# Food ?'s from an enquiring mind..lol



## cherper (May 8, 2009)

I know I think too much haha but anyhoo, after all the reading on the dehydrated I am curious. I have some ?'s.
1. Is the honest kitchen and ziwipeak one in the same or same food diff. companies?
2. Is there any difference between them?
3. How much does it cost to feed?
4. Is shipping expensive?
5. Why is this food supposedly so superior to say a good kibble?
Thanks!


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## LDMomma (Mar 28, 2009)

Honest Kitchen and Ziwipeak are not the same. Ziwipeak is raw. HK is technically not raw.

It's doesn't cost me much to feed HK. It's about $35 every 6 weeks or so for my two dogs (HK)

I think shipping is about $5 for a 4 pound box of HK.

HK is made with human materials in a human food processing plant. You can eat it, if you'd like too. My dogs prefer it to kibble. 

I don't feed Ziwi so I don't know much about Ziwi.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

cherper said:


> 1. Is the honest kitchen and ziwipeak one in the same or same food diff. companies?
> 2. Is there any difference between them?
> 3. How much does it cost to feed?
> 4. Is shipping expensive?
> ...


I'll give you my take. I'm sure others will chime in as well. 

1. Honest Kitchen and ZiwiPeak are different companies. They have different philosophies on food as well. 

2. ZiwiPeak doesn't contain any grains or vegetables. Honest Kitchen does. HK has several different formulations also. I have never fed HK so I can't speak to the different varieties. I do believe that HK is coming out with a grain free line of food soon.

For me, the ingredients in ZiwiPeak speak for themselves ....

Venison - ‘Daily-Dog' Cuisine 5kg/11lb - 1kg/2.2lb

INGREDIENTS: Venison - Meat (min. 65%), Liver, Tripe, Heart and Kidney (min. 19.5%), Chicory Inulin, Green-lipped Mussel (min. 4%), Fish Oil, Lecithin, Kelp, Vitamins and Minerals, Parsley, Naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols, additives: Vit. D3 592 IU/kg, Vit. E 7.4mg/kg, Copper (copper proteinate) 9.8mg/kg. Calories 1794 KJ/100g.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:

Protein (min.)	34%	Ash (max.)	8%
Fat (min.)	26%	Fibre (max.)	1.6%
Moisture (max.)	15%	Calcium	2%
Phosphorus P	1.1%

3. Cost. Well, around here ZiwiPeak runs about $24 for the 2.2 pound bag. That sounds like alot, but it lasts a long time. I don't feed it exclusively, so I don't know how much it costs if that's all you fed. I use it for treats and the occasional meal. 

4. I get Ziwi locally.

5. I feel like it Ziwi is superior because of the ingredients. I like feeding novel proteins like venison and lamb. It is grain free and contains no fruits or veggies, which I feel are fillers and not necessary. I like the company, they are very reputable and have never had a recall. The venison and lamb are grass fed which is a much better product than factory farmed meat. It is a great alternative to kibble for those who don't want to feed raw.

Here's Ziwi's white paper which explains their philosophy on dog food .... very interesting and informative.

http://www.ziwipeak.com/pdfs/2651_Food_Fundamentals.pdf


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## LDMomma (Mar 28, 2009)

Brodysmom said:


> Honest Kitchen does. HK has several different formulations also. I have never fed HK so I can't speak to the different varieties. I do believe that HK is coming out with a grain free line of food soon.
> 
> http://www.ziwipeak.com/pdfs/2651_Food_Fundamentals.pdf


HK has grain-free options. Force (chicken based) and Embark (Turkey based) are grain free. They are coming out with Zeal (fish based) sometime this year.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

I don't know much about hk but I like ziwi. 

Cheryl ziwi is dehydrated raw or mashed upraw if u use the cans it doesn't have added chemicals fats etc like kibble it is all used up by the dog and no grains which the dog doesn't use. If you look at what dogs are... Carnivores and read into what they eat in the wild your results will basically be raw!! It's just raw made a bit easier!!!


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

We are just starting to feed a combination of these two foods. 

We are using The Honest Kitchen "Keen" and "Embark" formulas. "Embark" is grain-free. Both are turkey based, because Bryco is really allergic to chicken, in all forms, cooked or raw  I have one picky eater and three "vacuum" dogs. The picky eater approves. 

The ingredients for the two formulas are...

Keen...
Hormone-free USDA turkey, organic oats, potatoes, organic flax, carrots, cabbage, alfalfa, organic kelp, apples, honey, garlic, rosemary, tricalcium phosphate, choline chloride, zinc amino acid chelate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, potassium chloride, iron amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate.

Embark...
Hormone-free USDA turkey, organic flaxseed, potatoes, celery, spinach, carrots, coconut, apples, organic kelp, eggs, bananas, cranberries, rosemary, tricalcium phosphate, choline chloride, zinc amino acid chelate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, potassium chloride, iron amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate.


The "Embark" is generally recommended for active dogs, puppies, nursing bitches, ...you get the idea. It has a very high fiber content which means slightly more pooing (but they don't stink like kibble poos LOL).

The "Keen" smells delicious to me. I haven't tried it yet LOL but doesn't mean I won't! It has a thicker consistency than the Embark.

Our dogs have only been on these foods for a week, but I am very, very pleased thus far. They really enjoy eating them, and I feel better feeding them a food that hasn't been as heavily processed as even the best kibbles are. They seem to digest easier, and my dogs seem more satisfied after their meals. 

