# WHy the difference with deerheads/appleheads?



## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

I've been wondering for a long time, but now I want opinions or someone to give me so facts. How is a deer head and an applehead considered the same breed? They look very different, yet are cosidered chihuahuas. My friend just got a cute 8 month old little deer head, his name is Max, and is so stinkin adorable. When looking at him and Gizzie they look so different, but it's the same dog breed. I think it's one of the only breeds that their looks differ so much? I mean most if not all pure breeds have the same look? Am i wrong?

So I wonder...How this came to be? Are deerheads considered "purebreds"? I know the AKC recognizes appleheads, but what makes an applehead the "ideal" chi if a deerhead is considered a pure chihuahua too by breeders and people in general? I know when I visited Mexico I saw more deerheads and black & tans. Whereas over in the states we see so many appleheads? I know my mom when she was a teen in Puerto Rico she had really little appleheads, one cream, and one brown.

Enlighten me! I am so over looking online for some kind of explanation and find none! LOL


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

7 views and no answers huh? LOL...
The mystery continues....


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## chimama (May 14, 2004)

Yes deer heads are purebreds. They are not sure how chi's came to be but one of the books I have shows a fennec fox that they think may be linked to the ancestory of the chi and that definately does not have an applehead.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

Appleheads are a dominant feature in chihuahuas. However, 2 appleheads are able to produce puppies with longer snouts. This is considered a throwback to the breed. People will buy these puppies and then breed them. Eventually the snouts will get longer, and the heads will become less domed. A good breeder will breed for appleheads, and put a spay/neuter contract on these puppies with slopier domes and longer snouts. 

Deerheads are considered purebreds. There are many deerheads registered with the AKC. It doesn't make them any less of a chihuahua. Every breed of dog has its own set of standards... it is more so the traits that a perfect representative of the breed will have. It also is a set of guidelines to keep the breed pure. If deerheads were considered to be breed standard, and people keep breeding them, eventually there would be no more appleheads.

Every breed can have it's faults, they are just a lot more noticable with chihuahuas. I've seen many dogs who are purebred who stray from breed standards. I guess that since we look at chihuahuas more so, we notice their faults more and more.

Madison is a deer head... but his head is pretty domed. I love him... but he should never be bred, and his parents should have been fixed. Rylie and Chloe are both appleheads, and they look so different than Madison. People will always ask me what kind of dog Madison is, since his head shape is so different.

Edited to say: the chihuahuas ancestors date back to the Techichi, who was larger than the typical chihuahua of today, and had a deer shaped head. They also say that chihuahuas could be related to the fennec fox. If you look back at old pictures and artifacts of chihuahuas, you will see that they are more deerheaded looking. I guess that the AKC has revised the breed standards for chihuahuas quite a few times. People prefer appleheads because of their baby-like faces, with a rounded head and protruding eyes. As most breeds are manmade, people will pick the features that they like and breed for them.


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

Right I know they are purebreds I just wondered why AKC doesn't recognize the look of a deerhead if their pure. For example, Gizmo is a CKC Long haired, he has a round apple head, he is stocky and looks like a short haired apple head but with longer hair. Then I have another friend who has Martini, and Martini is a long haired but has more of a "tweener" look, she isn't a deer head, her head isn't really round like Gizmo's but she is AKC. Then we have max who is a total deerhead and is AKC also.
With that being said, all these different looks made me wonder how one breed can have so many differences in looks and still be called a chihuahua.
I looked online and geez the debates get nasty...So I figured I'd ask here and see what the opinions were.


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

Ok..... first I want to say that I am not trying to offend anyone and I am not saying one is better then the other. Every breed has faults in a chi litter of 1-4 even bred from champion dogs they will not all be 'show dogs' or meet the AKC breed standard, somewhere along the line the so called deer head popped up. We all know how some breeders are so this dog gets bred and of course BYB are not breeding for the AKC standard so more and more deer heads are born. Then these breeders found that breeding dogs with smaller heads results in less c~sections less money spent more money in their pocket. There is an online breeder who has lots of dogs all dear heads. Some look nothing like a chi and more like min pin's. 
The bottom line is BYB's will breed anything once you have a dog with a fault and breed that dog throwing more pups with faults it goes on and on till they don't exactly look like how they were supposed to.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

You can find non-breedstandard dogs in every breed. There are labs who are larger, golden retrivers with longer snouts, poodles with a different headshape, german shepards with incorrect tail carriage. The AKC has standards in order to keep chihuahuas looking the way that they do. If AKC started changing their breed standards, chihuahuas would not look the same way as they do now. Deer head chihuahuas would be able to be shown, and would be looked at as the same quality of dog as an applehead. I love all chihuahuas, but I love a nice applehead. It is just how chihuahuas are supposed to look.


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

See that's my point Jessie, I love both looks, so nobody get offended. But I am seeing more and more deerheads, and less of the applehead look. My friend bought her Max knowing he wasn't an apple head, but for Martini, she bought her thinking she was one, and then when I got Gizmo wondered why his head was so round compared to Martini's, and that Martini was AKC and Gizmo CKC and he looked more of the standard.

