# I need some serious help



## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

I need some serious help with Ella. If you already know her background skip to the next paragraph. If you don't then, first off we rescued Ella back in July 2013. She was 1.5 years old and already living at her second home. We were told that she was abused at her first home and we quickly gathered that she was being neglected at her second home. She met Chloe and they got along great. We decided to bring her home with us to her 3rd home. She had never been on leash before, had long nails, 2 rows of teeth because she had never been given anything to chew on to help her baby teeth fall out, she wasn't spayed, and she was fed Ol Roy canned dog food. We quickly noticed that she had some issues. It was obvious that she had been abused. 

Ella has always been fairly submissive which worked well for our family because Chloe is more dominant. I'm not super into the whole pack leader Caesar Milan stuff, but it is pretty clear that both dogs viewed me as the pack leader. They always mind me better than they do my husband. Both dogs sleep in the bed with us. 

A few weeks ago, Ella was sleeping with me and when I turned over it woke her up and she got up and went to the other side of the bed to sleep with DH. Once I got situated, I reached over to put Ella back with me. I had barely touched her back when she whipped around and bit me. It was very aggressive with no warning at all. It was very scary. This is the only time she has bit me, but since this incident she tries to bite my husband almost every time he tries to pick her up or touches her. Again, she gives no warning and immediately snaps. I took her to the vet to make sure that she wasn't injured and he said that everything was fine with her physically. We talked a lot about her anxiety and behavior and he felt like she definitely has some type of mental issues, but didn't give me any kind of a diagnosis. He told me that they do not get a lot of training in school on how to handle behavioral issues and told me to look into a behavioralist.

Our biggest issue with all of this is that I am pregnant. I don't want to just give up on Ella, but I can't have a dog in my house that I can't trust when the baby comes. This is very very hard for me because she is part of our family and I am not the type to rehome dogs. DH and I have talked extensively about this, and have decided that we are going to work with her and do everything we can, but if there is no improvement we have to put our human child first and rehome Ella before the baby comes. 

We've looked into getting a behavioralist to work with her, but I don't know if any of them are good in my area. From our research it will likely cost $750-$1000, and I just don't feel like I that is something we can spend right now between the medical costs of the baby and buying everything the baby needs. 

We want to try to work with her at home and we are extremely dedicated to trying to fix this. If anyone knows what we can do please let me know. We are wondering if she is trying to outrank DH and that is why she is showing the aggression only towards him? 

I truly want constructive advice, and I would really appreciated it if everyone refrained from telling me a dog is a lifetime commitment. This has been very hard on us. Unless you've been in this situation you don't know how you would react. We are completely heartbroken.


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

So glad to hear you are trying all you can with Ella ,i wish you luck and yes your baby must come first.


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## MMS (Aug 2, 2012)

I'm going to guess (not being there, or her, it will only ever be a guess) that you are dealing with some PTSD here, which can be triggered by any number of things: in this case, your touching her startled her. She was probably groggy and being next to your husband, thought it was him and is taking it out on him. It could also be likely that her abuser was male, fueling the fire more. But again, that is just speculation.

I suggest everyone stop trying to move her around for a while, let her settle down again. Why does she _need_ to be picked up? Your husband is going to have to start all over with getting her comfortable with him again. Don't try to force anything on her. Lots of reminders that you love her and she is safe. I would also definitely suggest spending the money on the Behaviorist. It will be good to at least get a professional opinion on the situation, and a recommendation of whether she will be safe with a baby in the house.


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

MMS said:


> I'm going to guess (not being there, or her, it will only ever be a guess) that you are dealing with some PTSD here, which can be triggered by any number of things: in this case, your touching her startled her. She was probably groggy and being next to your husband, thought it was him and is taking it out on him. It could also be likely that her abuser was male, fueling the fire more. But again, that is just speculation.
> 
> I suggest everyone stop trying to move her around for a while, let her settle down again. Why does she _need_ to be picked up? Your husband is going to have to start all over with getting her comfortable with him again. Don't try to force anything on her. Lots of reminders that you love her and she is safe. I would also definitely suggest spending the money on the Behaviorist. It will be good to at least get a professional opinion on the situation, and a recommendation of whether she will be safe with a baby in the house.