However, I do feel that the protein levels leave a bit to be desired. Embark is 29%, which is fine, but Keen is around 21%. So we just ordered some Venison Ziwipeak to be a part of their diet as well. 

After only a week on this diet, Oakley's tearing has reduced quite a bit. So that makes me happy  I will admit at 6 am when I stumble downstairs to get their breakfast and make coffee, mixing up some Honest Kitchen is a lot for my lazy butt to do. So we are keeping Fromm 4 Star Nutritionals on hand in the Duck version. They do love that kibble and its been gentle on all their systems other than Bryco, so we aren't completely off the kibble wagon yet, hehe...but yeah. It's not that I think their Fromm is a BAD food, I think its great, its just that there is something else that costs around the same, and is better, so...why not? 

As far as cost goes...

A 4 lb box of Keen makes 17 lbs of fresh food. It costs $27.25, so essentially it is $1.60/per pound.

A 4 lb box of Embark makes 16 lbs of fresh food. It costs $43.50 (its their most expensive formula), so a pound of food costs $2.70.

A 5.5 lb bag of Fromm costs me about $12.50. So that is costing $2.27 per pound of food.

A 5 lb bag of EVO Red Meat costs me $18.99, so $3.79 per lb. 

So all in all, cost wise, I would say it is just about even for me, as I was buying EVO and Fromm before, and now we are buying the two formulas from THK.

Shipping from THK is between $5 and $7 and so far I have ordered directly from them as its cheaper than buying it locally, it gets here super quick, too...and we live in the sticks.

We haven't gotten our Ziwi yet, but I will try to remember to let you know how that goes. It will be supplemental to THK for us, though, not our primary food. I just want to get some more "meat" in their diet. 

On another note, many dogs do fine without carbs, but mine get sluggish and lethargic when they are on grainfree foods, which is why even Bryco gets 1/4 Keen/ 3/4 Embark, just to give him that extra punch of energy the Keen seems to give him (on the EVO, he was getting 1/4 Fromm Duck & Sweet Potato).

HAHA this post is becoming a novel. Finally, 3 times a week everyone but Bryco gets a raw chicken wing bone, meat on, for their teeth, and Bryco we are still figuring out what raw bones he can eat, and they also get things added in like cooked or raw egg, cottage cheese, plain low fat yogurt, boiled or raw chicken chopped up, as well as Alaska Naturals "Bear Treats" Salmon oil, and a joint supplement. Each of the add-ins are about 1 tablespoon's worth, so its not a ton, but since I started doing this they seemed like way healthier dogs.

Anyway, hope that answers some of your questions.


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

Most of your questions have already been answered but I just want to add that I've been looking into both of these foods lately myself. I feel raw is best...and have been feeding it since February but it is becoming overwhelming for me as of late with six dogs.  If I could find all the variety I need locally and didn't have such issues with Mari's beef/bisson intolerence - it would be worth it to stick with raw. But the financial end of it...as much as I've been ordering through hare-today the pricing (what I've figured) should be the same as if I fed ZiwiPeak. I would MUCH prefer to feed ZP because as Tracy also pointed out...I feel fruits & veggies are more of a filler & not a necessary part of dog nutrition.

Saying that...I am thinking I am going to start feeding ZiwiPeak and see how it holds up in comparison price-wise to what we've been doing the past several months. I also want to see how & if Mari can tolerate it okay (we never have tried raw venison or lamb - about two of the only things we've NOT tried LOL). I still plan on doing bone in chicken meals 2 days a week to keep up the dental benefits of raw as well as some eggs & possibly some green tripe now & again. Upon my estimations an 11lb bag of ZP should last my crew (feeding 5 days a week) between 5-6ish weeks. And I can purchase the 11lb bag locally for $104.00US which is a better deal than buying the 2.2lbs bags (which run $25 locally).

Anyway, sorry to ramble. I've just been pondering the same foods & wanted to share my feelings on them. I do believe the Honest Kitchen is cheaper but not quite the same quality IMO. It is definitely a great food, don't get me wrong. I just feel ZP is the best out of the 2 given the options & with only feeding one Chi it would for me be a done deal.


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## LDMomma (Mar 28, 2009)

Why do you guys think that fruits are fillers? 

Every thing I can find says that dogs are carnivorous scavengers and opportunistic eaters not true carnivores and do need fruits/vegetables that are pre-digested for fiber and what not.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

MChis said:


> Most of your questions have already been answered but I just want to add that I've been looking into both of these foods lately myself. I feel raw is best...and have been feeding it since February but it is becoming overwhelming for me as of late with six dogs.  If I could find all the variety I need locally and didn't have such issues with Mari's beef/bisson intolerence - it would be worth it to stick with raw. But the financial end of it...as much as I've been ordering through hare-today the pricing (what I've figured) should be the same as if I fed ZiwiPeak. I would MUCH prefer to feed ZP because as Tracy also pointed out...I feel fruits & veggies are more of a filler & not a necessary part of dog nutrition.
> 
> Saying that...I am thinking I am going to start feeding ZiwiPeak and see how it holds up in comparison price-wise to what we've been doing the past several months. I also want to see how & if Mari can tolerate it okay (we never have tried raw venison or lamb - about two of the only things we've NOT tried LOL). I still plan on doing bone in chicken meals 2 days a week to keep up the dental benefits of raw as well as some eggs & possibly some green tripe now & again. Upon my estimations an 11lb bag of ZP should last my crew (feeding 5 days a week) between 5-6ish weeks. And I can purchase the 11lb bag locally for $104.00US which is a better deal than buying the 2.2lbs bags (which run $25 locally).
> 
> Anyway, sorry to ramble. I've just been pondering the same foods & wanted to share my feelings on them. I do believe the Honest Kitchen is cheaper but not quite the same quality IMO. It is definitely a great food, don't get me wrong. I just feel ZP is the best out of the 2 given the options & with only feeding one Chi it would for me be a done deal.


