# Papers



## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

My breeder was supposed to mail Tonka's papers for me to fill out and she has just started ignoring me. I went online and I can't register him on my own. I have already told her I will take her to court. Because I either want my papers or Tonka might as well have been free. If it had happened to you how did you get there papers? 


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## L2druid (Dec 28, 2009)

Aww, that sounds like an annoying situation! Was there a contract that said that papers were included?


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

All 3 of mine, from different breeders came with their AKC paperwork along with their contract, medical records and such.

Never had a breeder send paperwork later.

I would guess that they never registered the litter. Otherwise, they would have had the return registration paperwork at pick up.


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## intent2smile (Dec 4, 2011)

jesuschick said:


> All 3 of mine, from different breeders came with their AKC paperwork along with their contract, medical records and such.
> 
> Never had a breeder send paperwork later.
> 
> I would guess that they never registered the litter. Otherwise, they would have had the return registration paperwork at pick up.


I totally agree! We didn't even know that we were going to bring Jaxx home the day we did and they got his paperwork ready before we left.

I have heard too many stories of this happening.



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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

Unfortunately this is all too common. A breeder breeds a dog that isn't AKC registered OR is AKC registered but only has limited registration, not full registration. If a dog that only has limited registration is bred, it's litter cannot be registered. It's a sad situation for all. The new puppy owners get duped and the breeders make money without having to put in the work to make sure that everything is done the right way. 

In all likelihood, his litter was probably never registered. If it was, she would have had the papers at the time you picked him up. I'm sorry.

I have never gotten a dog when the breeder didn't have the papers ready for exactly this reason. I don't know how much you can do, unfortunately.


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

pupluv168 said:


> Unfortunately this is all too common. A breeder breeds a dog that isn't AKC registered OR is AKC registered but only has limited registration, not full registration. If a dog that only has limited registration is bred, it's litter cannot be registered. It's a sad situation for all. The new puppy owners get duped and the breeders make money without having to put in the work to make sure that everything is done the right way.
> 
> In all likelihood, his litter was probably never registered. If it was, she would have had the papers at the time you picked him up. I'm sorry.
> 
> I have never gotten a dog when the breeder didn't have the papers ready for exactly this reason. I don't know how much you can do, unfortunately.


True.

It is sad. A lot of people come here and will share that they "could have gotten papers but they did not because it did not matter to them" or they "did not get papers because they did not want to pay more for the dog to come with them". 

Since I had no plans to breed or show, it technically was not necessary for me either but I wanted to know that I got what I paid for. NONE of my dogs cost more to have AKC registration. It is not expensive to register a litter ($25 + $2/puppy). 

I have both. 2 have Full Registration (NEITHER should) and one with Limited Registration.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

She finally got in touch with me and she had to send in the moms pedigree for some reason? And I'll go get the papers soon. I mean I know her number address and when I found out about the puppies she said they are registered so if she doesn't get me my papers I'll be pissed because I want to possibly show him and stud him out after he gets old enough and has his health check. Plus having papers on him is just easier. No one can take him or say that he's theirs and I paid full price for him I want the papers haha. 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

L2druid said:


> Aww, that sounds like an annoying situation! Was there a contract that said that papers were included?


She had told me they did via text and when I paid and picked him up she sent me home with the moms pedigree and dads papers but I've been waiting 2 months for his. She finally contacted me and said they were coming. 


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## susan davis (Mar 25, 2011)

I am too, waiting for the litter registration, and Bonnie is 11 months. The breeder told me that I'd get the registration after she was spayed. Well she was spayed at 7 months! Irritating.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

susan davis said:


> I am too, waiting for the litter registration, and Bonnie is 11 months. The breeder told me that I'd get the registration after she was spayed. Well she was spayed at 7 months! Irritating.


See I told her I was going to take her to court. I went off on my breeder. I was pissed. 


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

MoeTonka said:


> She finally got in touch with me and she had to send in the moms pedigree for some reason? And I'll go get the papers soon.


She gave you the dam's pedigree and if there was an issue with that, she could not have registered the litter.

So, she is basically letting you know (admitting) that she did not register the litter.

Likely hoping that no one asked so she would not have to do the paperwork and pay.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

jesuschick said:


> She gave you the dam's pedigree and if there was an issue with that, she could not have registered the litter.
> 
> So, she is basically letting you know (admitting) that she did not register the litter.
> 
> Likely hoping that no one asked so she would not have to do the paperwork and pay.


Well she is having too now. Because I went off on her and threatened to take her to court. She was just being lazy and not wanting to do it. Which is not okay at all. But she is doing it now. 


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## Lola's mom 2013 (Aug 25, 2010)

She should have had the paperwork when you got the puppy. Forget about court you would pay out ten fold and it would not be worth it.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

Lola's mom 2013 said:


> She should have had the paperwork when you got the puppy. Forget about court you would pay out ten fold and it would not be worth it.


