# Understanding the genetics of the size of a Chi.



## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Many Chi parents wonder what size their Chi will be when full grown. Their size at 8/9 weeks old won't tell you much. They can also be the runt, and still end up the biggest pup in the litter. They may be the bigger one in the litter, and end up the smallest adult. It's a catch 20/20. The size of their parents and grandparents can give you some idea, but won't be full proof. 

Many also wonder what their Chi will weigh when grown. If you have seen enough Chi's, looked at enough pictures, you will know that their weight does not always coincide with their size. I have seen so many Chi's that weigh 3 lbs. that look like they weigh 5 lbs. Or 5 lb. Chi's that look the same size as what you think a 4 lb. Chi would look like. Those weights are just used as an example. It will be all weights that can appear larger or smaller than what you'd think.

Their builds can play some role in the difference as well. Or possibly outdated weights being used.

I can also tell you that all 3 of mine grew up until after their first Birthday. Not significantly after 8/9 months old, but they did grow some. After that they will continue to fill out until they are 18 months old. Many times being with them everyday you don't see their growth as much as someone else may notice.

For anyone reading this saying, well who cares about all of this? Many, many do. It's one of the biggest topics among the Chi. 

The best weight gauge to go by is one that I was given by a Chi Breeder of 30 years. It has worked for all 3 of mine, and many others as well. Take their weight at 12 weeks, double it, and add 1 lb. That should get you very close to their adult weight. 

This is not to start any kind of debate. It's information, research, experience, and what I've learned from a Breeder with years of experience with Chi‘s. It's not to say that someone hasn't had a difference experience, or other information that could be helpful. 

I also want to point out that a 3/4 lb. adult Chi is very tiny. This will vary for sure, but most of the more cobby bodied Chi's at this size will be about 7 to 7 1/2 inches tall from the floor to their withers (top of their shoulders). That's a little more than the height of your hand. Their length will be a little more than their height. My 2 lb. girl is about 6 1/2 inches tall. 

Hope this is helpful for some. 

I'll post a diagram to show you how two average sized parents can have puppies ranging anywhere from tiny to large. It's all based on genetics.










More information:

I'm sure at least some of you have wondered at the amazing variation in size when looking at Chihuahuas. How is it that two normal sized, or even quite large parents produce a tiny offspring? 

It's pure genetics. 

The gene that controls chihuahua size has six parts, or alleles, and each parent passes on three of theirs to the offspring. Size alleles can be best described as having a value of either + (positive) or - (negative). The six "values" of the alleles are combined for a total, which determines size. 

For example: +,+,+,-,-,-, = 6 alleles, or 3 positive and 3 negative. Think of + as "up 1", and - as "down 1." The first three positives cancel out the next three negatives (+1+1+1-1-1-1 = 0), so we end up with 0, or your proverbial "average". 

Another example: +,-,+,-,-,-. Added together, we get 2 up and 4 down, with an end result of -2, "2 down", or below average size. (+1+1-1-1-1-1 = -2) 

One more. +,+,+,+,-,-. 4 up and 2 down = +2, or "2 up". 
(+1+1+1+1-1-1 = 2) In other words, a bigger than average pup. 

Are you starting to get the idea? Ok, let's start passing things on to the kids. 

Take two, average sized parents: Dad = +,+,+,-,-,- and Mom = +,+,+,-,-,-. Let's give them a litter of 3. 

Pup #1: Take (at random) 2 minuses and 1 plus from Dad and 1 minus and 2 pluses from Mom. So, Pup #1 is -1,-1,+1,-1,+1,+1. The total is 0, or average size... an average size pup from 2 average sized parents. Not surprising. 

Pup #2: Take (again, at random) 3 minuses from Dad and three minuses from Mom. What size pup do we get? Pup #2 is -1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1. The total is -6, or one very tiny puppy. 

Pup #3: Let's have all the pluses that both Mom and Dad can give (this combination can also happen randomly). That's +1,+1,+1,+1,+1,+1 = 6, and results in a chihuahua much larger than either parent. 
When you see how size is inherited, it all starts to make sense doesn't it? But genetics is only part of the story with regard to size. 

It has been well documented that the human race is getting bigger and taller with each generation. When you look through museum reproductions of early settler's cottages, the height of doorways and the length of beds stand out as being quite small by today's standards. 

This gradual, but steady increase in the size of humans has been attributed by scientists to improvements in diet and health care over the years. Diet is just one factor in what is generally referred to as "environment", and environment plays a major role in the size of chihuahuas as well. Proper nutrition, maternal care, warmth and exercise all contribute to growth in a puppy. 

