# Cesar Millan and his methods



## elmopuppy (Jun 7, 2008)

Hello everyone.
Just wondering what everyone's thoughts on Cesar Millan's methods. Particuarly his dominance leader of the pack theory. I have read many differing articles on the matter but I would love to know what other Chi owners think of his theories and if any of you use them or just hate them?
Thanks Kati


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

lol i think that guy is a genius, he seemed to have everything down to the notch when i watched a bunch of his episodes...very cool guy!


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## jeanie brown (Jan 5, 2009)

i really dislike ceaser


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## Chico's Mum (Sep 9, 2008)

I like him. there are things that seems small at first that I didn't take notice of with Chico. Like getting in the sofa or growling at his toy. I tote him now that he has to wight to be invited to the sofa. And now he does not growl at his toys when he play anymore. and if he did I do like a sound and he stops. 

Were working right now with the barking. I used to give him a time out but now I use Cesar Millan why of stopping the barking. It's amazing.


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## *Tricia* (Dec 1, 2007)

I've watched the show and used his techniques to correct little things. For instance, when I would use the microfiber mop to dust my wood floors, she would constantly be biting and barking at the mop. I saw an episode where someone had a problem with their dog attacking the vacuum, so he showed her how to block the dog with her hand and legs to keep him from getting to the vacuum and saying the "chht" thing he does, and sure enough, the dog lost interest and left her alone to vacuum. I couldn't believe it would be that easy, but I did it the next time I was dusting and just kept putting my hand between her and the mop and making that noise, and she eventually just walked away and laid down and watched me. She has never since gone after the mop. I also had a problem getting her to let me catch her (like when it was time to go to bed), so I started saying the "chht" really loud and she would stop dead in her tracks and let me pick her up. Hubby thought I was nuts when I told him that just that noise made her stop until he saw it himself! Now I don't have to do anything other than come walking towards her and she waits for me to pick her up.


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## elmopuppy (Jun 7, 2008)

Why shouldn't they growl at their toys?


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## Chico's Mum (Sep 9, 2008)

elmopuppy said:


> Why shouldn't they growl at their toys?


Because Cesar pointed out that it's a start of aggression. If it does not stop it well get worse as he well do it to people and dogs and can get bad. 

The funny thing is I used to laugh when he growls at his toys. lol


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## guest185 (Oct 27, 2008)

Until someone can prove that his methods are wrong i'll continue to think he is a wonderful, calming influence on dogs and knows exactly what he's doing. I think he's wonderful - and he spends most of his time 'training' the owner, not the dog.


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## jeanie brown (Jan 5, 2009)

i prefer victoria stillwell as ceaser never seems to compleatly finish hes training and also i find him a bit hands on and i have seen owners crying at hes methords,.
victoria has a much better approach but thats just my opinion


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## Dazy Mae (Aug 10, 2008)

I think he does a pretty good job but the only thing I don't like is when he walks a dog and uses his foot to make them stop what they are doing. It's almost like kicking the dog and I hate that. I saw a stupid lady at petco a few weeks ago and she had a G. Retriever pup about 9 mths. old and she was using her foot to back kick him because he would not heel at her side. I was so angry that I ask her why she was kicking the dog and she said she had learned that Cesar did that when walking the dogs. I told her that he did that only to make the dogs stop charging or being aggressive and it was not to be used when the dog was calm on a lease. I told her that working with commands and treats would be the way to get her puppy to respond better. This lady was so ignorant that I don't think she really cared.
Unfortunately this is something that she got from watching his show and she was using this technique in the wrong way....I felt sorry for the poor little dog


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

I've watched Seasons 1, 2, and half of season 3 of Cesar Milan's show. As a personal opinion and preference I do not like most of his training methods and would never use them unless I had such a difficult dog that I might use his methods as a last resort, I doubt I ever would need to though. I use a positive reinforcement training method which has always worked for me on any dog I've come across so far. I am not a fan of Cesar Milan but I do watch the show just to see what other training styles are out there, however I am a huge fan of Victoria Stillwell's (from It's Me or the Dog) training methods.


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## guest185 (Oct 27, 2008)

Nah, she obviously got it wrong. Cesar doesn't kick dogs! I think using a foot is sometimes a safer way to get a message across to a dog - but it doesn't have to be hurtful!