I have the dads papers and the moms pedigree so they are both registered. 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

She had stopped accepting my calls or returning my text so I had to find her on Facebook. 


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

How old is Tonka? Litters must be registered within six months of birth. He isn't six months yet, right?

Do you know if both dam and sure have FULL AKC registration? They could be only limited. 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

pupluv168 said:


> How old is Tonka? Litters must be registered within six months of birth. He isn't six months yet, right?
> 
> Do you know if both dam and sure have FULL AKC registration? They could be only limited.
> 
> ...


The mom was limited the dad is full she said it was taking a while because she didn't realize the mom was limited so she had to change it. She registered the litter now and is sending me the papers to fill out. I have the dads papers and the moms pedigree but in order to get the full registration on the mom she had to get a five year pedigree while she only had a three year so hopefully all is good and well I'll receive papers. And he's only 3 months. 


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

MoeTonka said:


> The mom was limited the dad is full she said it was taking a while because she didn't realize the mom was limited so she had to change it. She registered the litter now and is sending me the papers to fill out. I have the dads papers and the moms pedigree but in order to get the full registration on the mom she had to get a five year pedigree while she only had a three year so hopefully all is good and well I'll receive papers. And he's only 3 months.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Did she breed the dam herself? Only the litter owner can change limited registration to full registration, no the owner. So unless she bred the dam's litter, she can't do that. And unless dam had full registration prior to being bred, I don't think your Tonka's litter can be registered. 

Sorry, I'm just trying to get a realistic view of the situation. 

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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

pupluv168 said:


> Did she breed the dam herself? Only the litter owner can change limited registration to full registration, no the owner. So unless she bred the dam's litter, she can't do that. And unless dam had full registration prior to being bred, I don't think your Tonka's litter can be registered.
> 
> Sorry, I'm just trying to get a realistic view of the situation.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I really don't know anything about when they got her fully registered but yes he is the moms owner and the litter owner. All I know is she either owes me money or the papers. 


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

Did you sign a written contract and get copies of the papers (not the pedigree the actual full registration papers for both parents)? If not, I really don't think there is anything you can do. She sounds like a shady breeder, for sure. Out of curiously, how much approximately did you pay for Tonka?


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

Both the dad and mom are her dogs. 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

pupluv168 said:


> Did you sign a written contract and get copies of the papers? If not, I really don't think there is anything you can do. She sounds like a shady breeder, for sure.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I have his mom and dads papers. And his moms pedigree but I can't get his papers. The breeder has to get them. So I'm stuck until she gets them. 


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## Jayda (Jun 15, 2012)

There is also a charge after getting the papers to transfer the registration to you as a new owner. It is either $20 for just the transfer or $39 with three years of pedigree. I have not transferred Prince and Lady's papers to me. I just like that I have the papers. Hope your situation works out. Hard lesson for sure.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

Jayda said:


> There is also a charge after getting the papers to transfer the registration to you as a new owner. It is either $20 for just the transfer or $39 with three years of pedigree. I have not transferred Prince and Lady's papers to me. I just like that I have the papers. Hope your situation works out. Hard lesson for sure.


That's what she was saying. If I ever do get another chi I'm for sure going to a different breeder. Even if I have to travel to get a good breeder. I'm not doing this shady **** anymore. I do love my Tonka and wouldn't trade him for anything. It would just be nice to have his papers. 


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## L2druid (Dec 28, 2009)

I asked if you signed a contract because if you haven't than legally, there is nothing you can do if she doesn't give you any papers. Which sucks.


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## Lola's mom 2013 (Aug 25, 2010)

MoeTonka said:


> I have the dads papers and the moms pedigree so they are both registered.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


She probably never registered the litter or u would think she would just give you the paperwork. Problem is court fees run in the thousands. My brother got a puppy from a supposed reputable breeder they dropped the dig off sick it led to close to $4000 in medical bills that the breeder would not pay for he looked into taking him to court the costs would have outweighed Ny money he would have gotten.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

L2druid said:


> I asked if you signed a contract because if you haven't than legally, there is nothing you can do if she doesn't give you any papers. Which sucks.


It does suck. And I didn't. But I have her verbal and written agreement to have papers which will stand up in court ( I'm in school right now for law). I just don't want to waste my money in court. But I scared her a little when I said it and she finally replied and said once again she has them and will send them and once again I have her written word. I hope she finally either comes clean an says there's no papers or gets her crap together and sends me the papers. If not i would like at least 100 of my money back. 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

Lola's mom 2013 said:


> She probably never registered the litter or u would think she would just give you the paperwork. Problem is court fees run in the thousands.


