# Is This Breeder Wrong? What Are Your Thoughts



## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

I have a question...

Ok.. So when I bought Tia, I was a bit naive... I had never bought a chihuahua before and I had never delt with breeders.

My breeder wanted to charge me $1200 for Tia because she was smaller (a "teacup" as the breeder put, which we know is wrong..) and also because she had champion blood lines and she told me I could show Tia, and also that Tia would not be more than 3 1/2 lbs full grown... Now how could she know something like that?

You and I both know you can't predict a chihuahuas weight that far into the future. And she isn't that weight.. She is 4 1/2 lbs full grown. Which is no bother to me, she's still very small and I love her just the same. But the fact that she made some guarantee about it....

And not only that.. She told me I could show Tia.. And when she was clipping her nails demonstrating to me how to do it, I noticed a bump on her tummy but didn't ask about it because I had no idea if it was normal or not.. I didn't know if it was a belly button, her private parts, I did not know.. And I didn't want to ask an embarrassing question..

I took her to the vets the day after and found out it was a hernia and we had to pay the vet to have it removed.. And not only that, but you can't show chihuahuas apparently that have hernia's..

And the woman never mentioned a thing to me about this bump.. She played on the fact that we were naive..

And now that I want this new chihuahua from her, she wants to charge me $1200 for it again because it is solid white and that is "rare"...

Doesn't it seem wrong to you to charge more for a chihuahua because of its coloring or size? Doesn't it seem wrong to charge more than the breeder spent on it, thus making profit off of it??

She gives them shots and micro-chips them, and they are registered.. But a microchip is only maybe $40 and the shots maybe about $100 (not sure).. I don't know about the registering... But keep in mind this Canadian Dollars.

I've emailed her asking her to lower the price because she knows it will go to a good home, and that to me, is the most important thing and should be to her too (she can't argue that).

And so I have a plan.. I know she is charging me $1200 because she thinks she can get me for that much again.. So what I've done is, I've emailed her using a fake email and inquired about the chihuahua...

I want to see if she charges someone else less for it straight off.. Or, if she still says its $1200, but the person says "no, that is ridiculous..", will she then lower it for someone else who has not yet paid $1200 over there..

I guess we'll wait and find out. But if she's still stubborn, I may have to look for a different breeder unfortunately. Even though I already have my heart set on this particular pup.

What are your thoughts?


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

personally i would NEVER buy a puppy from this so called "breeder"
sounds to me shes trying to take ad much money for her puppies as possible by using all the fad words possible, sounds like a fancy backyard breeder, one not worthy of your time or money.

please dont support this person, stick arou d here a bit, there are lots of people here that can help you find a wonderfull breeder for your next perfect chi baby.

some points in fact.
teacup chihuahuas do NOT exist, any "breeder" using this as a selling point is not repuatable!

while you can give a good estimat of an adults size, its not a perfect science. in my last litter the pup that was the smallest is now almost as big as the biggest and the middle boy is the smallest. i told buyers to expect the pups to be between 3 and 5.5lbs and the smallest is full grown at 3lbs and the biggest full grown at 5.4 you can make estimations but in no way can anyone say this puppy WILL be 3lbs and if its not its your fault...

white, solid or not, while more difficutl to get a pure white it is NOT rare, due to the chi standard if someone could naturally breed a pink with purple polkadot chihuahua it could not be called RARE as the standard is open to any colour, meaning any color is common in the breed.
not only that but 90% of "solid whites" darken as they get older, due to the fact chis dont get their adult coat untill 3 yrs of age, that colour can also change during that time, most whites turn cream/light fawn
white does NOT make a chi rare or worth any more than a black chi.

you were sold a puppy with a hernia...
a RESPONSIBLE breeder will either have the hernia fixed before the puppiy leaves the breeder (this puppy would also be sold on a spay contract due to the hernia)
or the breeder will reduce the price on that puppy due to the cost of repairing a hernia, again that puppy would be sold with a spay contract. a hernia even tiny is not something a good breeder misses. and if they do, it IS something a vet would point out.

i know its hard to resist those cute faces, but every $1200 you give to this person , heck every $5 you give to this person goes to support her obviously none ethical breeding practices.

Tia is a cutie by the way, not sure about show quality, but she looks spoilt rotten and thats what counts.
feel free to ask LOTS of questions!


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

You are absolutely right..

Thank you.. It made me finally get up the courage to tell her about the hernia and what she is doing is wrong.. I sent her an email. 

And I may just contact the vets and try to find the record of the hernia to get her to either pay us back or charge much less. Or both..

I'm not even sure I want it anymore. I am so mad..

I'm going to start looking else where if she can't resolve this.