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

I think a lot of reputable dog trainers in the UK frown on his methods and I personally wouldn't let him near my dogs!

I think much of his dominance theory and methods is outdated and has the potential to do more harm than good. While some of his methods may work for some dogs...I think it's worrying that numpties might try them at home.

It's rubbish to say that dogs shouldn't growl when playing with their toys, as long as the aggression is not directed at the owner.

I rate Caesar Milan on the same step as Barbara Woodhouse ~ "Walkies Mr Milan" :wave:
Just my thoughts 
Barbara x


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## Quinn (Dec 11, 2008)

While I think SOME of Ceaser's techniques are alright and he does get certain results, all of his methods are not the way I want to raise my dog, who yes while not human, I do still view as a part of my family. You can become the "alpha" through methods besides force and dominance training. I prefer to use a balance of corrections and positive reinforcement. 
Also different dogs have different personalities and some dogs really can not take harsh corrections, other dogs don't give a rats ass if you pin them down or "bite" their neck.

Also, you don't see other training shows with a warning to "not use his methods at home with out consulting a professional" that on its own is a red flag to me. If you can't use his methods, what is the point of watching a dog training show? To call up Ceaser and get him to fix your dog? I think he is trying to get good messages across to people and he really does CARE about the dogs, but he has a different mindset about them than I do.


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## guest185 (Oct 27, 2008)

I find this all very funny. Besides, as i'd heard said.. "the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what the third one is doing wrong"


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Quinn said:


> Also different dogs have different personalities and some dogs really can not take harsh corrections, other dogs don't give a rats ass if you pin them down or "bite" their neck.



So right there and these methods beg the question "What kind of owner wants to train their dogs using these archaic and pointless methods?"
They'd be better off seeing a good trainer that uses positive reward based training 

Barbara x


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Rosiesmum said:


> It's rubbish to say that dogs shouldn't growl when playing with their toys, as long as the aggression is not directed at the owner.


I have to say I agree with this as well. It is perfectly normal for dogs to growl when playing with toys, although it's the only time I will allow it. If it were to escalate beyond that is when I would end play, but otherwise I would not consider it a concern.


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## lilbabyvenus (Feb 8, 2009)

jeanie brown said:


> i prefer victoria stillwell as ceaser never seems to compleatly finish hes training and also i find him a bit hands on and i have seen owners crying at hes methords,.
> victoria has a much better approach but thats just my opinion


That's basically what I wanted to say. I enjoy watching Ceasar's show, but that's about it, I prefer how Victoria trains dogs.


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## Quinn (Dec 11, 2008)

Dogs even play growl at each other during play, and that can be okay, of course as long as it doesn't escalate into something. I have a dog who is VERY vocal, no matter what she is doing and the second she starts playing and running she starts making insane growling noises. Even when playing with people but they are CLEARLY playful and she never makes an aggressive move at all. You need to learn to read your dogs, not every bark or growl means the same thing. 

Really when dog training I do think to each his own, and whatever you feel comfortable with is ok (well not WHATEVER but you know) for you. I don't think anyone is at liberty to say there is one proven right or wrong method. The owner needs to figure out what works for them and their dog together.


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## Dazy Mae (Aug 10, 2008)

Quinn said:


> Dogs even play growl at each other during play, and that can be okay, of course as long as it doesn't escalate into something. I have a dog who is VERY vocal, no matter what she is doing and the second she starts playing and running she starts making insane growling noises. Even when playing with people but they are CLEARLY playful and she never makes an aggressive move at all. You need to learn to read your dogs, not every bark or growl means the same thing.
> 
> Really when dog training I do think to each his own, and whatever you feel comfortable with is ok (well not WHATEVER but you know) for you. I don't think anyone is at liberty to say there is one proven right or wrong method. The owner needs to figure out what works for them and their dog together.


Very well said Quinn  The shows are good because we learn a bit of good advice from all.....but its true as we all know our own pets and sometimes that is the best


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

I have tried his method,doesn't work on Lily,i think if somebody new takes hold of your dogs lead ,they always seem better behaved as they're not sure of the person.Is this why he does so well with his training ?


