# BYBs at it again...



## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I always seem to come across these BYB websites, and this one is horrible. None of the dogs are breed standard, and they are way overpriced for what they are. This really makes me sick to see breeders like this in business:

http://www.toypuppiesforu.com/index.html


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## Sariss (Jan 22, 2006)

Disgusting.

Though to be honest, I haven't found a Chihuhuahua breeder that I don't consider a BYB, or at least an irresponsible breeder.


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## sevdev (May 1, 2006)

OMG!!!! This is where Love Lola got her dogs! I see them on there!Raven AND Sonni!!!


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## joeyvinny (Mar 30, 2006)

I thought that was them - I switching between them and her siggy.


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## sevdev (May 1, 2006)

You can tell by Raven...same hernia!


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

thats really sad  i REALLY hate BYB and puppymills, and would NEVER support that business. love lola already knows her breeder is a BYB....and doesnt seem to mind much. oh well, i feel worse for the poor chis, especially the moms who are just being bred to death  HORRIBLE!!!


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## sevdev (May 1, 2006)

It is sad. Thoses mommies just look so worn out! But then, both my babies are from BYBs. The breeders in my area wat $1500 for a chi. I just couldn't afford that. I searched the humae society and the pound first, but nothing. I felt like it was my only option.


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

That's horrible =/ Not one of those chis is standard, and shouldn't even be bred ... I can't believe people who will knowingly support a byb. Sure, you want to help the poor puppies, but you are doing countless future puppies an injustice by allowing them to continue their business


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## Piggiepi (Apr 7, 2006)

I think it's sad that people support them too... And for love-lola to knowingly support them is kinda why I don't read her posts much, cause it kinda shows me that she doesn't care. I don't like saying that about people I don't even know, but that's what goes through my head everytime I see her posts.


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

Piggiepi said:


> I think it's sad that people support them too... And for love-lola to knowingly support them is kinda why I don't read her posts much, cause it kinda shows me that she doesn't care. I don't like saying that about people I don't even know, but that's what goes through my head everytime I see her posts.


me too....its not to be mean though, i just get upset knowing the poor moms of these dogs are bred so much! thats the worst part, yeah puppies are cute and all, but the moms of these dogs go through so much. and the only way to really help these dogs, sadly to say is DONT buy them! you cant save every dog or buy all the chis from BYBs/puppymills. :thumbleft:


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I didn't even realize that was the same breeder that Love-Lola got her chis from. I had only glanced at the puppies for sale page earlier. I have this bad habit of looking at chi puppies, and got linked to the page from Terrific Pets.


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## sevdev (May 1, 2006)

Lol! I got my pups before I really understood the harm that BYB's do! I will not buy from another, especially after reading all of your posts.


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

i dont think people think about the moms before they buy, if they did i think it would make a world of a difference if you think about all the pain they go through.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

It is really sad. I can't stand puppy mills and BYBs.


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

Piggiepi said:


> I think it's sad that people support them too... And for love-lola to knowingly support them is kinda why I don't read her posts much, cause it kinda shows me that she doesn't care. I don't like saying that about people I don't even know, but that's what goes through my head everytime I see her posts.


I really agree. At first I kinda understood and I was like, 'that's okay, she didn't know until after', but then she bought another ... and then another ...

Now ... I dunno =/


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## Piggiepi (Apr 7, 2006)

luvballet said:


> I really agree. At first I kinda understood and I was like, 'that's okay, she didn't know until after', but then she bought another ... and then another ...
> 
> Now ... I dunno =/


Yeah, exactly! That's what's so sad about it! And she openly admitted that she didn't realize until afterwards, so obviously she knows that it's bad... But she continues to buy from them... I don't get it... Besides, bringing a dog into where she has isn't good either, knowing that there were dogs with Parvo and such... first of all, I don't think she puts enough into Lola as far as training and such, and now she's gonna have two more to worry about!! I have my hands tied with one!


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

I know me too! I couldn't handle another until Yoshi is a little older and nicely trained. I want her to be very good, and so far, she's GREAT!!


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## Courtney (Jun 2, 2005)

I, honestly, would NEVER buy a dog from there. Their dogs are WAY out of standard, way overpriced, and it's definitely a BYB. The Mom's look way too old to be breeding & not even in breed standard. 

