# Vaccinations and titering...



## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I am a member of a Holistic group and found some new info on vaccines and titers that I wanted everyone's opinions on?

I mentioned that I titer every 3 yrs and this is what he had to say...

We had a webinar posted on here awhile back by Dr. Dee Blanco, Holistic DVM who explained why titers do not work. She said that the best way to protect your pets against vaccinosis (damage from vaccines) is not to vaccinate them at all. Dr. Richard Pitcaim on Dr. Mercola says vaccinosis is the disturbance of the vital force by vaccination that results in the emotional and physical change.

According to Dr. Kim Bloomer DVM & Dr. Jeannie Thomason DVM, Vaccinosis is a set of symptoms that occurs after the administration of a vaccine. These symptoms are more commonly referred to as adverse reactions or events occurring within minutes. However, in many cases symptoms are not noted for months or even until years later PARTICULARLY IN ANIMALS THAT HAVE BEEN REPEATEDLY VACCINATED YEAR AFTER YEAR.

"The symptoms of Vaccinosis vary widely from minor to critical, from temporary or isolated events to chronic anxiety and behavioral problems. Mild reactions include fever, tenderness or swelling around the inoculation site, "flu-like" symptoms, loss of appetite, lethargy, depression, limping, vomiting, diarrhea, and anxiety. More severe reactions may include seizures, anaphylactic shock and even death. Chronic problems may be difficult to trace back to vaccinations, only because the symptoms or the health problems can begin weeks, months and even years later. However, when we understand what happens in the body when a vaccine is administered, we can begin to connect the dots."

And someone else chimed in with this....
"Frequently administer Colloidal Silver. This step will kill all pathogens in your dog’s system including bacteria, MRSA bacteria (Super Bugs) viruses and fungi (mold). These pathogens can develop no immunity to colloidal silver nor can they develop any resistant strains. But best of all, Colloidal Silver will not kill the natural intestinal flora like traditional antibiotics do so your dog’s immune system will not be damaged and subsequently be prone to becoming a part of the “revolving door” medicine that is caused by the over use of traditional antibiotics. If a dog has any kind of cancer, Colloidal Silver should be provided as the dog's only source of drinking water. One would be wise to purchase a silver generator if this should be the case.

4. Periodically Administer Pet-Immune Plus. This step will provide your pet with a powerful immune system booster that was developed by the Russians to counteract ANTHRAX and which was subsequently improved by American scientists to be many times as powerful as the original Russian formula. Pet-Immune Plus (also Del-Immune V) is one of the most powerful immune system boosters on the planet. It should immediately be administered at the first sign of any illness that you believe your pet may have. Pet-Immune Plus (the "Plus" is a probiotic) can be safely used in conjunction with any other medications including prescription drugs. Pet-Immune Plus is completely non-toxic and it can create no resistant strains of bacteria nor can it damage the intestinal flora that is so critical to your pet's health. Therefore, if you think your pet may be in some kind of trouble (vomiting, diarrhea, slimy stool etc.) and it is actually a false alarm there is no harm done by administering this product. If your dog has cancer, Pet-Immune Plus can be administered daily in conjunction with colloidal silver water as the dog's only source of drinking water to help kill the cancer cells and shrink any tumors. .......this is step 3 and 4 of the 10 step program."


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

OK. My opinion. I don't necessarily disagree with what they say about vaccines and vaccinosis, but I don't see how those explanations make titering not work, and they don't seem to explain that.

As for the Colloidal Silver, I'm certainly not saying this is not true BUT just because someone states something as fact, I study it with every piece of educated/unbiased information I can get my hands on before I decide to accept it as truth.

As for the Pet-Immune Plus, the same deep study would have to go into it because it seems like someone trying to sell their product, but I could be wrong.


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## woodard2009 (Aug 4, 2010)

The way so many animals are having adverse affects from vaccination, I'm leaning toward anti-vaccination myself, but I don't have to worry about that for the time being, but good read.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

lulu'smom said:


> OK. My opinion. I don't necessarily disagree with what they say about vaccines and vaccinosis, but I don't see how those explanations make titering not work, and they don't seem to explain that.
> 
> As for the Colloidal Silver, I'm certainly not saying this is not true BUT just because someone states something as fact, I study it with every piece of educated/unbiased information I can get my hands on before I decide to accept it as truth.
> 
> As for the Pet-Immune Plus, the same deep study would have to go into it because it seems like someone trying to sell their product, but I could be wrong.


That was my thoughts as well. I know that Parvo is crazy here and I would have to really research and know a lot of people that have been using without issue for me to give this to my kids and rely solely on it. I worry enough about them. I am hoping we have some members here that may have been using these methods that will chime in? 

