# Dog Food Article Horrible!!



## punky (May 31, 2004)

While searching the web for a new pet food supplier (see I came across this horrible article. It's tells about the dog food industry. It's well worth reading!
http://futurepet.com/cgi-bin/search.exe?BP=1


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

punky said:


> While searching the web for a new pet food supplier (see I came across this horrible article. It's tells about the dog food industry. It's well worth reading!
> http://futurepet.com/cgi-bin/search.exe?BP=1


 Sorry, type in dog food in the search bar and it will pop up.


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## luv4mygirls (Feb 20, 2005)

here's the article....... i have mixed feelings about this article... :? 





In October 1997 Austin, Texas Channel 42 News ran a series of expose´s about the pet food industry. It was quite shocking-- not for primetime-due-to-violent-content--type of newscasting, and the images had the whole town talking: Dead dogs and cats in big barrels were being dumped into vats of foaming food at a feed producing plant.

Radio DJ's were screaming, and talk radio was filled with panicked, irrate, amazed, and incredulous pet owners.

What was it all about? What did they mean "Foods Pets Die For?"

It came as a surprise to most dog and cat owners that those types of products are allowed to be used for animal feeds, but it was confirmed in interviews with officials at AAFCO, the government agency that regulates and controlspet foods.

I visited a rendering plant once. Once is enough for anyone. At the plant, where ingredients are mixed and cooked to produce animal feeds, I saw huge trucks pull up loaded with things as objectionable as maggot-infested carcasses and euthanized cats and dogs as well as city trucks of road kill and dead animals cleaned off of urban streets.

Like the viewers in Austin, I was incredulous. I hadn't stopped to consider what happens to those things. I guess I thought they went to the land fill or to some dead animal place in the sky.

No, folks. They go into dog and cat, cattle and hog food. Now, with 20 years of experience, I know that in the industry the 4 D's: dead, dying, diseased and decayed animals as well as dead dogs and cats are routinely used in many grocery and discount pet foods. But back those many years ago, I was as shocked and outraged as Austin pet owners were last week.

If the network wanted to enhance viewership, they did. The 5-part series had not even aired on Sunday, and I was already fielding questions from anxious clients who had only seen the name and teaser for the program.

I stayed up each night to see the news--something I'd like to do every night, but, sadly I am too weary from my day to stay awake after ten. The show was, indeed, exactly as we had anticipated: a wake-up call to pet owners.

Future Pets had tried to make a cost-conscious public aware of the ugly truth about cheap pet foods for over ten years. But since we don't sell any foods like that, our advicewas too often viewed as a marketing tool.Now, at last, the network news had finally done the job, albeit in a highly graphic and grotesque way. But if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes.

Austinites were dismayed that the newsroom never told us just which foods to avoid. That would have been, perhaps, too dangerous in the face of the huge, well-funded, and legally aggressive conglomerates like Quaker Foods and Purina Mills who make and market many grocery dog and cat foodvarieties such as "Cycle" and "Dog Chow".

They did, however give some guidelines to use when choosing a good product. I reiterate those guidelines here for theworld to see and have added a couple of my own.

1. Understand that the ingredients are listed in order that tells you the quantity of each of the ingredients in the bag (by weight before processing). There's more of the first than the second ingredient and more of the second than the third and so on. If you want your pet to have a chicken or lamb based diet, look for it first on the label.

2. Don't buy Meat and Bone Meal diets. How about animal fat? It is precisely the lack of definition of exactly what kind of meat that gets you into trouble.

3. Don't be afraid of by-products They are the non-meat portion of the animal such as the brain, the liver, or the innards, but they are very valuable as a source of nutrition. Chicken and lamb by-product are important pet food ingredients.


4. Don't be afraid of meal. Meal simply means that the meat has been dehydrated. The water is gone but the valuable nutrition stays. In fact, a diet whose first ingredient is chicken meal may very well have more actual chicken than a diet whose first ingredient is chicken or fresh chicken which is heavy with water when it is weighed for the label. It's weight makes it appear as a first ingredient, but it's value is negligible. Meal has more meat-less water. 

5. Stay away from preservatives like ETHOXYQUIN. Maybe even BHA and BHT. Look instead for Vitamin E or Mixed Tocophorols (another name for vitamin E). Your pet eats a diet that is completely pre-made, so his every bite may be loaded with chemicals unless you protect him from them. I saw a study that showed that a medium sized dog might be ingesting as much as 10 pounds of preservatives in a year! Think of a bag of chemicals the size of a bowling ball and imagine feeding them to your dog. Not a pretty thought.

6. To make this easy, they came right out and said that the grocery store is NOT the place to shop for a quality diet. It's true. They know not what they sell. Future Pets does NOT carry any diets that contain dead dogs and cats or diseased animals. Be suspicious of the grocery where no-one can help you make an informed decision, and be suspicious of the big chains of WalMart-type pet superstores (you know their names) that carry the ugly foods along with the good. Don't give them your money, even if you're buying a good food.

If they really cared, they'd empty their shelves of the bags and the companies that make the bags of "Foods Pets Die For!".

Footnote April 1998--consumer Reports concluded that "designer" foods are no more "valuable" than Ol' Roy or any other off-brand pet foods, but when pressed, they have agreed to re-do the tests. We highly respect the opinion of Consumer Reports Magazine and think they are a fine source of quality investigative reporting. We are pleased that they have agreed that their studies may be flawed and will be re-evaluating their conclusions.

UPDATE Nov 2003: It is interesting to note that nothingin the dog food manufacturing industry seems to have changed in the lastcouple of years.


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

Do you think it's inaccurate?


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## luv4mygirls (Feb 20, 2005)

i think some of it is. i've read and did my research and believe that yes some lower quality foods put crap in there products..... i don't know something jsut doesn't sit right with me about that article. i'd like to find my articles that i've read about the foods but i can't even begin to think about where i seen them.....


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

I scanned the article...and I agree with some of what they say. 

Now, I prefer to do my own research on pet foods rather than have vets tell me what my dog or cats should eat. (vets push science diet...nuff said) articles like this are helpful though in going through the process of choosing a quality pet food.


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## Mr Chi (May 25, 2005)

No, unfortunately its totally accurate. I bought a massive sack of Omega. However, that soon went into the bin when I found out that they buy whatever is cheapest that week and use that as the main ingredient. One week chicken, the next soya, the next - who knows? I've switched to Royal Canin as they are consistent with their recipe.
Interestingly, apparently chicken is very cheap (through battery farming, mutation of chickens like K.F.C do - growing them with more wings etc) so (and I didnt know this until recently) when you buy budget tinned or dry food its almost certain to be chicken but flavoured to suit the "tuna" or whatevr label.
Heres the worst part, stop reading if you get upset easily......