She said she registered the litter a couple of hours ago when she finally messaged back. She said she sent the papers my way. So if she's telling the truth ill get them soon. If not lesson learned and I want my money back. 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

View attachment 15546

Here's what she put on Facebook of my Tonka before I got him (I added her on Facebook after I got Tonka I found her on a different website) 


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## Lola's mom 2013 (Aug 25, 2010)

What my brother did to get some of the cost was to say he would put his experience on Facebook and publish an article in a local newspaper where they were from. Anywhere he could put his experience With this breeder he would. This guys puppies start at $4000 so he was not willing to let bad press get out.
She is in Facebook trying to sell her puppies so maybe that might help. Problem is if she never registered the litter there is nothing that can be done. Verbal agreement is only on things under $500 Facebook does not count as a contract


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

Lola's mom 2013 said:


> What my brother did to get some of the cost was to say he would put his experience on Facebook and publish an article in a local newspaper where they were from. Anywhere he could put his experience With this breeder he would. This guys puppies start at $4000 so he was not willing to let bad press get out.


I got Tonka for 350. And that seemed like a lot to me. 4000? Wow. And if she doesn't get my papers to me by the end of the month I will do the same. It's ridiculous how shady people are. 


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

I registered my girls to me the day I brought them home. I wanted them in my name immediately.

I hope your situation turns out well and you get what she is promising because frankly, she is not giving you accurate information.

AKC is very responsive. I have gotten my paperwork right back and with no issue. Not certain what she means by "paying every time". No. 

It is really simple. She registers a litter. She gets back a document for each puppy. That form gets given (or sent, in your case) and then you go online and transfer his registry from her to you. Within a week you get the documents showing your ownership and you are done.

Not certain what all of the back and forth and saying that she has stuff for you to sign is all about.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

jesuschick said:


> I registered my girls to me the day I brought them home. I wanted them in my name immediately.
> 
> I hope your situation turns out well and you get what she is promising because frankly, she is not giving you accurate information.
> 
> ...


I don't know either. I know she had todo something with a pedigree. But idk. 


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

jesuschick said:


> I registered my girls to me the day I brought them home. I wanted them in my name immediately.
> 
> I hope your situation turns out well and you get what she is promising because frankly, she is not giving you accurate information.
> 
> ...


From what I gathered, mom was on limited registration when the pups were born. Breeder said she would get it changed to full and register the litter. Then she would send op the paper so she can register Tonka in her name. Thats the back and forth, I think. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, though. 

OP, I'm in law school too! Where do you go?

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## Lola's mom 2013 (Aug 25, 2010)

MoeTonka said:


> I got Tonka for 350. And that seemed like a lot to me. 4000? Wow. And if she doesn't get my papers to me by the end of the month I will do the same. It's ridiculous how shady people are.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


His dog is a French bulldog they go for alot of money. $350 is not alot that's what I would be concerned about as far as having a registered litter. Chis go for close to and over $1000 around here. Did you visit the breeder and meet the parents.


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

Ash-I was responding to the phone screen shots of "I have mailed in the paperwork in 5 times and each time cost me money" nonsense.

It is going to be interesting how she is going to flip a limited reg dog for a full reg dog.

She sounds flaky. 

Again, I sure hope that this works out for you!


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

jesuschick said:


> Ash-I was responding to the phone screen shots of "I have mailed in the paperwork in 5 times and each time cost me money" nonsense.
> 
> It is going to be interesting how she is going to flip a limited reg dog for a full reg dog.
> 
> ...


Sorry, didn't see that! Very shady business from that breeder, for sure. AKC doesn't charge multiple times for the same registration. I'm sooo glad I was willing to hold out and travel to not end up with this problem. Poor OP


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

pupluv168 said:


> From what I gathered, mom was on limited registration when the pups were born. Breeder said she would get it changed to full and register the litter. Then she would send op the paper so she can register Tonka in her name. Thats the back and forth, I think. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, though.
> 
> OP, I'm in law school too! Where do you go?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I'm just getting my basic criminal justice degree to be a court appointed attorney and hopefully one day I'll have enough money to become a real lawyer. I just go to community college right now. But we are learning about civil court right now so i picked up a few handy tools haha but with a criminal justice degree I can do so much so I might pursue the police field who knows . And yes that's the back and forth. 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

Lola's mom 2013 said:


> His dog is a French bulldog they go for alot of money. $350 is not alot that's what I would be concerned about as far as having a registered litter. Chis go for close to and over $1000 around here. Did you visit the breeder and meet the parents.


