# Chihuahuas as they were...Wow!



## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

And before anyone says anything....No this isn't a pic of me 

Just been looking at some vintage pics of Chihuahuas and it's amazing to see how some have changed so much...yet others very little!!!

This Chihuahua is much more like Jago than little Rosie  
Though even his legs aren't that long!!!

Lovely dog though and I'd love to know about him (?) and the lady who must have loved him to have her pic taken like this 

Look at those bells on his collar...I wonder if they were to help prevent him being stepped on? Or just so his mum knew where he was and what he was up to 

x


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## rocky scotland (Jun 15, 2008)

Wow what a great pic Barbara, how old is that pic I wonder! LOL, bells on his collar, like a cat.


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## 17428 (Jul 10, 2009)

This is a great photo.
It shows how modern day breeders are trying to
manipulate the breed standard.They arent doing
it on paper per se but at the shows and by
swaying the judges to point them.Short and
cobby is a new breed "standard".
In the olden days the wealthy could afford to have
their photos done.It was quite pricey then,this leads
me to believe this woman of wealth probably had a quality chi.
It may have been a show dog back then.
I took an interest in this photo as its antique.
My folks and I used to be antique dealers.
Thanks for posting this today.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

rocky scotland said:


> Wow what a great pic Barbara, how old is that pic I wonder! LOL, bells on his collar, like a cat.


I've no idea! Not great at historical fashion 

Few years ago 

x


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Look at these little guys 

x


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

1936

Wonder who this little one was


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## *Chloe* (Feb 6, 2006)

i love looking at old pics of chis and reading old chihuahua books they certainly have changed alot over the years


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

Wow how interesting,what big ears the last one had,wonder how much they cost then ?


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

yes ive seen pics of how chihuahuas looked years and years ago i also saw a programme it showed a kc blueprint for chihuahuas and it just show how the so called "breed standerd" is just the show breeders that have changed the chihuahuas to what they want

i would say what's not "so called breed standerd2 or "pet quality chihuahuas" 

were definetly breed standerd to start with


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

Wow, these photos are very interesting. I was also thinking how the breed standard has changed so - very very interesting for sure! I know some people say these deer head, long legged, floppy eared Chi's "aren't pure bred Chihuahuas" (which I'm sure some aren't but...) - if only they read up on THEIR history!


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

I do think good breeders have worked very hard over the years to improve the Chihuahua and personally I think it would be a sad day when the breed relied on people breeding from pet quality animals to preserve the Chihuahua  

I think the dogs pictured are beautiful, but I would not like to see the breed regress to this standard in the future...though undoubtedly many of the pups from poor breeders are beginning to take on the look! I have one myself bless him 

No doubt even dilligent breeders have pups crop up that revert back to their ancesters!

There such diversity in the breed and the people breeding them, that without doubt there will always be Chihuahuas in various shapes and sizes to suit everyone 

x


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

Interesting thread...

Here's a very cute but leggy little guy from the mid 1950's 

http://www.ahkennel.net/TejanoTexasKid.jpg


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

I hope this little one never got lost underneath her
skirt  

x


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Jerry'sMom said:


> Interesting thread...
> 
> Here's a very cute but leggy little guy from the mid 1950's
> 
> http://www.ahkennel.net/TejanoTexasKid.jpg


He is leggy isn't he 

Cute little guy!

x


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Who said Miss Hilton was responsible for "Dolly Dogs" 

Not a good look, but you have to give them 10/10 for improvisation :laughing8:

x


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

i thought breed standered ment keeping the dog looking as it did not changing it ohhh looks like its up to show breeders to decide what a chihuahua should look like maybe they will change their minds again in the future lol


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## Gia (Dec 12, 2008)

She's definitely Victorian era...


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## London (Jul 4, 2009)

Rosiesmum said:


> I do think good breeders have worked very hard over the years to improve the Chihuahua and personally I think it would be a sad day when the breed relied on people breeding from pet quality animals to preserve the Chihuahua
> 
> I think the dogs pictured are beautiful, but I would not like to see the breed regress to this standard in the future...though undoubtedly many of the pups from poor breeders are beginning to take on the look! I have one myself bless him
> 
> ...


While I do agree with you in regards to a lot of breeders trying to preserve the breed, I think that some breeders are taking some Chihuahua features to the extreme to the detriment of the breed (such as a shortened muzzle, very small head etc) just for the sake of a 'perfect Chi'.
At the same time you do have irresponsible, back yard breeders who do not health check and just breed to make money or because their dog is 'pretty'. 

Anywho, I'd rather have a healthy baby than worry about the way they look as im sure would everyone else. 

