# Interesting nutrition discussion with my vet



## Blue Chi (Oct 12, 2011)

Since we discovered the struvite crystals in Gunner's urine, I've been considering foods yet again. The dr said she sees a strong correlation between the crystals and Blue brand of food. Gunner has been on blue for a few months now, a combo of dry and canned. She's also been to some vet nutrition conferences and she thinks that the high protein grain free is not good. She said she only recommends high protein for athletic dogs. She's trying to convince me that gunner needs to be on something lower protein with some grain. She evn advocated for corn! So I was kinda blunt and asked why this sudden surge in higher proteins and grain free options. All she would say is that it should be interesting to see what these dogs' kidneys will look like in a few years. She even brought up cats, who are strictly carnivores, and how so many have renal failure later in life due to high protein diets. I felt like I couldn't really argue that in the moment. Later, I thought about my last chi who died with renal failure. I knew nothing of higher quality foods then. I knew nothing of raw. She spent most of her life on science diet, beneful, iams. Which is all sort of vet recommended. Lower protein and still had renal failure. So I'm wondering if these cats, and my last chi, are really getting renal failure from high protein or is it the quality of protein? Also I think about the lack of moisture in kibble. Could that not lead to pitiful kidneys from having to wrk so hard on crap proteins while being dehydrated? I'd love to see the difference in cats who were fed canned food instead. 
I'll admit some of what she has said makes sense. SOME of it. So now I'm confused about the route to go with Gunner and food. Once his pancreas is back to normal, I'm gonna have to consider which route to go. Gunner is no athlete by any stretch of the imagination. Hercules is very muscular and loves to run. So I think he's fine on high protein, though I am getting him off Blue. So I wonder if I should experiment with gunner on some lower quality proteins with some grain. I just ordered a sample of honest kitchen with beef and some grain. Can't remember which one. We've gone the honest kitchen route before and my dogs thought it was not funny ;-)

Sigh. Why does it have to so hard and controversial?


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## Blue Chi (Oct 12, 2011)

Not lower quality proteins!! Gosh def not that. I meant try lower quantity as in lower percentage of protein. Def not lower quality!!


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## KrystalLeigh (Aug 17, 2011)

Both cats and dogs won't drink enough water to support their organs. They need higher moisture in foods to make up for it, which is usually why both species get crystals in urine, kidney issues, etc. During my search for an appropriate cat food for our guy who has recurring bladder issues, I learned that even the lowest quality canned food is better than the highest quality dry kibble. Mind you, that's for cats, but I wouldn't imagine it would be much different for dogs. 

Vets do try to pass on their knowledge, but some are definitely not as up to date as others! Cats are carnivores! A lower protein diet would be detrimental to their health. 


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## Huly (Mar 5, 2012)

KrystalLeigh said:


> Both cats and dogs won't drink enough water to support their organs. They need higher moisture in foods to make up for it, which is usually why both species get crystals in urine, kidney issues, etc. During my search for an appropriate cat food for our guy who has recurring bladder issues, I learned that even the lowest quality canned food is better than the highest quality dry kibble. Mind you, that's for cats, but I wouldn't imagine it would be much different for dogs.
> 
> Vets do try to pass on their knowledge, but some are definitely not as up to date as others! Cats are carnivores! A lower protein diet would be detrimental to their health.
> 
> ...


AGREE 100% you can also add water to a wet food to add more moisture content. I do this with Nala my 18 year old cat.


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## cpaoline (Oct 9, 2012)

very interesting, I had asked my vet about the grain free and all she had to say is that it was just a marketing ploy...hhmmmm, possible. I have heard of a lot of animal dying from renal failure some vets feel that's it's just an end of life cycle the body starting to give out due to old age. My cat died of renal failure at 15. I considered rather old. She ate mostly canned food with some dry. I still have 2 remaining cats, one is 13 and one is 16, both eat the same canned with dry. and i must add that it is not a high quality food, they have always eaten friskies and were never sickly.

My oldest dog i lost a few months back at age 17. When i got her many moons ago i knew nothing about nutrition she spent most her life on Pedigree, kibbles and bits and beneful along with some other cheaper brands mixed in. The past few years of her life she was on Nutro. Never had a problem, the last 2 years she was on the sensitive stomach from nutro. She died from a cancerous tumor.

My 3 chi's are on Nutro Ultra Holistic small breed. I had the notion to change thier food thinking that something else was better so we tried Fromm, 2 loved it one wouldn't eat it. So then came the Merrick. they all loved it even the canned food. It made all 3 very gassy and within a few weeks I had 1 at the emergency vet twice for stomach upset and gas, so bad that he was yelping in pain every few minutes. It was a nightmare. I started the bland diet and slowly added Nutro back in and everyone is back to being healthy. Accordinr to the dog food advisory it is considered a 4 star kibble and that's good with me because there is no more tummy troubles.

