# Raw Food Diet



## LandOliver (Mar 25, 2007)

I spent a better part of the WHOLE weekend researching "Raw Food" diets. My vet feeds his dogs this way and the reason he doesn't promote it unless asked is because of the HUGE kickbacks they get from premium/special needs kibble providers. (I have a problem with that but thats not why Im posting) Does anyone in this group feed a raw diet? I know my Blue Heeler would transition well to this type of feeding but Im worried about my little Oliver. The vet says just to feed smaller "meaty bones" starting with chicken. Adding organ meats later and the occasional veggie or fruit if desired but is not required. I really, really want to hear from other owners who have tried this or feed this way now. Thanks so much in advance...I have learned so so much here. Looking forward to any responses...LandO


----------



## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

i fed and will be feeding my great dane in the future Raw.
the chihuahuas im planning on switching over as soon as i have some money in to switch, not because there arnt comparable kibbles out there but simply because i think in gerneal it would be better for them to eat whats closest to their natural diet.
just like i myself am going to be attempting.

this is how i was told to start:
Bigger dogs: 
start with chicken backs or chicken quarters for the first 1-2 weeks, chicken backs are usually best to start the first week as the bones are smaller and easier to crunch, many dogs who arnt used to raw dont chew a chicken leg bone, so its best to start with backs to introduce that crunch slowly. then second week introduce the leg quarters introducing that larger bone.

by week 3 add another protein source, turkey necks are great do 1 day turkey to 2 days chicken see how that goes

by week 4 agg a ground meat of some type, ground beef is perfect (with this meal you can add an egg raw, shell and all) again add it 1 day for every 1 turkey and 2 chicken days

by week 5 add a fish meal, canned salmon, sardines, mackerel, tuna, salmon and tuna are my choice because their easiest for me to get. you can also feed whole fish but they can get pricey, or fish fillets. frozen is fine.

by week 6 your daily plan should be looking something like 
monday: chicken backs
tuesday: chicken quarters
wednesday: ground beef
thursday:Chicken Backs
friday:Chicken Quarters
Saturday: turkey necks
Sunday: fish

(of course the days are completly interchangable as are the order in which to feed set meals, alos once you get a feel for feeding raw youll ditch the "menue" and start just winging it, ie today we feel like chicken lol)
once youve got all your staple meats in you can introduce a very tiny amount of organs, (heart is a muscle meat) kidney and liver are great organ meats but MUST be fed VERY sparingly, literally take a tiny sliver of liver once a week to start, if the stomach handles that ok add a little more, you will never feed an entire meal of organs, they are more to supliment the other meals.

many feel that because dogs wouldnt eat vegitation in the wild unless it was rotting (Ie long fallen apples) or otherwise predigested in their prey sstomach that we dont need to feed fruits or veggies as a staple. (you can use green trip however its VERY smelly) i personally dont feed frut and veggies with a meal (with the exception of sweet potatoe which is great baked on a ground or fish day and helps keep any runny poop to a minimum.) i will however give some fruits and veg as a treat.

the "plan" is the same for small dogs, only instead of backs and leg quarters chicken necks and wings are perfect. (wings are the perfect size for most chihuahuas, and instead of turkey necks that might be a little too big, ground turkey and turkey wings are also fine.

after youve introduced all your main meats and a little organ meat you can also add more meats in there, if you hunt, rabbit, duck, deer, any "game" meat works great for raw fed dogs introduce them like any other meat. go slow keep it simple. i personally have no acess to those meats so ill simply not introduce them...

as for how the dogs like the food.
many it generally takes a few times to ralize what theyve been offered is not only food ut tastey...
mine howevere.

i was preparing some chicken and a peice fell on the floor, our cocker charlie came bounding in and gobbled it up then sat there waiting for more...hmm i thought and offered him a little more (didnt want to upset his tummy) and he loved it. well when charlies geting something the chis arnt far behind and in they came curiious as to what he had. so i cut a bit off for each fo the 3,rosie pratically inhaled it, and sat their waiting for more. dodger was a little more gentleman like and chewed his for a mere second before swallowing and begging for more.

vixie however...she got her peice and didnt quite know what to make of it...she tasted it for a second then spit it out, and dodger tried to steal it, so i picked it up and offered it to her again and she tasted it for a second then spat it out...so i was gonna give up, untill rosie tried to snatch vixieis peice and vixie told her off picked it up and whent to the corner of the kitchen where she proceded to not only eat it but come back for more...
it suprised me that theyd even like it, the textures so different from kibble, but they did.

