# Advice needed on unknown condition



## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Hi folks,

My in laws are very distressed as their senior chihuahua is having an issue today and her normal vet is not open until tomorrow morning.

What happened this afternoon is her chi got up out of her bed and suddenly froze in a contorted position while her eyes glazed over and her tongue turned black. This lasted for no more than two minutes and she unfroze, her tongue is back to normal color, her eyes are normal again, and she is responding to my in-laws.

Does anyone know that these symptoms might be or what could be going on? Does this sound like a medical emergency or is it something that can wait until her normal vet opens tomorrow morning?

For what it's worth, they told me that she has not been eating much lately (which is normal for her) and that she has been drinking a lot more water lately. She's 10 yrs old (I think) and about 2 lbs over weight, weighing 6 lbs when she should weigh 4 lbs and she has acute stage 4 luxating patella in both knees.

If anyone can offer any advice it would be much appreciated, they are very upset right now.


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## widogmom (Mar 23, 2011)

It could be a seizure, but with the overweight and the water drinking I would be looking at diabetes as well. If she was my dog, and if there is not an emergency vet handy, I would get her to her regular vet ASAP (like, show up on their doorstep in the morning when they open) and do a complete geriatric blood panel for starters. I can understand how upset they must be - very scary stuff! Good luck to them and their good old girl.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

They currently plan to bring her into the vet first thing tomorrow for an exam and to have bloodwork done. They live in Orlando so I am sure there is an emergency vet available to them if they need to seek one out.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Sounds to me like she threw a clot. It cut off the blood supply for a short time (hence the tongue turning black) and caused her to space out for awhile. Sort of like a TIA in humans (transient ischemic attack) which can preclude strokes. That's what I'd guess from the symptoms you described. Let us know what the vet thinks!


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Thank you both for the ideas. We're all anxious to hear what the vet thinks...I hate this waiting and wondering, even if it's not one of my own dogs.


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

Oh i hope it turns out ok,keep us updated


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Just a real quick, little update.

After the awful situation with her normal vet today she is going to a different vet that I recommended to her. This vet she will be going to tomorrow is a fantastic holistic vet that I actually used to take my dogs to back when I lived in FL.

Long story short, she called her vet this morning to let them know she'd be coming in with her dog. They said it was okay. She arrives after driving across town for them to tell her it won't be possible to see her dog, but maybe if she wants to come back in the afternoon after 2 pm they might have an opening even though they were booked for the afternoon. Any other day she would have gone back and waited but she had her own doctors appt to catch this afternoon so she could not sit at the vets office hoping to be seen. She was very upset and more so by how rude they were to her (so she says).

So she took my advice and called my previous holistic vet who I highly recommended. They said it would be fine to wait an extra day so she has an appt for tomorrow morning. I took my dogs to this holistic vet for 2 years and she really knows her stuff and is by far the best vet I have EVER been to. My mother-in-law will be in good hands tomorrow, of that I am positive.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Let us know how her visit goes tomorrow. Her old vet, if he were mine, would have lost my business forever!


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Brodysmom said:


> Sounds to me like she threw a clot. It cut off the blood supply for a short time (hence the tongue turning black) and caused her to space out for awhile. Sort of like a TIA in humans (transient ischemic attack) which can preclude strokes. That's what I'd guess from the symptoms you described. Let us know what the vet thinks!


That was my EXACT thought, minus your genius medical jargon in the 2nd half 

I probably would freak out and get my dog to the e-vet. But I would guess if it were an emergency, they would know by now. Especially if $ is tight waiting until tomorrow morning won't be the end of the world I don't think.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

My MIL makes me sooo angry sometimes! :foxes15:

So she didn't bother to let me know what went on at the vet this morning. I had to call my husband at work and ask him if he'd heard anything. Sure enough, his mom called him and told him what was going on and didn't bother to fill me in. After talking to my husband, I'm pretty sure I know why.

First off my MIL didn't tell him if the vet commented on what the episode could possibly have been. Second, she complained about all the things the vet pointed out that need to be addressed. And third she complained about the cost and mentioned she doesn't think she wants to go back to the holistic vet I recommended.

My pet peeve with all this is she's being cheap and more importantly, she doesn't want to go to a vet who will give it to her straight and will tell her what she doesn't want to hear.

This holistic vet may cost a few dollars more than others but she is also so much more knowledgeable, constantly educating herself and staying abreast of new research/technology/treatment/etc, she practices acupuncture and has done a ton of studying on animal nutrition. She sells Orijen and frozen raw food at her office! Back when I fed Evo she strongly encouraged me to switch to raw. Not only that but she does the most thorough physical evals I've EVER seen any vet do and she has time and again picked up on little things that other vets miss. She is literally the best vet I have ever had the pleasure of knowing.