Luckily, my uncle is a member of the european parliament and through him I did abit of digging just recently to prove a point to a friend. I have wadges of E.U reports on what can and does go into animal feeds. Honestly, it made me sick just reading it, but I visited a rendering plant as a guest of a friend who worked in one in the midlands and he delighted in showing us how bad it was so we could understand something (which I'll come to in a minute) Oh boy, I left there sweating and dizzy with nausia. What was said in that article doesnt fully convey the horror of what is being done to save money. There are government guidelines on what can go into animal feed, and its pretty much everything except some parts that can spread disease etc. The blood is processed, the fat is drained from evrything and there is this awful grinding and mashing sound all the time of the carcasses being litterally pulped. I asked him jokingly what they did with things like feathers and bones and things. Stupid question. Like I said - nothings wasted, that would be wasting money. They process evey part of the animal in some way and use it in food. VERY little is wasted. Just think about that.
Which brings me onto the really serious part - the problem with "recycling animals" is you are eating "dirty food." That Big Mac tastes good with the dressing, but you paid so little for it. How do they do it so cheap? well, they have to save money somewhere, lets get the cheapest meat. So the meat processing plants that deal with food for human consumption need to bring down their prices so they go to the cheapest farmer. My grandad was a farmer and is still living at 91 years old. He's always said how animals raised on good grass and were well maintained and bred gave the best meat. Thats sooooooo true. Because while Mr Jannor is feeding his prize herd the very best feed produced on his farm in fields that have been balanced in soil ph and all, Cheap Skate the quick buck guy is buying the cheapest feed he can get to maximise his profits. He doesnt care, why should he? Hospital waste would be better for them, in fact im suprised that it hasnt already been utilized. I dont mean that jokingly, as everything becomes more and more about making money the quality WILL suffer. So the animal eats the feed, made form a concoction of animals, gathered from all places. BTW did you know that it IS legal for maggot infested carcasses and even faeces to enter the animal food chain?! And what do you get, an animal that is malnurished and inferior, ridden with problems induced by the food and lack of proteins and nutrients. So? its cheap and thats all that matters to them. So off the animal goes, is slaughtered and later is served up to you and I in a bap. Or in the supermarket as a sausage or something. That animal is legally fit for human consumption but is it?? CJD/Mad c.o.w (darn swear filter)disease was spread to humans through beef. And it was spread through cattle - through their feed. There were STRICT rules saying what could go into animal feed, but they were ignored by some plants. All it had to take was on infected animal, into feed, then that passes into 20 animals, which we then eat. See what I mean? This is the way its been going for years, its exactly like good dog breeders and puppy mills. a good breeder with good stock concentrates on producing the best QUALITY dog, breeding out defects, screening parents for diseases, and though it isnt cheap and it isnt very profitable the end result is a fantastic specimen that will carry on the breed traits. However, the mill is only interested in profit. Maximising turnaround, it costs too much to spend time with them to socialise them, who cares? they'll be rid of them in 10 weeks, well the ones that live anyway, they just want to make room for the next 30 pups or whatever. What do you get, dogs with problems, picking up disease from their filthy kennel and pasing that onto their young. Those pups leave, if one breeds it simply dilutes the breed standard and pases on more genetic hardships.
Noticed cancer rates increasing? Alll the toxins we are eating as a result of this recycling of animals and the intensive farming using pesticides and herbicides (make crop grow faster=more money / more silage=more animal feed=more profit / animal eats gras, ingests toxins, animal slaughtered, we eat animal, we get toxins.) is a strong factor in this as independent studies have proved. Its not widely known, just as its not widely known that oil companies developed hydrogen energy years ago but will wait until global reserves are low before releasing it (hydrogen energy echange is extremely efficient which means its cheaper, but they can make more money waiting selling oil at ever increasing prices) Why dont you believe me? Because I was the same, I just refused to accept that what I had been eating for 20 years was so little like propper food. We all laugh at the sausage packet that says "80 percent meat" well there you go. I saw a packet of ten sausages for 25pence/50 cents thats cheap. Mmmmm, and having read my post now you know why.

It wont change, believe me, as long as the love of money stands higher than anything else things can only get worse. Living in Devon I am able to avoid commercial food as much as I can without it being to inconvenient. All my meat is bought from a local farmer who's a friend of the family, same with the veggies etc. I choke when I goto McDonalds with my friends, I goto the sandwhich shop down the road and get a chicken breast subway thing and rejoin them. At leats I can see whats in it. I cant take take the risk anymore, its sometimes a pain but its my health and although a Whopper with cheese is the tastiest thing evvvvvvvvvvver........(it was my fav  ) Its not good in the long run.



I thought I was rambling for a moment, but like it or not its all one big food pyramid and guess whos at the top getting all the bad bits from lower down? Us. So in answer to your question, yes it is not exagerated, if anything I would say its tame and merely scrapes the surface of a global problem.

Sorry this post is so big, I cant really contribute to most of the things on here as I am such a newbie to chis, but this is something thats close to my heart so I hope its made a few people think about the big picture as anything happening at the bottom of the food pyramid will affect us at the top.

I'm not a paranoid old man. Although I sound it!!!


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

I called someone who has done extensive research for her pets food, dog and cats. She agrees and said the article was actually very mild in comparison with others on the internet. She said just Google ingredients pet food and you'll see plenty of substantiated proof. She asked around why Vets sell a lot of the negative pet foods and was told because it would be too time consuming to change all the foods and suppliers let alone the patients that they have told their products were better than the chain stores.
She found food finally at www.healthypets.com 
She also told me to just read the ingredients, should be all things we know. Not a bunch of preservatives. One other note her cat has been changed over to a special food the Vet prescribed and he has developed hairballs and is shedding like crazy. The other cat still on the natural food is fine.

This is all very messy! To say the least. But I'm changing Punky's food.


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## Mr Chi (May 25, 2005)

SEE! Damned money again! Since when has a vet not had time or inclination to put their patients interests over financial gain. Sick.

What did you decide on switching to in the end??


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

Mr Chi said:


> SEE! Damned money again! Since when has a vet not had time or inclination to put their patients interests over financial gain. Sick.
> 
> What did you decide on switching to in the end??


I totally agree about the financial gain. it's kind of scary to know that some vets are concerned with money more than your pets health. i won't bring my pets to vets that sell science diet. i have heard bad things about that food and i know a lot of vets recommend it (as stated in my post above) the vet i bring my pets to doesn't sell science diet. 

to time consuming to switch suppliers and let patients know? HA! How hard is it to make a few phone calls and have the shipments of food stopped, make a few more phone calls and get new suppliers...then make up a flyer to give all new and old patients when they come in telling them why that food is no longer recommended and the new food they are selling is better? i think this would only take a few hours. :wave:


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

Mr Chi said:


> SEE! Damned money again! Since when has a vet not had time or inclination to put their patients interests over financial gain. Sick.
> 
> What did you decide on switching to in the end??


First of all I have to correct the website it's www.healtypetnet.com

I have been on the web for hours researching and.... I called my daughter,she uses Life's Abundance because it's all natural and even speaks about how food can make your pet live to it's expected life expectancy(which they usually don't). It happens to be the healthypetnet website and then I read other brand ingredients. I'm not sure about all the ingredients in the Royal Canin. But I can recognize everything in Wellness and Solid Gold so I'm going with one of those three. It's 3:00AM and I've got to get to bed so I'll finish this tomorrow and let you know.


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## Mr Chi (May 25, 2005)

no doubt it would take but an email or two....but.....alas... its probably cheaper for them as it is 

lol, its 8am here, I'm off to bed in a minute!


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

Actually Punky tends to eat Shadow's (my daughters dog) food when I'm there so I'm gonna call tomorrow to see if they ship to Puerto Rico.
I like the idea of having Punky around as long as possible and if her diet can make a difference just as our human lives/health can be affected by diet then I like what Life's Abundance has to say about that.
I'm getting obsessed with this forum tonight , time to get to bed :wave:


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## Mr Chi (May 25, 2005)

BTW I meant cheaper for the veterinarians to stock their muck :lol:

I wasnt aware of the other two. I will definately check them out...when I've finally got some sleep


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

Mr Chi said:


> BTW I meant cheaper for the veterinarians to stock their muck :lol:
> 
> I wasn't aware of the other two. I will definitely check them out...when I've finally got some sleep


OK before I run off this morning;
http://www.healthypetnet.com/products/food/dog/zone_dr_jane.asp?realname This site will give info re; the Drs. and other facts

Then CLICK on FOOD then CLICK on "CLICK HERE TO LEARN MORE" and then finally CLICK on COMPARISONS.
You will be able to see a chart.
Somewhere on the site or thru an email one can also obtain a phone number to call to Dr. Bicks at an open conference call and ask her questions. My daughter called and she said one thing Dr. Bicks stressed was it doesn't only have to be her food JUST get your dog on a healthy food to keep them alive longer. NO preservatives and rotten "stuff"or chemicals.

I still like the idea of a Chihuahua specific food so I am still checking out Royal Canin.
Will come back on later :wave:


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## Hollyspup (Mar 18, 2005)

OMG my chi is on Science Diet because my vet said it is good...I was actually thinking about changing it because she just turned a year old. I'm glad I read this article.. Can someone tell me what's really bad about Science Diet? I'm really interested now...
Thanks,
Holly


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

Hollyspup said:


> OMG my chi is on Science Diet because my vet said it is good...I was actually thinking about changing it because she just turned a year old. I'm glad I read this article.. Can someone tell me what's really bad about Science Diet? I'm really interested now...
> Thanks,
> Holly


Well, I'm stating this in my honest opinion only about science diet. i have researched quality pet food ingredients and have founf that science diet has a lot of unhealthy ingredients in it; like by-products (which can be from any part of an animal and can be diseased, dying, or already dead animals). science diet also has corn meal listed as its first ingredient in some of their foods, which means it contains A LOT of fillers, not to mention corn isn't reallt digestable to dogs. there are just a lot of bad ingredients in the food...i don't listen to vets when they tell me "oh, science diet is the best your dog should eat it, blah blah blah blah." I do my own research on my pets food, that way i can be confident they're getting food, healthy stuff. again, this is only my opinion about cience diet...a lot of big brand dog food are like science diet, not to mention they are WAAAAY to expensive for the crappy ingredients in them. i'd rather spend that kind of money on a quality food like Wellness, Nutro, Royal Canin, Innova. By doing your homework when it comes to your pets food, you could actually be giving them a longer life and avoiding future health problems that could be associated with "cheap" foods. When a lot of dogs develope skin allergies, it's usually because of their food.