Her abuser was a man. So, what you're saying makes a lot of sense. We've worked very hard with Ella, but she came to us with no training. She doesn't respond well to training at all. We've tried multiple trainers and they can't get anywhere with her on basic obedience. So, she doesn't come when called or anything like that. The only way she will go outside to go to the bathroom is if we pick her up and take her outside unless she just wants to go outside. We have a lot of issues with her pottying, so we can't wait until she feels like going out or she will have an accident. Because she hasn't responded well to training is another reason we're afraid to spend the money on a behavioralist.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I am sorry you are going through this. I have similar issues with Delilah, and I know if I were pregnant I would have a real problem on my hands, so I totally sympathise. Do you have insurance? Some policies cover behavioural issues, I know the cost of one to one training can be prohibitively expensive.
I don't believe in dominance theory either, so I don't think she is trying to 'outrank' your husband.
Anxious dogs are usually motivated by fear. Do you think she was scared of being removed from the bed? Some dogs are naturally touchy/defensive when they are sleepy too and just want leaving alone.
The first thing I would try is having her sleep in her crate instead. (I think she is already crate trained isn't she?) Have the crate by your bed so she doesn't feel abandoned, but the crate is her own space. When the baby comes you will have to teach him/her to never bother Ella when she is in her crate.
How did you and he react when she first snapped? If it got her what she wanted, ie not being removed from the bed, or being left alone, that behaviour will have been reinforced by the reward of staying in the bed. If snapping worked for her she will continue to use it as a way of getting what she wants. It is vital you avoid getting into into situations where you think she will try and bite. So don't let your husband pick her up for now. Is she ok when you try and pick her up?
I would have your husband take over Ella's training entirely, so they bond again. She only gets food or attention if it is provided by him. You need to take a step back and let him be the one who makes Ella's decisions. He should work up to touching her if that is beyond her threshold atm. Don't let Ella make any decisions for herself, your husband should tell her where to sit, sleep etc and give her all her meals if possible. She needs to view him as the source of all the good things in her life. He should do lots of short training sessions (not important what he is teaching her, it is a trust/bonding exercise) and ideally take her for her walks (without Chloe.)
These are things that will change her attitude to your husband and generally build her confidence. It may be worth getting a good positive method trainer to come and assess her for just an hour. I am only guessing what may be scaring her, it might be really obvious to a trainer who is seeing her in the flesh.


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> I am sorry you are going through this. I have similar issues with Delilah, and I know if I were pregnant I would have a real problem on my hands, so I totally sympathise. Do you have insurance? Some policies cover behavioural issues, I know the cost of one to one training can be prohibitively expensive.
> I don't believe in dominance theory either, so I don't think she is trying to 'outrank' your husband.
> Anxious dogs are usually motivated by fear. Do you think she was scared of being removed from the bed? Some dogs are naturally touchy/defensive when they are sleepy too and just want leaving alone.
> The first thing I would try is having her sleep in her crate instead. (I think she is already crate trained isn't she?) Have the crate by your bed so she doesn't feel abandoned, but the crate is her own space. When the baby comes you will have to teach him/her to never bother Ella when she is in her crate.
> ...


Thank you! We're working on crate training her, but it's been a long process. She loves her crate if the door is open, but she's still getting used to it with the door closed. We put her in there and give her treats and raw meat, so that it is associated with good things. Is this right? We don't have insurance. When she snaps now, we tell her no assertively. Then she gets picked up and taken outside anyway. Is this what we need to be doing? Should we do something else when she bites?

I honestly have no idea what is causing this behavior suddenly now. She's always been a fearful dog, but she's never shown fear before of my husband. She loves him. He's also not a very intimidating guy which I think helps her. She hasn't shown this behavior towards me, so I can pick her up. Do you think I should be the one to take her outside then every time? 

DH has been trying to do short training sessions with her every evening because he read that any kind of training helps. I guess it doesn't matter that she doesn't really ever learn anything? As long as they're working together and it's a positive experience for her. 

I'm not sure if you're into it, but would the Nothing in Life is Free method be good for her?


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## MMS (Aug 2, 2012)

Lindsayj said:


> Her abuser was a man. So, what you're saying makes a lot of sense. We've worked very hard with Ella, but she came to us with no training. She doesn't respond well to training at all. We've tried multiple trainers and they can't get anywhere with her on basic obedience. So, she doesn't come when called or anything like that. The only way she will go outside to go to the bathroom is if we pick her up and take her outside unless she just wants to go outside. We have a lot of issues with her pottying, so we can't wait until she feels like going out or she will have an accident. Because she hasn't responded well to training is another reason we're afraid to spend the money on a behavioralist.



