# A pittbull ate my aunt's chihuahua



## SCRAPPY (Sep 4, 2005)

Hello, 

I know that I have not been for a while. I have been busy and all, but i wanted to share with you something that happen to my aunt. She had 3 beautiful chis Julie, Sasha, & Casey. Sunday afternoon she took her girl for a walk like she always do and out of nowhere comes a pitt. Julie the smallest who could only walk on 3 legs because of a birth defect was not on leash because my aunt always carried her in her arms, since Julie could only hop. She was 1 1/2 yrs old. Anyhow my aunt, said she put Julie down so she can pee and the pitt came straight to Julie and snatched her. My aunt tried to save her but the pitt took her straight to her owner's house. One of the neighbors climbed the fence but it was too late for Julie. Julie only weight 3lbs . When the cops came with animal control the owner of the pitt said, he was not putting his dog down. The owner was horrible to my aunt did not even apologize for her loss and was very rude to her. She would go to court by there is nothing they can do. The cops fined this person $600. Its increadible how these dogs can kill an inocent animal and the authorities not do anything about it. It could of been a child or another person. My aunt is very sad and so are Sasha & Casey. She said, ever since the incident the girls cry when she gets home from work -when they never have. I mean, Sasha & Casey witnessed everything that happen to Julie. My Aunt said, she was trying to run as fast as she could after the pitt to save her baby but she could not. She does not know what else to do. Her girls wont eat and they always want to be on her lap-she said they were never like this before. Any suggestions.


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## Gizmo's Mommy (Oct 22, 2006)

OMG how horrifying for all.. I hate those dogs and worse is owners who won't own up to thier dogs actions. I hope your aunt takes them to court, it won't bring her baby back but the satisfaction of putting the owners in thier place would be great...


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## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

i am so sorry  that is so terribly sad  

where does she live that he has the option whether or not to put the dog down for killing a pet? i didn't think owners had that choice.


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## appleblossom (Mar 10, 2005)

OMG that is horriable I feel so bad for your aunt & her chis too. I dont think any dog wether it be a chi or a pit should be allowed to run free with out being fenced in a yard it not only protects people but the dog as well. It ashame that there are such poor pet owners out there.


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## SCRAPPY (Sep 4, 2005)

Jen said:


> i am so sorry  that is so terribly sad
> 
> where does she live that he has the option whether or not to put the dog down for killing a pet? i didn't think owners had that choice.


we live in florida and my aunt said, the owner has a special license for this dog. thanks!


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## Kari (May 13, 2004)

That is so sad!


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## appleblossom (Mar 10, 2005)

A special license? What exactly does that license say that the owner can let the dog run free & neither the dog nor the owner have to take responsibility for their actions? What if it had been a child instead of a chi would the dog have been put down then or would they just send it back home with a fine? I too live in florida.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

she can still take him to court for emotional damages and any vet care, because the dog was offleash the owner IS at fault whether he "has a license" or not.

that being said, PLEASE dont blame the breed, for one, pitts, bull terriers and the likes have a hard enough time dealing with the stupid people in this world as it is.
this breed by nature is DOG AGRESSIVE! its NOT the dogs fault its the way we as humans bred them.
This breed is also NOT by nature people agressive, in the breedes development ANY pitty showing sighns of people agression was culled. unfortunatly there are now people out there that breed wily nilly and have turned the breed into this monster people fear, for every bad "pitt" story you hear there are hundereds of stories about these dogs saving peoples lives, sniffing out drugs, making peoples lives wonderfull that dont make it into the news because as a race humans much prefer scare tactics over fuzzy happy stories.

This breed has enough to deal with.
this is NOT the dogs fault, this is the idot owners fault this breed is known for dog agresion and like ANY other dog agressive dogs should only be walked on leash under 100% control of its handler, this also goes for shepards, ridgebacks, boxers, rotties, danes, mastifs, dobermans ANY breed that by nature has a tendency towards dog agression.

There is NO corralation between dog agression and human agression, one cannot say "what if had been a kid" because this dog may very well not have a single agressive bone in its body towards people, yet be incredibly dog agressive. again, this is a breed trait, and the OWNERS responsibility to control.

had this dog attacked a person, just as if ANY dog showed sighns of human agression (in an cuncontrolable manner) ANY breed, pit, chihuhaua, ANY, in my books, it visioulsy bites a human, it is put to sleep, dogs like that are too unpredictable. 

the other thing to remember is pitty attacks are often completly off on the point, 90% of all pit attacks, have been proven AFTER the fact that the dog was NOT infact a pittbull!
labmixes and cocker spaniels account for the MOST human and dog attacks!
and many lab mixes look like pitties.

i am truly sorry about what happens, that dog should have NEVER been offleash, and she has every right to take him to small claims for emotional damage and veterinary costs, lisence or not.
The owner was at fault, doesnt matter what state your in.
Would i advocate putting the dog down? not nessicarily, dog agressive dogs can live long full lives in the right hands but the dog SHOULD be taken away from its current owner and evaluated, if it shows no other sighs of agression then rehome to an experienced home. that man has NO buisness owning a dog, a responisble owner would know that!

he'll get his, Karma is a bitch.

sorry for the rant. i HATE seeing pitbull attack stories because 99% of the time its no fault of the dog, and the entire breed gets stuck with the rep thanks to some stupid humans actions.


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## appleblossom (Mar 10, 2005)

Foxywench Im not trying to start a fight or anything Im just trying to understand what you are saying about Dogs biting people. Are you saying people aggressive dogs should be put to sleep or are you saying that any dog in general should be put to sleep if it bites a person out of fear? My chi Tader doesnt like alot of people & will bite if he feels threatened I am aware of this & I dont allow many people into my house because he could bite if prevoked or frightened. So if he bites out of fear should he be put to sleep?


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## LadyBelle1 (Sep 10, 2005)

That is really sad. Your poor aunt, unfortunately if you she took the owner to court I doubt she would win because they would just say her dog was not on a leash either.


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## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

Oh I'm so sorry I hate people who have vicous dogs & I don't understand why they would want them  I'm so sorry ((hugs))


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## Pookypeds (Jun 20, 2006)

I've had the experience of seeing a neighbor's 2 pitbulls attacking each other by the throat with blood everywhere and not letting go of each other for nearly an hour! And I am the one who called the police about it, because the neighbor girl was hysterical and couldn't get them off each other....blood was all over her apartment. Alot of neighbors started gathering around, and NOBODY knew what to do.....finally I thought maybe if someone could spray them with a fire extinguisher, then maybe they will let go of each other and something could be done. I got my fire extinguisher, and another neighbor guy sprayed them down with it, and then they got them apart. Police finally came after everything is over with. The thing is, just because a human wasn't attacked, nothing could be done about it supposedly. And that wasn't the first time of a problem with these 2 dogs! One actually tried to follow me into my apartment once. Thank God the owner got her back to her apartment! If I had opened MY door, my chi's would have been killed by the pitbull! Another couple of times they came after us and company we had over, and again the owner got her back in. Thankfully we do not live there anymore! But I do admit I am NOT a fan of pitbulls! Every time there has been bad experiences with them! And I pretty much love all dogs......big and small!!


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## Pookypeds (Jun 20, 2006)

And I meant to say to you, Scrappy, so sorry about your Aunt's precious little chi! That is soooo sad, I almost feel like crying. If it was me it probably would have taken several people to hold me back from killing that pitbull!


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## Emsy (May 3, 2007)

*That is so sad*

I am so sorry to hear of your Aunt's loss, That must of been terrible.
Even if this guy has a special Licence ask to see it or find out what kind of licence it is and read it to see if it covers dogs of the lead and not muzzled.
Here the KC rules are that a dog should always be on a lead. 
I would go for emotional upset and get councelling paid for by the owner for myself and the 2 remaining dogs as they are clearly disturbed by it.
If the dog is insured the owner could claim it off that,for third party liability.
Even though none of this will bring Julie back the owner needs to face up to what kind of dog he is letting out on the streets.
I hope your Aunt and her dog's eventually get some justice.


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## Ory&C (Mar 20, 2005)

I am so sorry to hear that!!! It is always sad when you have to say goodbye to your pet, but to let them see die in such a way is just too much!  I really feel for your auntie and I don't know what I would have done.... I'd probably go crazy if a thing like that happened to Billy!




> Its increadible how these dogs can kill an inocent animal and the authorities not do anything about it.


Not sure what you mean by "these dogs" though. If you mean aggressive dogs, then let me tell you that there is always a reason why a dog attacks. It is usually the owners fault, because we are the ones that socialize our dogs and if we fail, it's completely up to us to take the responsibility!
If you mean Pits than let me tell you that all of us dog lover know better but to blame the whole breed for the actions of a few individuals....... I wonder how we'd feel if someone started saying some bad things about ALL Chihuahuas!?