I am also considering using the Diatomaceous Earth (food grade) on myself and the fur kids.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

This was another's comment which I think is crazy??

Dr. Dee Blanco Holistic DVM says to take your puppy out where you know there is a Parvo epidemic going on (God only knows where you would find one) and let them play there for 5 minutes. Then in a week or so go back and leave them out for 10 minutes etc. This builds immunity the way it was meant to be and then they are immunized FOR LIFE as opposed to vaccinations which are only temporary in nature and you trade possible PERMANENT physical and mental damage in exchange for this temporary and limited "protection"


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

I have seen raw fed, holistically raised puppies get parvo and die. Happened to a local breeder I know, and after that I am not believing all this hardcore anti-vaccine stuff. I mean I am the first one to use holistic methods, I go to a holistic vet and feed raw- but I think this anti-vaccine stuff is just getting out of control. I agree- vaccines are over used, and I (on the advise of my holistic vet) am not even going to titer for at least 6 years. Lots of studies have showed that the parvo/distemper vaccine lasts for at least 6 or 7 years, maybe life. So my plan is to titer at 6 or 7 years, or maybe not even that. In a perfect world I would give a parvo at 8 weeks, a parvo/distemper at 16, then not vaccinate again for probably life. Plus rabies, as late as the law would let me and not with the others. They are not saying that titers don't work, they are totally anti vaccine and saying not to do it at all, so yes to them titers don't work because they never vaccinated.

The problem in my opinion is that vets just push so many vaccines that are totally useless, year after year, so people don't trust them anymore. When in fact vaccines do save lives and I think are great if administered in a limited and thoughtful way. A lot depends on your lifestyle and the ares you live in too. We have parvo very bad around here, and since I do therapy work and travel a lot to areas with little critter that might bite I have to keep up the rabies. If I lived in a rural area and my dogs left my property I might not be vaccinating, I don't know. It is all about risk/reward.


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

Yoshismom said:


> This was another's comment which I think is crazy??
> 
> Dr. Dee Blanco Holistic DVM says to take your puppy out where you know there is a Parvo epidemic going on (God only knows where you would find one) and let them play there for 5 minutes. Then in a week or so go back and leave them out for 10 minutes etc. This builds immunity the way it was meant to be and then they are immunized FOR LIFE as opposed to vaccinations which are only temporary in nature and you trade possible PERMANENT physical and mental damage in exchange for this temporary and limited "protection"


I have seen this line of reasoning concerning building your dog's immunity as well, Michelle. I really love the Whole Dog Journal, which I subscribe to. I couldn't find the issue to quote exactly, but they believe all good things while using good judgement..such as vaccinate but not over-vaccinate.

The more I study I believe in Dr. Ronald Shultz's research, and will vaccinate accordingly just like Annie--once around 8-10 weeks for distemper and once around 10-12 weeks for parvo. I will titer shortly after that because they may not be protected. If they are, I believe they are protected for at least 6-7 years, and I won't vaccinate again. I may still titer again in 3 years just to be sure because all I've done is draw blood, I haven't put an unnecessary vaccine in them. I won't give them 3 vaccination just to "catch a window of time" between having mom's immunities and losing it. THAT, to me, is the most misunderstood way that vets get an automatic extra 2 visits out of people I have ever seen.


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## woodard2009 (Aug 4, 2010)

I never heard of tittering til I joined this forum and wished I knew that long ago. Such a confusing topic. You want your babies to grow up strong & healthy and we put so much trust in the so-called experts thinking they're doing the right thing for our babies sake. Sometimes you just don't know what the right thing is to do. It's very frustrating. It does make me wonder if all the vaccines may have led to Midgie's severe allergies!? Other than that, she is totally healthy. There's a pill, a shot, for everything any more. It's really scary to think about the innocent people that don't know any better & how many chemicals these pups are taking into their system, let alone with poor quality food, etc..


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

I am really conservative when it comes to vaccines, I lost my first chi to vaccine related autoimmune disease but I'm not an anti - vaccine person. I follow Dr Jean Dodds puppy protocol followed by a titer at the first booster (Mimi is due for one now). If titers are low or non - existent, I will re vaccinate using a single valent vaccine only, which are hard to find. I had to call 20 vets before I found a clinic that used them. For example, Lola had 3 sets of puppy shots, then at 1 year we did a parvo/distemper titer which came back showing positive for antibodies. 3 years later at a her checkup, we did titers again and this time parvo was still good however her distemper was very low so I did give her a distemper booster only. I won't get into rabies bc I think that's the one that killed Gino but let's just say we are not up to date on that one. I will add that we go to the vet for annual checkups for a physical, basic metabolic panel, complete blood cell count, heart worm test, and titers if they're due. 

