# Merle Chi



## furriefriend (Jul 25, 2008)

As I am new to the world of chi's could someone tell me what is the controversey behind the merle ? It seems people have very divided views and I am fasinated to learn about them. I am not planning another dog chi or otherwise just want to get educated ! ( at least not yet hehe cant afford the divorce from longsuffering oh)


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## doggydee (Aug 25, 2008)

Well, some people disagree with the breeding of merle chi pups, because they think that it shows that two different breeds had a litter, causing this colour to come out. They also think that it causes genetic defects, size problems, etc etc. 
But then _others_ don't see anything wrong with it, because they believe that the merle colour could just be part of the chi breed's evolution. You know, as somewhere along the line, it just came out. This colour has been in chihuahua's for about 20 years or more, as I read somewhere. (Correct me if I'm wrong on that, because I'm not too sure )


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## Honey&Winston (Aug 21, 2008)

furriefriend said:


> As I am new to the world of chi's could someone tell me what is the controversey behind the merle ? It seems people have very divided views and I am fasinated to learn about them. I am not planning another dog chi or otherwise just want to get educated ! ( at least not yet hehe cant afford the divorce from longsuffering oh)


have you seen the merle pups on the epupz site. they are so cute id love to know where the colour came from though some people have said that the colour has come from cross breading but not sure. they are being given a very high price tag though...


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## Jangles021204 (Sep 20, 2006)

Here are a couple of threads where merles have been discussed before :

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/showthread.php?t=28979&highlight=merle+chihuahua

http://www.chihuahua-people.com/showthread.php?t=31632&highlight=merle+chihuahua


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## carachi (Mar 20, 2005)

I really don't agree with the breeding of merle Chihuahuas at all. It makes me twitch when people have litters of merle Chihuahuas.

Here is some information on them: http://www.pedigreedogs.co.uk/k9bytes/merle.htm


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## furriefriend (Jul 25, 2008)

Thanks i was just curious will read the links


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## jesshan (Sep 15, 2005)

Merles have been banned in the UK by the KC - they cannot be registered and therefore no different to an unregistered dog. The ban is the reason that you don't see many of them - they are not "rare" - the ridiculous price tags on them should be enough to put people off.

I wonder how many of these breeders in the UK have had tests done on them. Although there are no compulsory test over here, they really should be done as a basic precaution. At least the merle breeders in overseas do all the testing and differenciate the merle lines and non merle lines.

Malcolm Willis states that it is a genetic impossiblility for the pattern to mutate naturally within chi's and that the only way it could happen is by crossing with a dachie or sheltie (or something similar).


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Never seen a merle Chhuahua yet, but no doubt I will as I *have* seen them advertised for sale in our area.
Regardless of the health issues, personally I don't like the colouring, it makes them look very odd, which genetically it seems they are 
But this just personal taste I guess.

I know they are just as lovable and of course as worthy of a loving home as any Chihuahua.
What people will do to make money from dogs 
Barbara x


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

I am sorry for all the things that go wrong with them but i really like some of the colours ive seen of merles.


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## melonypersians (Jan 3, 2008)

all i can say is please do your research before you make a judgement on them. know all there is to know and hear all of the opinions even as mean as some are. just try to make a well informed and accurate descision.


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## Constance (Feb 3, 2008)

I would like to know what is the difference between the Blue colour which has been in Chihuahuas for hundreds of years and used to be rare and the Merle colours?


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## carachi (Mar 20, 2005)

My opinion, steer clear of blues all together. Blue and blue merles. My boy is a blue and fawn and his coat is disgusting. It's wiry in some places, soft and brittle in others on his back. All the breeders I talk to really hate the fact that we paid so much for a blue Chihuahua. They're beautiful, but their coat is terrible. (This is for long haired, not sure about short haired.)

Merle isn't really a colour, it's a pattern of dilution in colouring (often black.)

I am living on about 2 hours sleep so correct me if I'm wrong and I will return to this when I am thinking clearer LOL


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## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

Wow so much to say. I like the merle pattern BUT in our breed there are many colors that hide the fact that the chi could be genetically merle. In fact all colors like red, cream, fawn, sable, brindle..... can hide it except black/tan, chocolate/tan and blue/tan. In other words, they can be a merle but look non merle. They are called hidden merles or phantom merles.
If someone was to breed two merles together whether they show the merles pattern or are hidden merles, the pups from that litter can be deaf, blind or have tiny to no eyes.
If someone thought that they had two creams but they were really hiddens........
There has been some talk that spotted and merle breeding may have the same problums as merle to merle breedings.