Places like this disgust me.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

It really disgusts me when breeders are breeding for all of the wrong reasons. There are so many homeless dogs out there in need of homes... while people are breeding dogs that don't even look like they should. I'm sorry, but I think it is horrible that there are so many BYBs and puppy millers.


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## Ms_P (Apr 25, 2004)

luvballet said:


> I really agree. At first I kinda understood and I was like, 'that's okay, she didn't know until after', but then she bought another ... and then another ...
> 
> Now ... I dunno =/


 
Can you all stop a minute and think about what you are saying.

How would you feel if someone wrote something like this about you? Would it make you feel good?


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

I just don't understand why someone would support someone they know to be a puppy mill over and over again. It just baffles me, that's all. I didn't say anything mean about her at all, I was trying to be nice about it.


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## Courtney (Jun 2, 2005)

I think it's a little different when they knew that it was not a reputable breeder and they kept buying dogs from them. 

I have bought a puppy from a breeder that I do not consider to be the greatest. I know that Diesel is not perfect breed standard and I would not buy another dog from these people, I learned the hard way but I love Diesel more than life. I just wouldn't keep going back to these people when I already realized that they aren't practicing good breeding practices and trying to better the breed.


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## AEROMarley1983 (Sep 12, 2005)

sevdev said:


> OMG!!!! This is where Love Lola got her dogs! I see them on there!Raven AND Sonni!!!


MY EXACT THOUGHTS!~ I was like, "MAN that looks like Raven"....and saw where it talked about her having the hernia. I was like, OMG! That's Raven!!


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## Piggiepi (Apr 7, 2006)

I wasn't trying to be mean about her either... I just think it's very irrespnsible to do such a thing. Especially to buy a dog that has a hernia because he was "half off." Also, who is so uncaring that they will sell a dog like that!? Half off because there's something wrong with it? Keep it, fix the problem, then adopt it out!


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## AEROMarley1983 (Sep 12, 2005)

This seems out of place now, but what's a BYB?


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

Back yard breeder. It is someone who breeds for money, not to better the breed, does not breed to breed standards.


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## Courtney (Jun 2, 2005)

Piggiepi said:


> I wasn't trying to be mean about her either... I just think it's very irrespnsible to do such a thing. Especially to buy a dog that has a hernia because he was "half off." Also, who is so uncaring that they will sell a dog like that!? Half off because there's something wrong with it? Keep it, fix the problem, then adopt it out!


I was thinking the SAME thing. When my husband & I were first searching for Chihuahua puppies, we visited a breeder that had dogs WAY out of standard and were trying to sell us one with a hernia for a cheaper price. We walked out of their empty handed and would NEVER consider buying one of their puppies or recommend them to anyone. They should definitely fix the problem and then adopt the baby out. It's going to go through enough stress flying and then you add in it's health problems, poor baby. :?


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

Courtney said:


> I was thinking the SAME thing. When my husband & I were first searching for Chihuahua puppies, we visited a breeder that had dogs WAY out of standard and were trying to sell us one with a hernia for a cheaper price. We walked out of their empty handed and would NEVER consider buying one of their puppies or recommend them to anyone. They should definitely fix the problem and then adopt the baby out. It's going to go through enough stress flying and then you add in it's health problems, poor baby. :?


That is what most breeders would do, is fix the problem, because who knows if the person who is buying it will fix the problem. Breeders (good ones) don't take that chance, they want their puppies to be healthy, even at a great financial loss to themselves. They do it because they LOVE their puppies.


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## AEROMarley1983 (Sep 12, 2005)

~Jessie~ said:


> Back yard breeder. It is someone who breeds for money, not to better the breed, does not breed to breed standards.


Oh....I soooo knew that. *smacks forehead* I should have figured that out.  Thanks Jessie. :wink:


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

Hehe, no problem 

If I were a breeder, I would fix the hernia, and then adopt (not sell!) the puppy out. I think it's odd that the puppies with defects are "1/2 off". Very strange.


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

Just wanted to add, that I'm sure the breeder wouldn't feel very good reading this either, but if you're gonna do something like that, then you have to put up with people judging you on what they believe to be wrong and immoral, along with labelling you as irresponsible. It's just a fact of life ... if you're gonna kill someone, you're a murderer, if you steal from a store, you're a theif, if you lie, you're a liar. It's not mean, it's what you are if you do these things, and if you're gonna do them, you have to accept the consequences, and one of those is what other people think of you.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

Yup^^. That is why I always post these links; to make people aware of the BYBs that are out there. If you are going to be an irresponsible breeder, you should be labeled as one.


