# stella and chewy's ash



## TinyTails

I came across this post I thought I would share it since I know some feed this to their pups - I use it as treats for my pups and my cat was eating it on a daily basis. Their Freeze Dried formulas are crazy high in ash - makes me sad as my cat loves their foods but I do not feel comfortable feeding anything this high in ash 

Holy Ash!

Ash (%)
Stella’s Super Beef, FR
3.56
Stella’s Super Beef, FD
11.0
Chewy’s Chicken, FR
3.32
Chewy’s Chicken, FD
16.5
Duck Duck Goose, FR
3.93
Duck Duck Goose, FD
10.8
Dandy Lamb, FR
3.93
Dandy Lamb, FD
10.4
Surf ‘N Turf, FR
4.01
Surf ‘N Turf, FD
11.9
Simply Venison, FR
2.15
Simply Venison, FD
6.9
Absolutely Rabbit, FR
4.07
Absolutely Rabbit, FD
12.1
Phenomenal Pheasant, FR
5.10
Phenomenal Pheasant, FD
14.8

FD = Freeze Dried
FR = Frozen Raw


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## Wicked Pixie

Top 10 Myths About Pet Food and Nutrition
Have a read of myth #8, it explains about ash levels in cat foods.


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## TinyTails

It worries me because from my understanding the ash levels can show the quality of proteins and amount of bone being used in the food. I have always been told even by vets that it's best to stay below 8% ash. Their FD chicken is at 16%, that is high. Dogs only need 2% in their diet.


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## lulu'smom

I read this and decided to compare the ash content in Primal as compared to Stella & Chewy. I'm currently feeding Primal, but have fed S & C in the past and have no problem with it except it is more expensive than Primal and I'm very pleased with Primal for less $$. I could not find the ash content on Primal, so I looked on S & C--could not find it there either. I called Stella & Chewy to ask them about the ash content. They told me they do not post it, but do provide it if you ask and if I will provide which product I am interested in they will be happy to provide me the ash content. I asked for the freeze dried lamb. The representative told me something interesting then. She told me if I were feeding it dry the ash content was significantly higher (10% something I can't remember), but if I rehydrate with water it reduces the ash content to 3% (actually 3 something I can't remember and didn't write down). This makes a big difference!! She also told me never to use HOT water to rehydrate. Use cold or warm water. 

Some people may feed freeze dried without rehydrating. I do not. Lulu is not a big water drinker, so I take every possible opportunity to get water down her. The representative said it is OK to feed freeze dried without rehydrating if your dog is a water-drinker, but be sure they are getting adequate water.


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## TinyTails

That's good to know  My super picky kitty only eats it dry, she won't touch it once I hydrate it just like she won't touch canned food no matter what I try. My other cat only eats canned which I know is much better for them.


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## Wicked Pixie

Why Is There Ash in Your Dog's Food?
This explains a little about what ash in dog food actually is. I think Tina has a point about rehydrating, once you add the missing water back in it brings the ash % back to what it should be.


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## Onyx

I just want to say as the original poster on that forum, adding water to the meal does NOT change the ash content of the food. This is the whole reason we convert canned foods to dry matter basis.

A canned food that has 3% ash and 80% moisture has 15% ash on a dry matter basis. Yikes. The ash content in kibble is usually pretty much the same when you convert it to DM as there is hardly any moisture. So this 3% ash wet food is comparable to a kibble with 15% ash. Not acceptable in my opinion.

Basically, the dry meal of chicken S&C has 16% ash. Add water and technically 16% of the meal is of course not going to be ash because you added a bunch of water weight. This doesn't change the amount of ash in that patty. This is why we calculate what's in food without the water, water adds nothing but weight not nutrients... You want to know what's in the food not the water.


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## Onyx

Just as a little example, I'll compare a few different types of food. All using dry matter basis to keep it fair.