She almost had me again because I fell in love with that particular chihuahua.. And that's what they get us with. As cruel and as wrong and as sad as it is.. We get caught up with our emotions. And they play on that. And its wrong. And they should be stopped :angry4: 

Another question.... Do your breeders have their entire house full of chihuahuas? This woman sleeps with like 15 of them or something ridiculous. They were all over her kitchen and there were several pens of puppies.

I'm positive this woman makes money off of it.. She's been adding attachments to her house and everything.. Putting new things in with all the money shes been cheating people out of.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

Does anyone know of some good breeders in Canada? I'm willing to drive some where or at least half way. But I wouldn't do that whole shipping thing. Too many scams and wouldn't be good for the puppy if there even is one in the first place .

I live in the Toronto area.. But could always drive.. So if you know any breeders around here?


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## Kioana (Mar 1, 2005)

the only thing i have to add is that it's F'ed up that she won't even give you a "return owner" price. most breeders do that. 

when i got Justice she was 850 with shipping then like two weeks later i went back to get her brother Jasper. so she gave him to me for 350 with shipping becasue i came back.

as far as her haveing 15 chis, i'm mixed about it.


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

The same sort of thing happened to me with Pebbles. I was told that she would be 1.5lbs fully grown. She is six months now and she is around 4.5lb. I went back to the breeder within a week after buying Pebbles and her reply was "if you're not happy with the baby, just bring her back for a full refund!" Of course, I never would part with her. She's our little girl, but it made me mad that this so called breeder sold a dog at a higher than current price (£1250 - and she is not KC registered) because she was going to be small, which she is not. I would guess she will end up at around 5.5lb fully grown. It doesnt affect the way we feel about Pebbles; we love her to bits, but I hate to think that these people are dishonestly taking money from people who know little about the breed. Thing is, I realise it is my own fault, for not looking into the breed enough before buying a Chi! We live and learn don't we???

As for the breeder "making money" I would expect that any breeder would make a little money out of selling the pups. After all, I imagine it is time consuming taking care of the Mummy Chi and the new pups after they are born. Not to mention costly Vet's bills.

I don't know how Canadian money compares to English money, but here in the UK you would be hard pressed to find a KC reg female smoothcoat Chi for under £1500!

This breeder does sound a little worrying, to have not told you about the hernia before you purchased the little girl. As for her being show quality, I thought this was something they couldn't tell until the Chi was quite a bit older. But I'm not an expert, Foxywench and others on here would know more about that. 

I am lucky that I have got a lovely breeder now, who I got Tiani from and I am soon to have another little girl from her in September. She is solid white too!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. There are some very knowledgable people on this site. I'm sure they will be able to help you out with any advice.

Fran.


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

Princess.Is.Natalie said:


> And now that I want this new chihuahua from her, she wants to charge me $1200 for it again because it is solid white and that is "rare"...QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Thats what i was saying before though i deleted it, Fynn was pure white until she was a couple years old her front is still white but her back is now cream coloured.


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## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

I personally would say the breeder is unethical she should have at least told you about the hernia, also anyone who says to you a puppy is show quality before its 6 months old I would be incredibly dubious about buying from. You can have a rough idea but you just dont know.

Try contacting the Canadian Kennel Club 

http://www.ckc.ca/en

for a list of breeders 

Also I found this through googling not sure how up to date they are

*Chihuahua Clubs:*

*Chihuahua Club of B.C.*
Contact: Edna St. Hilaire, President, 2114 Dublin St., New Westminster, BC V3M 3A9
Phone: 604-521-0922

*Chihuahua Club of Canada, The.*
Contact: Edna St. Hilaire, President, 2114 Dublin St., New Westminster, BC V3M 3A9
Phone: 604-521-0922


*Chihuahua Club of Ontario, The.*
Contact: Patricia E. Dales, P.O. Box 291, Elmvale, ON, L0L 1P0
Phone: 705-322-0326


I'm sure some of our Canadian members will be able to recommend good breeders to you


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

a responsible respectable breeder will only have a small number of dogs, yes they will raise them in the house, (anyone with 15 breeding dogs is in my opinion a puppy mill) most responsible breeders will only have 1-2 litters a year so if this womman has pens of puppies most of the time, she is over breeding, it wouldnt suprise me if she breeds her females every heat in order to keep supply for her little buisness.

by the time we take into accounts the cost of showing a dog (in order to prove its worthyness to be bred) all the medical care a pregnant bitch needs (IF your breeding right) the cost of whelping supplies, the cost of raising the puppies, and thats if your lucky, if not add onto that the cost of a c-section, and take into account the average SMALL littersize of chihuhauas, plus vacinations and dewormings and dewclaw removal for the pups, by the time the puppies go home, most breeders are lucky if they even break even...
its few and far between that anyone in the toy breed (or many other breeds) world actually makes any money off breeding...if they do its usually pennies in comparison, usually just enough to pay for the next show and what little profit might be made is usually put directly back into their dogs.
if someones making enough profit out of breeding to make a living off it, pay their bills and put additions on their house...then they are breeding as a buisness, they are puppy farmers, and those are NOT people you want to buy a puppy from.