The last variable in determining size is a congenital factor affecting growth. New research from the Canine Genome Project has shown a link between size and thyroid development. What is not clear yet is whether size is effecting the development of the thyroid or the development of the thyroid is effecting size. It is well documented, however, that the very tiny examples of our breed have more frequent and serious health problems than normal sized chihuahuas.


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## lilbabyvenus (Feb 8, 2009)

Great info!


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks for posting. Good info on a very interesting topic.

As the information stated, really good nutrition and health care has caused an increase in size in humans and that applies to our dogs too. Some unscrupulous breeders will feed the worst possible food and not as much as needed in order to keep their puppies "smaller" and easier to sell. That is so wrong. 

I also think that pictures can be deceiving. Some of our Chi's look a lot bigger in photos than they do in person! Not sure why that it is!! Unless you have something in the picture that doesn't change (like a pop can for example), it's hard to gauge just how large the dog is from the picture. Brody is about 4 pounds and I think he looks bigger than that in the pictures. I have had people over who haven't seen him in person yet and they all say "oh my gosh, he's so TINY!!!" So sometimes pictures are deceiving.

I love the tinies! But I love the bigger guys too. There is a huge weight range in our standard when it says 2-6 pounds! 

Brodysmom


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

Thanks for posting. I have seen that website before and the diagram is very helpful. A lot of member's here use themselves and give the advice of doubling the 12 week weight. Like you said it is hit and miss.

My boys didnt gain any weight after they were 6 months old. But when Yoshi turned 3 yrs old he gained about 8 oz. Chibi will be 2 yrs old in a month and he hasnt gained any since he was 6 months old. For some reason mine charted perfectly and their growth ended at 6 months and then filled out a bit around 3 yrs old. Some grow until 8 months and some can grow up to 2 yrs old depending on the line and apparently some weight until their 3 yrs old to gain a bit more, LOL!

I always find it to be very interesting how I can see a Chi that is short and stout and feel as though he weighs a ton when picked up but some of the lankier longer legged guys can feel as if you are lifting a feather, LOL! And picture's definately decieve you. I so want a little cobby boy in the future


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

lilbabyvenus said:


> Great info!





Brodysmom said:


> Thanks for posting. Good info on a very interesting topic.
> 
> As the information stated, really good nutrition and health care has caused an increase in size in humans and that applies to our dogs too. Some unscrupulous breeders will feed the worst possible food and not as much as needed in order to keep their puppies "smaller" and easier to sell. That is so wrong.
> 
> ...


You all are welcome! It's always an interesting topic, and one that intrigues many.

Any Breeder that under feeds their Moms (I prefer not to call them the B word) or their pups is cruel in my opinion. They should take care of the Mom's as well as they would take care of themselves should they be pregnant. Every pup deserves the best chance in life, and proper nutrition and care is a necessity. I also feel (just my opinion) that Breeding any female under 4 lbs. is only asking for trouble.

The tinies are cute, but not everyone wants a tiny. I know some that prefer the larger size Chi because it fits their lifestyle better. I have seen all sizes, and the larger end of the standard at 6 lbs. is by far big. And that's coming from someone with 3 tinies. 

I did not choose my pups for their size, had no idea they'd stay so small. If they would have gone by their parents size, they would have been 4 lb. pups. After Lexie staying so small, we had hoped for one a bit bigger. Chance was T tiny when we got him, but had such a sturdy shape. At 8 weeks old he was 1/2 lb., but a pudgy little booger. We thought that maybe because of his build he'd end up 4 or 5 lbs. But he didn't, and I am fine with that. When I chose the 3rd (Gia) I said to heck with it, she'll be whatever size she was meant to be. She is the smallest of my 3.

With a trained eye you can come pretty close to their size and weight by just looking at a few pictures even without a size guide next to them. 

The information I provided just helps everyone understand how the genetics work, weather they are more partial to the lower end of the standard, or the higher. Like I mentioned, some people prefer not to have a 2 to 3 lb. dog full grown.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Yoshismom said:


> Thanks for posting. I have seen that website before and the diagram is very helpful. A lot of member's here use themselves and give the advice of doubling the 12 week weight. Like you said it is hit and miss.
> 
> My boys didnt gain any weight after they were 6 months old. But when Yoshi turned 3 yrs old he gained about 8 oz. Chibi will be 2 yrs old in a month and he hasnt gained any since he was 6 months old. For some reason mine charted perfectly and their growth ended at 6 months and then filled out a bit around 3 yrs old. Some grow until 8 months and some can grow up to 2 yrs old depending on the line and apparently some weight until their 3 yrs old to gain a bit more, LOL!
> 
> I always find it to be very interesting how I can see a Chi that is short and stout and feel as though he weighs a ton when picked up but some of the lankier longer legged guys can feel as if you are lifting a feather, LOL! And picture's definately decieve you. I so want a little cobby boy in the future


The 12 weeks double weight is more accurate if you double, then add 1 lb. And certainly it can vary. 

