# Chi shape, face etc puppy to adult



## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

Hi all,

I was just wondering if anyone knows how 'permanent' or how reliable the shape of a puppy who is 5-6 weeks old is? As in do they change a lot or is it pretty reliable to predict etc how they should generally look? Ie if the nose/head doesn't look apple shaped it most likely won't be apple etc or if the eyes are a certain size they will stay that size in proportion to face etc etc?

Or does a 5-6 week old puppies shape change drastically?

I am asking in relation to a particular pup whos looks (other than colour) seem different to mum and dad.

Thanks for your help!


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

Hi!! I think they definitely do a change a ton from 5-6 weeks. In my experience, they end up looking like one of the parents. Lola is a spinning image of her mom, Mimi looks just like her mom, and although Leo got his coat from his mom, his facial features are his dad. 

Are the parents apple head?? Do you have any pictures?

This is Leo, top left is his pic at 6 weeks, then going clockwise 12 weeks, 5 months, 11 months, 1.5 years old and 2 years old (now). As you can see, he changed a ton. I knew he and Mimi were both apple heads when they were puppies and their breeder does not breed deer heads. Hope this helps!!



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## Lubu (Jan 31, 2014)

Lubu changed a lot!! His skull seemed to grow the most, getting a lot rounder and more Chihuahua-like. He is 15 weeks old now, and when people see him they can tell he is a Chihuahua. When he was 8-10 weeks old he didn't really have the defined features.


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## debrawade10 (Oct 10, 2013)

Pictures are worth a thousand words... Lily did change, but not a ton.
These are from 12 weeks at the top through 10 mos. at the bottom, hope this helps


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

At that age you can get pretty drastic changes especially with muzzle, I think the shape of the head will get larger but that will probably not change that much. IMO, you can tell by looking at puppy and mom/dad and tell if they are going to be applehead. I have seen muzzles get much longer. In well bred pups where they are breeding for shorter muzzles and more prominent stops they usually do not change as much though. 

Are you worried that the puppy did not come from the parents that the breeder is stating he/she did? That is possible also if you are not dealing with a responsible breeder and also they can have several different fathers if not a planned breeding so you never can really tell if not dealing with a reputable breeder. 

Also 5 to 6 weeks is much too young to be getting a Chihuahua and if a breeder is wiling to let the baby go at this age that is a HUGE red flag and I would look elsewhere. A chihuahua pup should not leave mom or littermates until 8 weeks at the very earliest and 10 to 13 weeks is even better.


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## CuddlesMom (Feb 22, 2014)

I got Cuddles at 14 weeks old, but I have pictures from the breeder when she was even younger than that (maybe 7-8 weeks old.) She has changed _ a lot_ since then, and she is eight months old, now. Her face was much rounder and baby-looking back then. She's even changed since I actually got her. 

I love looking at her baby pictures, because she was so adorable. 

She's still a deer-faced chi. That doesn't really matter too much to me, though.


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## Chihuahuaobsession (Apr 27, 2013)

I do believe that it depends on the puppy but mines have changed. For example this girl Jade's parents had huge round apple heads and round eyes with a small body. They were adorable. When we picked her out at 3 weeks her head was round and at 6 weeks it was still nicely rounded but at 8 weeks my husband said he thought she was looking more like a deer head type. He was right. I still love the way she looks and I am very happy to have her but if someone were extremely picky they may have re-homed her. I think if you want to certain of the way your dog will look as an adult, you should look into an older puppy. Puppies are full of surprises!


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

This is why it is important to go to a good breeder. A good breeder will be able to tell you how a 6 week old puppy will turn out. The finer points are variable and do change as the puppy matures, but whether the pup is show quality or pet quality will be obvious. A deer headed puppy is obvious from a very young age.


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## Chihuahuaobsession (Apr 27, 2013)

Wicked Pixie said:


> This is why it is important to go to a good breeder. A good breeder will be able to tell you how a 6 week old puppy will turn out. The finer points are variable and do change as the puppy matures, but whether the pup is show quality or pet quality will be obvious. A deer headed puppy is obvious from a very young age.


I disagree, yes there are apple heads that look well defined but not all chihuahuas are strictly apple head or strictly deer head there are some in between. Show breeders can have puppies with longer snouts and a deer shaped head. No one, not even the most experienced breeder could tell you how a puppies head or structure will turn out with certainty. Its impossible, they may have an idea but they should clearly say that it varies as puppies change. Also at 6 weeks you cannot see if a puppy will or will not be show quality. Show breeders may retain puppies if they look like they can be show quality but until at least 6 months of age they do not know for certain. There are many qualities that a show dog must have that many dog owners wouldn't even notice. For example the position of the tail and teeth which can vary as the dog ages. Before getting my last puppy, I was in contact with a show breeder from another state; she waits until at least 12 weeks to tell the family if the pup has a possibility of being show quality. In my opinion at 6 weeks you can have a "general" idea, but weight, coloring, head shape and even personalities are so different and change so much. I do agree that its important to get a puppy from a good breeder. My last girl has a very rounded apple head and large eyes shes 1 lb and 14 oz at 10 months and I got her at 6 months, I was very happy because I already knew she wouldn't get too much bigger and I wasn't spending all day trying to figure out what she would look like and she was already potty trained which was great.


