# Back from a new vet + a vaccine question



## coco_little_bear (May 30, 2012)

So we just came back from the vet. Poor Rocky has an anal gland infection and has been put on antibiotics. He's been licking and biting his butt so much since yesterday that the vet had to put the cone of shame on him and he's not a happy bunny! 

I've been looking for a good vet for ages and I think I've finally found one! Even the food and treats sold there are great (freeze dried raw treats, etc). None of that science diet/RC crap. The only thing was the yearly vaccinations pushing (but that's expected)... which leads to my question. Basically Lilo only had her puppy vaccinations. Judging by the research I've done, I don't believe in vaccinating every year, but I read that if puppies have their vaccinations done quite young, it's possible for it not to be effective and that some give a booster at one year old for that reason (but then that's it). So that's why I wanted Lilo to have one booster.

Obviously the vet pushed for yearly boosters and even said that due to Lilo having skipped the booster last year, that she usually recommends restarting the vaccination schedule as if she was a puppy! I think that's bs, but she didn't force us though... she gave us the choice of having just one or coming back for a second one soon after we've thought about it... the thing that confused me is she said something about the vaccine being a 'puppy' one, implying that it's a smaller dose than she would normally give an adult dog and that if we don't go back for the second one, it might not be effective. 

*My question is, do you think she's just saying that to scare us into coming back for the second one or is there really such a thing as a less effective 'puppy' dose?*


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

Here is what we do:

BG- 13 week old puppy was tittered. She was above normal so no vaccine. She is now 4 and just received her first Distemper. (breeder had given one dose of puppy shots)

Sonny- 13 week old pup and tittered low. He received a booster. He has never had another only tittered and is 3 years old. (breeder had given one dose of puppy shots)


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## coco_little_bear (May 30, 2012)

Huly said:


> Here is what we do:
> 
> BG- 13 week old puppy was tittered. She was above normal so no vaccine. She is now 4 and just received her first Distemper. (breeder had given one dose of puppy shots)
> 
> Sonny- 13 week old pup and tittered low. He received a booster. He has never had another only tittered and is 3 years old. (breeder had given one dose of puppy shots)


The thing is we can't really do titer tests here. From what I've seen, most vets don't offer that in the UK.

So we had the booster done today just in case, but I'm confused as to whether it was a proper one due to the vet saying it was a 'puppy dose'.


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## LittleBeverly2015 (Jan 26, 2015)

I get really confused with it all and Beverly had a horrible allergic reaction the day we got her rabies and her distemper vaccines. We aren't sure which one caused it and now I am so afraid to get her any vaccines at all.


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## coco_little_bear (May 30, 2012)

LittleBeverly2015 said:


> I get really confused with it all and Beverly had a horrible allergic reaction the day we got her rabies and her distemper vaccines. We aren't sure which one caused it and now I am so afraid to get her any vaccines at all.


Oh no, that's awful. :/ Lilo did screams of death for ages today when she got the vaccine and everyone thought she was just being a drama queen... but now she's just started acting funny. She's shaking, not wanting to move (I had to pick her up and bring her to her food bowl to eat dinner) and she's yelping when we touch her. Poor little thing. I've never had that problem after vaccinations with other dogs, I hope she's not having a reaction.


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

The following is what I read in my Whole Dog Journal and later learned when I studied Dr. Schultz vaccination beliefs and protocol. I'm sure I'll give info you know or don't need, but I hope something helps with your decision. 

A puppy gets its immunity from its mother. There's no way to pin point when that immunity "goes away"; thus, vets came up with the puppy schedule of vaccinations of 3 sets roughly 2-4 weeks apart starting 6-8 weeks, then 10-12 weeks, then 14-16 weeks and finally a one year booster to make certain they are immune because vaccination doesn't always mean immunization. Also, as Christie said immunization doesn't necessarily require vaccination. If the immunities passed from the mother stay with the puppy there may not be a need for vaccination. 

I think those members that work at or have worked at vet clinics will know more, but I don't think there is a puppy dose. The reason I think this is because I have read so often that people have such issue with the fact that the same vaccine dose is used for a chi or an 80 lb dog. Someone else may know if there are different dose amounts or not--I haven't specifically researched that. 

I'm not completely against vaccinations, but I am for the absolute least amount of vaccination necessary. I would probably not give Lilo another one. I would definitely not start the whole puppy protocol over again. I would only get the distemper, parvo, and rabies if you get those where you are, but that's just me.

I have read of home titer kits here in the US. Can you look in to ordering one of those to have shipped to you?


