# merle?



## mom 2 Nacho BellGrande (Mar 8, 2009)

What are your guys' opinions on merle chihuahuas? I know a few of you have merle chis. I was looking at some merle puppies and did a little research on it. First I heard that as long as you don't breed two chihuahuas that are carriers of merle, the puppies won't have any health problems caused by the merle. This I read on a breeder's website. However, I read on another site that even if it is just one parent who is merle, blindness and deafness still occur. Also since they believe merle chihuahuas came about by breeding a dachshund and a chihuahua, they say that merle chihuahua puppies will grow up to be quite larger than the chihuahua average of 6 lbs. 

So any opinions on this would be great. I would definitely like to hear from those with adult merles about any health problems they have encountered and about their chi's size. Thanks!


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## Kioana (Mar 1, 2005)

i like merles but some people have issues with them. There has been many heated post about them.

There is a memeber here that has a merle chi that has a common bad merle breeding side effect. Maybe they can give you more info. I think he's the CUTEST merle i've seen, which by the way we need to see more pics of him.

When i was looking for a merle I came across and almost got a puppy that was from a brindle and merle breeding. He was Free , the breeder said that he's likly to be blind and deaf. I wasn't sure i could handle this with my not being home all the time, my pack,our steps, ect. so i had to pass on this puppy . The puppy had one tiny eye.


I'm not sure how merles got here but i like it and it's here now


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## Mom of 4 Chi's (Apr 3, 2009)

Well, I know nothing about merle lines or the problems, if any, that they have. I do think they are beautiful!
I don't think they can be registered by the akc though, but I could be very wrong.
There are a a lot of smart ladies on here that might have some good answers for you.


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## Georgia24 (Jan 18, 2009)

I think the are beautiful- however, stated before, you do need to be prepared for potential health problems. 

**I think the are still recognized by AKC, some areas are trying to put a stop to this.. I'm sure you can find the correct standing on this on the web?


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## Harley's Mom (Feb 5, 2009)

I have a merle, Harley. He is in perfect health. I think that if you are specifically looking for one that you should seek out a reputable breeder who had one in their litter who is willing and able to do the genetic testing to ensure complete health. There are two blood tests that can be done to ensure healthy heart and eyes (I can't remember the names right now but I am sure someone could chime in here with the specifics). 

Yes, merles to tend to run a bit bigger than the breed standard but by how much depends on how the breeding took place. Harley's mom is quite big for a chi but his father is normal size and he is running about 8lbs right now at almost a year old.

I know that as far as the Canadian kennel clubs are concerned, merle is still a recognized colouring but not a desired trait and they frown upon intentional breeding with the merle gene present.

I personally think Harley is the prettiest boy ever with his fawn merle colouring and big blue eyes and I just love him. He is my first chi and what a way to start out with the breed. I am so fortunate that he is such a loving, sweet, snuggly boy. I loved him so much, I went out and got another one!!!


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## Kioana (Mar 1, 2005)

if your looking for a melre i just remembered that i know a breeder that everyone gets there merles from. i don't want to put my foot in my mouth but i think some people here got a few from her


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## N*T*M*4U (Nov 10, 2008)

I love merle...they are beautiful....


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## Demi's Mum (Jan 10, 2006)

I so love merles! I think they are so beautiful and different. I want my next one to be a merle, but I haven't seen any in my area and I can't afford a real expensive one. =( I will keep my hopes up that I will see on around here some day tho!


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## browncat (Feb 5, 2008)

Zoey is my seven month old female merle. She was at the vet yesterday and at 6.2 lbs is in perfect health, though she's obviously bigger than standard. When I picked her up from the breeder at five months old, she was just about the same size as her mom and I figured she might be a big girl. She was actually passed on by several people because of her size but I'm more comfortable with a larger chi, so I thought she was perfect!

Zoey does have AKC papers, but I haven't sent them in yet. Here's a couple of shots of my lovely thick coated merle baby...



















She's getting spayed tomorrow! I'm trying to keep my nervousness in check, but it's tough!


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Merle is a pattern not a colour. Merle x Merle breeding should never be done because although it guarantees merle puppies the health problems are nearly always present in these matings.

