# Nutritional Needs



## v_st (Oct 19, 2012)

Hi all, I've seen many discussion about which dog food brand is better than another on the Internet. I'm trying to make a decision myself to choose between dog kibble, home cooked, raw and mixes of the mentioned.

What I'd like to find out is the deciding factors which food is better than another nutritionally. I noticed some has as much as 40% protein content, while some is around 30%. So, what is a requirement for a fairly active chihuahua and chihuahua puppy?

Do they have something similar to what our human has, like a DRI or USFDA DV?

What will be happening if they took too much or too little any of the macro nutrients (protein, carbohydrate & fat)?

This will help me greatly on how to formulate Keonna diet very. Thanks in advance


----------



## Evelyn (Oct 14, 2012)

I was going crazy trying to figure out dog foods, and that is before we got Ike. I started feeding my Pug a food called Blue and wilderness Blue. Then when we brought Ike home, he was on puppy chow , I changed him to Blue small breed puppy. It seems to be working for us.


----------



## susan davis (Mar 25, 2011)

I use mostly a 5 star kibble like NOW, Fromm, Blue Buffalo, California Natural (limited ingredients) and others. I switch bags every time for variety, but always buy the best. I just add some chicken, ham, pork to their meal sometimes. Not every day. They are all healthy.


----------



## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

Basically, it's important to look at the species. A dog is a descendant of a wolf. What do wolves eat? Prey. That's what their bodies are made to digest and process. Although they are opportunistic scavengers (meaning they'll eat just about anything offered if it's yummy) but meat/protein is what nature intended for them. 

So, the meal plan we follow is a ratio of 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ; which is the breakdown of whole prey. Since it makes more sense for us to buy larger cuts of meat than whole prey (like mice, chicks, other small birds, etc.) we balance those ratios out over a week's time. I'm not sure if I can attach document files via a thread, but if you are interested I'd be happy to send you a little 2 page meal plan and raw diet "cheat sheet" that I wrote up to send with my foster dogs. Another great place to ask for specific information on nutrition is dogfoodchat.com as the members there are also very well educated! Hope that helps. =)


----------



## v_st (Oct 19, 2012)

Currently I'm giving my girl 30% Proformance Lamb and Rice slightly soaked in cow milk, plain sautéed sliced beef steak and top with 1 tbs of virgin coconut oil. Reason being so is because I felt the kibble, which send by the breeder is under par.

Ultimately, I think I'd change to a better quality kibble. Just not now, as I still have months of supply from breeder. I'm contemplating between Canidae, TOTW and Orijen, mixed with Primrose oil, apple cider vinegar, coconut oil, fish oil and some real fresh meat. Based on informative I've gathered and my lifestyle.

Going all raw is not really my interest yet. Although it seems logical to have them eat what nature intended for them, having food that's clearly labelled assure me she's getting what she need, wholesomely. Aren't we human are eating foods that not meant to be eaten nowadays?

That's why my post is seeking for some information about hard fact nutritional needs data than which food is better than another...



LostLakeLua said:


> Basically, it's important to look at the species. A dog is a descendant of a wolf. What do wolves eat? Prey. That's what their bodies are made to digest and process. Although they are opportunistic scavengers (meaning they'll eat just about anything offered if it's yummy) but meat/protein is what nature intended for them.
> 
> So, the meal plan we follow is a ratio of 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ; which is the breakdown of whole prey. Since it makes more sense for us to buy larger cuts of meat than whole prey (like mice, chicks, other small birds, etc.) we balance those ratios out over a week's time. I'm not sure if I can attach document files via a thread, but if you are interested I'd be happy to send you a little 2 page meal plan and raw diet "cheat sheet" that I wrote up to send with my foster dogs. Another great place to ask for specific information on nutrition is dogfoodchat.com as the members there are also very well educated! Hope that helps. =)


Yes! A very informative website indeed! I think that's enough to keep me busy reading for days! Thank you very much.

Since you're feeding raw, how do you prepare them? Do you thaw them from freezer, unfreeze in fridge or keep it up to room temperature before feeding? I'm spending about 15 mins each meal for Keonna and it's already too much for me. I had to leave work earlier than usual, rushed home to make sure she get her dinner on time, and not too late...


----------



## LostLakeLua (Sep 6, 2009)

v_st said:


> Since you're feeding raw, how do you prepare them? Do you thaw them from freezer, unfreeze in fridge or keep it up to room temperature before feeding? I'm spending about 15 mins each meal for Keonna and it's already too much for me. I had to leave work earlier than usual, rushed home to make sure she get her dinner on time, and not too late...