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## coco_little_bear (May 30, 2012)

lulu'smom said:


> The following is what I read in my Whole Dog Journal and later learned when I studied Dr. Schultz vaccination beliefs and protocol. I'm sure I'll give info you know or don't need, but I hope something helps with your decision.
> 
> A puppy gets its immunity from its mother. There's no way to pin point when that immunity "goes away"; thus, vets came up with the puppy schedule of vaccinations of 3 sets roughly 2-4 weeks apart starting 6-8 weeks, then 10-12 weeks, then 14-16 weeks and finally a one year booster to make certain they are immune because vaccination doesn't always mean immunization. Also, as Christie said immunization doesn't necessarily require vaccination. If the immunities passed from the mother stay with the puppy there may not be a need for vaccination.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tina, I've never heard of home titer kits. I'll look into it! And I agree with everything else you said. That's what I read and it's how I feel too. I'm not against vaccinations, but I believe in giving the least possible too. 

I found it odd that the vet wanted us to restart the puppy schedule! I refused. I was also suspicious of the 'puppy' dose for exactly that reason, the fact that people complain about the same dose being given to all dogs regardless of their size. That's why I wanted to know what people think... I feel like this is just a tactic to get us to go back for a second shot. :/


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

coco_little_bear said:


> Thanks Tina, I've never heard of home titer kits. I'll look into it! And I agree with everything else you said. That's what I read and it's how I feel too. I'm not against vaccinations, but I believe in giving the least possible too.
> 
> I found it odd that the vet wanted us to restart the puppy schedule! I refused. I was also suspicious of the 'puppy' dose for exactly that reason, the fact that people complain about the same dose being given to all dogs regardless of their size. That's why I wanted to know what people think... I feel like this is just a tactic to get us to go back for a second shot. :/


You're welcome! Also, if the symptoms you mentioned continue you could consider a dose of Benadryl (antihistamine). The only thing that throws me off is the tenderness/shaking--I don't think an antihistamine will help with that. So sorry it hurt her!!


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## Pure love (Sep 13, 2014)

I hope your little rocky starts feeling better. I really get confused with the whole vaccine series too. Chloe didn't have a nice experience with her first shots. Even though I love my vet, even she thought Chloe might be one of those dogs that just shouldn't receive puppy shots. She cried so loud you could hear her through the entire office. The dr came into the exam room very nervous. She told me Chloe dropped, peed, started shaking and drooling when she got the shot. She said no puppy had never done that to her before. She had me stay for 30 extra minutes to make sure Chloe wasn't having facial swelling or trouble breathing. About an hour later I returned to the office because Chloe wouldn't stop crying when we were home. I wasn't even touching her. She would just let out little screams. I took her back and she had to give her pain meds. 
I will only do yearly exams and 3 yr rabies vaccine. That's it.


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## coco_little_bear (May 30, 2012)

lulu'smom said:


> You're welcome! Also, if the symptoms you mentioned continue you could consider a dose of Benadryl (antihistamine). The only thing that throws me off is the tenderness/shaking--I don't think an antihistamine will help with that. So sorry it hurt her!!


Her yelping was so awful after the shot, even the vet seemed shocked because she just wouldn't stop.  My boyfriend had to carry her to the park to do her business after dinner and carry her back home, but she's asleep on my lap right now and seems a bit better. Poor thing. :/


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

I don't vac mine after the puppy vacs,no boosters but that's me.You can get titers done in the UK the vet up the road from me does them,i'm near High Wycombe bucks if you are interested and not too far from you pm me and i'll let you know the vet. Maybe google it and there maybe one near you.


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## coco_little_bear (May 30, 2012)

Pure love said:


> I hope your little rocky starts feeling better. I really get confused with the whole vaccine series too. Chloe didn't have a nice experience with her first shots. Even though I love my vet, even she thought Chloe might be one of those dogs that just shouldn't receive puppy shots. She cried so loud you could hear her through the entire office. The dr came into the exam room very nervous. She told me Chloe dropped, peed, started shaking and drooling when she got the shot. She said no puppy had never done that to her before. She had me stay for 30 extra minutes to make sure Chloe wasn't having facial swelling or trouble breathing. About an hour later I returned to the office because Chloe wouldn't stop crying when we were home. I wasn't even touching her. She would just let out little screams. I took her back and she had to give her pain meds.
> I will only do yearly exams and 3 yr rabies vaccine. That's it.