Anyhow it's something I find intruiging and you're right that all breeds have their non-standard looks. However you hit the nail on the head when you said that responsible breeders breed the standard and not those who do not meet them. I guess I just see more of the "breed standard" in other dogs and never thought to notice the chi's

Like I said in my original post in Mexico I saw the longer snout, flatter skull. I thought that was interesting considering their origin, and the color also, I saw many black and tans


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## chimama (May 14, 2004)

I have to say apple heads are my fave too. I do have a deerhead but I am fussy about the heads, especially when I am buying one. I just prefer the applehead look. My mom laughs because I am so fussy about the head.


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

i like appleheads too  but rockys not hes more deer and i love him too, but like what was said he shouldnt (and wont) be bred. i believe people should only breed to better the breed, and applehead is the standard so deer heads shouldnt be bred.


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

See but we're the exception Tiff, most people breed their dogs without thinking about it, although some on here bred their dogs knowing they don't look anything close to the standard "sigh"
I personally love the applehead look, when getting Gizmo I made sure that was priority, then I saw Gizmo and was amazed that they could be appleheads PLUS long haired's!! It was a bonus for me...LOL...I was like "No way" then I remember talking to Martini's mom and she's blabbing about AKC versus CKC (she thinks CKC is ghetto..lol) 
I'm just wondering since in the future I plan on getting another chi but it seems more and more I see chi's looking less like they should look. For example Gizmo is a handsome boy, a great representation of the standard, however he has rabbit feet (splayed feet) so when he stands he is like a little penguin in his front feet. I KNOW that is a fault, and knowing so I knew from the get go I could never breed him. But so many people offered me money to stud him even AFTER I explained his fault.

ANyhow....I love them all, but ya gotta admit that overly round head makes your heart melt


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

http://www.hockenhaus.bravehost.com/SireDam.html

I just came across that site on my deer/apple search, and what the heck? My Gizmo is not desirable because he has a small snout and big eyes? Anyhow see for yourself.

_A deer head chihuahua in our opinion is the way to go when it comes to chihuahuas! Instead of the traditional "applehead", the deer head chihuahua has a narrower and longer head and muzzle, has longer legs and no "bulgy" eyes. Typically, the appleheads are more prone to eye problems and also prone to more respiratory problems because of their noses being shorter and compact. The Deerhead has a much longer muzzle, therefore less problems! Deerheads are also less prone to eye protrusions. They basically look like tiny, tiny deer! 

_

Out of curiosity do deerheads have open moleras?


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

nope rocky doesnt have a molera. i dont think he ever did actually. rocky does have the dome shape to his head but a much longer snout. now oscar, to me, has a great applehead. its funny they say they have eye problems, i havent heard anyone on the board so far have one with eye problems or repsiratory problems at that. i LOVE appleheads  thats why i was more picky when looking for my second, i had to have long hair but i also wanted a nice applehead with big ears 

ETA: oscar does have an open molera, just to add


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

I love Oscar..he reminds me so much of Gizmo as a pup, 'cept he has the dark hair around his muzzle.  

And I too have never had issues with his eyes, now with his molera yes, it still is open but it's the size of a pea, the vet said it's nothing bad and he will be fine, but I still freak out when he hits his head. I do have skin issues with Gizmo, however, we just changed his food AGAIN, he is on Innova and farting up a storm. Oh and no respitory problems

Where was I? Oh yes, I love your boys!!


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

Just thought I'd throw it out there that I think appleheads look more like little deers than deerheads do .... which is wierd. Deerheads (to me) have the same shape head and look like any other dog, but smaller ... kinda like a tiny lab with erect ears.


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

opps...double post!


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

thanks, i love him too. appleheads are the cutest IMO, and when i picked up oscar i the first thing i thought was omgosh he looks like gizmo  hes getting redder too  i love his little black mask   his molera is probably the size of a nickel still, but hes been ok with it so far. i get worried too sometimes but rockys sweet to him, oscars the fiesty one  i had major skin issus with rocky too. what is wrong with gizmo? i have had him on natural balance (they have a few allergy forumlas) for months now and hes never had such nice fur before. its really starting to grow in the past problem areas. i had him on wellness simple solutions but he wasnt eating enough, and was too skinny. now hes much healthier.


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## Gracie'smom (Jan 7, 2006)

Okay guys....I've wondered about this forever. I've been told that Gracie was applehead, and I've been told she's deerhead. Not that it really matters....but what do you guys think?


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

she looks more deer to me


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

Deer head...but a cute one at that!


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

yes def a cutie


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

Tiffany-
Gizmo had had horrible psoriasis, big red welts, anyhow his hair has been super greasy, and he itches. So he he was on another dosage of clavamox, for about 2 weeks, twice a day, and he seems better. FOR NOW...this is an ongoing thing, he is allergic to so much, even grass! My vet suggested changing his food to innova and I have, but he doesn't like it. So my once hefty 7 pound chi now weighs 5.9 pounds! He still is built like a tank and by no means looks skinny but he has momma worried.

He is fine for now, but honestly if he gets another flare up I am at my wits end. I don't know what else to give him, put him on, bathe him in...poor lil peanut


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

thats very interesting because my bf's parents doxie had been having horrible skin issures too. they put him on antibiotics for so long that he now has a TERRIBLE bacterial skin staph infection. they have to bath him with this special shampoo everday so he doesnt itch his skin off  the vet thinks its allergies but he is on special allergy food and this is a very recent problem for him adn hes almost 3. i think his is a thyroid problem bc hes very overwieght for no reason, and has been loosing his fur by his tail and most of his trunk. hes been on prednisone and fatty acid caplets and nothings helped. have they done blood tests on gizmo? have they tried the fatty acid capsules?