I tried to attach the file, but since it's a Word Document it won't attach. If you PM me your email, I'd be happy to send it to you. Same goes for anyone else interested, just PM me your email and I'll send it out to everyone. 

To answer your questions, I prepare most meals in advance when we purchase the meat, before it even goes in the freezer. Since our dogs each get a 2oz meal, we cut up whatever we get into meal sized portions and freeze them in bags. The night before, we take out enough pieces and put them in a sealed plastic container in the fridge. That way when feeding time comes, we just take it outside and everyone gets fed. Since we cut up everything in advance it makes it much easier, and there's not much prep time before we actually serve it. Also, freezer burn only effects the taste of COOKED meat, so a dog won't notice if you've had to re-freeze portions to save for later! Hope that helps. =)


----------



## v_st (Oct 19, 2012)

LostLakeLua said:


> I tried to attach the file, but since it's a Word Document it won't attach. If you PM me your email, I'd be happy to send it to you. Same goes for anyone else interested, just PM me your email and I'll send it out to everyone.


After a week of mixing her kibble with fresh meat, Keonna finally learnt that she can pick out all the kibble and chow down just fresh meat. Tried to get different brands of sample to try, even mixing with canned food, she just refuses all.

Spoke to the vet, principally he has no objection of giving her fresh meal but highlighted that it could potentially troublesome if she ever get hospitalized and refuse to eat. They will have no any other trick to make her eat. Typically they'll offer sick dogs their usual kibble, mixed with canned food if necessary and maybe fresh meal as last option.

Do you have such incident you may share with me?


----------



## krbshappy71 (Oct 1, 2012)

I am not a Raw Food feeder but I just wanted to pipe up that if I was feeding raw and a vet told me to serve less quality I case my dog got sick they wouldn't be able to have other options I would be finding a new vet that was more in line with my beliefs. If I believe raw is best I certainly don't want a vet telling me "no, serve less quality most of their life so we have an option when it gets sick!" Maybe that isn't what you meant but that is how I interpreted it. I would be seeking a vet that was more supportive of raw feeding.


----------



## Smith (Jun 7, 2010)

krbshappy71 said:


> I am not a Raw Food feeder but I just wanted to pipe up that if I was feeding raw and a vet told me to serve less quality I case my dog got sick they wouldn't be able to have other options I would be finding a new vet that was more in line with my beliefs. If I believe raw is best I certainly don't want a vet telling me "no, serve less quality most of their life so we have an option when it gets sick!" Maybe that isn't what you meant but that is how I interpreted it. I would be seeking a vet that was more supportive of raw feeding.


I agree with this, it's sort of a backwards reason to not feed raw. I'm a raw feeder. Widget had to have emergency surgery a little over a year ago, because he'd eaten a foreign object and it had become a blockage in his intestines. He went from the emergency vet to a vet near my home when the e-vet's closed (they're only open hours normal vets are closed) that I didn't know well (I had just moved to the area). Because the surgery was on his intestine, they wanted to make sure he could eat before they sent him home. He wasn't very keen to eat kibble, so they called and asked if I could bring in some of what he ate at home. Honestly, he wasn't too gung-ho to eat raw at that point, either. He was stressed, felt icky and just wanted to go home. The vet ended up feeding him some of his own lunch (egg sandwich  ). I really liked his versatile attitude which is how he became the vet I use for all my dogs.

Raw is healthier, easier to digest and more nutritious than kibble or canned food. For all those reasons, sick dogs can and should eat raw, too! The idea that kibble would be 'gentler' on the stomach of an ill dog is just backwards.


----------



## v_st (Oct 19, 2012)

krbshappy71 said:


> If I believe raw is best I certainly don't want a vet telling me "no, serve less quality most of their life so we have an option when it gets sick!" Maybe that isn't what you meant but that is how I interpreted it. I would be seeking a vet that was more supportive of raw feeding.


Well, that's another way of interpreting what's the vet meant...



Smith said:


> I agree with this, it's sort of a backwards reason to not feed raw.


To answer both of you. Unfortunately, animal healthcare and welfare in where I'm staying is horrible. To deviate a little the topic, there's very vicious systemic fault in our society toward animals.