S&C chicken 16% ash
Farmina Chicken Ancestral Grain dry food 7.5% ash
Petkind That's it wet food 4.76% ash

As I said, all of these are on a dry matter basis to make it fair, even the wet food I chose. The numbers don't lie and clearly show S&C has an extreme amount of ash. This basically shows they are using a ton of bone and not much muscle meat. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from feeding it. I only made the post because I know a lot of people on that forum worry about ash, as do I. Especially for dogs with kidney problems or UTIs. And I used to feed it so it really ticked me off to know I was paying that high of price for a load of ash...


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## Wicked Pixie

It is a tricky one, and one if the reasons I don't feed any 'dog foods' lol. I would want to know exactly what was in the food I am feeding. I do know a lot of raw feeders (mostly with big dogs rather than Chis) who feed a far higher percentage of bone than I would consider acceptable (more than 20% of the diet) and the dogs do fine on it.


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## Onyx

Wicked Pixie said:


> It is a tricky one, and one if the reasons I don't feed any 'dog foods' lol. I would want to know exactly what was in the food I am feeding. I do know a lot of raw feeders (mostly with big dogs rather than Chis) who feed a far higher percentage of bone than I would consider acceptable (more than 20% of the diet) and the dogs do fine on it.


Lol true, except they don't pay the price of gold for a bone heavy meal. That's one thing that annoys me, the fact the price is so high when the "meat" is clearly lots of bone. At that price I expect a lot of muscle meat lol!

Also with raw feeding, the bone isn't burnt to a crisp and highly processed so that may be a factor. I know we have no facts yet, but since more and more people including some vets are saying high ash MAY cause issues with kidneys and UTI, I like to be safe rather than sorry.

We all have to pick what we feel comfortable feeding. I see nothing wrong with feeding the S&C if your dog is doing great on it and the person feeding it is comfortable with it. Just gotta remember kidney and UTI are typically things you don't notice early on


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## Wicked Pixie

There must be a link, (to kidney issues etc) all the minerals that are not needed have to be removed by the body, making the whole excretory system work harder than it should do. Plus over supplementation can do a lot of damage, much worse than not feeding enough of certain minerals. Have S&C confirmed that the cacium to phosphurus ratio is 1:1? I would worry it was too high in calcium.
This is why I love raw feeding, Mother Nature has already balanced the food for me


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## Zorana1125

Hi! Quick question, can high ash levels lead to elevated liver enzymes?
Also, does primal fd have lower levels of ash?

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## debrawade10

Zorana1125 said:


> Hi! Quick question, can high ash levels lead to elevated liver enzymes?
> Also, does primal fd have lower levels of ash?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I immediately thought of that also Z!


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## lulu'smom

Onyx said:


> I just want to say as the original poster on that forum, adding water to the meal does NOT change the ash content of the food. This is the whole reason we convert canned foods to dry matter basis.
> 
> A canned food that has 3% ash and 80% moisture has 15% ash on a dry matter basis. Yikes. The ash content in kibble is usually pretty much the same when you convert it to DM as there is hardly any moisture. So this 3% ash wet food is comparable to a kibble with 15% ash. Not acceptable in my opinion.
> 
> Basically, the dry meal of chicken S&C has 16% ash. Add water and technically 16% of the meal is of course not going to be ash because you added a bunch of water weight. This doesn't change the amount of ash in that patty. This is why we calculate what's in food without the water, water adds nothing but weight not nutrients... You want to know what's in the food not the water.


LOL! I just want to say as the person who posted what the representative at Stella & Chewy told me about the ash difference once it is rehydrated, you may want to call them and share this information with them!  I have fed air dried and freeze dried raw for so long now I have forgotten how to convert food to dry matter, and actually when I did I was looking for protein, fat and carbs in canned food. I truly have never given ash a thought in dog food, so I'm thankful this has been brought to my attention. Actually, to me what you are saying about S & C makes sense if ash content indicates bone (which I also didn't know and this taught me) because a while back when several of us were comparing bone in some of the commercial raws (ZP, Primal, Nature's Variety, & S & C) I called S & C to ask what was the % of bone in their raw because it was not listed on the package as other companies did have it listed. They would not tell me. They said that was proprietary information and could not share. Frankly I thought, seriously, your bone % is proprietary info? What am I going to do with a % in the line of copying your recipe? Also, every time Lulu ate S & C her poo was literally white it was so dry. That worried me because I do want poos that are small and odorless, but they looked like poos with too much bone.

