it's all fantastic experience. Giving birth is basically the same with all mammals, but it isn't something you can learn from a book, you need to see it first hand.


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## theshanman97 (Feb 19, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> We have high-jacked this thread somewhat! Yes, work anywhere with dogs. Shelters generally have litters of pups and kittens. Working with any animals will be good, I bred guinea pigs, rabbits, and hamsters as a child and I used to go lambing when I was your age, it's all fantastic experience. Giving birth is basically the same with all mammals, but it isn't something you can learn from a book, you need to see it first hand.


yeah! LOL and yeah i was thinking of doing shelters to help with my depression too as i LOVE being around animals!  and i would breed my hamsters but i dunno how my mum would feel!  i would LOVE to do lambing !  it sounds fun but v hard work! x


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Absolutely, fresh air and exercise are excellent natural cures for depression, as is doing something you love. Go volunteer, I'm sure loads of places would be really grateful to have you. 
You might even be able to get a work experience placement through your school or the LEA that would lead to a qualification. Have you thought about doing an animal related college course?


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## Hollysmom (Nov 26, 2011)

KittyD said:


> You make a great point how a random stranger (in europe) realized your dog was a Chihuahua.


I'm glad you mentioned Europe. lol Holly's far from the standard, but people (here in the US) still recognize that she's a Chihuahua. 



proudpeyotemama said:


> I have no idea what "type" of Chi my girl is, but I love her regardless and I think that everyone on here has very stunning Chihuahua's. If you aren't interested in showing or breeding your dog, why should it matter? They all make wonderful pets, no matter if they have a deer-head or apple-head.


Because deer heads can't been shown. And if they aren't shown chances are they aren't being bred to improve the breed. I think it's safe to say that BYB's, puppymills, and accidental whoop litters aren't checked for health, let alone temperament. Not to mention they are usually bred at any age and bred continuously. How is that helping to improve it?



Wicked Pixie said:


> Shannon the best tip I can give you is to go and work in a breeding kennels. Any breed, doesn't have to be Chihuahuas. You probably won't get paid, but the experience will be invaluable. You will get to see all aspects of breeding, including births if you are lucky, and the breeder may well take you along to shows. This is what I did as a teenager. You will also need the contacts if you are planning on breeding, you will need a mentor to call on with queries and assist with your first litter. First time mummy dog and first time breeder is not a good combination, you really need hands-on experience.


I agree, that'd probably be your best bet. :idea1:

Btw I work for a professional handler. She handles a lot of different breeds. I haven't seen an chihuahuas though. 



theshanman97 said:


> thank you! and how do i find breeding kennels? and also i didnt know about that!  so should i get her and not use her for breeding? or breed her earlier? :S x


Go to shows. Ask around. If that isn't possible contact local breeders. 

You could always get her and get into showing. If it's something you really want to pursue you could always get another bitch later down the road.



Huly said:


> I have had issues with breeders for a very long time and the guy that gave me my two is slowly changing my aspect of them.


Funny, I have issues with them as well...


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## theshanman97 (Feb 19, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> Absolutely, fresh air and exercise are excellent natural cures for depression, as is doing something you love. Go volunteer, I'm sure loads of places would be really grateful to have you.
> You might even be able to get a work experience placement through your school or the LEA that would lead to a qualification. Have you thought about doing an animal related college course?


yeah i am thinkinh of doing a college course in animal care now  and sadly i wont get a school work placment as im not even in school atm and i am planning home schooling cause of problems ive had but i am thinking about going into showing? x


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I know you aren't in school, but you are still entitled to an education. If you are still registered with your school, they are obligated to help you. Your LEA will fund any course you do.
We have school aged kids (years 10 and 11) at the college where I work (further education college, so normally 16-18 yr olds) so go and see what there is available in your area.