Well, this is just my opinion on the matter. :wave:


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

Chico's Mama said:


> Hollyspup said:
> 
> 
> > OMG my chi is on Science Diet because my vet said it is good...I was actually thinking about changing it because she just turned a year old. I'm glad I read this article.. Can someone tell me what's really bad about Science Diet? I'm really interested now...
> ...


Your opinion is fitting together with all of my research so far :thumbleft: 
There is an article from The Animal Protection Institute which could be seen as less biased since they do not sell the food. Not surprisingly major _human_ food companies are in the dog food industries are also in the dog food business to use all the waste and unfit products from the human part of the business. I have read over and over how the food we feed our babies can prolong their lives and prevent illness and allergies.
The natural foods are only about a dollar more than I pay for Ekanuba. Punky doesn't even eat very much. She's like my child and I wouldn't feed my children waste. 
From this article I just saw Iams & Ekanuba are made by Proctor & Gamble, don't know why I thought it was a specific dog food company.

Here's the website http://www.api4animals.org/79.htm


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## Hollyspup (Mar 18, 2005)

Thankyou so much for the tips I'll be getting her off that right now....It's hard cause my husband is in the military and we live in Valdosta,GA which is a very small town..They have no big pet stores only family owned ones and all the dog food is cheap and Science Diet was the only good one they had. Good news is we are moving to Corpus Christi,TX next week and they have petsmart and petco( I already did my research)... :lol: So I'll be getting her really good food she only deserves the best...Thanks Again :wave:


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

punky said:


> The natural foods are only about a dollar more than I pay for Ekanuba. Punky doesn't even eat very much.
> Here's the website http://www.api4animals.org/79.htm


That's the great thing about having a chi!  You can go out and spend like $10-$15 on a 6-8 pound bag of really healthy food and it will last a while. It takes Chico like 1 and a half to 2 months to finish a bag of food.


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## Hollyspup (Mar 18, 2005)

Ok so I went to a different pet store and I bought Nutro dog food small bites.I threw away the Science Diet...I made sure there was no By-products and corn meal.Thanks Again
Holly


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

Hollyspup said:


> Ok so I went to a different pet store and I bought Nutro dog food small bites.I threw away the Science Diet...I made sure there was no By-products and corn meal.Thanks Again
> Holly


Nutro is excellent dog food, IMO. Chico ate it as a puppy and had a very smooth, healthy coat. I feed my cats NutroMax gourmet classics because it's the only cat food my Gizmo can eat without throwing up everywhere...so i think that makes it good and i'm stickin with it!


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

Nutro is excellent dog food, IMO. Chico ate it as a puppy and had a very smooth, healthy coat. I feed my cats NutroMax gourmet classics because it's the only cat food my Gizmo can eat without throwing up everywhere...so i think that makes it good and i'm stickin with it! [/quote]

IMO????


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## ilovesadie (Jun 1, 2004)

Ok I'll put my flame suit on for this one, but I'll stick up for the veterinarians in regards to Science Diet, Eukaneuba, Purina, IVD, Royal Canine etc...

Doctors are scientists. They don't go by fads, media, or labels claiming "all natural" or "no by products". They make their best professional nutrition recommendations based on the research that is available regarding daily and prescription diets. 

If a vet recommends a food that hasn't gone through extensive testing to a client, and the dog becomes ill and dies or becomes sick, it is the vet's fault for recommending a bad food. Therefore, a vet can only make recommendations for foods that they can scientifically vouch for and are backed up by years of research and testing that is done by other scientists and veterinary nutritionists. As far as foods that appear to be good by the label, that's all they can say or vouch for. It "sounds good". But since there's no testing, they won't put their license on the line for it, and they won't recommend you put your dog's health on the line for it either.

This same rule appies to medications. Would a veterinarian prescribe a drug that has been unapproved for medical use? Even if it has been lauded by the general public, and someone (not a doctor) has written a few articles praising it and demoting their tried and true medications? No way, that's practicing irresponsible medicine and a malpractice lawsuit in the making. 

Food is much the same way. 

Only a handful of companies have done the scientific testing to show the medical community that their foods are safe and contain the right balance of nutrients and ingredients. These are the companies who veterinarians have no choice but to recommend based on the information that is available. 

I am sure that if some of the fad diet or organic diet companies put the time and money into the R&D that it takes to do a scientific study, that veterinarians would take them more seriously. Since they cannot market their foods through this route, they instead appeal to the general public who is always a sucker for the "all natural" "no additivies" "no by products" deal. I know I am. 

So, before we all scorn our vets for promoting Science Diet, and believe that there is a big conspiracy going on, consider this: your veterinarians job is to practice good medicine and make recommendations for your pets well being based on good science. To do otherwise is NOT sound practice, and while ABC brand of dog food MAY be better, they have not put forth the effort to prove it to the medical community, so instead they go after the companies that have. 

The veterinarian is not necessarily there to make money, in fact they are the lowest paid doctors of all. The pet food industry, however, IS out to make a buck. I would trust a good vet over an article I read on the web any and every day. 

Thanks for listening to my 2cents. 

-Nate


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

ilovesadie said:


> Ok I'll put my flame suit on for this one, but I'll stick up for the veterinarians in regards to Science Diet, Eukaneuba, Purina, IVD, Royal Canine etc...
> 
> Doctors are scientists. They don't go by fads, media, or labels claiming "all natural" or "no by products". They make their best professional nutrition recommendations based on the research that is available regarding daily and prescription diets.
> 
> ...


I can only reply with the article by the Animal Protection Institute which clearly states they don not sell nor recommend food, only the labels to watch and ingredients. http://www.api4animals.org/79.htm They are not the pet food industry.
Also the natural foods are not fad diets this information as been out for years, I just didn't know until now.
I did ask my Vet about "better" foods and he said they're all ok  I trust him with Punky for healthcare but he's not a food expert. I also included some links to Vets opinions. Anyway the links I posted are just the tip of the iceberg and none of them are new. As I've been asking others, I almost feel like I'm in the dark ages because so many others already knew this and have changed their pets. I just see no reason to take a chance with Punky çause it's gonna be hard enough when her time comes so I'll do what I can to keep her around as long as possible.
BUT I really think it's a very individual choice and my intention was to pass on what was "new"news to me. No intention to offend anyone especially a whole profession.


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## luv4mygirls (Feb 20, 2005)

ilovesadie said:


> Ok I'll put my flame suit on for this one, but I'll stick up for the veterinarians in regards to Science Diet, Eukaneuba, Purina, IVD, Royal Canine etc...
> 
> Doctors are scientists. They don't go by fads, media, or labels claiming "all natural" or "no by products". They make their best professional nutrition recommendations based on the research that is available regarding daily and prescription diets.
> 
> ...


was wondering where you were hehe


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

Chico's Mama said:


> Hollyspup said:
> 
> 
> > Ok so I went to a different pet store and I bought Nutro dog food small bites.I threw away the Science Diet...I made sure there was no By-products and corn meal.Thanks Again
> ...



Is this a different Nutro? Çause it says corn gluten meal in ingredients.

Nutro Max Mini Chunk with Real Chicken & Lamb Proteins 
Naturally preserved food for dogs who prefer a smaller bite size. Contains real Chicken and real Lamb proteins. All natural with vitamins and minerals. Up to 46% less backyard clean-up! Formulated for a Healthy Skin and Coat. Maintains clean teeth, fresh breath, and healthy gums. Does not contain Chicken By-Products.

Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, Wheat Flour, Ground Whole Wheat, Rice Bran, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Natural Vitamin E), *Corn Gluten Meal,* Ground Rice, Lamb Meal, Natural Flavors, Yeast Culture, Calcium Carbonate, Monosodium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Dried Buttermilk, Dried Kelp, Dried Egg Product, Lecithin, Zinc Sulfate, Iron Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Oxide, Garlic, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin (source of Vitamin B2), Calcium Iodate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Folic Acid, Copper Sulfate. 

Guaranteed Analysis: 
Crude Protein (minimum) 26 
Crude Fat (minimum) 16 
Moisture (maximum) 10 
Crude Fiber (maximum) 4 

Does anyone know how corn really does affect dogs as far as allergies?


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

Mr Chi said:


> What did you decide on switching to in the end??


