# What age should mum leave the puppies??



## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

*What age should mum leave the puppies?? Health problems??*

I didn't know what to title this thread or to put it in the new health sections it's going to be long winded but I would really like some info on this!

My friend has a 5 1/2 month old chi puppy, he's badly bred and the 'breeders are suspect' anyway night before last he was bouncing around all over the place like he does on and off the sofa (her sofa is really low btw lower than an average height) anyway she was out the room and her friend was in with her boy and she heard ab almighty scream he had jumped off the sofa ad was screaming his head off!!! 

Anyway he got to the vets turns out his leg is shattered above the knee cap not broken but shattered to pieces he's been sent to an orthopaedic surgeon today for plates abd pins to e put in his leg.

Anyway she asked the vet how this much damage could happen from a small fall (no foul play btw!) and the vet said he's only ever seen such damage on one dog before which was his yorkie who was from a similar background! He said it could be some sort of bone deficiency/weakness or something who knows!!

Anyway she found out from the stupid breeder that they took mum away I.e totally weaned te pups at like 4/5 weeks and mum was shoved back outside in the kennels with tw rest of her breedig stock. Now I know this is disgusting and wrong and behavioural problems can happen (this dog has severe separation anxiety and still isn't toilet trained) but I wondered because they weren't feeding off mum ad were given crap and I mean crap food (lowest of the low) could their bones not have developed properly because of a calcium deficiency or something??

She knows one other of the litter has had a different problem as her friend took one of the litter.


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

That is disgusting and the owners should be reported to the RSPCA treating puppies this way.Just after quick money "scum"


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Breeders like this should be shut down but unfortunately they aren't would just be interesting to know if it can cause problems other than behavioural


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## Mandy (Jan 16, 2009)

i was told by my vet to have the pups fully weaned and off honey at 6 weeks so she can build herself up again they still want milk from her and chase her around the place but it must be sore for her cause you can tell she dosent really want too but gives in for an easy life in fact when i came down this morning she was sleeping just outside the pen the pups can still see her but not get her so i will just let her do what she wants i always put her in with them at bedtime but its up too her if she wants to stay in with them now they are on royal canin just now and eating it without soaking it and driking water so they should be fine but omg those little teeth are like needles poor honey


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

I think 4 weeks is too young but I don't know if it would cause problems with bone development

I agree it should be up to the mum to decide they'll soon let the pups know!


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## Terri (Aug 21, 2009)

That is unreal, poor wee puppy!
I think the pup should have stayed with mum longer too.
Defo just out to make money, scumbags!!
I dont know about the behaviour, but to me if taken away too soon, then the pups dont learn any manners from the mummy such as biting etc...
Mum and litter mates show pups what not to do.
Plus the pup will defo have seperation anxiety aswell.
Some folk think that helps to get them independant but mostly that backfires big time!!
Oh yeah and the crap food wont have helped one bit either!
Makes me sick!!


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## cprcheetah (May 4, 2009)

When I was raising Westies, we kept them with the mom until they were about 6-8 weeks, during the 6-8 weeks they learn a lot from their siblings and mom. I usually would try to wean them onto a gruel/puppy food around 3-4 weeks old but they still had the option to nurse. I usually didn't place them in new homes till about 9-10 weeks old. We have a client who just got a 4 week old Chi mix and it just made me sick, she has had to bottle feed the pup and has had lots of problems with hypoglycemia. The breeder was sick of the puppies pooping all over.


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## Natti (Jun 24, 2010)

Sick of puppy poop? Then why breed?? Ughhhhhh thats awful.

I cant speak for dogs, but with the kittens they start weaning around 5 weeks old, but stay with momma cat til 8 weeks at least.


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## LiMarChis (Mar 29, 2010)

I let my moms self wean the pups if possible. Most of the times, while the pups start nibbling at mom's food around 4 weeks of age, they are still nursing until they are about 8 weeks old. Just because they are eating solids doesn't mean they are ready to be away from momma. My moms will usually start moving away from the pups when they are ready for them to stop nursing. That's my signal to start the formal weaning process. I like them fully on solids by 11 weeks old.