Oh gosh that's awful, poor little thing! Lilo was not as bad as that, but she yelped so loud non stop after, we couldn't get her to stop. She's in pain right now, but she seems a bit better than earlier. It's so sad to see both of them suffering right now... I'm taking care of Lilo on my lap while my boyfriend is taking care of Rocky! lol


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## coco_little_bear (May 30, 2012)

michele said:


> I don't vac mine after the puppy vacs,no boosters but that's me.You can get titers done in the UK the vet up the road from me does them,i'm near High Wycombe bucks if you are interested and not too far from you pm me and i'll let you know the vet. Maybe google it and there maybe one near you.


Thanks Michele. I have heard that some vets do titer here, but it seems to be rare and so expensive. After this booster I'm not getting anymore done, that's it. Especially considering how bad Lilo is feeling right now. :/


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

So sorry Pure Love to know how poorly Chloe did.

Camille, keep us informed on how Lilo is.


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

Hope little Rocky feels better!! 
I'm sorry to hear you guys don't titer there!! I would absolutely not restart the puppy shots, that's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I don't believe there are puppy doses, in fact, the 1 year rabies vaccine is the exact same as the 3 year vaccine, it's just labeled differently. Now that Lilo had her booster, she should be set for a while, if not for life. Lola had her puppy shots and then a titer at her 1 year check up. Of course, her titer was strong at that time for parvo and distemper. Then 3 years later we redrew the titer again and her parvo was High but distemper was almost undetectable so we just gave her a distemper shot (not a 5 in 1 or a 7 in 1). She will be due for another titer next year (we do them every 3 years). They have changed the veterinary guidelines here to every 3 Years and STILL there are vets to push for annual vaccines, it's very sad!!


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

Pure love said:


> I hope your little rocky starts feeling better. I really get confused with the whole vaccine series too. Chloe didn't have a nice experience with her first shots. Even though I love my vet, even she thought Chloe might be one of those dogs that just shouldn't receive puppy shots. She cried so loud you could hear her through the entire office. The dr came into the exam room very nervous. She told me Chloe dropped, peed, started shaking and drooling when she got the shot. She said no puppy had never done that to her before. She had me stay for 30 extra minutes to make sure Chloe wasn't having facial swelling or trouble breathing. About an hour later I returned to the office because Chloe wouldn't stop crying when we were home. I wasn't even touching her. She would just let out little screams. I took her back and she had to give her pain meds.
> I will only do yearly exams and 3 yr rabies vaccine. That's it.


Omg what a horrific experience for you both! I would never stick her again, that's for sure!! Just titer her 3 years after her last shots and she should be good to go. I hate the rabies vaccine too but I lost my first chi to autoimmune disease induced by vaccines. It's just too much for them sometimes, especially with the all-in-one shots. I go to a special vet for the single and bivalent vaccines so they can get only the necessary vaccines and not all that other junk.


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## coco_little_bear (May 30, 2012)

Zorana1125 said:


> Hope little Rocky feels better!!
> I'm sorry to hear you guys don't titer there!! I would absolutely not restart the puppy shots, that's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I don't believe there are puppy doses, in fact, the 1 year rabies vaccine is the exact same as the 3 year vaccine, it's just labeled differently. Now that Lilo had her booster, she should be set for a while, if not for life. Lola had her puppy shots and then a titer at her 1 year check up. Of course, her titer was strong at that time for parvo and distemper. Then 3 years later we redrew the titer again and her parvo was High but distemper was almost undetectable so we just gave her a distemper shot (not a 5 in 1 or a 7 in 1). She will be due for another titer next year (we do them every 3 years). They have changed the veterinary guidelines here to every 3 Years and STILL there are vets to push for annual vaccines, it's very sad!!


That's exactly what I thought too! I immediately refused to redo the puppy schedule... and judging by her response, I could tell she gets a lot of people against yearly boosters. I guess the more people are becoming aware of over vaccination being bad, the more vets are getting desperate to find ways of convincing people...  I've read a lot about vaccinations and immunity and I agree with you, she will probably be ok for life after this. Same for Rocky. Unless I can get titers done and give single shots like you do, if needed, I think that's it for vaccinations.


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## coco_little_bear (May 30, 2012)

lulu'smom said:


> So sorry Pure Love to know how poorly Chloe did.
> 
> Camille, keep us informed on how Lilo is.


I think she's feeling better this morning. She spent the whole night cuddled up to me and hasn't moved much since yesterday. She still seems a bit tired/lethargic, but she doesn't yelp when touched anymore. I got scared yesterday evening because on top of the yelping, she was breathing funny at some point and getting these weird hiccups, but thankfully that stopped. I've never had a dog react like this after a vaccine.