That does make things a bit trickier. 



Wicked Pixie said:


> Anxious dogs are usually motivated by fear. Do you think she was scared of being removed from the bed? Some dogs are naturally touchy/defensive when they are sleepy too and just want leaving alone.
> The first thing I would try is having her sleep in her crate instead. (I think she is already crate trained isn't she?) Have the crate by your bed so she doesn't feel abandoned, but the crate is her own space. When the baby comes you will have to teach him/her to never bother Ella when she is in her crate.
> How did you and he react when she first snapped? If it got her what she wanted, ie not being removed from the bed, or being left alone, that behaviour will have been reinforced by the reward of staying in the bed. If snapping worked for her she will continue to use it as a way of getting what she wants. It is vital you avoid getting into into situations where you think she will try and bite. So don't let your husband pick her up for now. Is she ok when you try and pick her up?
> I would have your husband take over Ella's training entirely, so they bond again. She only gets food or attention if it is provided by him. You need to take a step back and let him be the one who makes Ella's decisions. He should work up to touching her if that is beyond her threshold atm. Don't let Ella make any decisions for herself, your husband should tell her where to sit, sleep etc and give her all her meals if possible. She needs to view him as the source of all the good things in her life. He should do lots of short training sessions (not important what he is teaching her, it is a trust/bonding exercise) and ideally take her for her walks (without Chloe.)
> These are things that will change her attitude to your husband and generally build her confidence. It may be worth getting a good positive method trainer to come and assess her for just an hour. I am only guessing what may be scaring her, it might be really obvious to a trainer who is seeing her in the flesh.


This is all good advice, if it's applicable. I would still suggest at least a consultation with a behaviorist. Were any of your trainers specialists in dogs with fear or PTSD? A standard trainer isn't likely to know how to properly deal with these issues. 

Here are some suggestions on things your husband can try to work on with her (and if she doesn't go for it, she doesn't. It's still quality bonding time)

Canine PTSD: helping traumatized dogs gain confidence and security - Nashville special needs pets | Examiner.com


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

MMS said:


> That does make things a bit trickier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Two of the trainers were just regular trainers, but one was a behavioralist who also did regular training. I got her to come by our house after we first got Ella to just tell me what I should do since I had never had a dog with any kind of issues before. But it really didn't help that much. I wish I knew someone in our area who could recommend someone good. If I knew I could get a good behavioralist, I would also be more willing to get a consultation at the very least. It just seemed like a waste of money last time because she didn't get anywhere with Ella. I don't mean this in an ugly way at all, but Ella is mentally slow. We've been working with her so much and she can't learn to do basic stuff like come when called or sit. So, I'm thinking there has to be some other approach to get her to benefit from training, but I have no idea what it could be and neither could the trainers we've tried. She doesn't get excited about treats or anything. We've tried every kind under the sun.

Thank you for the website. I'll look at that. When DH get's home I'll talk to him more about getting a consultation with a behavioralist. I'll see if I can find reviews or something like that to go by.


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## MMS (Aug 2, 2012)

Lindsayj said:


> Thank you! We're working on crate training her, but it's been a long process. She loves her crate if the door is open, but she's still getting used to it with the door closed. We put her in there and give her treats and raw meat, so that it is associated with good things. Is this right? We don't have insurance. When she snaps now, we tell her no assertively. Then she gets picked up and taken outside anyway. Is this what we need to be doing? Should we do something else when she bites?
> 
> I honestly have no idea what is causing this behavior suddenly now. She's always been a fearful dog, but she's never shown fear before of my husband. She loves him. He's also not a very intimidating guy which I think helps her. She hasn't shown this behavior towards me, so I can pick her up. Do you think I should be the one to take her outside then every time?
> 
> ...


It sounds like you're handling the situation. I do suggest that at least for now, you be the only one to pics her up -- until she is once again comfortable being picked up by your husband. Let her make that decision. 

It is good that he's working with her already. Do you think that she is CHOOSING not to learn, and you're allowing it? You can try the NILIF method if that is the case. If you feel that it's more of a "she doesn't/can't learn" situation, then NILIF won't be effective, and will just make the whole situation more frustrating for everyone involved, which is not where you want to go right now. Even if you can get a phone consult with a Behaviorist, I would definitely go that route. Not to sound like a broken record, but it's probably your best avenue for real answers.

