# Puppy with no papers



## princesslisa31 (Mar 31, 2009)

My little bambi has no KC papers. her mum was KC registered but her dad wasnt so I cant get any done for her.
There is a paper called the companion register with KC do you think I may be a ble to show her with them and maybe if she is breedable use them ? one of my friends who has two chis a boy and a girl has the same problem her boy is kc registered but the girl isnt! I never thought about the papers when I got her because she is such an adorable little girl and a family pet,but looking into this forum it seems the majority of users here think all pups must have papers to keep the breed to standard.
If I cant show bambi when she is bigger then no problem and if I cant breed her,no problem but I would like to be able to.
anyway let me know what you think and about your experiences with no papers lol


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Hello,
If your bitch is not KC registered then you will never be able to register any puppies she produces with the kennel Club....or sell them as "pedigrees." You will not be able to show her either at Kc events.
Personally I'd always shy away from anyone who was breeding puppies from non KC registered dogs, it smacks of back yard breeding regardless of any good intent 
But that is simply my thoughts and opinion.

I think you may need to ask yourself why you want to breed form your girl? The free ad sites are full of Chihuahua puppies looking to be sold, many not KC registered and of dubious origin.
Breeding a Chihuahua is not a game and bitches do die and many need caesarean sections to deliver. The less experience you have, the greater the scope for problems. How would you feel if your little one died...you might lose the litter too or have to attempt to hand rear. Not easy I've hand reared rescue kittens that didn't make it....I was heart broken and they'd only been with me a week or so.

My thoughts would be forget about the papers, Bambi is an adorable pet, they don't matter now. If she were mine I'd be booking her in for her spay when old enough and enjoying her as a treasured companion :love7: 

Barbara x


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## princesslisa31 (Mar 31, 2009)

thanks barbara,yes like I said she is a lovely pet so am not thinking I must breed her I know about all the complications that can happen,she is only 12 weeks how old do they have to be to be done?
thanks for your comment


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Hello again 

Do speak to your vet surgery, but most vets will advise a spay at 5 and a half months, before their first season. Every season increases the risk of mammary cancer (breast cancer.)

Any questions just ask away, many of us here have spayed Chihuahuas 

Barbara x


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## SkylinexBleedsxRed (Apr 12, 2009)

Both of mine have no papers. I know that they are full-blooded Chihuahua and that is really all I care about. I don't care about the AKC or whatever. Bella's father though was part of that, But she was sold without her papers. I wanted another Chihuahua, Be it girl or boy, To keep Buster company. If at all that the breed time arrises, So be it. I know both are in good health(As far as I know, Having some sort of problem with Buster at the moment) But I'm more of the ah natural route when it comes to things the way it supposed to be. You don't put human babies into a category, Why should dogs do the same? I'm against puppy mills on all aspects just because someone wants to profit off of them. But that is another story. I think if you wanted to breed yours, Go for it. Don't worry about having the "best prize" or something. Just be careful and let the process take its course.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

The thing is if people aren't bothered about pedigrees, it won't take many generations for Chihuahuas to become nothing more than your average mongrel  Not that I dislike mongrels, quite the contrary, loved many and worked in rescue with them for years 

But if I want a Chihuahua, I want a Chihuahua...and that means a pure bred one 

Why buy a dog that the breeders can't or won't provide a background for (pedigree) when you can go to a breeder who can? Many backyard breeders in the UK are charging as much for non KC registered puppies as breeders who KC register are  

Barbara x


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## SkylinexBleedsxRed (Apr 12, 2009)

Rosiesmum said:


> The thing is if people aren't bothered about pedigrees, it won't take many generations for Chihuahuas to become nothing more than your average mongrel  Not that I dislike mongrels, quite the contrary, loved many and worked in rescue with them for years
> 
> But if I want a Chihuahua, I want a Chihuahua...and that means a pure bred one
> 
> ...