and it actually ends up costing less than kibble in the long run.

once i get some cash in (and can find a small chest freezer so im not packing my parents freezer with my stuff) ill be buying a pack of chicken wings just to see how they do. if all goes well after 2 weeks ill make the switch to raw perminently. if not they can stay on kibble.

the biggest problem with feeding raw if finding good places to get your meats, biuying from the grocery store can get very expensive.

oh and youll also want to give rec bones (marrow ie knuckle and large leg bones) i find once a week is good it keeps them busy 

if you have nay other questions feel free to ask or pm, if i can answer i will


----------



## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

I haven't researched raw diet at all but I do remember hearing that it can cause serious illness with bacteria of some sort. There was a member here whos dog got very ill from her raw diet but I don't recall what exactly caused it. That's the main reason it makes me hesitant but in theory it sounds a lot better than dry food, especially with all these recalls!


----------



## *Sarah* (Apr 19, 2005)

I'm very skeptical of BARF feeding for small breed dogs for large breeds i.e huskys or gundog breeds its great but I wouldn't feed it to a little one that said I do feed nature diet which is the closest we have to pre packaged BARF feeding or so I have been told


----------



## LandOliver (Mar 25, 2007)

I have founf some pre-packaged raw food for smaller dogs...thinking about trying that. I gave my Heeler 2 chicken leg quarters today and she thought she was in heaven. Not too sure about her breath after that tho...even tho its supposed to clear up the bacteria that causes bad breath. eeeeewwww so far.I fed Ollie the drunstick part of a chicken wing and he really liked it as well.....still very unsure about keeping this diet for him . The website said as long as you dont leave the raw meat lying around(they either eat it when they get it ...or you pick it up for later)and you keep it refrigerated or frozen...that bad bacteria wont be a problem. I'll keep you posted..


----------



## Pauline Leland (Oct 9, 2006)

I've been tempted to feed raw, but two things hold me back - bacteria and possible problems with bones. There are a number of X-rays on the web of dog guts jammed with bone fragments. Wild predators cushion the bones with the fur and skin from their prey, so the bone passes through. Boop is still recovering, mostly back to normal, from a dietary indiscretion last Wednesday or Thursday. She was VERY sick as in TWO vet visits sick. I don't think she's a candidate for bones.


----------



## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

in terms of the risk of bacteria.
the dogs stomach acid PH is EXTREEMLY high compared to humans, e-coli, salmonella and other similar bacteria CANNOT survive in a dogs stomach with the correct digestive enzymes.

when initially switching to raw from a kibble diet it is suggested to supliment with GOOD bacteria (ie yoghurt) and with a digestive enzyme supliment to help their system adjust from kibble to a more natural diet.

one must remember that no matter how far removed ANY breed is from their wild relatives, their digestive system and internal organs are EXACTLY the same. Dogs are naturally oportunistic carnivores, in the wild they eat RAW meat, if meat is unavailable they will pick at rotting fruit and grains but dont need them as part of their main diet.

as for bones, thus far, so long as you feed only RAW bones of the apropriate size for your dog and the dog properly chews the bone it SHOULDNT be a problem. ie you wouldnt feed chicken wings to a german shepard, the bones woudl be too small and likely to not be chewed, just like you wouldnt feed a leg quarter to a tiny chihuahua who wouldnt be able to make it through the bone.

if the only thing holding one back form going raw is the worry of bone, with the little guys its much easier (and cheap enough) to go with a preground raw. essentially a blanaced raw diet already ground up and you just add some to their bowl.
Bone is VERY important in the diet for its calcium content, in pre-ground you still have the bone content without the possible risks.

the only time raw can be a real problem in terms of upset tummy is
1: adding too much organ meat or chanigng meats too soon ect. go slow and keep it simple.
as i said in those first few weeks add a digestive enzyme to help the stomach acid recover from the kibble diet
2: adding raw to kibble (unless the kibble has been desighned for such use)
if your feeding raw NEVER mix the raw meal with a kibble meal unless its a premade desighned for such use, kibble digests MUCH slower than raw and can cause stomach upsets and occasionally some real problems.

Personally i prefer to thaw out 2-3 days worth of meals in the refridgerator and leave it in the fridge untill its feeding time, with raw anything thats not eaten within 20 minutes gets picked back up and either thrown out or put back in the fridge.