I'm sure there are always exceptions to the rule, but their growth completely stopping at 6 months isn't common. 

As they age they get less active, so it's pretty common for them to gain some weight like you mention your Yoshi did. It won't change their size of course, just gives them a bit of fluff through the middle. :wink: 

Most grow actively until they are 8/9 months, then growth slows considerably until after their first BD, then continue to fill out until 18 months old, and some as long as 2 years old. 

I wanted to give the average/norm so that anyone researching this topic gets a view of how their Chi will grow most likely. Not that it is a concrete science, but pretty accurate for most. 

The more cobby bodies will feel heavier, but look smaller. Their weight is very compact, while the longer deer head Chi's have their weight distributed out.

It would be comparable to looking at a woman 6' tall/140 lbs. vs. a woman at 5'/120 lbs. Even though the taller woman is slender, the shorter person is going to look smaller, and more petite. Make sense?

It's hard to come across information that goes further into the genetics of their size, so I thought some might find it useful.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Interesting post 

Not contesting the issue but can a tiny "runt" (horrible term...sorry) really end up the biggest of the litter? In other words can they catch up and overtake size wise their siblings? Not doubting this just wouldn't have thought so?

Thank you for info!

Barbara x


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Rosiesmum said:


> Interesting post
> 
> Not contesting the issue but can a tiny "runt" (horrible term...sorry) really end up the biggest of the litter? In other words can they catch up and overtake size wise their siblings? Not doubting this just wouldn't have thought so?
> 
> ...


Yes, very easily.  Their size at birth doesn't always tell you what size they'll be as an adult. I have seen "runts" end up on the larger end of the standard. They can also be runts because of some sort of health issue that doesn't allow them to live very long.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Well fancy that!

Yes sadly some of the tinies as we have seen don't do so well. I suppose that can happen in any breed or indeed animal 

Barbara x


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

Yes, some far outgrow the littermates. This not only is correct in toy breeds but all breed's including Giant breeds like the Great Dane;-)

I have seen a runt of the litter Chihuahua double the size of the littermates.


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## Harley's Mom (Feb 5, 2009)

TLI - thank you for posting that information. It is a very interesting topic indeed. I was told my my breeder that merle chis are generally larger that breed standard so I was expecting Harley to be more than the high end of 6 lbs. Turned out that is the case - he was 7 lbs on Feb 20. Again, I didn't choose him for his size - he chose me. Lucky me.

Simon is much smaller. If the 12 week "rule" is true he should be about 6 lbs full grown. 

Whatever their size is I have known many a "runt" to far outgrow their litter mates. In return, I have known many a biggie at birth to be a small full grown adult. Apart from genetics, I think it also has to do with how they are raised - what nutrition they are getting especially.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

TLI said:


> The 12 weeks double weight is more accurate if you double, then add 1 lb. And certainly it can vary.
> 
> *That is what I was referring to, I just didnt add the 1 lb mark. We always tell member's that is the best way to determine and also looking at parents and grandparents but none is fool proof.*
> 
> ...


 
That is funny that finished growing by 6 months is not the norm, LOL! Both of my boys came from different breeder's Yoshi being from a horrible breeder and Chibi coming from and okay breeder but a byb. And both of them didnt and havent grown any since 6 months old with the exception of Yoshi gaining 8 oz but not until he was after 3 yrs old. Weird.

I have been told by some breeder's in the past that their line's skeletal frame was complete at 6 months old and then later on would fill out. My vet say's skeletal frame is complete between 6 and 8 months is typical with the toy breeds.

Chibi had two sisters's both were smaller than him. One has outgrown him by about 1 1/2 lbs and the other is a tad smaller. Yoshi had two littermates that I saw and the other male was his size and his sister was twice their size. Isnt it fascinating


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Harley's Mom said:


> TLI - thank you for posting that information. It is a very interesting topic indeed. I was told my my breeder that merle chis are generally larger that breed standard so I was expecting Harley to be more than the high end of 6 lbs. Turned out that is the case - he was 7 lbs on Feb 20. Again, I didn't choose him for his size - he chose me. Lucky me.
> 
> Simon is much smaller. If the 12 week "rule" is true he should be about 6 lbs full grown.
> 
> Whatever their size is I have known many a "runt" to far outgrow their litter mates. In return, I have known many a biggie at birth to be a small full grown adult. Apart from genetics, I think it also has to do with how they are raised - what nutrition they are getting especially.