All merles should be health tested before being bred from but unfortunately they mostly are not. (BAER) www.lsu.edu/deafness/baerexpl.htm (CERF) www.vmdb.org/cerf.html


Pro merle people say that they are a genetic mutation but in 30 years I have never seen a merle until recently coming from lines shipped in for the US.

Anti merle people say that they originate from crossing possibly a dachie or a sheltie with a chihuahua (which is probably why the size of them is bigger)

Geneticists state that it is impossible to have merles in the breed while pro merle claim it is a gentic mutation.

Love them or hate them - they are NOT a rare colour and shouldn't be treated as one - orignally the first ones in the UK were being price tagged at £3500 - £4000!!!!

To control the pattern in the breed, these countries (kennel clubs and/or breeders) so far have taken action:
Australia (banned registration of merles)
New Zealand (banned registration of merles)
Canada (Merle is now a DQ in the Chihuahua standard)
Great Britain (Merle is now a DQ in the Chihuahua standard)
Germany (Merles can not be shown/bred)

More recently Mexico have also followed suit so it is highly likely that FCI will follow suit as well.

My main grief is that I don't think it is right that some breeders are falsifying pedigrees calling them blues rather than blue merles to get them KC registered.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

jesshan said:


> Merle is a pattern not a colour. Merle x Merle breeding should never be done because although it guarantees merle puppies the health problems are nearly always present in these matings.
> 
> All merles should be health tested before being bred from but unfortunately they mostly are not. (BAER) www.lsu.edu/deafness/baerexpl.htm (CERF) www.vmdb.org/cerf.html
> 
> ...



An enlightening post, thank you 

Personally I don't like the colouring, but that's down to personal preference. I prefer the sable and tri shelties to the merle variety.

Barbara x


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

thanks Barbara. I didn't want to go with the Anti or Pro merle thing. As far as I am concerned if they pattern is accepted in the specific country then there is nothing wrong with it. Apparantly though the % pro merle at the last CCA ballot was very small and had to be recounted a few times. 

A concern I have is that the established breeds which have merles only have a few colours but as chihuahuas have so many different colours how many cryptic merles are out there being mated unknowingly to merles.....


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

There is someone in the North East - pet breeders - who are advertising their dog at stud who is by a known merle, now what happens if someone uses that dog at stud gets merles and finds out that they can't register them....how much trouble would that be.


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## Jetta (Mar 26, 2009)

From what I read recently as of the 31st of March in the UK you can no longer register puppies even non merle if either parent was merle they didn't do this at first because they thought the gene was dominant so if a dog was not merle it couldn't carry the gene but now after much debate they've excepted that it isn't exclusivly dominant so have banned the registration of any puppies from a merle parent. I'll try to track down where I read that statement.

I personaly don't like the dapple pattern of merle and not in shelties either.

I of course don't have anything against cross's but only if they're sold as such not bred into a pedigree breed and sold at extautionate prices as some supper rare pedigree pup.

We're buying a little girl who's bred from a pedigree papillon and a papillon cross chi but she's sold as a cross and priced accordingly. (she's just what we wanted though we are lucky to find her)

It's personal preference really on the apearence but the disshonesty behind the breeding used to make a lot of money that I think was very wrong.


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Jetta said:


> From what I read recently as of the 31st of March in the UK you can no longer register puppies even non merle if either parent was merle they didn't do this at first because they thought the gene was dominant so if a dog was not merle it couldn't carry the gene but now after much debate they've excepted that it isn't exclusivly dominant so have banned the registration of any puppies from a merle parent. I'll try to track down where I read that statement.
> 
> I personaly don't like the dapple pattern of merle and not in shelties either.
> 
> It's personal preference really on the apearence but the disshonesty behind the breeding used to make a lot of money that I think was very wrong.


That's true but you can still register a non merle puppy from a non merle parent who have merles behind them. Also the breeder could just put the wrong colour down on the KC registrations. There is no way of checking because the KC don't check. Plus you also have the cryptic merle who's merling will dissapear.


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## mom 2 Nacho BellGrande (Mar 8, 2009)

Thanks everyone for all your help. The breeder who has the puppy I'm interested in is actually not selling the merles for more than her non-merle pups. Here's a picture of him, I'm going to go see him and his parents on Tuesday.


