# Why are Chi's sold with spay/neuter contracts? Limited Reg.



## dastowers (Mar 24, 2005)

I was just browsing Chi sellers pages. (for the photos) :wink: :wink: 
Any how, I noticed lots of people have limited AKC reg with spay/neuter contracts. These were the upper end breeders (pricewise) plus the Chihuahuas were really close to AKC standards. If a person is going to spend $1400 on a puppy why the h*** can't they have the papers and an intact puppy? Personally I wouldn't breed my dogs. But I never spent $1400 on a puppy either. To each their own. I realize the pat answer is "the puppy isn't a perfect AKC standard so the breeder doesn't want it bred." But most of these puppies are 90% better than most I have seen.
Please shed some light. 
I don't condone BYB, but am just curious about this.

Davena


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## OzzyAndLilysMom (Mar 9, 2004)

Basically they believe that in order to breed it is to better the breed and not just for the sake of it and also it may be if they arent going to be big enough etc - personally I think it is good of them it also helps with over bred dogs etc


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## dastowers (Mar 24, 2005)

Ozzysmom, thanks for the response. I thought of the size problem too, but the weights were for the most part above 5 pounds at maturity. I guess it may have hit me the wrong way. $1400 for a puppy, then not allowing the "buyer" the choice to neuter/spay. What if the buyer wanted a high end puppy to add to a legit breeding program? To answer my own question- Then don't buy from them. Agreed. 
 


Hope I don't sound silly. 

Davena


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## OzzyAndLilysMom (Mar 9, 2004)

lol not agreed - personally I would rather buy from someone like that as it shows they really care for the well being of their dogs :wave: also there is no way to tell at such a young age how precisely they will weigh JMHO


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## dastowers (Mar 24, 2005)

Ozzysmom- I didn't mean that the way it sounded. I think people should buy from them the dogs are gorgeous. Just not a person looking for an addition to the breeding program. That's what I meant.
Sometimes the written word doesn't come across right. :wave:  

Davena


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## luv4mygirls (Feb 20, 2005)

i noticed you mentioned that to you they looked better than a lot you've seen... thing is, there are things you can't see that might be considered a fault such as teeth problems and that can be heriditary.... it is weird that they are going for that much money and are being sold as "pet quality" and not "show quality"...


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## dastowers (Mar 24, 2005)

Yes, I agree. If the breeder know there are problems- why breed that line?
$1400 is alot for pet quality. 

Davena


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## luv4mygirls (Feb 20, 2005)

dastowers said:


> Yes, I agree. If the breeder know there are problems- why breed that line?
> $1400 is alot for pet quality.
> 
> Davena


i do know that sometimes one pup will be born and have a few faults one might only have one and then the others are breed standard and in that case the breed standards should be more and be sold as show quality and the others sold pet quality but usually they go for different prices... 

well that is just what i've seen anyway, i'm no expert at this or anything but it would make sense that way....... another one of my issues with breeding and showing is they say not to breed a bitch that is smaller than 4 pounds yet there have been some show winners that were smaller than 4 pounds, but you can't spay the show dogs and in this case why not if it is dangerous to breed her because she is too small, why keep her intact?? (did i make sense??)


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## dastowers (Mar 24, 2005)

Yes, you made sense. The one site that I am thinking of, specifically, all were with limited Reg and spay/neuter contracts. There had to be at least 18 puppies! :shock: 

Davena


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## chimom (Apr 1, 2005)

I'm not sure exactly why they do this, but I do know it is pretty much standard practice for the "better" breeders who are interested in breeding to improve the standards of the breed. However, I do agree with you, Davena, if I were going to pay over $1,000 for a puppy, then I would want the option to spay/neuter. Would not want it to be a condition of sale. I understand the overpopulation problem, but that just does not sit well with me. Color me stubborn - if I am buying it, it is mine-period.

Course, this really isn't a problem for me as I would never pay that much for a puppy anyway. LOL


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## ilovesadie (Jun 1, 2004)

Here's another perspective, if you buy an AKC puppy with the intent to breed, you will not only dilute the "perfect" puppy pool with "unperfect" dogs, but more importantly to the breeders, you will be potentially taking away business from established breeders. By making you sign a spay/neuter contract you are actually signing an agreement that secures their place in the breeding world. While they are also promoting responsibility by practicing better breeding, spaying, and neutering, you have to wonder if there is the business-side alternative motive. 