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## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

If I were you, Shan, I'd actually post an ad somewhere like Craigslist and mention you are looking for a mentor who shows and breeds dogs "the right way." I'm sure plenty of breeders out there would gladly give advice, but it doesn't do any good if you're talking to a BYB lol. Explain you want to learn how to help improve the breed, etc. and that you'd like some hands-on experience in the ring, lend a hand at vet visits, and maybe even take some Junior handling classes. (I have no idea what the age is for that though.) In fact; try calling around dog training kennels in your area and request to take the first class of conformation training. Most places will even let you train your own pet in the class, even if it won't be shown, just for the experience. That would give you something to do with Tillie; while learning the right skills about breeding (as well as meeting people in the class who are actively showing their dogs; and learn and grow with them. =) Then if you found a mentor through the class, they might know some reputable breeders to direct you to for the right dog. And if you've got the classes you may even be able to help be a handler for the breeder of your future dog.  Good luck!


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## theshanman97 (Feb 19, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> I know you aren't in school, but you are still entitled to an education. If you are still registered with your school, they are obligated to help you. Your LEA will fund any course you do.
> We have school aged kids (years 10 and 11) at the college where I work (further education college, so normally 16-18 yr olds) so go and see what there is available in your area.





KittynKahlua said:


> If I were you, Shan, I'd actually post an ad somewhere like Craigslist and mention you are looking for a mentor who shows and breeds dogs "the right way." I'm sure plenty of breeders out there would gladly give advice, but it doesn't do any good if you're talking to a BYB lol. Explain you want to learn how to help improve the breed, etc. and that you'd like some hands-on experience in the ring, lend a hand at vet visits, and maybe even take some Junior handling classes. (I have no idea what the age is for that though.) In fact; try calling around dog training kennels in your area and request to take the first class of conformation training. Most places will even let you train your own pet in the class, even if it won't be shown, just for the experience. That would give you something to do with Tillie; while learning the right skills about breeding (as well as meeting people in the class who are actively showing their dogs; and learn and grow with them. =) Then if you found a mentor through the class, they might know some reputable breeders to direct you to for the right dog. And if you've got the classes you may even be able to help be a handler for the breeder of your future dog.  Good luck!


Thank you to both of you! i am going to ask my action for children lady if she can find out for me today!  mum is also going to phone up a shelter to see if i can help out at one near me  x


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## Rocky (Jan 25, 2010)

Seems like the discussion went kind of off topic but I would still like to add a think.

According to the Chihuahua breed standart there is no such thing as a deerheaded Chihuahua. In all of the standarts its clearly stated that a Chihuahuas head should be apple headed. 

I don't even know why people feel offended by it? There are loads of cute Chihuahuas out there which are simply not that typical. Rocky is bigger than according to the standart so he is not typical at all. Still the cutest dog to me though .


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## Angel1210 (Mar 14, 2011)

The "breed standards" are for AKC purposes. For people like to show their dogs, it is great! You have to have standards.

But for someone like me, I like the cuteness, smallness, etc of the chihuahua. My first one was an applehead and had slight breathing problems because of his small snout. So my next one, I wanted a little longer snout!! So, yeah I think the apple head with a slightly longer snout is "pervect!" 

Of course, I love them no matter what!!


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## Rocky (Jan 25, 2010)

What is the snout length having to do with the head form? There can be apple headed chihuahuas with a slightly longer snout. Not all apple headed chihuahuas have at the same time very short snouts.


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## Wodjeka (Mar 29, 2012)

I was not able to respond because the internet didn't work.
But I think it is a very interesting thread, and I can agree with most of you.

I also don't like the very short muzzled chi's it is to extreme, and it causes only more health problems.

I think this is a mostely a fault by the dog show judges. (offcourse also the breeders)
A judge decides which dog is best, and if the judge thinks the dog with the shortest muzzle is the winner, and that dog keeps on winning..... everyone will look at that dog thinking that there new generation should look more like that.

So the breeders will work towards a dog with a shorter muzzle, and before you know the breed has changed because the new standard is a very short muzzle.
Not good for the breed, and not according to breed standard!!!! 
I think there should be more supervision and more agreements on how a breed should look. And the personal preferences of a judge should not be considered in placing a dog!


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