Yeah, even the Breeders speculate when they give you an estimated size at full growth. That's why none of them will give you a contact that states anything regarding their adult size. :wink:

6/7 lb. pups are still small. Just the right size not to step on, and less maintenance. :lol: 



Yoshismom said:


> That is funny that finished growing by 6 months is not the norm, LOL! Both of my boys came from different breeder's Yoshi being from a horrible breeder and Chibi coming from and okay breeder but a byb. And both of them didnt and havent grown any since 6 months old with the exception of Yoshi gaining 8 oz but not until he was after 3 yrs old. Weird.
> 
> I have been told by some breeder's in the past that their line's skeletal frame was complete at 6 months old and then later on would fill out. My vet say's skeletal frame is complete between 6 and 8 months is typical with the toy breeds.


8 months is more typical for their skeletal frame to be finished. Since the smaller ones growth is so minimal anyway, after 6 months it's just not that noticeable. 

If I look back at mine at 6 months old, and now, I notice very little difference as well. But just enough to say that they did indeed grow.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Something else to add. The lady that I know that is a Show Breeder of Chi's, and also a Show Breeder that I met online a few years ago (Turns out they know each other, and the one I met online has one of my friends show boy's pups. Small World isn't it. The one lady lives near me, the other is from PA) both say that they get anywhere from 1/2 lb. to 1 lb. out of their pups from 6 months to 18 months. Lower end for the smaller ones, higher end for the larger ones. This would be the average I'd say.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I dont know about the frame itself but I have been measuring height and weight every month or at least twice a month since I got my boys. Yoshi being at 9 weeks old and Chibi at 4 months old and I havent seen a difference in their height nor their weight? It has been consistently the same and every now and again fluxuates an oz give or take every so often. So wouldnt their height at least change if they were still gaining their frame? I am way curious now, LOL!

I will add that Yoshi was a skinny little guy not unhealthy but still skinny and finally came into his self around 3 yrs when he gained some. Chibi is the same way but with a much more petite and delicate frame. I thought Yoshi was fine boned until I saw Chibi. Chibi is very fragile and so light weight that it is very noticeable when you pick him up. I am betting when he get's older that he will put on a bit as well and it will be a better weight for him also.

I am more familiar with Giant Breeds as I have had Danes longer (Also volunteered with Great Dane rescue for several years) and have been researching them longer esp. genetics as I had two byb boys pass at a very young age so I was meticulous (sp?) in searching for my perfect boy to show.
With Danes they usually reach their full height by 2 yrs old and then fill out up to 3 yrs. They grow much more rapidly than a toy breed and grow for much longer a time. Some line's maturing way faster than other's. I have seen some Fawn lines at their full height Sometimes 38" or more by 8 months old and then other's reach their height by 2 yrs. A lot of Harlequin lines mature way slower and Theismann's line's being much slower. He grew another 1/2" around 2 months ago and he is 2 yrs and 4 months old now. It is taking what seems forever for him to fill out. I have seen a litter's that go to different homes that are fed differently grow quicker than other's (usually the protein level's given as high protein can be very unhealthy for a growing Great Dane pup) One finishing height by 10 months and the other catching up to him at 18 months. I have also seen some littermate's do the same thing but owned by the breeder and fed the exact same thing. I have always found genetics and growth in the breeds very fascinating. Esp. having a Giant Breed (Great Dane) Large breed (Weimaraner) a medium to small breed (sheltie) and the toy breed (Chihuahuas).


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Yoshismom said:


> I dont know about the frame itself but I have been measuring height and weight every month or at least twice a month since I got my boys. Yoshi being at 9 weeks old and Chibi at 4 months old and I havent seen a difference in their height nor their weight? It has been consistently the same and every now and again fluxuates an oz give or take every so often. So wouldnt their height at least change if they were still gaining their frame? I am way curious now, LOL!
> 
> I will add that Yoshi was a skinny little guy not unhealthy but still skinny and finally came into his self around 3 yrs when he gained some. Chibi is the same way but with a much more petite and delicate frame. I thought Yoshi was fine boned until I saw Chibi. Chibi is very fragile and so light weight that it is very noticeable when you pick him up. I am betting when he get's older that he will put on a bit as well and it will be a better weight for him also.
> 
> ...


I don't measure or weigh mine that often. The way I kept up with their measurements is buying clothes for them (that they don't wear, lol) and had to measure for custom made clothes. From 6 months until now, they have grown about 1/2 inch in height and length. Their weight increased by 1/2 lb. from then until now. 

It could be possible that Yoshi & Chibi got longer? I've never heard of them not gaining a little and increasing in size somewhat after 6 months, so I'm not sure. They just decided they had done all the growing they wanted to do, Mom? :wink: I wish I had a more educational answer for you, but unfortunately I don't.