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## Jetta (Mar 26, 2009)

jesshan said:


> That's true but you can still register a non merle puppy from a non merle parent who have merles behind them. Also the breeder could just put the wrong colour down on the KC registrations. There is no way of checking because the KC don't check. Plus you also have the cryptic merle who's merling will dissapear.


Yes of course they can't really keep on top of it and I do think it's a shame. If you want to breed a cross for whatever reason then by all means do so but to do it this way and mix in with a pedigree breed should never have been done and a lot of people made a lot of money from it I'm sure because of course a cross usualy costs about half the price of the pedigree of the breeds crossed. At least awareness is up now so people should be less likely to fall for a "SUPER RARE SPECIAL LITTLE PUPPY £2000 VERY RARE MERLE FIRST TO SEE WILL BUY!" knd of ad by people out to make a quick buck. people like that make me cross whatever they're selling but with animals it's especialy sad to see them exploited so obviously for money and bred with known problems just for even more money.

But like I said at least people know more about it now and if that's what they want then they can buy with eyes open knowing what they're getting not being sold a false sales pitch.


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## Harley's Mom (Feb 5, 2009)

mom 2 Nacho BellGrande said:


> Thanks everyone for all your help. The breeder who has the puppy I'm interested in is actually not selling the merles for more than her non-merle pups. Here's a picture of him, I'm going to go see him and his parents on Tuesday.


He is delicious! Oh I want him!!!! He is such a pretty example of the merle pattern.


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## SinaBChis (Feb 23, 2008)

I love merles! Obviously as I now have 2  There are problems with some of them but so far no problems here, both mine have been fully checked out and are great. They are both pups but are chrating at 4.5-5 lbs full grown, of course the charts aren't 100% but either way I will love them non the less!


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## pinkglitterybunny (Jul 26, 2008)

i love merles they are too cute they remind me of little mini wolves!xx


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## roughhouse (Mar 1, 2009)

I love merles. I think the pattern is really nice looking. I would love to have a merle someday but I am going to try to have only one chi at a time. HAHAHA (how well do you think that will work?)


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## Harley's Mom (Feb 5, 2009)

roughhouse said:


> I love merles. I think the pattern is really nice looking. I would love to have a merle someday but I am going to try to have only one chi at a time. HAHAHA (how well do you think that will work?)


Umm - have you not read on here how addictive chi's are?!?! 

Really, you can't have just one!


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## jazzman (Apr 8, 2009)

Mateo is the pup of a male merle and a female fawn.
He is in perfect health at 1.5 years. He is unbounded joy.

He is 8 pounds (after the winter) - some of that from
neutering I'm sure, but I don't have an issue with larger chi's

Use a reputable breeder. View his parents, and the dog in person before deciding. Then buy the dog that steals your heart - nothing else matters.


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## carachi (Mar 20, 2005)

merles themselves are cute dogs but i don't agree with the breeding of them. they come with too many problems and breeding merles into merle free lines is introducing their defects and then for hundreds of years to come we'll have randomly blind and deaf dogs every now and then which isn't improving the breed at all.


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## roughhouse (Mar 1, 2009)

Harley's Mom said:


> Umm - have you not read on here how addictive chi's are?!?!
> 
> Really, you can't have just one!


I know! I am already wanting more and I haven't even brought the first one home yet. It is my husband that needs convincing. I am hoping that he will fall so in love after we bring Lolita home that he will let me have another before too long.:coolwink: I do think that two will be the limit though since we do have our pit bull, Bo, and I don't want him to be completely left out (the multiple vet bills would like to be avoided too!).


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

Well I am glad merles have arrived in the uk. I love the merle colouring in all breeds absolutely my favourite colour. I have a merle Great Dane. The KC register merle great danes but you can't show them. Also they don't accept the title merle on the KC papers and they are registered as Harlequin Mismarks. This seems a bit unfair when you see they have blanket banned chihuahuas in this colour. As most of our breeds have some other breed in their distant past bred in to better the breed. [mastiff in Great Danes and also in St Bernards etc.] Harlequin to Harlequin breeding is commonplace but usually results in some merle puppies as it is such dominant colour but can also produce deaf and sight problems in pups. I also have a white Dane [mostly deaf] I hope that people in the uk will be sensible enough not to risk breeding merle to merle and increase the risk of these problems in the chihuahuas. Thus giving the KC more bullets to fire.