The vet advised my MIL on feeding which my MIL didn't want to hear...told her the same thing I've been telling her for years but she just doesn't listen (my MIL thinks she knows best and no one will convince her otherwise). The vet found a cyst that she said needed to be removed, my MIL didn't want to hear it nor does she want to pay for the surgery to remove it. The vet advised her to get the luxating patella corrected surgically, again my MIL especially did not want to hear that...nor does she intend to pay for that surgery. So because she went to an excellent vet who is calling it like she sees it and pointing out all the issues going on not including what their visit was for, she doesn't want to go there anymore...and it all boils down to $$$. And I KNOW they can afford it, they choose not to.

The whole situation just makes me feel sick.

Enough of my ranting, they did draw blood and sent it off for testing. I did not hear when the results would be in but I know from experience with that vet that they normally have results the next day. And I'm pretty sure she refused to call me with the news because she did not want to complain about the vet that I recommended she go to or tell me that she doesn't want to go there again.

I'm about to just shut down and stop helping her with ANY pet related advice. She is ALWAYS asking for my help and advice and never takes it or when she does take my advice she does it halfway (which won't get the desired results) and then continues complaining about her plight. I wish I could just say I can't help her anymore...problem is she's my mother-in-law.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

huskyluv said:


> My MIL makes me sooo angry sometimes! :foxes15:
> 
> So she didn't bother to let me know what went on at the vet this morning. I had to call my husband at work and ask him if he'd heard anything. Sure enough, his mom called him and told him what was going on and didn't bother to fill me in. After talking to my husband, I'm pretty sure I know why.
> 
> ...


I can feel how darn frustrated you are girl!! I can't even imagine! While I do have to say I personally would never do LP surgery on a 10 year old chi, I do think the vets other advice was sound. Even just getting her on the slim side would help :-/ 

I would keep my mouth shut too  Some people just don't know HOW to hear what they need to hear.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Sorry to hear that Val. Perhaps the bloodwork will show something easy to correct, like thyroid, etc. Sometimes you just have to distance yourself from situations like that. If she doesn't want to invest the time/effort/money to get her dog healthy - then there's nothing you can do but stand by. I know - it's a horrible position to be in.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks ladies, it is tough to have to stand back. I almost wish I could take her dogs away so that they could be treated properly. *sigh* For now I have to stand back and let her do what she wants. I will continue to update when I hear anything. It's very unfortunate hearing that she intends to go back to her horrible old vet.


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## KayC (May 3, 2005)

Val you did your best to try to help. I am sorry, it must be frustrating......
Keep us posted.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks Kay. 

Update:
My MIL actually called me to update after leaving the vets office this afternoon. She stopped by to pick up the bloodwork results and got some "medication" for her dogs liver.

Turns out there was a lack of communication. Her affected chi has a cyst on the abdomen AND a tumor in her mouth near her teeth that needs to be surgically removed. My MIL indicated that she will have the tumor in the dogs mouth surgically removed when the vet feels that it would be safe to do so. Thank goodness! *sigh of relief*

She is going to scan and email me the bloodwork results so that I can see them myself. But the major thing that was pointed out was that the dogs liver enzymes were high and the vet sent her home with Rx Vitamins Liquid Hepato for her liver. The vet wants her on that for a while and then wants to test her again in several weeks I believe to see if the Hepato is having an effect.

Now I'm just waiting for the email with information from her. She said she's going to send it to me tonight.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Okay I received a copy of the bloodwork results. Tracy, you were so helpful in deciphering my own dogs' bloodwork results, any chance you can help us read these? No pressure though. Sometimes I wish they would put these things in laymans terms. Can anyone help us figure out what these results mean or could indicate?

Results:


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

She also wanted me to ask if her giving Advantage flea treatment to her dog on Friday, April 1st, could have any effect on the results or her liver enzymes. I wouldn't think so but just wanted to verify.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Val, I really wouldn't doubt it! Topical flea meds are neurotoxins. It certainly could have spurred on that incident and I wouldn't doubt it at all if it elevated liver enzymes as well.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Ok, just saw the lab work ......

Increased platelets - platelets are responsible for adequate blood clotting. If they are high, it can mean dehydration or stress. I wouldn't be super worried about this value.

High Monocytes - this is another stress response. Monocytes are a type of white blood cell. Again, I wouldn't be super concerned about it.

Urinalysis is normal.

ALT is high - however, it says the specimen was hemolyzed (partially clotted) and this elevates this enzyme. So I would have liver enzymes retested in a month or so to see if it is still elevated. 

GGT - another liver enzyme. In conjunction with the elevated ALT, I can see why the vet was concerned. I would say this value should be 'watched' but it is not anywhere near panic mode.