I would be scared to not vaccinate at all at this point. I try to vaccine responsibly based on research and my personal experience with Gino. 

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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

That is a good point about the single vaccines Zorana! Both my current holistic vet and my previous vet had them but I know that is not the case everywhere. I would never give the 5 in one or the 7 in one.


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

Thank you for this, Zorana. I believe vaccines are what killed Lacy also, but I wouldn't completely not vaccinate. Also, in the Whole Dog Journal, the editor's son rescued a dog who had all his puppy shot as normal. At six months old they titered him, and he tested negative for the antibodies for one of the vaccinations. Had they not done the titer they would not have known he had no protection. Titering every 3 years shouldn't be a problem for peace of mind.

I pretty sure we are not getting rabies again either. They just scare me now whether that fear is justified or not.


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

doginthedesert said:


> That is a good point about the single vaccines Zorana! Both my current holistic vet and my previous vet had them but I know that is not the case everywhere. I would never give the 5 in one or the 7 in one.


You're really lucky bc they are harder to find my me! We do have Dr Karen Becker here (about an hour away), she's a very well known holistic vet, but she's so crazy expensive and hard to get into. Gino used to see her for his autoimmune disease and we spent a fortune there. My vet only carries the 5 in 1 and 7 in 1 so I go to a different vet for vaccines only bc I love my vet for everything else! 

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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

lulu'smom said:


> Thank you for this, Zorana. I believe vaccines are what killed Lacy also, but I wouldn't completely not vaccinate. Also, in the Whole Dog Journal, the editor's son rescued a dog who had all his puppy shot as normal. At six months old they titered him, and he tested negative for the antibodies for one of the vaccinations. Had they not done the titer they would not have known he had no protection. Titering every 3 years shouldn't be a problem for peace of mind.
> 
> I pretty sure we are not getting rabies again either. They just scare me now whether that fear is justified or not.


Awwww Tina, I'm so sorry for your loss. I don't think there is 1 right choice or answer that fits all but given my climate and research, I try to make the best decisions I can and I know you do this too. I researched this topic heavily years ago when Gino got sick. 

Titers really do provide peace of mind and they're not terribly expensive by us either which is a bonus. I wish we could titer for rabies! Since they don't hold up in court, my vet let's me bypass them but first she warns me about all the risks with not giving them rabies, which I take full responsibility for. 

I'm so glad we have this forum to share such valuable information, experiences, opinions, new studies, ect!!


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

You hit the nail on the head about 2 things! #1: There is no 1 right answer or one-size-fits-all except knowledge. Understanding what you are doing to your dog with vaccinations and why you are giving before just blindly listening to your vet. Understanding your dog and the situation your dog lives in. #2: We have this forum to share valuable information, experience, opinions, new studies and such and learn from each other. And have fun doing it!


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## BugnBean (May 16, 2014)

Those of us who have shelter dogs and live in urban settings where we use doggie daycare and boarding must vaccinate.

Bug n Bean were given DVP?? @ 6 weeks, then they were neutered n given the same thing again at 9 weeks.

Not sure what to do at this point. Titer, skip the 3rd and wait until last minute to do rabies? 

Anyone live in CA?

Thanks Maria b


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I am also a member of that Holistic Chihuahua group, and I think it is extreme and somewhat ill-informed.
Titers do work, to a point. They can't show whether or not a dog is definitely immune or not, they don't work that way. A negative titer result can also mean the dog has just not been exposed to that disease recently, not necessarily that it isn't immune. It is still better odds to re-vaccinate (ie booster) after a negative titer than to do it routinely every year though.
Vaccinations do not guarantee immunity and are not the only way to achieve immunity. I think this is possible what that group are trying to say.
In healthy dogs with strong immune systems it probably is possible to not vaccinate at all. Who would be brave/stupid enough to deliberately expose a puppy to diseases that could potentially kill it though? Parvo kills puppies. An older dog may well be able to build immunity through exposure, but an adult dog is also likely to survive Parvo.
I am no expert on titers, most vets here don't offer them (or even know about them) but I think the best time to do them is two weeks after the vaccination, as this gives a more accurate reading as to whether the vaccine has taken.
I do know that all the big pharmaceutical companies in the UK now guarantee their vaccines for 3 years. Most UK vets still advocate yearly 'boosters' though. It is very, very difficult to find a vet here that is happy to go along with a minimal vaccination protocol, you have to be quite insistent as an owner.
I didn't want my puppies to have the Leptospirosis part of the vaccination (it is given routinely in the UK) I told my vet I didn't want it, she tried to persuade me as there are a lot of rivers and rats in this area. I asked her how many cases of lepto had she treated recently. 'A few' she answered, looking quite uncomfortable. I then asked if those cases were found in vaccinated dogs. She couldn't answer my question. I will assume they were as the practice advocates yearly boosters. She went on to give the Lepto vaccine to both my pups without my consent and against my express wishes. They even charged me.