LandOliver: the breath should clear up pretty quickly the bones will actually help clean the teeth, the problem is in the first week or so the bones dislodge the plaque build up and bacteria thats been escaping the kibble so its normal to have stinky breath for a little while at first.
try giving a good sized marrow bone (recreational bone) to help realy clean those teeth. and you should find that the bad breath goes away pretty quickly.

as i said the preground is fine for small breeds, its just a little too expensive for larger dogs.
ill probably be doing preground and the occasional chicken wing for the chis when i switch them, and the dane will get whole bones. all will get rec bones at least once a week for teeth.

some things to remember with raw, the first couple of weeks many dogs detox, watch for "acne" and shedding, this is NORMAL dont let it discourage you.
if the poop is white and chalky theres too much bone, add more meat...
poop still a little squishy? too much meat, add more bone (chicken leg quarters and turkey necks have the PERFECT bone to meat ratio)
liquid poop? too much organ meat, cut back drastically and add some baked sweet potatoe to bind.

some awsome things about feeding raw, poop patrole will be none existent after the dogs used to it, 1 poop a day is normal in smlal breeds and will turn to dust and vanish after 1-2 days in the sun and doesnt have that doggy poop smell
doggy odor essentially vanishes.
the coat GLEAMS, ive never met a coat so shiny as that of a raw fed dog. i mean my guys are nice now but i cant wait to see them realy shine once they switch.
teeth cleaning is none existent...as is bad breath.

it has alot of perks, and as i said bacteria should NOT be a problem due to the dogs high stomach acid ph which essentially kills bacteria that would make us humans very sick!


----------



## Pauline Leland (Oct 9, 2006)

This site, http://petdiets.com/default.asp?Menu=Home&PageName=/main.asp is run by veterinary nutritionists and has a lot of info. It's where I picked up my info on bacteria. They also warn about bones.


----------



## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

as i said, problems with bacteria should not exist in a HEALTHY dog whos used to the diet, during the first couple of weeks yes it can be an issue and thats why one should use digestive enzymes to assist.

my vet LOVES the raw diet.
thus far the only ones that ive met that have ever had a problem with it are those who are also pushing sci-die and Pukeanuba...

personally weve never had a problem, and honestly convenience is the ONLY reason the chis arnt on raw yet.

also the notes about the fur being used to essentially cushin the bone isnt workable. if you watch a wolf chomp down on a fresh kill they dont bint off an entire chunk or fur meat and bone, they tend to tear off the skin first, then go for the muscle meat then work on the bone, after seeing a pack of wolves eat a deer i also noticed that many were actually ripping off the outer layer of fur and skin and leaving it, its usually the very submissive wolves in the pack that get the fur...so it wouldnt work in a real life demo.
i know vixie and dodger do similar with their chicken wings, the first couple times i gave them wings, they ripped off the skin and left it in favour of eating the muscle meat. i now just simply remove the skin when they get wings cause its grose finding bits of skin on your floor lol

some problems i have with that site.
remember ive perosnally fed raw, ive also worked as a vet tech and very closely with multiple vets, breders and kennel situations...including a canine nutritionalist and an exotic canine nutritionalist (i did a stint at a wolf sanctuary) and heres some things that bother me from what ive been taught.

"There is no nutritional value in feeding bones" absolutly false, bones are a NEEDED source of calcium which is NEEDEd to balance the phosphrus levels inn high protein sources. if your just feeding meat you MUST add a calcium supliment. phospourous without balance can cause many health issues including kidney and liver issues!

"There is no nutritional advantage to feeding raw foods" actually its been proven that by cooking foods we actually essentially cook the goodness completly out of it! by cocking meats you break down the proteins this is fine for humans whos systems are not developed to handle a raw food diet anylonger (we evolved) and who cant break down many complex proteins, but for a canine, by cooking the meat your actually cooking all thats good in it out!!

"In the “wild,” the dog and cat had very short life spans" yes but this isnt because of WHAT there eating, this is because humans are making their lives difficult, a shortage of food, lack of territory and man made problems like CARS as well as things like heartworm are actually the highest causes of early fatality in wild canids.

