# Update on Coopy :)



## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

Hi all!

Not sure if anyone remembers or read the post, but not too long after getting Coopy (Cooper) I posted this thread;

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chi...farm-petshop-purebreed-advise.html#post963227

In short it was me being upset about the fact that I had supported a puppy farm and also that we may have been lied to and Coopy may not have been a pure chi.

So what happened was I rang our department of fair trading (in regards to the purebred problem) and they basically told me if it clearly doesn't look and behave like a chi you have grounds for a case.
After that, it took a long while for me to face the petshop but I eventually rang (a few weeks ago) and asked about Coopys breeders and parents. The manager told me that Coopers parents were from 'Allamanda kennels' a well known registered Chi breeder here in NSW. I didn't ask anything else other than if she can tell me the actual breeders address and she said no but that she can help with any questions etc. I gave up because I realized I didn't have a case or leg to stand on. Plus I wanted to research 'Allamanda Kennels'.

Then a week ago my partners mum, who has been wanting a Chi forever, purchased a pup from Picolopaws, another breeder here in NSW. We took her to see the pup and also asked before we came if we could bring Coopy to see how they get along. This is where it gets interesting.

As soon as this breeder sees Coopy she tells us he has an underbite (which I can see now too from the front, not really at all on the side though) I ask her if she thinks Coopy is purebred. At first she says 'definitely not'. Later she says she doesn't know, maybe. His nose put her off (maybe she just added this becuase she thought we felt bad). Then I ask her if she is familiar with Allamanda Kennels? She says very much so, The lady who owns it is her friend at those are the pups she is selling on behalf of Allamanda (the lady who owns it has had some serious personal troubles). I then tell her Coopy is supposedly from those lines. She looks horrified. She explains that she has never seen a deer head in Allamandas puppies/dogs and it does not look like one of hers and that the petshop are wrongly using the breeders name. She also says that she will tell the breeder as she is seeing her the next day and will have a word to the petshops owner (she used the managers name and it was the same one I spoke to). So I was happy with all this as it seemed like finally we are getting somewhere! Yes the petshop won't tell us but maybe they will tell her! She tells us to ring at any time and also that she will ring the next day to see how the pup is doing (that my partners mother bought).

So the next day we call the petshop again. This time my parnter speaks to the manager. She AGAIN confirms that two dogs from seperate blood lines from Allamanda Kennels were purchased by X family THROUGH the petshop. X family then breeds these two dogs and the result is Coopy and Coopys Brother who they give to the petshop to sell. (With no paper work). Just to recap it was a pets paradise chain petshop. And for this reason she claims we bought them and part of the health guarantee is that they ARE prebred if stated (Which it is). My partner asks proof such as paper work. She says she cant but that she sighted paperwork of the parents. He tells her we have reason to believe he is not purebred. She gets defensive and says Cooper is still growing so the deer head thing isn't yet how he will be as an adult (which is bull) and that Chis are all different shapes and sizes. My partner then tells her we took him to the breeder and she denies he is one of hers. She tells us that the breeders husband was the one that the petshop got the puppies from and that deerheads can still result even if the parents and grandparents are appleheads. After a long time debating this my partner hangs up and we call the breeder (and at this stage we were lucky enough to call at this time as the breeder from Allamanda kennels happens to be over at Picolo paws and so my partner speaks directly to her. He tells her everything that the petshop is claiming. She tells us that her husband DID INFACT sell puppes to THAT PETSHOP however she has NOT had deer heads. She said it is possible but VERY VERY VERY unlikely that a puppy from hers would turn out deer headed. She also said her husband passed away (thus why the other breeder is now selling her pups for her as they are friends) and so It is hard to know what he did re selling pups etc but that she will call the petshop and find out when she can (not straight away as she is obviously dealing with a loss).

SO in all this is very confusing. Pets Paradise are quite likely lying but for all we know the breeders husband may have done something we don't know as well etc. It is so hard to know what to believe. Coopy has an underbite, something a good breeder would not have. I look at Coopy and the older he gets the harder I find it is to believe he is pure. (Its just something about his jaw/nose that gets me) But at least I know it is MUCH less likely that it was a puppy farm that he came from. I always had horrible images in my head of him being born with no vet care into a dirty cage and his poor mum exhausted from pumping out puppies  It sounds like just some owners who decided to breed (however we can't be sure 100%). Another thing that strikes me as odd is that there were 'only 2 puppies' Cooper and his brother. I thought Chis usually had 3-4 pups per litter. Perhaps Coopy did have more but him and his Bro were the only 2 who could 'pass off' as purebred? Maybe i'm overthinking hehe. Buuuuut for as long as I could tell Coopy hasn't had the molera which is even MORE likely then that he isn't pure... although the breeder said that Chis were less likely to have them now than in the past. Almost like each generation it is closing xD hehehe

Makes me sad to think Coopy isn't pure because it means we were scammed and lied to (Don't get me wrong I love him 110% whether pure or not pure chi). 
I Just don't like being led to believe something about anyone that isn't true. It probably sounds really stupid of me but I think back to when Coopy my partner and I, all watched Beverly Hills Chihuahua together and I pointed at Chis on the screen and told Coopy 'that's what he was' and 'those were his relatives' and that in fact it may not be true as he may not be pure   So I unintentionally lied to Coopy as well  

Well guys thanks for listening. It sure was a lot to get out there! I will post more when we hear from the breeder.  Really appreciate everyone on heres thoughts and kind words so far.  Xo


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## heartagram (Aug 4, 2012)

having a deer head though doesn't mean he isn't purebred?
doesn't make him any less of a chi , apple head is just prefered for show standard as far as I'm aware.