I LOVE this thread! Very interesting and fun to see how the breed has changed. Thanks for posting


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## claireeee (Aug 24, 2009)

wow Barbara all those pics are amazing! where did you find them?
love old pics x


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

claireeee said:


> wow Barbara all those pics are amazing! where did you find them?
> love old pics x


Have sent you a pm 

x


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Personally I think it's good that we have people striving to achieve a standard within the breed, of course health and temperament is just as important 

If people breed willy nilly from their dogs (and plenty do so or plan to) simply because it is KC registered, they will just be replicating their own pretty but "Chihuahua look a likes" 

Thankfully and ultimately, buyers have the option of obtaining their dogs from breeders who breed Chihuahuas to hopefully conform to Chi standard.

Alternately you can buy from pet owners happy to breed form their "pets" or breeders who just breed to sell puppies on. 

Some people are happy to have a Chihuahua that looks very little like a breed standard Chihuahua. That's great if they are good with that. They'll go to pet breeders etc 

It happened with the Yorkshire Terrier 

Because of their popularity, back yard breeders and "pet owners" couldn't wait to breed and make the most of the situation. The result, the breed got bigger and BIGGER until the public thought there really were Toy and Standard varieties  

x


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

michele said:


> Wow how interesting,what big ears the last one had,wonder how much they cost then ?


It would be interesting to know 

x


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Yeah, I'm quite confused as to why they changed the breed standard. If that's what the Chi looked like years ago, why not breed to that standard? At what point did someone say that they should look different and be a different size? Seems all the Chi's from back then looked the same, now we have such a varied look. I’m guessing in those days most Chi’s came from what we call BYB’s. I do have to say that I think the standard nowadays has caused more health issues. Like someone mentioned, shorter snouts, etc. I also wonder where the whole "teacup" thing came in. Those Chi's look much bigger than 6 lbs. Closer to 8/10 lbs. Why change it to 2 to 6? And another thing that confuses me about that is that how often do you see a Chi under 5/6 lbs. anyway? Now when someone see’s a Chi that looked like they originally looked people question if they are pure bred. I’m a little lost on all of that. I thinking now that the deer heads are still here because it’s coming from their genetics, not necessarily due to poor breeding. Also the size factor. It’s coming from their ancestors. Even long time show breeders get “deer heads” from their champs. It’s all perplexing, really.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

What I've realised is that in the UK different lines (I'm not talking about people simply buying two KC registered dogs and putting them together) have slightly but quite definite looks...yet still manage to conform to breed standard...It's fascinating 

There are one or two lines which I think are beautiful and there are one or two thought successful in the show ring, I simply would not buy from.

There are some pretty and lovable pet dogs around too that "pet owners" breed from. If you want a Chihuahua "look a likie" at hopefully a cheaper price fine..."Horses for courses" as they say 

x


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## claireeee (Aug 24, 2009)

Rosiesmum said:


> Have sent you a pm
> 
> x


Thanks Barbara  I tried replying but it wouldnt let me.
some really brilliant pics on there!! really want to frame some x


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

claireeee said:


> Thanks Barbara  I tried replying but it wouldnt let me.
> some really brilliant pics on there!! really want to frame some x


Amazing aren't they. I have an old dog mag from the 1930's with some Chi pics in it, often thought about framing them 

Sorry my in box was full!!!

x


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## claireeee (Aug 24, 2009)

you definitely should!
I think they would look really pretty and unusual x


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## *Princess* (Feb 7, 2009)

lovely pictures x


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## lrushe (Oct 24, 2009)

Rosiesmum said:


> 1936
> 
> Wonder who this little one was



OMG that's like a black and white pic of my Cleo, even the expression is the same!!!


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

TLI said:


> Yeah, I'm quite confused as to why they changed the breed standard. If that's what the Chi looked like years ago, why not breed to that standard? At what point did someone say that they should look different and be a different size? Seems all the Chi's from back then looked the same, now we have such a varied look. I’m guessing in those days most Chi’s came from what we call BYB’s. I do have to say that I think the standard nowadays has caused more health issues. Like someone mentioned, shorter snouts, etc. I also wonder where the whole "teacup" thing came in. Those Chi's look much bigger than 6 lbs. Closer to 8/10 lbs. Why change it to 2 to 6? And another thing that confuses me about that is that how often do you see a Chi under 5/6 lbs. anyway? Now when someone see’s a Chi that looked like they originally looked people question if they are pure bred. I’m a little lost on all of that. I thinking now that the deer heads are still here because it’s coming from their genetics, not necessarily due to poor breeding. Also the size factor. It’s coming from their ancestors. Even long time show breeders get “deer heads” from their champs. It’s all perplexing, really.


I absolutely agree with you - it's really gives you a lot to think about & ponder....


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## Adrienne (Apr 3, 2009)

I Love these Vintage Photos. I agree with the framing. them i think some of them on the site are really great  thanks for sharing


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## catz4m8z (Aug 28, 2008)

Personally I love both the applehead and the deerhead types. Although those old photo's looked a little bit like rat terriers to me!
Still its nice to see that Chi's havent been altered beyond recognition. Look at photos of bulldogs or pugs from the same era's and you would hardly recognize them.