Believe me, I know what it's like to be stressing about money. We don't have insurance either (heck, I don't even have it for myself!) and I don't know what I'd do, were it not for carecredit! Have you looked into that yet?


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## susan davis (Mar 25, 2011)

I'm so sorry about ella. I wonder if this dog was so abused that maybe she has an old brain injury? I also wonder if an anti-anxiety medication might be of help to her?? I would also recommend that she spend the night in her crate. Maybe you could put the crate at the foot of the bed/beside the bed? That way she could feel safe and not be put in the position of being touched/picked up. I would avoid anything that makes her snap/bite for now. You don't want to put her in the position of having to make her snap/bite. 

I had a pitbull mix dog that had been terribly abused with match burns all over her at 4 months of age. She was tied up at the vet's when he came in. Two days from starvation too. After a month, he offered her to me. I took her. She adored me, and did anything I asked of her. I had a mother, who told me months later that this dog was showing her teeth at her. It became obvious that the dog knew that my mom was old and elderly, and needed to be 'taken care of', by the dog! By the time she was 2 yrs old the vet was telling me to euthanize her. After a terrible incident where the back of my mom's hand was torn, I decided that I couldn't take any more chances and did euthanize her. Horrible. You just have to make unpleasant decisions sometimes.


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## MMS (Aug 2, 2012)

Lindsayj said:


> Two of the trainers were just regular trainers, but one was a behavioralist who also did regular training. I got her to come by our house after we first got Ella to just tell me what I should do since I had never had a dog with any kind of issues before. But it really didn't help that much. I wish I knew someone in our area who could recommend someone good. If I knew I could get a good behavioralist, I would also be more willing to get a consultation at the very least. It just seemed like a waste of money last time because she didn't get anywhere with Ella. I don't mean this in an ugly way at all, but Ella is mentally slow. We've been working with her so much and she can't learn to do basic stuff like come when called or sit. So, I'm thinking there has to be some other approach to get her to benefit from training, but I have no idea what it could be and neither could the trainers we've tried. She doesn't get excited about treats or anything. We've tried every kind under the sun.
> 
> Thank you for the website. I'll look at that. When DH get's home I'll talk to him more about getting a consultation with a behavioralist. I'll see if I can find reviews or something like that to go by.


Haha, I think we're posting about the same time... this thread's not going to make much sense to look back on :daisy:

You say she has some mental slowness, she may not be able to learn in the common sense, but the training should still provide the bonding and trust. 

If she will let you put a harness on her, maybe also let your husband keep her attached to him all the time when he's home, like you would a new puppy. That way he can guide her outside for potty time without having to pick her up...?


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

MMS said:


> It sounds like you're handling the situation. I do suggest that at least for now, you be the only one to pics her up -- until she is once again comfortable being picked up by your husband. Let her make that decision.
> 
> It is good that he's working with her already. Do you think that she is CHOOSING not to learn, and you're allowing it? You can try the NILIF method if that is the case. If you feel that it's more of a "she doesn't/can't learn" situation, then NILIF won't be effective, and will just make the whole situation more frustrating for everyone involved, which is not where you want to go right now. Even if you can get a phone consult with a Behaviorist, I would definitely go that route. Not to sound like a broken record, but it's probably your best avenue for real answers.
> 
> Believe me, I know what it's like to be stressing about money. We don't have insurance either (heck, I don't even have it for myself!) and I don't know what I'd do, were it not for carecredit! Have you looked into that yet?


I'm pretty sure that she is unable to learn. We've tried so many different things and incentives, that I think she just is just not very smart. I don't know what to call it, but I've often wondered if she has the equivalent of a low IQ in people. I wonder if I could get her insurance at this point or is it too late?


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

MMS said:


> Haha, I think we're posting about the same time... this thread's not going to make much sense to look back on :daisy:
> 
> You say she has some mental slowness, she may not be able to learn in the common sense, but the training should still provide the bonding and trust.
> 
> If she will let you put a harness on her, maybe also let your husband keep her attached to him all the time when he's home, like you would a new puppy. That way he can guide her outside for potty time without having to pick her up...?


We could try the leash thing. She walks decently now on a leash, but she can become fearful if the leash tugs at her at all, so I'm not sure it will work, but it might be worth a try to see how she does. I really appreciate all of your help!


