# Buying a female Chi from the same breeder as male.... help?



## Tito's Mommy (Apr 21, 2006)

I bought my current male chihuahua back in July 2005 and plan to buy a female for companionship and mating. 

I've heard supposedly that you can buy another dog from the same litter just as long as its at least 3 generations out? For example:

Purchase male.......
.................................. 1 litter
...................................1 litter
...................................1 litter

Purchase female 

*This being from the same set of Chi parents.

Does this example make sense to what I'm asking?? Any advise??


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## Courtney (Jun 2, 2005)

Why do you want to breed? Just curious.


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## Tito's Mommy (Apr 21, 2006)

Thank you for responding so quickly... :wave: 

I'm new to the types of Chihuahua breed, but I believe my male is a "Standard" Chihuahua??? He's 6lbs. I'm interested if someone is selling a female.. even if she's a year old. So far when I search the web I find Chihuahua's 500.00 and up and mainly Teacup Chi's available.... not the kind mine is. 

What do you think?


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

That makes no sense at all. That is like straight breeding of a sibling to a sibling. It doesn't matter if it is three litters later. It is like if your mom had a son 15 years later, and you had a kid with him. That kid would still be inbred. 

I am curious as to why you want to breed as well.


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## Courtney (Jun 2, 2005)

Tito's Mommy said:


> mainly Teacup Chi's available.... not the kind mine is.


There is no such thing as a "teacup" Chihuahua. They are two types of chihuahua's: long coat & smooth coat. Some breeders (mostly backyard breeders) like the use the term "teacup" to sell their puppies at a higher price. 

If your male is 6 lbs, he is just in standard. The standard is from 2-6 lbs. 

Do you have a pic of him? I'd love to see him!


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## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

You should never breed a brother and sister. or a mom to a son or a dad to a daughter. It does not matter how many litters are in between they are still full brother and sister. To keep lines going some breeders will breed an unkle to a niece or vice versa, but brother to sister is not good.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

There is no such thing as a standard chihuahua. A chihuahua is a chihuahua- there is also no such thing as a teacup.

Have you read any of my posts? I would not breed a 6lb male chihuahua, because you will have to breed him to a 7 or 8 lb female (which is way out of the breed standard). I am not a big fan of backyard breeders.


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## Tito's Mommy (Apr 21, 2006)

That's what I thought too. I thought that was weird, but wondered if anyone else heard it that way.

My Chi, in which I'll be putting his pic online this weekend, has excellent marketing, structure, health, etc... I thought it would be a shame to let his qualities stop with him. My co-workers thinks he's competition worthy, but we'll see.


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## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

I agree with Jessie on this one, if your male is 6 pounds then he should not be bred because the male is always suppose to be smaller than the female, and if you get a female bigger than him that is out of the standard.


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## Courtney (Jun 2, 2005)

Is he registered?


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

Didn't you say that he weighed 7lbs in a previous post? Even 6lbs is a very big male chihuahua to be breeding. He may be a very beautiful dog, but that doesn't mean that he should be bred. I think that my Madison is very cute, but he weighs 6lbs and is out of breed standard. He is a great pet though, and I do not love him any less because of it.


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## Ory&C (Mar 20, 2005)

As everybody else mentioned before, breeding Chis is not something to be taken lightly. Here's my suggestion.... go to a couple of dog shows and show him. When you get judge's evaluations, talk to them or some experienced breeders and they will tell you first hand whether he's worth breeding. That's what most breeders do anyway :wink: ....


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## Cassiepeia (Apr 28, 2006)

Ory&C said:


> As everybody else mentioned before, breeding Chis is not something to be taken lightly. Here's my suggestion.... go to a couple of dog shows and show him. When you get judge's evaluations, talk to them or some experienced breeders and they will tell you first hand whether he's worth breeding. That's what most breeders do anyway :wink: ....



I totally agree. 

When deciding whether to breed or not you have to look at the entire breed (not just your dog) and ask yourself "What would my dog give to the breed, should his/her genes be passed on?"

You need to make sure the dogs health is excellent, which means more than vaccinations and a basic health check. You have to have him tested for all genetic problems associated with the breed. 
You need to make sure the female has those same tests and it's also wise (IMO) to make sure the parents and grandparents have had the tests and had positive results as well.
Because you want the pups to be as healthy as possible.

Then you have to ask yourself if his (and her) temperament is right for the breed. 
Because you want the pups to actually act like Chihuahuas.

After that you're going to have to look at type...because what's the point of breeding a chihuahua that doesn't look like a chihuahua? 

He needs to fit the standard - Every breed has a "standard" which is basically the 'blue print' for the perfect dog of that breed (simply..it tells you what the dog should look like), you can find a copy of the standard on your national kennel club or breed club website. 

The only way to tell if he fits the standard is if (as has been said above) you show him in conformation shows and get several educated third party points of view.
And be prepared for the judge telling you your dogs 'faults'. 

Breeding (the right way..with the dogs health and well being as a priority) is very expensive and time consuming. It's not something that should ever be attempted unless you've done _lots_ of research, know the breed and it's problems inside out and back to front and have a reputable breeder as a mentor (if possible). 

If your dog isn't the right dog to breed...does it really matter? He's a great pet and he has a great life with you. That's the most important thing in the world in the end. 

Cass.


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## Tito's Mommy (Apr 21, 2006)

~Jessie~ said:


> Didn't you say that he weighed 7lbs in a previous post? Even 6lbs is a very big male chihuahua to be breeding. He may be a very beautiful dog, but that doesn't mean that he should be bred. I think that my Madison is very cute, but he weighs 6lbs and is out of breed standard. He is a great pet though, and I do not love him any less because of it.


 :roll: Are you trying to get off saying that I don't love my Chi that much just because I'm considering exploring this option?? 

He's down to 6 lbs.

It make no difference to me wither he able to breed or not... of course I love him the same!! I've never (and I've had dogs all my life) bought a dou for breeding what so ever! As a matter of fact this is the first time I've ever had a pure breed. I normally rescue mutts from the pound!

I think in some way you trying to help out with advise, but to me, you seem to come off brash!


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## Tito's Mommy (Apr 21, 2006)

I agree with you Ory and Cass.

I don't mind having a 3rd optinon checking out his qualifications since I'm new to this. 

I'm not solid on breeding him... just exploring the option. Maybe just having him Sire a female and nothing else... I don't know. Off the top of my head I believe his mom was 7lbs and his dad 6 lbs. I thought they were kind of big for Chi's myself, but Tito's personality is what drew me in... not a breeding machine. 

I don't want anyone to think I'm having a fit over this, just seeing what other Chi owners think...  :wink:


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I was not trying to say that you don't love your chihuahua- I was just trying to say that certain ones are not meant for breeding. I suggest buying another male if you want to breed. 

Most chihuahuas have great personalities, and one of the major reasons why "Backyard breeders breed" is because they believe that their dog is amazing and that they need to pass that on. 

Like I said before, I would never breed my 6lb male chihuahua. A 7lb female should not be bred- that is out of breed standards. Do you want people to think that you are a backyard breeder who does not do their research? Do you want to add to the overpopulation of pets. I just rescued and rehomed a chihuahua puppy from a backyard breeder- she was way out of the breed standards, and someone had dumped her at a petstore. There are many dogs like this who need great homes- not to be bred.


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## Gypsy (Feb 13, 2006)

Even if is different litters, the puppy would still be a full sister to your male. I wouldn't recommend inbreeding, especially if you're a novice breeder. I know some very experienced breeders do use it occassionally in their breeding programs but it can be very dangerous.

I also wouldn't breed a six pound male because you have to breed to a bigger female, like has already been said, a 7-8 pound female wouldn't be in the breed standard. Your male might be a great example of the breed but usually breeders want a smaller male, in the 3-4 pound range. You could always take him to some dog shows and get breeder and judges opinions on him though.


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## Isshinharu (Jan 27, 2006)

Another breeding thread... these are always interesting.


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

i am sorry but i have noticed some things on this sight. most of you are so negative cant' u just answer the ? she has and move on. you act like anyone on here even thinking of breeding is an awful horrible dog owner and that is not true. if there weren't "backyard breeders" most of us wouldnt' have our babies to begin with. :roll: 
you all are so unsupportive of ppl who are new comers it is unbelieveable. and god forbid anyone use the term "tea cup" omg sue me i did it again. i think you need to be supportive of ppl she can breed her dogs if she wants to who knows she may be the next big breeder in your area.


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## Gypsy (Feb 13, 2006)

Well, I wasn't aware that I told her "Do not breed your dog" I only said my thoughts on inbreeding, that it can be really dangerous and only really experienced breeders should do it, and that a six pound male would have to be bred to a bigger female. I'm sorry if I have come across as rude, when I replied to your own thread about breeding Stephybooboo sometime back I thought I was polite and non-pushy but if I was/am I'm sorry. 