Yes I went to her house to pick up Tonka and met both his parents and his sister was still there. I live in Texas so I don't know if that makes any difference but from what I've seen here its been 300-600 anywhere in that range


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## Lola's mom 2013 (Aug 25, 2010)

MoeTonka said:


> Yes I went to her house to pick up Tonka and met both his parents and his sister was still there. I live in Texas so I don't know if that makes any difference but from what I've seen here its been 300-600 anywhere in that range
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


There are not alot of chi breeders around here seems like there are so many breeders of all breeds the more south you go. Well that's good you saw the parents. I hope things work out for you. I am a believer that even if you have papers that does not mean a dog should be used as a breeder does not guarantee good healthy lines. There are so many Chis out there that have papers and barely are a good example of the breed.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

Lola's mom 2013 said:


> Must be usually they are expensive especially since cesarean birth is usually necessary. Well that's good you saw the parents. I hope things work out for you. I am a believer that even if you have papers that does not mean a dog should be used as a breeder does not guarantee good healthy lines. There are so many Chis out there that have papers and barely are a good example of the breed.


I'm gonna get his health check if I choose to stud him out. I agree. You shouldn't breed a dog if they have health issues or anything. 


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## Lola's mom 2013 (Aug 25, 2010)

MoeTonka said:


> I'm gonna get his health check if I choose to stud him out. I agree. You shouldn't breed a dog if they have health issues or anything.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Health check? A clean bill of health does not determine whether a dog should be bred. Not that I mean to start this debate. My dog Lola is very healthy beautiful and small but she should never be bred she is a rescue from a BYB so her lines should not be continued.


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## AussieLass (Mar 1, 2012)

Have you had any experience in actually mating dogs i.e. being there & physically assisting during the process if requ'd. 

What is the motivation of wanting to stud him out? More than likely, the only 'clients' you'll get will be BYB, all reputable breeders have their own studs. This would lead to the possibility of pups being sold into terrible homes, ending up in shelters etc. due to indiscriminate selling to any Tom, Richard, or Harry just to line their pockets. By the sounds of things, your breeder is a BYB herself?

Are you prepared for the personality difference between a stud dog and neutered male pet? ie a lifetime in belly bands, possibly at home but always when out visiting etc.

Unless his roach back completely disappears & his conformation is as close to perfect/standard as it can be, it would be a dreadful thing to breed that on, regardless of how 'healthy' he is.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

Lola's mom 2013 said:


> Health check? A clean bill of health does not determine whether a dog should be bred. Not that I mean to start this debate. My dog Lola is very healthy beautiful and small but she should never be bred she is a rescue from a BYB so her lines should not be continued.


I don't want to get in a debate about it either. 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

AussieLass said:


> Have you had any experience in actually mating dogs i.e. being there & physically assisting during the process if requ'd.
> 
> What is the motivation of wanting to stud him out? More than likely, the only 'clients' you'll get will be BYB, all reputable breeders have their own studs. This would lead to the possibility of pups being sold into terrible homes, ending up in shelters etc. due to indiscriminate selling to any Tom, Richard, or Harry just to line their pockets. By the sounds of things, your breeder is a BYB herself?
> 
> ...


Everyone starts somewhere and I don't think you are in any place to start this debate. No one really is. It's like a political debate no one will win. So just drop it? It's stupid to start this crap. Every breeder started somewhere. They didn't just come out on top. 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

And tonka doesn't have a roach back. He stands normally. No hump in his back. 


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

MoeTonka said:


> Everyone starts somewhere and I don't think you are in any place to start this debate. No one really is. It's like a political debate no one will win. So just drop it? It's stupid to start this crap. Every breeder started somewhere. They didn't just come out on top.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


They all start with a reputable show breeder. This thread is evidence that Tonka does not come from the background that most show dogs- and successful stud dogs- come from. That is the only reason I think this may be relevant. 



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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

If you are really serious about showing and breeding then you will need to be able to assess honestly the quality of the dog in front of you. Tonka is a pet quality Chi. Maybe just enjoy him for what he is and look at getting a potential show puppy from a breeder who is willing to guide you. This is how new breeders learn the ropes. They also listen to the advice of people who have more experience, it is the only way to learn.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

pupluv168 said:


> They all start with a reputable show breeder. This thread is evidence that Tonka does not come from the background that most show dogs- and successful stud dogs- come from. That is the only reason I think this may be relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


He doesn't need a show dog background to become a show dog. 


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## Lola's mom 2013 (Aug 25, 2010)

MoeTonka said:


> Everyone starts somewhere and I don't think you are in any place to start this debate. No one really is. It's like a political debate no one will win. So just drop it? It's stupid to start this crap. Every breeder started somewhere. They didn't just come out on top.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes but they should be doing it to better the breed which means starting out with a good bitch and stud that comes from good lines. Thing is when you start talking about breeding on a website with people who are passionate about the breed you are going to get opinions about it. It's not meant to be insulting we just don't like to see indiscriminate breeding. I think people think they can make a quick buck studding out their dog or having litters in reality breeding is a very expensive endeveor if done correctly. It is sad how poor breeding is destroying breeds especially ones like the chihuahua that are so popular.