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> Who would be brave/stupid enough to deliberately expose a puppy to diseases that could potentially kill it though? Parvo kills puppies.


This is the whole point of the matter for me personally. I get what that particular Holistic group and other very devout people who use Holistic methods are saying. They believe a healthy puppy will build up immunities naturally being exposed to the pathogens and letting nature take it's course, and IF the puppy is healthy, their own immune system should be able to build up the immunities naturally to fight the disease without the need for a vaccine which brings with it the potential for too many secondary complications that harm the puppy. When it comes to Parvo and Distemper, I personally will take a vaccination as the lesser of the two evils in the two scenarios all day long! Not the vaccination protocol of the average vet, but a vaccination protocol plus titer to check for immunity.

Also, while it is extremely uncommon, it is not impossible for an adult dog to get Parvo. With their way of building immunity how would they ever really have peace of mind against deadly disease? Maybe it's that as adults they have the ability to fight it better. IDK.

Anyway, Stella, my previous vet told me when I questioned the Lepto vaccination that the reason that incidence of Lepto are so vary rare in our area now are because of the Lepto vaccine. That if they were to stop giving it we would have a sharp rise in the sickness. That he had been giving vaccinations in his 35 years as a vet and had never had a reaction. This was when I first joined this forum and began questioning vaccinations. I now use another vet that gives single vaccinations, but Lulu doesn't get them anymore at her age anyway.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Parvo doesn't kill adult dogs generally, they usually recover.
The problem with lepto vacs is that they only cover 6 (max, some vacs only cover 4)of the strains for a short time (I have read anywhere from 2 weeks to 3 months as the minimum, it is nowhere near a full year) and there are over 40 strains of Lepto. As a vaccination that is the MOST likely to cause problems, it offers very little protection. Plus leptospirosis is a treatable condition,and not life-threatening. I was happy with my decision to not give that one.


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

Going to share a story with you that just happened:

On Monday morning my breeder lost the father to my two Guinness. He died in his sleep and never woke up. He was only 10. No signs of illness, 6 months ago was perfectly healthy at his yearly etc. My friend was devastated. He talked to the original breeder of Guinness and she has lost 2 males the same way. It was determined that it was due to yearly vaccinations so my friend thinks he lost Guinness the same way. 

Honestly as an old Vet Tech we drew the exact same size dose of rabies, distemper parvo etc for a Chihuahua as we did a Mastiff. They are not dosed by size of the dog it is a one size fits all program that is wrong. I never thought about it until I got my chis as I have always owned large breeds. 

I like the titers good or bad at least we have an idea where their immunity is at. Or something to judge by as this is still a new world to me and I learn more every day!


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

Oh, please don't mistake me for defending the lepto vaccine. I agree with everything you just posted about it. I was saying my previous vet said in order to get me to allow him to give Lulu the vaccine. He certainly didn't share what you did, and I just have such a hard time believing he isn't aware of it. As I said, I use a different vet now.


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## KrystalLeigh (Aug 17, 2011)

Stella, the last time I took Odie to the vet, I had a really long chat with the vet about vaccinations and titering and he said exactly what you have--that titers can't tell you for sure if the dog is immune or not. He was mentioning that a dog who is vaccinated as a puppy and then goes on to live mostly outside for their life will likely never need to be vaccinated again because their immune system is constantly being challenged. The vaccine may have helped them in their puppy stage, but even 7 years after when they might have needed to be re-vaccinated, they had already developed their own immunity anyway. A dog that lives mostly inside and isn't being challenged may need to be re-vaccinated, but you can't tell that if a titer comes back negative. 

My vet said that he regularly speaks with colleagues and immunologists, but personally he feels that there hasn't been enough research done and he's not comfortable "experimenting" with his patients. Fair enough. I know that he would do it if I asked, but I don't want to put him in the position of doing something he's uncomfortable with. I'll just have to find somewhere that will titer test and will go there for that and to our regular vet for everything else.