And, like I've said before, people aren't super supportive of everyone who wants to breed because there is such a pet overpopulation and puppymills that we don't want to see more dogs suffer. I have no sympathy for horrible puppymills and kennels, only disgust. My mom is a breeder so I'm not against BREEDERS in general, I just think it should be done responsibly and I try to offer my advice rather than just say don't breed. It's always going to be a controversial subject, all I can do is try to educate and give advice to the best of my abilities.


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## Blue Velvet Elvis (Dec 23, 2005)

I can see a thread lock coming :shock:


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## lecohen (Feb 13, 2005)

stephybooboo said:


> i am sorry but i have noticed some things on this sight. most of you are so negative cant' u just answer the ? she has and move on. you act like anyone on here even thinking of breeding is an awful horrible dog owner and that is not true. if there weren't "backyard breeders" most of us wouldnt' have our babies to begin with. :roll:
> you all are so unsupportive of ppl who are new comers it is unbelieveable. and god forbid anyone use the term "tea cup" omg sue me i did it again. i think you need to be supportive of ppl she can breed her dogs if she wants to who knows she may be the next big breeder in your area.


I am inclined to agree a little...I don't think its fair to force our opinions down anyones throat (and this is not targeted at ANYONE directly)...I do think though that you should do more research about breeding as Chihuahuas are harder to breed and are more likely to have complications.

I also think that some ppl are waaay too concerned about the breed standard, I have seen chis out of standard bred who produce beautiful pet quality pups, we don't all want show dogs.

I would love to see pics of your pooch, he sounds lovely


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

lol here we go again, 

First to answer your question. No, you can't breed brother and sister it is indeed inbreeding. Some breeders do line breed but they know what they are doing and have a reason for doing it in the first place. 

Stephy in another post we wrote why we think the way we do. I do not have my Chihuahua because of back yard breeders. All of my dogs come from experienced well known breeders with the exception of my poodle who is from the pound and spayed. 

Go to puppyfind.com and just take a look around at ALL the chi's for sale. Then go check out petfinder.com for all the chi's in rescue. There are more dogs then there will EVER be homes for. So what happens to these dogs???????????? They are killed every damn day and there is nothing any of us can do about it EXCEPT preach and educate. So some go over board it's only because we care about the breed. We want to keep the breed what it is supposed to be. I don't think there is anything wrong with being passionate about how you feel.


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## lalaNlucky (Jan 10, 2006)

how about leave the breeding to the MANY experienced breeders who have been doing it for years and years.

there are plenty of homeless dogs, and legit breed puppies.


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## Ory&C (Mar 20, 2005)

> how about leave the breeding to the MANY experienced breeders who have been doing it for years and years.
> 
> there are plenty of homeless dogs, and legit breed puppies.


I absolutely agree with this statement...... why not breed dogs that are out of standard? Simply because if that was the case, we wouldn't need standards anymore. There would be a complete chaos and in few generations there will be no breeds as we know them today. We all love our Chis and the breed itself because of it's personality and also because it's the smallest and one of the most intelligent breeds in the world :wink: (I strongly believe that). Why not preserve our beloved breed!!??
And for those concerned about not being able to buy a pet quality pups....... there will ALWAYS be pet quality puppies available, even from the best breeding lines. It's virtually impossible to only produce champions!


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## Tito's Mommy (Apr 21, 2006)

Thank you Stepybooboo and Lecohen ... I appreciate your support!  

My Chi came from parents of similar weight so I thought this was normal for the larger Chihuahua types. For "those" who came down on my backside... I didn't pose the question for someone to get on their soap box about breeding... I just need direct advise...(not lectures). So my advise to "those" people is to lighten' up a little ... okay  Don't be so quick to jump on a new person. When I joined I got such a warm welcome, but as soon as I brought up breeding... dooms day droped on me! I'm not saying someone has to be false face with me that what I'm "considering" doing is okay... but there is a nice way to put things. 8) Not everyone is trying to create puppy mills. For goodness sakes, one of my favorite channels is the "Animal Planet". One of the main shows I catch on that channel is "Animal Cops". My heart truly breaks to hear the sad storys the animal cops go through on a regular basis, but cheers them on when they bust the abusers! Not everyone has bad intentions in mind. I've had mutts all my life and intend to still rescue them from shelters down the road. Tito is just the first pure blood that I've ever had.  

I know that breeding is a subject for any breed of dog or cat that must be investigated and researched. That's why I asked for direct answers from this forum. I really do appreciate your advise. I do agree that some of the best dogs can come from "backyard" breeders. 

"If" I were to do this, it will be under heavy research, judging of my Chi, etc... 

After all, I have a "Poxer" that could've been considered "backyard" breeding. That's if you want to call it that. My sister-in-law rescued a full blooded Brindle Boxer female who got pregnant by her other dog by accident. The father is a full blooded male Pointer. She never meant for it to happen, but it did. So when the puppies came (11 of them) she gave the away for *free* to a *good* home. Now I'm so in love with my boxer/pointer mix! He's getting so big so quick and now weight 35 pounds at just 4 months. 

The funny part is he look like a pure breed boxer... even my vet says so. The only thing that gives him away is the light brown "freckles" that his has on this white fur. His dad was a black and white spotted dog. Ceasar may be a mess sometimes, but has such a cute personality. 

So to make this shorter... people are not always that picky about if the dog is in the "breeding" standard. Just that the puppy comes from a good healthy home... with lots of personality!


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## kenya (Dec 19, 2005)

Clek1430 said:


> lol here we go again,
> Go to puppyfind.com and just take a look around at ALL the chi's for sale. Then go check out petfinder.com for all the chi's in rescue. There are more dogs then there will EVER be homes for. So what happens to these dogs???????????? They are killed every damn day and there is nothing any of us can do about it EXCEPT preach and educate.


I agree with Clek1430. THere are just too many dogs who need a loving home and will never have one.

I think that just because you dog is beautiful and has good temperament it does not means it needs to be bred. There are tons of beautiful dogs with great temperament waiting to be saved at animal shelters also.


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## Tito's Mommy (Apr 21, 2006)

Thank you Cleck1430! I appreciate your concern and putting it in a nicer way! I'm glad there are people out there sticky up against those who breed for profit. There are too many homeless furbabies out there in this world and it does break my heart. 

Tito was actually the first pure breed I bought and the only one of my 3 dogs that is not fixed. I bought him from a breeder who has a passion for Chi's and every litter that has come the breeder have be cute, smart, and healthy. 

Because there are so many homeless dogs out there I normally buy them from shelters over breeders. As a matter of fact when I was 14-15 yrs old I volunteered for a Rescue organization that brought in rescues to a PetsMart store every Sunday. They literally never put any dog "down". They even had this one sweet female that they had out for adoption for 4 years... that was so sweet. I support rescues!


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## Blue Velvet Elvis (Dec 23, 2005)

I try not to get into the breeding debates as I know it will NEVER pertain to me. I believe breeding is a full time occupation that takes years and years of study prior to beginning. 

I don't think the issue people have is even so much over the first generation of dogs one's attempts at breeding produce but over the course of generations the pureness of each breed will dilute until they are indistinguishable from one another. 

It's already out of hand. Yorkipoo's and Porki's (is that one?) Chisnausers? Where does it end? How do the recognized breeds stay in existence? 

I feel the same way about Schipperkes as I do Chi's. I want the breed standards to look like breed standards when my great grand children have their first puppies. Chi's are more of a long standing and recognized breed than are Schips. I look at pictures and etching of schips of a hundred years ago and longer and they are barely recognizable as the same kind of dog. Black, yes, tailless, yes, smaller, yes but the stance is different, the ears and face are different. They've been diluted with other kinds of dogs in the past 100 years or so they've been in the US. 

Even 10 years ago when I met my husband Schip's were a "rare" breed. Nobody had heard of them. The rush to popularity has made the backyard breeder business flourish. There are now a lot of schip's on petfinder. That's something new.


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## Tito's Mommy (Apr 21, 2006)

I forgot to mention that besides my Chi and "Poxer".. I do have a full blooded Dachshund that was a lost dog a one time and passed from home to home. He's almost 7. I hope everyone understands that I'm not out to breed every pure blood I get. Just pondering the thought when it came to Chi's. 

Believe me, if I was one of those backyard breeders... I certainly would be asking for advise... so give me a lil' grace :angel4:


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## Bubblymintyaero (Jan 18, 2006)

The more the breed standards are pushed and stretched to their limits by backyard breeding, the less likely it is to keep this beautiful breed pure. There's the potential for allsorts of 'issues' (not just aesthetic either, but medical as well) to enter the general breed population. Backyard breeding is a silent, but deadly virus, killing off our pure breeds, in my opinion. 

