# New to Chihuahuas! Couple questions?



## ams151 (Feb 23, 2014)

Hey all, I posted a few days ago when I found a little chi walking the streets by himself and have not had success finding the owners. I have started calling him Chalupa since he looks so much like the Taco Bell chihuahua. I have a big dobe and the two are just infatuated. My first thread is here with pictures and some details! 
http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chi-chat/145282-found-chihuahua-what-do-next.html

Anyway, I'm going to pick up some supplies for him so I wanted some opinions! 
-Do you all prefer collar and leash or is it better to use a harness? 
-Do you crate? 
-I'm planning on getting him neutered and I don't know how much it costs. I did some digging on here and elsewhere and it seems like it ranges all over the place!! I guess I was just wondering how much you guys paid? 
-Fave type of food? He's been getting blue buffalo small breed

That's all for now! Thank you so much!


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## EmilyS (Feb 26, 2014)

-Do you all prefer collar and leash or is it better to use a harness? 

Harness is better for small dogs, because it doesn't put as much pressure on their fragile trachea. If you only have a leash and collar now, be gentle until you get a harness. 

-Do you crate? 

For puppies, yes. Once an adult dog is properly trained, it shouldn't have any problems being in the house outside the crate, alone or not, no aggressive/territorial behavior should be present. If the dog has obedience problems, then POSITIVE crating is a good way to help train away bad behavior. 

It is also good for potty training. 

-I'm planning on getting him neutered and I don't know how much it costs. I did some digging on here and elsewhere and it seems like it ranges all over the place!! I guess I was just wondering how much you guys paid? 

I paid $400 for my big retriever. Chi's vary between 200-300. That's an acceptable price where I am. Some places are as low as $150, or even $100, but I'm personally skeptical of those prices. 

-Fave type of food? He's been getting blue buffalo small breed

That food is great! No need to change it. There will always be people telling you that "their food is the better food because..." but really there is no proven benefits of natural/raw over prepared kibble according to empirical data. The Dog Food Advisor rates your dog food as 5/5 (Best Dry Dog Foods) so you can feel confident that Chalupa is eating some of the best food out there!  

Keep trying to find the owner, but if not, welcome to the wonderful world of Chi Ownership!


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## Chiluv04 (Dec 19, 2013)

Hi! Sounds like you've decided to keep him . Most of us use a harness and leash as opposed to collar and leash, though it's ok to use a collar for all around wear. The harness will be safest for walks and the collar with a tag, name and number would be great in the event he gets lost again (hopefully he won't). As far as blue buffalo, I don't know a ton about it, but I do know that it is not the worst food. A lot of people on here feed raw, or freeze dried. I personally feed kibble, currently taste of the wild, it is a grain free food, very affordable, comes in several flavors and has great ratings. There were some recalls in the past on their wet food, I've had no issues with their dry food. Some of the other foods I like are Fromm, Fromm is another great grain free food, I'd feed it, however I have a couple picky dogs. Orijen and acana are right up there with the best kibble, they are a bit pricey, but very high quality and Merrick is a great food too. Many people on here rave about a freeze dried food called primal (I'd like to try ) and Stella and chewy's. You can find all of these foods and their reviews on dogfoodadvisor.com or dogfoodanslysis.com. As far as crating him, I don't think thats a bad idea for the first little bit, or if he's ok to be left in a confined room like your bedroom or a bathroom with a blanket, water and a toy. I'm sure others will chime in on anything I'm missing. Their are tons of things to learn on here, and several great books about chi's, if you want to learn further about the breed😊


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

actually raw/ freeze dried raw food makes the poops smaller  less smellier as well. that is evidence enough


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## ams151 (Feb 23, 2014)

Thank you!!! That all makes sense. I'll probably go find a harness tomorrow. I will continue to look for the owner I have fliers up everywhere... vets, shelter, pet stores, businesses near where he was found, etc! And craigslist, facebook, and this webpage for lost pets. I'm hopeful he gets back to his family but I do love having him too  As far as the cost of neutering goes, Oh well, I guess that's how it goes! I'll have to call and get a quote I figure.


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## EmilyS (Feb 26, 2014)

pigeonsheep said:


> actually raw/ freeze dried raw food makes the poops smaller  less smellier as well. that is evidence enough


That's true! You're right!

What I meant was: nutritionally, there isn't much evidence that supports that a dog gets MORE nutrients from a raw/freeze dried diet than from a dry kibble. Or that it is in fact better for dogs because there are TERRIBLE freeze dried/raw products, just like there are AWFUL kibbles (Iams, Pedigree, Beneful etc. are not allowed in my house). It's all about doing the research and weighing the pros and cons for yourself!  

However benefits like smaller/less smelly poops/fresh food really are things to consider, but it's not easy on the wallet, or the most convenient.