Awe I don't blame you chickie, which is why we haven't bit the bullet yet. Especially as I'd like to breed someday, I feel its more responsible to have my bitches and puppies on a more readily "comprehendable" diet to those that purchase them, so that its not...idk, as confusing to explain how to feed the pup, and I'd much rather they be on an Honest Kitchen or Ziwipeak then be put on Pedigree because people had question marks dancing around their heads saying "hey...what...what do you mean you feed your dog raw? I'mma go get me some of that kibble stuff!" LOL.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

LDMomma said:


> Why do you guys think that fruits are fillers?
> 
> Every thing I can find says that dogs are carnivorous scavengers and opportunistic eaters not true carnivores and do need fruits/vegetables that are pre-digested for fiber and what not.


I think the jury is still out on carnivores versus opportunistic omnivores. I do believe they are NOT obligate carnivores like cats and ferrets are. However, the digestive system of the dog is made for meat. 

Just because a dog CAN eat fruits and veggies doesn't mean it should. They can eat cat poop, rocks, or tinfoil too. It doesn't mean they should. Just because they can eat it, doesn't make it OK for them.

But you might say - My dog loves veggies and fruits! Well, yes, they might. There is a high sugar content in those foods. You might see a wolf eating berries off a bush occasionally but that will not be a primary food source for them. Simply stated, their bodies don't need it. They aren't created to process it. 

From the Whole Dog Journal (author Dr. Jeannie Thomason)

Dogs have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice.

Dogs do not produce the necessary enzymes (amylase, for example) to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter since they are carnivorous animals designed to eat meat and bone. Feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food.

Nor do dogs have the friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter–even preprocessed plant matter–are unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 30% or less of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 30% or less of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs.

Here's article you might find helpful and informative ....

http://dogged.typepad.com/doggedblog/2004/11/of_carnivores_o.html

I'd be interested in seeing your sources that dogs can and should eat fruits and veggies. My guess is most of it is by Billinghurst as he originated the BARF diet.


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

flippedstars said:


> Awe I don't blame you chickie, which is why we haven't bit the bullet yet. Especially as I'd like to breed someday, I feel its more responsible to have my bitches and puppies on a more readily "comprehendable" diet to those that purchase them, so that its not...idk, as confusing to explain how to feed the pup, and *I'd much rather they be on an Honest Kitchen or Ziwipeak then be put on Pedigree because people had question marks dancing around their heads saying "hey...what...what do you mean you feed your dog raw? I'mma go get me some of that kibble stuff!" LOL.*


That is an excellent point! Though to be honest I was very hesitant thinking about feeding puppies raw when I get to that point for that very reason. I hadn't decided what I was going to do but you are so right. It's a LOT of info taking in the raw idea when you're already being bombarded with info regarding a new puppy to begin with. I do plan on giving a nutrition info packet when I'm at that point as well & I'm sure I will put a tid bit in there about the options since not many people really know how many options there actually are.

Back to the point. If my circumstances were different & Miss Priss didn't have so many issues & we had more of a variety readily available it wouldn't be so hard & stressful on my already compromised brain (from working graveyard hours). I feel horrible because I know it's the best thing but being other great options out there makes it a bit easier.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Interesting points from a breeding perspective. However, make sure to give out the information and options to the new owners, as MChi suggested, and have confidence in your feeding plan! Most people are willing to learn new things and better ways of doing things. 

As people become more familiar with a species appropriate diet, believe me, they are going to SEEK OUT holistic breeders who go the extra mile. 

If I had a choice between buying a puppy from parents that were minimally vaccinated and eating raw (or HK or Ziwi) or a puppy from parents that were vax'd every year and eating Pedigree - oh man - I know EXACTLY which litter I would choose from! 

I think the best we can do as owners and those who wish to breed, is to educate the public. Let them know there IS a better way to feed our dogs. The dogs will be better off.


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## LDMomma (Mar 28, 2009)

Brodysmom said:


> I'd be interested in seeing your sources that dogs can and should eat fruits and veggies. My guess is most of it is by Billinghurst as he originated the BARF diet.


A few different places. BARF of course. The Dog Food Project and others I can't remember right now. I'm not really sold either way but I tend to think that giving veggies/fruits can't hurt. We don't give grain so that's a non-issue for me. I supplement the HK with different (raw) protein sources.

I met a lady at the flea market that has her dog on a vegetarian diet. I thought that was a little odd.