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

susan davis said:


> I'm so sorry about ella. I wonder if this dog was so abused that maybe she has an old brain injury? I also wonder if an anti-anxiety medication might be of help to her?? I would also recommend that she spend the night in her crate. Maybe you could put the crate at the foot of the bed/beside the bed? That way she could feel safe and not be put in the position of being touched/picked up. I would avoid anything that makes her snap/bite for now. You don't want to put her in the position of having to make her snap/bite.
> 
> I had a pitbull mix dog that had been terribly abused with match burns all over her at 4 months of age. She was tied up at the vet's when he came in. Two days from starvation too. After a month, he offered her to me. I took her. She adored me, and did anything I asked of her. I had a mother, who told me months later that this dog was showing her teeth at her. It became obvious that the dog knew that my mom was old and elderly, and needed to be 'taken care of', by the dog! By the time she was 2 yrs old the vet was telling me to euthanize her. After a terrible incident where the back of my mom's hand was torn, I decided that I couldn't take any more chances and did euthanize her. Horrible. You just have to make unpleasant decisions sometimes.


I'm not exactly sure how abused she was. We were told that she was verbally abused for sure, and if she was physically abused is kind of an unknown. It's clear that it's affected her greatly though. From just guessing I think that she was tossed around, like thrown off the bed or couch and things like that though from her behavior. TMI, but if my husband and I try to cuddle on the bed, she runs away as fast as she can and hides under the couch like she was "trained" to leave when her previous owners became intimate. She is terrified. She also does this if we ever eat while we are on the couch. I think her being mentally slow is just another issue on top of the abuse. It could be related. I'm not sure if they would have taken her to the vet if they did injure her.


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## Angel1210 (Mar 14, 2011)

Lindsay, I kinda know how you feel! I got Angel at nine weeks old from a loving family. But his father had issues. He was mean. I didn't want him, but hubby did! So we took him! Last of the litter! He was actually sweet looking and very sleepy when we got him.

I thought he would never stop biting me! He challenged me on absolutely everything!! I strongly believe in crate training and he was in one from first day. He is now 3 1/2 years old. I can't say he "stopped" biting. I believe I have learned to manage him. Luckily, he was eager to learn and learned quick. I still won't pick him up unless I 100% feel secure that he will not bite! If he is in my lap and I fidgit a little too much, he will attempt to bite me! 

He is not allowed on furniture. He can sit in my lap if I invite him. He sleeps in his crate in our bedroom. He waits until I say take it to eat his food. He gets treats in there also. He travels in the car in a small crate. I take him out to potty on a leash. Hubby likes to let him just go out on his own, but sometimes he gets distracted! He waits to go through a doorway until I have gone thru first. He is not the sweet cuddly little dog I wanted, but he is here and I am dealing with it. BUT, all my children are grown! I totally understand it is different when little ones are around!

I know that Ella has different circumstances. But if you can do obedience training with her, it will help a lot. Also, doing something like agility may also be a big help!

I also agree that anti-anxiety meds could be of some help. I am not big on giving meds, but if it will help her and you, then it is definitely worth a try! Seems like she may have had a rough life before you got her. What you are doing is great!

And one last thought. . .may be a little far-fetched, but here goes: If her behavior change is sudden, could she possible sense that you are pregnant and feels stressed? I don't know! Just a shot in the dark! I know dogs can sense all kinds of things!

I hope it all works out well. Keep us posted.


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

Angel1210 said:


> Lindsay, I kinda know how you feel! I got Angel at nine weeks old from a loving family. But his father had issues. He was mean. I didn't want him, but hubby did! So we took him! Last of the litter! He was actually sweet looking and very sleepy when we got him.
> 
> I thought he would never stop biting me! He challenged me on absolutely everything!! I strongly believe in crate training and he was in one from first day. He is now 3 1/2 years old. I can't say he "stopped" biting. I believe I have learned to manage him. Luckily, he was eager to learn and learned quick. I still won't pick him up unless I 100% feel secure that he will not bite! If he is in my lap and I fidgit a little too much, he will attempt to bite me!
> 
> ...


Oh! I forgot to mention that we have tried anti-anxiety meds and it didn't help at all. I've talked to the doctor about it and the next step would be Prozac. One of the side effects of Prozac is aggression, so my vet and I don't feel like that is an option. 

I've been reading about dogs sensing pregnancy. Most of these cases are when she is next to me and DH tries to touch her. I'm wondering if she's trying to protect me? But at the same time, she has actually attached to my husband more. She is generally "my" dog and Chloe is "his" dog. They've kind of switched since I've been pregnant. So, honestly I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not. I feel like I'm just grasping for straws!