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

love ur new siggy


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## Chiluv04 (Dec 19, 2013)

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Here's my fave book to read about chi's 😊. I think reading a book about the breed of dog you have is not only beneficial for you, but also beneficial for your pet. There are great books to read up on the general health and how to care for a dog, however I feel that a breed specific book gives you a bit more details and insight on your particular breed. And in addition to that, learning your pets history, safety and health concerns/hazards are essential as well.


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

personally to me its very convenient and well worth the money. the kids think that the wellness core dry that we have is just okay...its tolerable...but give a dog a sniff of primal and they go absolutely NUTS! u dont have to feed it for every meal, u can rotate  get a small bag and give it a try! :] ive turned a lot of people into primal lovers here and on fb lol  no dog has turned it down yet!


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

Chiluv04 said:


> View attachment 43826
> View attachment 43834
> 
> Here's my fave book to read about chi's 😊. I think reading a book about the breed of dog you have is not only beneficial for you, but also beneficial for your pet. There are great books to read up on the general health and how to care for a dog, however I feel that a breed specific book gives you a bit more details and insight on your particular breed. And in addition to that, learning your pets history, safety and health concerns/hazards are essential as well.
> ...


i have this book  and like 4 others LOL! :mirrorwave: i never get to finish them since they're soooo long haha!


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## Chiluv04 (Dec 19, 2013)

pigeonsheep said:


> personally to me its very convenient and well worth the money. the kids think that the wellness core dry that we have is just okay...its tolerable...but give a dog a sniff of primal and they go absolutely NUTS! u dont have to feed it for every meal, u can rotate  get a small bag and give it a try! :] ive turned a lot of people into primal lovers here and on fb lol  no dog has turned it down yet!



I NEED to try some on my crew! Lol. Ever since I found that they like freeze dried treats, I've been curious to see how they like primal 😊


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

Chiluv04 said:


> I NEED to try some on my crew! Lol. Ever since I found that they like freeze dried treats, I've been curious to see how they like primal 😊
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


they will LOVE it!!! i get mine at chewy.com :] they have a coupon for autoship which u can delay, cancel, edit any time.

come onnnnnnn u KNOW you wanna get a bag!
Primal Beef Formula Nuggets Freeze-Dried Dog Food

look how happy KC looks ;p


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## Chiluv04 (Dec 19, 2013)

pigeonsheep said:


> i have this book  and like 4 others LOL! :mirrorwave: i never get to finish them since they're soooo long haha!



I love that book! I have two copies lol. People keep giving me copies of this book for my birthday, not knowing I already have one!! Hehe. What other chi books do you have?


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

Chiluv04 said:


> I love that book! I have two copies lol. People keep giving me copies of this book for my birthday, not knowing I already have one!! Hehe. What other chi books do you have?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


lol hahahaha!!! :lol: that is too funny! i think i got this as a birthday gift too ;p lemme see if i can find the others i have


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## Chiluv04 (Dec 19, 2013)

pigeonsheep said:


> they will LOVE it!!! i get mine at chewy.com :] they have a coupon for autoship which u can delay, cancel, edit any time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



KC you are a great seller of primal my darling! I think I'm gonna try to find a bag local? Wetnose dog boutique by me is holding a $25 off coupon for me. This would be a great time to use it 


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

i hope they have it there! u can always check on primals site and product locator to see. lol isn't she!


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## Chiluv04 (Dec 19, 2013)

pigeonsheep said:


> i hope they have it there! u can always check on primals site and product locator to see. lol isn't she!



I will. I've been meaning to get a bag forever. And KC always makes her food seem so tasty! Lol...she's such a little tease! There is also a holistic pet supply store I can go check out, it's 5 min from my house. I have a vet appointment Saturday for Ava, as long as it's not snowing too bad I may go over there and see if they have. It. Is primal typically sold online only? 


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

Chiluv04 said:


> I will. I've been meaning to get a bag forever. And KC always makes her food seem so tasty! Lol...she's such a little tease! There is also a holistic pet supply store I can go check out, it's 5 min from my house. I have a vet appointment Saturday for Ava, as long as it's not snowing too bad I may go over there and see if they have. It. Is primal typically sold online only?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


awesome! primal is sold in stores but they tend to cost more there esp. in fancy hollistic ones ;p at my hollstic pet store they sell it for so much more $ so i justget it online and save $

here's my books LOL! i have more magazines somewhere...


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## ams151 (Feb 23, 2014)

Thanks! Hmm, freeze dried food? I'd be interested to know about that.. A book is an awesome idea! I got one for my dobe I will find one online maybe.


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## ams151 (Feb 23, 2014)

pigeonsheep said:


> awesome! primal is sold in stores but they tend to cost more there esp. in fancy hollistic ones ;p at my hollstic pet store they sell it for so much more $ so i justget it online and save $
> 
> here's my books LOL! i have more magazines somewhere...


LOL so many books!!!! Aah thats gonna be me...