I only know a few people here on the boards, so I'll use Lori's Ivy as an example. Ivy at 6/7 months was about 7 to 7 1/2 inches long. The last measurements I remember seeing from her after Ivy got close to a year old was that she is now 8 1/2 inches long. They are usually about an inch shorter in height than they are length. That's assuming they are built within standard. So their height grows a bit as their length does. My two older ones, Lexie & Chance grew along the same lines as Ivy, increasing at about the same age. That's the only comparison I can give really since I don't know many specifics about any others, and Lexie & Ivy are the same size, and the same body type. Chance is the same size, but he has a stockier build.

I know very very little about large breeds. But I think it's very interesting how they grow so differently than our Chi's. I was quite intrigued by the genetics end of the Chi after getting mine, and also the big size differences between them. So I spent hours researching the topic, and decided the best place to learn was from someone with years of experience, and turned to a show breeder that could help me better understand. I also read up on the color end of the genetics, but it all gets so in depth. At times more info. than you can soak in.

I rarely use Gia in any size examples. She is truly a rare T tiny Chi. I had no idea she'd stay so teeny (standing at about 6 inches tall).


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks Theresa for the info. I've seen a lot of it before but I love reading it again. It helps me retain it. I can't wait to see what size my little Chloe ends up at. Just so curious. 

Great info from you as well, Michelle. Appreciate it very much.


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## giff (Mar 7, 2009)

I've got a girl and boy from same parents but different litters, one's huge, the other's tiny but both were same size when I got them at 12 weeks. I've also got a smooth boy from a big mother and medium father and he's teeny tiny. It's a nice surprise waiting to see how they'll end up, size wise.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Awesome post TLI! Excellent information and a very good read. Is it also possible with chis (I know it is for larger breeds) to conceive some puppies on different days?

My mom's chi was the smallest of his litter at 8 weeks old and grew to be the largest when they all reached adult size.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

huskyluv said:


> Awesome post TLI! Excellent information and a very good read. Is it also possible with chis (I know it is for larger breeds) to conceive some puppies on different days?
> 
> My mom's chi was the smallest of his litter at 8 weeks old and grew to be the largest when they all reached adult size.


Yes, and from different Dad's should the occasion arise. :lol:

Runts (special ones, which I like as well) can easily surprise you.


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## Brenda (Jul 28, 2008)

I have always gotten a kick out of the discussion on size.
Most new people first question is about size.
Then when they are asked if the size of their chi matters everyone says no.
If people were not into the size of chi I do not believe they would market them at "tea cup" "Mico" etc.. They use the selling point that sells, size.
I wanted a chi for two reasons, the size, my first reason, Second being such a devoted(one person) dog.
I found Tonka and my first question was how big will he get and how big were his parents. I wanted him to be around four pound. When he hit four pound I just kept hoping he would stop growing. I ended up with an 7.8 pound chi thatwas charted to be about 4 lbs.
Until a few weeks ago I still wanted a 4 lbs chi to go along with my loved 7.8 pound chi. This week has changed my mind. He seem much smaller out in the world then he does in my house. Taking Tonka for walks now that the weather is finally is nice has made me change my mind, I am glad he is 7.8 pounds. It is hard to take him for a walk and not step on him. 
Little did I know, I ended up with such a wonderful breed of dog and a dog that is just the right size for me.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Yes, I think many people do care about their Chi's size, otherwise it wouldn't be such a hot topic. I see so many discussions on what size will they be grown, when do they stop growing, etc. 

After I got Lexie and started researching Chi's (I know, backwards huh, lol) I started seeing all of the stuff about size. I also had so many start asking how I got a "teacup." (Yes I know there is no such a thing) Didn't know what to tell them cause I had no idea she was considered smaller than the average Bear (Chi). 

I wasn't sure what I wanted as far as size went when I got my first, because I didn't know anything about dogs really. As far as what weight I wanted them at, I really couldn't have told you that either because I didn't know what was what. :lol: 

I ended up with 3 tiny ones (1 teeny). And I figure that's what I was meant to have since there is no way to know what size they'll be at full growth really. You will read more stories like yours than anything else. And in the reality of it, the tiny ones are very few and far between. Most Chi's these days within standard fall right about 5 lbs. full grown. When I see someone with a 5 lb. Chi, I still think they are tiny. Of course as they get past that they are little bigger, but still so small.


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## Sophie. (Mar 16, 2009)

Great information


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

I am concerned about size, I'm not afraid to admit it. Don't get me wrong though, health and temperament are my first and foremost concerns but size is also a concern as well to me. I am not concerned about size in such a way as I would ever want an uber tiny chi. My reason for being concerned about size is 1) portability (we travel a lot and small dogs are easy to travel with), 2) meeting the breed standard (I'm sorry but I'm tired of seeing so many chi's so far away from the breed standard it's not even funny), and 3) chi's are supposed to be the world's smallest dog so if you ask me it kinda defeats the purpose if your mom's yorkie is smaller than your chi. 