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## Rah (May 3, 2007)

I too am incredibly sorry for your aunt's loss. That is a terrible thing to happen. But I will agree with Ory - don't judge the breed by the actions of single dogs. There are pitbulls that are lovely dogs to have around, when the proper actions have been taken to socialise them as pups. Blame the owner for the dog's behaviour.


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## Jayne (Jul 8, 2005)

I am so sorry to hear about ur aunts dog, its tragic ur aunt must be devestated, big hugs.


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## sullysmum (Mar 6, 2004)

Thats one of the saddest things ive heard, im so sorry!


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## Rubyfox (Jul 11, 2005)

OMG I feel sick, how awful.

RIP little Julie XXXXXXX

I hope the owner gets whats comming to him. arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr dont they just hate irresponsible dog owners.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

Foxywench Im not trying to start a fight or anything Im just trying to understand what you are saying about Dogs biting people. Are you saying people aggressive dogs should be put to sleep or are you saying that any dog in general should be put to sleep if it bites a person out of fear? My chi Tader doesnt like alot of people & will bite if he feels threatened I am aware of this & I dont allow many people into my house because he could bite if prevoked or frightened. So if he bites out of fear should he be put to sleep?

No fight  i was a little vauge, 
when i say Human agressive i don tmean dogs that will avoid a bite unless needed (my dodger boy would probably bite if someone realy pushed him) i mean dogs that visiously, repetativly whent for humans without any visable reason.
ie if soeones just walking down the street and a dog comes running out of the bushes and attacks, that person has given no viable reason for the dog to attack, that dog is unpredictable and hsould be put to sleep.

however if someones walking down the street sees a dog on a leash thats growling, telling the oncomming person it doesnt want to say hi and they aproach anyway, then that dog is controlable it gave warning and should NOT be put to sleep however that dog 100% needs to be under the owners control at all times.

sorry i didnt make it too clear in my initial post.
Ory, and Rah are completly right, to see a well bred well socilized pitty/staffy playing with its people, those dogs shine in the right home.
thus far my favorite is a large male pitty, hes a trained therapy dog, and works in childrens hospitals, hes been doing it for 10 years now and still going strong. that dog just lights up when hes around kids, and pitties/staffies are one of the few breeds that truly smile.










as dog owners and lovers we should know! blame the DEED not the BREED.
human error is a terrible thing, but thats what this and most dog attack cases are, human error.

would this be a different convo if someone came on here saying "a chihuahua attacked my *insert breed here*, chis cant do as much damage as a bigger breed but its still as bad.
the bull and terrier group has gotten a bad rap thans to stupid people, dont add to that list. forgive the breed, blame the idito that should have had it on a strong leash and under control.

There is NO muzzle law here in the us like there is in the UK. however there IS a leash law.


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## BellaLina's Mom (Mar 16, 2007)

I'm so sorry for your aunt's loss. What a heart break to lose Julie in such a terrible way. Our deepest sympathies....


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## rachel (Jun 16, 2006)

I'm so sorry for aunt's loss. I can't imagine how horrible that must have been for her to have to watch that happen. I'm sorry, I don't have any suggestions on how to get her other two to eat...maybe just try a little at a time until some more time passes. ? 

I have to agree with Foxy & Ory&C on the pitts. I would never own one, but that's just b/c I wouldn't want a dog that strong & powerful. I think a dog's behavior definitely reflects the owner's training with the dog. Watching Cesar Milan with all of his different breeds, including the "bully" breeds has totally amazed me! And given me a completely different outlook on the different breeds. Unfortunately though, I can't say that if something like that happened to me, that I wouldn't hold at least something against the breed. Even knowing that it was really the owner's fault. 

I can't believe they only fined her! I don't know that I would agree with putting the dog down, but I definitely think it should be taken away & put in a place where they're trained to deal with aggressive dogs. 

Again though, I'm so terribly sorry for yours & your aunt's loss.


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## Gizmo's Mommy (Oct 22, 2006)

I know the owners of the pitt that attacked my son two years ago had NO choice in the decision of putting that pitt down. The dog was taken away for tests and a week later put down. After the tests they found nothing wrong with the dog other than his bad temperment...This dog bit through a winter coat and tore my sons arm pretty good. 
Taken, tested and put down..for the attack.


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## Pauline Leland (Oct 9, 2006)

How awful! My sympathies to your aunt. What a horrid experience. What a horrid owner.

As for her remaining chis, if they are still not eating, maybe she should get some of that liquid, Nutrical?, for them so they don't get ill.


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## SCRAPPY (Sep 4, 2005)

thank you all for your kind words.I dont have anything againt the breed.I've had pitts before and they have been good dogs specially with kids. Im just so mad that the owner was such a jerk with my aunt. At first she did not wanted to go to court, but the cops convinced her. She's so overwhelmed with her loss. She says her girls are tramatized since everything happended in front of them.Julie was so bad that animal control did not want my aunt to see her. She wanted to bury Julie in her back yard, but i think it was better if she didn't see her that was.I dont know what I would do if somthing happens to my babies


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## Love-Lola (May 23, 2006)

Aw. My heart goes out to your auntie. I know that her baby will go to a good place. Karma bites, so the pitt owner will get it.


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## SCRAPPY (Sep 4, 2005)

thanks you!


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## ChihuahuaMad (May 4, 2007)

foxywench said:


> she can still take him to court for emotional damages and any vet care, because the dog was offleash the owner IS at fault whether he "has a license" or not.
> 
> that being said, PLEASE dont blame the breed, for one, pitts, bull terriers and the likes have a hard enough time dealing with the stupid people in this world as it is.
> this breed by nature is DOG AGRESSIVE! its NOT the dogs fault its the way we as humans bred them.
> ...


wow what an amazing post! i totaly agree with everything you said ion both posts, i couldnt have put it better myself.

 a Staffie and Pitt lover myself here in the UK there has been TOO MANY bad stories in the press latey and i get so sick of hearing the same thing, a "pit bull type" or a "staffie type" these dogs are amazing and probably the most loving of all towards humans in the right hands. in the wrong hands they can be VERY nasty! so do NOT blame dog agressive breeds blame THE OTHER END OF THE LEASH! i get so anyoyed with people saying this breed should be banned! how about you takle the underlying problem, the PEOPLE! should we ban Labs because here in the UK they are the most commest recorded attacks? no and why dont you see many soties about lab or most other breed attacks? because people want to hear about the "nasty" dogs that have attacked, they wont believe a lab could attack! grrrrr:evil1: 

i am part of an awesome staffie website called www.staffybullterriers.com, go on here and talk and see for yourself how amazing this breed is!  

Sorry for the rant but is has to be said to protect these breeds!


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## HenrysSam (Apr 14, 2007)

oh the poor poor baby, & your poor aunt  i don't know how i would ever get over something like that. People make me mad how they think they are "it" owning a vicious dog that they have no control over, i don't blame the breed but it would seem pitts & staffies all too often fall into the hands of ignorant people, as it is "cool" to be seen with one.


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## tiny- dog- luverr (Oct 28, 2005)

at first i was about to blame pit bulls as a breed then i took the time to read through all these comments and i can see its totally the dumbass owner. i think the owner should be put down. its awful. i hope in time those 2 remaining darlings recover and hopefully stay well away from that owner and his untrained dog.


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## Pauline Leland (Oct 9, 2006)

I have mixed feelings about aggressive breeds, including dog-aggressive breeds. It may be all the owner's fault, but still, how can society control this situation? Wring our hands when an incident occurs and address just that case? Not all pet tigers are vicious, it's the owner's fault when they get loose, but I don't want any pet tigers in my neighborhood or my town! Is that analogy outrageous?


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## Jennifer&Patrón (Apr 25, 2007)

awww im so sorry to hear that.. that is so hoirrble. a lady i work with,lynn, has 2 pits, and her neighbor (who was a good friend of hers) let her lil poodle loose to run freely, & it ended up wondering into lynn's backyard, went up under a lil whole in the fence or something where one of her pits had dug a spot to sit in the dirt ya know.. well naturally the pit went after the poodle, & then her neighnor ran back there into her yard, & the pit bit her in the back of the leg.. but to me in that situation, why were you not watching your dog when you know your neighbor has pitts & you cant expect to run up into someones yard who has a pit & the dog not do anything.. i mean they are pretty much guard dogs.. well the lady ended up sueing lynn, & had her pitt put to sleep.. its totally diff from puttin your pup down to potty & having a pit come from out of nowhere & snatching it up.. so what happen to her chi was messed up.. but the other lady was just kinda sittin on her porch not even paying attention to where her poodle was wondering.. ive had 2 pits, one was more a guys i was dating back in high school, but i took care of it & it was like mine.. then i got one prob when i was about 18.. she was very sweet & shared the yard with a lab pup & they had no problem.. but she got stolen out of my backyard..