Royal Canin's Chi Formula's third ingredient is ground corn.

Which Wellness, do those of you who use it, buy for your Chi?

I found the Wee Bit in the Solid Gold.

Does anyone know if it's important that we buy small breed specific food?

Just waiting now to hear from Abundance Life if they'll ship to Puerto Rico.

At least now I have the choice down to 3. :scratch:


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

punky said:


> Mr Chi said:
> 
> 
> > What did you decide on switching to in the end??
> ...


Well, the thing with Nutro is I think it's a good food...the corn gluten meal isn't necessarily harmful, it's just corn is not easily digested by dogs. something helpful to remember is that the farther down the ingredient list a certain ingredient is, the less there is in it...for example: lets say a dog food lists corn gluten meal as the tenth ingredient, and there are 15 ingredients in the food. since corn gluten meal is the 10th out of 15, there really shouldn't be that much in it.

I feed Chico Wellness. I buy him the dry Super5Mix Chicken flavor. (it's in a purple bag) and i also give him the Wellness canned Chicken and Sweet Potato as a treat (thats in a purple can)

I don't think it's THAT important to buy small breed formula versus regular adult formula, because all dog foods list feeding guidelines for dogs 1-15 lbs (small dogs) but you most likely wouldn't want to feed him a Large Breed formula or anything. I have seen the Royal Canin Chihuahua28 formula but i've never given it to Chico. Theres a few people on here who do feed it to their chi's royal canin and they say really great things about the food. whats most important is that your chi likes the food you are feeding. I tried the Solid Gold Hund-N-Flocken (gold bag) with Chico and he really didn't like it, but he loves the Wellness. 

I'm the same though about Chico's food...I only want the best for him. Here's a link that might be able to help you: http://www.mashvet.com/forms/food_rating1.htm It lists recommended foods..."super premium" being the highest recommended. They also talk about a "human food" diet, but having a dog on that kind of diet is A LOT of work and requires a lot of research and giving supplements...I was considering it but I really don't want to gamble with my chi's health seeing as I have never ever done anything like it before. I hope that link helps you.


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## ilovesadie (Jun 1, 2004)

punky said:


> I can only reply with the article by the Animal Protection Institute which clearly states they don not sell nor recommend food, only the labels to watch and ingredients. http://www.api4animals.org/79.htm They are not the pet food industry.
> Also the natural foods are not fad diets this information as been out for years, I just didn't know until now.
> I did ask my Vet about "better" foods and he said they're all ok  I trust him with Punky for healthcare but he's not a food expert. I also included some links to Vets opinions. Anyway the links I posted are just the tip of the iceberg and none of them are new. As I've been asking others, I almost feel like I'm in the dark ages because so many others already knew this and have changed their pets. I just see no reason to take a chance with Punky çause it's gonna be hard enough when her time comes so I'll do what I can to keep her around as long as possible.
> BUT I really think it's a very individual choice and my intention was to pass on what was "new"news to me. No intention to offend anyone especially a whole profession.


Fad diets have also been around since the dark ages, but are still refered to as "fad diets" by vets because of their verbage and use of "all natural" marketing. Anyhow, I was not stirring a debate, just providing a background on why vets recommend certain diets, and not others. Believe me, there are no "kick-backs" and it is NOT cheaper for our hospital to order Science Diet vs. another brand. What IS to our advantage with science diet is that they provide free veterinary consulatations to staff veterinarians and frequently publish in medical journals regarding veterinary nutrtition research. This is a resource that is much needed, and not provided by any other means. They also continue to keep current on prescription diets to meet the needs of animals with lifetime ailments such as kidney disease, food allergy, and diabetes. 

If you can trust Science Diet to make a diet correctly formulated for a dog with chronic liver disease (there are no others, by the way), why wouldn't their normal adult diets be any less trustworthy?

Again, just giving the other side so that those who are on the fence can make a better decision on what their dogs eat and the level of trust they have with their veterinarians. 

-Nate


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

Chico's Mama said:
 

> punky said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Chi said:
> ...


THANK YOU another HELPFUL link!! Since Chico didn't like Solid Gold, no reason for me to take a chance shipping it down here. So that brings me to 2 choices. Wellness and Life's Abundance. I figure this way, IF there's a chance "some" foods can possibly cause problems, why take a chance,right? Can never hurt to take precautions. I eat enough JUNK food for both of us  
Thank You for your help!!!


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## xx-nathalie-xx (Jan 10, 2005)

i actually don't believe science diet is a bad food !!! it's recommended by vets in the whole world :shock: that site comes over on me as one big ADVERTISEMENT (although i would like to buy it :wink: ) so all the foods are bad and that is the wonderfood :roll: 

i know one thing for sure ....it will take a long time to get me eating a big-mac or a sausage again ....bweek , i don't eat a lot of meat because i'm a bit wary of it ....but now i have it massive again ....yak yak yak

ps i'm not throwing my science diet away that's for sure !!!!!

ps 2 ; is it really possible to let a dog get 25 years old ??

kisses nat

edited because i changed article into site ...as that's what i meant


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

xx-nathalie-xx said:


> i actually don't believe science diet is a bad food !!! it's recommended by vets in the whole world :shock: that article comes over on me as one big ADVERTISEMENT (although i would like to buy it :wink: ) so all the foods are bad and that is the wonderfood :roll:
> 
> i know one thing for sure ....it will take a long time to get me eating a big-mac or a sausage again ....bweek , i don't eat a lot of meat because i'm a bit wary of it ....but now i have it massive again ....yak yak yak
> 
> ...


i wasn't implying that science diet was gonna basically kill any dog that eats it, i was just trying to explain that it has certain ingredients in it aren't really that good for dogs and that a few people i know that fed it to their dogs ended up having to take them to the vet with skin allergies. 

after educating myself about the importance of quality ingredients and the fact that feeding certain foods can actually help dogs live a little longer, i decided to stear clear of any dog food with by-products, BHA/BHT, ethoxyquin, things like that. 

"so all the foods are bad and that is the wonderfood :roll:"
I wasn't implying that all dog foods are bad or harmful and that the foods i'm suggesting are perfect or anything, but if someone asks for my advice on a quality pet food, i'm definitely not going to recommend one with by-products or a ton of fillers in it. i just prefer a dog food with ingredients in it that would be good enough for people to eat. 

Punky is considering buying her dog the same food I feed my dog and she asked me about it, so i answered her. i wasn't trying to imply that it's the "wonderfood." :lol: there are TONS of pet foods out there which have no soy, fillers, wheat, by-products, etc. and i was just suggesting those to Punky because she asked for advice. 

everyone has their own opinions on "quality" dog food. i choose not to go by what vets tell me, i instead educate myself on the matter and go with what i feel is best and what my dog likes. :wave:


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## Mr Chi (May 25, 2005)

I really cannot go along with the argument that because a vet reccomends it it is therefore good, and after the excellent posts made in this thread I personally have been convinced of its inferioriy.
I spoke to my vet today and was taken aback at his honesty, he told me not to buy it for Winston because he needed a more specialised diet being a chihuahua and given that he needs certain elements for his rapid growth over the next few months.
I asked him why he stocked the science plan diet, and the reply was that it was an alround compromise food, for the cost and nutritional aspect - it caters for the slow growers, the fast, the sensitive stomached the strong stomached etc. Its a compromise food enjoyed as you said the world over, but though I admire your defense of veterinarians, they want a large client base and to please everyone. Theres nothing wrong with that, but when you're talking about making a once only decision on the food that will shape your dogs health and that he will eat for the rest of his life - well, I dont want a middle ground, ho-hum food that ticks all the boxes and suits everyone. I want the food that is best suited to MY dog! When I read thru the posts on here I just ended up deciding that it wasnt what I wanted my dog to eat. Whether its good for him or not, who knows what will happen ten years down the line of ingesting it. I respect vets and their practice, but I also recognise that they have obligations too - to stay in business and continue to help and care for animals. If a more suitable product comes out I am sure they'd switch. They can only advise based on their and their global practice's knowledge of medicine and must factor in all their oblgations - that to their clients in providing for their needs, to the animals ensuring that they are catered for (in GENERAL) to their practice to keep the finances going to stay in business etc etc. I just read below that it was said that it was NOT cheaper to buy Science Plan. I think it definately IS. Not maybe the price of the food, but the overall cost in the long run (health of the dog and possible come backs, making sure they cater for all in the best way they can so they can treat more animals) In an ideasl world and if they really really wanted the best for each animal they would make up the natural diet talked of here... http://www.mashvet.com/forms/food_rating1.htm
but its just not practical and we dont live in an ideal world where to satisfy all their needs so they go with what does.