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## tazruby (Jan 2, 2006)

Linipi Chihuahuas said:


> My opinion, steer clear of blues all together. Blue and blue merles. My boy is a blue and fawn and his coat is disgusting. It's wiry in some places, soft and brittle in others on his back. All the breeders I talk to really hate the fact that we paid so much for a blue Chihuahua. They're beautiful, but their coat is terrible. (This is for long haired, not sure about short haired.)
> 
> Merle isn't really a colour, it's a pattern of dilution in colouring (often black.)
> 
> I am living on about 2 hours sleep so correct me if I'm wrong and I will return to this when I am thinking clearer LOL


i have a smooth coat blue chi and his coat is very shiny and very soft. i get tons of compliments on his fur from friends who visit, and the groomer, and even his vet. He did have trouble with very dry skin when we first brought him home but his vet suggessted we switch him to a grain free food. Now he has gourgous skin and fur


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I am not sure about the size and coats of the blues compared to the merles, other than the two that I have seen in person and both of them were Blue with Fawn points and Tiny probably about 2 1/2 lbs full grown and super silky soft coats


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## Ory&C (Mar 20, 2005)

Hi there, just wanted to say hi . I don't see many people from Croydon on this forum ..... I work/live in Croydon as well .


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

There is a lot of talk about Merles - whether or not they are indeed pure Chi lines etc - but from everything I have read this seems to be more of a political campaign from certain breeders against others (and obviously those against the merles have more power in the clubs - as more clubs are banning merles).

This ban goes against the original breed standard for Chis that allowed all colors and coat patterns. The Chihuahua Club of America have a wonderful guide on how to ethically breed merles.

http://www.chihuahuaclubofamerica.com/merle_guidelines.htm

The funny thing is that recently that Texas A&M University (reference: PNAS, 2006,103(5):1376-81) discovered a mutation in the dog SILV gene and found it to be responsible for the merle coat color patterning in dogs.

This mutation of the gene can occur to any dog at any time. Just as human genes can mutate - those of dogs can too. So the hoopla about banning merles because only "other" breeds can have merles is non-sense. 

All dogs carry the SILV gene and it is only a matter of time for mutations to occur - resulting in merles.

Granted, there are numerous reasons to be cautious if breeding merles. Extensive testing needs to be done on each parent - certain breeding practices need to be in place and all offspring of a merle parent should be noted as carrying the merle gene as many coat colors do hide the merle pattern.

What I find disturbing is that many breeders bad mouth merles, blues, chocolates and lilacs (the dilutes and mutants hehe) - but they really don't have a full understanding of them. 

There is nothing abnormal about dilutes being present in genetics - even humans have variations in hair color, skin color etc - some with no pigment at all.

I would rather have a breeder say "Honestly, I know nothing about blues, merles ... [insert topic here]" than to immediately attack it. 

We don't breed merles but we have blues. Our blues have coats that are like velvet - they are so soft. We have never had a puppy that had colour dilution alopecia - which is the cause of the patchy/awful coats - nor have we have a dog with a thyroid problem (can also be linked to dilutes) - then again we check for thyroid issues in our pre-breeding screening. 

Inheritance of colour dilution alopecia is still not fully understood but any dog that suffers from it - should not be bred (nor should their siblings or parents). 

It all goes back to education. The more you learn about genetics etc - the more comfortable you will become with it. It is easy to dismiss something apparently "new" but sometimes it is worth the effort to learn more about the subject before attacking it - which I have found in numerous places - which is sad.


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## Maleighchi (Jan 6, 2008)

I just wanted to say while I know nothing about Merles or Blues (Ok..I do love the blues, lol), I loved your post. I like being able to read something that contains information/facts and it doesn't seem biased one way or another. Just my .02 worth.



OrchardLane said:


> There is a lot of talk about Merles - whether or not they are indeed pure Chi lines etc - but from everything I have read this seems to be more of a political campaign from certain breeders against others (and obviously those against the merles have more power in the clubs - as more clubs are banning merles).
> 
> This ban goes against the original breed standard for Chis that allowed all colors and coat patterns. The Chihuahua Club of America have a wonderful guide on how to ethically breed merles.
> 
> ...


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## tailwagging (Oct 21, 2005)

I too have blues. The darker the blue the less likeliness that it will develop colour dilution alopecia.
When breeding blues it is always best to breed to a bloodline with good dark pigment.
I wish AKC would attach a M to the registration # of pups that come from a family tree that have merle in it, like they do for the white dobie. Otherwise years from now when hidden merles saturate the breed, all chihuahua breeders will have to DNA for merle just to stay ethical. making the cost of breeding even more then it is now. = many breeders will stop breeding (since you can only go in the red so much before it brakes you) or having to charge more.