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

Pauline, that analogy doest work because tigers are unpredicatble WILD animals, they are not and never have been bred to a persons specific needs, they are not pets and should not be owned by anyone other than a zoo with the correct facilities to home such a beast, being wild animals they are UNPREDICATBLE. thier behavioural patterns can be swift random and have no warning.

pittbulls/staffies ect are NOT unpredictable to a RESPONSIBLE owner.
dog agression is not an unpredicatable behaviour, dogs odnt by nature simply go for a dog of a person, they display warning behaviours that ANY responsible owner would notices before the dog lunged, a responsible owner would also anticipate their breeds natural behavioural pattern.
Pits just like ANY breed are prone to certain behavioural patterns, a responsible owner knows these common behavioural patterns. Just like a chihuahua owner learns and deals with the chis common behavioural problems, i mean come on honestly, ive heard of MORE chihuahua attacking people than pits attacking people!

Pits, staffies, dobermans ect are more prone to dog agressive behaviours, a responsible owner knows of these behaviours and knows how to control their dog or avoid those situations.
just like a person with a breed like a dogo, or a fila ect those with natural extreem protective instincts bordering on human agression in some cases, any responsbile owner knows what situations best to avoid, agression in 99% of cases is NOT unpredicatable as it would be in a wild animal.

we also must remember that we as humans have created these breeds, we as humans played god and now we as humans decided we dont like the result lets just ban it so itll go away. we cant sweep it under the rug.

i do belive however there should be better screening for ALL dog owners before they can buy a puppy of any breed. this problem is not one of what breed the dog is, but an irresponsble owner.

i do feel terrible for what happend, please dont see that as anything different, but i honestly think we as dog people need to step back and make sure we see this is NOT a problem of what breed did it but a problem of there are some people out there so irresponsible they should not own ANY dog! and the owner of the "pit" in this case is one of those people.

once again, would this be a different conversation if it was a chihuahua that had attacked someone/someting?

you have to remember many areas demand pits and pit like dogs be pts without so much as a temperment test.
Chihuahuas have cause more damage in terms of frequency of bites than any pit, how would you feel if people decided chihuahuas were nasty and put a breed ban on them? all of us have wonderfull chihuahuas, but not everyone out there is so lucky, you would defend your breed correct? if someone tried to lable chihuahuas visious and put a breed ban on chihuahuas, youd try and protect your breed correct?

i personally would never own a pit, i adore staffybulls, but i adore my chihuahuas first, i understand dtaffies like all bullterriers are prone to dog agression and im not wiling to put any of my dogs in that situation, not just because of the damage a staffy could do to a chi, but because that would have been MY fault for putting that dog in that situation.


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

I just can't understand that view. It's all well and good to say its not the dogs fault, it is the owner, but that is no help the for parent of a child that has been seriously mauled or worse, nor the owner of another dog that has been killed or seriously hurt. In an ideal world, of course all owners would be responsible and all of their dogs would be well behaved. This world is far from ideal and we need to protect the vulnerable and the young and if that means banning animals that are potential killers, then so be it. I am a big big animal lover but, to me, pets are a part of the family that can interact with society as a whole. To have a dog that is so powerful and, you have to face it, many of them (pitbulls) are unpredictable, how is that a pet! Of course, that can be said for a few doggy breeds, including Chi's, but Chi's, and many other dogs are not potential killers! You cannot liken a badly behaved Chi to a badly behaved Pittbull! My daughter has a friend that had 3 pitbull type dogs penned up in the garden. I did not allow my daughter around the house once I learned of this fact. If people think I am small minded, so be it, but rather that than have to attend hospital to have my daughter's face stitched back together or worse, like the little girl on New Years Eve, that was mauled to death by the family Pittbull! Sorry, if I am offending anybody, that is not my intention, but to my mind, coming on here to comment on the thread "a pittbull ate my aunt's chihuahua" and stick up for the pitbull breed, is insensitive. It keeps being mentioned that Labs are the most common attacking dog. This may be true, but how many stories have you heard where a Lab killed a child or a dog? Not many, if any! So we have to be realistic here!!!


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## Pauline Leland (Oct 9, 2006)

Just to continue the debate - if some breeds are predictable about attacking other dogs, I don't see that as a safer situation than keeping a wild predator as a pet. Nasty chis don't compare because their jaws can't inflict as much damage as a larger dog.

Maybe the dog's potential for injury is the issue. How do we make sure that dogs with a high potential danger rating stay out of the hands of irresponsible humans? How do we define a PDR for a dog, or irresponsibility in a human? We might use breed as a standard for PDR, but then what about mixes? What percentage in a mix? Maybe by weight - a 10-lb dog obviously has a lower PDR than a 110-lb dog. What about 20 lbs, or 30 lbs, or 50 lbs?

Responsible people are hard to define, too. How to screen them? We could use age, like we do for drinking laws. We could eliminate convicted felons from owning dogs with a high PDR. Perhaps some misdemeanors should be added to the list. Is passing a training course required? (I can just imagine the Cesar Milan camp going toe-to-toe with the clicker trainers to establish the training program.) Or all breeders, including BYB's, could use a standard checklist to query potential buyers of high PDR dogs. And then how do such programs get funded and enforced, especially in this day of tax revolts?

Outlawing by breed is an easy way for a legislator or council person to react to community outrage, since the number of outraged voters is usually far greater than the number of voting breed owners. It doesn't address the human side of the problem or the problem of vicious golden retrievers. 

I don't know that there is a practical solution. For instance, how many chi owners allow their pets to continue to be fearful of people and to snap at, possibly bite, strangers. My impression is that a lot of us do. Would we train a larger dog much differently?


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## ChihuahuaMad (May 4, 2007)

lebecron said:


> I just can't understand that view. It's all well and good to say its not the dogs fault, it is the owner, but that is no help the for parent of a child that has been seriously mauled or worse, nor the owner of another dog that has been killed or seriously hurt. In an ideal world, of course all owners would be responsible and all of their dogs would be well behaved. This world is far from ideal and we need to protect the vulnerable and the young and if that means banning animals that are potential killers, then so be it. I am a big big animal lover but, to me, pets are a part of the family that can interact with society as a whole. To have a dog that is so powerful and, you have to face it, many of them (pitbulls) are unpredictable, how is that a pet! Of course, that can be said for a few doggy breeds, including Chi's, but Chi's, and many other dogs are not potential killers! You cannot liken a badly behaved Chi to a badly behaved Pittbull! My daughter has a friend that had 3 pitbull type dogs penned up in the garden. I did not allow my daughter around the house once I learned of this fact. If people think I am small minded, so be it, but rather that than have to attend hospital to have my daughter's face stitched back together or worse, like the little girl on New Years Eve, that was mauled to death by the family Pittbull! Sorry, if I am offending anybody, that is not my intention, but to my mind, coming on here to comment on the thread "a pittbull ate my aunt's chihuahua" and stick up for the pitbull breed, is insensitive. It keeps being mentioned that Labs are the most common attacking dog. This may be true, but how many stories have you heard where a Lab killed a child or a dog? Not many, if any! So we have to be realistic here!!!


i can understand your point of view to protect your children and thats understandable. In my opion EVERY dog owner should have to have a dog licence and it should be MANDATORY to go to dog training classes, this is with every breed. i know when you face a chi with a pit, you know the pit will do much more damage but that is why we have to have something to control A- the population so stupid people who breed pits left right and centre for £ or to fight are given a real bad punishment. and B- to control the amount of control people have over thier dogs!

and the reason you dont hear of lab attacks or killings is beacuse they dont make an interesting headline to the idoits of the media. look, which attracks your attention more-

LAB ATTACKS A CHILD or

DEVIL DOG PIT BULL TERRIER MAULS CHILD

??????????????