The pharmaceutical companies here are now guaranteeing their vaccines for 3 years. I am definitely not anti-vaccine (in animals or people) and feel that recommending people to just simply not vaccinate point blank is crazy irresponsible. I'm with Zorana, I think it's best to be conservative, with dogs AND people. 

We've been having issues here with parents not vaccinating their children and we just had an outbreak of measles that crossed into the next province. It started at a religious school that has low immunization rates. Measles isn't the end of the world in comparison to other diseases we immunize against, but is a serious illness. Scary to think about if it had been something more deadly, especially for those who can't be vaccinated or have compromised immune systems. This made me think about herd immunity in dogs, is it the same as it is in people?


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

I'm not sure if herd immunity is at work the same way with dogs as people, because for one there are wild canines that are not vaccinated. We have had cyotes in our campsites before.

Also there are a lot of unvaccinated dogs running around this city, either strays or from irresponsable owners. It is not like people where you go to work amd can pretty much guarantee 99% of adults there got t he mmr vaccine. I'd say at a dog park around here you can bet most non neutered male pits and chis have never been to a vet in their lives. 

Dog "herd immunity" is sort of at work with rabies. We don't vaccinate dogs agains rabies to protect them, we do it to protect people. Before domestic animals were routinely vaccinated against rabies a lot of people (mostly children) got it. The rabies vaccine in dogs and cats (from what I understand cats are a big facror) has saved the lives of a lot of people by creating a buffer between the disease in wild animals and people.

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## KrystalLeigh (Aug 17, 2011)

doginthedesert said:


> I'm not sure if herd immunity is at work the same way with dogs as people, because for one there are wild canines that are not vaccinated. We have had cyotes in our campsites before.
> 
> Also there are a lot of unvaccinated dogs running around this city, either strays or from irresponsable owners. It is not like people where you go to work amd can pretty much guarantee 99% of adults there got t he mmr vaccine. I'd say at a dog park around here you can bet most non neutered male pits and chis have never been to a vet in their lives.
> 
> ...


Ahhhh that makes sense. My cousin requested the set of rabies shots for herself and a doctor at the ER refused because there hadn't been any cases of rabies there for 30 years or something like that. The nurse privately told her after to go somewhere else and make sure she got it. Well, turns out she DID get bit by a rabid animal. Good thing she got the shots! Wasn't a dog though, but I can see why they recommend vaccinating dogs for it. The house she was staying at had 4 dogs and I doubt any of them are vaccinated against it.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

Wicked Pixie said:


> I am also a member of that Holistic Chihuahua group, and I think it is extreme and somewhat ill-informed.
> Titers do work, to a point. They can't show whether or not a dog is definitely immune or not, they don't work that way. A negative titer result can also mean the dog has just not been exposed to that disease recently, not necessarily that it isn't immune. It is still better odds to re-vaccinate (ie booster) after a negative titer than to do it routinely every year though.
> Vaccinations do not guarantee immunity and are not the only way to achieve immunity. I think this is possible what that group are trying to say.
> In healthy dogs with strong immune systems it probably is possible to not vaccinate at all. Who would be brave/stupid enough to deliberately expose a puppy to diseases that could potentially kill it though? Parvo kills puppies. An older dog may well be able to build immunity through exposure, but an adult dog is also likely to survive Parvo.
> ...


Thanks Stella! That was exactly my thoughts, who would want to chance their dog having a low immune system and putting them in harms way (parvo)? I felt the group is a bit extreme as well but I am considering some of the things they promote for my Sheltie and his Papilloma Virus as it is the worst anyone has ever seen and does not go away as most do. I have tried everything so maybe some of their immune support and Silver Water, etc... will help


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Anything that helps to boost the immune system is a good thing IMO.
I have used Colloidal Silver for all types of problems with the guinea pigs, it is handy stuff to have around.


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## woodard2009 (Aug 4, 2010)

doginthedesert said:


> I'm not sure if herd immunity is at work the same way with dogs as people, because for one there are wild canines that are not vaccinated. We have had cyotes in our campsites before.
> 
> Also there are a lot of unvaccinated dogs running around this city, either strays or from irresponsable owners. It is not like people where you go to work amd can pretty much guarantee 99% of adults there got t he mmr vaccine. I'd say at a dog park around here you can bet most non neutered male pits and chis have never been to a vet in their lives.
> 
> ...


Very well said!! I love hearing from all the different point-of-views. They all make sense!!


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I am loving all of the thought and info here.

As for Lepto I will not get that in any of my large or small breeds. My Vet even tells me that the danger of the vaccine causing problems out weighs the rare chance that they would get Lepto. 