As a customer, I would much rather get a puppy that is not fed low quality food but there aren't that many breeders that feed quality food. Also, I think people would benefit if they knew that there *are* options other than kibble. People get so caught up in the "no table scraps" rule that they forget that some (most depending on your diet) table scraps are better for the dog than your average kibble.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

LDMomma said:


> A few different places. BARF of course. The Dog Food Project and others I can't remember right now. I'm not really sold either way but I tend to think that giving veggies/fruits can't hurt. We don't give grain so that's a non-issue for me. I supplement the HK with different (raw) protein sources.
> 
> I met a lady at the flea market that has her dog on a vegetarian diet. I thought that was a little odd.
> 
> As a customer, I would much rather get a puppy that is not fed low quality food but there aren't that many breeders that feed quality food. Also, I think people would benefit if they knew that there *are* options other than kibble. People get so caught up in the "no table scraps" rule that they forget that some (most depending on your diet) table scraps are better for the dog than your average kibble.


A vegetarian diet?! Egads. Awful. 

I personally feel that veggies and fruits are fine in moderation, depending on the dog and it's tolerance. I learned my lesson a few weeks ago when I gave Brody some steamed broccoli. He was LOVING IT. Gave him one tiny piece. Then another. He danced for more. OK, one more. Well, we had a major diarrhea blowout to deal with that lasted through the night and most of the next day. He was very uncomfortable and even had an explosive diarrhea in his crate, poor guy. He won't be getting any more broccoli. Ever.


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## LDMomma (Mar 28, 2009)

Brodysmom said:


> A vegetarian diet?! Egads. Awful.
> 
> I personally feel that veggies and fruits are fine in moderation, depending on the dog and it's tolerance. I learned my lesson a few weeks ago when I gave Brody some steamed broccoli. He was LOVING IT. Gave him one tiny piece. Then another. He danced for more. OK, one more. Well, we had a major diarrhea blowout to deal with that lasted through the night and most of the next day. He was very uncomfortable and even had an explosive diarrhea in his crate, poor guy. He won't be getting any more broccoli. Ever.


Awe poor Brody.

I was shocked when she said that he was on a totally vegetarian diet. Well, he gets egg once or twice a week I think she said.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Brodysmom said:


> Interesting points from a breeding perspective. However, make sure to give out the information and options to the new owners, as MChi suggested, and have confidence in your feeding plan! Most people are willing to learn new things and better ways of doing things.
> 
> As people become more familiar with a species appropriate diet, believe me, they are going to SEEK OUT holistic breeders who go the extra mile.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree...I guess my thinking is from the dog's perspective too..."those dogs get chicken bones, but I get...this?" hehe. I want something that will be comprehensible or similar for all the dogs I have, including a lactating or pregnant bitch. Something like Ziwi is perfect, it can sit in a bowl, always available, but something like raw chicken or beef isn't as easy to keep readily available. So its been one of my major thoughts about how I want to deal with things. 

I plan to keep puppies until 12 weeks so that they can be vaccinated once (CORE) at 10 weeks prior to a new home, (I know some don't even agree with that early, but I don't feel right about a puppy leaving with NO protective vaccines, even if they aren't guaranteed full protection by the 10 week shots), but from my point of view, I want them to have 2 weeks to fully recover from it before other stressors are added. They will also get a parvo vaccine at 6 weeks...there is a type of vaccine that was used on Oakley and Trigger that is designed to override maternal antibodies to give immunity earlier. Everything I have read and learned says it works, its called "Neopar". For me, protecting from Parvo is incredibly important. If someone wants to pay for a puppy in full and sign a release, I'd compromise on that, though (edited to add: not on the 10 week, I really believe that is key, the parvo @ 6 weeks). I understand different people have different views. Anyway lol that doesn't have much to do with the food aspect of the thread, but I know what you are saying.

I will definitely give out info on different ways of feeding..., raw, dehydrated, premium kibble, etc etc. If I only had 1 or 2 dogs, we would be raw all the way, but for now HK and Ziwi I think are a good middle ground and are easier on my mind LOL.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Brodysmom said:


> A vegetarian diet?! Egads. Awful.
> 
> I personally feel that veggies and fruits are fine in moderation, depending on the dog and it's tolerance. I learned my lesson a few weeks ago when I gave Brody some steamed broccoli. He was LOVING IT. Gave him one tiny piece. Then another. He danced for more. OK, one more. Well, we had a major diarrhea blowout to deal with that lasted through the night and most of the next day. He was very uncomfortable and even had an explosive diarrhea in his crate, poor guy. He won't be getting any more broccoli. Ever.


Aww poor Brody!
I have no idea why AJ tolerates veggies and fruits etc.. as I type this.. he is in the kitchen eating bits of lettuce that drop down as my kids help my friend make a salad, I swear the dog is veggie obsessed.

I do know that the breeder he came from did not feed puppy kibble.. he was fed cooked chicken, giblets, hearts livers.. you name it! and all kinds of steamed and raw veggies and fruit from weaning.. I guess looking at that after I typed it, explains his tolerance.

I also find however I can feed him most anything and he's got a cast iron stomach. I'm pretty bad.. if I am snacking on something he most usually gets a piece.


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

How are these foods prepared? 
So ziwipeak is dehydrated raw and honest kitchen is just dehydrated without all the preservatives? I feel like what i'm giving her now is a very good quality food, but just wondering about what all the hooplah is?
I am trying to figure out how much it would cost me to feed ziwipeak and how much she'd need/how long it would last. There is no store around here that sells it so shipping would be a must.
I also read a post about it smelling bad, i'm a little worried about that also. lol


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## LDMomma (Mar 28, 2009)

Honest Kitchen is made by adding water then letting it "grow" for 8 minutes. 