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

TLI said:


> Yeah, I'm quite confused as to why they changed the breed standard. If that's what the Chi looked like years ago, why not breed to that standard? At what point did someone say that they should look different and be a different size? Seems all the Chi's from back then looked the same, now we have such a varied look. I’m guessing in those days most Chi’s came from what we call BYB’s. I do have to say that I think the standard nowadays has caused more health issues. Like someone mentioned, shorter snouts, etc. I also wonder where the whole "teacup" thing came in. Those Chi's look much bigger than 6 lbs. Closer to 8/10 lbs. Why change it to 2 to 6? And another thing that confuses me about that is that how often do you see a Chi under 5/6 lbs. anyway? Now when someone see’s a Chi that looked like they originally looked people question if they are pure bred. I’m a little lost on all of that. I thinking now that the deer heads are still here because it’s coming from their genetics, not necessarily due to poor breeding. Also the size factor. It’s coming from their ancestors. Even long time show breeders get “deer heads” from their champs. It’s all perplexing, really.


I agree with you as well. I love the way appleheads look, but I wonder why breeders decided this was a good direction for the breed to take, as it seems to introduce more health issues. Seems counterintuitive to bettering the breed, which is what I thought was the point in breeding.


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## KayC (May 3, 2005)

What wonderful photos. Thanks Barbara, for posting....


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## Triton07 (Jul 9, 2009)

Ah the first photo is like a black Triton!! hehe. I always LOVE to see old photos of chis, because it proves to me that Trit is a purebred. So many people say I don't know what I'm talking about and he couldn't POSSIBLY be a purebred. I've had people tell me he's a mini husky, a white shepherd puppy(LOL), and a chi crossed with a pom. Nope nope nope!!

I researched it a while back, and I'm not sure where the link was, but the chihuahua is said to have been an ancestor of the techichi. The Toltec people of Mexico had them as companion dogs, and every family had to own one.. I can't remember the full history on it all, but I'll look again. It's crazy how my Triton looks like the old ancient guys


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## Triton07 (Jul 9, 2009)

Here's a different link I found.. Not the one I was talking about, but has a similar description of it all.


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

Triton07 said:


> Here's a different link I found.. Not the one I was talking about, but has a similar description of it all.


Um........am I just having a senior moment? I don't see a link!


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Look at this little one's ears, bless them 

I have a feeling this Chihuahua might have been a real little imp 

x


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

These two beauties remind me of mini Pharoah Hounds 

x


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## London (Jul 4, 2009)

Rosiesmum said:


> These two beauties remind me of mini Pharoah Hounds
> 
> x


Yes you're right! I LOVE Pharoah hounds, theyre so beautiful and elegant. 

These are such great photos


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## xxxxdeedde (Jul 3, 2008)

Is there any old photos of Long Coat Chihuahuas


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Small But Mighty said:


> Is there any old photos of Long Coat Chihuahuas


Well this is meant to be one, it looks a bit Spitz like!!!


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## princesslisa31 (Mar 31, 2009)

aaaah I love these pics,thanks rosies mum! none of them have sticky uppy ears do they? maybe my bambi is as they are meant to be lol.
these pictures are early 1900 so chihuahuas were not even in england at that time,how wierd!


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## Lin (Jun 7, 2006)

Some historians believe, based on Egyptian hieroglyphics, our current day chihuahuas are indeed descendants of the Egyptians hounds or that they actually had chihuahuas. Just an interesting thought. 

I wonder too why they changed the breed standard from the original to this make over. Perhaps the reason we so many is because they are the true chihuahuas. :coolwink:

That little black one with the broken ear looks like my Ernie and I don't think theres a cuter dog anywhere. :hello1:


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## Gia (Dec 12, 2008)

Lin said:


> Some historians believe, based on Egyptian hieroglyphics, our current day chihuahuas are indeed descendants of the Egyptians hounds or that they actually had chihuahuas. Just an interesting thought. :


I read that too and being a Belly Dancer, I want to believe it!!! :hello1:
But I think it is probably descended from the Ibizan hound...


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

I wonder how many people would really like to see Chihuahuas revert back to the "standard" we have seen here. Perhaps those with dogs that don't conform? Especially when they are breeding from them? *I generalise *and this may be true with many/all breeds 

I'd LOVE to see these lovely little dogs bred with health foremost, but, I'll be honest, I wouldn't like them to revert to the large "Deer type"...lovely and authentic as they _may_ be.