The liver support med she prescribed is a supplement. It likely contains milk thistle which is great for helping support and deal with liver damage, especially helpful in mild cases (which is what I think is present here). Yep, just looked it up and milk thistle is the primary ingredient.

Liquid Hepato Veterinary Information from Drugs.com

I think this vet is treating conservatively and I agree with her. I don't think these lab values are anything to get super worried about. I would do the hepato supplement for a month or so and then re-test.

I hope this helps Val!


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks a ton Tracy, you are a gem! 

By the way, I just found out that she gave all three of her dogs Advantage recently twice, spaced two weeks apart. That can't possibly be good.


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## KayC (May 3, 2005)

Tracy, very good information, very informative.
Zoey had elevated liver function with her pyometra due to the infection. I wonder if the mouth tumor is infected and causing the levels to be elevated. If it were me I would ask for a bile acid test to better check the liver.
I just don't feel comfortable using Advantage.....:-(, but that is just me


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Zoey's Mom said:


> I wonder if the mouth tumor is infected and causing the levels to be elevated.


You know that's a possibility that I hadn't thought of. If that were the case then the re-test of her blood in several weeks would probably still show the elevated liver enzymes, right?


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## KayC (May 3, 2005)

Was she given an antibiotic at all? If not then IF the elevation is caused form infection then they would still be elevated. The bile acid test would tell for sure if the liver is functioning properly.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

No she was not given any antibiotics. 

Also apparently I misheard her over the phone. She clarified that the tumor is on her mammory gland near her teats. Teeth, teats...they sound the same over the phone plus she was talking about the dogs mouth! Ay yi yi, anyway so the tumor is a hard lump on her mammory glands from the sounds of it. Don't know if the fact that she wasn't spayed until she was a senior might have contributed to a higher chance of something like that.

I know my MIL will not pay for another test to be done, she has already expressed concern over the amount they have spent already which is over $200. For now I am trying to convince her that it is in their best interest to have the blood re-tested in a month. I would just be happy if she would listen and have that done.

She does plan to have the tumor removed however the vet does not want to put her under for a surgery like that until she feels the dog is healthy enough for it. Hence, she is waiting to see how the liver enzymes test in several weeks. Believe me, I'm trying my hardest to convince her to re-test when the time comes.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Just a quick update, my mother in law's dog is going back to the vet today for another blood panel to evaluate whether the milk thistle that the vet put her on has helped bring the liver enzymes down. If not, then then we'll see what the vet advises. She should have the results from today's test tomorrow. I will update with results when I hear anything from her. Here's hoping for good news.


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## omguthrie (Oct 13, 2009)

Glad to hear that she went back for another test.

Has she had the mammary tumor removed yet or a FNA done to see what it is?


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## Tink (Oct 14, 2009)

^^^This. I was just going to ask if she'd had the surgery yet? And did she get a bile acid test done?


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

Will be awaiting the results. I hope they are good!


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Me too, Tracy!

She has not had the surgery for the mammary tumor yet. The vet wanted to get the follow up bloodwork results done to see if there were any outstanding issues before proceeding with surgery.

Money is an issue for them right now so I'm sure they're going to take things one step at a time. First order of business is the bloodwork results and then we'll see how the vet wants to proceed from there and of course things will also depend on my inlaws' finances. But the mammary tumor will be taken care of for sure, it will just depend on money and when the vet feels it is safe to operate.

I will update as soon as they send me the results.


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## LadyJ (Aug 20, 2010)

Any vet I had gone to before who treated me like that would not get any more of my business! My vet, who has been my vet for many, many years, would drop everything if one of my dogs had an emergency. One of my pups chewed through an electrical cord one time, laying right at my feet under my desk. He was curled up, yelping, with the cord in his mouth. I moved him away from the cord with my foot (had on tennis shoes), grabbed him up and rushed to the vet's office. Everyone jumped into action when I rushed in the door telling them what had happened and my vet was with him in just a minute or two. He was OK, thank goodness, but if he had needed quick treatment, he would have received it. I don't expect any special treatment, but I do expect my vet, who I've spent a ton of money with, to respond to an emergency. She has never disappointed me and is very conscientious about her patients.

Jeanette


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## omguthrie (Oct 13, 2009)

If they can't afford to have the tumor removed maybe they could have a fine needle aspirate done? That way if the results come back as cancer (cross fingers not) they can make a plan to get that mass out as quickly as possible. If it's not cancer then they have time to wait.

Her bloodwork doesn't look nearly bad enough to delay a small mass removal surgery.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Well the vet called my MIL and had to cancel her appt yesterday due to a family emergency so they rescheduled her bloodwork for Friday.