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

He has a fatty acid supplement in liquid form but it seemed to make his hair greasier. We'll see how he does for now and then off to a specialist if he doesn't get better. He had a bad ear/skin yeast infection as a pup and from there it went to psoriasis. I was bathing him in that Nusal T shampoo but this vet said to stop it as it can aggravate things. Also he has reactions to all vaccines and just had his rabies so it seemed to make things even worse. He hasn't had the blood tests done, but the did other tests and he has no other skin afflictions. I can't even leave him in the sun because he likes to be belly up and he gets a rash! Sigh'


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

very strange....sound so similar, minus the overweight part. they have done lots of skin scrapes on snoop (the doxie) but it hasnt shown anything. shes having a hollistic vet look at him to see what she thinks, she doesnt know what else to do. snoop is so itchy he scratches its raw. 

poor gizzy i hope it gets better


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

Thank you! For now he is better, so let's cross our fingers he stays this way


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

BYBs and puppy millers breed deerheads for many reasons. Their breeding stock is cheaper. The puppies are easier to birth because of their longer heads. After the Taco Bell craze, a lot of people preferred them. Also, deer heads do not normally have the open molera.

Speaking of the open molera, the AKC had it in their breed standards up until 1991-1992 ish. Chihuahuas had to have an open molera. Rylie still has a huge molera, and Chloe has one about the size of a pencil eraser. Madison never had one. 

I look down upon any breeder who chooses to breed for deer headed chihuahuas, because in my opinion, a good breeder is one who breeds to better the breed. Like I said, I love all chihuahuas, but traditionally, a chihuahua should have an apple head. If I am spending money on a dog, I want one which looks like the breed is supposed. All dogs their faults (there is hardly ever a perfect breed specimen, even a champion will have its faults), but I like mine to look close to the breed standard.


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## Gracie'smom (Jan 7, 2006)

Interesting fact about the molera. I never knew that. Gracie never had one, either.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

Usually the smaller the chi, the bigger the molera as well. It is interesting how they can differ so much in looks.

When we bought Madison, we didn't know much about chihuahuas. When we went to his breeder's house we felt horrible for him, and we had to buy him. Deer heads are adorable, breed standard or not


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## Gracie'smom (Jan 7, 2006)

~Jessie~ said:


> Deer heads are adorable, breed standard or not


I agree! I didn't know much about the difference at the time I got Gracie, either. Looking back, I would have to say that her parents and sister were definately appleheads. Gracie was the runt, half the size of her litter mates, and I just fell in love!


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

Gracie looks similar to my Madison. She has a definate dome to her head, but her snout is longer. I never saw Madison's parents, but I really think that he had one apple head parent, and one deer head parent.


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## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I personally have both & love both equally the same  I hope the deerhead never goes away because I would surely miss them  They're both very cute that's all that matters to me.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I completely agree, Alisha  I love all chis- I think that they are all so cute!


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## Gracie'smom (Jan 7, 2006)

Well here's a strange question for you....Do all Chi's look like little deer when they sleep curled up, or is it just deerheads? Months ago that was what got me wondering just what Gracie was. She looks like a little fawn when she sleeps. (especially with that coloring!)


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## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I know noone was trying to offend but this whole subject bugs me as much as the size subject does  I'm not sure why It just feels like it's constant compairing in chis small vs big , deerhead vs applehead  I just don't care I need to stop reading threads like these because they make me very very sad


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

The best way to tell the difference between deer and apple is to look at them from the side (profile view). Appleheads have a prominant L shape slope between their head and their snout. Examples (my dogs dislike profile pics!):

Apples:
Chloe:










Rylie:


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










Deer
Madison:


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## Gracie'smom (Jan 7, 2006)

I see what you mean. Thanks! btw-in that pic of Madison he really reminds me of Gracie. I love the color of his nose!


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I've always thought that Madison looked a lot like Gracie! His body is long as well, and his ears normally flop


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## lalaNlucky (Jan 10, 2006)

I had my lesson in this last night! apple vs deer haha


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

lalaNlucky said:


> I had my lesson in this last night! apple vs deer haha


Haha! It's interesting huh?


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## lalaNlucky (Jan 10, 2006)

yeah but i had a good teacher though, lol! i even got a live demonstration of the "L"!!


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I should be a deer vs. apple teacher now! I can make charts of the "L"!


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## lalaNlucky (Jan 10, 2006)

haha yes!! have little seminars


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## dolly'sgrandma (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm going to jump in here...I think chihuahuas of almost any breed look so different...they can be any color, they are short and long-haired, and the whole head thing! I keep messing up when I see a long-haired chi... or what I think is one---I'll say, "Aw, a long-haired chihuahua" and the owner will say, "NO, it's a pom". Or once I was SURE a min-pin was a deerhead (it looked so much like my Dolly). But no...longer legs and over all "bigger". All that to say, the traditional look of the chi (to me that is short-haired, applehead) does need to be protected. I have a deerhead and I adore her, but I think my next will be apple (however, that means I would have to look for him/her, and dogs tend to come into my life).