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

ahahaha :lol: yes its a lot! :lol: im missin one book though from petsmart the chihuahua "bible" one


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## EmilyS (Feb 26, 2014)

It's $30 for 0.8 lb of food where I live. That's paying $1000 a year for food for a 5lb chihuahua. There is no way I am paying that for food. Ever! I barely even spend that much on food for myself every year! This doesn't even include shipping!
If you don't believe me, here is the link:
Store | Canadian Pet Connection

No way in the world I would buy this product. To me, this is a company knowingly exploiting people's obsession with health products. It's like buying fancy bottled water, saying it's good for your kidneys when clean water comes from a tap, and is also good for your kidneys. I'm actually getting angry thinking about it! Haha. There is absolutely no evidence that this is a nutritionally better food for a dog. It might have some benefits over other dog foods, but every dog food seems to have a benefit over the other.

If the food costs me more than $200 per year, I absolutely refuse. You can purchase the best quality dog foods in North America (according to the Dog Food Advisor) for much less than that for a chi. 

I need a looooong bath. Haha


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## Kalisee (Jun 1, 2012)

EmilyS said:


> It's $30 for 0.8 lb of food where I live. That's paying $1000 a year for food for a 5lb chihuahua. There is no way I am paying that for food. Ever! I barely even spend that much on food for myself every year! This doesn't even include shipping!
> If you don't believe me, here is the link:
> Store | Canadian Pet Connection
> 
> ...


Wow! 1000 bucks??? I agree with you and the water analogy, there are many companies that play on the health-concious. A little chihuahua should not cost over 200 annually to feed..unless you have more than one, that I can understand.


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

lol you are solely basing food on prices? there's a bunch of facts online on how beneficial raw is and even on dogfoodadvisor it lists primal as a 5 star food :] i used to feed cheap food to dex as he came with it until i came to this forum and i went from royal canin to orijen to blue buffalo which wasnt a fav because of the black bits, totw, to natural balance to honest kitchen, ziwipeak, fromm, wellness core, i and love and you, stella and chewys , to primal. when he was on the cheaper kibbles he would be constantly pukin it out and his poops were rancid. wellness core to me changed his whole outlook on life as his daily activities got so much better then when i went to primal which dex and kc has been on since xmas [when huly introduced it to us] they are lively as ever and the poops woohoo! :lol: to me i rather spend a lot of money now than to spend loads on vet bills later on the line. i actually like fancy bottled water...LOL. my fav is fiji [the crisp clean taste mmmm]


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## EmilyS (Feb 26, 2014)

Well, I can't bring myself to buy water, or overpriced food. 
And yes, I factor in price. If I see a $20 apple at the market, I will turn right around buy a $1 apple. Throwing away money on a product that has no obvious benefits over the other is just... wierd to me. 

The benefits that I have seen are all from personal accounts, I can show you a bunch of studies that tell you that there is no empirical evidence from national studies that say raw diets are better for dogs than kibbles. 

The Dog Food Advisor also lists over 50 dry kibbles that are on par with Primal, as they also have 5 stars. They also don't cost an arm and a leg. 

I started off my retriever on Honest Kitchen, she refused to touch it, and since worked her way down from natural diets to Natural Choice kibble and she refused to eat anything else. She lived to be a happy and healthy old lady. Did I want to feed her the best? Yes of course. However she lived a really good life, and I didn't need to spend $10,800 a year feeding her (which is what it would have cost if I had fed her Primal). 

My aunt switched her very healthy jack russell to a raw diet over the course of 2 weeks. Something called "Stella's Raw.. whatever", I don't remember. He puked blood for 3 weeks and had to be hospitalized. Turns out that despite all the careful switching, his body rejected the raw diet. His poops were watery for a long time, and he lost 4.5 lbs (he was only 11 to begin with) and came very close to death. It cost my aunt a lot of money to fix the damage. The diet itself was prepared correctly, we know because her other dog was completely fine.
Once switched back to kibble, he was perfect again!

Does this mean that all raw diets are bad? No of course not. But claiming that a raw diet is "better than a kibble" is all kinds of incorrect. Raw diets have only developed over the past 5-10 years, and there isn't enough research to show the long term effects of this kind of diet on dogs. What the research shows right now is that there is no overall nutritional difference between raw diets and kibble diets because they contain the same ingredients, just processed (or not processed) differently. 

So yes, based on real information that is current today, I will not be spending an extra $800 annually on a food with no obvious overall health benefit for my dog except "less smelly poops".


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

To the OP, if your new boy is doing well on the kibble you are feeding, i would suggest keeping him on it for now. he has been through enough change recently. Later, when he is more settled you can look into improving his diet if you wish.

To EmilyS, when feeding a 5lb chihuahua I don't think cost should ever be a factor in your choice. While I agree that a quality 5 star kibble is an acceptable choice for most dogs, it doesn't mean it is the best (or only) way to feed. The reason there is no 'scientific evidence' proving that 'natural' diets are better is because the reports you are reading are created by the pet food industry, people who make huge profits by persuading you to buy their products. Kibble is something I would never personally choose to feed to my dogs. Kibble was created to be convenient for people. It would be perfectly possible to create a kibble for people, every nutrient required in a crunchy nugget, just scoop and serve three times a day. Would you be convinced that this was better for you than eating real food?
With dogs as tiny as Chihuahuas, every bite has to count. This is why Chi owners don't mind spending a bit more or taking a little more time to prepare a diet that is as close to a dogs natural diet as possible.