In my opinion. :wave: 



This is a great thread, very very informative!!


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

xx-nathalie-xx said:


> i actually don't believe science diet is a bad food !!! it's recommended by vets in the whole world :shock: that article comes over on me as one big ADVERTISEMENT (although i would like to buy it :wink: ) so all the foods are bad and that is the wonderfood :roll:
> 
> i know one thing for sure ....it will take a long time to get me eating a big-mac or a sausage again ....bweek , i don't eat a lot of meat because i'm a bit wary of it ....but now i have it massive again ....yak yak yak
> 
> ...


No advertisements, no products for sale,no endorsements; just facts;

http://www.api4animals.org/79.htm


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## Mr Chi (May 25, 2005)

Punky you super sleuth!! I'm glad I agree with you!

I've just read it and have to say - thats the best write up I've seen! Surely a sticky for somewhere. I think any repsonsible owner would want to know what was in the food they were thinking of buying and I see many questions on asking for brand advice. Maybe with the READ before you buy you dog food or something.

I wish I'd known before I bought the big sack I've just dumped!


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## xx-nathalie-xx (Jan 10, 2005)

wow   i didn't react on somebody's post ...so people don't take it personal  

as someone said everybody their own opinion ......i read the article and went to the site ...and that's my opinion. so nobody has to feel attacked :wink: 

kisses nat


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## xx-nathalie-xx (Jan 10, 2005)

punky said:


> xx-nathalie-xx said:
> 
> 
> > i actually don't believe science diet is a bad food !!! it's recommended by vets in the whole world :shock: that article comes over on me as one big ADVERTISEMENT (although i would like to buy it :wink: ) so all the foods are bad and that is the wonderfood :roll:
> ...



plus i don't said i don't believe the article !! if you read my post ...you could see i DO believe it


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## Mr Chi (May 25, 2005)

LOL, I dont think anyones upset by what you said, I think its more like light hearted exasperation. It made me chuckle when you posted that nat, cos it had been pages of beasting certain foods and science plan and you came out in defense of science plan. i gotta respect you for reading it and using it to make your mind up 


Aside form that, this stuck me as concurring with all thats been said so far (taken from punk's link)...

_What can the feeding of such products do to your companion animal? Some veterinarians claim that feeding slaughterhouse wastes to animals increases their risk of getting cancer and other degenerative diseases. The cooking methods used by pet food manufacturers -- such as rendering, extruding (a heat-and-pressure system used to "puff" dry foods into nuggets or kibbles), and baking -- do not necessarily destroy the hormones used to fatten livestock or increase milk production, or drugs such as antibiotics or the barbiturates used to euthanize animals._


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## xx-nathalie-xx (Jan 10, 2005)

i noticed you guys take this really by heart !! but i think the site and the science diet doesn't interact with eachother :? i don't believe science diet is made from maggot infested carcasses .......
i try to give my dogs the best foods possible ........ i didn't see a better one here anyway ..;we don't have nutro or life abond.. etc .


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## Hollyspup (Mar 18, 2005)

Well actually I had to throw the Science Diet away anyways becasue she just turned a year old and it was puppy food. So I needed adult food anyways.. Actually, Isabelle seems to really like the Nutro. She would hardly eat the Science Diet.


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

Mr Chi said:


> Punky you super sleuth!! I'm glad I agree with you!
> 
> You're funny!!!


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

Mr Chi said:


> LOL, I dont think anyones upset by what you said, I think its more like light hearted exasperation.
> Aside form that, this stuck me as concurring with all thats been said so far (taken from punk's link)...IT'S PUNK*Y*  Neither I nor she are Punks
> 
> It is exasperation and the frustration of finding the best solution.
> ...


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

Mr Chi said:


> Punky you super sleuth!! I'm glad I agree with you!
> 
> I've just read it and have to say - thats the best write up I've seen! Surely a sticky for somewhere. I think any repsonsible owner would want to know what was in the food they were thinking of buying and I see many questions on asking for brand advice. Maybe with the READ before you buy you dog food or something.
> 
> I wish I'd known before I bought the big sack I've just dumped!


STICKY?


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## xx-nathalie-xx (Jan 10, 2005)

you can ask on of the mods to get it stickied :wink: 

the article was interesting.....but as we know this problem is not only for animals food but also for humans food. we eat garbage every day if you like it or not. sure i look at the back of products ....and try to eat as healthy as possible ....but i'm not going to overreact and let it run my life!
i checked the life abundance site ....and are you telling me they have no commercial interest ?? come on .... :? i'm honest i would like to give the brand to my dogs ...but don't overreact with saying science hill's and eukanuba etc are bad foods .....they are not.
i believe brands from big chains are crap (i can't name brands , because here they call different) and probably full of things one might better not know.
i know 80 percent of this site feeds their chi's ...eukanuba ,science hill's etc because they believe it's good ...so to predict they are bad is really fishy :wink: 

that's the last thing i'm going to write about it ........i just half agree with it and half not agree with it :wink: .....but as i always say ...live and let live :wink: :wave: 

kisses nat


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## luv4mygirls (Feb 20, 2005)

xx-nathalie-xx said:


> you can ask on of the mods to get it stickied :wink:
> 
> the article was interesting.....but as we know this problem is not only for animals food but also for humans food. we eat garbage every day if you like it or not. sure i look at the back of products ....and try to eat as healthy as possible ....but i'm not going to overreact and let it run my life!
> i checked the life abundance site ....and are you telling me they have no commercial interest ?? come on .... :? i'm honest i would like to give the brand to my dogs ...but don't overreact with saying science hill's and eukanuba etc are bad foods .....they are not.
> ...


that's what i say, i'm half way on this one....

believe some of what you hear and most of what you see..... 

(can really believe all of what you see, since ther are illusinists hehe)


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

xx-nathalie-xx said:


> you can ask on of the mods to get it stickied :wink:
> 
> the article was interesting.....but as we know this problem is not only for animals food but also for humans food. we eat garbage every day if you like it or not. sure i look at the back of products ....and try to eat as healthy as possible ....but i'm not going to overreact and let it run my life!
> i checked the life abundance site ....and are you telling me they have no commercial interest ?? come on .... :? i'm honest i would like to give the brand to my dogs ...but don't overreact with saying science hill's and eukanuba etc are bad foods .....they are not.
> ...


*i checked the life abundance site ....and are you telling me they have no commercial interest ?? come on .... :? *

The link I posted with the article that Mr. Chi and I are referring to with no commercial interest is NOT on the Life's Abundance site. (That was purely a food suggested as healthy.)
The site is http://www.api4animals.org/79.htm Which is the Animal Protection Institute :lol:


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

xx-nathalie-xx said:


> i noticed you guys take this really by heart !! but i think the site and the science diet doesn't interact with eachother :? i don't believe science diet is made from maggot infested carcasses .......
> i try to give my dogs the best foods possible ........ *i didn't see a better **one here anyway ..;we don't have nutro or life abond.. etc *.


Actually I saw one you have that looks really good  

Burns Pet Nutrition (Scotland)Ltd 3 Portland Ave, Irvine, Ayrshire KA12 8NL Tel 01294 270953 
Freephone 0800169 4535 Fax 01294 270954 | contact by email 
Belgium - Web site Tel. 032320918 Fax. 032322584 

http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/store/index.html

Have you heard of it? Has lots of choices too!


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## Mr Chi (May 25, 2005)

LOL! Punky and Nat slug it out  .....

:argue: :boxing: 

hehe!


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

xx-nathalie-xx said:


> wow   i didn't react on somebody's post ...so people don't take it personal
> 
> as someone said everybody their own opinion ......i read the article and went to the site ...and that's my opinion. so nobody has to feel attacked :wink:
> 
> kisses nat


I think we all just need to agree to disagree on this one.  We can all bring facts and opinions to the table on this subject, but in the end...who's really right? Nobody knows... :lol:


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## xx-nathalie-xx (Jan 10, 2005)

punky ...i live in Belgium sweety :wink: 

and mr chi ...if you think we've been slugging it out ....you haven't been around the forum for long  this is nothing.... just a conversation we disagree on ..

but i agree food for my dogs ,can never be good enough ....so maybe i will order something when i find a site that ships overseas :wave: 

kisses nat


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

punky said:


> xx-nathalie-xx said:
> 
> 
> > i try to give my dogs the best foods possible ........ *i didn't see a better **one here anyway ..;we don't have nutro or life abond.. etc *.
> ...