If you are serious about breeding, then, I think most of us would advise you have all the specific medical checks for ENT problems (eg: flabby windpipes / poor eyesight) / Patella Luxation tests (pat.lux. is very common in chis, and even if a dog with mild pat.lux is bred, he can pass it on to a pup in a major way) / heart murmur tests etc etc etc.
There's a HUGE outlay in costs before even considering which female to breed from... because then as others have said you need the right size bitch for the dog...

And argh...
I'd love to get involved in showing, but breeding is definitely a no-no for me!!

Foxywench breeds, I think, so she would be a good one to talk to. Also talk to lots of breeders at shows - most breeders I know did a good five to six years (at least!) research before having their first litter.


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## Tito's Mommy (Apr 21, 2006)

Thanks for the tip!


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

titos mommy- my chi (kujo) is also my first pure bred. i am very excited to have him. to everyone else- i am currently looking on petfinder at least 3- 4 times a day to give another small breed dog a loving home here so that kujo can have a companion.


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## Bubblymintyaero (Jan 18, 2006)

stephybooboo said:


> to everyone else- i am currently looking on petfinder at least 3- 4 times a day to give another small breed dog a loving home here so that kujo can have a companion.


I don't understand why this thread has turned into a need to assert that everyone is committed to adopting rather than buying 'new'. I think the point trying to be made was that poor breeding could end up with more dogs being on PetFinder. It doesn't really matter if a backyard breeder adopts from PetFinder, they're still producing unwanted new puppies; even if they just produce one unwanted puppy, that breeder has just 'replaced' the space left on the adoption books by the dog they just adopted.

Stephy and Tito's Mummy - no one is doubting your love for your babies / desire to rescue unwanted babies at all, so please don't think that! :wave:


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## Tito's Mommy (Apr 21, 2006)

Thank you Bubblymint  :wave:


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

ottytrain5: :cussing: :banghead: 

This has nothing to do with adopting dogs- you are still going to be adding to the problem of overpopulation of pets. I would NEVER breed a dog out of breed standards, and most people who have posted have agreed. There are so many dogs that are in shelters who need to be rescued, who have GREAT and AMAZING personalties. There are so many great breeders who sell their puppies for affordable prices, if you want a pet quality dog. 

I have rescued MANY animals in my past... but that has NOTHING to do with breeding. That doesn't make up for anything. If I wanted to breed pet quality/out of breed standard dogs, there would still be MANY homeless dogs.


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

i never said that i would breed a dog that i rescued i was just stating that i do look on petfinder also to find a pup. i just dont' understand why it seems like most the ppl on this sight have to cram thier opinions down another persons throat? just seems like you all could find a nicer way to approach someone. when i first joined i was yelled at for typing :tea cup" this lady just wanted to know if she could get a pup from the same breeder to breed. NOT if it was ok to have pups or anything like that. it's just rude to me to come off like that to someone when all they are asking for is help :roll:


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## Blue Velvet Elvis (Dec 23, 2005)

You couldn't breed a dog that you rescued anyway. They come spayed or nuetered. I've never heard of a rescue organization that let a dog go un-altered.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

stephybooboo said:


> i never said that i would breed a dog that i rescued i was just stating that i do look on petfinder also to find a pup. i just dont' understand why it seems like most the ppl on this sight have to cram thier opinions down another persons throat? just seems like you all could find a nicer way to approach someone. when i first joined i was yelled at for typing :tea cup" this lady just wanted to know if she could get a pup from the same breeder to breed. NOT if it was ok to have pups or anything like that. it's just rude to me to come off like that to someone when all they are asking for is help :roll:


I never said that you would breed a rescued dog.


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## tasel (Dec 2, 2005)

Come on guys! I am all for the breed standard and all that, but if others want to breed pet quality chis - then let them. As long as the chis are not registered, and they make SURE that the pups go into good homes - why not?

The problem with the "adopting issue" is that many of these dogs do have problems... I mean, my colleague was thinking about adopting a dog from Battersea dogs home (London). She went there with her bf, filled out a big form, had an interview... and in the end there wasn't even a dog they liked, because all of them seemed to have problems like "no kids, need big land (which they have in their country home, but don't have the time for a dog that needs 5 hours walk a day) and blahblahblah". The thing is, she apparently always wanted a mutt from a rescue organisation, but since she can't find any ther who do not seem to have some sort of big problem, she will just go to a breeder instead. Sometimes, buying a dog as a pup, it is easier to influence the way they become, and if you do it right, the dog will give years of fun-filled activities. Do it wrong and you are setting yourself up for trouble.

That's why it is important that breeders choose the owners of their pups accordingly. It is not so much the breed standard / out of breed standard that creates all these dogs with no homes... it's breeders who don't care about where their pups will go - and BYB or proper breeder... breeders who don't really care can be found on both sides!


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## Kristin (Nov 12, 2004)

tasel said:


> Come on guys! I am all for the breed standard and all that, but if others want to breed pet quality chis - then let them. As long as the chis are not registered, and they make SURE that the pups go into good homes - why not?
> 
> The problem with the "adopting issue" is that many of these dogs do have problems... I mean, my colleague was thinking about adopting a dog from Battersea dogs home (London). She went there with her bf, filled out a big form, had an interview... and in the end there wasn't even a dog they liked, because all of them seemed to have problems like "no kids, need big land (which they have in their country home, but don't have the time for a dog that needs 5 hours walk a day) and blahblahblah". The thing is, she apparently always wanted a mutt from a rescue organisation, but since she can't find any ther who do not seem to have some sort of big problem, she will just go to a breeder instead. Sometimes, buying a dog as a pup, it is easier to influence the way they become, and if you do it right, the dog will give years of fun-filled activities. Do it wrong and you are setting yourself up for trouble.
> 
> That's why it is important that breeders choose the owners of their pups accordingly. It is not so much the breed standard / out of breed standard that creates all these dogs with no homes... it's breeders who don't care about where their pups will go - and BYB or proper breeder... breeders who don't really care can be found on both sides!


 :shock: :shock: .....I don't even think I can respond to this post...


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

i havent read many of the posts on this thred but i did notice the first post saying 3 gens between brother and sister being ok...
this is flase, the CLOSEST relation you shoudl EVER breed your dog (and take note that line breeding is even more difficult than regular breeding) is grandson to grandmother. (the male is usually the younger one).
so if your planning on breeding dont buy a female from the same parents.
even one of the same parents is risking it. your best bet in breeding is to find a completly unrelated female.

now i know theres alot of opinions on breeding.
but ill tell you MY OPINION from MY EXPERIENCE.
Breeding (even if your only breeding for Pet puppies) is extreemly involved, and only wonderfull (looks and personality) of the breed should be bred.
many people ont see the harm in back yard breeders as "they only breed ofr pet puppies" but for every none standard puppy they make its one step away form a standard thats taken years. to breed PROPERLY, a breeder must adhere to a strict set of rules one of which being the dogs being bred should be show quality. if they are not the perfect example of the breed the products of the breeding only go to deteriourate the breed weve grown to know and love.
now that being said not all champion dogs produce champion puppies so dont assume just cause your dogs have show ribbons the dog is worthy of breeding to any ole girl either.
i firmly belive that while you dont have to b a dog shower, any dogs your planning on breeding should at the very least be checked over by an experienced AKC (or the UKC in UK, or CKC in canada) breeder or show judge in the breed your interested in. and only if that person thinks the dog is a good example should it be bred.

now to see the breed standard check out the chihuhauha profile on AKC.org

basics:
-your dog should be registed be it with American Kennel Club (AKC), English kennel club (UKC) or canadian kennel club (CKC)(not the CKC we in the us have) or the european equivalent.
-you should have at the very least a 5 generation pedigree, the more champs in the bloodline the better but dont be fooled into thinking that because your line has champions its automatically worthy of breeding.
-you should know the medical history of at least 3 generations of each dog being bred (health concerns cancers luxating patella ect, many of these problems do not occure untill the later years so dont assume because your 2 yr old has no sighns of problems that later in life it wont!

now at 6 lbs yours is on the larger end of the standard size a chihuahua should weigh anything from 2-6 lbs (yes even those tiny "teacup" chihuhaus are just regular chihuahuas with a fancy name in order for "breeders" to charge more for them!)
however a female should be at least 1lb (i prefer 2lbs) larger than the male, this automatically means youd be breeding to a none standard female. 
a male should be no younger than 2 yrs old before breeding and a female shoudl be bred on her 2nd to 3rd heat first time, if they havent had a litter before their 3rd yr, they shouldnt be bred! by that point the birth canal and hips have set and there more likely ot have problems passing a pup.
and a female should NEVER be bred after 6 yrs old!