Some of the ingredients are organic and the proteins are generally humanely raised animals. 

What are you currently feeding?


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Ziwipeak is little dried jerky type squares from what I've been told...can't wait for ours to hurry up and get here. We will see how I feel about the smell. I don't do smells well LOL.

I think the difference between THK and kibble really is just the amount of processing it goes through, as well as the purposed safety of it as it's processed on the same equipment as say, our breakfast cereals. We started feeding it because Bryco simply wasn't doing well on kibble, even on EVO he was only having stools about 75% as firm as I'd have liked to see. Which...don't get me wrong...was WORLDS better than any other food we'd had him on. With this, we are getting 100% normal poos...100% of the time. That's enough to make it work for us hear, especially considering we aren't spending anymore to feed it than we were to feed kibble. Adding in the Ziwi still will make it a bit more pricey to feed this way but not by much. I feel it's a slightly more "natural" way to feed. Kibble is so so so processed. And I think dogs bodies can get nutrients from it, that's clear, but I guess sometimes ya just wanna try somethin' else, and ou find out it works well


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## Ivy's mom (Feb 15, 2008)

Don't know much about Honest Kitchen , except that none of my girls cared much for it. As for Ziwipeak we have been using if for some time, both the dried and canned and all of them LOVE it. 

Lori


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

LDMomma said:


> Honest Kitchen is made by adding water then letting it "grow" for 8 minutes.
> 
> Some of the ingredients are organic and the proteins are generally humanely raised animals.
> 
> What are you currently feeding?


Fromm puppy gold.


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## LDMomma (Mar 28, 2009)

cherper said:


> Fromm puppy gold.


We were feeding Fromm's Surf and Turf before we made the switch


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## Rico's Mom (Feb 21, 2009)

I was thinking of buying the honest kitchen food as well. Rico eats dry kibble now. He could never eat any type of can food, his stools were too loose. How are stools on the HK food??


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Rico's Mom said:


> I was thinking of buying the honest kitchen food as well. Rico eats dry kibble now. He could never eat any type of can food, his stools were too loose. How are stools on the HK food??


Ours have been GREAT, even sensitive tummy boy Bryco. We started them all on the Embark, which is higher fiber, so I'm sure that helped  They are now half that half Keen, and doing equally as well. There wasn't a kibble on this planet Bryco could eat and have "normal" poos, so we are happy


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## LDMomma (Mar 28, 2009)

Rico's Mom said:


> I was thinking of buying the honest kitchen food as well. Rico eats dry kibble now. He could never eat any type of can food, his stools were too loose. How are stools on the HK food??



 I feel kinda of stupid saying this but my girls have nice poops on HK. They are nice and firm. They also don't stink. Of course, every dog is different.


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## Rico's Mom (Feb 21, 2009)

Glad to hear Bryco is doing better!!! I will order a sample of the embark and see how it goes. Did you mix it in gradually with the old food?


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## LDMomma (Mar 28, 2009)

Rico's Mom said:


> Glad to hear Bryco is doing better!!! I will order a sample of the embark and see how it goes. Did you mix it in gradually with the old food?


I didn't. I just made it and gave it to them. I left their kibble down (we free fed) but they never touched it again after they got HK.


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## Rico's Mom (Feb 21, 2009)

OK...Thanks!!


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

I did a 50/50 mix for two days, then completely switched.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

LDMomma said:


> I met a lady at the flea market that has her dog on a vegetarian diet. I thought that was a little odd.


That makes me really really really angry!!! i'm assuming this lady was a vegetarian or Vegan hereself which is her choice and each to their own..BUT a dog needs meat to be healthy and survive.. i want to take her dog away i think its total cruelty!! Just coz she doesn't want to/like meat shouldn't mean her dog suffers.. seriously give the dog some dog food! ARGH rant over


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## cherper (May 8, 2009)

idk what to do. Leila seems ok with what she's eating, no probs, good normal poos. I dunno:nthink:


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## tricializ (Jun 1, 2010)

I tried the Ziwi and dogs liked it for a grand total of one day. I could tolerate the smell of it for a grand total of one day before I would have to hold my breath before opening the bag (used the dehydrated one..not the cans). The overwhelmingly rich odor of all those organs etc. makes me literally gag. If the dogs had liked it, I could do it, but they didn't like it. I haven't tried HK but use Sojos complete which is similar but not as mashed up (from looking at pictures) as the HK. Both my dogs like the sojos and it smells like a turkey pot pie and the veggies etc. are recognizable. It's dehydrated and you add water and let stand.


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## tricializ (Jun 1, 2010)

LDMomma said:


> People get so caught up in the "no table scraps" rule that they forget that some (most depending on your diet) table scraps are better for the dog than your average kibble.


Interesting. My mom, who is older and very old school saw what I was feeding my dogs and said, "Well, that makes sense (I feed the sojos). It looks like the table scraps that our dogs ate every night while growing up. They didn't do al these dog foods and would give a little meat, a little potato and mash it all up. Dogs loved it and seemed to have a lot less problems. Granted, they don't need the salt and other things we humans put in for taste, but the table scraps probably isn't so bad compared to some of the garbage out there.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

tricializ said:


> Interesting. My mom, who is older and very old school saw what I was feeding my dogs and said, "Well, that makes sense (I feed the sojos). It looks like the table scraps that our dogs ate every night while growing up. They didn't do al these dog foods and would give a little meat, a little potato and mash it all up. Dogs loved it and seemed to have a lot less problems. Granted, they don't need the salt and other things we humans put in for taste, but the table scraps probably isn't so bad compared to some of the garbage out there.