Right, I had included the number above the link for Belgium in the post.
One of my good friends has relocated to Belgium, hope to visit her.


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## xx-nathalie-xx (Jan 10, 2005)

oops didn't saw it :wink: does she has a website or only the telephone number?

kisses nat


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

xx-nathalie-xx said:


> oops didn't saw it :wink: does she has a website or only the telephone number?
> 
> kisses nat


You can click on the link and see all the info and then see if there's another link specifically for Belgium. I have to run but will check back later to see if you found one. :wave:


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

xx-nathalie-xx said:


> punky
> 
> and mr chi ...if you think we've been slugging it out ....you haven't been around the forum for long  this is nothing.... just a conversation we disagree on ..
> 
> ...


Awwwww I'm glad you feel that way too Nathalie, would never want to offend. It was a good round of discussion for me, not a battle.


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

xx-nathalie-xx said:


> but don't overreact with saying science hill's and eukanuba etc are bad foods .....they are not.
> i believe brands from big chains are crap (i can't name brands , because here they call different) and probably full of things one might better not know.
> i know 80 percent of this site feeds their chi's ...eukanuba ,science hill's etc because they believe it's good ...so to predict they are bad is really fishy :wink:


ok, i have to just post this one last little thing...nat, you said you don't believe science diet, eukanuba, etc are not bad foods? well, thats totally great because you are entitled to your opinion :wink: but, you go on to say you believe brands from big chains are crap...i just wanted to point out eukanuba (which is made by Iams) and science diet are HUGE dog food companies. i understand what you mean though....you're probably talking about commercial brands that are sold in grovery stores? science diet and eukanuba are certainly not sold in grocery stores  so yes, they are of higher quality...they are premium brands. i just wish those companies would consider changing their formulas to include healthier ingredients...that way they could be listed at super premium foods.  :wave:


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

xx-nathalie-xx said:


> oops didn't saw it :wink: does she has a website or only the telephone number?
> 
> kisses nat


Iwas just looking, can't even find the site i originally had for Belgium now :? But i did click here and read more and this guy is has done the same as the Vet for Life's Abundance.
http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/store/index.html


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## xx-nathalie-xx (Jan 10, 2005)

yeah chico's mama i meant brands that are fabricated for shops and that are very cheap . i didn't know how to phrase it ....and i can't name one because they are called differently here :wink: 

punky i went on that site too , but they don't ship overseas  

kisses nat


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

xx-nathalie-xx said:


> yeah chico's mama i meant brands that are fabricated for shops and that are very cheap . i didn't know how to phrase it ....and i can't name one because they are called differently here :wink:
> 
> punky i went on that site too , but they don't ship overseas
> 
> kisses nat


What about the telephone number they give for Belgium? That website is in the UK.


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## lee73 (Jun 16, 2005)

*chihuahua chef*

Um, okay, this is probably going to be only the first of many embarassing admissions, but....I actually cook for my chi. I don't feed her "dog food" of any sort if there is any way to avoid it. Now, of course, there is no going back. Carlota (my chi) naturally won't eat anything form a can. 

She eats chicken (baked or boiled) vegetables (loves loves loves veggies) eggs (hard boiled) tuna (the only thing from a can she WILL eat) and pasta and rice. 

I just don't see why dogs should have to eat "special" food, escpecially if that "special" food is not fit for human consumption. Don't trust it.

Is anyone else out there a star chihuahua chef?


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

*Re: chihuahua chef*



lee73 said:


> Um, okay, this is probably going to be only the first of many embarassing admissions, but....I actually cook for my chi. I don't feed her "dog food" of any sort if there is any way to avoid it. Now, of course, there is no going back. Carlota (my chi) naturally won't eat anything form a can.
> 
> She eats chicken (baked or boiled) vegetables (loves loves loves veggies) eggs (hard boiled) tuna (the only thing from a can she WILL eat) and pasta and rice.
> 
> ...


Wow lee, i give you A LOT of credit. having your chi on a diet like that must take tons of work. i know people who have their dogs on a diet like that and they say it's very hard because you have to give supplements and make sure they're getting enough nutrients and everything. i was considering having chico on a diet like that, but honestly it seemed like a lot of work and i'm inexperienced at it...didn't want to gamble with his health. 

i bet your chi loves it though! i feed mine a food which is considered "super premium" and most everyone on here is really health concious when it comes to their chi's. we only feed them good food. i don't think you'll find anyone on here who feeds their chi "Alpo" or anything...lol. 

Welcome to the forum! Can't wait to see pics of your chi!


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## Mr Chi (May 25, 2005)

well, as long as the food you cook is tailored nutritionally to your chi then thats the ultimate in chi cuisine! At least you'll know no horrors are in it! You'll have to post some recipes!!!

Welcome to the forum!

James


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## lee73 (Jun 16, 2005)

*it's not too much work...if you like cooking*

Chico is adorable!!!!!

You can see Carlota by clicking on the http: address at the bottom of my post.

You know, seriously, it is not that much work. I suppose it helps that both my husband and I really love to cook. Here's what we do: We usually just set aside a portion of whatever we are going to cook for ourselves (say, chicken, fish, steak) and we prepare it with out oil and no frying- either on the grill or baked or boiled. Then we add carrots (she flips out for carrots) and some kind of carb, like pasta or rice, mix it all together and that is her food for the next day. Sometimes we will just prepare something ahead of time and keep a big batch in the fridge for her. I just made her a pasta salad...tri-clored rotini, tuna, carrots and chick peas...cut it all up and there is a batch for her and a slightly more complicated version for my husband and me. 

I do occasionally give Carlota Nutri-Cal (a nutrient supliment...shhhh, she thinks it is just a yummy treat), but I think the food she eats is pretty nutritious.

I am sure that everyone here cares tremendously about what their dogs are eating (no "alpo" hehehe). In fact, I am so glad to be in the company of others who love their chihuahuas soooooo much. Carlota was a finicky eater from the get go and I had heard and read that many chihuahuas are. I tried several premium brands of dog food and she hated them all. In fact, the only one she seemed to like was the one they had been feeding her at the pet shop (puppy mill, that's a whole different story) where I got her and that was worse than alpo...so I just took matters into my own hands.

Nice talking to you. Again, Chico is so very cute.

Lee


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

Thanx lee! Chico LOVES compliments...  I tried the link under your post to see a pic of your chi, but the link doesnt work :? 

i talked to this lady who feeds her chi the kind of foods you feed your, and she said her chi won't even LOOK at dog food after being on an all "human food" diet. chi's can be finicky eaters...i had to change chico's puppy food twice and his adult food twice. he loves the food he has now though, thank goodness


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## lee73 (Jun 16, 2005)

*computer illiterate*

Ugh...I am going to have to find a way to post a picture of Carlota. Sorry the link doesn't work. I will try to figure this out.


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## ilovekeiki (Jun 16, 2005)

Just wondering everyone, but what kind of food DO you feed your babies? I was told eukanuba was really good, but i am thinking about the all human food diet. The only thing holding me back is chis need so many nutrients how would i get them all to her? But mainly my question is what food do you guys recommend? and is eukanuba good?


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## lee73 (Jun 16, 2005)

*hello*

Hi ilovekeiki,

When Carlota was a puppy I tried to feed her dry eukanuba and she just wasn't having it. I have heard and read that eukanuba is pretty good. Carlota, unfortunately was hooked to this sludgy cheap wet food they'd been feeding her at the puppy place where I got her.

Chihuahuas are finicky eaters not because they are spoiled rotten, but because their sense of smell is less developed than most other dogs (read this in an article I will try to post for everyone) and basically if a dog can't smell it, they won't eat it. So, sure enough the stuff that Carlota loved was really smelly and she ate it all up.

The only way to find out what your chi will eat is trial and error. There are so many theories about what dogs should and shouldn't eat in terms of nutrition...it can be tricky cooking for your dog, but rewarding too. I am going to try to find that article and post it here. Good luck.


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

ilovekeiki said:


> Just wondering everyone, but what kind of food DO you feed your babies? I was told eukanuba was really good, but i am thinking about the all human food diet. The only thing holding me back is chis need so many nutrients how would i get them all to her? But mainly my question is what food do you guys recommend? and is eukanuba good?


Go back and read this whole thread and you will have ALOT (maybe too much info ) I am now stopping Ekanuba for Punky because it is made with animal *by-products* not the meat itself and has a lot of chemicals. As you can read in the thread, I would recommend, Solid Gold, Wellness or Life's Abundance. In Europe; Burns. I did hours and hours of web reading and searching to come to this conclusion, so you may want to do the same research.
But do read this thread from the beginning for lots of opinions!!!!


