# 2nd vaccination reaction?



## Sunnie (Dec 19, 2011)

Hi everyone!

My Cali got her 2nd set of shots last Sat. at 13.5 weeks. Typical initial reaction; very sleepy, and squealing when you tried to pick her up the first 24 hours. That's gone. Also, though, almost immediately, was we noticed she started shedding. It has continued. Didn't notice it before. It's possible she's just 'that age', or it could be stress reaction. We've noticed her 'forehead' fur looks a little thin now. Nothing bad, but definitely less fur than before.

Been reading nonstop here; lots of great info. Including the Science Diet scam...will be heading to the store tonight after work to get Wellness to start to move her over to.

That said, I am an OCD Virgo, so I tend to overreact...she's not scratching, she's playful, everything else seems fine. Should I just assume it's a stress reaction to her body handling the vaccinations, and just keep an eye on her to make sure nothing gets worse? We gave her a dose of benedryl last night; what pinkness there was to the forehead is now pretty much gone, but I didn't re-dose her.

Just wondering your opinion. Thanks!


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## Sunnie (Dec 19, 2011)

Well, I ended up taking her to the vet after work. They did a scraping, and it's Demodex mange. Probably the stress of her vaccination Saturday, or her body dealing internally with it....weakened her immune system enough to allow the mites to start to take over. 

The vet, because of her age and small size (2.6 lb.) didn't want to treat too aggressively, yet. Nothing internal/systemic. She's given us Pyoben Gel to apply twice a day to affected spots.

Husband is at Petsmart getting her Wellness dog food, and finding (hopefully) a small enough donut for her head (vet suggested cat/kitten size) so she doesn't try to get at the treatment on her back leg.

ugh.

This sucks. At least it's not bothering her, although I imagine the stress of the scraping/vet visit will weaken her immune even further. 

At least she's playful and happy. And still absolutely adorable.


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## Jerry'sMom (May 5, 2009)

It sounds as if you and your Vet have it all sorted out. I hope Cali feels better soon 
Welcome to Chi Ppl!


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## Gingersmom (Mar 12, 2009)

Sunnie said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> My Cali got her 2nd set of shots last Sat. at 13.5 weeks. Typical initial reaction; very sleepy, and squealing when you tried to pick her up the first 24 hours. That's gone. Also, though, almost immediately, was we noticed she started shedding. It has continued. Didn't notice it before. It's possible she's just 'that age', or it could be stress reaction. We've noticed her 'forehead' fur looks a little thin now. Nothing bad, but definitely less fur than before.
> 
> ...


That's CDO..because you truly have to have everything in order..

My girls didn't do well on Wellness(loss too much weight, throwing up and coats were dull), doing much better on Innova(weight almost back to right, no throwing up and shiny coats again).


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## Sunnie (Dec 19, 2011)

hahaha-I forgot about that joke about CDO. I finally learned how to SPELL dyslexia remembering that after the d, the ysl are in reverse alphabetical order. 

Now you have me worried about Wellness. It was rated higher than Innova, so that's why I thought to try it. Well, she had a teaspoon at dinner, and will continue to, until it causes a problem.

Hubby is struggling to find the inflatable collar; he's off to another pet store now.

The worst part about this is it feels kind of like a scourge; don't feel like we can tell people what she has, because they assume the worst kind of mange, you know? We'll just say she's temporarily balding due to the stress of the vaccine, and we are treating it. Not a lie, actually. 

And thanks for the welcome. 

funny, I've had many dogs over the course of my 60 years, and 2 now I love, but I NEVER fell so hard, so fast, for a puppy as I have this little stinker.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

We have our large breed puppy on Taste of the Wild Puppy Wild Prairie. You know, it is made by Diamond. I don't entirely trust the company, but they have a decent track record for the running and the price is right. The kibble in the puppy food is the perfect size for a chihuahua. 