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## Kristin (Nov 12, 2004)

I loooove me some Ceasar!! His methods have worked WONDERS for Boss's dominance and aggression issues. I also mix in some of Victoria Stillwells (sp?) stuff in there too. He is much better behaved than he used to be.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

I adore Victoria Stillwell from It's Me Or The Dog. I swear I think I've seen every episode. We tivo them and Haley and Mackenzie and I watch them all the time. She is so positive and gentle but firm when she needs to be. She believes in 100% positive reinforcement. I really know very little about Cesar so I have no opinion on him. 

That being said, whatever works for you and your dog, go for it. These little darlings are all different and what works for some won't work for another. I don't believe there's any fool proof way. Not with real kids either. It's about their temperaments and personalities and our way, as parents, of dealing with them.


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## jeanie brown (Jan 5, 2009)

huskyluv said:


> i've watched seasons 1, 2, and half of season 3 of cesar milan's show. As a personal opinion and preference i do not like most of his training methods and would never use them unless i had such a difficult dog that i might use his methods as a last resort, i doubt i ever would need to though. I use a positive reinforcement training method which has always worked for me on any dog i've come across so far. I am not a fan of cesar milan but i do watch the show just to see what other training styles are out there, however i am a huge fan of victoria stillwell's (from it's me or the dog) training methods.


im with you on this 100%


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## jeanie brown (Jan 5, 2009)

I much prefer victoria dodge is very growly when playing with hes toys but if you just say give me a kiss he will stop and lick lick lick its so sweet


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

I too think Victoria is more in tune with dogs and I like her approach.
I think she lives in the United States now?

Barbara x


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## Jetta (Mar 26, 2009)

At the end of the day i don't see how his results can be denied?

It does at times seem like he's quite brief in and out but in many of his more serious cases he actualy takes the dog away to his dog psychology centre for as long as a few months because the agression is so serious the rehabilitation needs that time and patience.

As for being hands on in some cases well so are dogs mothers and dominance is the way a pack is led so I'm not sure how doing things in a more human way can be better for a dog than doing it the natural dog way.

he does very often use positive reinforcement but tells the owers the right time to praise and reward.

For the purpose of TV they fit three cases into each show usualy but you can see that he goes back a few times in most cases.

We recently watched his 100th episode and there were masses of people there to celebrate the occasion all with their dogs in tow.

He also really makes me laugh at times he was with one very hyper ditsy blond and her pom and he was trying to tell her that the dog was excited enough about going for a walk without her "shall we go for walkies walkies walkies yay yay walkies!" and he jumped up and down clapping his hands mimicking her in a really high pitched voice, we were weak with laughter and kept rewinding it lol.

I think he's brilliant. As for the shows "don't use these techniques without seeking proffessional advice" warnings, well with todays 'it's my fault but I'm blaming you and sueing' culture it's really not suprising. Everyone has to cover their own back these days it's insane and it's come from the US to the UK now somewhat too. A packet of KP nuts even have to say 'may contain nuts' on the back lol I'd bloody well hope they would contain nuts, that was sort of the point lol.


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## roughhouse (Mar 1, 2009)

I love Cesar Millan. I love that he is quick to make sure that people don't blame a dog's breed for their behavior. He is a great advocate for the breeds being targeted by breed specific legislation. I have used his techniques to train and manage my dogs and I successfully had a house full of pit bulls and pit mixes with all of the fosters we had. They could be together without fighting and anyone who knows pit bulls knows that dog aggression is many times hard wired into the breed. I love that he shows people where they went wrong and focuses on training the owner and not so much the dog. The point of his show isn't to train dogs but to teach people how to handle the problems that many times they created in their dogs.


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## ahra1284 (Sep 3, 2008)

i'm a big fan of cesar - i've read most of his books and he's not a typical behaviorist - like he says, he rehabilitates dogs, he is not a professional dog trainer. what he does best is take an aggressive dog and correct and redirect his bad behavior and energy and makes him a calm submissive dog. i think a lot of people misunderstand his methods, his establishing dominance is in no way physically or emotionally stressful or damaging to the dog - sometiesm it relieves them of the stress that they feel in needing to be on top all the time. i think to really understand the meaning behind his methods you need to read the book, and his explanations are excellent. you cant deny the number of "red zone" dogs he's rescued and made into perfect family pets that were destined to be euthanized.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Rosiesmum said:


> I too think Victoria is more in tune with dogs and I like her approach.
> I think she lives in the United States now?


Yes, she does. She lives in Atlanta, GA (USA) with her husband, daughter and their new dog an adopted Labrador.