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## Chiluv04 (Dec 19, 2013)

I agree. My puppy Ava is clearly an applehead, but her parents have longer muzzles. And Braxton came from a litter of 4, her brother had a huge well defined applehead and short muzzle, however Braxton's sister had a longer muzzle, and Braxton is in between. Her breeder breeds both, but lean more towards applehead. I do also agree that be it deer head or applehead no two types have the same length muzzle or same size head. Prime example is Linda's 3 appleheads, though they all clearly look like appleheads they also look different in that their head shapes and muzzle lengths are all different. Some deerheads have really long muzzles, some don't. Where I've seen appleheads who's eyes are too bulgy or muzzles are wayyyyyy too flat. I love my deerheads and appleheads regardless. And might I add that breeders.... Even the most reputable can't guarantee every little thing. They cannot guarantee weight, or how long or how short a muzzle will be, or how huge or small a head they will have. It is important that when searching for a puppy, to find a breeder that breeds healthy, happy dogs, and as far as looks, go with what you like. That is what's most important. 


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## CHITheresa (Apr 30, 2011)

Puppy










now


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Chihuahuaobsession said:


> I disagree, yes there are apple heads that look well defined but not all chihuahuas are strictly apple head or strictly deer head there are some in between. Show breeders can have puppies with longer snouts and a deer shaped head. No one, not even the most experienced breeder could tell you how a puppies head or structure will turn out with certainty. Its impossible, they may have an idea but they should clearly say that it varies as puppies change. Also at 6 weeks you cannot see if a puppy will or will not be show quality. Show breeders may retain puppies if they look like they can be show quality but until at least 6 months of age they do not know for certain. There are many qualities that a show dog must have that many dog owners wouldn't even notice. For example the position of the tail and teeth which can vary as the dog ages. Before getting my last puppy, I was in contact with a show breeder from another state; she waits until at least 12 weeks to tell the family if the pup has a possibility of being show quality. In my opinion at 6 weeks you can have a "general" idea, but weight, coloring, head shape and even personalities are so different and change so much. I do agree that its important to get a puppy from a good breeder. My last girl has a very rounded apple head and large eyes shes 1 lb and 14 oz at 10 months and I got her at 6 months, I was very happy because I already knew she wouldn't get too much bigger and I wasn't spending all day trying to figure out what she would look like and she was already potty trained which was great.


Obviously the subtle differences that make a quality puppy showable or not will change, which is why breeders run puppies on to see how they develop. 
There is no way a pet quality 'deer headed' puppy could be mistaken for a quality puppy at 6 weeks of age though. 
The photos in this thread prove this, every single puppy has grown up to have the head shape that was apparent in their baby pics, including your pup, who looks exactly as I would have expected her to.
A good breeder will know their lines, know the background of the dogs they use, and will be consistent in the 'look' they produce. They can tell at a few weeks which pups are close to standard and which are not.


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

Wicked Pixie said:


> Obviously the subtle differences that make a quality puppy showable or not will change, which is why breeders run puppies on to see how they develop.
> There is no way a pet quality 'deer headed' puppy could be mistaken for a quality puppy at 6 weeks of age though.
> The photos in this thread prove this, every single puppy has grown up to have the head shape that was apparent in their baby pics, including your pup, who looks exactly as I would have expected her to.
> A good breeder will know their lines, know the background of the dogs they use, and will be consistent in the 'look' they produce. They can tell at a few weeks which pups are close to standard and which are not.


I agree with you Stella. Show breeders will not breed deer heads, their dogs have strong championship bloodlines, bred to standard or as close as possible. Now sure they may have a shorter muzzle with a larger head like leo or a slightly more narrow muzzle like Mimi. Also a deer head pup will always be a deerhead pup, there is no way they will end up with an apple head and vice versa. 

Before I brought Leo home, I asked if any of her pups are deer heads and she told me no, they only breed chis to improve the breed and get them as close to the breed standard. She also mentioned show breeders shouldn't have any deer heads in their lines. 

I wanted to add there is nothing wrong w deer head chis, they're just not the standard for the breed. 