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

I take your point on the media and how they like to spice a story up to sell newspapers. However, please quote an incident where a Lab has killed a child. I am sure it must have happened somewhere at some time, but not case after case, like the ones we see in the headlines regarding Pitts, Rotties, Dobermans, etc. I am not a Pittbull hater in any way. I love all animals. I just feel you have to be realistic - would you like to live nextdoor to a home that housed a couple of Labs or a couple of Pitts? If we were all honest the Labs would come out better because, regardless of media hype, Pitts are an extremely powerful and unpredictable animal in many cases. I am sure you might get the odd loopy Lab, but hey, can we really compare the two! My family had a very nasty experience once where my brothers Westie was savagely attacked by a neighbours Staffie. My brother, who is a strapping 6 and a half foot big built guy, could not get this staffie to release his Westie from its mouth. The staffie only left his Westie when the Westie became unconscious and the Staffie lost interest and walked off. This did not make me hate Staffies! However, I fear them as I do Rotties and other large breed dogs that are powerful and, on occasion, unpredictable. Pitts and the like have become trophies for lots of teenage boys these days, as have Chi's become the new "handbag" for young teenage girls (thanks for that Paris, Britney and a few others). Anyway, I've said my piece. Thanks for listening:foxes15:


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## Rah (May 3, 2007)

Ugh, handbag dogs  My mum's friend came round with her daughter yesterday - and the daughter totally loves Nicole Richie/Paris Hilton etc. She picked up my puppy and said 'Mom, how does it look?' - holding my Baby in a very 'accessory' sort of way. My mum also told me that this young girl had said to her mom that she hoped her cats would hurry up and die so she could get a Chihuahua. 

So yes, I totally agree with the notion that EVERY owner should have to have a dog license, and go to training classes, and possibly even be visited to check how they're doing with their dog. But then I also think this should be the case with some people who want to have kids (you know the kind, that want a baby because they want a doll to dress up? Or to get benefits ) but we can't all have our way 

And also, I think it's just a terrible, terrible shame that dogs were ever bred for aggression and fighting. And when other dogs suffer for it, whatever the reason, it's a terrible thing.


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## ChihuahuaMad (May 4, 2007)

lebecron said:


> I take your point on the media and how they like to spice a story up to sell newspapers. However, please quote an incident where a Lab has killed a child. I am sure it must have happened somewhere at some time, but not case after case, like the ones we see in the headlines regarding Pitts, Rotties, Dobermans, etc. I am not a Pittbull hater in any way. I love all animals. I just feel you have to be realistic - would you like to live nextdoor to a home that housed a couple of Labs or a couple of Pitts? If we were all honest the Labs would come out better because, regardless of media hype, Pitts are an extremely powerful and unpredictable animal in many cases. I am sure you might get the odd loopy Lab, but hey, can we really compare the two! My family had a very nasty experience once where my brothers Westie was savagely attacked by a neighbours Staffie. My brother, who is a strapping 6 and a half foot big built guy, could not get this staffie to release his Westie from its mouth. The staffie only left his Westie when the Westie became unconscious and the Staffie lost interest and walked off. This did not make me hate Staffies! However, I fear them as I do Rotties and other large breed dogs that are powerful and, on occasion, unpredictable. Pitts and the like have become trophies for lots of teenage boys these days, as have Chi's become the new "handbag" for young teenage girls (thanks for that Paris, Britney and a few others). Anyway, I've said my piece. Thanks for listening:foxes15:


Hey, i do understand both parites, im sure most people would prefer to live next to lab but not me i would prefer living next to the pit. this is becasue most people take everything the media say about these dogs and hype it up even more, beleving every word that is written/spoken. they dont know any different and THAT is what annoys me the most, how can people comment on things and try and ban breeds they know nothing about! i know these types of dog are more likey to attak another dog, and cause more damage to anything they attack, so maybe extra training should be mandatory, im not sure, we need something to be done to stop things like this happening but ALSO to protect these amazing breeds. they deserve it, as they are the most devoted dogs to thier owners and are nicknamed "the nanny dog" as they are absolutly wonderful with kids. However with ANY breed, you should NEVER leave your kids alone witha dog, even whilst you pop to the loo, and thats another thing people dont understand.

We created these breeds and now we want to ban them too! whats that about!!


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## Jennifer&Patrón (Apr 25, 2007)

i had a doberman too! i got her after someone stole my pit out of the yard. i had her for about a year & then had to give her away, b/c the guy i was dating kept her at his house, when we stopped dating, my grandmother wasnt about to let me bring her home! she went to a friend, but then got ran over by a car a year later.. & she was a absolute sweetheart! i dont think shed have made any kind of guard dog! ha ha she wanted to kiss & play with anyone who walked up to her!

pits got a bad name b/c there are sorry people out there who actually train their dogs to kill, whether it be pit fighting or just to flat out make them mean.. if one was raised right it wouldnt attach for no reason. like i said my pit & old boyfriends lab were best buddies.. dogs like that can be used for protection, but instead of giving them proper obidence training (obidence being the keyword) they train them to like no one other than theirselves, so the dog doesnt like anyone, not just intruders or someone trying to do something to you..etc.. ive seen them raised right, and wouldnt hurt anyone or anything unless you broke into their house or they were given the command!


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## ChihuahuaMad (May 4, 2007)

totaly agree with you there Jennifer!


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## Tyler (May 18, 2007)

So sorry Scrappy, what a horrific story. I would be devistated and don't know how I would recover from such a thing. 

I agree with everything Foxy said. A dog is only what you make of it. A pit can scale a 6ft fence easily, so keeping them unattended in the back yard is only asking for trouble. Sorry not speaking of the pit owners who know their pups would never harm another animal or person. The owner of the pit clearly at fault here. We own two bullmastiffs as well as small dogs. A male and female. They've had extensive training and been socialized since pups. When I want to walk my tiny I always take one of my bulls with me, both always on lead. I know my tiny is protected, with one of them there. Thankfully there's never been an incident and I hope there never is. I'm very strict with my bullies, I don't allow any kind of rude behavior. No barking over the fence at neighbors, no growling out the window, no crotch sniffing, no jumping, always step off the sidewalk for others, etc. We don't own a pit because they're too high energy for us and need too much exercise. I think they are beautiful sweetnatured dogs who love to give love when they are properly raised and handled. First thugs bred dobies and gave them a bad name, then rotties and gave them a bad name, now it's pits and they're giving THEM a bad name. Thugs will eventually move on to another breed. When there are no more working breeds left they'll move on to retreivers and sitters and the like. BSL doesn't now and will never work.

- I used to live in Orlando, Fl. Before we left a little girl was mauled by a golden retreiver. 

- A woman in the UK had her face torn off by her pet Lab recently. She had the worlds first face transplant.

- I used to work at a groomers. I tried to cut the nails of a Lab and it jumped me. Had me on my back, shaking my arm. They had to pull him off me. My arm was in a sling for a week, I couldn't work. I hadn't even cut one nail yet. 

- My husbands parents got a beagle pup last year. They raised it with absolutely no leadrship. The pup did not respect them. It bit them several times, always drawing blood. It bit their grandson and grand daughter, drawing blood both times. It eventually launched a full on attack on their grandson causing permanent damage to his hand. He plays bass no more. They still kept him. The last last draw was when he launched himself thru the air towards their grand daughters face (9yrs) because she'd dropped a treat and he wanted it. He was grabbed in mid air by my FIL. They put the pup down at 1yr old.

- In puppy class my male bully was attacked by a basset hound, two different blk flat coated retreivers and one golden retreiver. There were mastiffs, dobies, rottys, german shepards, boxers, american bulldigs, and pits in the class who NEVER started a fight in the year that I attended, two days a week or more. Consistant offenders were so called "Family Dogs" (of which there is no such thing). The offenders were also owned by the TRAINERS and OWNERS of the school 

- Also a pom has killed a baby before.

- A chi severed an artery in an animal control officers arm. She nearly died from blood loss.

Of course there's thousands more breeds from A-Z. It's just that they're yawners and no one cares or cares to know. 

I agree, "Lab tears off womans face" BOOOOOORINNNNNG...yawn,snore......

But, "Pit tears off womens face", EX-CIIIIITINNNNNNG!!! HORRIFIC!!! TELL US MORE! WAS THERE LOTS OF BLOOD?!!!!! 

The mention of the breed was only mentioned ONCE in the beginning of the story, then it was kept hidden after. Of course if it was a pit it would have been exploited and repeated again, and again, and again, and again, and again to infinity and back. 

No bad dogs, VERY BAD dog owners. Tyler


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## ChihuahuaMad (May 4, 2007)

well said!