as lebecron put also, its very difficult to tell a show prospect at 8 weeks of age, most responsible breeders will not even let their chi pups go home till 10weeks at the earliest and while they can have a good idea of which pups COULD be show quality, (they will also usually keep the best show prospect for themselves or their friends) there can be no guarentees untill about 6 months when the dog is old enough to start trotting round the ring.

the same goes for colour....a breeder can give you a general idea of what the adult colour is going to be, but in many cases its impossible to know for sure. many or the solid marked (ie the tricolours and partis) are easy, however sables and solid light colours can change drastically into adult hood.
As i said, MOST "solid whites" turn cream with age, or end up with small patches of cream. Many sables LOOSE all their sabling as they reach adulthood. A chis coat is not mature untill 3 yrs of age, it can change drastically in those 3 years, so if your buying a dog because its solid white, be carefull, its hihgly likely that white will be cream by the time the dog is 1 yr old.
as for weight as i said, a breeder can give you a general idea based on preprinted charts, and the parents weights, however this is NOT a guarentee, as i said, the smallest pup in vixies litter was charting to be 3lbs full grown, hes now a stocky (but not overweight) 5lbs full grown, and her middle girl who was charting at 5lbs is a small 4.2lbs (and not underweight) thats why youll see on most breeders sites no guarrentee for size or adult colour.

i dont have any breeders in your area off the top of my head, but i can certainly take a looksee over this weekend and see what i can find for you.

does this breeder your talking about have a website or something? id love to take alook at her "operation"


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## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I would never buy a dog from a breeder who has already lied to me. Plus Fenders breeder said she gives discounts to people who already bought from her. I email her frequently to ask questions mostly to send pics & updates of Fender. I think all of you need to move to Texas because we have really good prices on chihuahuas lol Fender's breeder told me he'd be around 4.5 pounds grown but she stressed that was not gauranteed because you just never know the fact is he's going to be probably 3.5 pounds.


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## ChiFan (Jul 6, 2007)

As disappointing as it is, I'd seek another TRUSTWORTHY breeder. We got Sasha through a local breeder, and later found her website. It seems she tries for the "teacup" size and seems to charge quite a bit for them, too. But because we didn't want a tiny thing, she gave us Sasha for $350. The Vet told us she was one of the healthiest Chi's she has seen. 

Good luck to you... 

BTW... I didn't know a Chi's coat would change until their 3rd year. Now that I think about it, Trixie has darkened a bit from a fawn color to more red, and Sasha is getting a VERY dark brown stripe down her back. We've got two more years to see what will happen to Sasha!


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

foxywench said:


> as lebecron put also, its very difficult to tell a show prospect at 8 weeks of age...


She wasn't 8 weeks when I bought her actually. She was 5 months old because the breeder was planning on keeping her until she says she realized she would be too small for breeding.

Here is her website: http://kotagekuntry.tripod.com/


Notice how she has no prices listed? She charges differently depending on the puppy, and probably even the customer.

I counted the females and males she owns.. 17 in total..

Come to think of it, I don't even see Tia's dad, Apache, on there. Maybe she sold him?


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

Sorry Natalie, just assumed that she was the normal "puppy" age when you bought her, about 8-12 weeks. By five months I suppose she would have a clear idea of whether the pup would be good for show. Hope you get sorted out with another baby soon, whatever breeder you decide to go with. Once you get your heart set on a Chi baby, it's hard to let go, isn't it??? Fran.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

I don't know what to do.. She hasn't emailed me back yet. But to be completely honest, it may just be easier for me to get this chihuahua from her because I'm so set on it, I know her, I can drive up there.... It's just the price that is bothering me. But after having searched and searched late last night and all this morning, I can say I am so tired..

I'm just hoping she lowers the price.. But if she doesn't, I have other options in mind.


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## Dixie's mom (Jan 3, 2007)

I think that you truly ran into a bad breeder and unfortunately , you have to ask questions even if they seem a little embarrassing to you , or suspisious! Once you saw the bump you should have questioned the breeder, that way you could have found out if she had been taking care of them properly. That price was to unreal also , if you dont have any luck getting your chi , next time ask the questions , I know i did ! Maybe you will find a great breeder who actually does an ethical job with selling chis to people .


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

The pictures look great, why dont you go for them instead?