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## Angel1210 (Mar 14, 2011)

Well, it sounds like meds are out of the question. The last thing you need is agression! 

I wish I had some advice to give you.

I do understand what you mean about behaviorists. It's like, if you knew someone that was really good, even though the money is not allotted for it, if it would help, you could make adjustments! Trying to find someone that is truly good and reputable is not easy!


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## Lisa T (Sep 3, 2010)

Hi Lindsay, I'm so sorry you are having these issues with Ella, it must be very stressful for you. I know this is a shot in the dark but I've picked up on where you have said you think she's mentally slow, that she doesn't follow basic commands like 'come' or 'sit'. Is there a possibility she could she be deaf ? Just a thought.


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

Lisa T said:


> Hi Lindsay, I'm so sorry you are having these issues with Ella, it must be very stressful for you. I know this is a shot in the dark but I've picked up on where you have said you think she's mentally slow, that she doesn't follow basic commands like 'come' or 'sit'. Is there a possibility she could she be deaf ? Just a thought.



Thank you. She's not deaf. She will turn her heard when we call her name and she reacts to noises like the UPS truck pulling up in front of our house. She is also fearful of a lot of noises. 


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

It usually takes a rescue dog around 6 months to fully settle in and show all the behaviours they came with. If she is slow, it may have taken her a little longer. The pregnancy might also be adding to her stress levels, we will never be able to know for certain what goes through their minds.
Concentrate on managing things for now so there are no more biting incidents. You have 6 months to work with Ella before the baby arrives, that is a lot of time to a dog.


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> It usually takes a rescue dog around 6 months to fully settle in and show all the behaviours they came with. If she is slow, it may have taken her a little longer. The pregnancy might also be adding to her stress levels, we will never be able to know for certain what goes through their minds.
> 
> Concentrate on managing things for now so there are no more biting incidents. You have 6 months to work with Ella before the baby arrives, that is a lot of time to a dog.



Thank you. I'm so grateful that this is happening now instead of in September or October when the baby is about to be here. I'm hoping to make the best out of the time that I have. 


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## Teddy76 (Aug 28, 2012)

Hi
No advice I'm afraid. Just wanted to wish you luck, and hope you can work things out, it must be very stressful 

Best wishes
x


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

Oh, Lindsay, I sure hate to hear what your going through but know that you love her to death and will do everything in your power for her. I wish I had advice, but I know nothing about dog behavior or training. Just know I know whatever you do will be in her best interest, and the advice you get on here will be great! I'm sure it's not the right thing, but I would probably tend to leave her be and let her do whatever makes her comfortable.


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

lulu'smom said:


> Oh, Lindsay, I sure hate to hear what your going through but know that you love her to death and will do everything in your power for her. I wish I had advice, but I know nothing about dog behavior or training. Just know I know whatever you do will be in her best interest, and the advice you get on here will be great! I'm sure it's not the right thing, but I would probably tend to leave her be and let her do whatever makes her comfortable.


Thank you, Tina! You're always so sweet! If it was just my husband and I, I wouldn't be as worried because we can accommodate her. But it will take awhile before the baby is old enough to be taught to not touch Ella. I'm so worried that something will happen before the baby can understand. We can try to separate them as much as possible, but that isn't fair to Ella to always be locked up away somewhere. It's just such a tough situation to balance. I want to do what's best for us and Ella all at the same time. Sometimes I think she would be happier at a home where she is the only dog and there aren't any children.


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## debrawade10 (Oct 10, 2013)

Tough one! 
I started my dogs with clicker training. I'm thinking this might be a good way to start over. Most dogs are very motivated by treats. Clicker training is positive reinforcement when the dog performs a task. You gradually move away from treats as they learn words or gestures that when completed result in lots of praise.
We used a long line nylon lead that was approximately. 12 ft. It should be kept on the dog in your presence and removed when you can't observe.
My thought is that she needs to start back to square one at the very begining of training. My husband and I both took turns in the training process but you could work it however you think is best. 
There are many books on clicker training. 
The key at first and the first sessions for a week or so is just to get her to learn to "look" when the clicker is sounded. It consists of the click, she should be on a leash or line...when she looks at the sound she receives a treat. 
Everything from sit which is next, stay, let's go, heel, down, etc. is built on from the initial command.
The word "look" is added a couple of days later, she will associate the command with her response as you go on.