With the Rabies shots in people. I have a cousin that had two dogs that had not had their rabies vaccines and they killed a Raccoon, it was mandatory that he and his friend that had been around the dogs get the shots and they had to pay for them out of their own pockets and they are pricey. The dogs were immediately put to sleep. I dont think there are tons of rabies cases here but there are some from time to time so it seems that a lot of counties in NC take it very seriously. Now I know of other counties that will quarantine a dog, or at least euthanize and wait for results to come back. And some just say oh well you are probably fine. Now if I come in contact with a potential rabid animal and there is no way to find that animal and identify if it has rabies or not I will probably request the shots mainly because once the disease is showing signs in humans it is usually to late and that freaks me out :/

My vet told me it was up to me on whether I had Gidget vaccinated for rabies again as we feel she may have had a reaction to the vaccine. He did however tell me a story about a man that had a little Yorkie in our county a few years ago. Used pee pads, never really went out or got around other dogs because the man was a senior citizen and did not get out much himself. Well the man went to put his foot into his shoe and was bitten by a bat that was in his shoe. The law came and got his little Yorkie and euthanized her because she was not properly vaccinated and the bat had been in the house. The man tried to put up a fight but they did it anyways. That is a heartbreaking story and scared me.... I am not sure what I am going to do come time for her to get her rabies again :-(


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## Bianca00 (Nov 20, 2011)

I use Collidal Silver and DE for myself. Bianca gets DE in cycles. 
I've been wondering about vaccines. I'll be bringing a puppy home in two weeks and am worried about vaccinating. Someone already said my thought of the dose. Vets give the same dose to a 2lb Chihuahua puppy as they do a full grown Great Dane. That can't be right! But Distemper, Parvovirus, and Rabies scare me enough not to do the vaccines. I'll have to read more about tittering...


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

Yoshismom said:


> My vet told me it was up to me on whether I had Gidget vaccinated for rabies again as we feel she may have had a reaction to the vaccine. He did however tell me a story about a man that had a little Yorkie in our county a few years ago. Used pee pads, never really went out or got around other dogs because the man was a senior citizen and did not get out much himself. Well the man went to put his foot into his shoe and was bitten by a bat that was in his shoe. The law came and got his little Yorkie and euthanized her because she was not properly vaccinated and the bat had been in the house. The man tried to put up a fight but they did it anyways. That is a heartbreaking story and scared me.... I am not sure what I am going to do come time for her to get her rabies again :-(


Michelle, I didn't do an indepth search, but I did do a bit of a search on colloidal silver. Nothing I saw said anything negative except if it is overused. I don't think you would do that, so I would give it a try if I were you and felt comfortable.

AS far as Gidget and her rabies shot, if you feel comfortable that she would never be in a position herself to contract rabies, and her vet knows she has had a reaction to the shot, why wouldn't he provide you with an exemption? In the example he gave the Yorkie was only guilty of being in the home where a bat happened to be found with the possibility she could have been bitten and no rabies shot, but proof of exemption should be protection on the off chance you would ever be in a similar situation.


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

lulu'smom said:


> Michelle, I didn't do an indepth search, but I did do a bit of a search on colloidal silver. Nothing I saw said anything negative except if it is overused. I don't think you would do that, so I would give it a try if I were you and felt comfortable.
> 
> AS far as Gidget and her rabies shot, if you feel comfortable that she would never be in a position herself to contract rabies, and her vet knows she has had a reaction to the shot, why wouldn't he provide you with an exemption? In the example he gave the Yorkie was only guilty of being in the home where a bat happened to be found with the possibility she could have been bitten and no rabies shot, but proof of exemption should be protection on the off chance you would ever be in a similar situation.


In most places the exemption only stops you from being fined for not being in compliance. It will not save your dog in that situation (or any situation). Exemptions only allow you to get a lisence or go to a vet without having to get the shot. If there is an incident a dog with an exemption is as dead as a dog without one. 

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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

Ah, thank you for the explanation. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong--it's my thinking in these situations that annoys my hubby--but it just irks me not to have a choice for fear of losing my dog. I could post a book on what I think, but I guess I'll let it go since I can't fix it.


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

lulu'smom said:


> Ah, thank you for the explanation. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong--it's my thinking in these situations that annoys my hubby--but it just irks me not to have a choice for fear of losing my dog. I could post a book on what I think, but I guess I'll let it go since I can't fix it.


I agree with you totally! It is really unfortunate that they will not accept titers many places (that I don't get because if the titer then they for sure are immune!) and that so many places require it every year. The vaccine has been shown to last much longer than that. At least here it is one year for the first one then three years after that. However from a human public health standpoint I understand why they are so serious about it.