If you want foods you can trust, get your pen out, here is the list:

Fromm Family Foods - Four Star Nutritionals, in either grainfree or grain inclusive formulas.
Four-Star Gourmet Dog & Cat Food with Fresh Fruit & Vegetables - Fromm Family Foods

Champion Pet Foods - Acana Grainfree or Orijen (IMO too much protein for a chi that is a non-working couch dog for the most part lol).
Champion Petfoods | Home

Ziwipeak - this is a dehydrated Raw food. It seems VERY expensive and, yes, it is pricier than a dry food, but a 2.2 lb bag (around $25-$28) will last a 4-6 lb chi around a month and a half. So, if it meant giving up a coffee a few times a month or me not going to a movie, I would do that so my dog could eat the best.
Natural Range Of Premium Pet-food Products - Ziwipeak - Natural New Zealand Pet Nutrition
(Best place to buy seems to be Petflow.com FWIW)

The Honest Kitchen - this is another dehydrated raw food that is a lot of 'fun' to feed, you can add tons of things in, like chopped up raw or cooked meat, ground meat (raw or cooked), yogurt, cottage cheese, scrambled egg, etc. They have grainfree and grain inclusive formulas. A 4 lb box makes about 16 lbs of fresh food so don't let sticker shock convince you not to feed this food. A 4 lb box lasts a lonnnng time if you are just feeding one dog and adding stuff in. I recommend the Embark, Keen and Love formulas.
All Natural Dog Food | Dehydrated Raw Dog Food | Like Homemade Pet Food


Stella & Chewy's - dehydrated or frozen raw foods. These come in either dry little patties that seem to resemble treats to the dogs and they LOVE them, or, some local specialty stores carry it frozen.
Stella & Chewy's - Home



Finally, no matter what you feed, I recommend giving a fish oil supplement 5ish times a week (we get the stuff at walmart that is in 1000mg capsules and squirt it on our dog's food - this way it is human grade and 100x cheaper than anything marketed for dogs), and something like Nupro Joint Silver (can get it off Amazon) or The Missing Link supplement on a daily basis. I also give glucosamine treats every day, around 100mg per dog equivalent.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

And no, you aren't over-reacting about the shot. She doesn't need any more puppy vacs I would suspect, and since she had a reaction, getting a titer to see if immunity is present or not, should be sufficient so she does not have to have another vac. Your vet will try to push it, because vets are idiots about vaccinations...but it could be incredibly harmful to your little one so I would do what is best for your dog, not what your vet demands just to pacify them. If my puppies have ANY reaction to ANY vac, I titer 3-4 weeks later and have never had to give another vac; they were already immune.


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## Sunnie (Dec 19, 2011)

but I thought they needed to get through the 3rd shot or have the last shot after the age of 14 weeks. After that, it was potentially optional; not before. Right or wrong?

Thanks for everything else. Will definitely look into it all, and get her on supplements, but at barely 14 weeks, trying not to throw too much new at her too fast; her little immune system is already whacked.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Sunnie said:


> but I thought they needed to get through the 3rd shot or have the last shot after the age of 14 weeks. After that, it was potentially optional; not before. Right or wrong?
> 
> Thanks for everything else. Will definitely look into it all, and get her on supplements, but at barely 14 weeks, trying not to throw too much new at her too fast; her little immune system is already whacked.


Leah got her last vac a few days shy of 14 weeks - that was the one she had the reaction to, and despite the vet wanting to give another, I said nope! Leah is a show dog and trust me, if any dog were going to get SICK, she would have from being around all those dogs...but she was fine  She will NEVER have another distemper/adenovirus/parvovirus shot in her life. :duckie:

Here is how vaccinations work...you give the first one at around 8 weeks. That is the EARLIEST immunity has been shown to wear off from mom. So, it is a shot in the dark that hopefully the 8 week shot protects the puppy, BUT if any immunity from mom is still present, the shot is basically just poison dumped into your puppy's system that can actually cause their immune system to crash somewhat.

So, you revaccinate at 11-13 weeks, and again, you HOPE that if the puppy's protection from mom has worn off, you catch it as soon as possible and provide immunity.

The 16 week shot is generally unnecessary. Any shot over 12 weeks of age should protect the puppy for life except for in very rare cases. 

Any shot after whichever shot provided immunity is useless - just dumping toxins into the puppy. 

A series of shots is given not to give MORE immunity, but to hopefully provide immunity as soon as possible after puppy has lost it from mom (which GENERALLY is done by 9-10 weeks, sometimes slightly sooner or later). Another shot after immunity has been acquired from a shot is useless and harmful. It does not boost anything.