"Dogs and cats are just as susceptible to food borne illnesses as people." this just makes me laugh. the stomach acid ph of a humans stomach is COMPLETLY different from that fo a dog, the dogs system has been MADE specifically to digest raw meats, it doesnt matter how far removed from their wolf ansestors they are...theres a reason dogs can eat things off the floor without getting sick while people should not! yes puppies and oolder/sick dogs are more suseptable to bacteria and im NOT saying its not there, but a healthy dog with correct stomach ph would NOT be effected. simply their stomach acid kills it before it has chance to make them sick! dogs also have a MUCH shorter digestive tract so any bacteria surviving the intaial bath doesnt have time to take over in a dog with a healthy correctly workning immune system with the correct bowel health.

"Feeding washed raw vegetables is relatively safe" while its safe raw vegatable have little - no nutritional value, the dogs system is NOT made to break down the complex carbs in raw vegatables and so its like feeding a kid candy...to get the most out of vegies a dog should be fed partially cooked vegies or pre "digested" veggies in either green tripe form or veggies that have been sent through a juicer/grinder.
its like when we eat corn, we dont digest it properly it just comes out the same way it whent in...personally i dont feed any veggie matter unless its as a treat (just like candy)


my BIGGEST problems with the site:
other than their word their is NOTHIGN stating they are registerd or lisensed veterinary nutritionalists. actual nutritionalists have seals of aproval for their pages.

i also find it VERY difficult to look at a page SO one sided and take anythign as truth, if one is trying to "sell" an idea you provide facts based on fact not random things you pluck out of air and try to make fact.
i also find it extreemly hard to look at that site and belive anythign there saying KNOWING that they are trying to do 1 thing, SELL you a session with one of their k9 nutirionalists, a complete nutirtioanl consultation will cost you upwards of $500.
id much rather save my money and my sanity and look through objective sites who dont stand to make a profit off making their readers belive whatever they feel will sell them more consultations.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main 
is a MUCH better source for information reguarding ANY diet, its objective, explains pros and cons of many different ways of feeding and while the author of the site is a nutritionalist trying to get you to use her services, she doesnt sell those services by using scare tactics.

its hard i know, we are a media fed nation and unfortunatly were so engrossed in what we hear and so unsure of our own nature that we rely on others and sometimes cannot see things for what they realy are.


----------



## Marie (Apr 22, 2006)

I applaud you, Foxy! Although I'm not feeding my girls BARF, they're been on a diet of mostly various meat, eggs, cheese and some vegetables since I got them. While I agree with the benefits of feeding BARF, I still can't quite wrap my brain around feeding bones or completely raw meat. It's probably more because I happen to be one of those odd people who likes their meat cooked to death and can't stand the thought of any raw egg yolk sliding down my throat...I also cook my eggs to death as well. 

However, the girls definately like their eggs as raw as I'm comfortable giviing them and any kind of raw meat definately trumps the cooks stuff if you give THEM a choice. I think animals, dogs included, tend to sense what kinds of food is good for them and they definately seem to prefer things in the natural form. I just could never feel comfortable feeding that kibble crap as a dogs primary diet through their entire lives. There's just something inherently wrong with that picture.


----------



## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

im the same way, it took me a long time to get around the raw egg part especially, i hate raw egg its all slimey and grose i hate even baking with eggs lol. so on ground beef days when eggs mixed in i mix the egg into the beef real well lol. not because the dogs wont eat it but because thats still one of those human tendencies that i have difficulty wrapping my mind round.

bones and raw meat was easy (though gross) because weve always given the dogs marrowbones as recreation so that wasnt too much of a jump...but eggs...ick.

and as much as id LIKE to, i cant stand raw green tripe, its stinky and slimey, the dogs LOVE it but i just cant add it in cause i cant stand the stuff lol.

funny how we as humans hve these little idiosincresies lol. i swear dogs must think were crazy!
heck its taken me almost 4 yrs of reasearch into raw and homecoocked to get to this point of comfortableness...i started doing homecooked with kibble, but right now im at a point where im just gonna go preground raw for the chis and let them enjoy their meals 
once my place is finnished im going ot switch them, its just too difficult while im still in the house with the parents.


----------



## Pauline Leland (Oct 9, 2006)

Foxy,

Thanks for the link. Ground bones would avoid the bone fragment problem, I agree. I'm not about to feed Boop an entire carcass, skin and all. At her size it would be a mouse carcass?