breeding is also an art, you have to match your male to a female that compliments him nicley, ALL dogs (even the champs) have faults, even if there only slight faults, and the female (or visa versa) should cancel out those faults (and the male should do the same to the female, making puppies genetically probable to be the best looking closest to standard dogs.
ill use my own dogs as an example.
my females tail is slightly too sickle, (too tightly curled), my males, just not quite tight enough, so hopefully (if the genetics work) they will cancel eachother out and the puppies in their litter should have perfect chihuahua tails.
another would be dodgers slightly too long in the leg, and vixies slightly too short, so by breeding them together the puppies should be a happy medium.

now theres some more rules about breeding:
first and to any well educated responsible breeder is HEALTH testing. at the very least any breeding chihuahua should have knees, heart, eyes, and hips tested. most breeders chose to have the dog checkd for everything though. and by health check this is not that take the dog to the vet and they take a look and tell you if the dogs "healthy" these are specific independant lab health tests and have to be performed a certain way. its usually a rather involved process and does cost quite a bit to do properly.

second: your females should NEVER be under 4lbs (most prefer 5lbs to be safe but 4lbs is the absolute minamum.) and the male should be at least 1-2 lbs smaller than her.
doing this is the best way to assure the female will be able to carry the puppies.

unfortunatly with this breed theres also a large number of things that can go wrong, many times a female will just have one puppy that grows too large to pass though the birth canal, C-sections are extreemly common with chihuahuas.

one HUGE suggestion i give ANYONE looking to breed, first attend a couple of dog shows, take a look at the shihuahuas in the show ring, watch them closely see if you can spot the faults in each dog (often very difficult, most people cannot see many of the larger faults, the small faults are almost impossible to spot (i personally have an independant judge take a look at each of my dogs because i know i cant be as objective as i would like to be) but you can learn by watching, you can see what the judge seems to be looking for in head shape, the way the tails held, the way they walk ect.

while your at the shows talk to the owners of the breeds your interested in, many are more than happy AFTER the ring (before they will be flusterd and might seem snippy) to discuss their dogs.

what would be best for you would be to find a breeder (pick one of the above kennel clubs) locally and see if they would be willing to let you assist and mentor you. i suggest anyone interested spend at LEAST 3 years attending shows talking to breeders, doing reaserch on genetics and medicine and if posible actually spend some time WITH a breeder helping with their litter, let them teach you how to figure out pedigrees and genetics.

if you have ANY particular questions or would like to know more on anything, let me know pm me and ill get back to you asap!

i have no problme with people wanting to breed and i truly apreciate those who ASK before doing insead of the other way round, but if your going to do it do it properly!


you Do NOT want to be a back yard breeder.

oh and theres not a penny to be made from breeding if your doing it properly.RESPONSIBLE breeders do not make any profit from breeding!


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## tasel (Dec 2, 2005)

pinkprincess21 said:


> :shock: :shock: .....I don't even think I can respond to this post...


Well, what's your point? 

If it's about the rescue: Maybe there are more dogs in the US who simply need a home and are totally normal! But in many dog homes here in the UK, they are "special cases" (mostly staffs, border mixes, etc.)... and it often says that the dogs need to have LOADS of outside space, no apartments, etc. (even small yorkshire terriers, for goodness sake)... how many of you guys have that???? Would you have any dogs at all, if the only place you could get a dog from was a place where the only dogs availanle ask you to a)not have kids, b)you are at home 24/7, c)you have a huge rural house where your nearest neighbours are miles away... would you still have any of your dogs if that's the only place you can get one from?

I posted the above to just tell you that if people are so scared of the breed standard going down, then don't register non breed standard dogs. So people who want breed standard can go for the registered ones and people who only want a pet can go for non-registered ones! I mean I love my breed standard chis but others might not - they want the "deer" type or whatever... I - just like you - thought that they should not be bred, but after meeting some of them... I just wonder why. It's like saying people who have a big nose and big ears should not have kids as that will have a detrimental effect to society! I think if someone is responsible enough and really cares about where their pups will go to... why not?

How many people here have registered chis anyway? I don't think all of them... would they still have chis if the only ones available were expensive registered ones (Note: here in the UK a registered male chi will set you back about $1,200 - even from very reputable breeders, not websites like Texas Teacups in the US! A non-registered may cost about $800 - if you are lucky)


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## Sidech (Apr 3, 2006)

" my females tail is slightly too sickle, (too tightly curled), my males, just not quite tight enough, so hopefully (if the genetics work) they will cancel eachother out and the puppies in their litter should have perfect chihuahua tails. "

Foxywench, you seem very knowledgeable about breeding but one thing you said surprises me. If your female has the "too sickle" gene and your male the "not tight enough" gene, then I would think your puppies would have either a too sickle or not tight enough tail, not a mix between the two, unless the " right tail " gene is recessive?


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## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

Sidech said:


> " my females tail is slightly too sickle, (too tightly curled), my males, just not quite tight enough, so hopefully (if the genetics work) they will cancel eachother out and the puppies in their litter should have perfect chihuahua tails. "
> 
> Foxywench, you seem very knowledgeable about breeding but one thing you said surprises me. If your female has the "too sickle" gene and your male the "not tight enough" gene, then I would think your puppies would have either a too sickle or not tight enough tail, not a mix between the two, unless the " right tail " gene is recessive?


I am sorry to say but that is correct I bred chi's with my parents for years and one of them they bred has a longer body and longer legs while the other has the shorter body with shorter legs. Well from this litter they kept 2 puppies which are 5 years old now and one has long legs with a short body while the other has short legs with a longer body. What Foxywench said seems very logical but with all the chi's I have been around one thing does not usually cancel the other one out. They either get the tail that is too sickle or too tight. You may get pups that are perfect but I have not seen this. They usually take after the mother or father. I am not saying that it is impossible for them to cancel each other out but just from my experience I have not seen it.


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## Cassiepeia (Apr 28, 2006)

For me the point is Why breed a Chihuahua that doesn't look like a Chihuahua? And why breed a dog that isn't absolutely top notch healthy?

It may seem ok to just breed 'pet quality' pups for those not looking to show, but there isn't any room for them. We have (as people mentioned) a *massive* overpopulation problem and so IMO if you _are_ going to breed you have to really add something to the breed you're interested in otherwise you're simply adding to the problem.

There are already enough "pet quality" pups being born to reputable breeders. There is no need for people to breed specifically _for_ that. Breeding the 'best of the best' gives the pups produced the best start in life and isn't that what we want?

Most backyard breeders love their dogs. In fact a large proportion of bybs are people who love their dogs dearly and think they're the best in the world. They wouldn't dream of hurting their dog, but just don't really understand how much of a problem we have right now.
And because they're essentially 'good people' they think they're doing a good thing by producing 'pet quality' pups from their nice dog. 

Truth is, they're not. And although their dogs are loved and better taken care of than a puppymill dog they (the breeder) are really not that different from the dreaded puppymiller.
They have no regard for the breeds type. They are ignoring the overpopulation problem we have, and are pandering to the publics lust for something "new and cute". They're also much less careful of who they sell their pups too. 
A reputable breeder is VERY cautious about who they give their precious pups to.

Shelter dogs can be wonderful. My own Chi comes from a shelter and he is the sweetest most loving dog in the world. I adore him and will not hesitate to adopt another from a shelter when I am able to. 
Of course, rescuing is not for everyone and I'm fine with that as long as the breeder they buy from is a good reputable one. 

I'm not against breeders. I'm against thoughtless, disreputable breeders. Whether they be "nice people", who love their dogs, or not.

I know that we dog people come down hard on others for mentioning the idea of breeding their 'pet', but it really is a huge problem that needs to be dealt with. For the dogs sake. 

Cass.


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## Tito's Mommy (Apr 21, 2006)

:thumbup: :hello1: :hello2: Tasel!


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## Tito's Mommy (Apr 21, 2006)

I appreciate your detailed info Foxywench and will that as food for thought. That's a lot of info I never knew about and appreciate that you shared it in a respectful, but honest manner. Thanks!


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

not a problem...

note: when i say tiny i mean like a 2 milimeter tightness on either way, it is part of the genetics and while its likely some of the puppies will swing either way, its also very likley since it is such a tiny fault that it can be corrected with some genetic "fiddling"
if however it was a HUGE fault ie a very curled tail or completly straight tail then no...no amount of fiddling will ever realy correct that problem.

sorry if i was general with that part, it just seemed the easiest way to show what i meant by asthetically matching a breeding pair to compliment and cancel out.