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## vviccles1 (Feb 13, 2007)

sullysmum said:


> I am sorry for all the things that go wrong with them but i really like some of the colours ive seen of merles.


I totally aagree Donna!:daisy:. I also have seen 2 striking brindles that blue me awat with good dipositions to boot.


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

tailwagging said:


> I wish AKC would attach a M to the registration # of pups that come from a family tree that have merle in it, like they do for the white dobie.


I think that is essential to note for all dogs - a breeder should write all known dilute/mutation genes that their dogs carry on the purchase agreement in the mean time (just my opinion) but making it a registration rule would be awesome too. 

Sadly, many merle breeders are not even testing their breeding stock for the normal Chi issues let alone the merle specific traits/concerns. 

Willowanne - Thanks for the comment, I love blues too and do like merles but have yet to find a breeder that I am confident in who breeds them (around here).


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## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

The problem with Merle's isn't the colour as much as the people breeding them. I personally am very on the fence regarding merle breeding I disagree with breeding any animals that have known health defects and most people dont test their stock, merle or otherwise. I do think it would be nice if the AKC did something to separate the lines with Merle in them, mainly so they don't get into other people's lines unknowingly. Maybe breeders should look into having a separate line for merles which can be crossed within the current chihuahua gene pool but only registered with their own.

I would stay away from merle breeders in the UK personally, I have seen a merle puppy over here but the prices they ask are too much and I very much doubt the money is going towards research and medical testing more likely the breeders back pocket.

As for would I own a merle dog, no I wouldn't I think the 'normal' colours have enough health problems of their own.


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

*Sarah* said:


> The problem with Merle's isn't the colour as much as the people breeding them.


I agree with you fully. If those that bred merles took the precautions necessary - I would probably have a merle right now and possibly introduce one into my breeding program if I could find the right line. However, that has proven extremely difficult to date. 

I also don't agree with breeders charging huge prices for merles unless they have all the genetic testing proof to back up those prices - then I wouldn't mind seeing or even paying a high price. You have to pay for quality


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

Just seen another advertised on 'the site', rediculous prices for any chihuahua let alone a merle!


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

I am new here ... what is 'the site'? haha 

I just thought I would mention too a little side note about merles.

There is a breeder here in my province. She has merles. She breeds frequently and without health testing but has all the "right answers" so to speak. 

Anyways she charges top dollar for the puppies and she has one of her puppies at her house (not normal for her as she breeds to sell only). So I asked her about this young dog as I noticed she was blind in one eye - she said "Oh she scratched it" - umm scratches don't normally look like a genetic fault - with a protruding eye, no scarring on the eye itself etc (I have dealt with many eye injuries through my rescue work - bites/scratches to battery acid poured into the eye and never have seen an "injury" like that). 

So this issue popped up in her breeding program with this young female but she continues to breed the mother?! 

Just a word of caution for people looking for merles.


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## Keeffer (Feb 26, 2008)

OrchardLane said:


> I am new here ... what is 'the site'? haha
> 
> I just thought I would mention too a little side note about merles.
> 
> ...


Of course they keep breeding the mother. And she'll ask ridiculous prices. Such people only breed for making money. And puppy buyers usually don't know these things, they trust such a 'breeder' and end up with a sick puppy.  The only thing you can do is stay far far away from these people.


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## OrchardLane (Aug 30, 2008)

Oh I know!! I agree 1000000% .... I stay clear of her but many don't - she ships her puppies all over the place and it is scary how many people just buy puppies without a clue.

Her website is full of cutsie pictures of the pups in a "buy me now" type of layout and it disgusts me. No where does it mention the genetic eye problem that showed up with her pup, the potential issues with merles, that one of her breeding females dropped dead one morning and no autopsy was done to find out why ... you know the important things like that.

It is the typical "internet" puppy buying scheme as it is all about the impulse buy and that is it. Very sad.


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## Ian Fox-Williams (Sep 6, 2008)

*It's the ethics of the breeder that matter!*

Hi everyone!

I am soon to become the proud daddy of a merle chi, before making this decision I had researched the whole debate on this colour strain or mutation for a quite a while and I must admit the horror stories that I read and pictures that I had seen about health defects and 'overly large' proportions put me off.

However I decided to make enquiries with several KC registered breeders about their thoughts on the matter, some were quick to tell me of their disgust whilst others took the time to explain the issues with merles (like many chi's) and that responsible breeding, mapping of bloodlines and genuine care for the dogs themselves meant that a merle chi could and often are as healthy as other standard coloured chi's. 