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## Lisa T (Sep 3, 2010)

Hi Camille, poor Rocky and Lilo, hope they are both feeling a bit better this morning. I agree with the others, as far as I am aware there is no such thing as a "puppy" vaccine and you have done the right thing to refuse it. After Lilo's reaction to the booster if I were you I don't think I would bother again. Bella had her initial "puppy" Vaccs and a booster at twelve months and we haven't had anything else given since and she was five last week. I sometimes worry about her immunity and think i'l get her titered but to be honest she's so scared at the vets that the thought of her having to have blood drawn freaks me out. Whether this is irresponsible of me I don't know. I just don't want to put her under any stress. I like the sound of a home titer test, I might look into that. I hope you don't have any more problems with your pups and they both feel a lot better soon. xx


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## coco_little_bear (May 30, 2012)

Lisa T said:


> Hi Camille, poor Rocky and Lilo, hope they are both feeling a bit better this morning. I agree with the others, as far as I am aware there is no such thing as a "puppy" vaccine and you have done the right thing to refuse it. After Lilo's reaction to the booster if I were you I don't think I would bother again. Bella had her initial "puppy" Vaccs and a booster at twelve months and we haven't had anything else given since and she was five last week. I sometimes worry about her immunity and think i'l get her titered but to be honest she's so scared at the vets that the thought of her having to have blood drawn freaks me out. Whether this is irresponsible of me I don't know. I just don't want to put her under any stress. I like the sound of a home titer test, I might look into that. I hope you don't have any more problems with your pups and they both feel a lot better soon. xx


Thanks Lisa! Lilo is feeling better. I had to carry her outside after breakfast, but she's ok now, though not as energetic as usual. Poor Rocky is so miserable. I tried to take his cone off, but he instantly tried to lick his very sore butt. So it's back on and he's looking at me like I'm mean. lol I hope the infection goes away quickly! 

Poor Bella! Mine used to be good at the vet, but after this they were both scared. Let's just say Rocky did NOT like the rectal exam and I can't blame him. lol From everything I've read about vaccines and immunity, tbh they shouldn't need more so I don't think you're being irresponsible. From what I read even low titer results are not necessarily a sign of low immunity, it could just be that the dog hasn't been exposed to the illness lately. I know what you mean though... we just want our dogs safe and it's hard when there's so much conflicting info.


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

coco_little_bear said:


> I think she's feeling better this morning. She spent the whole night cuddled up to me and hasn't moved much since yesterday. She still seems a bit tired/lethargic, but she doesn't yelp when touched anymore. I got scared yesterday evening because on top of the yelping, she was breathing funny at some point and getting these weird hiccups, but thankfully that stopped. I've never had a dog react like this after a vaccine.


So glad she seems to be better. I really hope and pray she keeps getting better with no set backs! From what I have read, all of those can be reactions within the first 24 hours after a vaccination but shouldn't last much longer than 24 hours. Vaccinations are really tough on them.


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

Another example is look at BG and what I am going through with the Rabies vaccine. Her reaction did not show for 2 years (lump at injection site). It is horrible and the State of VA is going to be miserable after 3 years of my annoying them.


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## Pure love (Sep 13, 2014)

I'm happy LILO and rocky are doing better. It can be hard and a bit confusing with the vaccines but you just have to follow your instinct as a mom. No one else knows your chi better than u do. So stick to your guns and don't let the vet make you change your mind. Good luck :thumbup:


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## Pure love (Sep 13, 2014)

Zorana1125 said:


> Omg what a horrific experience for you both! I would never stick her again, that's for sure!! Just titer her 3 years after her last shots and she should be good to go. I hate the rabies vaccine too but I lost my first chi to autoimmune disease induced by vaccines. It's just too much for them sometimes, especially with the all-in-one shots. I go to a special vet for the single and bivalent vaccines so they can get only the necessary vaccines and not all that other junk.


I know, I was so scared for us both. She was the size of my hand and I felt so helpless not being able to help her. My vet was very sympathetic. to complete Chloe's puppy vaccines she would premed with Benadryl and pain meds. She also used the tiniest needle available for the injection. The vet would also have me stay for an extra 30 minutes and would call me that night to see how her patient was doing. 
Now Lincoln has had the 3yr vaccine for rabies, and I only did it coz I thought it was mandatory. 
I'm sorry you lost your chi.


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## coco_little_bear (May 30, 2012)

lulu'smom said:


> So glad she seems to be better. I really hope and pray she keeps getting better with no set backs! From what I have read, all of those can be reactions within the first 24 hours after a vaccination but shouldn't last much longer than 24 hours. Vaccinations are really tough on them.


She's back to normal now thankfully.  But I'm definitely not giving her the second one! 