As always we'll all have our own thoughts here 

x


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

I personally like the "look" of the Chi standard now. Mine conform more to the standard now, even though they aren't "perfect standard." I don't breed either, don't even have a desire too. None of my females are even big enough, and if they were, I still wouldn't. I believe breeding should be left to professionals. Of course I think my Chi babies are cute, but I think breeding should be for the betterment of the breed. With all that said, it just puzzles me how the Chi has changed so much. And why people consider the Chi's that look like the "original" Chi to not be pure bred. I was even guilty of wondering that myself when I'd see the "deer types." I guess to me they take on the look more of a Terrier. But that was before I saw these pics. Now I can only assume that the "deer heads" are actually coming out because of genes, not necessarily faulty breeding. Also the size factor. The reason you don’t see many Chi’s under 5/6 lbs. full grown is because they really aren’t “meant” to be that size. It is just a fluke when it happens, really. I also wonder why anyone would change the breed standard when those changes cause more health issues. And I believe that the “standard” is what fuels some of this.

Just from looking around the net, and in person, I see more Chi’s that either have the “deer look,” or in the middle of the deer and apple head. And like I mentioned, they are mostly 5 lbs. and up mature. Even 7/8 lb. Chi’s are very common. The “standard” isn’t the “norm,” it seems. That can only lead me to believe that even as much as they have tried to “change” the breed, that genetics will always come through at some point. 

Anyway, this is certainly not to challenge anyone. I am just curious what other people think about this. It’s interesting to me. And I also want to mention that I don’t condone random breedings. I don’t judge those who do, but I think there are plenty Chi’s that need homes so it only contributes to homeless pets.


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

TLI said:


> I personally like the "look" of the Chi standard now. Mine conform more to the standard now, even though they aren't "perfect standard." I don't breed either, don't even have a desire too. None of my females are even big enough, and if they were, I still wouldn't. I believe breeding should be left to professionals. Of course I think my Chi babies are cute, but I think breeding should be for the betterment of the breed. With all that said, it just puzzles me how the Chi has changed so much. And why people consider the Chi's that look like the "original" Chi to not be pure bred. I was even guilty of wondering that myself when I'd see the "deer types." I guess to me they take on the look more of a Terrier. But that was before I saw these pics. Now I can only assume that the "deer heads" are actually coming out because of genes, not necessarily faulty breeding. Also the size factor. The reason you don’t see many Chi’s under 5/6 lbs. full grown is because they really aren’t “meant” to be that size. It is just a fluke when it happens, really. I also wonder why anyone would change the breed standard when those changes cause more health issues. And I believe that the “standard” is what fuels some of this.
> 
> Just from looking around the net, and in person, I see more Chi’s that either have the “deer look,” or in the middle of the deer and apple head. And like I mentioned, they are mostly 5 lbs. and up mature. Even 7/8 lb. Chi’s are very common. The “standard” isn’t the “norm,” it seems. That can only lead me to believe that even as much as they have tried to “change” the breed, that genetics will always come through at some point.
> 
> Anyway, this is certainly not to challenge anyone. I am just curious what other people think about this. It’s interesting to me. And I also want to mention that I don’t condone random breedings. I don’t judge those who do, but I think there are plenty Chi’s that need homes so it only contributes to homeless pets.


what a great post T


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## spugs (Oct 14, 2009)

The bell collars are something that they used to put on pugs in the 18th centuary (theres a little bit about it on the holly and lil collars web site). I love old pics of breeds, theres been some on a site recently of papillons and you can see how they prob used the long haired chi to change the breed.


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## princesslisa31 (Mar 31, 2009)

I had a bell on bambi when she was a puppy,might start doing it again now I know she is more authentic looking chi than I thought lol


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

TLI said:


> The reason you don’t see many Chi’s under 5/6 lbs. full grown is because they really aren’t “meant” to be that size. It is just a fluke when it happens, really.


You see a lot of Chihuahuas under 5lb to 6 lb in the UK, I have one and my late Honey was 5lb 

If you hope to have a pet Chihuahua that is within standard it's important to go to someone who breeds and shows...Doesn't simply breed from their pets/dogs to sell the puppies.

Maybe Chihuahuas are that much bigger in the United States? Or there are even more people breeding from their non standard pets than we have in the UK?

Not sure 

x


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

I wonder who Mrs Fearfield was?


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## claireeee (Aug 24, 2009)

wow what an awesome pic! x


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

I like this one


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## *Chloe* (Feb 6, 2006)

Rosiesmum said:


> I wonder who Mrs Fearfield was?


 
she was the founder of the British Chihuahua Club

http://www.the-british-chihuahua-club.org.uk/AboutUs/BCCHistory.php


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

*Chloe* said:


> she was the founder of the British Chihuahua Club


Really 

I was gooing to do a search, any idea when it was started?

x


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Rosiesmum said:


> You see a lot of Chihuahuas under 5lb to 6 lb in the UK, I have one and my late Honey was 5lb
> 
> If you hope to have a pet Chihuahua that is within standard it's important to go to someone who breeds and shows...Doesn't simply breed from their pets/dogs to sell the puppies.
> 
> ...