The great thing about chis, to me, is THE PERSONALITY. That alone is unique to the breed.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I am all for preserving the breed standards  I think that the breed standards are very important in continuing exactly what the chihuahua is. A good breeder in my opinion is one who breeds for typey dogs, who come from good lines. A good breeder should be breeding two typey dogs, because they want to better the breed. If you can't give something to the breed, you should not be breeding.


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## hestersu (Jun 18, 2006)

I really find this thread funny. Let me explain before anybody gets offended. I got my first Chihuahua in 1965/66. Her name was Honey and was a fawn color. She was purebred and considered to be the perfect example of a Chihuahua. She was a deerhead and probably weighed in at 6 pounds or slightly more. Applehead? Oh my lord, nobody wanted one of "those" dogs. Not breed standard. Get a Chihuahua under 5 pounds? Not breed standard. I could go on. 

My point is, the breed standard does change over time because tastes change over time. I spent a lot of time in Mexico as a teenager and most Chihuahuas I saw were deerheads. 

I've bred horses, cattle, dogs and fish in my lifetime. The one thing I've learned is you can put two animals together that on paper, should produce something wonderful. And low and behold, you get something you didn't plan on. It happens. There can be a gene out there just waiting for the right combination to pop up. Or you can put two animals together that aren't so great and get something amazing that can never be duplicated again. Funny how nature works. I had a mare once that wasn't too pretty to look at. Her head was wrong. Her body was thin. She was an excellent breeder and had the goods when it came to her own breeding. And she could run a hole in the wind and then some. She had beautiful babies that had great heads, good bodies and good cow sense. I'll never have another breeder like her again. She was awesome. When I sold her, I quit horse breeding. 

I'm not going to get too worked up over appleheads vs deerheads. Both have their supporters and quite honestly, I like them both. I probably like an applehead just a little better, but I'm choosing a pet now. I want a healthy animal who represents more than just the physical traits of the breed. I want to look at the whole package. My own dogs will not be bred. Sadie will probably be too small anyway and I see a few things in her that I would not want passed on. But like my mare, it is conceivable that she could produce something amazing. 

Just remember, even the best, most pure champion can produce something less than ideal. If the gene pool was limited to only a selected few animals (whether dogs, horses, cattle, whatever), based on a chosen few determination of what was "correct", then it would be a shallow pool and you would probably end up with something that would not ultimately survive as a breed or line. 

Just my humble opinion based on many years experience. Your mileage may vary. Remember to fasten your seatbelt. Do not fold, bend, mutilate or spindle.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

Chihuahuas are a little tricky on "randomly" getting the headshapes, though. Genetics can be funny, and mutations can occur... but that can happen with everything (like the merling pattern, eye color, etc).

Since the applehead is dominant, two appleheaded puppies have a strong chance of throwing an entire appleheaded litter... some puppies may not have as prominant of a headshape as their parents, but they should be all appleheads. Now, breeding two deerheads together is recessive, since both genes are there for deerheads, the litter will most likely be all deerheads. For example, blue eyes are recessive. If both parents have blue eyes, most likely their kids will have blue eyes. Brown eyes are dominant, like appleheads... it's very uncommon for 2 typey chis to have a deerhead. If you keep breeding chis with longer snouts together, you will over time lose that typeyness which the breed standard calls for.


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## LuvmySkippy (Oct 11, 2005)

All I know is that right now, I have a beautiful, fuzzy, sleeping deerhead chi in my lap. Some of you talk like she should never have been born.


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

LuvmySkippy said:


> All I know is that right now, I have a beautiful, fuzzy, sleeping deerhead chi in my lap. Some of you talk like she should never have been born.


Im not sure what forum you are reading?? noone said anything about them never being born. If you would reread most of us have both. We did not make the AKC standard a question was asked and we answered to the way it is right now in 2006 and the proper AKC standard. All dogs no matter what kind should have a home. Some breeders should not breed but it does not mean these dogs should not be born.


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## lisalikesmakeup (Jun 28, 2006)

I have a dumb question. But what doesn fawn mean?


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

Fawn is a colour  Yoshi is fawn.


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## lisalikesmakeup (Jun 28, 2006)

Ah okay, I was thinking that because my breeder put that description on my deposit reciept! Thanks! Yoshi is adorable.


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

Thank you, I think she is too


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

Rylie is fawn with blue markings. Fawn is the dilution of brown.


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## hestersu (Jun 18, 2006)

Clek1430 said:


> Im not sure what forum you are reading?? noone said anything about them never being born. If you would reread most of us have both. We did not make the AKC standard a question was asked and we answered to the way it is right now in 2006 and the proper AKC standard. All dogs no matter what kind should have a home. Some breeders should not breed but it does not mean these dogs should not be born.





> If you can't give something to the breed, you should not be breeding.


It's remarks like this one that can give a person the feeling that their dog shouldn't have been born. I can see where the poster got her opinion. All of the implications in this thread have been deerheads are some how inferior and since they are not breed standard, they don't belong. This whole forum is laced with these kinds of comments from various members. On the one hand, someone says "oh your puppy is sooooo cute" (and its a deerhead) and then in another post, the very same poster will critize a deerhead as being sub-standard and "not giving anything to the breed". Kind of hard to figure out sometimes. Just think about it from the reader's perspective. It comes off as someone is looking down their nose at another person's beloved pet. I don't think that is what anyone really means. I believe we all love our dogs (or whatevers) as much as the next person. We care for them deeply and want only the best for them. I challenge anyone on here to prove me wrong. 