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## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I think you should continue to look for 1 if you get this puppy you are reinforcing this breeders bad behavior & 2 if something goes wrong with the new pup then what. You know the old saying Fool me once shame on you Fool me twice shame on me.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

sullysmum said:


> The pictures look great, why dont you go for them instead?


Well.. I'm thinking about it. But I really don't like the idea of shipping and I don't think my parents will like it either. They'll just think its ridiculous.

It is saving me some money.. But I think shes trying to make me pay her and then she said she'd pay the airlines, etc... Which means not only am I trusting her with deposit money, I'm also trusting her with the full price of the chihuahua on top of the air line fees...

What if I lost all that money? I just don't know.. I need somewhere I can drive to :\

It's like she wants me to pay for it before I even have it in my hands...


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

Can your friend not take care of the money side for you if you did decide to ship the puppy?


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

sullysmum said:


> Can your friend not take care of the money side for you if you did decide to ship the puppy?


I can't trust someone I haven't met with that much money.. He seems like a nice guy, but I just know him from online.. The only advantage I have of knowing him is that he can take a look for me and bring me photos or videos from his visit.

I wouldn't know if he would just keep it.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

I found Tia's vet bill for having the hernia removed.. It was $317.93 CAD with tax, out of our pockets..

I've emailed her and told her I found it and what the expense of having it removed was.. But I don't know that she'll do anything about it. Or even care..

She may just say it's my fault for not mentioning it to her sooner.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

Omgash.... :shock: I have emailed sooooo many breeders.

I think it is definitely time for a rest..

I tried Michigan and New York because I could drive there or atleast drive half way.

Hopefully I find one 

I'm starting to be less picky about color because I have been killing myself finding that specific coloring for a good price. I'll be a bit flexible if it means everything smoother and easier for me in the long run.

I'll let you guys know if I decide on a breeder and I'll definitely post pics


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## Prosephone (Oct 2, 2005)

Where in Ontario are you? I am in Erie, PA (I breed but not expecting any liters till the New Year. However, I know of quite a few good breeders in Northern Ohio...


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

I found a breeder in NewYork that is willing to meet me at Niagra Falls which is not too far from me.. She's got this cream/white spotted female below available that was born on April 25th 2007. So she's about 3 months now. Let me know what you guys think. She's selling her to me (possibly.. I haven't decided yet  ) for $650 USD and its +$25 if I want her micro-chipped and she wants $65 for gas and tolls to get to Niagra.


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## Prosephone (Oct 2, 2005)

Does the breeder have a website? Is she willing to show you her pedigree?

I always worry about buying a puppy where I will not see the breeders home first...


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

Yes, she does have a website. On it she has her license # listed. I think it has something to do with being able to sell pups in the state of New York?

They are AKC registered and come with papers.. Shots, de-worming, etc.


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## Prosephone (Oct 2, 2005)

Did she offer to give you references? What is her website, if you don't mind me asking?


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## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

She's a cutie sounds like this might be the one


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

Prosephone said:


> Did she offer to give you references? What is her website, if you don't mind me asking?


Yes, she has a guestbook on her website full of comments from past customers, new customers, etc. I've emailed a few of them to ask them what their experience has been, if they got what they asked for, were happy, etc.

However, her prices are all over the place.. I asked her why they were so random and she told me because one of them, the ears wouldn't stand up and she doesn't know they ever will (don't they always stand up eventually??), and the one I want is the price it is because it is pet only (not for show, no breeding).. And then the small one she is selling is $2000... Because shes small? I don't think she used the word teacup, but I think I may know why the price is so high.. Maybe she put it that high to keep just anyone from buying her because it would take a lot to take care of her, and vet bills, etc.

Her puppies in the nursery all $1000 - $1250.. She told me the $1000 ones would not likely be for show, but she puts the price high at the start and then when they get older she can decide what price she wants to give (if she thinks they are show quality, or could breed or not).

I don't know that I really like her methods. I prefer a breeder that charges the same price for all puppies... But I can't be too picky. This chihuahua they have is very cute, and the price is right for me.

I can private msg you the website


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

Princess.Is.Natalie said:


> I can't trust someone I haven't met with that much money.. He seems like a nice guy, but I just know him from online.. The only advantage I have of knowing him is that he can take a look for me and bring me photos or videos from his visit.I wouldn't know if he would just keep it.



Sorry i didnt realise you didnt know him properly either, in that case i change everything i said re him and the second breeder, i think you should try and find a more trusted breeder more local to you,even if it takes longer, could you contact the nearest breed club that way you neednt ship or give anyone else your money.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

sullysmum said:


> Sorry i didnt realise you didnt know him properly either, in that case i change everything i said re him and the second breeder, i think you should try and find a more trusted breeder more local to you,even if it takes longer, could you contact the nearest breed club that way you neednt ship or give anyone else your money.


