# Deer Head?



## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

Hi all! 
I just have a quick question about my mother in laws Chi "Joey".
Joey was bought from a registered breeder with paperwork etc. When we went to pick up Joey I brought Cooper (our chi) along. When the breeder saw Cooper she went on about his head and not looking purebred and that he has been badly bred etc. She also told us Joey could be potential 'show quality' (which i never believed anyway). My question is the older Joey is getting, the more and more I think his head shape is very similar to Coopers! (The long snout etc) And I must note that although it has grown, his head was always this shape even when the breeder had Joey. However I am no expert so that is why I thought I would post some photos; is Joey a 'deer head'? (As I know deer heads can't be show quality) 
Thanks in advance, and I have added a picture of Coops head for good measure hehe! xo


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

Joey and Cooper are both deer heads....even though there is no such category in the AKC breed standard. Neither are show quality, though they are both really, really cute dogs. 

Your MIL's breeder person is full of it.


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

Joey is not what I see of poorly bred Chi's. His snout has a slight slope, but not bad. 

I agree with you. Cooper's head and your babies head are very similar. Only seeing Cooper's one pic I would say that he is not show potential.

Both babies are very pretty and I *LOVE* their coloring and markings!

I will look for a pic of a head shape of one of my girls, just for reference. They are registered but none are show potential, either. They do all have the domed, apple shaped head.


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## Chi Nation (Mar 7, 2012)

If you look in my siggy, the tan color dog is Olivia, she is an "apple head" and the other one is Hotchi, he is a deer head. Yours kind of look right in between but a little more deer than apple. They may not be show quality, but that doesn't mean they are poorly bred. Genetic flaws and health issues play into poorly bred, imo of course. 
They are both handsome little guys regardless of their head shape.


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

My little one's side profile, because she is dark, makes it easy to see against the light quilt. See the defined letter "L" her stop and snout make? Your boy may have a more defined stop, it is hard to catch in photos unless you are specifically holding their head.









...and another:


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

Ahh I see! (They are very cute little heads/noses by the way jesuschick) No one has ever explained it to me as the "L" shape, that makes it much easier to see/understand (This is why I love these forums ). Cooper and Joey definitely don't have that very defined L.

Eastgreenchihuahuas, I do see the difference between your two, they are both adorable! And your right it doesn't make them poorly bred, the breeder was probably trying to just promote herself.

Tink, I totally agree. I also did not know that 'deer head' was now recognised by AKC. Is Jazz a deer head and Tango an apple? (Hard to see just from the one pic) whatever their heads are they are gorgeous!

And thanks so much everyone for the compliments  xo


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

You may find this helpful as well:
Chihuahua Page

Hope (Cream dog) has a stubbier nose, Eden (black and tan) has the "slightly pointed" nose they reference. With both, though, they have the 90 degree angle, versus more sloped, stop.


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

Becku said:


> Tink, I totally agree. I also did not know that 'deer head' was now recognised by AKC. Is Jazz a deer head and Tango an apple? (Hard to see just from the one pic) whatever their heads are they are gorgeous!


It's not recognized!  There was a typo in my original response, which I just noticed a few minutes ago and went back and corrected, which is what made you think they were recognized. I repeat.....they're NOT. Doesn't make them any less cute,  but a deer head shape is not part of the breed standard.

And just to further clarify the whole head shape thing, a very defined "L" shape to the head/stop/snout is not the only thing that characterizes that typical apple head shape of a show quality chihuahua. It's also snout length and thickness. Almost all, if not all chihuahuas who have been shown and have actually placed well have that definitive right angled stop AND a thicker, shorter muzzle, rather than the elongated and more slender muzzle of, for example, my two. 

Here, he's a decent profile picture of them. 









While they both have a fairly well defined stop, their heads aren't as rounded (apple shape) and their snouts are longer and leaner than, say, sweet little Hope's photo above.


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

Agree with Ronni. 

While none of mine could make it in the ring, Hope's muzzle would be preferred over Eden's.


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## 23083 (Sep 22, 2011)

Omg! Those are some super beautiful dogs!


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## Chi Nation (Mar 7, 2012)

Hope is an absolutely beauty! I love that pic of her!