I hope that didn't sound snooty as it wasn't meant to be. Just a few of the reasons that size is of some importance to me. We have a 6.9 lb chi now and love her to bits so that should be proof enough that size is not the most important thing to us, her health and temperament are. Our parents also have a 4 lb, 7 lb, and 8 lb chi and we love them all just the same regardless of size. Ideally I would like something in the 4-6 lb range, but it wouldn't break my heart one way or the other if we got one bigger than that.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

huskyluv said:


> I am concerned about size, I'm not afraid to admit it. Don't get me wrong though, health and temperament are my first and foremost concerns but size is also a concern as well to me. I am not concerned about size in such a way as I would ever want an uber tiny chi. My reason for being concerned about size is 1) portability (we travel a lot and small dogs are easy to travel with), 2) meeting the breed standard (I'm sorry but I'm tired of seeing so many chi's so far away from the breed standard it's not even funny), and 3) chi's are supposed to be the world's smallest dog so if you ask me it kinda defeats the purpose if your mom's yorkie is smaller than your chi.
> 
> I hope that didn't sound snooty as it wasn't meant to be. Just a few of the reasons that size is of some importance to me. We have a 6.9 lb chi now and love her to bits so that should be proof enough that size is not the most important thing to us, her health and temperament are. Our parents also have a 4 lb, 7 lb, and 8 lb chi and we love them all just the same regardless of size. Ideally I would like something in the 4-6 lb range, but it wouldn't break my heart one way or the other if we got one bigger than that.


I agree with everything you said.  You did not sound snooty at all. Just stating how you feel.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I have to admit that when I first got Yoshi that I had researched a bit on the breed when my daughter requested one but I didnt truly research until after I got him.. Mostly because I wasnt expecting to run across my perfect boy and seriously didnt expect him to come from the hands of a horrid breeder. I didnt really expect him to be as small as he is either, esp. with his parents being more than twice his size. Now with Chibi his parents were 4 lbs so I really didnt expect him to be that small either. I guess I too was one that was meant for smaller guys? Now I will say that with my life style it does make it easier on me to take my guys with me. I am so afraid of house fires and such that I would rather them come with me (I am a worry wart) They easily fit in my back pack when I go to shows and they do not make any noise so it works out well. Now that I have started looking (a bit) at possibly a third I cant say that another tiny boy wouldnt work out better although 3 may be tough anyways. It would have to be a bigger back pack and lots more weight, LOL ;-)


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

huskyluv said:


> I am concerned about size, I'm not afraid to admit it. Don't get me wrong though, health and temperament are my first and foremost concerns but size is also a concern as well to me. I am not concerned about size in such a way as I would ever want an uber tiny chi. My reason for being concerned about size is 1) portability (we travel a lot and small dogs are easy to travel with), 2) meeting the breed standard (I'm sorry but I'm tired of seeing so many chi's so far away from the breed standard it's not even funny), and 3) chi's are supposed to be the world's smallest dog so if you ask me it kinda defeats the purpose if your mom's yorkie is smaller than your chi.
> 
> I hope that didn't sound snooty as it wasn't meant to be. Just a few of the reasons that size is of some importance to me. We have a 6.9 lb chi now and love her to bits so that should be proof enough that size is not the most important thing to us, her health and temperament are. Our parents also have a 4 lb, 7 lb, and 8 lb chi and we love them all just the same regardless of size. Ideally I would like something in the 4-6 lb range, but it wouldn't break my heart one way or the other if we got one bigger than that.


I am so glad to hear someone else say that. I love all chi's okay??? But when someone thinks a 3 lb. chi is a "tiny", that's crazy. (Theresa, I do think yours are petite cuz of their bone structure.) That falls right within the breed standard. Now Gia, at 2 lbs. and fine boned like she is, at her age is a "tiny". But when you hear of these people with 8 and 9 lb. chi's telling you that there dog is "healthier" and any smaller would make them nervous, why did they get a chi, then? I love the fact that she put this together because it's great info and 2 can weigh the same and feel very different depending on their build. I agree with you. I love having my 4 lb. chi and god knows what this little demon is going to end up at but I got them to take them around town with me and to go shopping and all that. 





