# Carnivores or omnivores?



## 17428

Well I got a surprize yesterday!
I took Dahlia in for her shots right?
My holistic vet sold his practice to 2 young
vets.I forgot to dig and ask if they are holistic too.
The vet we saw was very good with chis
and we had a real long talk about their care.
My old vet was a grouchy clam but these guys
were really refreshing.
OK the point here is the new vet told me that dogs shouldnt
be on RAW as they are not carnivores but omnivores!
He said even wolves eat berrys and plants in the wild.
Having all meat will be too much protein and ruin their
kidneys.I was really surprized by his opinion.I know that it can happen
in humans and felines too.Purines get too high and problems start.
He told me that chicken bones are really bad for them and he
treats a lot of dogs with bone-throat(esphophagus) abrasions and tears.
Well I can still feed her boneless I feel.
Some things were good and some confusing about this visit.
I have never heard his theory that they are omnivores!!

PS- He also said feeding raw is just a fad. 
Wow!!!


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## MChis

LOL...gotta laugh at that. Domestication may change behavior...but it does not change the biology of the dog! Dogs are classified CARNIVORES. No vet can argue that one. Sure wolves (and dogs) are very opportunistic. They will eat berries & such if they are hungry & there is no prey around. This can be a very controversial subject but IMO if you study up on the entire digestive system of the dog it is VERY obvious what their bodies were designed to eat.

A lot of the "bones" that cause trouble with scratches in the throat & such are cooked bones...many from pet stores that sell "smoked chew bones" for dogs. These are COOKED bones!

If you look at raw meat...the actual protein content is VERY low. Actually...I just checked my tub of whole ground turkey from hare-today & the crude protein content was 11%. Lower than most dog foods!  Anyway, obviously everyone has their opinions...vets included. But the fact still remains. Vets are trained (for what is it? 14 hours?) in nutrition by DOG FOOD COMPANIES like Purina & Hills. That alone is enough to make me second guess the advice given to me by vets.


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## MChis

Dahlia`s MaMa said:


> PS- He also said feeding raw is just a fad.
> Wow!!!


Actually...before the time that dog food companies came out; raw or home cooked diets were what dogs lived on. I personally feel the "fad" is the prepackaged convinient foods that come in the pretty shiney bags...and that is the fad...that I think is beginning to die out. 

One of my all time favorite photos....


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## 17428

I agree and he totally floored me!!
He is also a farmer and keeps his
dogs outside(large breed most likely).
I told him he was biased as he was
also bugging me to put Dahlia, a 100%
house/lap dog, on heartworm meds and 
bugging me to get her rabies shot.
It is not required by law in Ohio.
She is a pee pad chi only.
He was bugged he didnt change my mind.

Yes exactly about the dog food companys.
They support the vets practice as sponsors
so they push their products.Same theory and fact
how they push shots and products on the dog owner.
It pays the bills between spays and other surgerys/services!!
Oh yea,I see thru it!! Just wanted more feedback to confirm it!! 

Great photo!!
Id love to email it to him!!
They dont have a new website yet!


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## MChis

LOL...I get that too about the heartworm meds & such. And we do do heartgard every other month because the pups do go outside. I mostly got the "suggestion" about the Lymes vaccination. Our vet respects our decision...she just has to "educate" us as she says. haha 

The ONLY vacs we do are Rabies (required by law otherwise we wouldn't be getting it!) & the distemper/parvo series. Anything else I scrap. We don't even do frontline unless we're having a flea/tick issue. I'm wanting to try a new vet but I'm so nervous about the whole shpeal about everything. I hate confrontation & I'm comfy at our vet where they already know I've done my research & know what I want...but I know I need to speak up & stick to my guns. Just hope they don't give me too much of a hard time.


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## cprcheetah

Your vet needs to go back to anatomy  ....dogs are carnivores:
www.thewholedog.org/NHMVTheOmnivoreCarnivoreQuest.pdf You can tell just by the shape of their teeth, the K9's/Fangs are in Carnivores, omnivores generally have flatter teeth (like humans) for grinding not ripping, tearing, shredding etc. In the wild wolves MAY occassionally eat berries and the stomachs but it's few & far between when meat is scarce. My uncle raises sheep/cows and loses some on ocassion to wolves/coyotes and very rarely is the stomach/intestines (where plant matter would be found) eaten. Also dogs do not have the enzymes in their saliva necessary to digest a lot of plant matter.

Dogs were fed raw/scraps LONG before kibble even was thought of, kibble was invented for convenience not because that's what dogs 'needed'.


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## MChis

BTW, glad you stuck to your guns.  Too funny he got a bit bothered he couldn't convince ya. hehe


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## 17428

Yea I am going to avoid certain topics with him.
He did say he "respects" his clients wishes which
I feel is a step up from my other vet there previously
and others in this town.I tried a few before finding this one.
But I dont share his belief that dogs are omnivores.
Im not getting sucked into debates either with this guy.
Hopefully we wont need to even see him for a year!!
Bring on the glucosamine and pass it around!!


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## Brodysmom

I'm not surprised your vet said that. Of course you might see a wolf eating some berries in the wild or some windfall fruit or some nice new shoots of grass. But that's because it tastes good, not because their bodies need it. Wolves are opportunistic. As are dogs. 

If your vet thinks that dogs are classified as omnivores, guess he needs to tell the Smithsonian, as they are scientifically classified as carnivora.  All if takes is one look in their mouths to see those sharp teeth made for slicing and tearing meat. Not for grinding grains. 