Reading some posts on this forum, you get the impression that only specific people have "good or near perfection" dogs and the rest of us should be ashamed for buying what we bought from who we bought since we obviously don't care about the breed. I'm sure I will be on ignore now from some people since they have blatantly stated in other posts (not on this particular thread) that they ignore posts from various members because they bought their dog from "those kind of breeders" and obviously don't care. That's a pretty hurtful comment. It denigrates the person and their dog.

The current AKC standard is just that - the current opinion of a select group of people. In 15 years, it could be something totally different. Just like clothes, different styles go in and out of fashion. Don't be so critical of dogs that don't meet someone's ideal. Some day, your dog might not meet the ideal and you will be on the receiving end of the criticism. It won't feel too good. 

As I have stated previously, I love them all. They are all beautiful and loving in their own way. I will not criticize anyone's dog for not looking a certain way. If it is good enough for them, then it's good enough for me.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

LuvmySkippy said:


> All I know is that right now, I have a beautiful, fuzzy, sleeping deerhead chi in my lap. Some of you talk like she should never have been born.


No one has said anything even close to that. Who is anyone to actually say that someone or something should not be born. No person can be the judge who who deserves to be born. That is out of anyone's power. 

Every dog deserves a home, but not every person with a dog should be breeding. 

Madison isn't even close to breed standards, and I love him to death. He is my baby, and deserves to be spoiled and treated right, just like any other dog has that same right. That's the problem- his "breeder" left him in a rubbermaid tub full of cedar shavings, and he had ear mites. Obviously his breeder did not care at all about the breed... he cared about the money. Madison has certain aggressive issues which we are sure stemmed from how he was treated as a young puppy. Should breeders like this be breeding? No. Do I regret buying/saving Madison? Not at all. I love him. I just feel as if a breeder needs to be bettering the breed. Producing puppies which stray very far from the breed standard means the breeder isn't doing their job.

Just my 2 cents... doesn't mean that it is necessarily right, but the breed standards are there for a reason. AKC wants to preserve the purity of these breeds, since they are purebred dogs.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

I think that all dogs are beautiful- they are such loving, innocent creatures. Some of the cutest dogs that I have ever seen are out of the breed standard. It does not make them any less of a chihuahua, as champion show dogs can still throw puppies that would not make it in the ring. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "domed head and moderately short snout" have been included in the AKC breed standards for quite some time now. You are making it sound as if it changes from apple to deer every 15 years.

Edited to say: there is no such thing as perfection, either. Even a champion show dog still has some faults. The breed standards are just sets of guidelines to what the perfect specimen of the breed would have.

The majority of us are pet owners on here... not breeders... so who cares whether you have apple or deer heads. They love us just the same, and are all dogs. I love Madison as much as I love Rylie and Chloe, it doesn't matter what his head looks like  He will never be a show dog or a stud, but he is a great pet.



> Some day, your dog might not meet the ideal and you will be on the receiving end of the criticism. It won't feel too good.


Technically, there is no dog that meets the ideal, because that is exactly what it is- an ideal  I've already said that my Madison is way out of breed standards. I still love him just the same. No one has criticised any head shape in this post.


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## LuvmySkippy (Oct 11, 2005)

Thank you, Hestersu for so beautifully articulating what I was feeling about my beloved deerhead. 

Here's a question: If applehead puppies are more likely to be delivered by c-section, and deerhead puppies can get through the birth canal unassisted, what is Mother Nature telling us? Is it evolution? Discuss.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

A breeder who knows their lines will have less c-sections. If a bitch comes from free whelping lines, and weighs over 5lbs they have a small chance of needing a c-section. A healthy applehead female who fits this description should have safe deliveries. Now, people who breed their 3lb appleheads will have problems with deliveries... but these people should not be breeding their dogs as well. 

Now, with deerheads, since their heads are longer they are easier to deliever without knowing much of anything about their past. This is why Texas Teacups breeds only deerheads- they can breed smaller bitches with smaller chances of c-sections.

I doubt that this is evolution. Evolution in dogs is completely irrelevent if you ask me. Dogs were created from human breeders to their liking, and to this day are still be created to this liking.


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

I think things are being too 'read' into. There is nothing wrong with buying a 'deer head ' The fault is with the breeders not the buyers. There is something wrong if you buy a dog any dog then find out it was from a BYB and they have shady breeding practices and then go back and buy another dog from the same breeder. That's where the criticism comes in. If someone post pics of a deer head or apple head sure its cute all dogs are cute and adorable. I also think breeders should breed to the breed standard and if this was a perfect world we would not have all the dogs in shelters and so many 'designer dogs' as we all know its not a perfect world and everyone on here loves their dogs very much no matter what kind they are. No one is saying anything bad about the dogs it's the breeders .


