# Should I feed my small breed pup grain free or start out assuming he has no allergies



## dredges

I asked this question on another forum but want to hear what you all think.

I recently brought home a 10 week old Brussels Griffon Puppy 
We named him Quentin.

The breeder was feeding him a mix of Billjack puppy, Kirkland puppy, a spoonful of Caesar or mighty dog and a dab of yogurt.
We didn't like those brands and wanted to get him a better food so off to the store we went.

I previously had fed my 2 chihuahua's Wellness small breed and core so I started to grab their sm breed puppy formula when the store clerk talked me into the many benefits of going grain free and how "Taste of the Wild" was what he recommends etc..

So we weened him on to the Taste of the Wild High prairie Puppy.

I'm not sure if my pup has any allergies or conditions, but I did notice that his super sticky eye mucus has seemed to slowed down, but that could be that I'm cleaning his eyes, and trimming the hair so it's not getting in his eyes, and the breeder wasn't?

So then the Taste of the Wild recall happened about 1/20th in to our first bag and it made me upset, so back to a better food store I went, this time loaded up with research in to what is considered the best 5 star foods etc..

Price wasn't too much of a concern because he's so little and only eats like a cup a day, so...
now I'm in the middle of switching my sm breed pup over to the regular Orijen puppy kibble and he recently has begun to poop a ton, nothing soft or runny but he goes like 8 times a day when he was going maybe 4 times a day on taste of the wild.

Should I be concerned?

The more I research kibble the more confused I get.
Now I'm starting to second guess my thought that he should be on grain free food in the first place.
I mean he didn't really show much signs of being allergic to anything, he does have dandruff but he doesn't seem to scratch much, and the eye boogers, but those were light to begin with...
He scoots after every poop but maybe that's just his thing, I have never had a dog do that before but that soulds like a fiber issue, but he is pooping a lot so I'm not sure.

Can I be doing him any harm by not feeding him "good" grains?

I was really interested in Nutrisource sm/med breed puppy food:
Guaranteed Analysis:

US Metric
Crude Protein (Min.) 32.0% 320 g/kg
Crude Fat (Min.) 21.0% 210 g/kg
Crude Fiber (Max.) 5.0% 50 g/kg
Moisture (Max.) 10.0% 100 g/kg
Selenium (Min.) 0.5 mg/kg 0.5 mg/kg
Vitamin E (Min.) 175 IU/kg 175 IU/kg
*Omega - 6 Fatty Acids (Min.) 3.5% 35 g/kg
*Omega - 3 Fatty Acids (Min.) 0.8% 8 g/kg
*Docosahexaenoic Acid 0.05% 0.5 mg/kg
* Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) (Min.) 100 mg/kg
* Total Microorgansims (Min.) 100 Million CFU/lb**

Ingredients:

Chicken meal, chicken, brown rice, white rice, fish meal (a source of fish oil), oatmeal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), flax seeds, beet pulp-dried, tomato pomace, sunflower oil, natural chicken flavor, dried egg product, etc...etc...etc...

and I have spoken with them and they said they didn't recommend me feeding their grain free line to my pup but to go with the above.

I have also spoken with Fromm.
I am really impressed with their customer service and products, they said I could feed the 4 star line and the 4 star grain free line, but they suggested going with just the plain Fromm gold puppy kibble:
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein 27% Min
Crude Fat 18% Min
Crude Fiber 3.5% Max
Moisture 10% Max
Total Microorganisms 100,000,000 CFU/lb Min

Calorie Content
kcal/kg 4,289.70
kcal/lb 1,949.86
kcal/g 4.29
kcal/cup* 411.84
Ingredients:

Fresh Duck
Chicken Meal
Fresh Chicken
Oatmeal
Pearled Barley
Menhaden Fish Meal
Brown Rice
Chicken Fat
Fresh Lamb
Fresh Russet Potatoes
Dried-Tomato Pomace
Whole Egg
Salmon Oil
.............. etc... etc....
Taurine
Chicory Root Extract
Yucca Schidigera Extract
Sodium Selenite
Vitamins
vitamin A acetate, Vitamin D3 supplement, Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin B12 supplement, choline bitartrate, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, L-Ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate, riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, biotin
Minerals
zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, copper sulfate, cobalt carbonate, calcium iodate, sorbic acid (preservative), ferrous proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, magnesium proteinate, cobalt proteinate
Probiotics
dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried bifidobacterium longum fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried enterococcous faecium fermentation product