I have little trust in most neighbourhood vet clinic in my city, too many bad experience shared in our local forum, like improper procedures, lack of care causing animal death. That limit my option to only few large scale, reputable veterinary hospital. Among them, one is known for overcharging, one is a university's teaching hospital and another is tucked in a high-end expatriate pool area. The teaching hospital is not my option too because of animal cruelty within their doctorate research facility. (Read hyperlink)

In general, plenty to people here aren't that kind to animals, although not all but it's no surprise to see comment like this, captured from a local forum:

"The total bill of RM3000 plus is insane, as "technically" speaking, one could put their dog to sleep and have more than enough cash to buy a new dog."

Even my approach how to rear Keonna brought me some criticize being unnecessary too. Hope this explain the situation of the possibilities of me getting another vet.

Although above gives an overall picture of animal healthcare and welfare here, that's not the whole picture, there are individuals who genuinely care for animals too. Just that experimenting with different vets seems too much of risks for me. :sad5:


----------



## missydawn (May 29, 2012)

We chose not to feed the raw,we use blue buffalo wilderness,small breed.They all look healthy and beautiful.We feed a heaping 1/8 of a cup twice a day to our chihuahuas.


----------



## Rach_Honey (Jan 13, 2012)

Have you thought of pre-made raw? I use K9 Natural for Honey - it is freeze dried raw, already balanced with everything she needs. 
I also feed a raw meaty bone or chicken wing 4 or 5 times a week. She is happy and very healthy. 
A lot of people use Ziwipeak too - this is another pre made raw.


----------



## v_st (Oct 19, 2012)

missydawn said:


> We chose not to feed the raw,we use blue buffalo wilderness,small breed.They all look healthy and beautiful.We feed a heaping 1/8 of a cup twice a day to our chihuahuas.


Thanks for the recommendation! That do seems to be a good product! 



rach_palin said:


> Have you thought of pre-made raw? I use K9 Natural for Honey - it is freeze dried raw, already balanced with everything she needs.
> I also feed a raw meaty bone or chicken wing 4 or 5 times a week. She is happy and very healthy.
> A lot of people use Ziwipeak too - this is another pre made raw.


I did thought of that too, it gives the balance between raw feeding and convenience of manufactured products. Sad part is, both K9 Natural and Ziwipeak is not available here in KL. I'll need to buy online or take a 5 hours drive (or 40 mins flight) to buy from Singapore... 


Anyway, after much of reading and talking to countless dog keepers. I've learnt that there's very limited published guideline on a fur-kid's nutrition needs. The best way is to look at label to seek for claims whether they meet or tested under AAFCO nutrient profile.

Also, I've came to the conclusion that I shall stick to commercial food for various reasons. By reading its guaranteed analysis, I know what I'm getting for Keonna and how to supplement it with other products.

I've also learnt that it is a bad move to not have a fixed diet formula for the little fella. Reason why I started giving her beef is because I was hoping she'll eat both the kibble and fresh meat together, this experience proves otherwise.

What I'm going to do is to have her switch her back to commercial products by strictly offering her just that, no bribe, no treat and no mercy. Luckily she's eating kibble and canned food mix again this morning after refusing it for 2 meals, although not full portion yet.

She's currently eating TOTW Pacific Stream Puppy Formula, mixed with Addiction Hunter’s Venison Stew at 50 - 50 ratio, added with Nutri-Stat since she's not eating full and her usual coconut oil. I'll start introducing Primrose when she's fully accepted her food.

I'm sorry for the confusion I've brought myself into for being indecisive about what food she should eat, and causes Keonna the slight starvation. Another good lesson learnt indeed!

Thank you very much for everyone kind help and sharing :coolwink:


----------



## LittleGemma (Apr 1, 2012)

As much as I would love to feed Gemma 100% raw, we cannot afford that here in Sweden. I feed her grain-free Acana kibble and she gets raw meals for dinner. She also gets salmon oil in her dinner. She's been on a break from the raw meals since she had allergies to something she was eating, so I'm trying to rule out what it was before I start feeding her everything again. Acana is a great food, though. Probably the best kibble you can get. I would recommend it. Gemma eats the Grasslands flavor which is lamb and has no problems with it.


----------



## v_st (Oct 19, 2012)

LittleGemma said:


> I feed her grain-free Acana kibble and she gets raw meals for dinner. She also gets salmon oil in her dinner. She's been on a break from the raw meals since she had allergies to something she was eating, so I'm trying to rule out what it was before I start feeding her everything again.


I'm sorry about her allergies problem, hope it'll be solved soon.

Just a little question, what I've learnt so far Keonna don't switch that easily between raw and kibble. It takes her some starve before she's willing eat kibble again, once tasted fresh meat. How do you do it?


----------