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## Bubblymintyaero (Jan 18, 2006)

tasel said:


> I mean I love my breed standard chis but others might not - they want the "deer" type or whatever...


Do you mean deer-headed chihuahuas? 
I think that in the US they may be more strictly against them than over here; I've been going to shows for more than ten years (my dad's an hon. vet. at lots of them), and applehead and deerhead are generally regarded pretty equally. 

Astrid is nearer deer than apple-headed, but if you're talking about full deer-chihuahuas, well, there are reasons why they're not allowed into the breed standard...

Their legginess can cause problems with fragile and luxating patellas for a start - lux.pat. surgery is expensive, and most breed standard chihuahuas that suffer extremely mild luxation don't need that operation, yet in non-breed-standard and 'leggy' chis, the operation is almost certainly necessary. So you could pay maybe £800 for a non-registered, breed standard, or nearly that much for pat.lux. surgery and aftercare on a non breed standard dog.

From a temperament aspect, these so-called deer chihuahuas are often much more headstrong (I can notice the difference between all our previous chis that have been nearer deerhead, and Dennis who is very clearly an applehead). Once the 'deer' characteristic is throughout the dog, rather than just in head shape, their temperament can worsen: they end up in pounds because they are difficult to train / difficult to housebreak, and are - potentially - snappy. 

If people want a dog resembling a deer, they should select something like a deerhound. 
It's not 'pick n mix' with dog types!! :shock: 

Ultimately, any chihuahua can have health and temperament problems, so why breed non-standard dogs where that potential is heightened? 

(Incidentally, when I'm talking about deer-chihuahuas, I'm talking about the really deer-y ones, not the ones that have mild deer characteristics - Astrid has mild characteristics)



> It's like saying people who have a big nose and big ears should not have kids as that will have a detrimental effect to society! I think if someone is responsible enough and really cares about where their pups will go to... why not?


It's not like saying that about people at all. Dogs and people are VERY different. Since time began, people have looked different, etc, but with dogs it is a different matter. Yes, not all dogs have to be show quality, but does that really mean they should not be breed standard?

I think people in this thread - not necessarily you, Tasel - are suggesting that pet quality dogs are not breed standard; this is NOT the case. Pet quality chihuahuas can be (and usually are) lesser quality in a way that does not diminish the breed standard. THAT is the where the variation is seen, like the big noses / big ears you see in humans.

Medical problems are also an issue - the breeder may really care about where the pups go, but does that matter? If the pups developed $1000s worth of medical problems, will that original breeder give a damn, like a breed-standard breeder would? I think that unlikely. 

Why do very few backyard breeders provide health guarantees? Because they don't dare to because they haven't researched their dogs fully to know that the pups will remain healthy.

How many breeders sell their pups not to be bred from and are, and who says these newly invented backyard breeders are going to be as good with the pups as the backyard breeder that sold them a pup? Cue: More diminishing and 'watering down' of the breed standard, esp. if they are bred with breed-standard dogs, and then the puppies are sold on as breed standard. Ad nauseam. :roll: 



> How many people here have registered chis anyway? I don't think all of them... would they still have chis if the only ones available were expensive registered ones (Note: here in the UK a registered male chi will set you back about $1,200 - even from very reputable breeders, not websites like Texas Teacups in the US! A non-registered may cost about $800 - if you are lucky)


So, your answer to why we should be breeding non-breed-standard dogs is so people can afford them? :shock: 
Ah, but my question is... can they afford the potential veterinary bills that will come should it be discovered these non breed standard pups have medical issues? :|


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## Courtney (Jun 2, 2005)

tasel said:


> Come on guys! I am all for the breed standard and all that, but if others want to breed pet quality chis - then let them. As long as the chis are not registered, and they make SURE that the pups go into good homes - why not?


I think thinking like this from people that just want to breed their dogs because they are good looking/have a good personality and want to pass that on is exactly what leads to the overpopulation in the local shelters. 

I think that breeders should breed for the betterment for the breed & keeping the standards the standards. In a few years... will a Chihuahua look like a Chihuahua if this isn't so? :roll:


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## Blue Velvet Elvis (Dec 23, 2005)

The definition of breeding: 

Dog breeding
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Dog breeding is the vocation of mating carefully selected specimens of the same breed to reproduce specific, consistently replicable qualities and characteristics.


Litters of puppies and their mothers should have clean, comfortable bedding.At its best, breeding is a blend of science and art. The skilled breeder has at least general knowledge of genetics and health, and in-depth knowledge of the breed standard and conformation points of his chosen breed. Most breeders are fiercely loyal to their dogs, and are concerned about each individual animal.

At worst, breeding can be a slipshod enterprise in which the major concern is profit, with little regard to the health and welfare of the dogs involved. These often take the form of so-called ‘backyard breeders’ (the term for random or ignorant breeding conducted on a small scale), and ‘puppy mills’ or ‘puppy farms’ (larger businesses). It must be pointed out, however, that many excellent breeders run small-scale programs in their homes, barns, or back yards, and there are profitable large-scale operations run with knowledgeable staff and superlative veterinary care, so size and motive alone are not indicative of the quality of the breeding program.

The birth of a litter of purebred puppies is recorded on a breed registry maintained by an all-breed kennel club or a breed club. Such registries are not the exclusive province of show dogs, as is sometimes thought; the clubs of working dogs also maintain records of their dogs’ lineage.


A responsible breeder checks each puppy for health and conformation.Requirements for the breeding of registered purebreds vary from club to club. Most breed clubs allow for any registered puppy to be bred from once it reaches a suitable age. Some clubs maintain an adjunct or limited register, for puppies of purebred parents not deemed to have the qualities for showing or breeding, or who exhibit a fault. A few clubs, such as the Swiss breed club of the Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, the Jack Russell Terrier Club of America and the Mini Foxie Club of Australia, Inc. have additional, strict requirements for the certification of adult dogs before breeding
[/i]


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## Bubblymintyaero (Jan 18, 2006)

Blue Velvet Elvis from Wikipedia said:


> A few clubs, such as the Swiss breed club of the Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, the Jack Russell Terrier Club of America and the Mini Foxie Club of Australia, Inc. have additional, strict requirements for the certification of adult dogs before breeding


Perhaps that certification should be required for _all_ breeds of dog..

I'm afraid, as harsh as it sounds, I wouldn't allow _any_ kind of purposeful crossbreeding of specific breed dogs, unless it could be proved that it had a use. Without such a license for crossbreeding, owners would be penalised for breeding different breeds of pure-bred dogs with each other. Otherwise, in the not too distant future, 'purebred' is going to mean very little indeed.
Same goes for non-breed-standard breeding: not without a specific use / license.


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## lecohen (Feb 13, 2005)

Sorry I'm with Tasel on this one...I think people need to stop being so judgemental!


I think breeders have the reponsibility for ensuring that their pups go to the right homes in the first place and make sure that potential owners fully understand the breed they are looking at and the responsibilities that go with it!

Do you know that those of you who leave your pooches for 8 hours + a day will not be able to adopt here in the UK - just saying so you realise it is not all as clear cut as you think.

Anyway, I think i'll sit out now cos i don't want to get in the middle of this...I hope that I haven't offended anyone, that is not my intention.

:wave:

Edited typos


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## Blue Velvet Elvis (Dec 23, 2005)

This is what I think of when I think of responsible breeding 

http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0031.htm

I don't think someone breeding casually would know all this or give it a second thought.


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

Another post way off topic lol 

This is not directed to Tito's mommy. 


For the few out there that encourage breeding...... I have a few questions. Do you know what it takes to breed dogs? health tests what disease's and hereditary illness Chihuahua's can have? Have you ever first hand whelped a litter went to the vet for a c~section? Then after the c~section the bitches milk does not come in and you have to feed a litter of puppies around the clock work and juggle kids all at the same time. I didn't think so. We all have a opinion that's fine you can voice yours. When these people breed dogs and have no clue are you going to give them your phone # and help them through it? Doubt it most have no clue that is why they are on this forum asking questions in the fist place. A simple google search or call to your vet will answer most of the questions asked on this forum. If you go back and read most of the posts that get out of hand are simple questions that if you want to be a breeder, do research learn all you can and then ask questions. What gets me is why ask these questions on a forum anyway. These are things that you should learn through a mentor or already know what is involved BEFORE you even think about breeding. That is like saying I want to be a vet and then going to a web site and asking everyone else how to do it. Does not make sense to me. I think it is great for people to breed if they do it for the right reasons. I am a breeder what right do I have to breed and then tell others not to. The only reason I am judgemental is when certain questions are asked a lot of them are common sense if you know anything about the breed you are thinking about breeding. 