You have a point. I can agree with that. That really is a shame that they are doing that. Everywhere I'm sure have that sort of thing going on. You really have to be careful on what you're getting. It is better to see them beforehand and see if that is what you want.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

SkylinexBleedsxRed said:


> Both of mine have no papers. I know that they are full-blooded Chihuahua and that is really all I care about. I don't care about the AKC or whatever. Bella's father though was part of that, But she was sold without her papers. I wanted another Chihuahua, Be it girl or boy, To keep Buster company. If at all that the breed time arrises, So be it. I know both are in good health(As far as I know, Having some sort of problem with Buster at the moment) But I'm more of the ah natural route when it comes to things the way it supposed to be. You don't put human babies into a category, Why should dogs do the same? I'm against puppy mills on all aspects just because someone wants to profit off of them. But that is another story. I think if you wanted to breed yours, Go for it. Don't worry about having the "best prize" or something. Just be careful and let the process take its course.


Without a breed standard, we will lose the quality of the breed of dog. If everybody just decides to breed, papers or no papers, we will have more and more dogs in shelters and chi's that we don't even know if they are 100% chis. It's not responsible and it's not fair to the dogs, who will ultimately suffer as well.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

If you are to insist on breeding them then you may want to try CKC (Continental Kennel Club) as from my understanding they will register anything even rescue's :-( 

I agree with the other's, you really shouldnt breed anything that isnt registered where you have a strong line you can reference back to for health in genetic issues that could arise. Breeding is something that should be seriously researched and you should have a mentor with 10 yrs + breeding experience. Breeding is also something that you should think about in many different aspects as such as but not limited to...Cost's of the bitch if for some reason she has problems with delivery, a contract, the contract stating that you are willing to take any puppy back to rehome yourself to make sure they get good home's if no longer able to continue living with the original owner. Also take into consideration the health tests that need to be done before each breeding of both bitch and stud, if these are not run then you can possibly lose bitch/stud or both and possibly cause both to be sterile. And ofcourse last but not least..consider the overpoplation of pets in shelter's, rescues and on the street's...do you really want to add to this. Lastly the fact that leaving your dog/bitch intact could cause them to have health issues in the future. 

Just a few things to consider when breeding as it is a great responsibility;-)


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

Yoshismom said:


> If you are to insist on breeding them then you may want to try CKC (Continental Kennel Club) as from my understanding they will register anything even rescue's :-(
> 
> I agree with the other's, you really shouldnt breed anything that isnt registered where you have a strong line you can reference back to for health in genetic issues that could arise. Breeding is something that should be seriously researched and you should have a mentor with 10 yrs + breeding experience. Breeding is also something that you should think about in many different aspects as such as but not limited to...Cost's of the bitch if for some reason she has problems with delivery, a contract, the contract stating that you are willing to take any puppy back to rehome yourself to make sure they get good home's if no longer able to continue living with the original owner. Also take into consideration the health tests that need to be done before each breeding of both bitch and stud, if these are not run then you can possibly lose bitch/stud or both and possibly cause both to be sterile. And ofcourse last but not least..consider the overpoplation of pets in shelter's, rescues and on the street's...do you really want to add to this. Lastly the fact that leaving your dog/bitch intact could cause them to have health issues in the future.
> 
> Just a few things to consider when breeding as it is a great responsibility;-)


Exactly. Great post. It should never be just winging it or letting it happen. There are breed standards for a reason. She sounds like a sweetheart. It's easy to want to reproduce them cuz we love them so much.


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## princesslisa31 (Mar 31, 2009)

wow a lot of response,thanks  I can deffo see hwere you guys are all coming from on the breeding issue,obviously at only 12 weeks that would be a long way of even if I wanted to,I will ask my vet about her being done tomorrow see what he says.
I havnt heard od the continental kennel club before I will have to look into that one and see what thats all about.
luckily in england we dont have chis in rescue homes YET they are still such a new breed here and everyone loves them but I guess in 20/30 years we will have have a big problem with some being unloved


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

princesslisa31 said:


> luckily in england we dont have chis in rescue homes YET they are still such a new breed here and everyone loves them but I guess in 20/30 years we will have have a big problem with some being unloved



We sadly do have Chihuahuas in rescue now, I was asked by local rescue friends last year if I wanted one that was looking for a home 
I've also seen them on rescue web sites in the UK and I know Chihuahua specific rescue deal with them.