Also, I can understand the bone being highly burnt/cooked at extreme temps in kibble, but I'm not so sure about that in freeze dried raw--not talking specifically about S & C now but any company's freeze dried raw. It is prepared differently than kibble. With all this though, I might just go back to frozen raw.


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## lulu'smom

I do have one question for anyone who can answer, I saw Z and Debby's question about Primal's ash levels, and I had looked on their website when I made my first post and didn't see them listed but didn't call the company. After they asked that question, I went to look on the bags I have. The guaranteed analysis on the Turkey & Sardine shows the protein content to be 61%! The protein content in lamb is 48%, beef is 48%. I know these foods protein content are not that high. When water is added that protein content has to go down, so could it stand to reason that when water is added ash content could go down?


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## Onyx

lulu'smom said:


> I do have one question for anyone who can answer, I saw Z and Debby's question about Primal's ash levels, and I had looked on their website when I made my first post and didn't see them listed but didn't call the company. After they asked that question, I went to look on the bags I have. The guaranteed analysis on the Turkey & Sardine shows the protein content to be 61%! The protein content in lamb is 48%, beef is 48%. I know these foods protein content are not that high. When water is added that protein content has to go down, so could it stand to reason that when water is added ash content could go down?


Again, the contents of the food do not change simply because you dump water on it. If you want to count the water weight than technically the weight of the meal would no longer be 15% ash as now there is more to the meal. Why you would want to calculate the water into the picture is beyond me considering water has no nutrients. This is why we use dry matter basis. Wet food is typically very high in protein and fat too.

I will throw out a random simple equation to make it easy to understand. Let's say you have one pound of the dry food. 15% of it is ash. That means 2.4 ounces of that pound would be ash. Now we pour one pound of water on that food. 2.4 ounces of ash would no longer be 15% of 2 pounds. It doesn't change the fact that you are feeding a butt load of ash though, dry or wet.

Hope that helps!


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## lulu'smom

Onyx said:


> Again, the contents of the food do not change simply because you dump water on it. If you want to count the water weight than technically the weight of the meal would no longer be 15% ash as now there is more to the meal. Why you would want to calculate the water into the picture is beyond me considering water has no nutrients. This is why we use dry matter basis. Wet food is typically very high in protein and fat too.
> 
> I will throw out a random simple equation to make it easy to understand. Let's say you have one pound of the dry food. 15% of it is ash. That means 2.4 ounces of that pound would be ash. Now we pour one pound of water on that food. 2.4 ounces of ash would no longer be 15% of 2 pounds. It doesn't change the fact that you are feeding a butt load of ash though, dry or wet.
> 
> Hope that helps!


You are right that water doesn't change the CONTENT of food, but water can dilute. Hence, pulling the water out of wet food(metaphorically) to come up with a dry matter basis to be able to compare the proteins and fats in canned foods to kibble. Otherwise, canned food protein content is going to say--for example 9% or 10%, not 29% or 32% like kibble. Therefore, the water in canned food didn't change the content, but the % does change when comparing it in its dry matter state and its moist state. I would tend to think you are right that dumping water on kibble is not going to change kibble because its original design is not for water to be added to it. It is designed to be eaten dry. Although freeze dried raw can be eaten dry, it is intended to be rehydrated, thus it's my opinion, like canned food, rehydrating it should change at least the protein and fat % because 61% protein is a whopping amount of protein!!


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## Onyx

To each their own 

I personally don't want ounces of ash in my dog's meal every day simply because I add water to it. Since the amount of ash doesn't change, I don't feel comfortable throwing that ash content in my dog.

As I said in my earlier post, we all have to choose what we feel comfortable feeding.