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## Courtney (Jun 2, 2005)

I also appreciate threads like this because it makes people aware of irresponsible breeders and urges people not to buy from these people.


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## Piggiepi (Apr 7, 2006)

^^ Agreed 100%


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

Holy cow what is that breeder thinking? To put it up on the website that you get a discount to the first one that comes along and says they will get the hernia fixed :banghead: . I have nothing nice to say so am walking away saying nothing more


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

luvballet said:


> Just wanted to add, that I'm sure the breeder wouldn't feel very good reading this either, but if you're gonna do something like that, then you have to put up with people judging you on what they believe to be wrong and immoral, along with labelling you as irresponsible. It's just a fact of life ... if you're gonna kill someone, you're a murderer, if you steal from a store, you're a theif, if you lie, you're a liar. It's not mean, it's what you are if you do these things, and if you're gonna do them, you have to accept the consequences, and one of those is what other people think of you.


i agree too!


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I couldn't imagine selling a puppy for 1/2 price to the first person who wanted it. Imagine how many people would buy the puppy and not fix the hernia?! Ugh.


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## Piggiepi (Apr 7, 2006)

~Jessie~ said:


> I couldn't imagine selling a puppy for 1/2 price to the first person who wanted it. Imagine how many people would buy the puppy and not fix the hernia?! Ugh.


Well obviously the breeder doesn't give a crap about _any_ dog.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

It's very sad, those poor puppies  You would think that breeders would feel a sense of pride in raising their puppies. I wish that all breeders would be responsible and breed to breed standards!


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## Tucker-N-Jasper (Aug 6, 2005)

Its still rude to talk about someone as if she wasn't there regardless of your opinions. 

I also wonder why hasn't or if everyone would put up a link to their breeder that way judging can be full circle. Not to be argumentative but these holier than though, I would never do something like that posts are getting old. Its one thing to point something out (hey here's another byb to be aware of) its another to rant on and on about a member of our community.


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## Sariss (Jan 22, 2006)

I don't really understand why any breeder would sell a dog to the first person with the money. One reason why I don't like certain puppy buying sites. It's like department store shopping for a pet.


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## Piggiepi (Apr 7, 2006)

Tucker-N-Jasper said:


> Its still rude to talk about someone as if she wasn't there regardless of your opinions.
> 
> I also wonder why hasn't or if everyone would put up a link to their breeder that way judging can be full circle. Not to be argumentative but these holier than though, I would never do something like that posts are getting old. Its one thing to point something out (hey here's another byb to be aware of) its another to rant on and on about a member of our community.


The difference is that she admitted that she knew it was wrong, but keeps buying from the same breeder. Several of us here have admitted that we bought from one, then realized it later and have NOT continued buying from the same breeder.

Not one of us have said "I would never do that." I've actually seen some say "I would never to that _again_" tho.


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## Tucker-N-Jasper (Aug 6, 2005)

The difference is you can point something out but you don't have to rant on it. And yes there has been statements of "I'd never do".. I'd never sell a dog cheaper if it needed medical attention.. for one.


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## Piggiepi (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't really think we were ranting. There's a difference between ranting and discussing. And I think the other people involved in the conversation would back me up on that. We're concerned for the dogs, and I feel that's quite obvious.

And I've never noticed any statements of "I'd never do that" on here. But I'm sure it's quite possible. I think the people stating that probably look into their breeders to make sure they aren't doing that, so they may have the right to say "I'd never do that." Neither of us know for sure.


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## sevdev (May 1, 2006)

Yikes, here we go! I see both sides. I wish that Love Lola was here to defend herself. I will tell you that y'all made me feel like crap! I got both of my pups from BYBs unknowingly. I would try to not do it again, but with chis being sold by the breeders areound here for $1500...I just can;t do that. I say to each his own and leave it at that.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

sevdev said:


> Yikes, here we go! I see both sides. I wish that Love Lola was here to defend herself. I will tell you that y'all made me feel like crap! I got both of my pups from BYBs unknowingly. I would try to not do it again, but with chis being sold by the breeders areound here for $1500...I just can;t do that. I say to each his own and leave it at that.


The difference is, you did it unknowingly. I bought Madison from a BYB before I knew any better. I learned my lesson, though, after that.


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

Yeah exactly, it's not wrong and it's not your fault at all if you didn't know it was a byb when you bought them. 