Yes, I have found one more local if you look above . She's from New York and is willing to drive to meet me.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

*More Pics*

I've got more pictures of her! Here are some older pics. (pics removed)


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

Sorry replied and saw pictures but didnt read last messages.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

OH my goodness . I am soo excited. From emailing one of the people on her guestbook, I came across an even better offer.

This girl that I emailed told me she hasn't actually bought from her yet, however, she bought from Lil' chihuahuas in Ontario last time and they recommended her (the breeder from newyork).

This girl I contacted has a white/cream girl that she is selling for $450 CAD with first shots. She had bought her for breeding but realized she would not big enough, so she is selling her.

She is soooo cute. I am so happy right now. This is far better for me. She lives in Brantford, ON which just under a 2 hour drive from me.. So I can go visit 

She is 12 weeks old, here are pictures:


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## Prosephone (Oct 2, 2005)

She had bought her for breeding but realized she would not big enough, so she is selling her.

I am a bit confused... How old was the pup when she got her? I would assume she has only had the pup for 4 weeks or less since she is 12 weeks old now. Weight does not change much in 4 weeks. You really cannot tell if a dog will be large enough to breed at 8 or 12 weeks. It seems a bit fishy to me!

Why is finding a good quality chi so hard these days!?!?


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

Prosephone said:


> She had bought her for breeding but realized she would not big enough, so she is selling her.
> 
> I am a bit confused... How old was the pup when she got her? I would assume she has only had the pup for 4 weeks or less since she is 12 weeks old now. Weight does not change much in 4 weeks. You really cannot tell if a dog will be large enough to breed at 8 or 12 weeks. It seems a bit fishy to me!
> 
> Why is finding a good quality chi so hard these days!?!?



It was my mistake.. She didn't buy her.. She was her choice of their first litter they had (she bred for the first time). She says she doesn't have her breeders license yet, but is going to get it.

And none of their first litter came with papers because she didn't realize until it was too late, that both the father and mother have to be the same registration (CKC or AKC). She said the mother was AKC and the father CKC.. And that I could look at their papers on the wall when I visited. She says she is going to change the father to AKC, though I don't see why she wouldn't change the mother to CKC instead because she lives in Canada??


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## Prosephone (Oct 2, 2005)

Hmm, well here are my thoughts....


She didn't realize till it was too late? Is that responsible breeding? Sounds like her litter was an oops. It happens, but it leads me to wonder if her sire and dam were health tested? Is she going to give you a written contract with a health guarantee?


Is she talking Canadian Kennel Club or Continental Kennel Club?

As for AKC...

"A Canadian dog must have an unrestricted registration with the Canadian Kennel Club. A transfer of ownership on the AKC's records will only be effected after it is documented that the same change has been made by the registry organization in the owner's country of residence."

HOWEVER:

"A litter whelped outside of the United States is not eligible for AKC registration, but individual dogs from such a litter may become eligible if imported into the U.S."

Sorry I am being such a pain! I just don't want to see you end up with a bad breeder.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

Prosephone said:


> Hmm, well here are my thoughts....
> 
> 
> She didn't realize till it was too late? Is that responsible breeding? Sounds like her litter was an oops. It happens, but it leads me to wonder if her sire and dam were health tested? Is she going to give you a written contract with a health guarantee?
> ...


Err.. I don't live in the U.S? And this was her first litter.. Ever.. She has never done it before, so you have to give her a break. She didn't realize until she got started that she had to change that. She's new to it all.

I'll ask her for a health guarantee.

I was wondering about transferring of ownership though.. If she's not coming with papers where and how does it say that I am the owner?? I'll ask her if thats Canadian Kennel Club not Continental, but I'm sure it is.

Does that mean I would have to send CKC something and get her registered myself? Or can the breeder do this for me?


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## Prosephone (Oct 2, 2005)

You live in Toronto correct? (We like to come up at least once a year to spend a long weekend.) 

It just makes no sense if she lives in Canada and wants to register her dogs AKC because her pups will not be able to be registered AKC if the owners live in Canada. I am not too sure how the Canadian Kennel Club does things as I have never had to deal with them personally. I can ask a few of my Canadian breeder friends if you would like... 

If the dogs are not registered there really is no proof of ownership per say. Your contract will be your proof of purchase and ownership in this case. 

I understand that this is her first litter ever. I just had my first litter in January and I researched everything I needed to know for a good 2 years before I even decided to start breeding. Perhaps I am just a perfectionist? I just feel if you are going to be bringing more animals into this world where tens of millions of animals die worldwide due to over-population, you owe it to your animals to do everything you can to be sure that they are healthy and that you can find them life long loving homes. Like I said I guess I am just a perfectionist... or maybe I just love my animals that much...