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

All of the attacks you have mentioned are, of course, awful but fact is if a Pitbull/Ptbull type had decided it didn't want its nails cut, you maybe wouldn't be here to tell the story. Get my meaning!!! My point is this: Yes, there are lots of breeds out there that can do damage, even Chi's, as quoted in your list. However, the usual outcome from a Pitbull/Pitbull type dog is death or severe damage in one way or another. I have made this point before, I know, but such a powerful dog (not just Pitts - other dogs that are physically much stronger than the average human) cannot ever, in my opinion, be regarded as a "pet". They can inflict severe damage or even death and how parents can have these around their own children, let alone other people's astounds me.:foxes15:


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## Tyler (May 18, 2007)

You make a very valid point. I know I have over 200lbs of muscled dogs that are in my care. They make great family pets if you know what you're doing, do your research, and training, training, training. In my opinion training, leadership, and obediance must last the life of the dog who lives with you and your family, not just in the first 6mo's to 1yr. My husband and I have taken great strides and take every precaution to insure the safety of humans and our dogs. We don't train our BM's for guard work (and NO ONE should) and discourage guardiness with consistancy. My two would NEVER bite, attack or harm a child or an adult ever. If you see these signs early on in puppyhood, (which we never did with our two), you sort it out then and you keep on it, till you've succeeded. Thugs and the like don't do this. They want a mean scary dog. I've been a member of a very active "bullmastiff only" forum for about 2.5yr's now. We have over 500 members. Everyone there knows the responsibility which falls on their shoulders by owning a powerful breed. Since the time that I've joined there have only been two incidents with biting from a bully. A rescue bit it's new owners hand, dog was immediatly put down. Another rescue bit it's new owner in the face (she's fine), dog was immediately put down. We don't mess around there. No second chances for the dog. I've nothing againest rescues but sometimes you don't know what all you're getting. All dogs that have been raised own the forum have NEVER bitten anyone. Any problems that arrise we all band together to help sort it out. We're very successful. When you own a powerful breed and another human steps on your dogs tail, paw, or pulls it's ear, your pet should walk away if they don't like it. This is how a properly raised working breed (or any breed) should react to ALL humans, with respect, not a correction back to the human, by growling or biting. They must have bite inhibition and it must be taught from puppyhood. A friend of ours upon first meeting with our male tried to rub his belly. We rub his belly and thought nothing of it. But Kahuna did not want this and he responded appropriately by getting up and walking away. This is a proper response in a pet. Not a growl or a bite. Also, there are no THUGS or backwood, no obediance training ******** on our forum asking how long can our dogs hang in the air holding onto a bite stick or padded arm. No one on our forum is buying BM's and using them as a poor mans gun like a hillbilly or thug does with a $25 pit they buy on a whim out of the back of a pickup truck cause there little girl wants a puppy. Then they do zero to train it and when it bites or attacks a person or another animal they don't take any responsibility and pay nothing to you for your medical or loss of your beloved pet. There is no possible way to lump all owners of working breed dogs together. There's good responsible people who will always own working breeds and always do the right thing and never have an incident.

As for the Lab at the groomers, yes a pit might have seriously wounded me. I'm not sure how much, the dog was tied to a 4ft lead that was actually shortened. The Lab couldn't reach my neck. The most common offenders were lasa opso's, cockers and poodles. As for the calmest and most trustworthy, they were the working breeds. Plus, folks that had a powerful working breed that didn't like baths would not bring them in. You get a feel after working there for awhile. It's like you know what the statistics are and who's likely to give you a problem. No working breed ever so much as growled at any of us, but we always prepared ourselves for the little ones, which bit and growled daily. Obviously I have nothing againest little dogs because that's what we've always had. We still have a griffon and a pug. I'm really not trying to change your mind, but I know before we got our first big dogs we had some of the same thoughts as you. It really just comes from not knowing. After you own one, you get it. You really do see, a dog is just a dog. Now mold it and do right by it and others.  Tyler


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## Tyler (May 18, 2007)

My gentle boy, Kahuna and Teeny Tiny Hermionie looking at the ceiling fan. I don't know why. Tyler


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

so essentially lebcron your saying we should not keep ANY dogs over 30lbs as pets (since any dog over 30lbs can easily cause lifethreatening damage)

well have fun with your itty bitties, but as much as i love my chis, i lov emy big dogs too! and in fact, ive met 300lb mastifs that make BETTER family members than most small dogs!!!

WE domesticated them, their personalities and behaviourla patterns are OUR problem to deal with, and by dealing I DONT mean kill them because there "dangerous"
my FIRST dog was a 200lb euro great, i got him at a terribly young age and I raised him, not my parents, not my family, ME, he was my best friend. we whent everywhere together, i rode him like a pony, i slept ON him. he was also 100% deaf.
that dog NEVER even gave me a sidways glance, he could have easily killed me had he wanted, heck he was taller than me for YEARS! i had him for 13 years before he passed in his sleep of old age. that dog was better and safer with kids than ANY smaller breed...
infact id trust a dane with a child sooner than id trust ANY chihuahua with a child!

but mabe im just strange, i was almost literally raised by BIG dogs...by "pit type" dogs (great danes are listed on the "dangerous dog list because as mastifs they are considered "pits") id trust them any day with a child...ANY child if the dog has been bred and raised properly.

TYLER: Kahuna is GORGOUES!!! lol


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## maureen (May 9, 2004)

lebecron said:


> I take your point on the media and how they like to spice a story up to sell newspapers. However, please quote an incident where a Lab has killed a child. I am sure it must have happened somewhere at some time, but not case after case, like the ones we see in the headlines regarding Pitts, Rotties, Dobermans, etc. I am not a Pittbull hater in any way. I love all animals. I just feel you have to be realistic - would you like to live nextdoor to a home that housed a couple of Labs or a couple of Pitts? If we were all honest the Labs would come out better because, regardless of media hype, Pitts are an extremely powerful and unpredictable animal in many cases. I am sure you might get the odd loopy Lab, but hey, can we really compare the two! My family had a very nasty experience once where my brothers Westie was savagely attacked by a neighbours Staffie. My brother, who is a strapping 6 and a half foot big built guy, could not get this staffie to release his Westie from its mouth. The staffie only left his Westie when the Westie became unconscious and the Staffie lost interest and walked off. This did not make me hate Staffies! However, I fear them as I do Rotties and other large breed dogs that are powerful and, on occasion, unpredictable. Pitts and the like have become trophies for lots of teenage boys these days, as have Chi's become the new "handbag" for young teenage girls (thanks for that Paris, Britney and a few others). Anyway, I've said my piece. Thanks for listening:foxes15:


Well put. My sentiments exactly.


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

you wont hear of that many lab attakcs, because quite honestly those dogs are often MISTAKEN for "pitbulls" most people wouldnt know an actually pitbull if it DID bite them.

honeslty if you were being attacked by a dog, any dog, would you honestly take the time to look at it closely to see if it realy WAS a pitbull?! NO you dont, even cops have admitted to claiming a pitbull on sceen only to find out after the attack that the dog was NOT a pitbull or bully breed at all. Many mixed breeds and purebreeds containing NO pitbull whatsoevere look like what the public considered a pitbull...

again, im talking about responsibly bred dogs in the hands of responsible owners. i honestly belive there should be a test to own ANY dog!

but you cant say just because a breed is big and powerfull and looks like what youd consider a pit and the guy next door considers a lab and the lady next door considers a shepard mix, that they should be and because they must be pits and they must be visious...

its 100% all about the peoples whos hands these dogs are in!


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## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

maybe they can't identify the breed as it is attacking but don't you think once it's over they can identify it correctly? i'm just not sure what you mean that most attacks attributed to pitbulls aren't pitbulls at all?


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## sazzle1 (Mar 18, 2007)

My parents have 2 Scottish Deerhounds and my Dad told me of a similar story about a bull terrier (not the Staffie kind, the other one) who physically attacked a Deerhound in a park, went for its chest, and killed it in a heartbeat. And this is a miniature bull terrier taking on a HUGE deerhound! There's always going to be stories like this as long as we have irresponsible dog owners who never train their pooches. It's sad really. But UK authorities are now prosecuting/jailing dog owners, so that's a good thing.


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

You know, Foxywench, no matter what anybody says, you are not going to change your mind. To you Pitts and the like (who cares whether they are 100% Pitt - the potential damage they can do is the same, whether they are Pitt, x breed or whatever). I have said so many times now - Pitt or other powerful breeds that owners cannot control. You and others keep harping on about snappy Chi's and the like. Please - to compare the damage a Chi can do to the damage a Pitt/powerful dog can do is laughable! 

My eldest daughter is absolutely terrified of large dogs. Very often, we'll be in the park when some idiot lets their Doberman or the like come running to my daughter. She will stand there cry, get herself if a real state and the owner will shout out "its okay hes very friendly". Errr - hello. Just because big dog lovers love their dogs, they think everybody else should. I can't remember the last time a small dog came running up to the children. If anything it's children chasing my Chi's/Yorkie to give them a stroke.

I am sure you are a responsible owner. However, those that are not responsible out there (and there are many of them) have a lethal weapon that lives around mine and other people's children and small animals.

Somebody on here made a point that a neighbour's dog got into the Pitt's garden and felt it was okay that the Pitt attacked the neighbour's dog. WRONG. If you live on a farm, miles from others, okay maybe the Pitt/Power Dog is fine. However, if you live in a street/village, how can you have a dog that can attack other animals/humans.