Personally I think we will see an increase in the problem well within 5 years unfortunately...

I wouldn't waste your time or money registering your girl with any of the half baked "registration" clubs that are available, they don't mean a jot to anyone.
If anything they flag up dodgy breeders.

Barbara x


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## guest185 (Oct 27, 2008)

You can get hashed papers too and I have heard of a few people fixing them so they can sell KC. If you want to breed properly the best thing to do is research and find a breeder that can give you a full history of a bitch's pedigree. You want to be able to trace it yourself too to make sure there are no anomalies. 

At the same time though, for a pet, papers are not necessary - and although nice to have (?) I don't think everyone who want's a chi simply must pay the extra to have papers if all they want is a pet.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

*Julie* said:


> At the same time though, for a pet, papers are not necessary - and although nice to have (?) I don't think everyone who want's a chi simply must pay the extra to have papers if all they want is a pet.


I wouldn't touch a breeder who refused to give me a dogs pedigree or expected me to pay extra for it  Hey they charge enough to include it 

A breeder of any dog who doesn't automatically supply papers is very dubious...in my opinion 

Barbara x


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## guest185 (Oct 27, 2008)

in your opinion


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

*Julie* said:


> in your opinion


Yes, that is what I said 

Barbara x


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## Kristin (Nov 12, 2004)

Lina could have been registered, but I never bothered with it. I didn't want to breed her and I didn't want to show her. She was just for me to love on . Boss couldn't be registered, his parents are purebred but they weren't registered. I agree with the other girls too that say there are enough dogs in the pounds/rescues that are from an owner that has a dog with "the best personality" and is "so cute". They're all so cute, that's why we love them. But that doesn't mean they should reproduce.


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## princesslisa31 (Mar 31, 2009)

you have seen some in rescues already? I did look into getting a chi from rescue centre but I couldnt find one anywhere.


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## princesslisa31 (Mar 31, 2009)

a lot of breeders do actually charge a lot more for the papers. my friend got a long haired boy the day after I got bambi. off a lay whos dogs were in shows and all sorts. on the phone she said for you to have the boys papers its an extra £ 60.00...which my friend did. and to be honest I think my pup with no papers is better looking and certainly has a better temperment even without "proven" paper breeding!


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

A lot of breeder's will do this in hope's that the buyer will not breed or at least if they do then the buyer cannot ruin the breeder's lines. I see this alot but it is usually quite a lot more for paper's or for full registration...$500.00 or more. Just having a contract these days stating you cannot breed the dog is not enough because there are so many shady breeder's out there that have found a way around this. So if they do not give you paper's then you cannot ruin the line that they have worked so hard in preserving.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

princesslisa31 said:


> you have seen some in rescues already? I did look into getting a chi from rescue centre but I couldnt find one anywhere.


There was one available in Tyne and Wear (the one I was offered last year.)

Keep checking online rescue sites and calling local ones. There are also Chihuahua crosses cropping up, as more people are breeding them 

Do try the British Chihuahua Club website for contacts 

Barbara x


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Yoshismom said:


> A lot of breeder's will do this in hope's that the buyer will not breed or at least if they do then the buyer cannot ruin the breeder's lines. I see this alot but it is usually quite a lot more for paper's or for full registration...$500.00 or more. Just having a contract these days stating you cannot breed the dog is not enough because there are so many shady breeder's out there that have found a way around this. So if they do not give you paper's then you cannot ruin the line that they have worked so hard in preserving.


They could give you papers but place endorsements meaning the puppies can't be KC registered. Obviously not giving papers doesn't mean the pups won't be bred from.