Chihuahua's are supposedly by breed standard the smallest dog. All the dogs in rescue are the ones NOT in the breed standard or mixed. Hmmm wonder why that is poor little fifi got too big and is no longer worthy. It's sad but it is fact that is the way our socity works. Chihuahua's didn't even get this popular until they started carting them around on the TV.


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## Bubblymintyaero (Jan 18, 2006)

lecohen said:


> Do you know that those of you who leave your pooches for 8 hours + a day will not be able to adopt here in the UK - just saying so you realise it is not all as clear cut as you think.


I would imagine / hope very few people _would_ leave their dog completely unattended for eight hours or more regularly each day. If you're leaving a dog for that long each day, for the dog's sake (small or large) people should be looking into dog walkers / pet sitters who will check on the dog during the day.

Once again, though, it's not a case of whether people can / will adopt.

If anything, it proves a point that the puppies may find it hard to find homes should they end up with irresponsible owners (something _more_ likely if the pups are non breed standard / relatively cheap, no matter how good the 'breeder' is) who then put them up for adoption. More unwanted dogs. Great. Just what we need.


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## janiebabes (Mar 30, 2004)

someone made a comment about not wanting to get a show chi. When purchasing for a *genuine *show breeder. You are not paying any more for a pet quality Chi, in the long run you are paying more for the backyard breeders claiming to show their dogs and listng all the champs. Those dogs come with health issues. Show breeders are not selling sick dogs or dogs with health issues. They are selling dogs as pet quality that would not serve a purpose in the ring because of faults they are not breedable to conform to the breed. Their bites may be off, heads too small or too large, muzzles too small or too large not angled properly. Things those of us that are too inexperienced to notice and we wouldnt know the difference. These dogs are not beeing shown or bred for "looks" only they are being bred to weed out all health defects to preserve the breed health wise and looks. So before purchasing your chihuahua don't let the price grab you that small price may come with a large vet bill. Dont let the highier price get you because it says 5 champs in pedigree or even more. many of those dogs with the champs in their pedigree have been bred to unethical breeders in the mix that use the champs in pedigree to get the larger dollars. Health is what you want if a dog isnt healthy the looks wont keep it alive. JMO


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

oh how i wish someone would lock any posts like this- you all will never stop judging others or forcing your opinions down another persons throat


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## Courtney (Jun 2, 2005)

I don't think any opinions are being "forced" down anothers throat, I think that everyone is just stating their honest opinion about breeding. Breeding any kind of dog is going to be a touchy subject.


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## Blue Velvet Elvis (Dec 23, 2005)

Everyone has opinions. For example, there are several people that think that having a doggie door is a bad thing as my pup will get swooped up by a hawk. It's thier opinion, I know it's thier opinion and I haven't brought it up because I don't wish to start any fights.

What I have also not done is accuse anyone of forcing thier opinions on me. If I don't like something I have three choices, moan and complain, ignore, or not come back. I try to ignore, not engage negative energy and keep going. 

It's your opinion that people are shoving thier ideas down others throats. I think there is an example of what we all fear for any dog being posted throughout this forum. I won't name names but I believe anyone posting in the past few days knows what I'm talking about. 

We all share one common thread here. We LOVE dogs. We want the best for dogs and we especially are enamored with chihuahuas. Perhaps the bad energy should be focused on our commonalities instead of our differences. 

The internet is a strange place. You can't see the persons face or hear the inflection in thier voice when they post. You have no idea a lot of times how what was typed was meant. Take everything you read with a grain of salt. You can chose to learn from it or you can take offense. It's all up to you. 

:wave:


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## janiebabes (Mar 30, 2004)

stephybooboo said:


> oh how i wish someone would lock any posts like this- you all will never stop judging others or forcing your opinions down another persons throat


These are *not opinions *I state these are facts on the breed and why they are bred and shown. Take it as educational matter instead of getting your feathers ruffled :roll:


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

i meant some ppl are being forceful- not just to this new lady but to others. and it's rude. i wish we could all get along. you are right blue- we cant' see what others facial expressions are or thier tone of voice. but it SEEMS that ppl are rude and being very forceful with thier opinions to me. i thought this was a place where we could all get along and find opinions and help with our dogs. doesn't seem that way. seems kind of like there are clicks within this forum. i am odviously not part of it either :roll:


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## Blue Velvet Elvis (Dec 23, 2005)

I don't know if I'm in a clique or not. I just know that I don't post things to make people mad or accuse people of anything. I treat people the same as I want to be treated. There really are real people behind all the typing, it's easy to forget. All these real people have emotions. It's not polite to accuse anyone of anything.


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## Courtney (Jun 2, 2005)

There are no cliques on this forum, just people trying to educate other people before they make decisions. This person came here for opinions & thoughts... the members have given that to them.


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## Kristin (Nov 12, 2004)

tasel said:


> Come on guys! I am all for the breed standard and all that, but if others want to breed pet quality chis - then let them. As long as the chis are not registered, and they make SURE that the pups go into good homes - why not?


This is what I was shocked at. But Courtney already said what I wanted to..so I'm not going to repeat it.



Courtney said:


> tasel said:
> 
> 
> > Come on guys! I am all for the breed standard and all that, but if others want to breed pet quality chis - then let them. As long as the chis are not registered, and they make SURE that the pups go into good homes - why not?
> ...


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## tasel (Dec 2, 2005)

Courtney said:



> tasel said:
> 
> 
> > Come on guys! I am all for the breed standard and all that, but if others want to breed pet quality chis - then let them. As long as the chis are not registered, and they make SURE that the pups go into good homes - why not?
> ...



Ok... so it's better to breed Chihuahuas who are perfect breed standard, but have yappy not-so-nice personalities? :roll: That sounds like some sleazy guys who want the long-legged pretty blonde, no matter how difficult she really is!!!!!! :roll: 

When I was doing my research on buying my first chi, there were some "proper" KC breeders who had loads of chis (very yappy), but were slightly obsessed about breeding a chi as close to breed standard as possible. The chis who did not fall in line were sold, and they didn't really bother who bought them... they sold them to whoever was there first! They didn't care who the owners would be... they only cared about those that were bree standard and thus "worthy" of the breed. Many don't even use breed standard bitches! Breeders like the bitch to be bigger than the male, but somehow the bigger chis don't necessarily have the apple head, etc. required by the breed standard! 

This thread scares me a bit. Sometimes, I find it scary to what lengths people go to aim for "perfection". And that's the problem with breed standards... they tempt people to create perfection. This might be a bit philosophical, but I am sure _some_ people here will understand.

Don't get me wrong... I am not saying breed standards are worth nothing at all... my dad's a breeder (though not chis or dogs, unfortunately)... and his dad was, too, ages ago. He is very good at what he does. He had people from abroad as buyers (from Japan to Saudi Arabia), because people knew he was good. But he did not necessarily mind if let's say farmers bred animals, etc.

If you only want to own breed standard chis... fine, go ahead with it. But please stop lecturing people that that's how it should be. The breed standard was concocted by people years ago, who saw a couple of chis, and they liked the look of them. They then created the image of a perfect chi - or what they thought was one. It is based on pure luck and timing that the chi looks the way it looks like now. What if the breed standard was actually decided upon a couple of centuries ago... surely, the breed standard would look different (most likely, more of a "deer" head as far as I could see from old pictures). I myself do love my breed standard chis, but had they been any different, I wouldn't love them any less or find them any less beautiful. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, they say...

Bubblemintyaero... I normally do like your posts a lot, but please do not condone others who have to leave their dogs at home to go to work. Not all people have the luxury to stay at home, not all girls can or want to be housewives (and even so, in today's world... we better all get rich husbands if we want to live a nice life and not work :wink: ). And dog sitters/walkers may be affordable in some areas. I used to dog walk at uni (in the North), and I was paid £15 a week... Here in London that wouldn't even be enough for 2 walks! I thought of putting my first chi into doggie daycare once, but it would have worked out to be about £360 a month - that's like sth. like $550? In the US, you could rent a small apartment for that price... and in fact, that is equal if not more expensive than a childminder! I was told that dogs naturally sleep more than humans anyway... and my dogs do sleep whilst I am at work. Well, my bf is doing a PhD and works from home several days a week He told me that the reason they are so full of energy when I get back is that they sleep all day long, mostly ignoring him - sometimes looking at him like, why can't you leave us alone... you're too noisy and we can't sleep! I never knew that myself...

That said, I'm leaving this thread, as I see the lock coming...


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

Im new here so I know I am in no kind of a clique. 

I base my opinion on what I know first hand. It seems to me you want us to be nice about breeding and you want us to all jump on the wagon and help people out that want to breed. You are getting upset because some of us will not do that. 