I don't think this is so much an issue of early weaning as it is what she fed when she weaned them. I've hand raised pups with no adverse health issues so it's not just the lack of momma's milk that led to poor bone density. Also, we don't know what kind of issues the parents may have had, so that may be contributing as well.

I hope the orthopedic vet is able to help piece the leg back together. This is one of those reasons I tell people to keep puppies on the ground. Sadly, this happens way too often...shattered legs from jumping off couches, beds, chairs, etc.


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## jessicao32 (Jul 21, 2010)

I use to be a breeder. And weaning a litter of pups at 4/5 weeks is WAY TO YOUNG. I dont wean mine until close to 7/8 weeks I also make sure that they are eatting dry food 100% puppy food.

That breeder should not have done what she did and by her kicking the mom out side with the rest of the dogs is a not good either. The mom can have problems also...Its where she would be lumps in her milk and she will be in pain..i forgot the name of it but its not a good things. I think is one of these (Eclampsia And mastitis)

I honestly think if that lady does this she is more of PM to me than someone who cares for the well being of her dogs.

I am sorry for your puppys leg. I would put up pillows up so he can get up and down that way so no more jumping...GOOD LUCK and SOrry again


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## mad dog woman (Oct 29, 2006)

we let mum choose when to stop feeding her puppies but if she is still feeding them at 8 weeks when they have their first jab we then remove her. All bitches are different and will get fed up with the little needle teeth at different times.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

LiMarChis said:


> I let my moms self wean the pups if possible. Most of the times, while the pups start nibbling at mom's food around 4 weeks of age, they are still nursing until they are about 8 weeks old. Just because they are eating solids doesn't mean they are ready to be away from momma. My moms will usually start moving away from the pups when they are ready for them to stop nursing. That's my signal to start the formal weaning process. I like them fully on solids by 11 weeks old.
> 
> I don't think this is so much an issue of early weaning as it is what she fed when she weaned them. I've hand raised pups with no adverse health issues so it's not just the lack of momma's milk that led to poor bone density. Also, we don't know what kind of issues the parents may have had, so that may be contributing as well.
> 
> I hope the orthopedic vet is able to help piece the leg back together. This is one of those reasons I tell people to keep puppies on the ground. Sadly, this happens way too often...shattered legs from jumping off couches, beds, chairs, etc.



I'm so glad you responded to this 

He's out of surgery all pinned back together!! Accidents happen and I could understand a break or dislocation but not for it to shatter!! 
Would the food mum was fed (which I assume if the pups were fed low quality then so was mum) affect his bone density??


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## cprcheetah (May 4, 2009)

Daisydoo said:


> I'm so glad you responded to this
> 
> He's out of surgery all pinned back together!! Accidents happen and I could understand a break or dislocation but not for it to shatter!!
> Would the food mum was fed (which I assume if the pups were fed low quality then so was mum) affect his bone density??


Yes if the food was poor quality that the mom was on, she probably wasn't getting enough nutrients to pass on to the puppies. That's why it's important that mom's are either raw fed or on a high quality puppy food for at least the last 1/2 of pregnancy and while nursing puppies.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

What a nightmare Daisy. And an expensive one. I'm sure pinning a leg back together is VERY expensive. I feel sorry for your friend and for the puppy who was so poorly raised. Yes, feeding the mom poor quality food would mean she would produce poor quality milk I would think. Certainly that could have an impact on how the bones developed in the pups. A sad situation all around. That "breeder" should be SHUT DOWN.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Thank god she's got insurance it's cost £3,200!!!!!!

It's good to know though, I thought I was going nuts as I thought there would be some problem! 

Thanks for everyones input as always it's much appreciated he now has 6 weeks of confinement to recoup poor little baby


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## TripleAChihuahuas (Apr 8, 2010)

LiMarChis said:


> I let my moms self wean the pups if possible. Most of the times, while the pups start nibbling at mom's food around 4 weeks of age, they are still nursing until they are about 8 weeks old. Just because they are eating solids doesn't mean they are ready to be away from momma. My moms will usually start moving away from the pups when they are ready for them to stop nursing. That's my signal to start the formal weaning process. I like them fully on solids by 11 weeks old.
> 
> I don't think this is so much an issue of early weaning as it is what she fed when she weaned them. I've hand raised pups with no adverse health issues so it's not just the lack of momma's milk that led to poor bone density. Also, we don't know what kind of issues the parents may have had, so that may be contributing as well.
> 
> I hope the orthopedic vet is able to help piece the leg back together. This is one of those reasons I tell people to keep puppies on the ground. Sadly, this happens way too often...shattered legs from jumping off couches, beds, chairs, etc.