I do notice that the members here on the board from the UK seem to have more "standard" Chi's. But even then they seem to all be right about 4.5/5 lbs. mature? Do you see Chi's the size of Jade & Gia over there much? Here in the states you rarely see Chi's that size, anywhere. But yet our standard includes those "weights." Even Lex & Chance's size is not "common" here. I don't think I've seen a Chi Jade's size yet. I'm sure there are a few out there, but very very rare. At her size, or that size, I can't even imagine them being "showable." Her mouth is so teensy that there isn't even enough room for all of her teeth. It looks like a war zone in there. I guess I just don't understand our "standard" over here considering they are so few and far between. You can find the "standard look," but I don't think they are as common here in the states as they are in the UK. Maybe it is because we have so many breeders breeding from pets? I'm not sure. But it is all very interesting. Even show breeders here get the "deer look." They may end up with 1, possibly 2 out of a litter of 4/5 that they can show. And they don't breed their females often, so maybe that's why we see more pet quality Chi's here. I still think some of it is just pure genetics. 

If you get a chance, browse through some of our sites that have pups for sell. Take a look at the parents too. Also browse the show breeders sites. You'll get an idea of what I'm talking about.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

I also wanted to say that the pics you are finding are all gorgeous!


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

I think the very tiny Chi puppies are often kept by better breeders as they are reluctant to sell them on as pets? You do see tinies for sale at silly prices and there are of course always going to be those that will pay...and those that desire a very small Chihuahua for whatever reason...

x


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## *Chloe* (Feb 6, 2006)

Rosiesmum said:


> Really
> 
> I was gooing to do a search, any idea when it was started?
> 
> x


22nd May 1949


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

*Chloe* said:


> 22nd May 1949


Not that long ago...


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## *Chloe* (Feb 6, 2006)

no...there were 20 chis registered with the KC when they decided to form a club took them a while considering they first brought them over and exhibited them at the LKA show in 1897 in a modern dogs section where they got a write up saying "I do not think they will ever be popular in England" - little did that guy know!! :lol:


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## London (Jul 4, 2009)

I just typed out loads about the breed standard issue and then my page navigated away and I lost the lot! :foxes15:
Obviously wasnt meant to be!

Loving the history we're learning too here


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

London said:


> I just typed out loads about the breed standard issue and then my page navigated away and I lost the lot! :foxes15:
> Obviously wasnt meant to be!
> 
> Loving the history we're learning too here


I hate it when that happens and yes it's nice chatting about history and discussing how the breed has developed 

I'm enjoying the input on this thread!

x


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Rosiesmum said:


> I think the very tiny Chi puppies are often kept by better breeders as they are reluctant to sell them on as pets? You do see tinies for sale at silly prices and there are of course always going to be those that will pay...and those that desire a very small Chihuahua for whatever reason...
> 
> x


I think that's probably true. It requires a lot of responsibility to care for the tinies. I'm sure the better breeders don't see them as "cash" tickets, and realize they are better in their care. I wish all breeders were that way. 

You see that here too. But what's comical to me, since anything under 4 lbs. is so uncommon here, they'll post these teeny pups that will more than likely mature out 4/4.5 lbs. for 2,500/3,500. Or an adult that weighs 4/4.5 lbs. that they have listed as 2.5 lbs. And people fall for it. There was one not long ago that was similar to Jade's size that was listed at 5,000! I guess she sold because the listing is gone. I don't want to pass judgment, but I would never pay those kind of prices for a pup, even if I could. None of mine cost me more than the average price going here. There are so many Chi's listed at reasonable prices, that I'm not sure why anyone would pay those outrageous prices. To each their own, I suppose?


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

London said:


> I just typed out loads about the breed standard issue and then my page navigated away and I lost the lot! :foxes15:
> Obviously wasnt meant to be!
> 
> Loving the history we're learning too here


Oh I'd love to hear your input if you have the time to re-type. This is all very interesting. 

Great thread, Barb!


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

TLI said:


> I personally like the "look" of the Chi standard now. Mine conform more to the standard now, even though they aren't "perfect standard." I don't breed either, don't even have a desire too. None of my females are even big enough, and if they were, I still wouldn't. I believe breeding should be left to professionals. Of course I think my Chi babies are cute, but I think breeding should be for the betterment of the breed. With all that said, it just puzzles me how the Chi has changed so much. And why people consider the Chi's that look like the "original" Chi to not be pure bred. I was even guilty of wondering that myself when I'd see the "deer types." I guess to me they take on the look more of a Terrier. But that was before I saw these pics. Now I can only assume that the "deer heads" are actually coming out because of genes, not necessarily faulty breeding. Also the size factor. The reason you don’t see many Chi’s under 5/6 lbs. full grown is because they really aren’t “meant” to be that size. It is just a fluke when it happens, really. I also wonder why anyone would change the breed standard when those changes cause more health issues. And I believe that the “standard” is what fuels some of this.
> 
> Just from looking around the net, and in person, I see more Chi’s that either have the “deer look,” or in the middle of the deer and apple head. And like I mentioned, they are mostly 5 lbs. and up mature. Even 7/8 lb. Chi’s are very common. The “standard” isn’t the “norm,” it seems. That can only lead me to believe that even as much as they have tried to “change” the breed, that genetics will always come through at some point.
> 
> Anyway, this is certainly not to challenge anyone. I am just curious what other people think about this. It’s interesting to me. And I also want to mention that I don’t condone random breedings. I don’t judge those who do, but I think there are plenty Chi’s that need homes so it only contributes to homeless pets.