You can't "boost" immunity, you are either immune, or you are NOT immune. A vaccination will only work properly on a healthy animal - an animal with mange, even losing fur, even an itch - that is not per se, a 'healthy' animal, so you won't want to vaccinate it anyway until it is better. A titer test will let you know if a shot she has already has had, has provided immunity or not. I would do that, any day, over another shot when it seems the last one has caused such stress on her immune system she is now dealing with mange.

If you want to learn more about vaccinations, feel free to visit my website's vaccination page (Knockout Chihuahuas - Vaccinations) to read up on vaccinations as well as watch a 4 part video series by 'the guy' (and vet) that 'makes' the vaccinations and what he has to say about them.

I would guess your puppy has received immunity already from the last shot it had, because it had a reaction.


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## Sunnie (Dec 19, 2011)

thanks. I will ask for the titer test. 

It breaks my heart to see the donut on her, and she is supposed to wear it 2 weeks. She growled and snapped at my husband when he put it on her; she's never done that before. She's growled at either of us once or twice since. I'm so afraid it's going to affect her personality permanently.


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## Sunnie (Dec 19, 2011)

update: I work minutes from Dr. Dodds' office (SO fortunate!) ...have been in email contact with her, and will take Cali for a titer test with her at the 3 week point from this last one.

Cali slept through the night, and other that not being a happy camper when you try to move that donut collar, is acting normally. So far, the Wellness seems well received.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

How lucky are you to live near her office!! Let us know how it goes. I just would hate to see your baby develop some sort of autoimmune disfunction due to more vaccinations at this point. I always encourage people to be very cautious when it comes to them. It is unfortunate that it seems most vets are more interested in lining their pockets from vaccines then protecting the welfare of our babies


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## Sunnie (Dec 19, 2011)

Thanks! At this point, she won't have another vaccine until Dr. Jean gives the green light.

Wondering how this all should affect when she's spayed, too....


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## Sunnie (Dec 19, 2011)

Hi everyone! Cali was holding her own. Not getting any worse, but not getting truly better. She was on prescribed pyoben Gel....and the Vit. E Dr. Jean recommended. She was on Wellness puppy food and Science Diet kibble. You guys here and other research convinced me to go grain-free. I bought some Acana Wild Prairie, and started adding a small amount of that kibble after she ate her Wellness, in lieu of the Science...yesterday. Her spots looked a little pinker, but that seems to come and go. She LOVED the Acana (first food she has loved), and her poop was normal, so I increased it a bit each meal. This morning it was half Wellness, half Acana. Well, within an hour all of her bald spots were the reddest I've ever seen it! Is it possible she's allergic to a grain-free supposed super food? Her poop is still completely normal. Is it the food change that is stressing her immune system again? I'm at a loss! What should I do? She fights me on liquid or chewable pill Benedryl; don't know if she really needs it anyhow. What should I do? I feel awful for causing this decline, but I thought I was doing the right thing switching her to one of the best grain-free kibbles available.


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## Sunnie (Dec 19, 2011)

After one week of Pyobel (sp?) gel and 2 more weeks of Vit. E oil on her bald spots, Cali is improving. No new spots, fur starting to grow back in. It's been 4 weeks since her shot; today we are going for the Parvo-Distemper titer blood work at Dr. Dodds' facility. Hopefully, she's got enough immunity to forego any further shots until the rabies later in the year...


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## CHITheresa (Apr 30, 2011)

Gingersmom said:


> That's CDO..because you truly have to have everything in order..
> 
> My girls didn't do well on Wellness(loss too much weight, throwing up and coats were dull), doing much better on Innova(weight almost back to right, no throwing up and shiny coats again).


Amberleah is on wellness and her coat is bad. And she is starting to throw up. But it might be from human food I gave her. When I took her to U of M i had them look at her coat they said she was born with bad coat. I am giving fish oil now. Maybe I should try Innova, I think my feed store sells it.