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## EmilyS (Feb 26, 2014)

Also, 40% of the water in a bottle of Fiji Water is regular tap water, and only some of it is actually from the Fiji Aquifer 
<3
The more you know: 
It's under "Why You Always Need to Look Below the Surface" 
What You Didnt Know About Fiji Water


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## ams151 (Feb 23, 2014)

EmilyS said:


> Also, 40% of the water in a bottle of Fiji Water is regular tap water, and only some of it is actually from the Fiji Aquifer
> <3
> The more you know:
> It's under "Why You Always Need to Look Below the Surface"
> What You Didnt Know About Fiji Water


But it tastes so pretty :tongue10:


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

well i have read about a big percentage of bottled water bein recycled tap water...however....maybe the tap water by ur place is yummy....mine is like iron. even the dogs get their own purified tap water...i can taste the diff in various brands of bottled water and once have tasted my poopy iron tastin tap water


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

"Raw diets have only developed over the past 5-10 years, and there isn't enough research to show the long term effects of this kind of diet on dogs."

This actually made me LOL. Dogs have been eating a raw diet for millions of years! The fact that they are here, in existence, proves that this diet works.
Kibble is a very new concept, it has only become popular in that last 50 or so years. What do you think dogs ate before kibble was invented?


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## ams151 (Feb 23, 2014)

Wicked Pixie said:


> To the OP, if your new boy is doing well on the kibble you are feeding, i would suggest keeping him on it for now. he has been through enough change recently. Later, when he is more settled you can look into improving his diet if you wish.


Thanks  I will for now. He's only eating a lil bit so I'm not trying to change it at the moment. I will do some research though for the future!!


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## EmilyS (Feb 26, 2014)

Wicked Pixie said:


> To the OP, if your new boy is doing well on the kibble you are feeding, i would suggest keeping him on it for now. he has been through enough change recently. Later, when he is more settled you can look into improving his diet if you wish.
> 
> To EmilyS, when feeding a 5lb chihuahua I don't think cost should ever be a factor in your choice. While I agree that a quality 5 star kibble is an acceptable choice for most dogs, it doesn't mean it is the best (or only) way to feed. The reason there is no 'scientific evidence' proving that 'natural' diets are better is because the reports you are reading are created by the pet food industry, people who make huge profits by persuading you to buy their products. Kibble is something I would never personally choose to feed to my dogs. Kibble was created to be convenient for people. It would be perfectly possible to create a kibble for people, every nutrient required in a crunchy nugget, just scoop and serve three times a day. Would you be convinced that this was better for you than eating real food?
> With dogs as tiny as Chihuahuas, every bite has to count. This is why Chi owners don't mind spending a bit more or taking a little more time to prepare a diet that is as close to a dogs natural diet as possible.



I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. 
The health-fanatics have also sent out their statistics to get you to buy their product as well. How can you tell me for certain that you haven't been influenced as I have?
I strive for a healthy medium between absurdity and moderation. I'm willing to go above and beyond expectation, but this is an all time ridiculous for me.

Natural is not synonymous with healthy (read my above story about the jack russell). I am skeptical of everything that I read, and in truth, I don't buy into this health-craze. Dogs have lived happily and successfully off of kibble since its invention. Albeit there are some better than others. 

I do not factor price in unless it is exorbitant, which I believe that diet is. I could feed my chi a dog food that costs me less than $40 per year. Even less if I just feed my dog some dry food and scraps. Obviously this is absolutely horrendous. 
I think $200 (give or take a little) is a reasonable cap, it allows me to buy the best on the market, without going to obsessive extremes. 

I also disagree that it is "closer to the dog's natural diet". If you look at the process of making a dehydrated food, it is hilariously close to how kibble is made, but instead of cooked, it is dried. 

Sorry, but you just can't convince me.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I am not trying to convince you, you are free to feed your dog whatever you wish. If it is doing really well on kibble that is great, there is definitely a place for convenience foods
Just because one dog didn't do well on a particular pre-made raw diet does not prove that an entire way of feeding is wrong.

"I also disagree that it is "closer to the dog's natural diet"." 
Erm, what do you think dogs evolved to eat? What did they eat before kibble, before canned food, before the concept of 'dog food'?

What actually convinced me to switch to a raw diet (I don't feed any prepared 'dog foods' at all) was a friend who is a breeder. She has been breeding dogs for many years, and fed various commercial diets, including kibble for the first 30. After switching to raw she found her dogs were not only in better health generally, (which is difficult to compare/measure, except maybe in terms of her annual vets bills) but they were living longer and having larger litters.