This made me really laugh out loud, the Poodle we grew up with who died pushing 18.. was fed table food.. lol

She always refused Kibble her fave meal ever was Lasagna! Maltese style.. ha ha


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

tricializ said:


> I tried the Ziwi and dogs liked it for a grand total of one day. I could tolerate the smell of it for a grand total of one day before I would have to hold my breath before opening the bag (used the dehydrated one..not the cans). The overwhelmingly rich odor of all those organs etc. makes me literally gag.


I bought our first bag of ZP (Venison jerky type) yesterday and I thought it smelt quite a bit like fish food (flakes). LOL I didn't find it offensive at all...but I guess after feeding actual raw meat & organ (and especially super stinky stuff like green tripe!) it was very mild. :nhappy3:


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

I've been considering switching...I currently feel Orijen kibble, or Evo when I can't get that, or Barking At The Moon when I can't get the other two. 

If I'm understanding what I've read here, with Ziwipeak you don't have to add water, but with HK you do? I realize there are other major differences between them, but right now I'm just trying to understand the preparation aspects of each. It sounds like with HK you have to reconstitute it before you feed it (add water to hydrate it) whereas with Ziwipeak it's in some kind of jerky form, so doesn't require any additional preparation. Yes?


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Tink said:


> I've been considering switching...I currently feel Orijen kibble, or Evo when I can't get that, or Barking At The Moon when I can't get the other two.
> 
> If I'm understanding what I've read here, with Ziwipeak you don't have to add water, but with HK you do? I realize there are other major differences between them, but right now I'm just trying to understand the preparation aspects of each. It sounds like with HK you have to reconstitute it before you feed it (add water to hydrate it) whereas with Ziwipeak it's in some kind of jerky form, so doesn't require any additional preparation. Yes?


Ziwi is most like kibble. You just feed it straight from the bag. Quick and easy. It is little jerky squares. 

Personally, I don't think it has an offensive odor at all. 

HK has to be rehydrated. And some formulas of HK have to have meat added to it. 

Ziwi is all in one, ready to feed.


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

Tracy, have you used it?


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Tink said:


> Tracy, have you used it?


Yes, Ziwi is part of my rotation. I feed mostly fresh raw, but I do have stella and chewy's freeze dried lamb for back up and also the venison or lamb ZiwiPeak. Those are great for traveling when you don't want to bring a cooler or buy meat along the way. 

If for some reason, I couldn't feed fresh raw, I would feed ZiwiPeak. I think it's excellent.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

We're doing a combo of the two, Tink. With THK you mix it to 1 part or 1.5 parts water depending on the formula and let it "sit" for 10 minutes. The dried Ziwi you just feed.

Cheryl, mine were doing great on the Fromm. I still haven't totally written it off. I guess I wanted to give this angle a decent try though. So that's how we got here  I feel like Fromm is one of the few companies left out there that you can trust.


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

I've been researching while I waited for your response (hoping you were still on lol!) and it seems to be a very well reviewed and highly rated product. Jazz seems to have a cast iron stomach, Tango's a little touchy, so I'm careful of that with the foods that I give. Also Tango's poop changes depending on the food. I'm grateful that they both have small, firm, low to no odor poops on the foods I give them. 

How's Brody's elimination when you give him the Ziwi? Anyone else?

Also, how much do you feed? Tango and Jazz each get 1/4 cup total of kibble daily, 1/8th a cup morning and night. If I fed Ziwi, would it be a similar amount? 

I'm trying to determine, amongst other things, how it would work out cost wise for me, compared to what I feed now.


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

tricializ said:


> I tried the Ziwi and dogs liked it for a grand total of one day.


Ok, to reply to this part of your post alone. I figured I'd try two smaller meals of ZP to the pups. Everyone still loves it (and Mari didn't throw it up ***YAY!!!***) except Maya sniffed walked away! Garbage disposal Maya turned her nose up at the very first thing. Granted she's only been fed a diet of fresh meat since being with us...but she's always looking for handouts of anything! Maybe the early morning meal threw her off since I typically only feed once a day in the afternoon/evenings? Hopefully she changes her mind come tonight. If not...she'll get it offered again tomorrow morning. Of anyone to snub it I figured it would be Mari... Geeeeeeeez.

On a positive note I'm SO happy Mari's tummy tolerated it & she seems to love it which is great. She was even able to eat cooked beef the other night? Seems only raw beef (and bisson) her tummy rejects. What a weirdo!


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

Heather, Tango gets a little iffy with some food, but nothing like the issues you seem to be dealing with. It's gotta be hard, especially with all the dogs you have, to find something that _everyone_ will tolerate and eat. I guess it's either work to find that one thing, or start catering to everyone's individual needs and tolerances and prepare separate meals for each. Yeah, that'd be a whole lotta fun.......NOT!


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

Tink said:


> I've been researching while I waited for your response (hoping you were still on lol!) and it seems to be a very well reviewed and highly rated product. Jazz seems to have a cast iron stomach, Tango's a little touchy, so I'm careful of that with the foods that I give. Also Tango's poop changes depending on the food. I'm grateful that they both have small, firm, low to no odor poops on the foods I give them.
> 
> How's Brody's elimination when you give him the Ziwi? Anyone else?
> 
> ...