Well said above


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Oh gosh Sarah, what an awful situation.
It sounds like a puppy mill... I've never seen a puppy weaned at 4 weeks by anything other than medical urgency or the mother has passed.

That poor dog.. and bless your friend!


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Thanks Brooke. She's on er way to get him now an is worried about him being home incase he tries to use his leg I honestlydont think he'll try to use it yet but who knows I feel so bad for her right now


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## Terri (Aug 21, 2009)

Oh i agree it is totally a puppymill!
Poor baby!


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

The thing is they will keep breeding just for money!


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

He's home now but she's gotta take him back for a new bandage coz he's chewing at it they wot put a collar on because they use their back legs to get it off

Oh total cost was £3783!!!! If anything I hope people insure their dogs regardless of where they got them from!!! She had lifetime cover so each injury is covered up to £700 0 if she didn't she would have had to pay the rest it's scary!!


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Wow expensive indeed!


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## Terri (Aug 21, 2009)

Wow that is expensive, thank goodness they were insured!!
Crappy breeder should have had to pay otherwise, IMO.
I know they wouldnt though.


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## LDMomma (Mar 28, 2009)

Daisy- the same thing happened to my mother-in-laws dog. She's the same breed (littermate) as Lily. I already told you about their crappy breeder. Anyway, she had to have surgery done and at the time my MIL did not have insurance. It was outrageous. We all got insurance after that. I think Molly was about 8 months old when it happened.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

LDMomma said:


> Daisy- the same thing happened to my mother-in-laws dog. She's the same breed (littermate) as Lily. I already told you about their crappy breeder. Anyway, she had to have surgery done and at the time my MIL did not have insurance. It was outrageous. We all got insurance after that. I think Molly was about 8 months old when it happened.


I didn't know till I did this Thread that food could effect the puppies I know being malnourished is bad but with a good diet I thought things would be ok I dunno maybe I'm Niaeve and like to think people care about animals.

That's awful tho I know lily has lp but do they think her bone density could be affected?? I'd be so paranoid the way te dogs bomb around like a bunch of nutters.


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## KittyD (Apr 2, 2010)

Daisydoo said:


> II thought things would be ok I dunno maybe I'm Niaeve and like to think people care about animals.


Well in a perfect world, but the sad reality is it's just an easy source of income for many of them and in the end it's just the poor dogs who suffer.


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## LDMomma (Mar 28, 2009)

Daisydoo said:


> I didn't know till I did this Thread that food could effect the puppies I know being malnourished is bad but with a good diet I thought things would be ok I dunno maybe I'm Niaeve and like to think people care about animals.
> 
> That's awful tho I know lily has lp but do they think her bone density could be affected?? I'd be so paranoid the way te dogs bomb around like a bunch of nutters.


I don't know about Lily we've never had any testing done. It was mentioned though at Molly's surgery. She had pins and plates installed in her legs after jumping from a (low) bed onto a dog bed.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

LDMomma said:


> I don't know about Lily we've never had any testing done. It was mentioned though at Molly's surgery. She had pins and plates installed in her legs after jumping from a (low) bed onto a dog bed.


That's exactly what my friends dog had done how interesting!!! Apparently he's quite bouncy as a whole but this one little jump shattered his leg!


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## LDMomma (Mar 28, 2009)

Daisydoo said:


> That's exactly what my friends dog had done how interesting!!! Apparently he's quite bouncy as a whole but this one little jump shattered his leg!


She recovered nicely from the surgery and now you can't even tell. She had to stay in a crate for 6 weeks. Then do little exercises and then very short walks.


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## 18453 (Feb 6, 2010)

Yeah he's crate bound for 6 weeks too and has to be carried to the toilet etc it's really awful they said he should be ok but because he's so young as he grows he may need the pins out or something I dunno

I'm just grateful he was insured as she wouldn't have been able to afford it otherwise


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