Hmm...

-Nate


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## luv4mygirls (Feb 20, 2005)

ilovesadie said:


> Here's another perspective, if you buy an AKC puppy with the intent to breed, you will not only dilute the "perfect" puppy pool with "unperfect" dogs, but more importantly to the breeders, you will be potentially taking away business from established breeders. By making you sign a spay/neuter contract you are actually signing an agreement that secures their place in the breeding world. While they are also promoting responsibility by practicing better breeding, spaying, and neutering, you have to wonder if there is the business-side alternative motive.
> 
> Hmm...
> 
> -Nate



oooo ya know i wanted to say that too but didn't want to offend anyone.....


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## Elevenhounds (Apr 25, 2005)

I have to agree that the spay/neuter decision should be the buyers in this case. Since the dog would need to be intact in order to show in conformation I would think that this would be a factor.

On the other hand, it is my opinion that the AKC shouldn't require a show dog to be intact. But thats just me.


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## ilovesadie (Jun 1, 2004)

luvmypuppet said:


> oooo ya know i wanted to say that too but didn't want to offend anyone.....


I don't think it would offend anybody =) Promoting responsible ownership and reducing pet overpopulation while preserving business in the hands of responsible breeders is ok by me!


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## jlcase (Feb 8, 2005)

I agree...I think I would do that if I were a breeder, at least for the ones that wouldn't make it in the show ring.

But those prices are really high...I don't think I'd pay over $1,000 unless I knew the dog was show quality, and had full registration.


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## nowXorXnever (Jan 19, 2005)

Some of those people will make deals with reputable other breeders or people doing show (can't show the dog if it's fixed.)

But otherwise its for 2 reasons.

1) Maintain good breeding practices - dont know if the people buying are going to do that. Also limit competition of breeders.

2) Save their asses. If they sell people dogs with breeding rights and those people all breed their males 5 times and get DNA tested and it does not match any of the porported fathers/grandfathers then the breeder is f**ked. The AKC will hunt them down and intentionally make them go through hell and people will all sue because now their dogs papers are revoked. This situation happened with a dog I bought. But just think, if they had been selling their dogs on limited registration no one would have ever found out because the problem was with their female dog (females don't get DNA tested.)


Edited to add: The AKC requires the dogs to be intact because the whole point of it is to make sure the dog's personality was because of breeding (not being fixed which does alter it to make them more docile) and also to PROMOTE GOOD BREEDING. They want the winners to be breeding dogs, not the every day dog to be a breeding dog. They don't disallow that because obviously it's profitable with the price of papers and extended papers and all kinds of other crap they try to sell you when you register, but the shows and such are really for the "responsible breeders." The ones breeding according to standard.

ALso add: The prices of chihuahuas have always been based on the size they will turn out to be. That's just a fact. Even people breeding their pet dogs. Sometimes you'll get a deal if the person likes you or is desperate to find a home for the dog, but it's always been about the estimated size of the dog.


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## luv4mygirls (Feb 20, 2005)

nowXorXnever said:


> Some of those people will make deals with reputable other breeders or people doing show (can't show the dog if it's fixed.)
> 
> But otherwise its for 2 reasons.
> 
> ...


number two makes perfect sense.... i just wonder about that don't breed under 4 pounds for a female.... why would they want to put such a small female at risk even if she is a winner?


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## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

I personally thought it also had A LOT to do with the dogs pedigree. When I was sold Nemo I was sold him with the rights to breed with him if I went and had the checks done and had certificates due to his breedline, He was also purchaced as a possible show dog and from what I was told his conformation etc was looking very good just before he died. But that can all change up to the 6 months of age when they are allowed to compete in shows.

I totally agree with show winners or at least dogs from champion winning lines only being used for breeding I think it helps the breed and prevents any inherited problems due to all the checks and certificates the dogs have to have done. My parents own, show and are considering breeding one of our flat coats and they need eye and hip scores done before any stud dog owner would consider being involved.

Sarah


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## nowXorXnever (Jan 19, 2005)

To answer the under 4 lbs question. They usually are gonna look for boys from shows more than girls I think. Because from what most breeders have said they look for big females and small males (for breeding not showing.)


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