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

The thread "What do your Chi Puppies Eat"is discussing this again, anyway, someone over there says Burns is really good so I hope you found it Nat!!


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## bstrobes (Jun 16, 2005)

Ok, I've just spent way too much time while at work reading this thread. I live in the US. It seems like everyone seems to agree that the Wellness brand is the best. Is that in the US? If not,, what's a good one in the US? I know Petsmart sells Royal Canin, but I see where some of you said it's still not quite as good as Wellness. I want to get the best for my kids. Thanks ya'll!


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## ilovesadie (Jun 1, 2004)

Just because Eukaneuba contains by-products does not mean it is not a good diet for your dog. Punky, I appreciate your passion for all natural dog foods, but going against a veterinary nutritionist's recommendations is something that I cannot endorse. Bashing foods made by major companies with scientific research backing based on your own research is also not necessary. 

I too feed Wellness to my dogs, but I don't preach it as the be all to end all dog foods, nor do I scorn any food that has ingredients that are "sub-par". I would trust Science Diet or Eukaneuba or IVD or VMD or Waltham to provide the right balance of nutrients and appropriate protein sources for everday dog foods. Afterall, these companies also produce specialized diets for liver, kidney failure, urinary problems, diabetes, allergies, and weight loss. If their basic diets cannot be trusted, why are their prescription diets also approved and trusted by so many doctors? The FDA's CVM works with AAFCO to develop standards for nutrtition, and in order to be certified, manufacturers must first show they meet these standards scientifically, and then back it up with appropriate testing. Beward of foods that say they "fit the AAFCO profile" for nutrition. This does not mean they are certified.

Here is a link from the FDA:
http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2001/301_pet.html

A good article by a veterinarian about pet food labels:
http://petcaretips.net/reading-pet-food-label.html#Other_Labels


Why do I feed Wellness/Natural Balance then? 
My dogs love it, and I would rather them eat than not eat at all. From the ingredients and experience, Wellness appears to be a great food. But I say appears because it hasn't been tested. This means my dogs are the lab rats, but it's a risk at this point that I have been forced to take. 

Several "MYTH'S" Taken from www.petdiets.com (written by veterinary nutritionists) with regards to pet diets:

Pet Food Myths

*Homemade diets are nutritionally better and healthier than commercially prepared foods.*

Unless properly formulated by a nutritionist, diets made at home are not likely to be nutritionally complete and balanced. The nutritional profile of any diet—including homemade diets—depends on how the recipe was formulated, the nutrient content of the ingredients, and how the owner prepares the diet. Homemade diets may also contain contaminants and food-borne microbes if the owner is not as careful as he or she is about his or her own foods.

Federally regulated, commercially prepared foods have processing methods and quality assurance programs that limit the potential of food-borne illnesses in pets and offer guarantees, a nutritional profile, and bioavailability.

*Preservatives cause cancer and other diseases.*

There is no scientific evidence to support the often repeated claim that preservatives cause cancer. In fact, just the opposite may be true, as preservatives added to pet foods can help prevent the formation of cancer-causing compounds.
*
Do ingredients really matter to pets?*

To most of the pets consuming commercially prepared pet foods... NO! The final nutrient profile of a pet food is most important factor in meeting your pet’s daily nutritional needs. If the food meets your pet’s nutrient profile, it does not matter whether the sources of those nutrients are beef, chicken or soybean. The liver does not care whether it is receiving the necessary essential amino acids for protein synthesis from chicken by product meal, tofu, or a protein hydroslate.

The ingredients do however affect taste. The very best nutrient profile is of no use if the animal will not consume the food. Most pets do not refuse most foods: look at the incidence of obesity in our pet population. Most pet foods are designed to be very palatable because repeat sales of pet food are for the most part dependent upon the owner thinking the pet “likes” the food. This “race” for the most palatable food in the market is in part responsible for the most common nutritional problem in pets... obesity.

*
Do ingredients really matter to pet owners?*

Yes, apparently they do. The pet food marketing teams are playing that card for all it’s worth and in any direction necessary to make a sale, hence the importance of naming the product. Also note the advertising statements that a product “does not contain soy, corn, or wheat”; such statements imply there is something wrong with these ingredients and hence the foods containing them. In fact, there are no problems associated with these ingredients unless your pet demonstrates allergic reactions to them.

When does the ingredient list really matter?

Knowing the ingredient list only really matters when a pet has a food “allergy,” better described as food hypersensitivity. The incidence of true food hypersensitivity in the dog and cat population is not exactly known, but several published studies estimate the incidence to be less than 10%.

Pet foods contain fat and fat-soluble vitamins that readily oxidize when exposed to air. Fat oxidation produces toxic compounds called peroxides that can disrupt cell membranes—and loss of cell membrane integrity has been linked to some types of cancer. Preservatives protect the fat and vitamins from oxidizing in the presence of air.

Those of you who know me know that I go by tried, true, scientific facts and recommendations by doctors. 2 things are certain:
1. Doctors do NOT recommend home-cooking meals for dogs without the consulation of a veterinary nutritionist to formulate a specialized and 
ingredients for your animal. 
2. Doctors do NOT recommend foods produced by companies that have not PROVEN their foods are safe or include the right balance of nutrients and appropriate protein sources. Following an AAFCO profile (as in the case with Wellness, Solid Gold, etc...) is a good thing, but AAFCO certification is even better, and a recommendation by a veterinarian is the best.


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

ilovesadie said:


> Just because Eukaneuba contains by-products does not mean it is not a good diet for your dog.


i agree with ya...i feed chico wellness because he likes it. i just prefer foods that have no by-products and things like that. people have been feeding their dogs foods with by-products in them for YEARS! i just choose not to have chico eat foods with them in them. i personally don't care for eukanuba because its made my Iams, and i don't like how Iams treats the animals they do their testing on...not dissing the food, just dissing the makers of it.


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

bstrobes said:


> Ok, I've just spent way too much time while at work reading this thread. I live in the US. It seems like everyone seems to agree that the Wellness brand is the best. Is that in the US? If not,, what's a good one in the US? I know Petsmart sells Royal Canin, but I see where some of you said it's still not quite as good as Wellness. I want to get the best for my kids. Thanks ya'll!


Yes it's in the USA, as someone else earlier suggested it can be ordered online from www.petfooddirect.com OR if you go to their site www.oldmotherhubbard.com you can search by your zipcode to find a retailer.
Don't forget to check out healthy snacks. I just threw most of mine in the trash 'cause they were full of corn meal (hard to digest and possible food allergies) but mostly because they all had chicken or beef *by-products*.[/b]


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

I just posted this over on "what does your Chi eat?". But since it was discussed so much here, I thought I should post it here as well  :

Finally made my choice, I settled on Wellness, I ordered the chicken one and also the fish and sweet potato one to give her a little variety.
Plus I ordered a bunch of the biscuits and treats as well. So glad that's settled!


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

punky said:


> I just posted this over on "what does your Chi eat?". But since it was discussed so much here, I thought I should post it here as well  :
> 
> Finally made my choice, I settled on Wellness, I ordered the chicken one and also the fish and sweet potato one to give her a little variety.
> Plus I ordered a bunch of the biscuits and treats as well. So glad that's settled!


glad ya finally settled on a food :wink: just make sure when you make the switch between your chi's old food and the new food that you do it gradually. you don't want her to get sick.


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

Chico's Mama said:


> glad ya finally settled on a food :wink: just make sure when you make the switch between your chi's old food and the new food that you do it gradually. you don't want her to get sick.


Oh my gosh! I am so glad you reminded me of that. I was going to throw the other out as soon as it arrived! Thank You so much :cheers:


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## bstrobes (Jun 16, 2005)

Thanks so much Punky!!


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## bstrobes (Jun 16, 2005)

Is Old Mother Hubbard the same as Wellness?


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## Chico's Mama (May 22, 2005)

bstrobes said:


> Is Old Mother Hubbard the same as Wellness?


wellness food is made by the old mother hubbard company, but its not the same. i think old mother hubbard only makes treats, and the wellness and neura are the foods. try going to www.oldmotherhubbard.com it will show you all the foods/treats they make.