Tucker-N-Jasper said:


> I also wonder why hasn't or if everyone would put up a link to their breeder that way judging can be full circle.


Here's where I got Yoshi, lol ... 

http://us.geocities.com/maralene_kennels/index.html

He doesn't sell the puppies to just anyone though, or online, the site is just to get in contact with him. So there ya go, I'm happy to post my breeder online.


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## Piggiepi (Apr 7, 2006)

sevdev said:


> Yikes, here we go! I see both sides. I wish that Love Lola was here to defend herself. I will tell you that y'all made me feel like crap! I got both of my pups from BYBs unknowingly. I would try to not do it again, but with chis being sold by the breeders areound here for $1500...I just can;t do that. I say to each his own and leave it at that.





~Jessie~ said:


> The difference is, you did it unknowingly. I bought Madison from a BYB before I knew any better. I learned my lesson, though, after that.


I'm gonna have to agree with Jessie. You didn't know what you were doing.. Sorry we made you feel bad, but you shouldn't. A lot of people buy from people that shouldn't be selling dogs and then later realize it. I looked into my breeder a lot before buying Yoshi, and she seemed like an excellent breeder. And honestly she is good and does care about her dogs, but she keeps them outside all the time except in the winter. Next time I will be looking into a breeder that breeds dogs that are truly part of the family, and are kept inside. The one good thing about Yoshi's breeder is that she doesn't overbreed her dogs.. She really truly has like one litter every month, no more. And doesn't breed much in the winter cause that's a hard time for such small dogs to come into the world. I did recently however notice that she started using the term "teacup" on her site for two of the puppies... And that made me kind of angry. But then she got more good points when I emailed her about Yoshi's mange, and she apologized tremendously and told me she'd bring his mom to the vet and see what they say about her, and she said she'd email the other new owners of his littermates and let them know to look for it. I don't know if she actually did all that, but just her saying it was nice enough for me.

All of that being said, I will say that I probably bought from a BYB too, and knowing that I will not return to her. So don't feel bad about it. You did what you did knowing what you knew at the time. And a least your chi is healthy, and now you know to look into the breeders first. I think you shouldn't feel bad about that at all. I think you should now feel educated.


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## usmcjess (May 3, 2005)

This is the lady I got Yoda from, I knew that when i got him and he was sick that that is where he came from, A byb. I have reported her already to tons of places\.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

^^ Your breeder has adorable dogs, luvballet 

Rylie and Chloe's breeders do not have webpages, but I am more than happy to post their email addresses on here if anyone would like them


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## Piggiepi (Apr 7, 2006)

Tucker-N-Jasper said:


> I also wonder why hasn't or if everyone would put up a link to their breeder that way judging can be full circle.


http://hometown.aol.com/leahzacha/SunGoldHomepage.html

Like I just stated in my previous post, she's more than likely a BYB. Judge for yourself.

*edit* In addition to why I've stated that I liked her as a breeder, she doesn't let her puppies go until they are at least 8 weeks old, no less. and also if they seem to be having a problem eating hard food she makes sure they are okay with that before she will let them leave her home.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I don't think that I would consider your breeder to be a backyard breeder, piggiepi- all of her dogs are registered, she has been breeding for 17 years, has a health guarantee, and the dogs all look to be breed standard


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

~Jessie~ said:


> I don't think that I would consider your breeder to be a backyard breeder, piggiepi- all of her dogs are registered, she has been breeding for 17 years, has a health guarantee, and the dogs all look to be breed standard


I agree ^_^ And I think she has beautiful puppies  She also doesn't have any litters available, so at least she's not constantly breeding.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

The breeder that I posted had 2 current litters and 3 more on the way. I consider that to be overbreeding.


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

~Jessie~ said:


> The breeder that I posted had 2 current litters and 3 more on the way. I consider that to be overbreeding.


Yeah definitely. Yoshi's breeder has three or four litters a year I think. They just can't be cared for properly, or socialized when there are that many.


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## Piggiepi (Apr 7, 2006)

Occasionally she'll have a couple at the same time, but not too many that she can't handle... so I guess I'm glad I posted her on here and I now know your opinions! Maybe I will consider going back to her... Cause darn she does have some beautiful dogs. lol


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

Chloe's breeder only has a few litters a year, and the same with Rylie's breeder.