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## miuccias (Aug 22, 2012)

Thank you for taking him in and looking for his owner.
I personally feed Ziwipeak dried and canned food (much more expensive here than in the US, I must say)
I live in Europe so we don't get much choice, I have been trying to find Stella and Chewies and Primal for a year now but nothing..

I wrote to say thank you to those amazing owners we have in this forum. Nutrition and health is the most important thing! Cost should never be a problem. If you don't love a pet with your life then you don't deserve one, that's MY OPINION.
They love us so unconditionally and give themselves to us completely, the minimum we can do is giving them the best we can.

I understand people that can't afford something, or people that do the best they can with what they have but I do NOT understand people that put a price tag on their pets.
As I said this is MY opinion, the same way I feel like if you can't afford kids then you shouldn't have them.
So THANK YOU to those owners who within their possibilities give their pets, their babies, the best nutrition and care.


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## Chiluv04 (Dec 19, 2013)

pigeonsheep said:


> awesome! primal is sold in stores but they tend to cost more there esp. in fancy hollistic ones ;p at my hollstic pet store they sell it for so much more $ so i justget it online and save $
> 
> 
> 
> here's my books LOL! i have more magazines somewhere...



That's a lot of books! I want somenof those other chihuahua ones you have! Lol. Which flavor primal do you use/ recommend again? I may just buy it at the store first to see how my pups like it. Or I'll check ebay if you tell me which flavor to try.


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## Chiluv04 (Dec 19, 2013)

EmilyS said:


> Well, I can't bring myself to buy water, or overpriced food.
> 
> And yes, I factor in price. If I see a $20 apple at the market, I will turn right around buy a $1 apple. Throwing away money on a product that has no obvious benefits over the other is just... wierd to me.
> 
> ...



Wow girl! You have really done your home work. I read and saved an article from modern dog magazine that argues the very point you are trying to make. I find the topic of raw vs kibble to be quite intriguing! I must say I agree with some points of both arguments. Wish I knew how to upload that article though! It is very interesting! I sometimes wonder how healthy people eat themselves in comparison to their dogs lol! We as people eat things that we know aren't good for us, smoke cigarettes knowing they cause cancer, eat fried foods knowing they clog arteries, live off of frozen dinners and fast food knowing the meat is questionable, and yet we argue over whether a raw diet is better than kibble? I think to each their own. I don't judge either choice, I just hope that people themselves are living by the high standards they have set for their dogs. I am in no position to argue that kibble is better than raw or vice versa, they both seem great, however I choose kibble because that is what fits to my life style. And on a random note to something else someone said in this thread, I am really sick of people trying to judge who should or shouldn't have a dog based on the care they may or may not be able to provide. And then to say that a person shouldn't have children if they can't afford them, things happen in life! Life throws us unexpected cards! A person who was once able to give their child/ dog the best life can lose everything in an instant! God forbid my mom didn't have me because she was 18 and pregnant and too young to take care of a child! But she somehow managed, she got through all of the good and bad. And I am here! Alive and well and thankful to be a part of this world. Maybe we as people need to be a little more understanding and a little less critical of those who are coming to us for help and advice and remember that no one is perfect. And that some opinions need to be kept quiet. This forum is about chihuahuas not kids. 
It's about all of us voicing our opinions about this breed and trying to absorb as much info and knowledge as we can, while at the same time having the choice to take what we know ourselves and what we've learned from others and form our own way. 

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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

EmilyS said:


> I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
> The health-fanatics have also sent out their statistics to get you to buy their product as well. How can you tell me for certain that you haven't been influenced as I have?
> I strive for a healthy medium between absurdity and moderation. I'm willing to go above and beyond expectation, but this is an all time ridiculous for me.
> 
> ...


I agree every dog is different just like every human is different. What might be good for one might not be right for the other. I could never afford to feed my two hounds and any fosters I might have Ziwi Peak so I feed a high grade kibble and a meal of raw. Now as for natural crap this is where you got my attention. 

This is all from personal experience as I take what I read with a grain of salt. I read and read and read as it makes me think and you never know when you might need to try something out but being from a scientific background I like facts. 

Fact- Being an ex Vet Tech and from growing up around Vets I was taught Vaccines protect your kids from diseases so always vaccinate your pet. I did this for many years now Huly caught FVR (feline herpes) from the FVRCP vaccine. 

Fact- When Huly caught the disease the vet only treated the symptoms (Allergy meds and antibiotics) but never tried to build his immune system to help him fight the virus. A holistic nutritionist is the one who helped Huly by an all natural diet and Olive Leaf. Olive Leaf stops the herpes virus from attacking. Huly now gets sick maybe once a year vs. every month. 

Fact- Since going more holistic over the last 5 years and even to raw this last year or so I have a 16 year old Basset Hound which acts like she is 2 who has gone from almost all white to getting her color back, eyes clearer etc. She has also only had one issue (growth in between toes) other than her check up and guess what my holistic/traditional Vet cured it with in 10 days LOCAL RAW HONEY. There is photo proof here if you look as I posted a thread tracking it. Oh and a UTI that a week of antibiotics, yogurt and cranberry took care of. 