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

That is correct but when all of a breeders chis are apple heads it makes Coopers claim of being from that breeder VERY unlikely.


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## heartagram (Aug 4, 2012)

yes to that but I don't think he is mixed.
how much does he weigh?
he still looks full chi to me though, very pretty boy!


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

Awww thankyou  The thinking he is mixed just comes from how he looks from the front (his nose/jaw) and the other 'dodgy' things like only having 1 other puppy in his litter (i am thinking there were more but they couldn't be sold as purebred as they looked more like a cross than coopy and his brother) the fact that I could never feel his molera, the fact that he is from a petshop etc.

He is roughly 2 kg now and is a week or so off being 6 months. 

I'll attach some pics here of his nose/jaw so you can see what I mean 

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8160&stc=1&d=1350842856

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8161&stc=1&d=1350842994

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8162&stc=1&d=1350843181


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## susan davis (Mar 25, 2011)

I still think he is purebred. Having a deerhead and a nose that is longer than a 'show dogs' doesn't make him a mix. There are 10 pound PUREBRED chihuahuas. They are not from show lines obviously. But they are purebred from bigger parents who are also purebred. There are appleheads and dearheads. both can be purebred. I really do not think you were decieved. The breeder probably doesn't want to admit that 'her' line produced a dearhead!!


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

Also please excuse the mess in the background, that towel was his when he had a bath and then he was using it to play with xD And the pen too! He has a thing for pens when we are writing so we took out the ink and bits and peices of one and stuffed some hard fabric inside so it wont break and he can play with a pen when we are writing too! hehehe


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

Really? You don't think his nose/jaw is too wide for a chi? 
Personally I love how he looks I think he is so handsome I wouldn't want him to look any other way, but I am bias after all xD hehehe


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## intent2smile (Dec 4, 2011)

He looks full chi to me. 

The petshop could have lied to you about the breeder. Some breeders will even say another chi is not full blooded if they do not come from one of their litters. There are also breeders that pride themselves in having only apple head chis and perhaps she just don't want to admit that a deer head chi came from her dogs.

Many chis have different amount of pups in their litter sometimes a chi will even only have one pup so 2 pups in a liter is not uncommon.

If you want to know with more clarity there is a DNA test that can be done to tell you if he is full chi or not but I have also heard they are not always reliable but it might give you some closure one way or another.

Chis have different shapes and sizes. There is a chi standard but just because they do not fit in the standard does not mean they are not full chi. Some chis have a longer muzzle and some have a shorter. Some chis are over 6 pounds but they are still full chis. There are a lot of different chis on this forum that are different looks and different sizes but in my opinion they are all beautiful even the mixes. 

He is a beautiful chi and I am sure you will have many years of fun and love together.


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## heartagram (Aug 4, 2012)

I don't think his jaw or nose looks any different from any other deerheads including my own.
Don't understand what you mean?
Noah is far from standard but full chi as far as i'm aware! hes got quite a chunky and long nose.










2 in a litter doesn't sound unusual either, not for such a small dog but the breeders on here can answer that question.

How much is 2kg is that about 4lbs? Doesn't sound huge for a chi.

A purebred chihuahua doesn't have to have a molera either, isn't a definite sign some pures may have a little one or nothing.


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## KrystalLeigh (Aug 17, 2011)

Just because a chihuahua doesn't fit into the breed standard, doesn't mean that they're not purebred. If that were the case, I think the majority of the chis on this forum wouldn't be considered to be full chihuahua.


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## Smith (Jun 7, 2010)

Ditto what others have said.

Honestly, both the breeder and the pet shop's stories sound kind of weird to me, and I suspect neither is being entirely honest. Was the breeder's husband selling the pups without her sayso? Why would a breeder sell pups to a petstore at all instead of placing them herself? It all seems a mite fishy...

That being said, your Cooper is adorable and as other folks have said 'purebred' and 'show standard' are two very different things. Many full-blooded chihuahuas don't fit the standard, and even the best, most reputable breeders will have pups in a litter that, through no fault of anyone's, just won't meet the standard. Genetics are nutty, that way.

The molera thing isn't a guarantee one way or the other, either. Lots of chis have no open molera (which, honestly, is preferable, if you ask me), and though it's less common, dogs from other breeds can have open fonts as well. I have a Pomeranian and a Chinese Crested... thing that both have open moleras.

I think Coopy is a full chi, but even if he isn't, you weren't lying to him. All those chihuahuas on the TV could still be his 'relatives'... just on his mother's side.


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## nabi (Nov 25, 2004)

I think he is adorable...love his coloring...I know you feel that you have been mislead but having such a lovable little fellow should alleviate any angst your having...I just lost a little girl who meant the world to me but she never would have made a show dog..but to me she was the most beautiful girl in the world... enjoy your time with Coopy..


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

I agree with everyone else as well. Chloe's liter only had 2 puppies. With such small dogs its very common to have small liters. 


Sent from my iPhone using PetGuide


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## Barracuda51 (Oct 7, 2012)

I think hes adorable as well, love his colors. I think the deer heads are just as special as any other chi head shape apple or not, the deer head has a beauty to it all on its own. Gives the dog its charecter & distinctiveness. Muffin has a deer head but that dont mean i dont love her, shes a real doll in my eyes and that face is always to cute to resist kissing on..


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

Awww! Thanks everyone for all Coopers compliments/kind words, they are all so lovely and mean so much. I like his colouring too  Thanks guys for your support :love5:

I know you guys must think it seems silly me thinking that about him being mixed, it's just that I see some mixed breed chis and they look full! It is so easy to be deceived. And I guess I don't trust petshops etc OR anyone who can get a lot of money from something. 

Thanks again all  I will keep you posted when the breeder calls back regarding telling off the petshop  hehehe


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