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

MoeTonka said:


> He doesn't need a show dog background to become a show dog.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No, but he needs to come from good, proven lines. I don't think that this breeder is responsible enough to have ensured that. 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

Wicked Pixie said:


> If you are really serious about showing and breeding then you will need to be able to assess honestly the quality of the dog in front of you. Tonka is a pet quality Chi. Maybe just enjoy him for what he is and look at getting a potential show puppy from a breeder who is willing to guide you. This is how new breeders learn the ropes. They also listen to the advice of people who have more experience, it is the only way to learn.


Trust me I have listened. And my aunt is a reputable breeder in Louisiana and is going to help me out. The way everyone has changed the topic from papers to scrutinizing me isn't what I thought this forum was for. I'm about done with this. I did not come on here to get scrutinized about wanting to POSSIBLY stud Tonka out. And backgrounds really don't matter to me. Tonka is a smart and fast learner. Who gives a **** if his dad was the best show dog out there? 


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

MoeTonka said:


> Every breeder started somewhere. They didn't just come out on top.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Good breeders often start with a very experienced breeder as a mentor who is willing to help them out in starting their lines. Even if they are not breeding confirmation dogs but have working lines this is often true. Many start out either in the confirmation ring or in some sort of dog sport and build a foundation of sound dogs to start lines. Their first litters are often co-bred with a mentor breeder or they have dogs that have proven themselves to be very sound in body an temperament. Good breeders have a very through understanding of their breed and are often involved with the breed long before they even get their first breeding dog. So while I don't want to debate it with you (and this will be my last post on the subject) I will say many breeders do in fact start "on top" or at least what you seem to consider on top. You can't but a puppy from a pet store or BYB and magically breed out all the bad traits into reliably temperament healthy dogs- you might get lucky and that happens- but just know you would be getting lucky not creating some magic.


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

doginthedesert said:


> You can't but a puppy from a pet store or BYB and magically breed out all the bad traits into reliably temperament healthy dogs- you might get lucky and that happens- but just know you would be getting lucky not creating some magic.


Yes. A dog from this quality breeder is just not going to magically turn into a show dog. Yes, people start somewhere. They start with reputable breeders. 

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## Lola's mom 2013 (Aug 25, 2010)

MoeTonka said:


> He doesn't need a show dog background to become a show dog.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Where did you get that info?


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

doginthedesert said:


> Good breeders often start with a very experienced breeder as a mentor who is willing to help them out in starting their lines. Even if they are not breeding confirmation dogs but have working lines this is often true. Many start out either in the confirmation ring or in some sort of dog sport and build a foundation of sound dogs to start lines. Their first litters are often co-bred with a mentor breeder or they have dogs that have proven themselves to be very sound in body an temperament. Good breeders have a very through understanding of their breed and are often involved with the breed long before they even get their first breeding dog. So while I don't want to debate it with you (and this will be my last post on the subject) I will say many breeders do in fact start "on top" or at least what you seem to consider on top. You can't but a puppy from a pet store or BYB and magically breed out all the bad traits into reliably temperament healthy dogs- you might get lucky and that happens- but just know you would be getting lucky not creating some magic.


I understand what your saying. And I'm glad you didn't scrutinize me. This is the first post where I was able to read and not feel like I'm getting picked at so thank you. And I know Tonka will need to work hard to prove himself in dog shows and that is where I was planning to start. I don't just want to stud him out all of a sudden. I was going to get him in dog shows. 


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

I will say it again. I REALLY hope that she sends you his registration and that he can be registered. If she does not, showing will not be an option. 

The show world and breeding world can be BRUTAL. You will certainly need to brace yourself for that.


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

If you want, you can post some updated pictures of Tonka stacked so members can evaluate him on something more than his background. 


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Do you have companion dog shows in the states? You can show unregistered dogs as it is just for fun.


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

MoeTonka said:


> I understand what your saying. And I'm glad you didn't scrutinize me. This is the first post where I was able to read and not feel like I'm getting picked at so thank you. And I know Tonka will need to work hard to prove himself in dog shows and that is where I was planning to start. I don't just want to stud him out all of a sudden. I was going to get him in dog shows.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It sounds like you might be on the right track. Even if you end up neutering him in the end you can always use him to learn the ropes of showing and see if it something you want to get into. No harm in taking a confirmation class and getting to know some other people who can see him in person and let you know what they think.

Just do me a favor ok :daisy: - keep him away from bitches in heat in the mean time. People on here like me get a little worked up because all the time we see people come on and say they got a "show dog" from a BYB, then they say they decided not to breed them, then an oops litter shows up a month later. You seem smarter than that- and I hope you stick around. Tonka really is a cutie.


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

Wicked Pixie said:


> Do you have companion dog shows in the states? You can show unregistered dogs as it is just for fun.