Ugh, I'm over thinking this

I have only started mixing in the Orijen, I could easily begin to switch to something else





here is orijen puppy as comparison:
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude protein (min.) 40.0 %
Crude fat (min.) 20.0 %
Crude fiber (max) 3.0 %
Moisture (max) 10.0 %
Calcium (min./max.) 1.5 % / 1.7 %
Phosphorus (min./max.) 1.2 % / 1.4 %
Omega-6 (min.) 3.0 %
Omega-3 (min.) 1.2 %
DHA (min.) 0.6 %
EPA (min.) 0.3 %
AA (min.) 0.1 %
Carbohydrate (max) 20%
Ash (max) 7.5%
Taurine (min.) 0.35 %
Glucosamine (min.) 1500 mg/kg
Chondroitin (min.) 1200 mg/kg
Microorganisms (min.) 120M cfu/kg
pH 5.2
Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), sweet potato, peas, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye* etc.....

other foods of interest are Acana, other 4 star Fromm's, nutrisource performance 30/20 etc...


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## michele

Hi and welcome,i'm in uk so never heard of some of these foods,but i'm sure somebody will come on soon.I feed mine Ziwi Peak raw freeze dried


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## LittleGemma

I've heard that they will poop a lot more when feeding Orijen and Acana. You don't need to feed them as much of it as other kibble. I think it's likely nearly half as much required per feed as other kibble. I've been feeding my girl Acana since we brought her home and she poops about 3 times a day. I just give her about 10 kibbles or so mixed with a spoonful of canned Ziwi Peak three times a day, and often she doesn't even finish each meal. She's 12.5 weeks.


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## jesuschick

I'd say the increase could simply be the change over from foods.

I'll always feed grain free. Not just for the allergy issue (although one of my three has an issue), but because they do not need grain. It is a filler. In small breed dogs, every bite counts. Nutrition is SUPER important. You want everything that your new little eats to make a difference. With smaller breeds, they do not need filler since as you said, they are not eating 8 cups of food a day (or some huge amount) as my friend with a giant Burmese Mountain dog feeds. 

I have noticed that people will humanize their dogs and believe, like small children, that they need grains, fruits and vegetables. Not so. With dogs, unlike small children, balanced nutrition means something very different. It should be balanced for a dog (not a small child's) system. They are very different. Dogs need protein. Their bodies were designed for it.

If I were able to feed kibble, I'd choose Fromm. We tried their Surf and Turf (when my oldest were about 4-5 months) and I felt really good about feeding it. All life stages, grain free, family owned company that manages their own facility. 

Congratulations on your new little one and for being so responsible, concerned and attentive to his health!


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## Audreybabypup

Hello  
I think grain free is really the way to go. Dogs don't really gain any benefit from grains at all so I don't see why feed them. I think Fromm is good, they have about 3 or 4 good grain free varieties. I also really like ziwi peak. Ziwipeak is not kibble but rather a dried raw. It also come in a canned variety. I've heard good things of Earthborn holistics as well. Props to you for looking for a good food for your new friend  I always love to see anyone reach out for good nutrition for their pet.


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## dredges

I traded in the Orijen Puppy for a bag of Acana Wild Prairie grain free dog food.

Champion Petfoods | ACANA | Products

It's pretty rich still, but a little less then the Orijen and grain free, and the price is a lot better, about $1.75 per pound, cost me less than Fromm 4 star.

I'll give it a go and see how he does.


UPDATE:
after settling on Acana I noticed that they updated their webpage and changed the formula for Wild Prairie/ grain free food, I think I'm losing my mind.

ok so what does high Calcium do to puppies? Does it matter for small breed puppies? Because I swear Acana updated their web site last night and changed the formula to 2% min calcium and it now reads nutrition for your Adult dog.
My bag still reads min cal= 1.3, max cal=1.5, but the new pdf reads different.
Am I missing something here?