Barbara x


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

That is what limited registration means here and it is not fool proof. There are still breeder's that somehow find their way around that from my understanding;-)


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

I guess it's different everywhere. My breeder charges 600 for males and 750 for females, across the board. I believe that comes with limited registration but she simply wants to talk with her buyers and find out if they would be breeding for the right reasons and all that. It's totally to preserve the lines and I don't blame them one bit. All their hard work shouldn't go down the drain because we want to reproduce and we think we know what we are doing. I have so much respect for these breeders. I have never registered one of mine but I like having the papers. It makes me feel secure for what I paid for. If I want a chi, I want the papers. I know it sounds silly, but it makes me feel more secure. There are so many backyard breeders and people that have no idea what they are doing. The truly respectable breeders that spend more than what they make are getting my money. They deserve it. They put their heart and soul into it and they are the people that I want to give my business too. Just my humble opinion.


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Yoshismom said:


> That is what limited registration means here and it is not fool proof. There are still breeder's that somehow find their way around that from my understanding;-)


Not sure how you could do that in the UK? A breeder needs to lift the endorsement themselves?

I do agree with what has been said about pedigrees being no guarantee. But to start selling and buying dogs without one is a slippery slope and leaves even more room for deceit and delusion! By those breeders so inclined.
In my thoughts... 

Barbara x


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

Yes here in the states it has to be lifted to full registration as well.

The breeder of my Great Dane is the one that has explained it to me but basically she has said that she has had 2 slip under the radar and breed the limited registration dogs and it messed her line up. She is very funny about who she sells her dogs to now. I know AKC make's mistake's from time to time so maybe it was a glitch? But apparently there are some breeder's out there that know how to get paper's out of a limited registration. Nothing suprises me these days though:-(


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## Rosiesmum (Oct 14, 2007)

Hi,
I'm curious here 

While I can fully understand your breeder not wanting her dogs bred from and I think it's terribe if apparent pet owners lie, then do in fact breed!

What I can't understand is how it would mess up a breeders line? Having her pet quality pups bred from, while underirable, wouldn't affect her breeding plans? Or her line?
I hope I have explained that okay!

Say you were the top Chi breeder in the UK. I bought a bitch from you as a pet, no papers or endorsed ones and had a litter. While you might not be happy about it...How could that affect your line? Or breeding hopes/plans for the future?

Thank you for your patience!

Barbara x


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

Well it is according to whether they can still get the pedigree as full or not. If they someone how get around the limited registration and are able to register the litter somehow then that show's her dog in the pedigree being bred to an undesirable dog in turn this would throw a kink her line that has been bettering the breed for years and establishing HER line. I think it basically give's her line a bad name when coupling it with bad dogs. I will look for a link that show's how a Champion dog can sire with a byb dog and how different the pups can turn out so quickly. This rings true without paper's as well. You start breeding that dog and throwing that name around and then everybody realizes that they have a dog that is Ch. sired so all of these people want to breed to your stud or bitch. This in hopes that the dog with the well known kennel name will pull more puppy buyers, shady breeder's will jump all over this as well as people first starting out that have know idea what is going on. Next thing you know that dog has fathered or mothered all kinds of puppies and they are looking way out of the standard and very unhealthy and who's name does it go back to...The original breeder with the great line:-(

Does that make sense?

I will look for the link.


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## Yoshismom (Jul 6, 2005)

Here is a picture to help, I cant find the link but this is a pic from the link..










This happened in only one or two generations. It can happen so quickly with any breed. Mind you the adult male in the 2nd picture is not stacked as the other dane is but you can see how high in his rear he is, there are so many faults to the 2nd dane that it would take me some time to list.


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## *Chloe* (Feb 6, 2006)

Rosiesmum said:


> Say you were the top Chi breeder in the UK. I bought a bitch from you as a pet, no papers or endorsed ones and had a litter. While you might not be happy about it...How could that affect your line? Or breeding hopes/plans for the future?


as michelle said its the breeders reputation they are worried about - like on epupz the ads are full of people advertising off the back of top affix's and listing these in their adverts, if i was a reputable breeder and had been breeding good quality sound chis for 20 odd years i hate to see my line being exploited like that - i can appreciate why breeders endorse pedigrees


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