It might be a way to start over with her again, positively while building her trust. It is difficult to explain the whole training process, I would advise an obedience traing center that uses this. They are very reasonable or find a good book.

I only throw this out as a thought, I am in know way knowledgable on what you are going through. I'm sorry this is happening..even if she just learns to look at the clicker she will be responding to you and your husband positively.
Hope you figure this out!


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

debrawade10 said:


> Tough one!
> I started my dogs with clicker training. I'm thinking this might be a good way to start over. Most dogs are very motivated by treats. Clicker training is positive reinforcement when the dog performs a task. You gradually move away from treats as they learn words or gestures that when completed result in lots of praise.
> We used a long line nylon lead that was approximately. 12 ft. It should be kept on the dog in your presence and removed when you can't observe.
> My thought is that she needs to start back to square one at the very begining of training. My husband and I both took turns in the training process but you could work it however you think is best.
> ...


Thank you for the suggestion. We did clicker training with Chloe and she did very well at it. Ella was unable to attend a group class because she shut down during it, so we tried to do it at home. She is afraid of the clicker and cowers in fear if we use it. I feel like every solution with her as an obstacle we have to overcome. When DH has been working on training her he uses the phrase good instead of a clicker to try to mark her behavior we like.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Saying 'good' is what i do as i never have enough hands for treats, clickers, leads, etc lol
If the click is too loud for Ella, try using a retractable pen instead, it has a much more gentle click.


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## debrawade10 (Oct 10, 2013)

I also use the word "good" . Since she knows the word good is for appropriate behavior...could you reinforce the word with a treat right now? Backing off after a week or so?


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

Using a pen is a great idea! I'll tell DH to try that! We've just started trying to use good as a marker, so we'll see of she makes progress where we can use good instead of treats. But I forsee it taking awhile to get to that point. Ella takes a long time to learn. 


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

You still need to use the treats to begin with, click or use your word as soon as she performs the behaviour you want then reward with a treat. The click or word is the marker to tell her she has got it right and that a reward is coming. Try high value food rewards, cooked meat is usually the highest value.


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## Evelyn (Oct 14, 2012)

We had a rescue Rat terrier and chi mix, she was abused, vet said she was about 7 mo old when we found her. It took her a year to just get use to me and my husband, she took right to our JR, they had no problems. But she would bite a man without if they got too close. Our children are grown and married, but if I had any at home there is now way would I have kept her, we had her for 16 years, she was a good dog with us. We never had her around any children, if anyone stopped in with them, I would crate her, could not trust her. I do hope you can do something with her, and can keep her, abused dogs are so afraid of fast movement etc. and little child moves fast. I also believe there are very smart animals and some that have less intelligence , like you said. My Holly is behind my other chi's mentally, and she has never been abused. Good luck this is very hard on you, but our human children do come first.


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## cepwin (Jan 19, 2014)

You might try a veterinary behaviorist if there is one in your area. The main difference is they can prescribe meds. In Chuck's case the meds she put him on plus daily work had made him a different dog. It was about $300-$400 not as much as you stated. Also, if you have insurance it my pay part of the cost. But you need to nip this in the bud. What the behaviorist and the trainer she recommended both said is Chuck reacted because he was terrified.


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## Angel1210 (Mar 14, 2011)

The pen is a great idea. But, treat, treat, treat!! If she is food motivated, use it liberally! You can wean off the treats after she has some confidence! 

I, too am not coordinated enough to handle clicker, leash, commands and treats. I use good boy! He is extremely food motivated so I use it! I am starting to use lots of lovin' and play time to substitute treats.


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

Ella isn't extremely food motivated, but we really can't find anything else's she's motivated by either. So, treats are our best option at the moment. She's been getting them for pottying outside, too lately and she's starting to get excited when she goes on the grass. So, I think she's starting to connect that she's getting treats for doing something good. 