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## *Lydz* (Mar 30, 2007)

Princess Is Natalie - I don't know anything about breeding but i would listen to Prosephone as she is just trying to be sure you get a healthy chi who you can enjoy for a very long time. I understand that you are very excited but you have already mentioned 3 different breeders and 2 different pups - you need to use your head instead of your heart  Just be sensible and use your common sense.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

it seems like your in some big rush to get this puppy. STOP, and think about this, youve been taken fro a ride once already. BTW that first breeder, personally theres only 1 female in her entire group id even deem possibly worthy of breeding, she wouldnt know Show potential if it bit her in the *insert bad word here* shes breeding simply for size, she doesnt show (if she did BELIVE me there would at least be some brags on her page about the titles her dogs have brought home) that person, simply put...Back yard breeder beginner puppymill.

the second breeder the one in NY, if the breeder is breeding show quality dogs it does take some time to figure out which pups are going to be close to standard and which arnt, while her prices are a little high for my tastes $1000-$2000 is actually about average for most of the upper tristate. its not uncommon for a breeder to initially list the entire litter high then lower as they get old enough to see which might just be show potential. personally i price all my pups the same, but thats because unless your a breeder i KNOW WELL, ALL my pups go home on a spay neuter contract. its normal to pay a higher price for a female if that fmelae is potentially show/breedable quality, however without seeing that breeders website i wouldnt be able to tell you if you stumbled on yet another Beginner mill

this one your now planning on...while the price is right is a BACK YARD BREEDER. i am a firm beliver that unless you know what your doing BEFORE hand, you shouldnt be breeding. and anyone breeding enough litters to NEED a kennel lisence in any state is breeding too much in my opinion, most good breeders will have 1-2 litters a year, in most states you can have up to 2 litters a year without needing a kennel lisence. the lisence is not needed to breed, but instead needed to permit the number of breeding animals on one persons property and to regulate the care. this "license" is excatly the same as all the puppymillers and comercail breeders have. there is NO difference in license between the "lisences" theres 1 lisence, its a kennel lisence and that kennel status is regulated by how many litters a year a place churns out.
im sorry but this last one seems like someone who got a chihuhaua thought hey shes cute lets breed her and now thinks, hey i made money from this lets do it some more. they have generally no idea...please, start doing some reaserch into what a GOOD breeder actually is.

as for the shipping puppies thing.
It can be safe, it can be a great resource, ALWAYS use PAYPAL or GOOGLECHECKOUT for paying these people, if they will not accept either of these look for a breeder who will. by using paypal, if they dont send you the puppy you dispute and will get your money back. its also safer for the breeder as theres no bounced checks or "oh its in the mail".

i know its hard, but you need to take a deep breath and REALY think about this...
by buying from a REPUATABLE breeder your saving so much money in the long run, rember this breed can live 20 yrs...ALOT can go wrong in that span of time...if you buy from a responsible GOOD breeder, your much less likely to have those unexpected expenses later in life.

From a byb, you dont know if the parents had congential defects, bad knees, hearts, trechea, epilepsy, and worse, all things that dont show for years, and by the time they do...these BYB's dont even remember who you are let alone care.
unfortuatly of that hernia surgery youll never see a penny back of it...and the "breeder" knew the hernia was there, she was relying on you not knowing...thats what they do...Prey on those using their hearts instead of their heads.
be PATIENT, the right one will come along...
if you have your heart set on this litter girl, fine....
but remember, ANYTHING can happen...do you want to take those additional risks to not only your pocket but your heart, that come with buying from breeders who simply shouldnt be breeding.

and NO i will NEVER give irresponisble people who breed their dog without doing the work BEFORE hand "a break" theres no such thing as "it wasnt her fault" or "it was her first time so she didnt know" when there are tiny little lives on the line. remember, by breeding dogs we are playing God. Responsible breeders understand this and accept full responsibility for every life they assist in producing...they make every effort to ensure their "creations" will be as healthy and happy as possible, this often includes hundereds of extra dollars a year on independatn health testing, hundereds on showing, hundereds on planning and prepping for a litter. theres no money to be made breeding properly...these are lives, not toys! Take your time, find one WORTHY of your patronage.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

Yes, I will take my time. I haven't said I would be getting her for sure.. I am still asking questions and nothing will be decided until all my questions are answered and after I have visited her.

I didn't spend $1200 again on a chihuahua from the same breeder. I did my research.. I've been searching non-stop for days for a good breeder with a reasonable price that is close enough to drive to.

What I'm saying is, mistakes do happen. It's human.

I had a car accident with my parents car a week ago.. There were mosquitos in the car, and I got distracted and looked away for too long that I hit the corner of a parked vehicle at night, just after I had left my friends house..