Sadly they really don't- or at least not with the frequency they have them in the UK. I do know people who take confirmation classes with pet quality puppies just to learn the ropes though. It is often an option- you just have to find a nice trainer who is not totally crazy- as everyone knows I'm sure- there is a lot of crazy in the dog show world.


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## jesuschick (Dec 5, 2010)

Good idea, Ashley. 

A young lady posted pics the other day and asked for honest show feedback by those here who have experience. Ear by ear, stop, snout, angulation (albeit all from pictures not a physical eval) he whole dog, part by part (which, of course, is how it will be done).

She received it non-defensively and was grateful even if some of it was hard to hear. We all think our babies are beautiful (and they are) and perfect (oh, they surely are not).

I am the first to point out each of my girl's "flaws" right along with sharing how much I love them. Sometimes even find them cuter because of the things that have kept them from showing or breeding!

Hope's holistic Vet has shown dogs (not Chis) for 40 years VERY successfully and chastised me the other day when I said, "Oh, would you look at that roached back and tucked tail" and she said, "HEY! This is not the show world and so you need not worry about being her show judge.". Point taken. I see them as lovely but I am objective enough to see them as they are.


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## AussieLass (Mar 1, 2012)

MoeTonka said:


> Everyone starts somewhere and I don't think you are in any place to start this debate.


LMAO I spent every single w/end in a show ring from the time I was 14yo, exhibiting supreme champion stock. I'm now 53yo & retired, you do the math. 

You post on a public forum EVERYONE is entitled to give their 2 cents worth, regardless of whether they have experience or not girlie.

You can make wild assertions about people you have no knowledge of until the cows come home, it will not change the facts that have been stated to you - I asked you simple, straight forward questions, which you chose to ignore.


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## AussieLass (Mar 1, 2012)

Re my reference to the 'roach back', I apologise - I had your dog confused with the one in this thread: http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chihuahua-showing-conformation/86754-show-future.html

You may wish to peruse that thread, there's invaluable advice & links in there.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

doginthedesert said:


> It sounds like you might be on the right track. Even if you end up neutering him in the end you can always use him to learn the ropes of showing and see if it something you want to get into. No harm in taking a confirmation class and getting to know some other people who can see him in person and let you know what they think.
> 
> Just do me a favor ok :daisy: - keep him away from bitches in heat in the mean time. People on here like me get a little worked up because all the time we see people come on and say they got a "show dog" from a BYB, then they say they decided not to breed them, then an oops litter shows up a month later. You seem smarter than that- and I hope you stick around. Tonka really is a cutie.


I probably will wind up getting him neutered. I know he isn't perfect or anything. He's only 3 months old. So I've been just bouncing ideas in my head. That's why I got so pissed when people were scrutinizing me. Everyone's allowed to think about stuff you know? 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

AussieLass said:


> LMAO I spent every single w/end in a show ring from the time I was 14yo, exhibiting supreme champion stock. I'm now 53yo & retired, you do the math.
> 
> You post on a public forum EVERYONE is entitled to give their 2 cents worth, regardless of whether they have experience or not girlie.
> 
> You can make wild assertions about people you have no knowledge of until the cows come home, it will not change the facts that have been stated to you - I asked you simple, straight forward questions, which you chose to ignore.


And I applaud you. But I didn't ask about breeding. I asked about papers. Not breeding or shows. I was just saying I can't do anything without his papers. 


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

MoeTonka said:


> I probably will wind up getting him neutered. I know he isn't perfect or anything. He's only 3 months old. So I've been just bouncing ideas in my head. That's why I got so pissed when people were scrutinizing me. Everyone's allowed to think about stuff you know?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


We all get that. We just want the best for you and Tonka. You must understand that many of the members here are passionate about the breed. We really have the best intentions at heart, I promise. We just want to help people make informed decisions. 


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## MiniGrace (Oct 31, 2011)

jesuschick said:


> The show world and breeding world can be BRUTAL. You will certainly need to brace yourself for that.


Truer words were never spoken. I think to be successful at showing and breeding, your love for the breed must be more important to you than the love of your dog as an individual. It is a higher calling than my sentimentality could handle but I have nothing but admiration, respect and gratitude for those who have the money, the integrity and the courage to become a truly good breeder.