If I can treat a situation all natural or with diet, I am all over it! I feel that yeah I might pay a little more for quality food but I save it in Vet bills. Here is a prime example:

Huly (My health case)

Before Quality diet and litter etc
Supplies- $50 a month
Vet Bills- $200-300 a month

After Holistic Diet
Supplies- $75-100 a month 
Vet Bills- $0 a month


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## EmilyS (Feb 26, 2014)

Your facts again are personal experiences. I can counter all of those personal experiences with other people's experiences with Beneful, Iams and other crappy foods, and their customer's "I've never had a problem" statements. Being a vet tech is impressive, I admit it, but what you just told me ACTUALLY makes your case an exception, not an averaged account. 

Also, dogs did NOT evolve to eat dehydrated raw food, hence my skepticism of "this is what they were meant to eat" statement. Dogs evolved to hunt and kill prey, chew on freshly killed carcases, wild berries etc, and generally live in what we would consider dumps. Chihuahuas evolved from the smaller scavenger species, so they would be eating decomposing corpses left behind by larger predators. Sounds yummy eh? No, dehydrated raw food is not "closer". Nothing is close to that, why? We've bred out the scavenging, the hunting, and anyone who looks up the history of their dogs way of life would see that yes, we've domesticated these animals, and bred them to be healthier on the diets that we provide them. 

I am NOT putting a price on my dogs life. I hate that everyone immediately assumes "budget" = "bad". Let me phrase this in another way. 
Consider what YOU eat. 
It probably isn't the healthiest possible food out there. Meaning: you are not always eating the best of the best. I admit immediately that our immune systems are better than a small dogs, however let's assume that like dog kibble, what we eat is healthy enough that "on average" it doesn't make us ill. This average is about $100/m of groceries per person, add another $50 for every other person. 

I know someone who ONLY buys what magazines tell him is the BEST food. On top of that, he only eats fresh meat, fruits, and veggies, no by-products or processed food because he eats the caveman diet. 
He spends $450 a month on groceries just for himself. That is $5,400 per year on groceries. Let's add another $225 per person in the household. Assuming you live with at least one other person, your total is now $8,100. 

Now why aren't you eating this amazing ultra healthy diet? You can afford it, and according to the companies that sell you these amazing diet plans, you'll live longer and it's more natural. 
Because really, you don't need the best of the best to live a long and happy life. You need quality food that is healthy for your body, and you can find that in kibble, JUST AS MUCH as you can find it in raw. 

I'm not putting a dollar sign on my pet's life at all! I'm just not frivolously throwing my money into the corporate toilet. I think it's awful that people make those kinds of judgments about a dog owner, and that because they spend more than others that means that they love more. Shame on those people and all who think like them.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I did not say dogs had evolved to eat dehydrated raw. I said that dehydrated raw is closer to a dogs natural diet than kibble.
I feed prey model raw, as close as you can get to a natural diet.
While I firmly believe this is the best way to feed, I also accept that not everyone has the time or inclination to create their dogs diet from scratch.
I don't see the link between what we chose to eat and what we feed our pets. We have free will, they are obliged to eat what we provide. We have a responsibility to feed them well.
Poor nutrition in both dogs and humans leads to reduced lifespan, cancers etc The rise in kibble has seen a huge rise in a range of diseases that kill our dogs, as well as obesity, allergies and dental disease. An average sized dog can indeed cope with adequate nutrition, dogs are very adaptable creatures. If 'adequate' is good enough for you, fine. Most of us with small dogs realise that their tiny bodies require good nutrition. They eat so little that there isn't room for rubbish and fillers.
Incidentally, my DIY raw diet actually works out cheaper than a premium kibble. 
I don't think a quality kibble is the worst thing to feed your dog, but there are better options.


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

EmilyS said:


> Your facts again are personal experiences. I can counter all of those personal experiences with other people's experiences with Beneful, Iams and other crappy foods, and their customer's "I've never had a problem" statements. Being a vet tech is impressive, I admit it, but what you just told me ACTUALLY makes your case an exception, not an averaged account.
> 
> Also, dogs did NOT evolve to eat dehydrated raw food, hence my skepticism of "this is what they were meant to eat" statement. Dogs evolved to hunt and kill prey, chew on freshly killed carcases, wild berries etc, and generally live in what we would consider dumps. Chihuahuas evolved from the smaller scavenger species, so they would be eating decomposing corpses left behind by larger predators. Sounds yummy eh? No, dehydrated raw food is not "closer". Nothing is close to that, why? We've bred out the scavenging, the hunting, and anyone who looks up the history of their dogs way of life would see that yes, we've domesticated these animals, and bred them to be healthier on the diets that we provide them.
> 
> ...


Actually I do eat healthier than most. My father is a heart patient his body can not process fat. He can not even have olive oil heated as it turns into a saturated fat. 