Huly said:


> Another example is look at BG and what I am going through with the Rabies vaccine. Her reaction did not show for 2 years (lump at injection site). It is horrible and the State of VA is going to be miserable after 3 years of my annoying them.


Oh yeah I read your threads about this. That's awful, I'm so glad the rabies vaccine is not compulsory here. I hope you get somewhere with your complaints.



Pure love said:


> I'm happy LILO and rocky are doing better. It can be hard and a bit confusing with the vaccines but you just have to follow your instinct as a mom. No one else knows your chi better than u do. So stick to your guns and don't let the vet make you change your mind. Good luck :thumbup:


Thanks! And that's true, I don't like how patronising vets can be about things like this. I'm definitely not getting the second one, especially after this. Even if she had not reacted, I would have never done it yearly. Thankfully that vet is not as pushy as usual. She had a huge speech about it, but she did say she respects people's choice if they choose not to have boosters.


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## Dorothy's Mom (Apr 8, 2015)

I wanted to add to this thread about the reason I don't vaccinate any of my animals.

When my Bella, our Min Pin, who passed in February, came to us at the age of 6 she had been vaxed only a few weeks ago. She was on meds when we got her because she had a terrible reaction to the kennel cough vaccine. She nearly died, said the rescue lady. It took her weeks to recover. It was then that I put a stop to all vaccines for my pets.

I have always been wary of vaccines and my own children have never been vaccinated so it made sense to me to not vaccinate my pets, either. They are never boarded, we do not go to dog parks, they don't really come into contact with other dogs. They are always on a lead etc etc. 

And I also know that here, in SW Ontario, there wasn't a single case of a terrestrial animal contracting rabies in years according to the Department of Natural Resources.

I often think that vaccines are an antiquated notion and they ARE a huge money maker not only by big Pharma but by vets as well. Just think - if your pet wasn't going in every year for an examine and vaxes then they would be healthy and the only time the vet would see them would be when they got sick - which, knowing a lot about unvaxed children - is very rare.

Vets would be out of a lot of money if pets stopped being vaccinated. Not only from the lost revenue from the vaccines themselves but also from the fact the animals immune systems would be stronger and therefore get sick less often.

There is also some research out there that links canine diabetes to over vaccination. Canine diabetes had increase many times over through the years and it correlates to the increase in the number of vaccines we inject into our pets.


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

Oh, I'm so glad to hear!


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## coco_little_bear (May 30, 2012)

Dorothy's Mom said:


> I wanted to add to this thread about the reason I don't vaccinate any of my animals.
> 
> When my Bella, our Min Pin, who passed in February, came to us at the age of 6 she had been vaxed only a few weeks ago. She was on meds when we got her because she had a terrible reaction to the kennel cough vaccine. She nearly died, said the rescue lady. It took her weeks to recover. It was then that I put a stop to all vaccines for my pets.
> 
> ...


I agree that it's definitely a big money making thing for vets. There are studies showing that vaccines are effective for many years, most likely life, but of course for vets that would mean losing a lot of money so they won't admit to that. 

I'm not personally against vaccines though (for both dogs and humans), but I don't agree with over vaccinating. Also, unlike you, my dogs are in contact with a lot of dogs. I live in a big city where they meet a million dogs every day, we take them to many public places where there are dogs, many parks and on a lot of hikes. So in my case I think it's important. I think the risk of a reaction is better than the risk of catching a deadly disease like parvo so I would never go without completely. However I refuse to keep vaccinating them throughout their lives, it's just not how the immune system works.


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## Dorothy's Mom (Apr 8, 2015)

Coco Little Bear......

I see you live in the UK. I have a question: do they vaccinate for rabies there? I only ask because of their exclusion of non-UK born animals etc in the UK. I am curious if, as it stands, there are zero cases of rabies in the UK, if they still vaccinate dogs for it.

More of a curiosity question.


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## coco_little_bear (May 30, 2012)

Dorothy's Mom said:


> Coco Little Bear......
> 
> I see you live in the UK. I have a question: do they vaccinate for rabies there? I only ask because of their exclusion of non-UK born animals etc in the UK. I am curious if, as it stands, there are zero cases of rabies in the UK, if they still vaccinate dogs for it.
> 
> More of a curiosity question.


I don't remember the exact date, but from what I know the last case of rabies here was a very long time ago so it's pretty much been eliminated. So we don't vaccinate for it here, unless we take our dogs out of the country. And dogs need to be vaccinated if they are brought here from another country. My Lilo has been vaccinated for rabies as a puppy, but only because she was born in another country. The laws have also changed about animals coming in and out of the UK, it's become easier than it used to be.


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