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## AussieLass (Mar 1, 2012)

Hi Becku ... the difference between Chi's in USA and us 'colonies' over here is vast. You'll find far more deer heads here on your home soil than almost anywhere in the world, especially USA, the land of the apple head - I don't know why that is, it just is.

Many Reg'd breeders of ANY breed in Oz are NOT all they're cracked up to be, believe you me - there's only a couple of truly exceptional Chi breeders when it comes to true USA Standard 'type', but I don't know about their gene pool.

I've spent enough to buy a house on fixing inbred dogs from reg'd breeders & nothing (besides desexing & shots) on backyard bred dogs over the years - my 4 Chi's all came from BYB & they're all perfect to me. I've owned/shown many breeds from Akitas, Rotties, Golden Ret's, Stan'd Poodles etc. (until I woke up to the absolute farce it is). Unless you want to show, it doesn't matter a toss what they look like, so long as they're healthy and are the typical Chi _little people _

Reading back over your old posts I would say there's not a doubt in the world your "pet shop" buy is in fact purebred - older aged breeders, one terminally ill - who could be bothered advertising & having strangers arrive at their home at a time like that when it's far easier to take them to the local pet shop on consignment? BTW, it's not at all unusual for a Chi to have 1-2 pups, it can be the norm, with 3-4 being the max (smaller the breed, less puppies). Also, even the best breeders will sometimes get an under/overshot pup, it can come out of the blue from generations long past.

There's many, many more Chi's in Oz with yours & m-i-l's type heads than there are those we see in USA, and even then, the perfect head is quite rare it seems. Fortunately deer head type can result in less problems especially with teeth, breathing etc. The 'apple head' came about via breeders' intervention and that tells me ALL I need to know!


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## Lola's mom 2013 (Aug 25, 2010)

When we adopted Lola at 18 months she sort of had a deers head but now it is apple head. Her snout is only a little over an inch long. She was rescued from a backyard breeder so definitely not show quality I am sure even though she has the chihuahua apple head.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Just out of interest, do you have your own standard in Australia Dee? Or do you use the AKC one?


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

Aussielass that was a really great post, thank you for taking the time to read over my old posts too! It has made me feel a lot better and is great to hear from a fellow Aussie as I did not know that we had many more deer heads here (I guess because almost all of the websites and things I have read about chis have been from America!) But now that I think of it most chis I know here are deer heads. And I am starting to believe that about the registered breeders, a lot just seem to want the money and don't seem to care what homes their precious little pups are actually going to or if they meet standards etc.

And lolas mum, that is very interesting that your baby had more of a deer head at 18months and now its changed. I thought chis (head shape at least) stopped growing at around 12 months. Who knows what coopers will change into! hehe


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## FantasiaFarm (Feb 12, 2013)

Sent you a PM Becku.


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## Moonfall (Nov 16, 2012)

Since we're showing head shapes, here's Douglas. He is a deer head.










But, I prefer this head shape over the extreme apple heads because it is more functional. There is more jaw power, no molera (those just scare me) and his teeth have a much better anchor and are less likely to fall out. He also breathes normally.

Don't worry about being show quality. They're pets and we love them, unless there's a health issue, head shape is just preference really.


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## Bella & The Smidge's Mom (Feb 11, 2013)

Moonfall said:


> Don't worry about being show quality. They're pets and we love them, unless there's a health issue, head shape is just preference really.


My thoughts exactly. My Smidge's mother was long haired deer head and father registered Applehead smooth coat. I can't wait to see how he turns out. Before I went to the breeder I saw photo's of all the pups and funnily enough The Smidge was the last one I would have chosen, but oh my....when I met him I just fell in love with him he had such character. 

It's all in the eye of the beholder and since I'm not intending to show them...my eyes are all that matters me thinks.

Bella comes from a 5 generation KC registered pedigree but to me they look equally gorgeous.


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

Moonfall said:


> Since we're showing head shapes, here's Douglas. He is a deer head.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know where you get your information from, but just fyi, Tango has a fairly significant molera, Jazz a much smaller one, but both have open fontanels, and both are deer heads. Also, two of Tango's teeth fell out at his first cleaning.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 28, 2008)

You usually find that body shape relates alot to head shape too. I have one of each and Adam (applehead) is stocky with short legs and more of a barrel shape whereas Heidi (deerhead) is very slender with long legs and a really noticeable tuck up.
Personally I like both types though!


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