Interesting new about Blue. but i guess they have only popped up the last couple of years along with the grain free foods, so there may not hbe enough cases to go by yet. I had asked a good friend of mine who is a vet tech and lives on farm full of dogs, cats, horses, goats, chicken and whatnot what she fed. I was surpirsed when she said Purina, for everybody! Her words, they have been around forever they must know a thing a or two and she has never had a food related illness of death because of it...just something to ponder.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

It isn't the protein that is causing the renal issues with cats! She should know that as a vet...
If you look at raw meat, it isn't actually that high in protein, because it contains a high percentage of water. That is the correct amount of protein for a carnivore, the amount that is naturally found in meat!
I would definitely go down the DIY raw route with Gunner, then you will know exactly what he is eating.


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## cpaoline (Oct 9, 2012)

so just to understand renal failure, because i never really asked, what does cause it? I have had one vet tell me they need grains, and not too much protein, i don't know i guess everyone has an opionion. When they should especially vets base on facts. Can you help me understand the renal issues


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## Blue Chi (Oct 12, 2011)

That's what I want to know. What really causes renal failure? If an animal is made to eat meat, especially dogs and cats, how could protein be the cause. Did God (or Mother Nature, evolutionary design, or whatever u believe in) really design a system for the animal to die/suffer from the things it's designed to eat. Makes no sense!!! That's why I go back to quality, how it's processed, and water content of the food. I always add water if I feed kibble. Always. But that doesn't change that it's super processed and meat source is unknown. 
Wickedpixie, we've gone down the raw route before. While I totally believe in it, it's very hard to manage in our stage of life right now. I hope to return to it when kids are older and I have more time on my hands to throw out a towel or blanket for the dogs to eat on and sit there and watch them so there's no sharing or running to the couch with the meat. For now pre made raws (preferably dehydrates) is our route. That and canned foods. Then the decision becomes which brand, which one, grain or no grain (which isn't really found in pre made raw), fruit and veggies or not, etc. And then hope your doing it right despite all the conflicting information everywhere.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

The kidneys have several functions, but the two main ones are removing toxins from the blood and maintaining the water/salt balance in the body. There is no one cause of renal failure, but feeding an entirely dry diet that keeps the cat permanently dehydrated, and feeding a diet high in grain/vegetable protein (both of which are entirely unsuitable food for cats, so make the entire system work extremely hard) puts a huge strain on the kidneys.


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## cpaoline (Oct 9, 2012)

Blue Chi said:


> That's what I want to know. What really causes renal failure? If an animal is made to eat meat, especially dogs and cats, how could protein be the cause. Did God (or Mother Nature, evolutionary design, or whatever u believe in) really design a system for the animal to die/suffer from the things it's designed to eat. Makes no sense!!! That's why I go back to quality, how it's processed, and water content of the food. I always add water if I feed kibble. Always. But that doesn't change that it's super processed and meat source is unknown.
> Wickedpixie, we've gone down the raw route before. While I totally believe in it, it's very hard to manage in our stage of life right now. I hope to return to it when kids are older and I have more time on my hands to throw out a towel or blanket for the dogs to eat on and sit there and watch them so there's no sharing or running to the couch with the meat. For now pre made raws (preferably dehydrates) is our route. That and canned foods. Then the decision becomes which brand, which one, grain or no grain (which isn't really found in pre made raw), fruit and veggies or not, etc. And then hope your doing it right despite all the conflicting information everywhere.


I agree, how do you know if your doing the right thing. Should we worry, I dont know like i said before my other dog ate pretty much crap most of her life and live to 17 when her life exceptancy for a larg breed was only 13. so who really knows


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## cpaoline (Oct 9, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> The kidneys have several functions, but the two main ones are removing toxins from the blood and maintaining the water/salt balance in the body. There is no one cause of renal failure, but feeding an entirely dry diet that keeps the cat permanently dehydrated, and feeding a diet high in grain/vegetable protein (both of which are entirely unsuitable food for cats, so make the entire system work extremely hard) puts a huge strain on the kidneys.


Now that makes perfect sense. So a balnce between dry, wet and access to fresh clean water make kitty happy


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I have never seen any evidence linking high protein to kidney problems. Low protein diets are recommended for animals with impaired kidney function, but that doesn't mean that the problem was caused by too much protein.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Found this article, which I found really interesting. Scroll down to the part about struvite crystals.
Canine Kidney Stone and Bladder Stone Prevention - Whole Dog Journal Article

It suggests that the formation of struvite crystals is due to infection, and not linked to diet.