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## svdreamer (Feb 20, 2010)

flippedstars said:


> Leah got her last vac a few days shy of 14 weeks - that was the one she had the reaction to, and despite the vet wanting to give another, I said nope! Leah is a show dog and trust me, if any dog were going to get SICK, she would have from being around all those dogs...but she was fine  She will NEVER have another distemper/adenovirus/parvovirus shot in her life. :duckie:
> 
> Here is how vaccinations work...you give the first one at around 8 weeks. That is the EARLIEST immunity has been shown to wear off from mom. So, it is a shot in the dark that hopefully the 8 week shot protects the puppy, BUT if any immunity from mom is still present, the shot is basically just poison dumped into your puppy's system that can actually cause their immune system to crash somewhat.
> 
> ...


You know, I took Babaushka in to get her last puppy shot and had a fight with the vet. She wanted me to come back again to get a booster for her in 3 weeks. I told her that with her age, 17 weeks, she for sure needed just the one. She told me they need at least two to build up the immunity. I said no they don't, you are just trying to hit it as close to when they mom's antibodies stop working. She conceded the point, but continued to push another shot but, sorry, no dice. I was also was told to bring Sherman back for a booster in 3 weeks and he's 6 months old and I know his mom's antibodies are already out of his system. I tried to educate her, but she was a young, just out of vet school, vet and all gung ho. The older vets listen to me much better. lol


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## svdreamer (Feb 20, 2010)

You said the red, bald spots were from mange. Diet won't really affect that. I think you changing her diet is a good thing, but seperate from her mange. I know curing mange takes a long time. Give the meds as you are doing, there will be a end to this hopefully soon. Best of luck.


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## bean (May 18, 2011)

We have just had the worst 24 hours in our house. Our new addition Sam went in for his 2 nd vac at 2.12 pounds and 14 weeks and before we made it home we were on our way back to the vet. His whole body turned purple and bumpy. The vet took him in the back room to check his vitals and gave him a shot of benedryl and a steriod. We spent the whole night watching him and fretting. He vomitted twice and this morning we still had to give him more benedryl( he had bumps on his head).He seems to be a bit more perky and the vet said we could bring him in at the end of the day if we were still concerned.

Before this I phoned around to see if anyone would lower the dose. Frodo our other reaction case was our concern. Not one vet in our town would go by weight . Now with Sams reaction we are terrified to do this again. We will be sitting down with our vet and having a long conversation.


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## AMKuska (Sep 26, 2010)

I just have my dogs Titer tested anymore. It's a lot less stressful


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## Sunnie (Dec 19, 2011)

They couldn't titer Cali; she wouldn't stay still enough to do it, and I refused to have her sedated to draw the blood. The vet DID do 'the smallest dose' possible of distempter-parvo, and said that (at 17 wk.) would be the last she would need. He said he always does smaller doses for chi's...(this is not my normal vet. It's the vet Dr. Dodds' recommended to draw the blood for the titer test.)

I'm so sorry you are having to go through that with your baby.


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## Sunnie (Dec 19, 2011)

p.s. she sailed through this immunization, and it didn't start the demodex back up. phew.


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## pugpillow (Jan 15, 2012)

flippedstars said:


> Leah got her last vac a few days shy of 14 weeks - that was the one she had the reaction to, and despite the vet wanting to give another, I said nope! Leah is a show dog and trust me, if any dog were going to get SICK, she would have from being around all those dogs...but she was fine  She will NEVER have another distemper/adenovirus/parvovirus shot in her life. :duckie:
> 
> Here is how vaccinations work...you give the first one at around 8 weeks. That is the EARLIEST immunity has been shown to wear off from mom. So, it is a shot in the dark that hopefully the 8 week shot protects the puppy, BUT if any immunity from mom is still present, the shot is basically just poison dumped into your puppy's system that can actually cause their immune system to crash somewhat.
> 
> ...


I wish there was a Like button because this is bang on! Great explanation.


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## Sunnie (Dec 19, 2011)

re demodex mange, diet very much plays a part in it... more and more, it's believed that switching to a grain free diet helps, because the mites causing the mange feast on yeast. Grain-free diet all but starves them (the mite causing the mange.) Also, dogs tend to be allergic to grain, and an allergy can set them up for mange. Finally, stressed dogs get mange. Stress can be from eating crappy food. 

three excellent reasons that diet DO affect mange -the cause of it, and helping speed the cure.


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