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

WOW! this is getting ridiculous. no one on here is saying one "type" of chi is better than another. most of us on here have both deer and appleheads. IMO dogs should be bred to standard (which is an apple-shaped dome). now, i dont think anyone's dog should not have been born, but they shouldnt be bred bc its not the kc standard. rocky isnt standard but i love him more than the world. and besides having the standard head, i get upset when peope want to bred dogs from puppymills, or when they do not know they backrounds of the parents and grandparents and so on. its just NOT SAFE for the chi, there are numerous health problems that can occur. the kc sets standards for a reason, otherwise we'd have all dogs looking basically the same. this isnt met to hurt anyones feelings, and if we want to ignore certian members bc we dont feel like what they are doing/saying is right then we have the choice to. 

this thread started out so nicely with just a little discussion, it seems like some people want to start arguements and say things that arent true....


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## hestersu (Jun 18, 2006)

I wish to apologize if anyone thinks I was being argumentative. That was not my intention. I wanted to provide a different perspective. I want to be a good contributor to this forum and not considered to be a trouble maker.

To the original poster, please accept my apology.


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

Drama...lol..
It never ceases to amaze me how words can be manipluated in the way the reader see's fit. Anyone can take a sentence out of a paragraph and say this is what you meant, you need to look at things in their entirity. My goodness!

Anyhow I was merely asking about the differences. You're right Tiff this thread was going nicely, hence the word GOING. I logged on and was amazed at where this thread went!
Alisha I don't understand why this thread makes you sad, many people including myself often wonder why the many differences exist in this breed. We need to educate ourselves and understand the breed. Nobody said Deerheads are not chihuahuas, it was stated that AKC recognizes apple heads as the standard and I was merely asking why if deerheads are considered chi's. Their is nothing ugly being said until later on in the posts. I mean for crying out loud, if this is how immature and dramatic posts are going to get I'll refrain from posting anything like this in the future.


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

i just dont want people thinking if they have a deer head type chi that no one likes them when its obvious we love ALL chis! i have one of each and i love them both more than anyone could imagine   its just that the standard is there to keep the look of the chis which we all love


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

This thread was going good, it was very informative. No one said anything rude at all about deerheads. I don't understand how words can get so skewed. Like I said, I love my deerhead! He is just as much of a chi as Rylie and Chloe  Just because his head looks different it doesn't mean that he is not a dog deserving of love!

It was a great question, Sunny. I was very curious in the beginning and I did a lot of research in order to be able to answer my own questions.


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

Thank you Jessie I thought it was a great question also, a question I have always wondered about and wanted to know answers. I too spent a lot of time last night looking online about chihuahuas, opinions on the breed etc. It's just human nature for people to get defensive, this is why the world is the way it is nowadays and why I have such a hard time with students..lol...it all starts at home...sigh'

I appreciate the info you gave, this is what threads should be about.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

Thank you, Sunny  I really like educational posts in this forum. I've learned so much about chihuahuas since I joined Chihuahua-People and researched about them. I love to share what I learned, although I do not like my information getting skewed.


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## Gracie'smom (Jan 7, 2006)

I appreciated this thread, myself. It was something I had always been curious about. Very informative, and I'm glad things didn't get out of hand!!


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

i like that you gave real info not just an opinion bc it helps get the point across about standard and what-not  just things get blown out of hand and people pick one part of a response and thinks thats the persons full opinion.


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

:thumbleft: :study: :sign7: :laughing5:


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## LuvmySkippy (Oct 11, 2005)

I'm not sure in which way your "information" was "skewed." Perhaps threads of this type ( deerhead vs apple, weight, other breed characteristics etc) should be in the breeding forum, IMHO. I'm happy to read that everyone loves deerheads, and some even own them. 

So whoever said something about drama--ain't none here. I was expressing an opinion--like every other poster.


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

No matter what, people will see what they want... they will dissect certain things and pick apart information to turn it into something that it was never meant to be.


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

:thumbleft::notworthy:


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

This topic has nothing to do with the breeder's section. The "information" is basic genetics and research on the history of the chihuahua, as well as a trip over to the AKC website. 

I did not take your post to be an opinion... it read more as a misreading of information. No one talked as if they thought that deerheads should not be born. Not once did anyone say anything even close to that.


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

I said Drama...Yup that is what it was...
This doesn't need to be in the breeding section, cuz "we're not breeders"! This is chi-chat and this is where we can discuss things like this. Read the title of the thread again  It did not say this versus that  
See...
LOL...my point exactly


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

SunnyFLMum said:


> I said Drama...Yup that is what it was...
> This doesn't need to be in the breeding section, cuz "we're not breeders"! This is chi-chat and this is where we can discuss things like this. Read the title of the thread again  It did not say this versus that


 Agreed


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

:thumbleft::thumbleft::thumbleft:


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## LuvmySkippy (Oct 11, 2005)

Wow--so much intolerance in one thread. Enjoy yourselves!


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

:sign4: 
LOL


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## ~Jessie~ (Oct 30, 2005)

It's nice when smilies can say it all! lol


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

I have always wanted to use that one....LOL


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

LuvmySkippy said:


> Wow--so much intolerance in one thread. Enjoy yourselves!


What is the point? I believe me and Jessie were the ones that answered the original question we BOTH said that ALL dogs should have homes and were NOT saying one was better then the other.. So why the need to act this way? It's not our faults you did not read the post properly.