No one has bashed you or been rude to you as a person they just don't agree with your opinion there's nothing wrong with that. I have nothing against you at all. I am sure you are a great doggy mom but I don't feel that you should get mad and upset over educated advise.
You are not a breeder are you? I asked valid questions in my last post. I would like to know how much you really know about breeding? If you know nothing about breeding or about what Tito's mommy asked in this post I don't see why you even post anything. This is not the first post you have seen like this we all already went through this not that long ago. This is a huge forum and the only time there is this much tension is on breeding posts. I think this is the most friendliest forum I belong to. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree. Don't take it so personal. I have a lot of compassion for animals and work with rescue/foster and am involved with dog shows. When you see dogs getting PTS on a daily basis you tend to get your panties in a bunch with people who just want to breed anything.


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## stephybooboo (Apr 2, 2006)

amen tasel. you said everything i wanted to but i was getting too mad to do it.


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## Kari (May 13, 2004)

I'm going to keep this one open still but please try to keep it toned down. I don't like to lock threads, I am for the 'open discussion' but if nothing is being resolved or discussed calmly it will have to be locked eventually. :wave:


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I get very upset when I hear about people breeding dogs that are out of breed standard, because I love the look of the chihuahua as it is today. It is very very easy to buy an AKC chihuahua from a good breeder- both of Rylie's parents were show dogs, and her price was not high at all. Her parents were health tested, and Rylie has a congenital defects guarantee as well. Now, on the other hand, backyard breeders, in general, do not do health testing or have any health guarantees on their puppies. I think that is very irresponsible to breed a dog that is out of breed standard as well.

This forum is also a public discussion forum, where we are allowed to help out other members and express our ideas. I love my dogs to death- they are my babies. I love all dogs, and I would not want someone to go into breeding uneducated when I have a chance to help stop that.

There is no clique on this forum- we are just a bunch of owners who want what is best for our dogs.


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## Kari (May 13, 2004)

Very good points made Jessie. :wink:


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## Courtney (Jun 2, 2005)

~Jessie~ said:


> This forum is also a public discussion forum, where we are allowed to help out other members and express our ideas. I love my dogs to death- they are my babies. I love all dogs, and I would not want someone to go into breeding uneducated when I have a chance to help stop that.


Very well said. I think that most of us are trying to educate those that are questionable about breeding or supporting the fact of breeding out of standard Chi's. It's just really hard to judge someone's tone of voice through posts on a forum.


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## Bubblymintyaero (Jan 18, 2006)

tasel said:


> Bubblemintyaero... I normally do like your posts a lot, but please do not condone others who have to leave their dogs at home to go to work. Not all people have the luxury to stay at home, not all girls can or want to be housewives (and even so, in today's world... we better all get rich husbands if we want to live a nice life and not work :wink: ). And dog sitters/walkers may be affordable in some areas. I used to dog walk at uni (in the North), and I was paid £15 a week... Here in London that wouldn't even be enough for 2 walks! I thought of putting my first chi into doggie daycare once, but it would have worked out to be about £360 a month - that's like sth. like $550?


I'm not _condemning_ (I think you meant that rather than 'condone'?) people who do leave their dogs at home, I just find it quite shocking that people are willing to do that. I'm a student - I leave uni next year, and am currently looking for a job; I was offered a £25k / year job working at the PR firm I completed work experience at last summer - that's a pretty good first job offer. But I didn't take it for one reason: Astrid. I would rather be poorer and spend time with my girl.

I realise dogs sleep all day when they are at home, etc; my issue with leaving dogs at home alone is their lack of social skills. Some dogs are fine with being left, and still remember their manners, but I've seen some horrors in our practice where dogs lack respect for anyone - even their owner - and it often turns out that the dog doesn't feel the need to obey someone who isn't around them for long periods of time. One of the cases I remember most, the owner quit her job for a lesser paid one, so she could spend more time with the dog and the dog's respect increased ten-fold. 

As others have said, that's just my opinion; if people successfully leave dogs at home for more than eight hours a day every day of the week and don't mind doing so, that's fine, but you cannot stop me having the opinion that it's not the best thing for a dog. Sorry 

I think it's nice that we all have different opinions - the world would be a bloody boring place if we didn't, wouldn't it?! :lol:


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## Bubblymintyaero (Jan 18, 2006)

Courtney said:


> ~Jessie~ said:
> 
> 
> > This forum is also a public discussion forum, where we are allowed to help out other members and express our ideas. I love my dogs to death- they are my babies. I love all dogs, and I would not want someone to go into breeding uneducated when I have a chance to help stop that.
> ...


Exactly!!!   

Also, I think by its very nature, advice can come across as patronising / shoving ideas down people's throats, when it is only present in text. However, if people have asked for advice via the internet, they should expect responses to come across as rather patronising in manner, unless they read them as they would come across when spoken... :?


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## tasel (Dec 2, 2005)

Bubblymintyaero said:


> I'm not _condemning_ (I think you meant that rather than 'condone'?) people who do leave their dogs at home, I just find it quite shocking that people are willing to do that. I'm a student - I leave uni next year, and am currently looking for a job; I was offered a £25k / year job working at the PR firm I completed work experience at last summer - that's a pretty good first job offer. But I didn't take it for one reason: Astrid. I would rather be poorer and spend time with my girl.
> 
> I realise dogs sleep all day when they are at home, etc; my issue with leaving dogs at home alone is their lack of social skills. Some dogs are fine with being left, and still remember their manners, but I've seen some horrors in our practice where dogs lack respect for anyone - even their owner - and it often turns out that the dog doesn't feel the need to obey someone who isn't around them for long periods of time. One of the cases I remember most, the owner quit her job for a lesser paid one, so she could spend more time with the dog and the dog's respect increased ten-fold.
> 
> ...



Yep, I meant condemn...

I understand that some people feel guilty about leaving their dogs home. It's probably like with mums who return to work after maternity. 

Please don't mind me asking, but about being happier poor to spend loads of time with your girl: how long will it take until necessity will kick in? Once you figure out that the money you will earn with jobs for which you work less than 8 hrs per day will not afford you certain things in life? The only thing that allowed me to have my chis in the first place is that I earned enough to buy them, earn enough to take them to the vet, to take them on holidays with me... keeping dogs is costly... just don't be blinded by the love you feel for your chi.

I do love my chis, but they have each other during the day, they listen to me, and they have very good social skills. In fact some people have bought dogs thinking they would be like my first chi - but they weren't.
People have commented that they are so people-friendly and are not what they thought chihuahuas would be (ppl generaly think they are small yappy things). Even if you spend 24/7 with your chis, it won't boost their social skills... it's about them spending time with you *as well as* other people... that will make them more confident with people - not just you. So during the weekends and after work, I spend time with them but take them to see other people... that worked out better than me spending a lot of time with them on my own...


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## Ory&C (Mar 20, 2005)

I think it's the quality not the quantity of time we spend with our little furry friends. My family has always worked, I will always work, but hey we always had dogs that were very well behaved. We did Agility with them, we took them to obedience classes and I also show my current Chi.
It's true that if you're gone for longer periods of time you have to have some arrangements or perhaps more than one dog to keep company..... but it is all possible if we put our minds to it. After all, we all have to survive somehow :wink: ,......


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## Bubblymintyaero (Jan 18, 2006)

tasel said:


> Please don't mind me asking, but about being happier poor to spend loads of time with your girl: how long will it take until necessity will kick in? Once you figure out that the money you will earn with jobs for which you work less than 8 hrs per day will not afford you certain things in life? The only thing that allowed me to have my chis in the first place is that I earned enough to buy them, earn enough to take them to the vet, to take them on holidays with me... keeping dogs is costly... just don't be blinded by the love you feel for your chi.


I'm comfortable enough off with various ventures I do to survive on a relatively low paid job, so I am luckier than a lot of people in that respect.

I am not blinded by love for her; I guess I do have some of that 'maternal guilt' though and blame myself for the fact that she's not been socialised enough, hence I find it daunting to leave her for eight hours a day without any kind of socialisation at all. :?