That's so true, it doesn't seem like the standard is the 'norm'. I haven't noticed this so much in other breeds either. My friend shows her collie, and to me, all collies look like a collie. It's similar with other breeds I find too. But chihuahuas, it seems the only ones I see that are close to the standard are breeding/show dogs ... and then of course there are chis sold as pets very close to the standard, but the majority of pet chis seem to be just that ... pet chis. 

In the end genetics will win if they are left to breed on their own. Eventually the original chi may be completely bred out, but it will take a very long time to get all the dominant 'unwanted' genes out of the pool. The reason there is so many 'deer' types, and the traits just seem to come out, is because they are dominant. They are dominant because that is what the 'best' chihuahua genes evolved in terms of health, survivability, etc. in the breed ... as with all creatures in the world, that's the way genetics works. When we start to change the way an animal looks because we prefer another look, we are trying to breed out dominant genes and bring out recessive genes. It will take a long, loooong time to breed out dominant genes where you end up with the majority of chis looking like the standard today, simply because of the way dominant genes work. Breeders who have old lines going way back may produce close to the standard look in every dog from every litter, because they have bred out all those genes. Unfortunately, as is the nature of recessive genes, there can be many health problems and defects attached to those genes. In humans, dogs, etc. most congenital defects are the result of recessive genes. So when you put recessive genes together to get a new look, you may also get health problems. 

Personally, I very much enjoy the look of the standard chi today, and also enjoy the look of the original more deer headed chi ... but I also prefer nature to be the way it has come about to be what works the best for the breed. In nature animals will breed to increase their survivability, which decreases health issues. In people for example, downs syndrome, cystic fibrosis, etc. are rare conditions that the majority of people don't have. There is no one health issue that plagues the majority, or even a large portion of people. In pure bred show quality dogs, this is not the case. Every breed has issues, common ones at that. Appleheads would never have evolved in the world because it would decrease the survivability of a puppy due to the molera. And in nature, any gene that causes a decrease in survivability, will eventually disappear. 

So that's my two cents worth on that


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## Emma_H (Jul 1, 2009)

Krista said:


> That's so true, it doesn't seem like the standard is the 'norm'. I haven't noticed this so much in other breeds either. My friend shows her collie, and to me, all collies look like a collie. It's similar with other breeds I find too. But chihuahuas, it seems the only ones I see that are close to the standard are breeding/show dogs ... and then of course there are chis sold as pets very close to the standard, but the majority of pet chis seem to be just that ... pet chis.
> 
> In the end genetics will win if they are left to breed on their own. Eventually the original chi may be completely bred out, but it will take a very long time to get all the dominant 'unwanted' genes out of the pool. The reason there is so many 'deer' types, and the traits just seem to come out, is because they are dominant. They are dominant because that is what the 'best' chihuahua genes evolved in terms of health, survivability, etc. in the breed ... as with all creatures in the world, that's the way genetics works. When we start to change the way an animal looks because we prefer another look, we are trying to breed out dominant genes and bring out recessive genes. It will take a long, loooong time to breed out dominant genes where you end up with the majority of chis looking like the standard today, simply because of the way dominant genes work. Breeders who have old lines going way back may produce close to the standard look in every dog from every litter, because they have bred out all those genes. Unfortunately, as is the nature of recessive genes, there can be many health problems and defects attached to those genes. In humans, dogs, etc. most congenital defects are the result of recessive genes. So when you put recessive genes together to get a new look, you may also get health problems.
> 
> ...


Great post! I'm enjoying this thread 
The pictures and everyone's input is great.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

I agree, excellent post Krista! All very informative.


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## 17428 (Jul 10, 2009)

As an example of what todays breeders are trying to 
achieve,look at this breeders site:
*Link Removed*
They are untraditional looking and very pricey.
I think they are appealing though but not real classic looking.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Dahlia`s MaMa said:


> As an example of what todays breeders are trying to
> achieve,look at this breeders site:
> *Link Removed*
> They are untraditional looking and very pricey.
> I think they are appealing though but not real classic looking.


I saw the link before it was removed. And yes, that is what breeders are striving for, because it conforms to the "standard." She does have some nice standard Chi's. But you also notice she talks about "size." How people "think" 2/3 lb. Chi's are common, and thousands are walking their 15 lb. Chi's down the street. Then she has a page where she shows pics of Chi's that she predicted to be a certain size, and says most of them were under that as adults. But she shows pics of 2/3 lb. Chi's that are the size of my male. :lol: The 2 lb. adult Chi's are twice Jade's size. So it's clear to me that even though she doesn't use the term teacups and so forth, that she uses "size" to make a sell. And call me a skeptic, but I'm not buying some of those "adult weights" that are posted. 