There are many organized activities that can be enjoyed with a dog who isn't a good enough example of the breed to be shown in the conformation ring. I am not saying that the pup in question should not be show because I lack the knowledge to make that determination, only pointing out that conformation shows aren't the only sport available to share with your dog.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

pupluv168 said:


> We all get that. We just want the best for you and Tonka. You must understand that many of the members here are passionate about the breed. We really have the best intentions at heart, I promise. We just want to help people make informed decisions.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


An I don't mind when people HELP me. But the way everyone was gettin on me about it was ridiculous and I have wanted a chi since I was young so getting Tonka means everything to me papers or not. I just think some people should have stayed out of the whole topic and kept their mouths shut. I can't stand when people scrutinize instead of giving advice. If I wanted that I would go to a hypocritical church not post on a forum of dog lovers. 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

jesuschick said:


> I will say it again. I REALLY hope that she sends you his registration and that he can be registered. If she does not, showing will not be an option.
> 
> The show world and breeding world can be BRUTAL. You will certainly need to brace yourself for that.


Thank you for remembering what this thread was started for . That's all I was trying to say. Was I have no options to do anything without his papers. Not that I wanted to show or stud him out. Just that those would not be options. You know? 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

AussieLass said:


> Re my reference to the 'roach back', I apologise - I had your dog confused with the one in this thread: http://www.chihuahua-people.com/chihuahua-showing-conformation/86754-show-future.html
> 
> You may wish to peruse that thread, there's invaluable advice & links in there.


From what I read on there y'all treated her the same way as me. We aske one question and y'all started jumping down our throats. This obviously isn't the amazing chi forum I thought it was because you are a 52 year old *******. I hope you get that checked one day. 


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## doginthedesert (Oct 10, 2011)

MoeTonka said:


> From what I read on there y'all treated her the same way as me. We aske one question and y'all started jumping down our throats. This obviously isn't the amazing chi forum I thought it was because you are a 52 year old *******. I hope you get that checked one day.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You should read the last page of that thread. I think some people misunderstood her and once they figured it out she really got the helpful critique she was looking for.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

doginthedesert said:


> You should read the last page of that thread. I think some people misunderstood her and once they figured it out she really got the helpful critique she was looking for.


An that's what I mean though. When did I ask for advice? I asked for advice on getting PAPERS. But it's okay. Everyone already showed me especially aussielas or whatever that y'all are not welcoming of new chi owners at all. I never asked about breedin or showing. I made a statement that caused everyone to flip **** on me. I wanted to know how to get papers from a shady breeder. And I got a few people being nice. Then pupluv and Aussie and others started to chew me out. It made me feel not welcome at all. Think about the way y'all jump on people before y'all post again giving "advice" and make sure you completely understand them and aren't just makin accusations. Because y'all have caused me to seriously want to leave. Good thing there's a few nice people on here and I kinda wan to stay for them. But I would greatly appreciate it everyone who posted on here dare not ever post on another topic about Tonka. I don't want to hear anything else about me or him. I understand people love the breed and want to protect the breed. But all this jumping down my throat is not okay. 


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

I didn't chew you out and I don't like being accused of doing so. I am never anything but helpful to new forum members. Am I honest? Yes. But I am in no way rude or unwelcoming. Sorry you feel that way, though. I really was trying to help, no matter what you think of me. 


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## MChis (Oct 13, 2009)

Just want to throw a little something out there that some breeders do withhold AKC paperwork for pets until proof of spay/neuter has been given. Once proof of spay/neuter has been given, then the breeder will give LIMITED AKC registration.... It's the best way to ensure a registered dog doesn't end up in the wrong hands.

I am in NO WAY giving excuses to the "breeder" in question...they sounds shady for certain. No arguing that.

I also can vouch for the show/breeding world being brutal. So far I've met some wonderful people & not had any huge issues. But I didn't jump right in there w/the first Chihuahua I got w/o learning about the standard before hand. I had a lot of help, including some folks I met here, when looking for my first show prospect. And I'm still learning 2 years later...although my "eye" has gotten incredible amounts better than it was when I started. 

To have a stud...you need to have something other breeders SEEK. Pedigree is just as important as the dog itself if not more so. My first show bitch came from a pet breeder. BUT (and thats a big but)....she obtains her breeding stock (that she didn't breed herself) from show breeders. The only time I'd get a dog from a random person who didn't show & whos dogs didn't have history of some CH's, FOR SHOW...is if I already knew what I was looking for. Even then...not likely to happen. LOL 

Anyway, that is my 2cents fwiw.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

MoeTonka said:


> I'm gonna get his health check if I choose to stud him out. I agree. You shouldn't breed a dog if they have health issues or anything.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


The post that started it all. I never said I was going to people. 