And then last night my sister put the rental car in drive instead of reverse on our driveway, smashed into my moms car infront, and sent it straight through our garage door and into our garage...

I'm not buying without thinking. I am being careful. And there is proof of this in all the questions that I am asking here because yes, I don't know much about CKC or registering because I haven't bred myself.

I doubt I'll ever know the full details of it all until I breed myself. Which I don't plan on doing.. But if you haven't done it yourself, it's hard to know if they're doing everything the exact way it should be done.

So I am asking a lot of questions. I do care, that is obvious.

Thank you for all your input. I'll ask her about the CKC/AKC when and if I go down to visit her.

It's going to be very hard now to get my dad to listen about another chihuahua after he just lost both cars.. We are without a car now..

Here's pictures from last night's event:


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

Awww Natalie, things are not going too smoothly for you at the moment, are they. I bet your Dad is very upset about the car. That's a lot of damage!!!!

Well, just wanted to say, don't let it all get you down. You'll find your new baby real soon. The advice Foxywench gave, is all excellent advice. I've been where you are before, desperate to find a new baby Chi, and using our hearts perhaps a little more than our heads! But it sounds like you are really trying to be careful now, and I'm sure a new baby will be heading your way soon. BEST OF LUCK!! Fran.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

lebecron said:


> Awww Natalie, things are not going too smoothly for you at the moment, are they. I bet your Dad is very upset about the car. That's a lot of damage!!!!
> 
> Well, just wanted to say, don't let it all get you down. You'll find your new baby real soon. The advice Foxywench gave, is all excellent advice. I've been where you are before, desperate to find a new baby Chi, and using our hearts perhaps a little more than our heads! But it sounds like you are really trying to be careful now, and I'm sure a new baby will be heading your way soon. BEST OF LUCK!! Fran.



Well thank you . Yes, things have definitely not been going our way lately. There has been a lot of bad luck with cars as of late, so I would like you all to be extra careful <33.

On Saturday actually, when my dad was chauffeuring (he drives limos on the weekends as a sort of second job), one of the limos broke down in the two-car wedding. So the groom and the bride's brother had to take their own cars..

Well while my dad was waiting by the limo outside the church for the ceremony to be over, he and the other driver saw a shady character (a man wearing shorts) come out of the back of the church. And he was talking to them about the cars and saying how he could fix them up, etc. The other driver let him sit in the back of the car briefly, but my dad watched him like a hawk to make sure nothing was stolen (a woman's purse was back there).

And then the guy left, he pulled out of the church parking lot in a black Honda.. So my dad wrote down the license plate just in case.

And so after the wedding, the groom came over and was asking them if they saw who stole his car...

The guy had keys though.. So they figured out he stole the keys from the back of the church..

And guess what was in the back of the car.. The bride & grooms luggage, traveler's checks, passports, and even the groom's wallet...

All stolen.. So they probably didn't get to go on their honeymoon because the groom lost all his ID, and they didn't have their passports, etc.

And then the weekend before that when my dad was chauffeuring, the breaks went out in the car he was driving! So he had to use the emergency break to come to a complete stop.. He even ended up partially into the cross-walk of the intersection at one point even though he was standing on the breaks, so it was lucky no one was walking there.

He phoned up the company and said he wouldn't drive it with no breaks (obviously), so I think they provided a different car.

But the mechanic said to my dad afterwards, that he was lucky the engine didn't fall out. It was all rusting underneath, where it holds it in.

So yes, a lot of bad luck. I'm afraid to drive again. I'm sure I will eventually.. I am a good driver, we've just been having a lot of unfortunate events lately.

It's horrible . But luckily with all that has happened, no one has gotten hurt, it's just the cars themselves and a lot of money lost.

- I don't know that I'll be able to get this chihuahua that is available for $450 though I'd really like to, because it is a very good price and I can drive there.. However, I may just keep searching and buy one closer to my birthday that does come with papers. If you know of any breeders in Ontario or close by, do let me know <3.


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## freedomchis (Jul 28, 2007)

ahh sounds awful but keep your spirits high it will happen soon just dont rush in with your heart and keep doing what your doing researching and asking lots of questions if any breeders cant answer or say something you know is untrue walk away thats what i have done
good luck


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

I may go visit her tomorrow.. I'm trying to ask about it. Gently.

It's just that tomorrow is the last day we have the rental truck and it's a holiday, so it would be a good time to go up there (parents are free).

But I want to have all my questions ready and was hoping you guys could help me out. I also want to have some idea of what a contract between the two of us should say (not just ownership transfer, but the health guarantee).

For instance, if I got her and took her to the vets and they found something.. I'd need something in the contract that says she'd cover it, or replace the dog if something happened.

Do you have a sample contract I could possibly print out and bring with me?