I decided to meet with a breeder who was more than happy for me to meet with not just only the merle puppies and their parents but also other chi's that she owned (including a delightful and healthy little merle). She also 'interviewed me' about why I wanted a Chi, and my interest in merles in particular. She explained to me that the health dangers occur most likely where two merles have been bred together - something which she does not advocate and a matter that she discussed with me and all potential buyers of her merle puppies. Obviously once anyone has bought the puppy they may not stick to their word but the breeder has acted more than responsibly regarding these puppies. She also took the time to explain the bloodline of the puppies father (chocolate/blue) and that it was excellent (showed me the pedigree). I spent more than a few hours that day playing with her dogs, getting to know her and her getting to know me, and based on this and the quality of the babies I placed a deposit down on my new baby who I am calling Othello or 'Otty' for short.

I would not be as bold as to profess that I am any Chihuahua expert, I used to have a delightful pug who I showed as a junior handler and whom I recently lost after 15 years.

One thing I am prepared to say is that I agree with those on this thread who have said that the safety of the merle is in the hands of the responsible breeder and there are breeders out there who are charging rediculous prices for chi's - particularly t-cup chi's.

When I first started my dog search for a Chi, like my previous dog I was adamant that I wanted a KC reg dog with excellent championship bloodlines and I was prepared to pay whatever...that no longer became the point...I changed my focus to a puppy that I personally found beautiful and was healthy and happy...I have found that in a merle chi...and I cannot wait to get him...and am happy to pay what I am paying for the quality of dog. My breeder is sending me photo's weekly of him and his siblings playing and enjoying puppyhood, they have been vet checked and are coming with huge puppy packs and a six generation pedigree.

And on the KC reg issue? After watching a recent BBC program about the over breeding of dogs (Pug being the most overbred) I was disgusted with many breed standards set by the KC in what they consider breed standard...I am happy that he will not be reg with the KC....and even more happy that I am giving a home to a wonderful little dog and have made a friendship with the lady who bred him and so clearly cares about the chihuahua as a breed.


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## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

Ian Fox-Williams said:


> She also took the time to explain the bloodline of the puppies father (chocolate/blue)


Hmmm I always thought it was advisable not to breed a merle dog with a dilute colour either as there are problems with the dilutes coats as well. I always thought a merle should usually be bred with a black and tan or another dark colour. Also you mentioned she advises buyers on breeding the puppies, but shouldn't all be sold on spay/neuter contracts as some can be hidden merles and I doubt everyone buying the pups would take the time to look into the breeding of their dogs.

Of course I could be wrong, I personally don't agree with merle breeding practices over here though, from what I've seen it's all about money, but I will give any breeder the benefit of the doubt if they can prove the money is spent otherwise.


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## Ian Fox-Williams (Sep 6, 2008)

She actually two solid coloured puppies in the litter, both female and neither colours were for sale, she informed me how a woman was prepared to send a deposit in the post for one of these bitches without even seeing them and she refused it. She is keeping both dogs herself due to what she called a 'hidden' Mm gene or something like that.

When I say blue / chocolate since I am no expert on the colours the daddy has those coloured bits above each eye so what I might call blue/choc someone who knows that they are taking about might say tan and black with the blue gene...

sorry!

::lol:


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Not sure if the Merle gene causes the same problems in all breeds, I should think it does?
A couple of years ago my friend went to look at a litter of Merle Dacshunds (sp?) The mother had a "damaged" eye and another bitch there had only one eye 

Now I know this breed is prone to eye problems anyway, but it makes you question this type of breeding 

To my mind there are enough beautiful coat colours to satisfy everyone, without taking a chance with this gene. But, there will always be people who want to stand out and have something different...and breeders who will capitalise on that. Just my personal and general thoughts.
At the end of the day, we must all do what we think is right. I'm no expert, but I've read enough to never buy this colour, but as I've said, personally I don't find it attractive anyway.


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## carachi (Mar 20, 2005)

Pepi has 8+ dogs in his pedigree who are chocolate/blue and, well, look how he turned out :-\ I doubt all of his problems come from the fact that he came from blue/chocolate dogs but I know it was a factor in the fact that he has an awful coat.


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## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

Linipi Chihuahuas said:


> Pepi has 8+ dogs in his pedigree who are chocolate/blue and, well, look how he turned out :-\ I doubt all of his problems come from the fact that he came from blue/chocolate dogs but I know it was a factor in the fact that he has an awful coat.


I was more implying crossing the dilutes (both blue and chocolate are black dilutes) with the merle gene could cause more problems? I could be wrong but I always heard it was wrong to cross the lighter colours with merles, due to the hidden merle possibility, and it always makes me wonder why someone would cross a blue with a merle unless they have no understanding that the blue merling comes from merling on a black/tan dog.

As for dilute coats I'm not knocking them  Mai is pretty much chocolate sable anyway and Stitch is red with blue sabling.


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