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## RoxyGirl (Feb 16, 2006)

I can not believe how rude some of you can be. Please treat others the way you would like to be treated and don't say anything if you do not have anything nice to say. Most of you are so young that you should still remember the lessons your mothers taught you.


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## canadiandawn (Jan 11, 2006)

Amen Sister!


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

RoxyGirl said:


> I can not believe how rude some of you can be. Please treat others the way you would like to be treated and don't say anything if you do not have anything nice to say. Most of you are so young that you should still remember the lessons your mothers taught you.


I never said anything mean about anyone, except for the breeder who is obviously not a good one.

You only have 49 posts... hardly enough to start lecturing.


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## RoxyGirl (Feb 16, 2006)

Jessie - I did not know that you had to have tons of posts to know about good manners. I come here to learn about Chi's from othe Chi owners - some who have way way more knowledge than me. However I did learn how to be polite and not hurt peoples feelings years ago. I thought this bb was about learning from each other and support. If I am wrong then this obviously is not the place for me.


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## Piggiepi (Apr 7, 2006)

~Jessie~ said:


> I never said anything mean about anyone, except for the breeder who is obviously not a good one.
> 
> You only have 49 posts... hardly enough to start lecturing.


:angel12:  :thumbright:


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## tiny- dog- luverr (Oct 28, 2005)

also how would you know how young or old somebody is ? bit too sure of yourself arent we???

i must say to that breeder it is sad yes i hope those poor mothers get a break someday.nothing is as bad as that awful texas teacups.


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## Piggiepi (Apr 7, 2006)

RoxyGirl said:


> Jessie - I did not know that you had to have tons of posts to know about good manners. I come here to learn about Chi's from othe Chi owners - some who have way way more knowledge than me. However I did learn how to be polite and not hurt peoples feelings years ago. I thought this bb was about learning from each other and support. If I am wrong then this obviously is not the place for me.


This is the place for support, it's a great place at that. Perhaps once you are here for longer tho, you will understand why we are discussing what we are discussing the way we are discussing it. We were not being rude, and I'm sorry you thought that. Perhaps if you had been here longer you would know some of the background we are talking about, I think that's what Jessie meant, and I agree.

edit--



tiny- dog- luverr said:


> also how would you know how young or old somebody is ? bit too sure of yourself arent we???


Thank you for saying that.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I had posted this breeder's website because I was looking at chi puppy ads today (something I do when I am bored, because chi puppies are so darn cute). Whenever I look at ads, I normally post the bad websites that I find. I feel as if I am helping people by doing this. I know that others on here do the same thing, and I find it helpful to see who is good/bad, and you learn who to stay away from. I did not realize that this was where love-lola got her puppies from, as I briefly skimmed the for sale page (looking at the parents pages was enough for me).

I do think that this site is a great one for info and support. I appreciate it when other people post up links like this. I think that RoxyGrl needs to learn to be more mature, as age has nothing to do with this thread. She has no idea how old all of us are, and even if she is older, it doesn't even matter.


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## CM Katie (Sep 28, 2005)

Jessie's posted websites of BYB's in the past. It's not like she posted this one to show everyone how awful one of our members is for buying puppies from this lady.
It just so happened that this particular "breeder" happened to breed puppies purchased by one of our members.

Our intention in this thread wasn't to "attack" a certain member, or point out "what she's done wrong" etc. 
I agree that some of the comments were a bit harsh, but that's not Jessie's fault.


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## RoxyGirl (Feb 16, 2006)

I just wish that you were as kind to other members here as you are to your dogs. And there was a thread about how old people were on here and I did read it. I did not say I had a problem with you pointing out byb. My only problem was with some of the comments that were said about another member. I did not name names and if you took it personaly than that is your guilt not mine. I have learnt alot here and have enjoyed looking at all the pictures and hearing all the great stories about people loving their dogs as much as I do.


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## RoxyGirl (Feb 16, 2006)

Katie 18 said:


> I agree that some of the comments were a bit harsh, but that's not Jessie's fault.


I never directed anything towards Jessie other than to defend myself when she comented on my number of posts.


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## Piggiepi (Apr 7, 2006)

I think you're pretty defensive. And I understand that, cause so am I. But I think this should pretty much be dropped cause I don't see the point in arguing about it for another 20 posts. The fact is some of us don't agree with what another member is doing, and we stated that. We also don't like BYBs, as was the reason for post. This is over IMO.


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## Kari (May 13, 2004)

I'm locking this one. :fart:


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