They will be able to afford the surgery to remove the tumor but it will have to be after they recuperate from the cost associated with what they are currently paying for the vet visits and bloodwork from last month and this month. I can mention your suggestions to her but ultimately it will be between the vet and her. They are in the hands of an excellent new vet so I know they are in good care there.


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## mooberry (Jan 31, 2011)

Please keep us updated, Also I just want to say to everyone that contributed to this discussion that you are such amazing intelligent people.

I have No idea what these means but it's so nice to know that if i'm ever worried I can turn to the support everyone gives here before entering panic mode.


Hoping everything goes well for this little furbaby!


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Okay my MIL finally received her chihuahua's follow up bloodwork results. Her vet said that everything looks fine to her and that the liver enzymes(?) went down.

Here's the results:









Does everything look okay in your opinion Tracy? Sorry to ask you so many questions on blood panels, you're the most knowledgeable person on this subject that I know!

Oh and tomorrow my MIL will be going back to the vet to start discussing the surgery to remove her chi's mammary tumor.

So it seems like pretty good news as far as I hear.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

those values look fine to me Val. The Bun/Creatinine can falsely elevate because of dehydration and often does. I wouldn't worry at all. Those values are fine! Good news. Please keep us updated on her surgery. Glad to see her titers came back good too. Good news all around.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks Tracy! Now I feel much more at ease hearing that backed up.


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## bayoumah (Nov 30, 2010)

hi im so glad she can have her surgury now and yall not worrying about her liver good luck and please keep us posted ive been following this thread for a while now and i do care about the older chihs health thanks


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

Thanks Sheila, it is fantastic news and I'm glad that she is finally on the road to getting that tumor taken out. She's 11 yrs old (I just found out yesterday I might have been saying she was younger than she is, oops) with a lot of life left in her so I think she should do fairly well with the surgery and recovery.


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## huskyluv (Oct 24, 2008)

I just got a call from my very upset MIL regarding the "tumor" that she wants to get removed from her 11 yr old chihuahua.

She got a second opinion from another vet and as a result is very distraught and asked me to post here and ask for your advice on what she should do or what you guys would suggest.

Vet #1 said the lump is a mammary tumor and wants to do surgery to remove it and will then send it out to be tested so they will know whether or not it is benign.

Vet #2 said the lump is mammary cancer and wants to do an x-ray to see if it has spread anywhere else in the body before doing surgery to remove it.

Neither vet has taken a sample from the lump to examine it for sure. My MIL is very upset right now and wants me to ask what you guys think or if you've ever experienced anything like this? 

Should she (or would you recommend that she) get an x-ray done to check if it's spread anywhere else before doing surgery to remove the lump?

Lastly she's wondering if anyone knows what kind of real prognosis for recovery from something like this would be?

Any advice or words of wisdom/comfort/experience would be greatly appreciated.


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear your MIL is having to deal with this still.  If it were my Chi...I'd do the xray before having it removed. If it has spread...taking out the tumor won't do any good anyway. With the xray...at least if they decided to do the surgery afterwards--they're not going in blind per say. Plus if it has spread (god forbid) I'm sure she wouldn't want her put under anymore stress than needed & the surgery would do just that. Especially if surgery wouldn't effect the outcome.

I'll keep her in my thoughts and hope for the best outcome!


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## widogmom (Mar 23, 2011)

I can't understand why they have not done any histology. The first thing my vet would do would be to stick a needle in the darned thing and send a sample to Marshfield Clinic to see what we're dealing with. It's the cheapest, fastest way to find out exactly what a lump is...or is not. Why put an 11-year-old dog through surgery if you don't need to? I'd go with the x-ray from Vet 2, but you may be none the wiser afterwards and some dogs find x-rays more stressful than others (Dary had so many, he could practically run the machine for them). I would encourage her to try to get a needle aspiration sent to a lab to find out if it's cancer...then worry about how much it has spread, whether to treat it aggressively or go with palliative care, etc. Just my two cent's worth.


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## omguthrie (Oct 13, 2009)

I agree completely. All the vets I know and have worked with would have done a fine needle aspiration long ago so they would know what they are dealing with. There's no reason to tell an owner that it's cancer without proof. And why in the world would they do an xray before the aspiration? Even in the human world, if you find a breast mass they will do a biopsy to see if it's cancer before putting the person through a PET scan. Plus if they had done an aspiration in the beginning and found it was cancer then they could have gotten it out earlier and decreased the likelihood of metastasis. I would seriously be considering finding another vet. 

If it were my dog I would insist on a fine needle aspiration first and foremost. Then if the results come back cancer then I would do chest xrays to look for metastasis and an abdominal ultrasound to look for tumors in the abdomen. If those tests are clear then I would take her to surgery and make sure the vet gets wide margins, send it in for histopath and make sure the margins are clean. If not then go back for clean ones.


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