Yoshismom said:


> I have to admit that when I first got Yoshi that I had researched a bit on the breed when my daughter requested one but I didnt truly research until after I got him.. Mostly because I wasnt expecting to run across my perfect boy and seriously didnt expect him to come from the hands of a horrid breeder. I didnt really expect him to be as small as he is either, esp. with his parents being more than twice his size. Now with Chibi his parents were 4 lbs so I really didnt expect him to be that small either. I guess I too was one that was meant for smaller guys? Now I will say that with my life style it does make it easier on me to take my guys with me. I am so afraid of house fires and such that I would rather them come with me (I am a worry wart) They easily fit in my back pack when I go to shows and they do not make any noise so it works out well. Now that I have started looking (a bit) at possibly a third I cant say that another tiny boy wouldnt work out better although 3 may be tough anyways. It would have to be a bigger back pack and lots more weight, LOL ;-)


Michelle, ya never know. One more 3 lber. and you're still under 10 lbs. total.  I totally know what you mean though. I carry mine everywhere and if they weighed much more, it would be harder. My mini doxie is only 7 lbs. or so and he is getting quite heavy to tote around.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Yoshismom said:


> I have to admit that when I first got Yoshi that I had researched a bit on the breed when my daughter requested one but I didnt truly research until after I got him.. Mostly because I wasnt expecting to run across my perfect boy and seriously didnt expect him to come from the hands of a horrid breeder. I didnt really expect him to be as small as he is either, esp. with his parents being more than twice his size. Now with Chibi his parents were 4 lbs so I really didnt expect him to be that small either. I guess I too was one that was meant for smaller guys? Now I will say that with my life style it does make it easier on me to take my guys with me. I am so afraid of house fires and such that I would rather them come with me (I am a worry wart) They easily fit in my back pack when I go to shows and they do not make any noise so it works out well. Now that I have started looking (a bit) at possibly a third I cant say that another tiny boy wouldnt work out better although 3 may be tough anyways. It would have to be a bigger back pack and lots more weight, LOL ;-)


I just didn't realize that there was so much info. on dogs; health, nutrition, care, etc. I figured it would work out kinda like having a baby. I didn't get any instructions with them either. :lol:

I'd have to say that yes, you were also a "chosen" one. :lol: Since the tiny 2 and 3 lbers. are not very common, that's the only way you can look at it, right? :lol:

Having 3 isn't so much a weight issue (if they are tiny) but more of only having 2 hands. I can fit all 3 of mine in Lori's VB carrier, but they just all wrestle in there making it next to impossible to carry them that way.

Lori said she would try to come up with a carrier with 3 compartments, all on one strap so that I could carry them all without them being able to fuss in there so much. :lol: You may be needing one of those soon too. :wink:

I have some pics of trying to get them to do right in those slings. I got it from Petsmart, and it was just a joke how they acted in there together.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

TLI said:


> I just didn't realize that there was so much info. on dogs; health, nutrition, care, etc. I figured it would work out kinda like having a baby. I didn't get any instructions with them either. :lol:
> 
> I'd have to say that yes, you were also a "chosen" one. :lol: Since the tiny 2 and 3 lbers. are not very common, that's the only way you can look at it, right? :lol:
> 
> ...


I would love to see the sling pictures. I'll bet that was hilarious. That would be so awesome if Lori could come up with that for you. With yours being that small, you can easily take them all with you, right? Do they bark or anything when you take them? I want to get one of Lori's carriers for my two chi's, can two fit in comfortably or do they bump into each other? Coco is 4 lbs. and Chloe is 1.4 right now, but will be getting bigger.

When Coop comes with us, he is on a leash. I can't drag around a 8-9 lb. doxie, ya know? So it's really just the girls that go shopping and all that.

Okay Theresa, correct me if I'm wrong, cuz you have done so much research and I totally trust your judgement. I have had long talks with my breeder friend about this weight thing and she said although the rare happens and two average pups produce a chi that ends up 8 or 9 lbs., she rarely has it happen.

She has been breeding for 18 years and she shows and titles all her parents and stays within the breed standard, always. Except for the obvious exception to the rule. 

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, are there so many big chi's now because breeders aren't all like Jenn or people are just breeding to breed or what? Why is it so hard to get healthy small chi's now? What's your opinion?


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

rcj1095 said:


> I would love to see the sling pictures. I'll bet that was hilarious. That would be so awesome if Lori could come up with that for you. With yours being that small, you can easily take them all with you, right? Do they bark or anything when you take them? I want to get one of Lori's carriers for my two chi's, can two fit in comfortably or do they bump into each other? Coco is 4 lbs. and Chloe is 1.4 right now, but will be getting bigger.
> 
> When Coop comes with us, he is on a leash. I can't drag around a 8-9 lb. doxie, ya know? So it's really just the girls that go shopping and all that.
> 
> ...


Be back in a few to touch on this.