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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

A really good breeder spends a lot of time researching the breed and bloodlines. 
When I was a teenager I worked for a lady who bred GSDs. She could look at any dog and tell me what its breeding was, it was amazing. She had spent years looking into the pedigrees of the different lines.
She could also look at a litter still in the nest and tell which ones had the best heads, when to me they all looked identical! 
This is why really good breeders charge a little more, you are paying for all the years of experience and knowledge that they have.


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## SkyAtBlue (Jul 25, 2010)

Wicked Pixie said:


> A really good breeder spends a lot of time researching the breed and bloodlines.
> When I was a teenager I worked for a lady who bred GSDs. She could look at any dog and tell me what its breeding was, it was amazing. She had spent years looking into the pedigrees of the different lines.
> She could also look at a litter still in the nest and tell which ones had the best heads, when to me they all looked identical!
> This is why really good breeders charge a little more, you are paying for all the years of experience and knowledge that they have.


When I was picking out my third puppy, the breeder knew which one would have a more show like head. She also told me what their personalities would end up like. We ended decided that Sora would be the better match for me personality wise. Sora was also the puppy that she said would have the more extreme apple shape. At four weeks she was able to tell me her conformation and at six weeks shes had a good guess on what her personality would be like. Everything she predicted came true. She new right away though the girls weren't show quality. Sora had a very low tail. Here's some head shots. 
4 weeks








1 year








Her low tail







one of her ears never went up too. 

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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I am agreeing with Stella here, a good breeder that knows their lines will know have a pretty good idea how a puppy will turn out at that age. I know with Great Danes you can stack them at 8 weeks of age and get a pretty good idea of exactly how they will look grown. I know the tiny breeds and Giant breeds are different and you cannot get an exact science with the tiny breeds but you can still tell about the shape of their heads.


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## Chihuahuaobsession (Apr 27, 2013)

Wicked Pixie said:


> Obviously the subtle differences that make a quality puppy showable or not will change, which is why breeders run puppies on to see how they develop.
> There is no way a pet quality 'deer headed' puppy could be mistaken for a quality puppy at 6 weeks of age though.
> The photos in this thread prove this, every single puppy has grown up to have the head shape that was apparent in their baby pics, including your pup, who looks exactly as I would have expected her to.
> A good breeder will know their lines, know the background of the dogs they use, and will be consistent in the 'look' they produce. They can tell at a few weeks which pups are close to standard and which are not.


Just because a puppy has a "deer head" does not make him or her bad quality. Show breeders obviously aim to have round head and follow the breed standard but they do have dogs with longer snouts and different head shaped and yes a puppy could be born with a deer head as they can take back 9 generations it does not make them a bad breeder or the dog to be of any less quality. A dog is a dog. Her concern is that the puppy does not look like the parents and this is a possibility. I'm not saying you dont have an idea but you should not be surprised if its not exactly what you wanted. For example my friend has an adorable apple head shes the cutest dog ever, as a puppy she has a large apple head and round eyes and a tiny little snout. Within a couple months her tongue began sticking out and at 6 months she had a long tongue hanging out permanently. This is something no one expected and makes the dog look funny. I am simply saying that they do change and no one can tell you with certainty how a pup will look as an adult, although you may have an idea and a breeder can compare to past pups, describe the lines etc. Its always a risk, you can have a good idea but if someone is picky I would suggest getting an older pup or an adult.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I wasn't implying that 'deer headed' (really hate that term!) dogs are lesser, only one of my 5 is what could be described as a quality Chihuahua. The other 4 are very much pet quality with various head shapes that are not up to standard. They are pretty poor examples of the Chihuahua as a breed, but it doesn't mean they are less loved or valuable to me. It doesn't matter as they are pets not show or breeding animals.
It might be different in the US, but here in the UK a good breeder breeding quality animals, as opposed to a pet breeder who isn't breeding towards the standard, will never produce a deer headed puppy. 
That whole look, with the narrow head, long snout, longer legs and larger size does not come out of quality lines. They will produce pups with less extreme heads etc, but they will be able to tell at a young age that those pups will be pet quality. 
Obviously we do have the 'deer headed' types over here too, but they come from puppy mills, back yard breeders or pet breeders, not good show lines.
I suppose a lot depends on how you describe a good breeder. Success in the ring does not automatically mean a good breeder.To me a good breeder is one who has done their research and will breed a consistent type of dog. Even when using an outcross, the results are usually as predicted because the lines have been researched thoroughly.
I dislike the apple/deer head distinction. It is only now starting to be used in the UK, as the Chihuahua becomes more popular and more and more are being indiscriminately bred. The quality of a puppy cannot be determined by head shape alone, but a quality puppy will always have an apple domed skull (to a greater or lesser degree) as it is an important breed feature. I don't think of my dogs as deer headed, I just see them as having poor heads in terms of the breed standard. They also have a load of other faults (tail set, ear shape etc etc) when judged by the standard, but are all fit, sound and well put together dogs, who will be healthy happy pets, (possibly more so than their show quality counterparts, but that is another story lol) which is more important to me.