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## KrystalLeigh

I'm sure you guys already know this already, but I was interested in the fact that it really depends on what's in the food and ash content percentages can't really be relied on. I think it's more important to look at the levels of minerals and bone if the info is available. 


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## lulu'smom

KrystalLeigh said:


> I'm sure you guys already know this already, but I was interested in the fact that it really depends on what's in the food and ash content percentages can't really be relied on. I think it's more important to look at the levels of minerals and bone if the info is available.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I posted earlier that I asked S & C a while back for the % of bone in their food and they wouldn't give me that info. I had a problem with that--I don't understand why that is revealing some big secret to give out that info. It is listed on the ZP bag, and if I remember correctly it is on the Nature's Variety bag as well. I don't feed S & C for the reason I posted earlier, and because I prefer Primal. For me Primal is cheaper that S & C too.


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## KrystalLeigh

lulu'smom said:


> I posted earlier that I asked S & C a while back for the % of bone in their food and they wouldn't give me that info. I had a problem with that--I don't understand why that is revealing some big secret to give out that info. It is listed on the ZP bag, and if I remember correctly it is on the Nature's Variety bag as well. I don't feed S & C for the reason I posted earlier, and because I prefer Primal. For me Primal is cheaper that S & C too.


Oh strange! I've never fed S&C. We tried the raw patties but Odie hates them. I noticed a definite change in her poops when we switched from ziwipeak (3% bone) to Primal (6%). I have to be careful what days I give her raw bones now.


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## lulu'smom

Onyx said:


> Again, the contents of the food do not change simply because you dump water on it. If you want to count the water weight than technically the weight of the meal would no longer be 15% ash as now there is more to the meal. Why you would want to calculate the water into the picture is beyond me considering water has no nutrients. This is why we use dry matter basis. Wet food is typically very high in protein and fat too.
> 
> I will throw out a random simple equation to make it easy to understand. Let's say you have one pound of the dry food. 15% of it is ash. That means 2.4 ounces of that pound would be ash. Now we pour one pound of water on that food. 2.4 ounces of ash would no longer be 15% of 2 pounds. It doesn't change the fact that you are feeding a butt load of ash though, dry or wet.
> 
> Hope that helps!


I get it this morning!! Oh My goodness, I had such a mental moment last night!! Haha! Like you said in your earlier post 16% dry converts to higher than 3% moist because the 10% lamb converts to 3%. It's just conversion--it's not changing amounts! This is why I shouldn't look at these things after 10PM. LOL 

You are right that everyone must decide for himself what food they feel is right to feed, but I do think these conversations about food are very important because we do give each other valuable information that make our pets lives better. Without your caring about this and posting it on your other forum, Tinytails wouldn't have cared enough to inform on this forum, and Z wouldn't have thought about it affecting Mimi's liver numbers and so on. I never even knew what ash was or gave it a thought--Now I do!  

I found this. Others may find it interesting.
Ash in Pet Food | PetCareRx


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## Onyx

lulu'smom said:


> I get it this morning!! Oh My goodness, I had such a mental moment last night!! Haha! Like you said in your earlier post 16% dry converts to higher than 3% moist because the 10% lamb converts to 3%. It's just conversion--it's not changing amounts! This is why I shouldn't look at these things after 10PM. LOL
> 
> You are right that everyone must decide for himself what food they feel is right to feed, but I do think these conversations about food are very important because we do give each other valuable information that make our pets lives better. Without your caring about this and posting it on your other forum, Tinytails wouldn't have cared enough to inform on this forum, and Z wouldn't have thought about it affecting Mimi's liver numbers and so on. I never even knew what ash was or gave it a thought--Now I do!
> 
> I found this. Others may find it interesting.
> Ash in Pet Food | PetCareRx


Haha glad you understand what I was saying. I was wondering if I was saying something wrong for a minute!

I too never knew about ash until I started using forums a lot. It made me realize that some of the expensive "high quality" foods really aren't that high quality.