Also.. Where is there proof that the father and mother she has at her house, had this particular puppy?

If there's no papers, I assume there is no proof.. Should that also be included in a contract?


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## Sidech (Apr 3, 2006)

If you're still looking, I found a 1 1/2 year old, housebroke male, very good looking, 4 1/2 pound male. Was probably bought for breeding purposes, but now they are selling him for 300$. I looked on Kijiji Toronto. Here's the link :

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-pets-dogs-puppies-for-sale-CHIHUAHUA-STUD-FOR-SALE-W0QQAdIdZ19342289

Be careful if you look in Kijij, 50% are BYB or Puppy mills and 45% are plain uneducated people trying to play breeder. Only 5%, maybe less, are serious breeders (which in my link is obviously not, but it might be interesting because the dog is older and you can have him checked by your vet before you buy him).


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## Taylor89 (Jun 20, 2007)

Princess.Is.Natalie said:


> I have a question...
> 
> Ok.. So when I bought Tia, I was a bit naive... I had never bought a chihuahua before and I had never delt with breeders.
> 
> ...



I think you should find another breeder. Also I would get references from your next breeder if you chose to switch. Just ask straight out if the breeder can give at least 5 reputable people she/he has sold to. Ours did not cost that much. And Bo came home with a hernia as well but our breeder pointed it out and explained everything to us. We also had to sign a contract saying we would get ours chis fixed. We got certificates of their blood line as well.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

Taylor89 said:


> I think you should find another breeder. Also I would get references from your next breeder if you chose to switch. Just ask straight out if the breeder can give at least 5 reputable people she/he has sold to. Ours did not cost that much. And Bo came home with a hernia as well but our breeder pointed it out and explained everything to us. We also had to sign a contract saying we would get ours chis fixed. We got certificates of their blood line as well.


Yes, lol. I have been looking for about an entire week now for more breeders.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

Hey again<3.

*sigh*. I received a private message saying most would not buy from a breeder like that, etc.

You guys are right. As cheap as she is, the woman was not going to provide papers or even a health guarantee.. So I could have bought her, taken her to the vets, only to find out she was going to die and the breeder knew this all along and just made $450 off of me.

I'm thinking about visiting Lil Miracles which not only the person in the private message recommended, but also the woman that wanted to sell me this chi.

There's one female short hair still left for $800 as a pet, with papers. I may get her.. Maybe not.. I'm not sure my parents will want to spend that much right now considering, but I don't know? We went to the dealership this morning and my sister paid the damage she did to the truck.. I don't know about my mom's car though..

So I'm going to try to visit them. Wish me luck


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

What about rescuing one of the chihuahuas Prosephone (sp) has put up on here that need a home or is it to far from you,( i know Michigan isnt too far from Canada)?

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/showthread.php?p=343742#post343742


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

Maybe if more information was given? Like is she a breeder? Why does she have all these dogs? etc.

But yes, Michigan is a bit far. I'm looking for places that are about a 2 hours drive or less so we can go have a look.


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## Lin (Jun 7, 2006)

Alisha said:


> I would never buy a dog from a breeder who has already lied to me.


That is the main point in this situation. I wouldn't either.


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## Princess.Is.Natalie (Jul 31, 2007)

chis rule said:


> That is the main point in this situation. I wouldn't either.



And I'm not going to <3. lol. Been looking for other breeders. So no worries


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## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

Well I myself wouldn't buy from someone who use "teacup".
As for have too many dogs, some can care for many and some can't even care for one. it depends on their set up, time at home, help, knowledge, love for the breed......


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## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

White that STAY white are rare. this is a boy that finally got his spot on his back at 5 1/2 months.
this is Cool Whip
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g148/tailwagging/coolwhip2.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g148/tailwagging/coolwhip.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g148/tailwagging/coolandcat2.jpg


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## tiny- dog- luverr (Oct 28, 2005)

I think this cruel and horrible breeder should be reported to the spca.


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## momtonina (Feb 6, 2005)

I did not read all the responses but this breeder absolutely raises a bunch of red flags from me.

A good breeder does not have 15 chis at one time and crates full of puppies all over the house. She sounds like a "backyard" breeder, almost a puppy mill, and as you know, that's not healthy for the mothers involved.

Our breeder only bred Nina's mom once a year, to give her time to recoup after carrying/delivering/nursing her litters. She did have all the litter with the mother and have reign of the house, along with Nina's father. The only time she separated the parents was obviously when the mom was in heat.

I would also worry about the vet this breeder is using; obviously not detecting or failing to mention to a prospective owner that a hernia is present is very unethical. She should absolutely bear the expense.

Your very first red flag should have come when she called her pups teacups. That right there should have alerted you to the fact that she did not know what she was talking about.


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