I read label after label after label as I have had to most of my life. I know what to look for and what to avoid. If we do not do that my dad would not be here today. 

I do not think the amout of $$ you spend on your chi determines how much you love him or her. Like I said above every dog is different one might do ok on a low grade food while another might not. To be a good owner you must be informed of all options and then decide what is best for your pet. If you take the cheap way out just because you have the money but do not want to spend it and your chi is allergic to it and it causes multiple issues then you better believe I will not consider you a good owner. If your dog gets injured and you do not want to take him to the vet because you would rather have a new shirt guess what you are not a good owner. 

Now for a cost factor there is not much difference in price between a low quality food and a high quality food. Why would you not feed your pet a higher quality food if it is same price or cheaper?

Examples-
Beneful 28lb bag- $25
Science Diet 18lb bag- $32
Fromm- 15Lb bag- $21
Primal 14oz- $22 (you feed less of this since freeze dried this bag would last a month easy)
Raw- Oma's pride $5 for 5lbs so $25 for 25lbs

Iams does HORRIBLE testing on animals! I am against animal testing and do not buy any products (even for myself) that are tested on animals. I can not support a company that does that!


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## EmilyS (Feb 26, 2014)

How does a 14 ounce primal bag last more than a month? 
1 oz = 4 nugget = 155 calories for the duck recipe, according to their website. 
a 14oz bag in Canada costs $31. 
A normal 5 lb chi would need about 5-6 nuggets per day, lets say closer to 5 because they often suggest too much. There are 56 nuggets (average) in a 14 oz bag. This bag would last about 11 days. 

So 3 bags a month at $31 each, is $93 a month, x 12 months is $1116, and that doesn't include shipping. Not even worth a second glance to me. And if one bag lasts a month, then I suspect you have a 3lb, inactive chi or you feed too many treats/table scraps. 

Oma's pride is unavailable in Canada, and that is ridiculously cheap for a raw food. I'd question the ingredients. 

Fromm is available in Canada at $80 per 30 lb bag. 

I wouldn't touch Fromm, Beneful or Science diet with 30 foot pole, they don't make the 5 star dog food rating which I personally prefer. Fromm also has cheese and rice in it, as well as millet, gross. 

Maybe raw and dehydrated diets are cheaper in the US, where the pet industry is super prevalent, but up in Canada all that stuff nearly doubles in price. 

The more cost effective ones are Honest Kitchen, and the best one goes for $130 for a 10lb (40lbs of food) box, and that lasts about 170 days. Even then, I've seen a few recalls lately for Honest Kitchen, which makes me feel like they aren't being so honest. 

I looked at the other kibble companies that I prefer and they never had a recall. Then I look at all the recalls for raw/freeze dried products and it shocks me.


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

There were soooooooo many recalls for almost every kibble out there...


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## KrystalLeigh (Aug 17, 2011)

pigeonsheep said:


> personally to me its very convenient and well worth the money. the kids think that the wellness core dry that we have is just okay...its tolerable...but give a dog a sniff of primal and they go absolutely NUTS! u dont have to feed it for every meal, u can rotate  get a small bag and give it a try! :] ive turned a lot of people into primal lovers here and on fb lol  no dog has turned it down yet!



I can vouch that this is true! I put Odie's primal in some water (like I do with her kibble) and she had taken off with it before it could soak! She thought I accidentally put a treat down I think. Haha 


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## zellko (Jul 3, 2013)

Welcome! Even here in high cost of everything land there are spay and neuter clinics. I have a friend in the business who recommended one and I was very satisfied. They were very familiar with chis' special needs. I showed up with honey and they told me they routinely give all chis Nutrical (hope I got the name right) I was quoted $400 other places and his neuter cost $80! They took every precaution I'd read about. Petsmart has occasional $20 clinics.


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

Ummmm just fyi fromm does make 5 star food and it's an amazing food. There are currently 5 grain free varieties. 

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## Bandit (Jan 4, 2012)

Zorana1125 said:


> Ummmm just fyi fromm does make 5 star food and it's an amazing food. There are currently 5 grain free varieties.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you for posting this. This is what I feed - and having someone else post it is nice.

I started feeding this to my cats too, when I found them eating the dog food. Since I have, I have noticed that my cat that was always vomiting has stopped. I also changed to non-clay litter about a year before. I would not go back to the other stuff for anything.


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

Mine only get a nugget a day in the morning and raw in the evening so it last forever here. I think our prices are cheaper than Canada. 

I bet Orijen is cheaper for y'all though since made in Canada.

So what do you feed Emily? You have me confused saying you don't believe in holistic expensive foods yet you feed a 5 star food? What is it?


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## pigeonsheep (Nov 8, 2008)

In her other thread she mentioned she was going to be feeding,blue buffalo I think. She doesn't even have a chi yet am I right? Emily do you even own a dog?