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## intent2smile (Dec 4, 2011)

You may have not been meaning to ask for advice but people here have a lot of opinions that has been formed from many years of seeing too many dogs in shelters or mistreated. So most times if someone mentions studding a dog or having a litter of puppies those opinions are going to come out. This happens at most dog forums where people care for dogs no matter what breed you are looking at. Most people believe that dogs should not be breed unless it is doing it in order to improve the breed.
No one meant to hurt your opinion. They were just trying to give you the wealth of information that they have at their disposal. You do not have to agree with it but they have a right to say it just like you have a right to disagree.
I hope you get your papers but honestly it seems like a shady breeder to me. I have been looking for another chi for a while now here in Texas and most of the chis I have found with registered AKC breeders are between $1000 to $3000. I am searching all of the big cities though in Texas because I do not mind driving 8 hours in order to get a pup that I know has been taken care of and I will have their papers.
I have heard of a few cases where someone took the breeder to court for not receiving the papers and 1 of 2 things happened. It ended up costing money and they got nothing in return or they were offered a refund but they also had to give the dog back. 
I am sorry that you took some of the opinions personally but truly I know from reading them and spending time on these forums that no one meant to upset you in any way. They were just giving their opinions.


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

pupluv168 said:


> I didn't chew you out and I don't like being accused of doing so. I am never anything but helpful to new forum members. Am I honest? Yes. But I am in no way rude or unwelcoming. Sorry you feel that way, though. I really was trying to help, no matter what you think of me.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


And I'm sorry. But at this point I feel like anyone who posted chewed me out after Lola and Aussie. Just the way people went about trying to inform me on something I never asked about. 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

intent2smile said:


> You may have not been meaning to ask for advice but people here have a lot of opinions that has been formed from many years of seeing too many dogs in shelters or mistreated. So most times if someone mentions studding a dog or having a litter of puppies those opinions are going to come out. This happens at most dog forums where people care for dogs no matter what breed you are looking at. Most people believe that dogs should not be breed unless it is doing it in order to improve the breed.
> No one meant to hurt your opinion. They were just trying to give you the wealth of information that they have at their disposal. You do not have to agree with it but they have a right to say it just like you have a right to disagree.
> I hope you get your papers but honestly it seems like a shady breeder to me. I have been looking for another chi for a while now here in Texas and most of the chis I have found with registered AKC breeders are between $1000 to $3000. I am searching all of the big cities though in Texas because I do not mind driving 8 hours in order to get a pup that I know has been taken care of and I will have their papers.
> I have heard of a few cases where someone took the breeder to court for not receiving the papers and 1 of 2 things happened. It ended up costing money and they got nothing in return or they were offered a refund but they also had to give the dog back.
> I am sorry that you took some of the opinions personally but truly I know from reading them and spending time on these forums that no one meant to upset you in any way. They were just giving their opinions.


I understand wanting to protect dogs. They can't keep themselves out of bad homes its up to the people. But I have gotten advice on here before and it has never been written so rudely or made me feel so bad. I just think before anyone posts anything they should think about "do I know what they are wanting advice on" "do I know that what I am saying is going to be taken correctly" "ten other people have already said it maybe I should just but out" and Aussielass was just being a (removed) . No help at all just rude things to say. 


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## MoeTonka (Jan 17, 2013)

Here's my thing. I don't know anyone on here and no one knows me. I asked a simple question. I got chewed out whether you think you were being rude or not most of you had posted about breeding and showing after I had already asked for the breeding subject to be dropped. I knew how it would end and wanted it stopped the second it started. It's not that I didn't want your advice it's that most of you said it kind of rudely. I understand that you all stand by each other wouldn't dare stick up for me. So it's cool. 


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## AussieLass (Mar 1, 2012)

MoeTonka said:


> And I applaud you. But I didn't ask about breeding. I asked about papers. Not breeding or shows. I was just saying I can't do anything without his papers.


"_so if she doesn't get me my papers I'll be pissed because *I want to possibly show him and stud him out *after he gets old enough and has his health check._ " = Post #7

Quite right, you didn't ASK, you TOLD us you may possibly breed a BYB dog thereby risking offspring ending up in rescues, or possibly being put down. You expect a bunch of purists who DON'T breed for financial reward to take that on the chin?

With the years, hopefully will come wisdom, the ability to rationalise and understand helpful advice without becoming a self-proclaimed 'victim' and unwarranted name-calling.


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## michele (Jan 12, 2009)

Can i just remind you all of the RULES.
1. While we all have opinions, please keep your posts polite and friendly. Be respectful of others opinions even if you don’t agree - We will not tolerate spamming or flaming. Under no circumstance should you ever post personal information about THE BREEDER.I have deleted the posts you put up with the breeders information and name.


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## Lola's mom 2013 (Aug 25, 2010)

MoeTonka said:


> She finally got in touch with me and she had to send in the moms pedigree for some reason? And I'll go get the papers soon. I mean I know her number address and when I found out about the puppies she said they are registered so if she doesn't get me my papers I'll be pissed because I want to possibly show him and stud him out after he gets old enough and has his health check. Plus having papers on him is just easier. No one can take him or say that he's theirs and I paid full price for him I want the papers haha.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This is silly this is where it started it was your third post in this thread. That sounds to me like someone who intends to breed that is why I started giving my opinion on breeding.


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