# Chihuahua Skull Structure?



## $Fizzel$ (Apr 6, 2009)

I asked this in one of my last posts, but I haven't received an answer yet. I have been told that there are two types of skulls. One where the ears are positioned straight up, and the other where the ears are on the side. I know this to be true, I have both in my male and female. I just what to know the terms. I have google what I believe to be every combination of phrases can't seem to find it at all on the net.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

$Fizzel$ said:


> I asked this in one of my last posts, but I haven't received an answer yet. I have been told that there are two types of skulls. One where the ears are positioned straight up, and the other where the ears are on the side. I know this to be true, I have both in my male and female. I just what to know the terms. I have google what I believe to be every combination of phrases can't seem to find it at all on the net.


Are you talking about deer head and apple head? I don't think deer head is an official term but apple head is. Not sure if that's what you mean???


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## $Fizzel$ (Apr 6, 2009)

It must be. All I know is that Harvey's head and Irish's head are way different. I have not see this in many breeds. I love to research and this is something I would love to learn more about. Especially in breeding. Witch is the dominate and or submissive trait. Apple sounds right, but if one has a term I am sure the other has to. Even if it's more unknown.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

You probably won't find much on the varied skulls because AKC only recognizes Chihuahua's as the breed standard.

Here is what AKC's standard is for their ears. Ears – Large, erect type ears, held more upright when alert, but flaring to the sides at a 45 degree angle when in repose, giving breadth between the ears. 

Chi's do come in all shapes and sizes even though not recognized by AKC. And I'm assuming you are referring to the "Apple Dome," vs. "Deer Head."


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

AKC Breed Standard


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## $Fizzel$ (Apr 6, 2009)

I have been to that site. It was one of the only sites that came up when I tried to look this up. It frustrates me there is not more. Chihuahuas' originated in africa. So they are an old breed. I went to www.thechihuahuaguide.com it basically said that Deer-Head is a really broad term. Man I believe in the scientific method so much. That site even seems disorganized.


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## TLI (Sep 3, 2008)

Chihuahua's originate in Mexico. You can google Deer Head, and will come up with a few sites that will give an explanation of the difference. I believe the Apple Dome is the dominant gene. However, if breeding a parent of each, you can still come up with puppies with the Deer Head.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

I'm pretty sure you're kidding at this point. Chihuahua's are believed to have originated in Mexico, not Africa. I'm not sure what scientific method you are talking about??? I think you know all this and you're just having some fun, maybe???


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## $Fizzel$ (Apr 6, 2009)

"The history of chihuahua origin states that this is the only dog originated from North America; it's not usually found in rescues. The name of the breed shows that the ancestors of this dog came from the state in Mexico with the same name, but the true breed origin is unknown." Most likely around Morocco. Well the early ancestors.


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## $Fizzel$ (Apr 6, 2009)

I am not saying that the AKC breed came from Africa, but the breed genetics sure did.


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## $Fizzel$ (Apr 6, 2009)

No Fun, I will find you some literature. I have even seen it in some documentaries. Even Dogs 101 on animal planet said the same thing. Check that show out I found it to be pretty legit. I am not trying to start a debate you have you sources, and I have mine.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

My apologies, I thought maybe you were teasing. There are several compelling theories to the origin of our precious chi. The most common being the Mexico origin. One theory is that the chi evolved from an animal that is native to Northern Africa called a fennec fox. Another interesting theory is that the chi is of European descent, to be exact, Malta. These theories are based on speculation and have yet to be conclusively proven. We will likely never for sure but there is compelling evidence to suggest that the origin lies further than Mexico.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

$Fizzel$ said:


> No Fun, I will find you some literature. I have even seen it in some documentaries. Even Dogs 101 on animal planet said the same thing. Check that show out I found it to be pretty legit. I am not trying to start a debate you have you sources, and I have mine.


Oh no, I totally believe you. I am a huge animal planet fan and I love documentaries. These are theories though. I guess you have to pick which one you prefer since they are not proven.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

Oh yea, I'm pretty sure the apple head is the dominant trait. There is a huge difference between the apple dome shape and the deer shape. I love them both. Would love to see a pic of your other one also. Do you have one?


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## Ivy's mom (Feb 15, 2008)

Wherever they came from, I'm just glad they did hee heee!!! But there is a controversy for sure.

Lori


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## $Fizzel$ (Apr 6, 2009)

I completely agree. There where Fennec Foxes exported to Europe during the start of the "companion dog". There where even early photos of Fennec Fox cross breeds. Even though lager then todays Chihuahuas'. There are striking similarities. There are to many breed corks like the need to burrow, nest, and the hiding of toys that are defiantly more fox characteristics. I have basically been doing studies on my Chis'. I went to school for Zoology there unfortunately is nothing in the field where I live. So I do adoptions for exotics. Chihuahuas' are my first domesticated animals.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

My sister's degree is in Zoology also. She is a Marine Biologist in Masachusetts. She does fascinating research. How about those foxes having huge ears, large round eyes, topping the scales at 3-1/2 to 4 lbs. and only liking their own species??? Who does that sound like???


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

Ivy's mom said:


> Wherever they came from, I'm just glad they did hee heee!!! But there is a controversy for sure.
> 
> Lori


I'm with you Lori. So glad they did. There are some neat theories.