I will say that her Chi's appear to mature out to be within standard, looks and size. More than most, so I give her a B+.


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## 17428 (Jul 10, 2009)

Why would the forum delete a link to a breeders site?
It is not an ad per se.Geeeze.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

I'm not sure, Rhonda. I don't think posting any breeders sites are allowed. Maybe because it is considered advertisement? Not sure.


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## 17428 (Jul 10, 2009)

Look at all the ads on this page!! Makes a lot of sense!!
They allow links to food and clothes sites and others.
Do they think we are morons and cant make the right choice
about buying a chi?? Those dogs were $2000-$3000 
and not something you just impulse buy!


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

And maybe she isn't using size for a selling tactic. Maybe she is just pointing out that she doesn't sell you a pup that is supposed to be within standard, and then they end up 15 lbs. I shouldn't have been so quick to judge. I just find the whole size/weight thing so puzzling. For anyone new to Chi's, trying to get an accurate description of size vs. weight is next to impossible. It just irks me.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Which ad?

Oh, okay. I see what you mean. I'm not sure why they removed it.


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## 17428 (Jul 10, 2009)

I think they mention size to stay within standard by AKC.
Would you want to buy a lap dog that was the size of a 
beagle or hound dog.some of the unregistered dogs are terrible that way.
She is really good at what she does.My question is if they charge
so much they better be testing for knees and hearts.
I dont see mention of that unless I missed it.


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## 17428 (Jul 10, 2009)

This forum is covered with outside ads.
They have a double standard.


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## 17428 (Jul 10, 2009)

To me that breeder has bred them to look like poms.
But since I like poms too I guess I give her a thumbs up.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Dahlia`s MaMa said:


> I think they mention size to stay within standard by AKC.
> Would you want to buy a lap dog that was the size of a
> beagle or hound dog.some of the unregistered dogs are terrible that way.
> She is really good at what she does.My question is if they charge
> ...


Well, honestly, personally, if I buy a Chi, I want it within standard. Doesn't have to be perfect, but you know what I mean? But what I don't understand is why anyone charges 2,000/3,000 for a Chi pup within standard. I believe it's because they know they are so few and far between that they can easily cash in. I think all breeders should do testing before they breed. If not, they shouldn't be breeding. 



Dahlia`s MaMa said:


> To me that breeder has bred them to look like poms.
> But since I like poms too I guess I give her a thumbs up.


:lol: Really? Lemme go look again.  Can you PM me the link. It didn't save in my browser.


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## *Chloe* (Feb 6, 2006)

Dahlia`s MaMa said:


> Look at all the ads on this page!! Makes a lot of sense!!
> They allow links to food and clothes sites and others.
> Do they think we are morons and cant make the right choice
> about buying a chi?? Those dogs were $2000-$3000
> and not something you just impulse buy!


I have explained to you before (in this thread http://www.chihuahua-people.com/showthread.php?t=44388 ) why we dont allow links to puppys for sale or breeders websites, as we have complaints from members in the past about people advertising puppies or whether certain breeders were byb's as we cannot verify the legitamacy of these breeders so we remove the links


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## Triton07 (Jul 9, 2009)

Tink said:


> Um........am I just having a senior moment? I don't see a link!


HAHAHA!! I'm so sorry!

I haven't been on in ages and of course I don't remember where I found the link, again! I'm just destined NOT to show you guys the link I guess..

I'll search yet again, but you may be better off searching techichi yourselves, seeing as my reliability is awful hehe.. 

I'm just catching up on this post and I now feel like an idiot for doing that...


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## Triton07 (Jul 9, 2009)

Whew just finished reading from page 5!! You all have excellent points  I love reading them all. 

I will be perfectly honest (and many of you may hate me for it) but I really didn't like the look of apple heads for my whole life up until I got Triton. He was such a unique and gorgeous chihuahua to me (though I was skeptical if he was purebred or not) that I just had to have him.

Of course AFTER I purchased him (not before (dumb dumb!!)) I started researching the breed a lot more in depth and discovered the conflict causing "deer head". It made me happy to know Triton is a pure bred and I now have an arguement supporting that.

Anyways, after owning Triton for no more than 2 months, I really started to LOVE the apple heads too, although I'm still not a fan of the ones with really popping out eyes.. 

I told myself I'd never get another little dog, but I've been researching breeders of chihuahuas (both LH and SH) near me. I guess they've grown on me, and everyone around me!!! A lot of my family is actually stating that the little apple head chi on the cover of a magazine is cute!! Hehe.