I tend to agree with your vet on the protein issue. However, as Heather pointed out, *raw meat is low protein.* About 18-20% depending on whether you are feeding poultry or red meat. The water content in raw is very high, as high as 75%. High protein kibble that are based on plant material can be as high as 60% protein. I think there is where you might run into problems with kidneys processing that plant matter and soy protein. People that feed very high protein diets need to really push the water on their dogs as that dry cereal with that very high protein level certainly can cause kidney damage in the long run. 

I do limited vaccines as well and heartworm only during the summer months and at 45 day intervals instead of the 60 day. As soon as we have a hard freeze, the heartworm meds go up in the cupboard until spring.  I have never had to use any flea treatment on Brody since he has been on raw. He has also had negative stool checks for any kinds of worms/parasites.

Oh, and I LOVE that old photo of the old time butcher and his raw feeding cart for the pets. Awesome.


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## Mom of 4 Chi's

Carnivores! 
Dog food was invented.... Raw has always been!


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## woodard2009

MChis said:


> LOL...I get that too about the heartworm meds & such. And we do do heartgard every other month because the pups do go outside. I mostly got the "suggestion" about the Lymes vaccination. Our vet respects our decision...she just has to "educate" us as she says. haha
> 
> The ONLY vacs we do are Rabies (required by law otherwise we wouldn't be getting it!) & the distemper/parvo series. Anything else I scrap. We don't even do frontline unless we're having a flea/tick issue. I'm wanting to try a new vet but I'm so nervous about the whole shpeal about everything. I hate confrontation & I'm comfy at our vet where they already know I've done my research & know what I want...but I know I need to speak up & stick to my guns. Just hope they don't give me too much of a hard time.


I'm glad I read this topic! It's so true in so many ways. I, too, would like to try a new vet, but I've been with the same vet a long time & she knows our history. It's too scary to start over new. I don't do heartworm, never have. Not sure if I really should, but have never had any problems. I never did flea/tick stuff until now. Have to because Midgie's allergic to fleas, but going to try to limit as much as possible. We don't get rabies, don't care if it's the law. She has been fully vaccinated tho.


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## Amandarose531

I don't think your vet has all his ducks in a row on this topic, however I don't think he meant harm. 

Truthfully it can be bad as we know not to feed a dog a balanced diet and I think anytime someone reacts poorly to hearing "raw diet" it's generally because they assume the person isn't educated on the topic and is just throwing meat scraps. 

I spoke with my groomer about it when we saw her last week, asking if she had any clients with raw fed animals etc. and if she could tell a difference. She said there were some variances here and there but for the most part from a _groomers perspective_ she couldn't tell a large difference between a dog on high quality kibble and proper supplements, and a dog on raw. She did acknowledge some things we know like smell, weeping etc. is sometimes lower in a raw fed dog.

Anyway I digress, I think since your new vet already said he will respect your wishes I think he's probably just in tunnel vision and means no harm. I know my vet is an old man set in his ways and it probably wouldn't go over too well.

**edit: also I wasn't aware that so many people didn't do heartworm. In Idaho we never did it and I never thought twice but here we do it every month. I guess because there are SO MANY mosquitoes and the pups are outside etc. I feel bad i've kind of just been blindly doing these vaccines and things I was told are good for them and come to find out they may not be.


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## 18453

Opportunistic canivores no way about it

Commercial dog foods have not been around for that long considering how long dogs have been domesticated for, some smart alek decided to make cereal for dogs and the craze caught on because it's convenient


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## 17428

Thanks everyone for your much needed opinions.
I agree with all that has been said here.
He was looking out for his practice and us too I feel.
But Im firm about pumping pesticides and rabies
meds in her when we dont need it.


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## Smith

A really interesting thing about the stomach eating theory: often the stomach and intestines are simply ignored when wild canids eat their prey, but when it IS eaten, the stomach is torn open and shook vigorously to remove most of the plant matter held within. So, even when canids do eat stomach lining, they 'clean' it first and pass on the veggies. 

Interestingly enough, if you give your dog a nice-sized piece of tripe, a lot of them will shake it before they eat it. You don't tend to see this with other cuts of meat, but tripe gets a shake! Wild, huh?


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## Deme

I rememberr as a kids our dog were fed on pedigree chum and scraps from our plates and they were strong helath dog with shiney glossy coats. we even had a racing whippet that was so healthy she was a champion racer that was never beaten.

As to berries and such in the wild an animal will eat what it needs, some plants have good digestive aids when eaten and if an animal is lacking in anything it will eat what it needs to put itself right but for a dog, wolf, dingo etc raw is its main source of food.

Some people though do go to extremes, giving tons of supplements and being over specific in how and what they feed.

Refering to horses I knew one lass who admitted she fed her horse more supplements than feed.. uhh.. that stunned me. That makes me wonder how any people over vacinate and over supplement their dogs for every possible ailment going? 

I too am not goign to use Frontline jsut because its due, I brush my dogs everyday and if I see a little unwelcome blighter then I will see to it but otherwise I leave alone.

Worming.. I wish there was a natural way like with horses rather than putchemiclas into my dogs. Or maybe there is and I don't know about it.

With horses we worm for Tapeworm and all stages of Redworm only, the rest of the time we do egg counts from their poop.

Can worm counts be done with dogs?

Well that's my two cents worth if its worth that much lol

Cheers

Deme x


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