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## $Fizzel$ (Apr 6, 2009)

I wanted to do Marine, but never really went that route. Basically because of Reptiles. If you have any of you sisters publications you should soo let me read them. I live in lowa so there is not much for exciting findings expect maybe Big Foot or May Files, yuck. The only bug I don't like. I will check out that apple head thing. I am sure there are some breeders in my area that will let me do a lose study. Maybe I can just focus on Chihuahuas' now that would just be fun. I am sure with the new styles of DNA testing we will have a conclusion soon. Although I know of no one that would put that much money behind it. I would if I could.


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## $Fizzel$ (Apr 6, 2009)

I am trying to post pics, but I can't get Photobucket to work. Do you have the same problems? If you could check for me.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

I download into photobucket, then do the IMG copy and bring it over. It's working on my end but it can be fussy. I can't imagine anyone not wanting to know more about these darlings. I'm sure they'd let you do a study. As long as it was non-intrusive, ya know? Sounds like you have a good thirst for knowledge. My sister deals mainly with the humpback whales. She is a well know researcher in the area and is often called on for disasters also. It's a neat field. There is also an interesting theory regarding them coming from China. Or the dog having the molera, which is a chi trait, found in Egypt well over 3,000 years before. Crazy.


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## $Fizzel$ (Apr 6, 2009)

This is Harvey "Apple"?










This is Irish "Deer"?










Another of Harvey and his best buddy my girls Cat Puddy.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

Okay, now we need an expert. I would honestly say that both your babies are apple domed. I could be wrong. I would love to get another opinion. I don't see the deer in either of them. I'm looking for a longer snout and skinnier, maybe longer ears??? Gosh, just my opinion. I'm gonna look again. Would love a profile of Irish.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

By the way, they are adorable. Love the one with the cat.


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## $Fizzel$ (Apr 6, 2009)

The best I can do for profile.










Thank you. I sure love my babys. I never was a small dog person then we got Irish, now we have three. Funny how that works.


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## rcj1095 (Mar 4, 2009)

I have to stick with my original posting. There are a couple of "experts" here on this forum on this topic. There's a thread not too far back called deer or apple? I'm pretty good at it but can't be 100 percent sure. I'm sticking with apple for both. You could start a new thread with their pix and title it help me - apple or deer head? That will get peoples attention. I'm curious now too. They are perfect! Smartest animals and so loving.


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## katsrevenge (Nov 24, 2008)

If they were crossed with fox, wouldn't that show up in genetic profiling???

I go with the Mexican theory. Why would conquistador types (who were warriors and strangers in a hostile land intent on gaining booty at the cost of others) bring tiny dogs that couldn't hunt or fight with them? The Mexican theory also obeys the K.I.S.S. rule. Now, there may have been convergent development or European toy dogs with a similar look (see long haired bushy chi and a pom)... but that is another story.

Lovely dogs though.


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## Rochelle (Nov 20, 2008)

I do believe Chi's, like the chinese crested and Xolo's are Canine Africanus, originating from Africa. I can't remember where I saw that and will have to do some research. When you said ""The history of chihuahua origin states that this is the only dog originated from North America; it's not usually found in rescues."
Did you mean today chi's are seldom found in rescue. If you look on Pet finder's there are hundreds of homeless chi's 
They aren't as rare as they use to be. Rochelle.

Here's another theory:
History: Chihuahuas have the rare distinction of being both the oldest breed on the American continent, but also being the smallest known breed in the world. The Chihuahua is native to Mexico, and is believed to be related to small dogs kept by the Aztec Indians. Specifically, the modern Chihuahua is believed to be the result of the breeding of the Mexican Hairless Dog or Techichi, and miniature dogs of Chinese origin brought to the Americas in the 15th and 16th centuries by the Spanish Conquistadors, possibly the Chinese Crested. Other theories maintain that the Chihuahua has been around for centuries and originated in Africa; these theorists offer as evidence the remains of a very tiny dog that was uncovered in Egypt and which shared physical characteristics of the Chihuahua. The breed is named after the Mexican State of Chihuahua, where the earliest members of the breed were found.


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## katsrevenge (Nov 24, 2008)

Hmmm.... some reading: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dog
http://www.seefido.com/html/the_dog_s_origins.htm
http://www.seefido.com/html/canine_dog_breeds.htm

From the last:


> This small dog is a native of Mexico (and a favorite of Xavier Cugat, who usually carries one in his arms), and has the distinction of being the smallest dog in the world. The Chihuahua dog comes from a pre-Columbus dog, tichichi, bred over 1500 years ago by the Toltecas. Their current name comes from a city in Mexico which is believed was where the breed began. Royalty bred them for religious practices; while the commoners bred them for food. When the Europeans arrived these dogs began spreading to local villages.
> 
> 
> They finally left their country of birth in the 1850s, when local Indians would sell them to tourists. Which is how the Chihuahua reached the US and Europe. They are strong breed which suffers from very few illnesses. However one must be careful with their size, if less than 1 kilo they may suffer from syncope and will not reach a mature age.
> ...


From the chi wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chihuahua_(dog)


> Through folklore and archeological finds, there is evidence that the breed originated in Pre-Columbian Mexico. The most common theory and most likely is that Chihuahuas are descended from the Techichi, a companion dog favoured by the Toltecs and that the modern dog developed through breeding with miniaturised Chinese dogs brought to the Americas by the Spanish Conquistadors.
> Black and tan chihuahua
> A short haired chihuahua.
> 
> ...


Yeah. They aren't that rare anymore. There is over 6,000 of them in my area on Petfinder. Who knows how many more of them are stuck in unlisted limbo.


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