I'm sure you're Pitts are sweet babies. However for every big sweet baby out there, I bet there's a dozen not so sweet out there and until some legislation is brought in to stop the hoodies parading down the streets with their "trophy" dog at the ready for attack, yeah, I would say these dogs should be a difficult dog to get hold of, at the very least. At the moment, anyone can get hold of these dogs, just a few hundred pounds, and there you go. There should be something in place that only responsible people could actually purchase these animals. You would still get the odd one slip through the net, but I'm sure it would be better than it is now!

My friend was visiting the other day and I told her all about this thread. She witnessed her cat get ripped up by a Staffie in a neighbours garden. That was about three years ago. She is still deeply traumatised by this. She said that she would never home another cat, even though she is an big animal lover, as she said you can't trust Staffie types and there are hundreds of them around. This staff in question was a perfectly "okay" animal. However, he saw the little fluffy kitty cross the fence in his garden (his terratory) and just lost control. Fur flew and my friend collected her kitty in a shoe box, many pieces to collect too! Lucky it wasn't a child jumped the fence to collect a ball or something like that, eh!!!

I rest my case!:foxes15:


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## ChihuahuaMad (May 4, 2007)

Jen said:


> maybe they can't identify the breed as it is attacking but don't you think once it's over they can identify it correctly? i'm just not sure what you mean that most attacks attributed to pitbulls aren't pitbulls at all?


Well said Foxy, what she ment is that pits are mistaken in these incidences, most of the pit attacks arnt pits at all just mixes that could look like a pit but the police and media will claim it is a pit as it makes a better story than "mixed breed dog attacked child" which what it actualy is, they wil print a completly different story as it grabs your attention doesnt it- "vicous pit bull terrier mauls child"


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

exctly chimad...

the majority of "pitbull" attacks end up being lab mixes or shepard mixes. and while the media will occasionally correct their story its not till AFTER the initial story and by then the damage has been done.

for example. tomorrow you see page 1 and there in big bold writing says "pit bull mauls child" the story goes off on how this visious pitbull was blah blah blah.
2 weeks later there has been uproar in the community to ban all dogs of similar breed and its done. pits are banned and everyone with a pit has to move, find a new home for thier dog out of the area or put their loving family pet to sleep.
then theres a change. a necropsy was done on the "pitbull" and its not a pitbull at all, infact theres no "pitbull" type breed in it...
the newspaper heard of this and prints a retraction, on pag 96 in the midst of a sea of other random stories "child attacked by mixed breed" and a short note on how the breed had been misidentified by onlookers.

whos going to see it?! do you honestly go out of your way to look for the tiny updates on those mauled by pitbull stories?!
no...
the media hypes "pit attack stories" because quite honestly the world of humans, we actually will pay more money to read that than we would to read "family lab bites kid"

i honestly dont blame the police, as i said most people wouldnt know a pure bred pitbull if it DID come up and bite them and in the heat of the moment of a dog attack an officer is NOT going to take the time to ask the dog what its genetic past is...the one being attacked sure isnt going to take the time and onlookers are often so hysterical they cant see past the actual attack (most onlookers couldnt even tell you what the person being attacked looked like)
none of these people are trained canine judges, none of them trained to distinguish dog breeds, and when a dog attacks, quite honestly, whats the first breed that comes to mind?! what dog is it we hear about every day attacking people?! pitbulls, therefore when one is attacked 99% of the time in the crazyness your mind does the job of misidentifaction for you...it jumps to pitbull when in rality it might not even remotly resemble a pitbull.

its not till the chaos has quelled (and the story has already been jotted down) that the dust settles and those who have the job of taking a better look realize, wait this isnt and never was a pitbull.

you know, there was one attack i remember personally, i was there, the man was attacked by a german shepard, now anyone thats seen a shepard knows it looks nothing like a pitbull, its got longer hair, a different shaped head and is bigger than a pit...yet this man plus 15 other onloookers swore blind that the dog attacking was indeed a pitbull, even 2 of the officers put in their report stating the dog was a pitbull...even AFTER the dog have been subdued!
THOSE are the cases of misidentitiy im talking about.

and why is it that the good "pitbull stories" are always in tiny font at the back of the paper too?!

you never hear of rufus the 6 month old APBT or Buster the 2 yr old rescue "pitbull" who saved their families from house fires.
or the pitbull who attacked a dog that was mauling its 6 yr old master in their own garden

or popsicle, the amstaff k9 police unit drug dog

or dixie the pitty who put herself between an angry cotton mouth and her familys kids!

Or petunia, a pitty who travels round shools as part od a responsible pet ownership program and "mauls" kids everyday with her slobbery kisses and constant wagging tail

or the pitty who killed a daschund who was literally EATING, a baby! the dashund removed 4 of the kids toes, two fingers and the babyies penis and was pulling and knawing on the childs stomach when the pitty came in and attacked the dashund. the initial story stated the pitbull attacked the child (despite the fact the injuries were ntohign close to a pitbull type attack), the doxie had been the one trying to save the kid and the pitbull was put to sleep, the doxie survived and 3 days later attacked the families 4 yr old daughter severly mauling her face, they were distraught to realize that it wasnt the pit at all and the pit had tried to help their baby!

the difference? THESE are CONFIRMED pitbull stories.
for all the negative press pitbulls get and only deserving many 1/10th of it (and all thanks to bad ownership) you never hear of the good stuff pitties do!

but honestly, i think this discussion has been beaten long enough...
obviously most who dont WANT to know the good these "pit like dogs" can do, wont hear it anyway...
so long as a couple have heard my please for protecting a breed thats so beaten by society ive done a good job in my eyes.


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## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

ChihuahuaMad said:


> Well said Foxy, what she ment is that pits are mistaken in these incidences, most of the pit attacks arnt pits at all just mixes that could look like a pit but the police and media will claim it is a pit as it makes a better story than "mixed breed dog attacked child" which what it actualy is, they wil print a completly different story as it grabs your attention doesnt it- "vicous pit bull terrier mauls child"


i can only speak for myself but if any breed was inserted into your headline it would grab my attention it doesn't have to be a pit bull. look i am not anti pit bull my brother had one and she was a very sweet dog. i also had a rottie myself which when i searched dog bites was with the pit bull as being one of the breeds that has the most reported dog attacks. i also grew up with great danes.

what i was saying is after a dog attacks wouldn't you think someone would approach the owner and would be able to positivly identify what breed attacked them. 

again only speaking for myself i don't believe that other breeds are attacking people but they say a pit bull did it because it makes a better headline.


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## Tyler (May 18, 2007)

My eldest daughter is absolutely terrified of large dogs. Very often, we'll be in the park when some idiot lets their Doberman or the like come running to my daughter. She will stand there cry, get herself if a real state and the owner will shout out "its okay hes very friendly". Errr 
 That's totally wrong and I hate that too.

Just because big dog lovers love their dogs, they think everybody else should.

 Oops not all, not me and my husband. We don't bother to even let our dogs out when company comes. We feel zero need to see you Ooh and Ahh over our dogs. 


I am sure you are a responsible owner. However, those that are not responsible out there (and there are many of them) have a lethal weapon that lives around mine and other people's children and small animals.


 I've seen ariel views of neighborhoods a few times on America's Most Wanted and the like. On the map there's all these little red poka dots. Lots of them, looked like sprinkles on a birthday cake. Only they weren't sprinkles, they were pedifiles. Yep they live all around you. And those are just the ones that are known about, on the governments "Person of interest" list. You have much more to fear for your children than dog.

Somebody on here made a point that a neighbour's dog got into the Pitt's garden and felt it was okay that the Pitt attacked the neighbour's dog. WRONG. 

 I don't feel it's okay, but a dog on it's own property may very well protect it's territory. Other breeds may do this as well. And also some working breeds will do nothing. Sorry one size does not fit all. It's not always just one way.


There should be something in place that only responsible people could actually purchase these animals. You would still get the odd one slip through the net, but I'm sure it would be better than it is now!


 Agree completely. 

My friend was visiting the other day and I told her all about this thread. She witnessed her cat get ripped up by a Staffie in a neighbours garden. That was about three years ago. She is still deeply traumatised by this. She said that she would never home another cat, even though she is an big animal lover, as she said you can't trust Staffie types and there are hundreds of them around. This staff in question was a perfectly "okay" animal. However, he saw the little fluffy kitty cross the fence in his garden (his terratory) and just lost control. Fur flew and my friend collected her kitty in a shoe box, many pieces to collect too!