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

Lindsay, I hate to be dense, but other than training her to potty outside (and I wanted to know is she puppy pad trained, but you want her outside trained), what other things are you trying to train her to do if you don't mind me asking. I guess I'm trying to get in my head are you try to train her to walk on a leash outside, be OK with going public places with you, be OK with people coming over, or are you trying to train her to do things like sit, stay, leave it, come, etc. In other words how would she be if you just kind of let her do her own thing, or are ya'll doing that am I'm off base. lol


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## Lindsayj (Apr 18, 2012)

She was half trained to go outside when we got her. We would prefer her to use the pads since that's what Chloe does, but Ella didn't get anywhere with that, so we've just gone with her going outside. Well, at first we just wanted to do basic obedience with her like sit, but we quickly realized that she is difficult to train since 9 moths later she still doesn't have any basic obedience skills. I could live without her knowing how to do stuff like that if she had her emotions and entirety under control. But everything I've read said teaching basic obedience helps with behavioral issues like we're having. So we keep trying. 


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I think the most important thing is that she can do something that pleases you so you can reward her. If she is slow to learn new stuff you can ask her to do things she already knows on command. The training is a big confidence booster, and it helps the dog to trust the owner. 
Do you tell her 'sit!' every time she sits down? 'Come' every time she comes to you? This should help her associate the word with the action, eventually she will sit when you say the word and not just the other way around.


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## joeandruth (Aug 11, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> It usually takes a rescue dog around 6 months to fully settle in and show all the behaviours they came with. If she is slow, it may have taken her a little longer. The pregnancy might also be adding to her stress levels, we will never be able to know for certain what goes through their minds.
> Concentrate on managing things for now so there are no more biting incidents. You have 6 months to work with Ella before the baby arrives, that is a lot of time to a dog.


.........

In addition to that 6 months before baby arrives, you have another 4 or more months where your baby will be extremely immobile, and will stay wherever he/she is put. There are various standard tricks (I forget, so long ago) that involve exposing the dog to the baby's scent, via perhaps an article of clothing) and associating something pleasant with that scent. You will work it out.


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## Zorana1125 (Oct 24, 2010)

Lindsay I'm sorry to hear Ella is having issues. I know how hard you and hubby have been working really hard on training her! I hope you can get it all sorted before the baby comes along! 

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## MaddiLovesDogs (Jan 16, 2014)

Lindsay, I'm so sorry to hear your frustration and sadness with Ella's sudden fear! :sad5: I think a lot of good advice has been given (per the norm on this wonderful forum) and I wish you guys the very best of luck in your families' transitions. 

I've read that most negative behavior exhibited by small dogs is rooted in fear because they are intelligent enough to know their size! Confidence building is a must for Ella, which means exactly what Stella said: Just something she can do to make you happy. When she knows she's getting *something* right, anything, that is the first step to alleviate her unsureness and it will get better.

Please keep us updated on Ella, and just remember to relax. You're a wonderful person who cares deeply for Ella and you are doing everything possible, we know it!


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## lulu'smom (Jan 4, 2012)

Lindsayj said:


> She was half trained to go outside when we got her. We would prefer her to use the pads since that's what Chloe does, but Ella didn't get anywhere with that, so we've just gone with her going outside. Well, at first we just wanted to do basic obedience with her like sit, but we quickly realized that she is difficult to train since 9 moths later she still doesn't have any basic obedience skills. I could live without her knowing how to do stuff like that if she had her emotions and entirety under control. But everything I've read said teaching basic obedience helps with behavioral issues like we're having. So we keep trying.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I understand. I was just trying to get a grasp on her to try to be of help--silly me, no more than I know. I know this is so hard on you, and I know that you are doing all you can for Ella. I know that whatever decision you make will be in Ella's best interest.


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## Jayda (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't have a lot to offer but I wanted to say good luck. It is very clear you want to make it work out. I hope it does.


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## arwensmommy (Jun 2, 2011)

Try lavender essential oil from a good company like Doterra, or Young Living. You can diffuse it, or even put it on the paws. (about one drop on the paw would do in a small dog.) It has an amazing list of benefits, and definitely aids with aggression/ anxiety. The dog whisperer even uses it on hard cases, there's video on youtube of him doing it.


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## Martini (Apr 17, 2014)

I'm very new to training my chi's but read a few interesting things I never thought of. You may already do this, all training should be done at the chi's level, so trainer should be on the floor with them or your chi elevated on a bed or chair. I also read you should put your hand on them and give a command before picking them up. This lets them know they are to be picked up. Makes sense, I'd hate to be minding my business one minute and flying through the air the next. With that said, I had a dog that took over a year to learn to potty outside. And about as long to sit, unfortunately some dogs just aren't quick learners.

I hope things work out, and I think you should know that rehoming Ella would not be considered putting the baby first, it's also doing right by Ella and what's in her best interest. 

Good Luck!:flower::flower:


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