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## zellko (Jul 3, 2013)

Please, please double check your info on animal testing. PETA LOVES to put out inflammatory false information. Or, if 1 animal is abused, they will say that the entire industry is abusive. I feed the best I can afford and it's 5 star, but it is kibble. I would love to feed Stella and Cheweys, but it's just out of the question. I sprinkle it over his food so he can enjoy the taste. While nutrition is important, it isn't the only factor in an animal's health. I had a horse that lived to be 35 (that's like 130 in people years) on Purina, of all things!


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

zellko said:


> Please, please double check your info on animal testing. PETA LOVES to put out inflammatory false information. Or, if 1 animal is abused, they will say that the entire industry is abusive. I feed the best I can afford and it's 5 star, but it is kibble. I would love to feed Stella and Cheweys, but it's just out of the question. I sprinkle it over his food so he can enjoy the taste. While nutrition is important, it isn't the only factor in an animal's health. I had a horse that lived to be 35 (that's like 130 in people years) on Purina, of all things!


I am not a fan of PETA either I don't trust them to be honest. I read every human product to see what it says etc. The article about Iams etc is not PETA either or I might have ingnored it. 

You are doing good Zelko you are researching and doing the best for your baby.


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## KrystalLeigh (Aug 17, 2011)

Have you used the feeding calculator on primal's site? It looks like you would have to have a pretty big chi to feed 5-6 nuggets a day. 



EmilyS said:


> How does a 14 ounce primal bag last more than a month?
> 
> 1 oz = 4 nugget = 155 calories for the duck recipe, according to their website.
> 
> ...






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## EmilyS (Feb 26, 2014)

I do not have a chi yet. I am doing research. I have had a dog before however.
I DO believe in holistic and natural diets, I DO NOT believe that you need to spend an arm and a leg to get it, or that it makes your dog any healthier. 
So I simply won't, lol. I believe that you can feed premium 5 star kibble and have a dog just as healthy as a dog on all this raw/dehydrated junk. Just like you can raise a child on filtered tap water instead of 100% bottled water and still have a child as healthy (maybe even healthier!) as the one on bottled water. 

The average 5 lb chi apparently needs around 200 calories a day according to the dog food advisor and my other sources, so yeah, 4-5 nuggets a day. According to primal dog food calculator, the recommend only 100 calories a day, which I REALLY don't agree with. Every single vet, breeder and chi-owner I've talked to says that they feed about 200-250 calories per day (they have larger 6-8 lb healthy chi or chi mixes). I refuse to take a pet food company's advice about food intake. Especially a company that only recently took a foothold in the market. 

The only reason I don't mind using the dog food calculator from the dog food advisor site is because it is congruent with most of the other information I've gathered. 

*shrug* to each their own. I personally think that dehydrated/raw food isn't worth it. I think its the equivalent of bottling water in a pretty package and selling it for 3x as much as its worth.

Edit: 
Also, research shows that raw pet food is highly likely to contain Salmonella or Listeria monocytogenes. Out of 196 raw diets tested, 15 tested positive for salmonella, and 32 for Listeria. 
Out of 120 dry dog foods, NONE of them tested positive for anything.

To be fair, I believe that this study was probably biased against raw food. 

Get the Facts! Raw Pet Food Diets can be Dangerous to You and Your Pet


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## Chiluv04 (Dec 19, 2013)

Do you have any dogs? 


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

If you want to feed kibble, then feed kibble, no-one here is trying to persuade you otherwise. just make sure it is a good one.
I do take offence at you calling raw/dehydrated diets 'junk'. 
Look at how kibble is produced, even the top quality 5 star ones. It is, by its nature, a very heavily processed product. It has to be to stay fresh in a sack for months at a time.
Compare that to meat that has been ground, mixed with some veg and frozen or dehydrated.
Which is the closest to real food? Which is 'junk'? 
One has retained all the nutrition originally found in the ingredients, the other has had the goodness cooked out and then added back in in artificial form.
A really good 5 star kibble is far superior nutritionally to a low grade, cereal based supermarket brand, but they are both mass produced convenience foods, designed to make a dog owners life easier.
There are many, many dogs that have issues with these diets and whose symptoms can be alleviated simply by switching to a less processed, more natural diet. This is a fact, whether you choose to believe it or not.
Quite how you can calculate the calorie requirements for a dog that doesn't even exist yet is beyond me. Each dog is an individual, I recommend you feed according to your dogs needs, ie condition and activity level, rather than going by a chart.


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## EmilyS (Feb 26, 2014)

I have no dogs, my golden retriever died two months ago. 

The idea that dehydrated dog food is junk is my own opinion. I'm sorry that you feel offended, but I'm not sorry for saying it. I simply just don't believe that it's better for dogs, or good at all for them.


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## Rolo n Buttons (Sep 22, 2012)

Cant advise on all of that but harness yes and crate most definately. Hate to think what I would come home to if I didnt crate mine while Im out. As soon as my backs turned they will instantly start hunting for naughty things to do. Its like "great.......shes out the way.....go for it!" Imps

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