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## Tucker-N-Jasper (Aug 6, 2005)

hestersu said:


> It's remarks like this one that can give a person the feeling that their dog shouldn't have been born. I can see where the poster got her opinion. All of the implications in this thread have been deerheads are some how inferior and since they are not breed standard, they don't belong. This whole forum is laced with these kinds of comments from various members. On the one hand, someone says "oh your puppy is sooooo cute" (and its a deerhead) and then in another post, the very same poster will critize a deerhead as being sub-standard and "not giving anything to the breed". Kind of hard to figure out sometimes. Just think about it from the reader's perspective. It comes off as someone is looking down their nose at another person's beloved pet. I don't think that is what anyone really means. I believe we all love our dogs (or whatevers) as much as the next person. We care for them deeply and want only the best for them. I challenge anyone on here to prove me wrong.
> 
> Reading some posts on this forum, you get the impression that only specific people have "good or near perfection" dogs and the rest of us should be ashamed for buying what we bought from who we bought since we obviously don't care about the breed. I'm sure I will be on ignore now from some people since they have blatantly stated in other posts (not on this particular thread) that they ignore posts from various members because they bought their dog from "those kind of breeders" and obviously don't care. That's a pretty hurtful comment. It denigrates the person and their dog.
> 
> ...


I was going to stay out of this one but I can't... Hestersu, I agree 100% but its like butting your head against a wall.


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## Tucker-N-Jasper (Aug 6, 2005)

LuvmySkippy said:


> I'm not sure in which way your "information" was "skewed." Perhaps threads of this type ( deerhead vs apple, weight, other breed characteristics etc) should be in the breeding forum, IMHO. I'm happy to read that everyone loves deerheads, and some even own them.
> 
> So whoever said something about drama--ain't none here. I was expressing an opinion--like every other poster.


Ah but if your opinion is not the same then you are skewing and creating drama.. don't you get it? (sarcasm here)

I'm wondering why the same 5 or so people need to make "educational" threads basically on the same topic.... the conversation is always directed back to who should and shouldn't breed. We get it already. A discussion on deer vs apple could very well have remained on the visible/phyiscal differences without the "should/shouldn't be bred" No one asked that!


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

Wow you're really rude, I take it you have something personal against certain members on here. I said drama indeed because their was drama being created. As you are doing yourself, oh but I'm sorry I take it your excluded?
Stick to the original question I asked, let it go, breathe, it will be ok...


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

I don't know how you can explain why the two look different if it does not go back to the breeders. Ok the deer head is just a dog that does not meet the AKC standard. So please explain your points to why they are two different looking dogs and why it is that way and if one of these questions come up I will be sure to use that explanation so no one gets offend. Please use real facts.


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

They just want to create negativity and tension...Just let it go..it's not worth it


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## T'Molly's Mom (Oct 3, 2005)

I have avoided this thread but feel I need to "defend" my purebred, AKC registered, 4.5 pound, black and tan, DEERHEAD. Both of her parents were appleheads and both were light colored. She is definitely a "throwback'.

Horror of horrors - - - I breed her. There is always a waiting list for her puppies. She throws a majority of appleheads and they are generally the lighter colored. She seldom reproduces her own "defects". 

You will ask WHY breed her - - in one simple statement: She has the best temperament, gentle ways, smart beyond belief. healthy and in general a good looking Chihuahua, all the things we should be breeding for. The standards change because one judge prefers a certain quality in the breed. Everyone rushes out to breed to please the judge. In 10 years a different set of judges will have different preference and then there go the show breeders - - breeding for that set of judges.

We (for the most part) buy for pet quality. I myself want a pet that is a pleasure to have around. One that is emotionally stable, healthy, "normal looking" to breed standards, and above all LOVED.

All of this is MHO and I will stick to it.

Mimi and the Herd


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

this thread wasnt applehead vs deerhead though...she was just wondering how the same breed could look so different and yet still be purebred. its not one type versus another. IMO like i have said before i like both but i dont think deer heads should be bred as it is no tthe standard chihuahua, if you want to breed go ahead its your choice. 

and brenda i think thast rude of you to say the same 5 people or whatever bc as you can clearly see this started out nicely, then someone tried to say we didnt think deerheads should be born....come on no one would say that its just ridiculous.....


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

T'Molly's Mom said:


> I have avoided this thread but feel I need to "defend" my purebred, AKC registered, 4.5 pound, black and tan, DEERHEAD. Both of her parents were appleheads and both were light colored. She is definitely a "throwback'.
> 
> Horror of horrors - - - I breed her. There is always a waiting list for her puppies. She throws a majority of appleheads and they are generally the lighter colored. She seldom reproduces her own "defects".
> 
> ...


While I don't 100% agree with the breeding you do it's your choice. To me you said all the right things she is a throw back you know she is, you admit she is and you know her background history and she throws the majority of apple heads. You have waiting list etc.You are not breeding 20 females a year. I have nothing against dog breeders you guys are acting like OMG they are so against it. I have never said a negative thing unless someone comes on here asking questions about breeding knows nothing about the back ground and they are registered CKC which IMO is a joke for BREEDING purposes NOT pets.


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## SunnyFLMum (Apr 21, 2005)

And off it went on a tangent with people saying Well I need to say something cuz I can't be quiet anymore...

Well there you go, you said it...do you feel better now? My gosh grow up people!