I've not been out to "scoop" yet today LOL but everyone says stools are the same as feeding actual fresh raw when they give ZP. Very small & hardly an odor. My pups also only poo like once a day on raw. I should have snapped a pic at the feeding guide they had at the store. It was much more indepth than the guide ZP gives you. For a 5lb dog you feed 1/3 scoop - 7.5lbs dog 1/2 scoop. Here is the guide ZP gives: 

http://www.ziwipeak.com/nzl/cuisinefeeding.shtml

It also gives how many meals you get out of a bag at each portion size. The chart the food store had yesterday even gives you a price. I really should have taken a pic of it so I could have made sense out of it. Right now...I'm feeding it & will see how long the 2.2bag lasts between my six. They didn't have the 11lb bags of ZP at the store but I know they can order it in for a better deal ($104 as opposed to $25 for the 2.2lb bag). I'm expecting the 2.2lb bag to last a week (hopefully) between my 6.

Anyway, besides Maya snubbing in this morning :roll: we love it so far!


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

Tink said:


> Heather, Tango gets a little iffy with some food, but nothing like the issues you seem to be dealing with.  It's gotta be hard, especially with all the dogs you have, to find something that _everyone_ will tolerate and eat. I guess it's either work to find that one thing, or start catering to everyone's individual needs and tolerances and prepare separate meals for each. Yeah, that'd be a whole lotta fun.......NOT!


ACK...I typed out a long reply & lost it. HATE when that happens!! 

Anyway, that is exactly what I'm looking for! Something everyone likes & can tolerate tummy wise. The pickiness I can deal with...I'm a harda$$ that way! LOL But it's become so stressful for me to find the variety locally that I need or want with raw. And with Mari's beef/bisson issues...it was just becoming too much. I know some people say that it takes time sometimes for them to adjust to certain sources but I tried many different sources & parts of beef for 3 1/2months & they all made her vomit immediately. The last straw was when she ate .4oz of beef organ (which she can typically tolerate in very small quantities) & she threw up 8 times in a couple minutes time.  The only time she has been able to eat beef in full meal sized amounts was when she was in heat...for whatever reason I have no clue! 

Anyway, if we can feed ZP with out added cost to what we've been spending with raw I'll be happy. If it's more...hubby will insist on finding an alternative so the next step would be the Honest Kitchen. But I'd rather keep the veggies out of their diet so I'm crossing my fingers for the Ziwi! 

Oh & I'd also feed bone in chicken 2 days a week because of the dental benefits of the bones plus it is the pups favorite meal!  It will also help off set the cost a bit since I can get split breasts or thighs for under $1 a pound.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Tink said:


> How's Brody's elimination when you give him the Ziwi? Anyone else?
> 
> Also, how much do you feed? Tango and Jazz each get 1/4 cup total of kibble daily, 1/8th a cup morning and night. If I fed Ziwi, would it be a similar amount?


I haven't noticed any difference in raw poops and ziwi poops. They are all very, very small and nearly odorless. It doesn't have any fillers in it to bulk up the stool. It's mostly meat which is why I like it.

Yes, I would think the Ziwi would be a similar amount to what you are feeding. 1/8 of a cup sounds about right. To be honest, I just dip my hand in the bag and pinch out some between my thumb and first two fingers and give that to him, I don't actually measure it. 

Also, for those with picky eaters. I found by trial and error that Brody will NOT eat Ziwi that is stale. So if I open a bag and accidentally don't ziplock it all the way closed, the little jerky squares get sort of hard. A fresh bag has jerky's that are mostly dry, but a little chewy. When I buy a new bag of ZiwiPeak, I portion it out into sandwich baggy ziplocks and then stick it in the freezer. I take out a baggy when I want to. Oh, and he likes it frozen too.


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

Brodysmom said:


> Also, for those with picky eaters. I found by trial and error that Brody will NOT eat Ziwi that is stale. So if I open a bag and accidentally don't ziplock it all the way closed, the little jerky squares get sort of hard. A fresh bag has jerky's that are mostly dry, but a little chewy. When I buy a new bag of ZiwiPeak, I portion it out into sandwich baggy ziplocks and then stick it in the freezer. I take out a baggy when I want to. Oh, and he likes it frozen too.



We just bought a new bag yesterday...I don't think it was stale when Maya turned her nose up at it because I made sure the bag was sealed tightly. But I had added a bit of water so that may have been a turn off for her. Especially since she just sniffed & walked away. She didn't even try a bite! But I'm just going to give it to her dry from now on. 

If we keep going with the Ziwi & get the 11lb bag I'll definitely portion it up in smaller bags & freeze so it stays nice & fresh.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

MChis said:


> We just bought a new bag yesterday...I don't think it was stale when Maya turned her nose up at it because I made sure the bag was sealed tightly. But I had added a bit of water so that may have been a turn off for her. Especially since she just sniffed & walked away. She didn't even try a bite! But I'm just going to give it to her dry from now on.
> 
> If we keep going with the Ziwi & get the 11lb bag I'll definitely portion it up in smaller bags & freeze so it stays nice & fresh.