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

ilovesadie said:


> Just because Eukaneuba contains by-products does not mean it is not a good diet for your dog. Punky, I appreciate your passion for all natural dog foods, but going against a veterinary nutritionist's recommendations is something that I cannot endorse. Bashing foods made by major companies with scientific research backing based on your own research is also not necessary.
> 
> I too feed Wellness to my dogs, but I don't preach it as the be all to end all dog foods, nor do I scorn any food that has ingredients that are "sub-par". I would trust Science Diet or Eukaneuba or IVD or VMD or Waltham to provide the right balance of nutrients and appropriate protein sources for everday dog foods. Afterall, these companies also produce specialized diets for liver, kidney failure, urinary problems, diabetes, allergies, and weight loss. If their basic diets cannot be trusted, why are their prescription diets also approved and trusted by so many doctors? The FDA's CVM works with AAFCO to develop standards for nutrtition, and in order to be certified, manufacturers must first show they meet these standards scientifically, and then back it up with appropriate testing. Beward of foods that say they "fit the AAFCO profile" for nutrition. This does not mean they are certified.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input. I guess at this point I feel better feeding Punky food with natural ingredients and not all the other mixed in stuff.

*I do have a question for you though. I ordered the chicken and the fish with sweet potatoes. I guess that was wrong since the fish can be a problem according to prior posting from;*quote: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by luv4mygirls
be careful introducing ingredients such as fish, venisen, lamb, duck ect. they are consider allergy foods and should only be given if there is a chicken/beef/turkey allergy. if you introduce the other foods they could work up an intolerance to those protiens as well..... 

*So I guess I should cancel the fish. Can't we give a variety just like people do when they feed wet food? And also what about Lee who is cooking her dogs food and giving choices? Her dog is OK with the different foods including fish. See below post;*

QUOTE
You know, seriously, it is not that much work. I suppose it helps that both my husband and I really love to cook. Here's what we do: We usually just set aside a portion of whatever we are going to cook for ourselves (say, chicken, fish, steak) and we prepare it with out oil and no frying- either on the grill or baked or boiled. Then we add carrots (she flips out for carrots) and some kind of carb, like pasta or rice, mix it all together and that is her food for the next day. Sometimes we will just prepare something ahead of time and keep a big batch in the fridge for her. I just made her a pasta salad...tri-clored rotini, tuna, carrots and chick peas...cut it all up and there is a batch for her and a slightly more complicated version for my husband and me. 

I do occasionally give Carlota Nutri-Cal (a nutrient supliment...shhhh, she thinks it is just a yummy treat), but I think the food she eats is pretty nutritious. 

I am sure that everyone here cares tremendously about what their dogs are eating (no "alpo" hehehe). In fact, I am so glad to be in the company of others who love their chihuahuas soooooo much. Carlota was a finicky eater from the get go and I had heard and read that many chihuahuas are. I tried several premium brands of dog food and she hated them all. In fact, the only one she seemed to like was the one they had been feeding her at the pet shop (puppy mill, that's a whole different story) where I got her and that was worse than alpo...so I just took matters into my own hands.


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## ilovesadie (Jun 1, 2004)

The whole idea with the danger of various protein sources is that there is not really that they will develop a food allergy, it has to do more with the availbility of these protein sources.

Currently, the vast population of dogs feed on foods that are mainly chicken, and beef product (and recently lamb). Many times, the food allergies that dogs have involve the protein source, which is why foods like IVD have diets like rabbit, duck, venison. They are not "allergy diets" per se, but instead have ingredients that from different sources than normal dog foods. 

Now is feeding your dog food that has fish, or duck in it bad for them? No, not really, in fact it's quite nice to have a variety of protein sources in the diet. Mandy is right, it does increase the possibility of a food allergy, but you will know if it does cause one. 

Why is feeding your dog a variety of protein sources bad? It's not really bad for your dog if they aren't allergic, in fact it may be good. But it's bad in the long run for other dogs. The only reason (I've asked a dozen vet nutritionists this question) is that there is only so much availability of protein sources out there, with chicken, beef, and lamb being the most available. If dogs without allergies consume all the other protein sources like duck, rabbit, and venison, there may not be much supply left to feed those with allergies. In addition, if dogs are exposed to all of these protein sources and become allergic by continued exposure, what protein source will be left to feed these dogs? We'll have to start looking elsewhere for meat like Kangaroo, horse, pork, etc...

Hopefully that makes a little sense. This is why many of the alternative protein foods are prescription only, to make sure that the protein sources are not wasted on dogs without allergy. 

I think that a little fish mixed in with the other protein sources can be a great addition to the diet since Omega-3's are key, but I wouldn't switch them to an all duck or rabbit diet just for the heck of it. 

If you have any other questions, ask your vet about it or I can try to answer them.

-Nate


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## porshas_momma (May 19, 2005)

:roll: i DONT KNOW ABOUT ALL STATES BUT MOST STATES TAKE THERE ROAD KILL AND PUT IT INTO COMPOST PILES AND USE IN PARK AREAS AND HERE OKLAHOMA UTHENISED ANIMALS ARE TAKEN TO THE LOCAL DUMPS. (I HAVE BEEN THERE AND IT IS A SAD SAD SIGHT BUT THE ANIMALS ARE IN SEALED WHITE PLASTIC BAGS. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY WAY COMPANIES ARE USING DOGS AND CATS IN PET FOODS. hOWEVER ALL OUTHER MEATS THAT HUMANS EAT AND A FEW WE DONT THE LEFT OVERS ( all of them) ARE USED FOR FEED PURPOSES. bECAUSE I HAVE GROWN UP AROUND TRRUCK DRIVERS WHO HAUL THE WASTE I KNOW QUITE ABIT ( OR I'D LIKE TO THINK SO ANYWAY)HAHAHA BUT SERIOUSELY I HAVE NEVER ONCE HEARD OF CATS AND DOGS BEING INCLUDED. i DO FEEL AS A SOSIETY WE TAKE WHAT WE FEED OUR PETS TO THE EXTREME ( im just as guilty as the next person) Animals in the wild including cats and dogs will eat anything to survive they are not that fragile. :wink:


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## punky (May 31, 2004)

ilovesadie said:


> The whole idea with the danger of various protein sources is that there is not really that they will develop a food allergy, it has to do more with the availbility of these protein sources.
> 
> Currently, the vast population of dogs feed on foods that are mainly chicken, and beef product (and recently lamb). Many times, the food allergies that dogs have involve the protein source, which is why foods like IVD have diets like rabbit, duck, venison. They are not "allergy diets" per se, but instead have ingredients that from different sources than normal dog foods.
> 
> ...


V
Thank You again! Are you a Veternarian or student Vet ?(thought I read something way back about you both being students)
I will talk to my Vet, problem is I live in Puerto Rico and there isn't any natural food product for dogs here. I had to order online. I asked him once briefly a year ago about food and he said they're about the same. The breeder had fed Punky Ekanuba and my Vet sold it so I just stuck with it. She's over 16 months old and still on puppy food. So it's time to change. He wanted her on puppy food until a year old because he said she's small. But there aren't many Chi's on the Island so experience is different here and I don't think she's so small. A Vet in the States, while I was visiting, said he didn't agree and to change her to Adult food. I didn't, think it mattered enough to make my Vet feel second guessed so I just let it be, since she seems really healthy. Anyway he's very competent and he's great so I'll go have a chat with him. Maybe I can help bring some other products to the Island. 
My experience is in the Human medical field and I know medical professionals can get a bit huffy when challenged.

Thank you again, you've explained things clearly and taken a lot of time to do so.

PS I guess Pinky *will* get chicken and fish choices then, so she thanks you too!!


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## ilovesadie (Jun 1, 2004)

Punky's mom, I'm a veterinary student with years of experience as a veterinary technician. I've done a lot of research as well in various areas so my background in the field is pretty good =) 

Glad I can help out! -Nate


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## oliversmom (Apr 12, 2005)

It's so interesting to read all this. I became a new dog owner about a year ago and started investigating like crazy and came to a quick conclusion early on that just because a vet sells it in their offices, doesn't necessarily make it the best food for them. I do think thank goodness there are "some" really good premium foods out there. I really do my homework, check out order of ingredients, avoid ones with fillers and junk they don't need. I tried a few, all good, but obviously you also want one your dog seems to like. I have now settled on EVO by Innova and just feel really good about it. I started Oliver out on Wellness and LOVED it and felt that was just top notch but unfortunately he didn't eat it that well. I may try it again sometime down the road.

I also noticed the thread about shedding and though Oliver sheds "some" but not that much and I wonder if what we feed them has "some" bearing. 

Anyway this website will take you to a comparison chart where you can pull up various brands of foods and compare one to another. This is just one of many websites that helped me when I was learning about all this. 
http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=comp-wiz


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