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## dredges

I don't understand why but the different formulas are because one is from acana dot com and the other one is championpetfoods dot com


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## gravymommy

First, that is a seriously cute puppy.

Second, have you tried Ziwipeak? I could be wrong (and someone please correct me if I am) but it seems like that company tends to keep their forumla steady (they don't seem to mess around with the ingredients like other companies seems to.) My little monster loves it and she has very small, compact stools on this food.

Just a thought (and now I have to resist the urge to get a BG...)


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## Chi Nation

*Try Innova EVO small breed. This what i fed mine before i switched to raw...
Meat- and Poultry-Based Pet Food ? Premium Dog Food, Cat Food, Ferret Food, Dog Treats ? EVO Pet Products 


or Solid Gold for small breeds. This has super tiny bites and for the price its a good choice. Its now manufactured by Crosswinds so recall worries.
Solid Gold Health Products for Pets - Products *


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## EmberLuvu

We feed 4health, but it's not grain free and our dogs have no problems.

But I would definately say grain free is, without a doubt, the best. Something high in meat content (preferably raw, but even if not raw, a good quality kibble with protein around 26-30%, but not too much and with meat MEALS as the main ingredient(s))
Grain free or not is definately an option, but if it seems your baby may have allergies to grain grain free is the best possible thing.


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## ErinL

I would keep with the Origen for now. Often, when switching to a high quality kibble you will see an increase in stool the first week or so. You may also notice a shed after being on it for a bit. This is a natural cleansing process the body goes through. Keep in mind that on something as nutrient dense as Origen, your dog doesn't eat nearly as much. Ex: when we got Kira, a 70+ lb golden retriever mix, the shelter was feeding her wellness large breed. She was eating 4c per day. We switched her to Origen and she ate 1.5c per day until we went to raw. Less fillers= less food needed. Also, in time =less poop. Think of it as Atkins diet for dogs.


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## KrystalLeigh

Maybe they just recently changed their formula? For kibble, we feed our cats Acana Grasslands and our chihuahua Acana Ranchlands. Orijen is also a really great food though.


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## susan davis

The breeder of my puppy (no she is not here yet.) says the tiny breeds NEED some carbs for the blood sugar. She is recommending Bil Jac puppy food. So I will feed her Bil Jac for awhile, then switch over to something like Fromm. Hopefully she'll be here this month. She is small and the breeder wants to make sure 'she's strong enough to fly for 4 hours. She is about a pound now at 11 weeks. Soon hopefully! I can't wait! Sue


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## ErinL

Carbs don't need to come from grains. Ex: peas,tapioca and sweet potatoes are highly digest able sources of carbs. Bil jac is considered a pretty poor quality food. Look at dogfoodadvisor.com for reviews. Plus. Dogs do not really need carbs. They need glucose. Which, in a high quality diet, is provided through protein and fat.


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## 20887

susan davis said:


> The breeder of my puppy (no she is not here yet.) says the tiny breeds NEED some carbs for the blood sugar. She is recommending Bil Jac puppy food. So I will feed her Bil Jac for awhile, then switch over to something like Fromm. Hopefully she'll be here this month. She is small and the breeder wants to make sure 'she's strong enough to fly for 4 hours. She is about a pound now at 11 weeks. Soon hopefully! I can't wait! Sue


Carbs can come from other sources, it doesn't need to be grains.

Bil Jac Dog Food | Review and Rating

If you want to feed a food with grains, there are some better quality ones out there. It looks like the food your breeder recommends has a low rating.


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## susan davis

I will try to change 'Bonnie' over asap after I get her. I don't want to stress her system with changing the food right away. I think Fromm or Now or Go will do fine after the change over. Sue


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## Kayota

I feed grain free because it's better. Even though my dog doesn't -need- it.


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## jen956

*grain free the way to go*

we used to do grain foods the first year until we got more info. Grain is just a filler they don't need. The scooting across the floor is probably due to the anal glands needing to be expelled. After we started Latte on grain-free food, we didn't have so many issues with the anal gland swelling up. Poop becomes more solid which helps with popping those anal glands.


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