Has anyone ever had experience with the rattlesnake vaccine? It is my understanding that it actually protects against all pit vipers, but I elected not to get it because the Mojave rattler is not a pit viper. My vet was trying to sell that one hard. I was talking about it with some people the other day who were saying that a lot of vets are not carrying anti-venom anymore because it expires so fast and with more people getting the vaccine they were not using it. I know what vets have anti-venom but it is still a worry. I also don't know if I would risk a vaccine for something that rare. If anyone has thoughts I'd love to hear!


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## KrystalLeigh (Aug 17, 2011)

doginthedesert said:


> I agree with you totally! It is really unfortunate that they will not accept titers many places (that I don't get because if the titer then they for sure are immune!) and that so many places require it every year. The vaccine has been shown to last much longer than that. At least here it is one year for the first one then three years after that. However from a human public health standpoint I understand why they are so serious about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone ever had experience with the rattlesnake vaccine? It is my understanding that it actually protects against all pit vipers, but I elected not to get it because the Mojave rattler is not a pit viper. My vet was trying to sell that one hard. I was talking about it with some people the other day who were saying that a lot of vets are not carrying anti-venom anymore because it expires so fast and with more people getting the vaccine they were not using it. I know what vets have anti-venom but it is still a worry. I also don't know if I would risk a vaccine for something that rare. If anyone has thoughts I'd love to hear!



I didn't even know there was a vaccine! Our rattlesnakes here are pit vipers but I think they're generally non-aggressive. I hike quite a bit and have never seen or heard one. Did they mention if a chi would even make it to the clinic to receive the anti-venom? 


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

It really depends, only one in ten bites actually injects venom because the snake needs its venom to eat, it does not want to waste it. Also if the snake recently ate it may just have a tiny bit of venom, or it may have a lot. A chi, a person, a great dane- it all just depends how much venom is injected and how far away you are from help. Our vet said if you immobilized the chi and got somewhere fast they would have a chance with the anti venom.
I am for sure not getting the vaccine though, as i said it doesnt help our rattlers and even if it did we have only ever seen one snake in 5 years of hiking and camping constantly.

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## KrystalLeigh (Aug 17, 2011)

doginthedesert said:


> It really depends, only one in ten bites actually injects venom because the snake needs its venom to eat, it does not want to waste it. Also if the snake recently ate it may just have a tiny bit of venom, or it may have a lot. A chi, a person, a great dane- it all just depends how much venom is injected and how far away you are from help. Our vet said if you immobilized the chi and got somewhere fast they would have a chance with the anti venom.
> I am for sure not getting the vaccine though, as i said it doesnt help our rattlers and even if it did we have only ever seen one snake in 5 years of hiking and camping constantly.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Strange how they would offer the vaccine if it's not effective with the type of snake you have there. I worked at a wildlife park that had two rattlesnakes and that's the only time I've ever seen them. People do get bit here, but our vet has never mentioned a vaccine so it must not be common for dogs to need it. I always stay on trail and keep Odie on leash anyway. 


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

lulu'smom said:


> Michelle, I didn't do an indepth search, but I did do a bit of a search on colloidal silver. Nothing I saw said anything negative except if it is overused. I don't think you would do that, so I would give it a try if I were you and felt comfortable.
> 
> AS far as Gidget and her rabies shot, if you feel comfortable that she would never be in a position herself to contract rabies, and her vet knows she has had a reaction to the shot, why wouldn't he provide you with an exemption? In the example he gave the Yorkie was only guilty of being in the home where a bat happened to be found with the possibility she could have been bitten and no rabies shot, but proof of exemption should be protection on the off chance you would ever be in a similar situation.


He said he could not give an exemption, I do not think our county allows it, which is silly to me because they are so lax on so many other things pertaining to animals?? He has told me that it is up to me and he provides no information like that to the authorities when requested and nothing short of a court order could get that info from him.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

doginthedesert said:


> I agree with you totally! It is really unfortunate that they will not accept titers many places (that I don't get because if the titer then they for sure are immune!) and that so many places require it every year. The vaccine has been shown to last much longer than that. At least here it is one year for the first one then three years after that. However from a human public health standpoint I understand why they are so serious about it.
> 
> Has anyone ever had experience with the rattlesnake vaccine? It is my understanding that it actually protects against all pit vipers, but I elected not to get it because the Mojave rattler is not a pit viper. My vet was trying to sell that one hard. I was talking about it with some people the other day who were saying that a lot of vets are not carrying anti-venom anymore because it expires so fast and with more people getting the vaccine they were not using it. I know what vets have anti-venom but it is still a worry. I also don't know if I would risk a vaccine for something that rare. If anyone has thoughts I'd love to hear!