While I'm very happy to inform other pet owners of things that concern me, I just never want people to feel I'm putting them down for what they're feeding or that they've been feeding a bad food. That's why I always say feed what's in your comfort zone


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## lulu'smom

KrystalLeigh said:


> Oh strange! I've never fed S&C. We tried the raw patties but Odie hates them. I noticed a definite change in her poops when we switched from ziwipeak (3% bone) to Primal (6%). I have to be careful what days I give her raw bones now.


I noticed a change in Lulu's poos when I changed from ZP to Primal also, but it was still different than S & C. With ZP they are a bit more and odorous than with Primal. Sometimes with Primal she may not even poo for a day at all! Now don't get me wrong it still doesn't compare to poos when she ate Science Diet years ago! Yuck! As I said earlier, her poos on S & C were tiny and whitish--weird to me. I just thought that couldn't be good.


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## KrystalLeigh

Yes, before this forum and becoming interested in food, I probably thought there was actual ash in pet foods!  Haha. Ash totals can also be used to analyze human food too, like raw meats (some would be fairly high in ash on a dry basis). A lot of the commercial pet foods that are low in ash are the ones we typically would try to avoid feeding--Iams, Science Diet, Royal Canin. It would be much easier on us if they would give us the break downs! 

I noticed something in that link that is no longer true. I think the majority of vets no longer believe ash content has anything to do with bladder crystals. In that case, it's more about staying hydrated which is why canned foods (which just happen to have a lower ash content) are better for patients like my cat. 


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## lulu'smom

KrystalLeigh said:


> I noticed something in that link that is no longer true. I think the majority of vets no longer believe ash content has anything to do with bladder crystals. In that case, it's more about staying hydrated which is why canned foods (which just happen to have a lower ash content) are better for patients like my cat.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you, Krystal, for this info!! I just found that link when I googled ash in pet food. I was only using it to explain what ash was as before this thread I had no idea.


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## TinyTails

There's lot of good companies with low ash too  Here's a list they started on another forum I am part of:

List of Ash and Protein Levels in Dog Foods

For kitties with urinary issues it's all about low PH and keeping them super hydrated. My mom's male cat used to have issues and now eats low PH canned only with extra water added in and he's doing good so far. Good website for information is Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health


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## KrystalLeigh

TinyTails said:


> There's lot of good companies with low ash too  Here's a list they started on another forum I am part of:
> 
> List of Ash and Protein Levels in Dog Foods
> 
> For kitties with urinary issues it's all about low PH and keeping them super hydrated. My mom's male cat used to have issues and now eats low PH canned only with extra water added in and he's doing good so far. Good website for information is Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health


Yes, that's what we do with our cat.


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## lulu'smom

Whew! I got my head on now! Marie, you are going to love this! I called Primal a little bit ago to ask about the ash levels in their food. Firstly, he explained to me about ash which I appreciated and it was exactly what I have just learned in this discussion. Next I asked for the levels in the freeze dried beef--2.45%, lamb--1.80%, & turkey & sardine--2.05%. I then said OK, now that is freeze dried? What about frozen raw? He said it was the same! Haha! It is the same product, one just goes in one direction to be processed as frozen product and one as freeze dried, but whether you look at it with the water taken out of it or not doesn't change the ash content--now this is my wording of what he said, and I'm sure I'm not wording it correctly, but I hope I'm conveying the idea.


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## Onyx

Yep, that guy seems to know what he's talking about much more than the S&C rep! The S&C people were just hoping everyone would fall for the whole "water lowers the percentage" and not question further.

And I like those ash levels in the Primal! Much better :nhappy3:


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## lulu'smom

Onyx said:


> Yep, that guy seems to know what he's talking about much more than the S&C rep! The S&C people were just hoping everyone would fall for the whole "water lowers the percentage" and not question further.
> 
> And I like those ash levels in the Primal! Much better :nhappy3:


After speaking personally with both companies, I really can't see it any other way but as you say. 

Another plus for Primal--so far so good Thank goodness!!


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