 My husband had a lab when he was growing up. The neighbors had a little white toy poodle. What separated them was a chainlinked fence. One day the lab jumped the fence and tore the poodle to bits. The little boy next door saw the whole thing. His parents were picking parts of the poodle out of the fence. I'm sure that boy was traumatized as well after seeing a lab do this to his pet. They got rid of the lab.

Lucky it wasn't a child jumped the fence to collect a ball or something like that, eh!!!

 Very lucky, their lab did not like other children.



I rest my case!



 Not exactly. Sorry I'm just a realist. 



Thanx Foxy Tyler


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

Hi Foxywench,

You know, you're really not listening. Nobody is saying it's just Pitbulls. I have a problem with all large breed dogs that the owners cannot control. You are saying that people don't want to listen about good Pitbull stories. Untrue! I am interested in anything to do with animals. However, many people like you will continue to see no harm in "pets" that are a hazard to other dogs and small children. I note my "story" regarding my friend's cat getting ripped up into small furballs, did not get commented upon. How about it. What if it were a child that had got into the Staffie's garden. Bye Bye Kid!!!!!

People cannot continue to have "pets" that are severely hazardous to children and small animals! 

I do agree though, that this subject has kind of run it's course. I won't ever believe that an animal that is capable of killing a human can ever be a trusted pet!!!  Legislation needs to be brought in on many breeds. As you will know, Pitbulls are banned in the UK. However, that did not stop poor little Ellie Lawrenson getting mauled to death last New Years eve.


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## Tyler (May 18, 2007)

Exactly. That's why breed banning will never work. 

It's an incredibly draconian law for our country anyway. It will never succeed here in the states. They are already struggling in Denver, CO to make it work. Owners of pits and the like are banding together, to maybe create an underground railroad of sorts, where folks pets can be harbored and protected until the danger of being put down has passed. Also just outside of CO there seems to be a sancutary starting up for owners. They hold them till the owners can move out of the city. We would move also if someone came knocking on our door ready to give our two the green dream. 


14th amendment;

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or PROPERTY, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. 


This is why it won't stick here. Eventually the supreme court will have no choice but to over rule the ban. 

Tyler


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

*SIGH*

well according to lebecron...say goodbye to all breeds over 30lbs...since they can all kill any dog smaller than them and can all seriously injure a child...what a small doggy world it woudl become...
oh wait, chihuahuas can seriously maul a small child and can kill other chihuahuas...got to get rid of them too (yes ive seen a chihuahua kill another chihuahua and ive seen a child with half a face after their families chihuahua tore into the poor kid!)
I guess i should of killed my 200lb great dane therapy dog who worked with deaf children for 10 yrs...before he had a chance to eat a kid...oh wait he never did...though he did make a very comfortable pillow
and those people out there relying on their larger service dogs...say g'bye to them, ill let you say sorry to all those needing those large potentially dangerous dogs to walk, see, hear or live any kind of real life at all...

---

Jen, note on the media, i agree with you on many aspects, i dont honestly feel the media is always intentionally doing this, however unfortunatly in cases of attack everything is so sudden that noone usually think to question breed, its usually not untill the original story comes out that someone takes the time to say hey wait that dogs not a "pitbull" and then the retraction is often small and hidden. thats the problem.

take alook at my "lets play a game" thread, youll see how easy it is to misidentify a pitty...  personally i was uprised that it even took ME a few times and i know these dogs, ive worked with them for years and was raised with similar.

i do see what your saying...but unfortunatly its usually based on gut reaction at least at first, and by the time its relayed to the printing press its too late to say HEY WAIT, that dog wasnt a pitbull.
and unfortunatly the feel good stories as i said are never printed in the big eye catching font that the attack stories are. and are usualy hidden way back...


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## Tyler (May 18, 2007)

Oooh cops are going to look a bit silly with dachsund guard dogs, although I've heard they can be fiesty. Hmm might also be a good time to start training pekinese for search and rescue. The could put tiny bows in their hair, that would be so festive. I wonder if a chihuahua would fall over with one of those little survivor kits attached to it's collar. Oh never mind it would never work anyway. I mean who's going to want to take the time to put those teeny tiny booties on the little fella to dredge through the snow? Aww makes me feel all safe just thinking about it:wink: Tyler


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## Katie (Apr 9, 2005)

I love all dogs and I think it's sad that they ban certain breeds but on the other hand I know what it's like to be scared to walk your own dog. It's a horrible feeling to feel unsafe to go outside with your own dogs. In my opinion, I think there are many cases where even with proper training and a proper upbringing, a pitbull or other large breed dog can still be dog or people aggressive. Just knowing what they are capable of and the power that they have in their jaws and body makes me wary around them. I wish that weren't the case but it is reality. I would never let my chi near a large breed dog just in case. One bite and it could be over. At least with a small breed there's a CHANCE of my dog still being okay if a fight broke out (and to be honest I don't interact with many other dogs just bc it's not worth the risk). Pitbulls tend to be more aggressive than other breeds so I can understand the ban and unfortunate negative reputation they have. 

And whenever I hear about dog attacks on the news or in the news paper there has always been a picture of the dog to go along with it. Just last week I heard 2 pitbull attack stories (both with pictures). TWO in one week. I know that the situation has gotten out of hand if bans are taking place and although it's sad and unfortunate it makes me feel a little bit better knowing our communities will be somewhat safer.


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

You know what Foxywench, I was right when I said that you wasnt listening. I never mentioned killing anything. I said about legislation to make it difficult for irresponsible dog owners to buy "trophy" dogs to make them look hard.

I don't mean to be disrespectful in any way (though you have been to me) but it is attitudes like yours, where you won't listen to anyone or anything that remotely disagrees with your views, and that is another reason why people are against large breed dogs. They fear them and the potential damage they can do and many (not all thankfully) large breed lovers have the views you have, and will not listen to anyone else. 

You really have to stop talking about the damage a Chi can do in comparison to a Pitt, because it really is just stupid and I have said this before!

You reel of all these wonderful Pitt stories and slate small breeds. Your views are insensitive to others who fear large breeds and you are not helping the cause of people to "understand" large breeds at all. 

I give up with this anyway, cos you won't listen to me or anyone that has a negative view towards large breeds. There are negative traits in small breeds, of course, I have said this over and over. But you have to be realistic on the amount of damage a Chi can do!

---

As for the other comment on here, about small dogs accompanying Police Officers, again silliness! Police Dogs don't usually run around parks off a leash and they have proper training, which is all I have said should happen.

I am glad I live in the UK where at least the authorities are trying to make the place safer for children and small animals, so that attacks are less frequent. 

If you can't see that something needs to happen to make society safer for children and small animals in this regard, then people with your views are selfish. 

All that said. I am done. I do not wish to continue this "debate" any longer.

:foxes15:


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

problem, breed banning does NOT help keep the dogs out of the wrong hands, because lets face it if somene wants this breed as a trophy dog, banning the breed is NOT going to get rid of them, instead its going to have those crazies who cause the trouble find other paths to GET those dogs.

breed banning doesnt help the community, instead it literally ahnds the dogs over to those who should NEVR have them, because those peple are criminals, and how often do you think criminals listen to the law?!
and THOSE are the people who shouldnt own the dogs.

IM 100% FOR introducing a law that requires those interested in breeding, and purchasing dogs that have the potential to kill ANYTHING to take a test, have background checks and know the breed inside out, upside down and left right and backwards...
but then again, i feel that should be the case for ANY breed.

what do you think breed legislation is?!!?!??! the vets KILL the dogs that are banned. SIMPLE. so yes your talking about killing ANY breed that is potentially dangerous and since ALL dogs are potentially dangerous (im using chis alot because there the smallest of breeds and one MOST people wouldnt think could do any kind of damae, with it crazy, because they CAN, they have teeth, they can maul a child!!!)


i vote instead we kill all the stupid owners RESPONSIBLE for the attacks.

i evr said dogs dont attack, I said that tis the owner of those dogs responsbile for those attacks, if you have a large breed, you own up, act reponsible and keep that dog under control 100% of the time! its not some difficult concept to master, its fact, 99% of dog atack cases are 100% their owners fault...
you see a 7 yr old walking a 250lb mastif the mastif pulls loose and attacks a dog, Why the HE ** did that girls parents let her walk a dog that weighted more than she does?! thats irresponsible ownership.

a dog running loose in the park with known dog agression and the owner doesnt care to leash it, THAT is irrersonsible ownership.

dogs cant fight nature, dogs as a while are bred for specific traits that we as humans wanted or want...
its not the dogs fault that some people need culling on the spot because they are idiots who cant own up to the responsibilities that come with haveing a powerfull dog.

breed legislation dosnt work.
but you cant hear that over your outcries to ban any dog ovr 30lbs because it could be dangerous.

and yes this would effect working dogs, police dogs, serivce dogs.
you cant introduce a breed legislation banning certain breeds then make exceptions because "its a police dog" NO, doesnt work, you ban a breed you ban the entire breed...since all dogs over 30lbs have the potential to kill a child fairly quickly that means cops will be running round with mini doxies, chihuahuas and toy poodles as police dogs if that kind of breed legislation passes.

what YOUR not seeing is its not the dogs at all, the dogs have nothing to do with it, its the owners of those dogs!!!
no more said, because simply YOU arnt listening.