The more I read and talk to people the more I am thinking titering is not the way to go either...it is all very confusing but titering is $85.00 at my vet and if it is not really that dependable then I hate to be wasting my money :/

I have never head of getting the anti-venom before without having a dog being bit by a snake. Our Weimaraner likes to kill snakes and has been bitten by a few Copperheads and he was fine but once he was bitten by a young Rattlesnake and had to be rushed to the vet for the Anti-venom but from my understanding he can never get the anti-venom again or it will kill him, I am not sure if this means he will be immune to future snake bites or not though?


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

I have been watching Animal Planet this week is like monster week or something to that affect. I watched the Man eating Zombie Cats episode so far and it is really interesting about Big Cats getting Distemper and then not fearing people at all. Said that big cat communities are on the rise in the states and where they had been gone from for years but were back in multitudes and starting to go into the cities, etc.. killing a lot of people in the process. Even the Cats that are known not to be social with other cats are getting distemper. They think it originally came from them eating dogs and coyotes but they had a Big Cat sanctuary where cats have never been around dogs and they got Distemper thought to have gotten it from Raccoons. Kind of scary if you think about it.


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

It's very confusing and frustrating. I get one thing in my head, and the next thing I know I find out it's not the way I thought it was. I thought tittering determined immunities--period. If you had your dog tittered, it either showed they had immunities or they didn't--period. Is that not the case?


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

Yoshismom said:


> The more I read and talk to people the more I am thinking titering is not the way to go either...it is all very confusing but titering is $85.00 at my vet and if it is not really that dependable then I hate to be wasting my money :/
> 
> I have never head of getting the anti-venom before without having a dog being bit by a snake. Our Weimaraner likes to kill snakes and has been bitten by a few Copperheads and he was fine but once he was bitten by a young Rattlesnake and had to be rushed to the vet for the Anti-venom but from my understanding he can never get the anti-venom again or it will kill him, I am not sure if this means he will be immune to future snake bites or not though?


The vaccine is not the anti-venom but it does work the same way sort of. Once they get the vaccine they can't have the anti-venom, but the idea is that they are protected. I'm not sure if the anti-venom would provide the same sort of protection for then next bite but according to the FAQ I found online the dog can get the vaccine after a bite as long at 6 months has passed- Rattlesnake Vaccines Frequently Asked Questions | Red Rock Biologics

I think personally rattlesnake avoidance training is probably better than the vaccine for a dog that you think would respond well to it. In fact it is just about the only use of a shock collar I would ever be willing to entertain (because the dog, particularly one that never had the devise on before would think the snake is the thing doing the hurting and not associate it with people at all). Chis are for sure too small for that though. 

I'm surprised more people have not heard of the vaccine- a lot of vets here really, really push it. Funny enough though it is like they have never read the fine print on the label or looked at a map of snake distribution because it would be useless to the rattlers we run into!


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

lulu'smom said:


> It's very confusing and frustrating. I get one thing in my head, and the next thing I know I find out it's not the way I thought it was. I thought tittering determined immunities--period. If you had your dog tittered, it either showed they had immunities or they didn't--period. Is that not the case?


That is not the case. If the titer was high it means the dog is immune for sure. If the titer is low it means either the dog is not immune, or it is still immune but it's system has not been challenged with that disease lately. That is why I will not titer for at least 6 years on parvo/distemper (the amount of time that the vaccine has been shown to last at minimum in challenge trials). If it is low then I will probably re-vaccinate because there is no way to know if the dog is immune or not.


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

doginthedesert said:


> That is not the case. If the titer was high it means the dog is immune for sure. If the titer is low it means either the dog is not immune, or it is still immune but it's system has not been challenged with that disease lately. That is why I will not titer for at least 6 years on parvo/distemper (the amount of time that the vaccine has been shown to last at minimum in challenge trials). If it is low then I will probably re-vaccinate because there is no way to know if the dog is immune or not.


OK. I get this. Thank you so much, Annie, for explaining this to me. I'm going to have to make me some kind of notebook of fact to remember so I don't forget this. lol

Edit: But one point--if the titer show immunities, the dog is definitely immune. It's only is it shows low that it's questionable. Right?


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

lulu'smom said:


> Edit: But one point--if the titer show immunities, the dog is definitely immune. It's only is it shows low that it's questionable. Right?


That is correct.


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