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## ~*Jessie*~ (Aug 8, 2007)

I'm concerned about size too, Huskyluv.

The chihuahua breed standard calls for chis to be under 6lbs... yes, some do get bigger, but I picked the breed because I wanted a small dog. I didn't want a 10lb dog.

Rylie was charting to end up at 3-4lbs fullgrown... she weighs 4lbs now at 3.5 years of age.

Chloe weighs 5.5lbs at 3 years of age.

Tucker is charting to weigh about 5lbs fullgrown.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

rcj1095 said:


> I would love to see the sling pictures. I'll bet that was hilarious. That would be so awesome if Lori could come up with that for you. With yours being that small, you can easily take them all with you, right? Do they bark or anything when you take them? I want to get one of Lori's carriers for my two chi's, can two fit in comfortably or do they bump into each other? Coco is 4 lbs. and Chloe is 1.4 right now, but will be getting bigger.
> 
> When Coop comes with us, he is on a leash. I can't drag around a 8-9 lb. doxie, ya know? So it's really just the girls that go shopping and all that.
> 
> ...


I take them all with me most every place I go. But carrying 3 Chi's, even with them being small, isn't the easiest thing because they are dogs. :lol: They wiggle, want to turn around, one in one direction, and in another direction. One wants this, one doesn't want the other touching them, etc. Just like little kids. :lol: Lexie always tries to use everyone’s head as a step ladder to get up as high as she can. Gia gets lost in the carrier, and Chance just takes whatever. :lol:

Lori's carriers are awesome! Functional, and gorgeous! Two small ones (no more than 3 lbs. each) can fit, but it depends on how your pups act. If they are still and calm, it would work fine. I can put all 3 of mine in it, but it's like carrying a sack of jumping beans.

Your doxie definitely won't fit. :lol: I just LOVE doxie's! Their little legs are so short and cute!

As for 2 average sized parents ending up with a 9 lb. Chi. Not likely, but easily can end up with 6 lb. pups. Most likely 2 parents of say 4 lbs., having 3 pups, will have 1 pup their size, maybe one ending up at 5 lbs., and possibly a 3 lb. pup, or even a 6 lb. pup. The lady I know that breeds says as many years as she's been doing this, and as many litters as she's had, she rarely gets 2 to 3 lb. adult pups. I know AKC calls for the standard at 2 to 6 lbs., but if you took 100 Chi owners in one room, you might have five pups there that are 2 to 3 lb. adults. They just aren't the common of the breed anymore. 4, 5, and 6 are more the norm, assuming we are only talking about standard. 

Take for instance as many members that are here on the board. How many very small ones do you see? That will give you an idea of how more common the higher end of the standard is, and how many are above standard. 

Some of this has to do with nutrition, and so forth. Also, breeding a female under 4 lbs. is a dangerous deed. You can easily lose them, and if not end up with a costly C-section. Many show breeders line breed because they strive for Chi's within standard and betterment of the breed. This helps keep their pups within standard because they are breeding generations. If they are not line breeding, then each parents genetic background comes into play with their pups.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

I think the reason you don't see as many tinies (3 lbs and under) is because they aren't bred from. The boys are, yes, but a reputable breeder would never breed a 3 pound girl. Just too dangerous and her little size would probably mean just one puppy. Not worth the effort and the risk.

A show breeder is going to sell her tinies as pets only. NOT to be bred from. So basically you are counting on the tiny boys to keep the breed little. Most breeders are shooting for 4.5 pound girls and up to 5.5. The 6 pounders are at the top of the scale and most show breeders wouldn't breed them UNLESS they were extremely valuable to their program and were bred to a small male. 

In my opinion, I think that's why the tinies are harder to find.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Brodysmom said:


> I think the reason you don't see as many tinies (3 lbs and under) is because they aren't bred from. The boys are, yes, but a reputable breeder would never breed a 3 pound girl. Just too dangerous and her little size would probably mean just one puppy. Not worth the effort and the risk.
> 
> A show breeder is going to sell her tinies as pets only. NOT to be bred from. So basically you are counting on the tiny boys to keep the breed little. Most breeders are shooting for 4.5 pound girls and up to 5.5. The 6 pounders are at the top of the scale and most show breeders wouldn't breed them UNLESS they were extremely valuable to their program and were bred to a small male.
> 
> In my opinion, I think that's why the tinies are harder to find.


Exactly.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

And buyer beware when a Breeder says, "Mom is 2 1/2 to 3 lbs." Not likley so. :wink:


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

Yes, that all makes perfect sense. Jenn (my breeder) will only use females between 4 and 5.5 lbs. She tries to keep her breeding males at 3-5 lbs. Thanks for the opinions. I'm always curious about these things.


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