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## Gypsy (Feb 13, 2006)

Wow this got a little out of hand. For my two cents I have one applehead (Cosette) and one deerhead (Deedlit). I love them both more than the world. :love5:

The deerhead is kind of interesting to me because for years I'd heard called "deer-type" chihuahuas which meant longer legged and finer boned but only in the past few years heard of deer-head. I think alot of chis classed as deerhead actually have appleheads with longer snouts or just smaller heads. Deedlit does have a slope from her head to nose and no L-Shape at all but she's still obviously discernable as a chihuahua. The chis have changed in looks some over the years, I have chihuahua periodicals of my mom's from the 80's where the champions pictures look different from the ones of today, specifically smaller heads and a little longer in leg but overall there has been the distinctive look of the chihuahua with the rounded applehead whether smaller or more extreme. I know I wouldn't want that to change so I do think breeders need to be breeding to the standard, and still puppies are going to pop up with more of the "deerhead" from those litters but it does upset me when I see places like Texas Teacups purposely breeding out of the standard and telling people it's better. 

I don't think anyone implied that deerheads are inferior, I love all chihuahuas deerhead or apple and think they are all beautiful.


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## sevdev (May 1, 2006)

Dawn likes Bananas, but offends Grapes sometimes...


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## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I read up until page 7 then could go no further. I understand all opinions but I do totally agree that there is an air of 1 type is better than another around here & has been and probably no I'm sure there always will be. Maybe that's not what anyone was trying to imply but it feels that way to some of us. There is no such thing as reality only peception. I get offended when I here this dog should have never been bred Sorry but I do. It would be like someone saying 1 of my kids is somehow deffective  My chis are my other kids :angel10: 

Maybe some of you think that we who have become offended are somehow out of line but we feel hurt and that is our right just as it is yours to continue to speak your mind. Please do not put us down for not accepting your words with a smile


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## Gracie'smom (Jan 7, 2006)

I hate seeing these threads that start out as simple questions getting turned into such an argument! Surely it's okay for everyone to have an opinion?
I personally don't agree that deerheads shouldn't be bred...a lot of people like them, and as long as responsible breeders are doing the breeding, I don't think it's a problem. But I'm not offended that other's here feel differently. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Surely everyone could simply agree to disagree, and leave it at that.


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## Gypsy (Feb 13, 2006)

I hope I'm not one of them that everyone thinks acts like appleheads are better than deer because I do not think that.  I love all chihuahuas and always have. My first chi was more of a deerhead and Deedlit has a deerhead so to think that I don't love them is beyond me. I agree that everyone has a right to express their opinion, this is a public forum. I never intend to hurt anyone's feelings with my posts though and if I ever have I'm sorry. 

I've had hurtful comments from people before (not on here, in person) about how big Deedlit is and that she can't be a chi, she must be a mini-pin but I haven't ever had anyone insult her on here and have never gotten the impression that anyone on chi-people was putting down chis that aren't to the standard. I think everyone here is generally friendly and love all chis not just breed standard chis even if things sometimes get out of hand.


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

i LOVE all chis too! and i never said i didnt. i just feel differently about breeding...


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## Krista (Dec 29, 2005)

I love all chihuahuas :love5:


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## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I was trying to diplomatically explain how I & some others feel I don't see how that is arguementative.I want others to understand my feelings not piss them off


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## Clek1430 (Mar 7, 2006)

Alisha I completely understand how some get offend but the ones that are offend in this post only, please answer the original question then so we can see the other point of how this came to be. No one has done that yet. I really would like to know the answer if mine was not correct.


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## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I don't know the answer  I think it's true there was a time when the deerhead was more coveted now it's diff. It's kind of like chubby used to be in vogue for people it meant they had money now it seems skinny is coveted  

Threads don't always go the way we want them we cannot force them back on track or delete them when them aren't turning into what we want . People have a right to speak their minds as long as that doesn't include name calling or abuse


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## Tucker-N-Jasper (Aug 6, 2005)

*Tiffany* said:


> and brenda i think thast rude of you to say the same 5 people or whatever bc as you can clearly see this started out nicely, then someone tried to say we didnt think deerheads should be born....come on no one would say that its just ridiculous.....


Yep, and your guys posts about spam and omgosh and all that isn't rude? As soon as someone (not msyelf) posted that they were becoming offended by the remarks and tones the same few people started ganging up on her posts and yes the remarks were very rude.

Then you all claim stick to the topic.. or drama drama.. sorry but it wasn't created by us. There just comes a time when some one has to stop and say wait.. I don't agree, that doesn't make it drama and it certainly doesn't make it rude. Rude is the responses that come from someone not thinking like you all. So, if my post was rude, perhaps it was just "truth hurts" ... Whatever.. I'm sick of the "growup" posts too, Again, if someone isn't agreeing with you all there is a huge backfire of posts and then "growup" 

Too bad, I don't always agree, others don't always agree, ridiculing those posts do not make you grown up. I very much felt it was valid for the first desenter to post that she was being offended. It was coming across that way to me too. Just because you all have deer heads doesn't mean you weren't belittling them.


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## *Tiffany* (Sep 27, 2005)

just a question how was i in any way rude?


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## Alisha (Mar 11, 2005)

I deleted my last comment only because I'm a mod :thumbleft: . I'm closing this thread because I see nothing but anger coming from it including my own anger  I don't think we can change how we feel on this any of us. I also don't think we on either side of this issue can ever understand the others point of view.


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