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## cpaoline (Oct 9, 2012)

Very intereseting, thank you


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## Blue Chi (Oct 12, 2011)

Wicked Pixie said:


> Found this article, which I found really interesting. Scroll down to the part about struvite crystals.
> Canine Kidney Stone and Bladder Stone Prevention - Whole Dog Journal Article
> 
> It suggests that the formation of struvite crystals is due to infection, and not linked to diet.


I went to read it and realized I already had! Haha. I'd like to follow up on gunner after the dust from surgery settles. It very well could be with a foreign body stuck in his intestines and the pancreatitis that his body was kind of reacting like he had infection. I mean, he still hasn't run fever or anything but maybe it was on the verge? I guess the only way to tell for sure is to put him back on Blue one day and test his urine while he's completely healthy. I did research on blue when all this came up and I'm not sure I'd ever want to put him back on it. Seems crystals COULD be associated.


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## Blue Chi (Oct 12, 2011)

I just googled this: wellness urinary crystals. Interestingly, there are reports of that too. So it's not just blue. Although all the articles that popped up were about cats. And mostly regarding the DRY versions.


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

There have been more dogs succumb to liver and renal failure from foods and treats from China than most Vets are aware. 

Just Google renal failure china dog treats and you will be astounded.


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## Lulajane (Jun 24, 2013)

I'm reading all of this scratching my head LOL! I chose to feed Gypsy the Wellness CORE Grain-Free canned. I just liked that choice because of what I read about it goes through less process, helps with providing them moisture, & that grains weren't healthy for them.
I had my vet tell me last week to feed Gypsy Meow Mix!! He told me the same, that dogs do need some grain.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Dogs do not NEED grain. They don't NEED carbohydrates at all. My dogs are perfectly healthy without any carbs in their diet, they get all their energy from fats and proteins.
Dogs can however, adapt to get their energy requirements from carbohydrates. The main issue with feeding grains, is that they are a common cause of allergies in dogs, wheat being the main culprit. Other grains such as oats and rice are generally better tolerated.


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## Blue Chi (Oct 12, 2011)

My vet's argument for grains/carbs is that they will eat grass and they eat animals that eat grains. Ok, so I'm thinking that makes sense. But a dog being fed raw will for sure be getting the same thing. Eating animals that eat grains!! And they can still go outside and graze unless they live in a dessert!! 

So, WickedPixie, u don't think grains/carbs hurt anything unless there is an allergy? Being that I'm about to test gunner on it. As far as I know he's never had any grains. Carbs, yes, like the little that's in S&C but not grain.


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## Blue Chi (Oct 12, 2011)

Lulajane said:


> I'm reading all of this scratching my head LOL! I chose to feed Gypsy the Wellness CORE Grain-Free canned. I just liked that choice because of what I read about it goes through less process, helps with providing them moisture, & that grains weren't healthy for them.
> I had my vet tell me last week to feed Gypsy Meow Mix!! He told me the same, that dogs do need some grain.


Head scratching!! I know!! U see my predicament. From my own reading, what ur feeding sounds good. The only negative I can find about feeding canned is the possibilities of the cans containing bpa. And it seems that's mostly in the large cans. Not in the small. But there's alot of mixed info on that too. On one site it says halo dog food uses bpa and another it says absolutely not. So who knows?!?!


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I don't agree that grain is a natural part of a dogs diet. They do not eat the stomach contents of large prey, that is a myth. Dogs will graze, but grasses are not grains lol. Grass naturally only has 'grain' once a year, (when it goes to seed) grain is very much a manmade thing.
I prefer to feed foods that are natural, hence the raw diet. Would I feed grain? No, but then I wouldn't feed kibble either. 
If I had a dog that needed carbs, I would be much more likely to look at something like sweet potatoes, or peas. IMO grains need too much processing to make them digestible to dogs, which tells me they are something dogs shouldn't be eating.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Canine Diseases Linked to Cereal Grains in Dog Food (Part 1)

I thought this was a good short piece on grain in dog food.


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## Blue Chi (Oct 12, 2011)

Wicked Pixie said:


> Canine Diseases Linked to Cereal Grains in Dog Food (Part 1)
> 
> I thought this was a good short piece on grain in dog food.


YUCK!!!! :tongue6::tongue6::tongue6:


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Totally! That is why I don't feed commercial dog food LOL!


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## woodard2009 (Aug 4, 2010)

Midgie was on raw when she had struvite crystals. She developed them because of antibiotics. It started out as a UTI that went un-noticed too long which caused the struvite crystals. My vet wanted to put her on more antibiotics for the UTI. I said no and had read that Vit. C breaks up the crystals. It worked and the vet was amazed how well it worked when you tested the urine 1 week later. Now I keep her on ester C and she's doing great.


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