I'm hoping the 2.2 lb bag will go a ways for us...we'll see, though. I'm thinking I will do 2/3 Honest Kitchen 1/3 Ziwi. Plus they get protein from the cottage cheese, yogurt, eggs and babyfood I mix in, as well as their raw meals. I'm trying to figure out the best way to feed a healthy diet without breaking the bank lol. After all we're feeding chi's here, not Great Danes. They really eat so little and so at some point you have to step back and be like...ok what exactly am I spending here to feed my pets? I know raw would be cheaper, it just doesn't seem to be what will work here for us. We'll see I guess.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Wow, I can't believe I completely missed this thread!

Well, most everything has been hashed out already but here's my opinion if anyone cares for it. lol

Aside from feeding a raw diet I would say Ziwipeak is _the_ next best thing. Ziwipeak is a fantastic dehydrated raw product that really is second only to a true raw diet, IMO. It doesn't need rehydration and it contains organ meat which is a huge plus. Personally I thought Ziwipeak smelled awful and it really bothered me but the dogs eat it just fine and have nice small, solid stool on it. The only factor that keeps me from feeding Ziwipeak is cost. If I only had chihuahuas I would be more likely to consider it but with a 60 lb husky it simply is not an option for me.

I feed The Honest Kitchen dehydrated food now. The Honest Kitchen foods are only partially raw, the meat products are dehydrated at a temp of 120 F to kill of any pathogens and also makes the product safe for human consumption. The veggies in THK are dehydrated at a temp of 104 F so that they remain in their raw state. So in essence the meat is not raw but the veggies are. Because of that process THK foods are human grade and safe for human consumpution and are even processed at a human food processing facility alongside human food products. I really like that aspect of it and that it is safe enough for me to eat...and yes, I have tried a couple of THK formulas!

THK has 6 dog food formulas, 5 of them are complete (no added meat necessary) and 1 of them requires added meat. 3 of those formulas are grain free and 3 of them contain grain. Their new fish based formula (Zeal) which is coming out soon this year is also grain free. THK products do not contain organ meat like Ziwipeak, I suggested adding organ meat and they are considering it for future formulas but of course prices would jump up if organ meat were to be included in their formulas. I would really love to see organ meat included in THK formulas however their price point is just right for me and a price hike would not bode well for me and I'm sure plenty of others. Unlike Ziwipeak, THK does require rehydration which only takes 5 minutes...not a problem for me. THK does not smell bad to me like Ziwipeak, and their stools on THK are the same as they are on ZP, small, firm and not at all smelly.

I've tried both ZP and THK and had excellent results on both. My short pros and cons list for both:

Ziwipeak-
Pros: Better food, most like raw diets, contains organ meat
Cons: Smells, high price

The Honest Kitchen-
Pros: Good food, more variety/formulas to choose from, doesn't smell bad, great price
Cons: Does not contain organ meat


I always recomend raw diets first and foremost as the best diet for canines. Second to that I recommend dehydrated raw diets. For dehydrated diets I recommend Ziwipeak above all others but price is a limiting factor so The Honest Kitchen is definitely a great and much better priced alternative.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Great post Val! Thanks for chiming in. I wasn't clear on what formulas you are to add meat to on HK so thanks for clearing that up. 

I think it would be hard to go wrong with either of these excellent foods. Or as Kristi is doing - a little of both.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Brodysmom said:


> Great post Val! Thanks for chiming in. I wasn't clear on what formulas you are to add meat to on HK so thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> I think it would be hard to go wrong with either of these excellent foods. Or as Kristi is doing - a little of both.


Thanks Tracy.  I really do love Ziwipeak but it costs way too much for me to feed regularly. I do give it to my dogs every now and then as a treat or mixed in with their Honest Kitchen as an additive which several other Honest Kitchen feeders I know also do a mix of THK and ZP.


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## LDMomma (Mar 28, 2009)

I wish HK had organ meat as well. That's why I supplement the HK with the Nature's Variety medallions. It's not ideal but it works for us.


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## tricializ (Jun 1, 2010)

For those considering HK, have you considered sojos? According to their website, it is raw turkey (the complete one). My dogs love it. The only downside so far it is has to soak for 30 minutes minimum to overnight. Sometimes the dogs get mighty hungry when I forget to mix up some in advance. LOL


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

I've tried Sojos Original as well and considered it about equal to Honest Kitchen. Sojos is a little more expensive than Honest Kitchen which I couldn't justify spending the extra money on something so similar/comparable and I like to mix up my dogs' food every day and be able to do so in 10 minutes or less and I prefer to feed my dogs their food warmed. Sojos is meant to be mixed with water and left to sit in the refrigerator for at least 15 minutes (preferably overnight) and served. With THK I mix their food with warm water and wait 5 minutes, done. No pre-planning necessary, no long waits and no additional heating necessary to give my dogs a fresh, warm meal. Just my personal preference but yes, Sojos is also an option. Grandma Lucy's is another dehydrated raw food that is pretty good, again it is much more expensive and I have not tried it personally but I know others who have and have nothing but good things to say about it.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

I prefer THK because the raw weight of the ingredients still leaves Turkey first whereas in Sojos, its second to Sweet Potato...not that Sweet potato is a bad ingredient at all, I just much prefer meat to be the first ingredient and where the majority of nutrients come from versus a vegetable, granted I bet there's not a huge difference at all. Even still, I feel THK, like most kibbles lacks MEAT...so thus we add it in on a regular basis...just in case


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