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## my4dogs (Apr 11, 2009)

ahra1284 said:


> i'm a big fan of cesar - i've read most of his books and he's not a typical behaviorist - like he says, he rehabilitates dogs, he is not a professional dog trainer. what he does best is take an aggressive dog and correct and redirect his bad behavior and energy and makes him a calm submissive dog. i think a lot of people misunderstand his methods, his establishing dominance is in no way physically or emotionally stressful or damaging to the dog - sometiesm it relieves them of the stress that they feel in needing to be on top all the time. i think to really understand the meaning behind his methods you need to read the book, and his explanations are excellent. you cant deny the number of "red zone" dogs he's rescued and made into perfect family pets that were destined to be euthanized.


Actually, his methods can be incredibly emotionally stressful to a dog! When he pins a dog down and it is struggling and "freaking out", that IS stress. The reason the dog finally calms down is that the dog is literally wore out from the fear and stress it is under by being pinned down. The dog is not relaxed because it is "better and the exercise was relaxing," it is literally just exhausted!

He is, however, a great advocate for breeds that are seen in a bad light. Being a pit bull owner myself, I commend anyone that helps portray these, and other "deemed vicious" breeds in a good light.

There are good points to his training, and bad. You will have people like and dislike things. 

I personally am a big fan of Victoria Stilwell myself. I think sometimes she is really harsh on the owners, but that is sometimes really needed. I believe that more good is done by behavior extinction and rewarding behaviors you wish to encourage. The techniques I employ are very similar to Stilwell's methods. I would love to meet her personally.

As far as growling during play, that is normal dog behavior! Even when dogs play together, they vocalize. I do not allow growling, however, to occur during play with people. I also am not an advocate of tug games, which some say can increase aggression. 

On a whole, Cesar does a lot of good by keeping dogs from being euthanized that otherwise would be. No matter who you are, what your training stance is, you have to give him credit for giving these dogs, and their owners, another chance at a happy life!


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## Jetta (Mar 26, 2009)

when I've seen him hold a dog to insist it calms and stops the agressive behaviour it can very often last just a few moments and they give in long long before they would have reached exhaustion.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Jetta said:


> when I've seen him hold a dog to insist it calms and stops the agressive behaviour it can very often last just a few moments and they give in long long before they would have reached exhaustion.


I've seen him push dogs down to what appears to be exhaustion...he'd not do it to any dog of mine 
Pinning dogs down is "old hat" when it comes to kind and intelligent reward based methods.
Just my thoughts and understanding 

I stopped watching his series ages ago. Some of it was really upsetting to view.

Barbara x


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## my4dogs (Apr 11, 2009)

There are dogs that he has done this with for longer than just a few minutes. 

Some training "experts" state that holding a dog down like that is actually quite terrifying to the dog, and that the dog is in a position and a state in which it perceives that it may be killed. If this IS true, (as there is no way to know what dogs are really thinking) then yes, this is emotionally stressful even if it is only a few moments.

The theory is that the dog lays down and just "gives up" to make the process of being pinned stop. People are making the argument that the dog just lies there waiting to be killed or released. The dog is not relaxing, but in a state of helplessness.

Originally alpha rolling was brought in to the dog training world by people who claimed it was done naturally by wolves in the wild. Ongoing research, however, has shown that a wild wolf will naturally submit to another, and that if another wolf pins him down, it is meant to physically harm or kill...not to encourage calm submissiveness.

I'm not an advocate for alpha rolling a dog. I feel that it can do more damage than good, including putting the roller at risk for a nasty bite! (Part of the reson you see the warning on his show..he is covering himself so he does not get sued by someone imitating his techniques.)

I have seen owners create fear in their dogs by alpha rolling them. I have seen owners get a false sense of complete control over their dog by alpha rolling him. Then an air of "cockiness" pops up, and the owner feels that they are never at risk of being bitten, and that the dog will never be able to inflict damage. And then the bite comes...


It's my opinion that there are kinder, more gentle ways of getting a dog into a "calm submissive," if you will, state. 

This is a great thread, and I'm enjoying everyone's responses! It's interesting to see where people stand on this!

:coolwink:


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

A friend of my husbands was bitten on the face by their Dobermann after holding down their dog as directed by a lousy trainer. To their credit they kept the dog and ditched the trainer.