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

Guys thanks so much for your advice it has been great!
The breeder is not willing to let her pup go at 6 weeks, but I have gone and seen her already with her mum and also have seen her dad.

I am not very good at determining if a chi has a deer or apple so I don't really know what her parents would be classified.

I will post some pics of the parents and the pup, maybe some of you might be able to see if the parents are deer headed etc and what an estimate of the baby might be?
Mums the long hair and dads the short hair and I have included side pics of the parents and pup too.

I also wanted to ask, for a 6 week old the pups face looks quite wide which is opposite of the parents. Is that not good?

Chis Photos by blueskyblueblues | Photobucket


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

PW: babychihuahua


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

The album is coming up as password protected.


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

yes i know i posted above the PW is babychihuahua


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

LOL sorry, I didn't twig that PW was password..... I'm old lol.


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

hehehe that is ok!  
Please tell me what you think regarding the parents heads and shapes and also if you can tell how the pup may turn out


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

The parents both have apple heads that aren't extreme, mums is better than the dads IMO. 
The other puppy, in the pic with them both, has a better head than your little guy. He has a broader head and shorter muzzle, larger eyes, closer to the standard. 
I think your puppy will have a moderate head shape, not long and lean enough to be classed as deer headed, but not an extreme apple shape either. He will look more like the dad, the mum has a more defined dome, and larger eyes. Not the best pic of his profile, but he looks to have a defined stop, his muzzle won't be super short, I would guess at least dads length , possible slightly longer, it is hard to tell from those pics. 
So I don't think he will end up looking like a show type of Chi, but should definitely look like a Chi, not a terrier mix. I love his colouring, I hope he keeps his blue mask.


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## zellko (Jul 3, 2013)

I love the photo of the other dogs looking IN the door at the pup. Pup is adorable.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I loved that pic too! I didn't notice the one on the right to begin with, it is a great photo.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

IMO, I like the mom's head better than the dad's and I believe the pup will take after the dad and have a longer muzzle. I think they are all cute and it really doesnt matter which they are if you are not going to be showing/breeding ;-)


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

Thanks so much guys!

Although I like the dad I really love how the mum looks and was hoping she might turn out more like mum  But i guess the dads genes have come through more on her 

I also feel like she has very small eyes compared to mum who has very big eyes and even dad who has big eyes. Do you think her eyes will get bigger or most likely stay the same in relation/proportion to head size etc?

I also don't get why her muzzle is so wide, looking at other puppy pics on here they all seem to have nice narrow little noses and muzzles? It also doesn't seem to make sense as her mum and dad have narrow normal looking muzzles?


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Her muzzle should be wide, a narrow muzzle on a puppy would be snipy in an adult.
Her eyes won't get bigger in proportion to her head, in fact they will probably look smaller as puppies eyes are proportionately bigger (in all breeds not just Chis)


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

oh really? I don't know what to do now! I see so many puppies who are adorable but then I see the parents and think they look really badly bred etc (in terms of chi standards etc). But with this one I am not 100% on her look but I adore her parents. It is so hard


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I think she will be a pretty dog, but if you want a typier look then you should wait until the right puppy comes along.


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## Lola's mommy8 (Feb 2, 2014)

In my opinion (which doesn't count for much) your baby will look very much like the father when he is grown. I would consider both the parents and puppies to have the "apple heads". The most important quality he can have is a great personality. From the looks of him and his parents (because they were so friendly and photogenic for you) I'd say he has a great temperament!


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

I have an even more recent pic of her profile I think this one is a bit clearer (and it has changed heaps since I last saw her). Do you think her nose/snout/muzzle will be much longer than dads going by this pic? Or does the length vary (ie it may have grown quicker than the rest of her face in this pic etc)

IMG_7291.jpg Photo by blueskyblueblues | Photobucket

And thanks lolas mommy they do seem to have nice temperements


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## joshall (Oct 13, 2013)

I think he is adorable as a puppy. You may not like him as much when he has grown up as he would lose that applehead of his, I am pretty sure. I guess you are quite picky on his future look. Though he seems to have a good temperament, I think you should wait. The feeling of having a very nicely bred applehead chihuahua with all the standard looks is different than the feeling of just having a regular chi.


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## Becku (Aug 2, 2012)

really? you think she will lose the apple head shape?


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

She definitely has a well defined stop, her muzzle looks exactly the same as her dads in that pic. I think that is a better representation of how she will end up looking, so if you find that look appealing, I would say go for it, i think she is a lovely puppy.
Has the breeder used either of the parents before? if so you could look at puppy to adult pics of siblings/half siblings to get an idea of how this one will grow up.


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