Here is my merle Precious


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Linipi Chihuahuas said:


> merles themselves are cute dogs but i don't agree with the breeding of them. they come with too many problems and breeding merles into merle free lines is introducing their defects and then for hundreds of years to come we'll have randomly blind and deaf dogs every now and then which isn't improving the breed at all.


Yes, as animal lovers we should be looking at the bigger picture, not just how much we like the colour of a Chihuahua.

I've always thought that some small part of the appeal of the Chihuahua was the diversity of colour. Surely we didn't need a merle too, along with the implications, not only for that individual dog, but generations to come 

But we live in a society driven by want and demand, regardless of welfare interests. 

Barbara x


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

if the breeders of merles in the UK were so concerned about the health issues why are they still being marketed as "rare" colours with still ridiculous price tags and buyers are NOT being told that they can't be registered in the UK

I do think that double harlequin mating is totally irresponsible if deafness is a possibility. Why on earth would you do that?

BTW it wasn't the KC who banned merles it was the parent breed clubs who asked all members - the members in turn wanted the pattern to be banned in the breed.

Come on it doesn't take a genius to work things out - there are merle pugs and poms now around the world....where did they come from?

The reason why mastiffs are in Great Danes is because Dane breeders used to cross breed them with the mastiff (and they were KC registered with faked pedigree papers) to bring up the bone structure in the Danes. Again, falsifying pedigree's as are the merle breeders now.


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## Jetta (Mar 26, 2009)

As far as other breeds being present in many pedigree breeds to better the breed I really can't see any way that defness and other problems can be attributes that 'better the breed'


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

jesshan said:


> Come on it doesn't take a genius to work things out - there are merle pugs and poms now around the world....where did they come from?


Really? Good Lord, I didn't know that 

I hate to think what the cost....being so rare 

Barbara x


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

The reason why mastiffs are in Great Danes is because Dane breeders used to cross breed them with the mastiff (and they were KC registered with faked pedigree papers) to bring up the bone structure in the Danes. Again, falsifying pedigree's as are the merle breeders now.[/QUOTE]

There are many different breeds that in the distant and sometimes not so distant past were crossed into others to better the breed. this has nothing to do with falsifying papers but to keep alive the types of dogs that people want for all different uses, hunting,herding,companion etc. Otherwise there would only be dogs and they would all be exactly the same. there would be no giants like St bernards and no tinies like chihuahuas.


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## Jetta (Mar 26, 2009)

mad dog woman said:


> There are many different breeds that in the distant and sometimes not so distant past were crossed into others to better the breed. this has nothing to do with falsifying papers but to keep alive the types of dogs that people want for all different uses, hunting,herding,companion etc. Otherwise there would only be dogs and they would all be exactly the same. there would be no giants like St bernards and no tinies like chihuahuas.


How is adding merle gene's and the defects that they carry going to in any way 'better the breed' though?


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

Jetta said:


> How is adding merle gene's and the defects that they carry going to in any way 'better the breed' though?


i wasn't saying it would better the breed if you read my post you will see I was just saying that crossbreeding wasn't just done by people falsifying pedigrees but has been done for centuries in answer to another post that referred to it only bring done on the sly.


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## mom 2 Nacho BellGrande (Mar 8, 2009)

I read on a website that long-hair chihuahuas came about by breeding a standard chihuahua with a pomeranian. Is that true?


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## avbjessup (Apr 20, 2009)

My only opinion is that I think they are gorgeous!!!


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## goddess.rhiannon (Jun 3, 2011)

im new.my name is lisa and i have 3 chi kids w/paws-mya,a white n choc medium hair 8mth old 4.5lb female chi;bleu,a blu merle smooth coat 7mth old male 3lb chi nd sacha,a cream 2 1/2yr old pom.ive read about all the debates on merles.there is a higher percentage of merles who have hearing n seeing problems but chis who r piebald also have these problems.chis,in general,have a higher incidence of breathing problems,hydrocephalus-just like boston terriers have more breathing problems,bulldogs have a higher incidence of c-sections,great danes have more joint problems,etc etc.every breed has some problems.as far as the fact some people think a daschund n chihuahua were crossed about 20yrs ago to get the coloring:1 no one even knows if this is true-it couldve lain silent for years 2 how many breeds got there start this way?


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