Again, I LOVE reading the info that you guys are providing. I'll be on more often, and I'll try to pay more attention to what I'm posting lol.


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## princesslisa31 (Mar 31, 2009)

omgoodness I had to do a big catch up then! this thread dissapeared from new posts days ago and has just re appeared....thank goodness!
are there really 15lb chis in the us?! I hope that was a big exageration as that to me is NOT a chi! the size of the lil fellas in the old pics and looking at chis in the uk we have very small. bambi must 3 1/2 4 lb now I am going to wheigh her as I have no propwr idea but she is tiny !
anyone got anymore old photos yet? xx


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## Kay (Oct 14, 2009)

Wow! Some of the really old ones look like Min Pins o.o


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

princesslisa31 said:


> omgoodness I had to do a big catch up then! this thread dissapeared from new posts days ago and has just re appeared....thank goodness!
> are there really 15lb chis in the us?! I hope that was a big exageration as that to me is NOT a chi! the size of the lil fellas in the old pics and looking at chis in the uk we have very small. bambi must 3 1/2 4 lb now I am going to wheigh her as I have no propwr idea but she is tiny !
> anyone got anymore old photos yet? xx


It's hard to say about an exact weight on a Chi, but yes, bigger Chi's are very common here. Not what is expected from a Chi, which is why so many ask size questions. They get a tiny Chi puppy and it grows to be much bigger than what is expected. Many times over the 6 lb. standard. In the older photos posted here in this thread those Chi's appear larger as well. That is how so many breeders get away with tagging an enormous price on a standard size Chi because they know they are few and far between. Chi's that mature out at even 5/6 lbs. are considered "tiny" because they aren't common here.


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## Aquarius (May 8, 2009)

I love those old photos - for my sister in laws 50th last year I was going to order her a few old JR postcards and get them framed - but I ran out of time.

Ebay have some beautiful old photos and greetings cards of chihuahuas - I might get some myself!!


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## amyhedd (Aug 6, 2009)

can i just ask..as people keep mentioning this and im curious.
i just wondered why people keeping refering to 'deer head' chi's as not being standard chi's and how deer head chi's are because of a faulty gene... i dont see whats wrong with a deer head chi.. surely its just like humans.. we all have different face shapes etc so why do breeders see this as being faulty or not 'standard' ?
xx


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## Triton07 (Jul 9, 2009)

amyhedd said:


> can i just ask..as people keep mentioning this and im curious.
> i just wondered why people keeping refering to 'deer head' chi's as not being standard chi's and how deer head chi's are because of a faulty gene... i dont see whats wrong with a deer head chi.. surely its just like humans.. we all have different face shapes etc so why do breeders see this as being faulty or not 'standard' ?
> xx



Hehe I own a deer head chi and I think it would be the greatest thing in the world if kennel clubs recognized it. But, they don't. Standards are standards. Obviously people in the club liked the smaller, apple dome skull chis better, so they bred it continuously. I'm by no means knowledgeable on all the genetics information, but a lot of people on this thread are agreeing that the deer head chis have the dominant gene coming out, and thats why they look like the old chis. 

And yes, I agree humans have different shaped faces, but we all come from different lineage, so it's not like one "breed" of human.. Sounds odd when I type that, but I hope you know what I mean.. 


When I look at these photos, some of the chis look bigger than my Triton, and he is a good 9 lbs, and he ISN'T overweight at all. He's just big! So it really doesn't suprise me that some of these pooches could be close to that weight!


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## Lin (Jun 7, 2006)

Only the really ignorant really differentiate. It only matters if you're showing. Otherwise, ya need to get over it. 

Deer Heads are the REAL true original chihuahuas. amyhedd, the only reason people differentiate is because of snootiness. True pet lovers will not be picky.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

amyhedd said:


> can i just ask..as people keep mentioning this and im curious.
> i just wondered why people keeping refering to 'deer head' chi's as not being standard chi's and how deer head chi's are because of a faulty gene... i dont see whats wrong with a deer head chi.. surely its just like humans.. we all have different face shapes etc so why do breeders see this as being faulty or not 'standard' ?
> xx


There's nothing "wrong" with them and they make lovely pets and companions, as we've seen on this thread some people prefer them 

Breed standards are there is you want to breed (and buy) a Chihuahua that hopefully stays within preferred limits and are representatives of their breed as per KC regulations. If you like the breed standard Chihuahua and I really do...then you will go for this "type" of dog 
It doesn't or shouldn't mean that if as they develop out of standard as they grow you love them any less 
My Jago is an example...he is neither "apple or deer" head" but we adore him :hello1:

Really pleased everyone has enjoyed this thread so much 

x


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Aquarius said:


> I love those old photos - for my sister in laws 50th last year I was going to order her a few old JR postcards and get them framed - but I ran out of time.
> 
> Ebay have some beautiful old photos and greetings cards of chihuahuas - I might get some myself!!


That's a great idea for a really original gift 

x


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