Jen: point taken, but remember often times generic picture of dogs are being used, and if you take a look at the thread lets play a game youll see how many dogs look like what most people think look like pitbulls, so a picture of a "pitbull" dog could be a number of breeds to any untrained eye.


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

Errr, yeah, I have been listening and trying to make sense of the "stuff" you have come out with.

Well some people just aren't worth it. Your posts are full of sarcasm and over-exaggerations and quite honestly they are boring now!

I'll not harp on, on the same subject, because it is pointless. I am just glad I live nowhere near you, as you clearly do not appreciate the potential dangers of the animals you are protecting. 

Who cares if it is the owners fault. Tell that to the parents of Ellie Lawrenson who got mauled to death on New Years Eve, or the parents of the baby that got "ripped up" by two Rotties last year, dragged from its cot. I'm sure they'll feel a whole lot better knowing that the dog wasn't at fault!!!

Protect our children. That is the most important thing. Then we'll talk about protecting certain breeds of "pets".rotest:


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## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

Tyler said:


> Oooh cops are going to look a bit silly with dachsund guard dogs, although I've heard they can be fiesty. Hmm might also be a good time to start training pekinese for search and rescue. The could put tiny bows in their hair, that would be so festive. I wonder if a chihuahua would fall over with one of those little survivor kits attached to it's collar. Oh never mind it would never work anyway. I mean who's going to want to take the time to put those teeny tiny booties on the little fella to dredge through the snow? Aww makes me feel all safe just thinking about it:wink: Tyler


this is a bit sarcastic i don't think anyone suggested using small/toy dogs as police dogs :wink:

we all have differing opinions on this subject and after reading all the posts in this thread i don't think anyone's views are going to change. it's okay to differ but let's just keep it friendly okay


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## Tyler (May 18, 2007)

Sorry Jen, I was really being tongue and cheek. Only trying to lighten up the discussion. Just trying to point out the absurdity of not having any large breed dogs available. Saying only police officers could own rotties, pits, and GSD's for police work work never fly. Not saying it was actually said, that's just what I've deduced from the discussion, that regular folk should not have access to them. Sounds great in theory (to some), but applying it would fail miserably. As long as the breed exists, just like thugs and gangsters can obtain guns illegally, they could also obtain big dogs easily. The country would have to be under martial law for it to even come close to working here in the states. And naturally that will never happen. As I said, I'm a realist, not a dreamer. Tyler


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## ChihuahuaMad (May 4, 2007)

i 100% agree with foxy's comments i coulnt explain it better myself!

yes so you think that the PAT dog pits should be banned then? and all the other PAT dogs, dogs for the disabled etc etc that are over 30 ibs!

i totaly understand your point of view and concern for your kids lebecron, BUT you have to look at it from the other side. what if for some reason people wanted you breed of dog banned all because of some pathetic and irrisponsible owners that give your breed a bad name. im sure you will try and make people see it isnt the breed but the idiots behind the breed. thats all that foxy is trying to get across!


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

I wouldn't have a breed that could potentially kill a child or a small animal. It's called being a responsible citizen!


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

By the way, I never mentioned "bans" (as you have said) or "killing" (as Foxywench said I had said) - please, with all due respect, please listen to what I am saying if you are going to address what I have "said". Maybe other people have said it, but I have not.

As far as the Pitbull ban goes - I back that all the way - There isn't much that the British Government do that I agree with. However, thumbs up for this one!!!!!!

I have only ever owned small dogs; Yorkies, Chis and Bichons, and I cannot see that the Government will ever have reason to ban these breeds.

And - trust me - I do understand your view. However, I put humans before animals everytime and anyone that does not - is selfish!!!:foxes15:


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## ilovebambam (Jun 16, 2006)

aww hun i'm so sorry for your/her loss! *hugs*


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## Tyler (May 18, 2007)

lebecron said:


> I wouldn't have a breed that could potentially kill a child or a small animal. It's called being a responsible citizen!


So I'm not a responsible citizen because I own two working breeds?:nshocked2:

Tyler


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

As I have already said, I have three children and many small animals. I also live in a built-up area, nextdoor to a primary school. Being a responsible citizen, I wouldn't consider getting a large breed dog. Not that I would want one in any case!

I wonder if all you lovers of larger breeds have children. I am sure that some of you do and I am more sure that alot of you don't. I think this is where the difference of opinion occurs! Let's see how you feel in the future,if you ever have a little one in the park playing and having fun, when a big dog bounds over, frightening the hell out of your child and absolutely terrifying you at what could happen! You talk about "working dogs". Fine. Let them work. Not play in the parks where our children need a safe environment to "grow"!:foxes15: Where we (parents) need to have fun with our kids without having to watch in the distance for any large lumbering creatures heading our way!

Perhaps your circumstances are such that your working dogs are no threat or worry to the neighbourhood. Perhaps you are completely responsible and do not let your "working dogs" off a leash in public places. Great!!!! Wish there were more out there just like you. However, this is not the case by and large. If only!!!


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## Tyler (May 18, 2007)

lebecron said:


> Perhaps you are completely responsible and do not let your "working dogs" off a leash in public places.


Perhaps you are right.



Here's a link based out of the UK of responsible folks just like me. More than half have children. 

http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/index.php?mforum=bullmastiffforu


Feel free to read through and learn how incredible these gentle and loving giants are  

Cheers, Tyler


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## foxywench (Feb 7, 2005)

as i said, as a child i was RASIED literally by a BIG dog, a 200lb dog to br presice he was my pillow and my pony, my best frined and my blanket and my protector, he wouldnt let anyone suspicious neer me and would have given my life for me. he LOVED kids and the pair of us once i hit 12 started working in a CHILDRENS hospital...

i would trust ANY well bred, well trained well socilized dog under the control of its owner around kids, i dont have kids, i cant have kids. my bf does, and as a kid raised by big breeds, id feel safe introducing his 3yr old to any well bred, well socilized dogs under the control of their owner...SIMPLE and this kid might as well be my own, ive raised her for the entirety of her life...

infact i trust kids with BIG dogs more than i trust them with little dogs!


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## Tyler (May 18, 2007)

Thank you foxy, you're an open minded and compassionate person. And you don't think no one is listening just because they aren't agreeing with you. 

Cheers  Tyler


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## lebecron (May 10, 2007)

I presume that comment was aimed at me, Tyler. If you take the time to read all the pages of this thread, you will see who's not listening here. People have agreed with me on this subject but they have been bullied by you and Foxywench into silence; because the pair of you make snide comments and sarcastic comparisons. Not to mention the amount of stuff that the pair of you have accused ME of saying. Which I actually never did - like the comments of "killing all dogs over 30lb". I never said this EVER. Foxywench just said I did. Also about banning all large breed dogs. Never said it! And your comment about toy dogs being police dogs! You said it. Not me. 

You are small minded - because you can only see your love for these dogs. You cannot understand from a parents/small animal owners point of view, that we are afraid for our little ones. I think that if I hear once more that its not the dogs fault, its the owners, I'LL SCREAM!!! Who cares, it still needs some measures brought in to the help stamp out irresponsible owners being able to own these breeds!!!

My daughter (13) years read this whole thread yesterday. She commented that that you and one other in this discussion constantly repeat yourselves and don't address any of the real issues here. I read back too and she has a valid point.

I really must bow out of this discussion now. I have really enjoyed being a member of this site; learning lots, as I have only had Chi's since January this year and I am really just trying to find out as much about the breed as possible. I got involved in this thread to try to make owners of large breeds understand how us parents feel on this issue. However, anything I say is being ripped apart and misconstrued, so I am wasting my time. There is no point coming on here to argue. That is not what the site is for. Even after the Moderator "warned" to keep it friendly, you still continue to make comments aimed personally at me!

I presume you are very young. I have lived on this earth for forty years and have seen and heard of many tragic incidents involving large breeds. I just want to see something brought in to help protect our children! 

Please do not direct any comments personally to me, as I shall not answer and, where I come from, rudeness is not something to be proud of. Respect, is the key issue here. You need to learn some of this!:foxes15:


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## Jen (Sep 13, 2005)

i'm sorry guys i think it's best to end this okay  if anyone is interested they can take it to pms :wave:


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