The dog is doing well now and bit it is believed out of fear 
In another home it could have been destroyed.

Barbara x


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## Jetta (Mar 26, 2009)

I was bitten in the face by a dog when I was a kid, it got me in the jaw because it had always been afraid of me (thinking back it was just a matter of time before it happened i guess). he was my next door neighbours dog a very large curly haired dog but I can't remember which breed.

Because of my eye sight I always have to wear dark glasses (I'm severly sensitive to light and am blinded by it on sunny days without an exceptionaly dark lense) he hated (likely feared) anyone with dark glasses and also carrier bags.

I was only 11 and I reached to pick up a peacock feather he was sniffing on the floor and that's when he bit. My friends Dad came running in and i remember him punching the dog in the ribs to get him away from me.

He was put down but looking back i do wonder if it could all have been prevented by some proper rehabilitation by a professional like Ceaser does at his psychology center.

I had to give up playing clarinete i remember because my lip swole up terribly, he also pierced my chak and under my jaw but luckily I was left with only the very tinyest of scars like a tiny dent which can only be seen on my cheek if I point it out and you look really close.

I think anyone who can turn a dogs life around like that to avoid incidents like this or worse can only be praised for people and the dogs it'selfs sake.


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## guest185 (Oct 27, 2008)

Well until I see someone do a better job of dog rehabilitation, i'm totally for Cesar.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2009)

I think Cesar has a lot of good advice, but I don't always agree with his methods. He seems to do better with big dogs. You have to find out what works with your dog, so pick and choose with Cesar or any other "expert." The woman on "It's Me Or The Dog" seems to do better with small dogs. Can't think of her name right now, Victoria something. We also need to realize that what you see on TV makes it look a lot easier than it really is. There has to be a lot that goes on off-screen before they take the shot of the dog immediately doing exactly what they want it to. It just doesn't work that way. Training takes time and repetition that you don't see on the shows. If it really were that easy and all it took was certain words and signals and tones of voice, we'd all have perfectly trained dogs.


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## Jetta (Mar 26, 2009)

I would say that if people want to use his methods to save getting it wrong (like pinning down a bigger dog) then buy one of his many books, definatly better than trying to copy te tv show which can't cover everything you need to know in three cases covered in one show. He's got a book called puppyood coming out in October wich I'd love to have but Loki won't really be so much a puppy by the time it comes out. Another of his books does cover everything from before you get your dog onward so that's the first one I want to read.


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## katsrevenge (Nov 24, 2008)

All in all, I like him and I do use many of his methods. But, I also like some of the other TV trainers... and a few books I've read here and there.

But... I realize that any method takes time. I realize that one method will not work for every dog. IE, treats and very mild negative reinforcement ("You BAD dog!" in a low tone) work wonders on Kali. She's a soft dog. Buck, my old Malamute, would have done a doggy snigger at such treatment... he required a much firmer hand or he'd run all over you. Literally. With him, any sort of positive only training would have either failed or gotten some critter dead. He was a hard dog.

I feel that whatever the method, his 'calm and assertive' energy works wonders. Like nothing else about him if you will, but give that a try.


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## *Tricia* (Dec 1, 2007)

I certainly haven't seen every episode of his show, but the dogs I've seen him "pin down" were dogs that were trying to bite. So I think the whole idea of that action is to make it unpleasant and to make the dog feel vulnerable so they associate that type of biting aggression with a bad consequence. I'm all for positive reinforcement to teach a dog to continue good behavior, but out of control dogs that are a danger to other animals and people DO need a firm hand IMO to avoid ending up being put down after they do some real damage. El Diablo, the chihuahua on his chi special, was the only dog I've really seen him pin down for any length of time, and the dog ended up super happy kissing his face and eating beside the other dogs just a few weeks later, so obviously his methods do work. I'm not advocating a strong hand with every dog in every instance, but I'm not exactly sure how positive reinforcement would even apply to a severely aggressive dog like Diablo, as he wasn't doing anything at all that should have been rewarded.


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## Jetta (Mar 26, 2009)

excerpt from a synopsis of one show I have recorded to watch on sky+ "Cesar attempts to solve a pitbull's unhalthy facination with chewing on rocks."

lol daft mutt at what point did he actualy munch a chunk of rock and think "yeah this is really yum!"

sorry just had to share as that tickled me pink. We'll watch the episode later and see what happened.


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