It doesn't help either that I've seen dogs that have been left alone for long periods of time and end up driving themselves (and their owners) mental... perhaps that's the problem of growing up in a veterinary practice: you see the extremes :lol:


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## Bubblymintyaero (Jan 18, 2006)

(This place is better than therapy... I'd _pay_ a counsellor to get the kind of response out of me that I just gave to Tasel's questions :lol


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

tasel i want to very firmly add this, NO respectable responsible breeder is ONLY breeding for loks, temperment is the goal, but it shoudl also be part of the FULL package, if your "BREED standard" breeder is breeding pretty dogs and neglecting their tmeperment they are NOT good breeders. i could NEVER condone breeding ANY dog with a temperment fault!
however they shoudl also be breeding for breed standard looks too!

you shoudl never do anything halfway! and temperment and standard go hand in hand!!! 

again any breeder neglecting good temperments to make their lines show worthy is NOT a good breeder no matter how much they like to say they are...ALL dogs, show or otherwise should be first and foremost LOVING well bred family members. they should look like the breed there supposed to look like, they should be healthy, and they should be well adjusted socilized and well trained pets.

oh and the "yappy" part is not genetics, its lack of training! these dogs are predisposed to be alerting, however those that bark uncontoled is a serious lack of training.

vixie and dodger bark, alot, especially when its something they think i realy need to know about...but they also know when i say "ok guys "ENOUGH" they stop, imediatly. this is not from the way they were bred, this is because they are well trained and well adjusted dogs.

i dont care how showy a dog is, if its agressive or overly shy (cautious is fine) then it should not be bred, however neither should the 10 lb long legged "deer headed" chihuhaua with the great personality, because if thats what we start doing, eventually the only chihuhas left would be those 10lb long legged "deer headed" chihuahuas.

get it!?

and in responce to the origional post, i hope your questions were answerd!


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## janiebabes (Mar 30, 2004)

foxywench said:


> i dont care how showy a dog is, if its agressive or overly shy (cautious is fine) then it should not be bred, however neither should the 10 lb long legged "deer headed" chihuhaua with the great personality, because if thats what we start doing, eventually the only chihuhas left would be those 10lb long legged "deer headed" chihuahuas.
> 
> get it!?
> 
> and in responce to the origional post, i hope your questions were answerd!


 :thumbleft:


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## Bubblymintyaero (Jan 18, 2006)

foxywench said:


> oh and the "yappy" part is not genetics, its lack of training! these dogs are predisposed to be alerting, however those that bark uncontoled is a serious lack of training.


But some dogs, from experience, are more predisposed to yappiness than others. And from a lot of the chihuahua behaviour articles and books I've read, deer-heads are more predisposed to yappiness than apple-heads. Not scientific fact, but something a lot of owners seem to agree on, and it's been true not only of my own chis, but others as well - most of which have been trained pretty thoroughly. I think it's connected with temperament, so I would say it's connected to genetics. In my opinion


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

i do agree that they are predisposed by their very nature/temperment to be "talkative" dogs, (ive never had a deer headed chi so i wouldnt know if these seem to bark more) but i was more responding to tasels post...
chihuahuas by nature will alrety you to ANYTHING they think you shoudl know about...(thats MOST things lol) however a chihuahua with barking so uncontroed as to be called "yappy" (in my opinion and experience this mean constant uncontroled barking) that itself is the training not the genetics, all chis will bark to let you know whats going on around them, however only a well trained chihuhaua will stop when you ask it to!
any breeder with YAPPY dogs in my opinion is more interested with "making pretty dogs and getting some money off their "SHOW" babies, than the actuall well being of thier dogs, often times training is neglected!

and so its made clear, if someone is breeding showy dogs but neglecting a good temperment there just as much of a back yard breeder as the guy breeding the 10lb deer headedchi round the corner!

breeding should be about BOTH look and temperment, NOT one or the other!

thats an interesting point though bubbly, i wonder if the more deer type are more predisposed to being more barky...the wonder woudl be if the deer head was a natural mutation or if somewhere way back new genetics were added from a breed that was even MORE barky ...

i wish we knew more about the chihuahuas far back history...


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## tasel (Dec 2, 2005)

I read that all dog breeds with a short snout would - if left unbred amongst the breed (i.e. no breeder selecting the dogs to be bred) will be subject to mean reversion... that means their snout will become longer. Look at ancient drawings of the Techichi (the chis predecessor), they had longer snouts. The reason why chis have the apple head and the short snout is because humans love the "baby look" of the applehead (round head, big eyes), and have consistently bred the chi to look like this, but it's not how nature planned for dogs to be... I guess deer head types are a result of nature's "backleash"...


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## Cassiepeia (Apr 28, 2006)

tasel said:


> I read that all dog breeds with a short snout would - if left unbred amongst the breed (i.e. no breeder selecting the dogs to be bred) will be subject to mean reversion... that means their snout will become longer. Look at ancient drawings of the Techichi (the chis predecessor), they had longer snouts. The reason why chis have the apple head and the short snout is because humans love the "baby look" of the applehead (round head, big eyes), and have consistently bred the chi to look like this, but it's not how nature planned for dogs to be... I guess deer head types are a result of nature's "backleash"...


No they're just the result of bad breeders. Although the Techichi is in the Chi's background, they aren't even close to being the same dog. The modern Chihuahua is the result of a mix of breeds, including the Techichi. 

Nature didn't intend most of the dogs we have today, but I doubt that the bad examples produced by byb & puppymills are natures backlash.

Cass.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

a big thumbs up to cassiepeia! thats exactly what i WANTED to say in responce to that but you beat me too it and much more eloquently than i could have put it too!


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## tasel (Dec 2, 2005)

Cassiepeia said:


> No they're just the result of bad breeders. Although the Techichi is in the Chi's background, they aren't even close to being the same dog. The modern Chihuahua is the result of a mix of breeds, including the Techichi.
> 
> Nature didn't intend most of the dogs we have today, but I doubt that the bad examples produced by byb & puppymills are natures backlash.
> 
> Cass.



Oh well, tell biologists that - weird that people who seem to suggest they know so much about breeding discount the very nature of biology!!! The result of bad breeders - yeah, maybe! But don't you find it a bit ridiculous to just say it cannot be nature which creates the deer type chis without thinking about it yourself? Any dog which is bred was SELECTED by breeders to look a particular way. I am just telling you that by nature no dog (even the Pekingese) is supposed to have a short snout! Nature creates them the way they were planned to be. If you think deer types are the result of bad breeding, then you just confirm my point... nature does not "breed" the apple head, it does not "select" the apple head! Bad breeders don't either... 

I said that it is probably nature's backleash... which it is most likely going to be if we go into it in scientific detail - and it's not even that difficult to understand. I mentioned before that my dad was a breeder - a different animal, not dogs - but he knows a lot about breeding (his dad did breed several different types of animals before him - so it's a family trait really). So I do know a thing or two about breeding as I was brought up with the whole issue. If any of you had been a really good breeder - there would be one thing that you would know: breeding only exists because of humans, nature has never intended for it to happen, and that's why breeders have to work so hard to go by the breed standards. Every breeder - with each litter, with each generation of puppies - is essentially fighting against nature... Many breeders know this and that's the art of it all - that's why the best breeders are seen as accomplished: because it is basically art to win against nature. Breeders create the look of an animal which is pleasing to people but may not be very "wise" if dogs were in natural habitat. The apple head, for example, is what often makes the birth of chihuahuas difficult - a dog with a longer snout but smaller head would be a lot easier for the dam to give birth to.

If nature designed for chis to look like the way they look like now... apple head and all... breeders may as well not exist. Chihuahuas would pretty much look very close like the way they are supposed to look like according to breed standard - and it wouldn't be much of an accomplishment to breed them.

And yes, as I quote you "nature didn't intend for most of the dogs we have today" - so why is it so difficult to understand the above point - that nature would not have chosen the chis to look like the way they look like now?

And anyway...a good breeder should first of all get their knowledge about biology and genetics right... I mean that's the very nature of breeding, right? They should read as much about genetics as possible... nothing short of getting as much reading done as to be able to understand a genetics course at college aimed at sophomores. I read in this thread somewhere that someone was trying to do compensatory matings (breeding two dogs with two exaggerated qualities, in the hope that the exaggerated qualities of one will counter-balance the faults of another). This type of breeding - more often than not - do not work out. The offspring are more likely to consist of a mixture of both exaggerated qualities rather than the quality previously desired.

With that... I'll let this thread be... it just does not make any sense to me!


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## Courtney (Jun 2, 2005)

tasel said:


> That said, I'm leaving this thread, as I see the lock coming...


You said that a while ago and it never happened. :wave:

I think this thread is dead anyways, it seems like all the same things are being brought up again & again.


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## Bubblymintyaero (Jan 18, 2006)

tasel said:


> If nature designed for chis to look like the way they look like now... apple head and all... breeders may as well not exist. Chihuahuas would pretty much look very close like the way they are supposed to look like according to breed standard - and it wouldn't be much of an accomplishment to breed them.


I don't understand that comment... Surely 99.9% of them being breed standard would be a good thing? 

I think most people's accomplishment is in breeding healthy, breed standard puppies? Otherwise, you're saying that breeders who breed good quality breed standard dogs aren't making any kind of accomplishment?! :?


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## Kari (May 13, 2004)

Courtney said:


> I think this thread is dead anyways, it seems like all the same things are being brought up again & again.


And that is the very reason they tend to get locked. :wink:


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