The author didn't reassure me about bacterial dangers. She did say that the shorter gut of a dog reduces the danger, but she didn't say it eliminates it. I didn't see a mention of stomach acids. Now for years I was pretty casual about eggs, even loved a raw egg recipe for egg nog but can't stand runny whites in fried eggs, and I don't think I ever got salmonella, but now I'm much more leery of raw eggs, for me and my dog. 

I'm trying to remember where I got the link to the site. I think it was from a good, in-depth newspaper article on the recent pet food problems and pet feeding in general. As I recall, the site was one of two recommended by an authoritative interviewee. The site author gets sarcastic, but appeared to have done his homework, and was not just trying to sell his consulting services. The second site had little free information but lots of pitches for their consulting services. The author you linked to appears to want to inform pet owners, more politely, and not just sell her consulting services. I know from other sources there is disagreement, often very heated, about raw diets, another reason I'm not sold on them. I can't believe that kibbles are an end-all diet for pets, though, so Boop gets a lot of my people food.

Good for you for wanting to take that extra effort for your pups' nutrition.

Pauline


----------



## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

if your worried about kibble there is aloso the route of a home cooked diet, alot of people have great luck with it and of course that eliminates all risk of any kind of bacterias.
cooked is not AS good as fresh raw but can be just as balanced and of course theres always preground for those wanting to go raw wihtout wanting the "risk" of bones.

sounds like Boop is in good hands. i always just get a little miffy when i see those who are SUPPOSED to be professionals use scare tacticts to "prove" their point, especially in this day and age when we rely on those professionals so strongly


----------



## Pauline Leland (Oct 9, 2006)

Well, it's been nearly a year, but I started Boop on a raw diet last night. She had a chicken 'drumette' piece of wing and a chicken heart. It took her forever to eat it, I finally had to help her by holding the bone while she pulled off pieces of meat and then chopped up what was left of the wing and the heart. This morning I took off the skin that holds the flight feathers, pure leather, and it went down much faster. She's learning, too.

I worried that she wouldn't like the flavor, she's so picky, but she loved raw chicken. 

I'm still a bit worried about the bone.

I ordered a couple of books from www.dogwise.com - _Raw Dog Food_ by MacDonald and _Work Wonders_ by Lonsdale - that gave a practical, it's easy, way to start. Come to think of it, their advice was a lot like Foxy's.


----------



## Prosephone (Oct 2, 2005)

My crew is free fed Canidae and has a RAW dinner.


----------



## Prosephone (Oct 2, 2005)

Pauline Leland said:


> I've been tempted to feed raw, but two things hold me back - bacteria and possible problems with bones. There are a number of X-rays on the web of dog guts jammed with bone fragments. Wild predators cushion the bones with the fur and skin from their prey, so the bone passes through. Boop is still recovering, mostly back to normal, from a dietary indiscretion last Wednesday or Thursday. She was VERY sick as in TWO vet visits sick. I don't think she's a candidate for bones.


I got a meat grinder from Northern Tools for under $100, and it is awesome!


----------



## Pauline Leland (Oct 9, 2006)

RAW? Is that an acronym or for emphasis?

The most recent books I read were pushing raw, meaty bones or RMB, so that's what I've been trying.

Oops, your second post arrived while I was still writing out mine. Do you grind all bones?


----------



## Prosephone (Oct 2, 2005)

Pauline Leland said:


> RAW? Is that an acronym or for emphasis?
> 
> The most recent books I read were pushing raw, meaty bones or RMB, so that's what I've been trying.
> 
> Oops, your second post arrived while I was still writing out mine. Do you grind all bones?



Sorry, I didn't mean to scream RAW...

I am used to typing RMB in all caps and when I use the term raw, my fingers think I am typing RMB.


----------



## Prosephone (Oct 2, 2005)

For my chis I do grind all bones. But keep in mind they do have crunchy kibble during the day for their teeth.


----------



## jmp24 (Nov 25, 2007)

I know of someone on another chi board who does the raw diet and swears by it for the health and vitality of her chi's. Definitely do your research though, you want to make sure you are doing it right.

The mess is one thing that stops me, but this lady says that they all have been trained to eat on their own matts on the kitchen floor, and afterwards, all she has to do is pick up the matts.


----------



## Jangles021204 (Sep 20, 2006)

www.rawdogranch.com is a great resource for anyone interested.  As soon as I move out of my parents house I am planning to start both my dogs and cats on raw diets. I just don't have the freezer space right now.


----------

