# Trends In The Show Ring



## bella2013 (Aug 10, 2012)

My family has been involved in the past with showing German Shepherds. I know that the GSD has been involved with some controversy among the breed itself due to breeding practices that, over the years, bred a weak structured dog that had higher instances of hip dysplasia. What I'm trying to get at, is that I've been looking at some show pictures of winning Chihuahua's and honestly? I hate the show bred chi's head structure. There were more than a few that reminded me more of Pugs than Chihuahuas. This is just my own personal opinion and I am still relatively new to the breed, but this is my opinion. After I read more and researched the German Shepherd's problems with their show bred build a few years ago, I swore that I would never support the breeding down of weakening dogs. I was just wondering if there was any sort of studies being done or has been done in regards to the health of dogs with shorter than average snouts. Also, why is this such a high regard in the show ring? I'd like to get involved in showing Chi's eventually but not if I must sacrifice my dog's longevity in order to achieve a CH title. Sorry for the rambling, just thought I would see how everyone else felt about this as well.


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## OzChi (Oct 26, 2011)

Some unscrupulous breeders do breed for an exaggerated or 'overdone' apple head (tend to be the kind of people who breed the mythical 'Teachp' Chihuahuas also) however these are ususally pet breeders and the dogs would never do well in the show ring. Is this the kind of look you're speaking of? 

I wouldn't call my Winnie's head Pug-like (he's my avatar pic) and he's pretty close to standard in the head (let's not talk about his body, it's a bit off hence why he's now living with me not with his breeder), they have to be really short in the muzzle and jowly to start looking puggy and that type of Chi would not do well in the show ring. Winnie's muzzle is short but he has a good bite, eats well and will demolish a chicken wing when given the chance. 

A head to the current Chi breed standard does not have any ill effects to the dog, only when people go to the excess and breed for that cartoon like appearance does it result in problems and from what i've seen that is not what's placing in the show ring (either here in Australia where Winnie's sire and grandsire are grand champions and have heads like his or on the Chihuahua Club of America website).


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## AussieLass (Mar 1, 2012)

If you really want to get into what showies, professional breeders and dog clubs themselves have done to dogs, locate the BBC Documentary "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" and watch that, you'll be disgusted - have a box of tissues handy if you're easily upset & brought to tears.

And it is these very imbiciles who have the audacity to sling off at people who breed the odd unpapered litter from their pack in their own backyard from time to time. Pfft, that's the biggest joke of all, these people holding themselves up to be something special, breeding only to improve the breed yada yada yada.

Look at the www pics of certain breeds 100 years ago and the same breed today - and THEN tell me all these people charging $2k for a pup have been breeding to improve the breed- BS they have, they been breeding to line their own damn pockets & try run anyone else, who even dares to produce a litter, out of town. I am sure there are SOME exceptions to the rule and those who genuinely believe they're doing the right thing, but they're no different in reality because they still follow the trend of "deformed" dogs so they can sell their pups & succeed in the showring, IMO.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

AussieLass said:


> If you really want to get into what showies, professional breeders and dog clubs themselves have done to dogs, locate the BBC Documentary "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" and watch that, you'll be disgusted - have a box of tissues handy if you're easily upset & brought to tears.
> 
> And it is these very imbiciles who have the audacity to sling off at people who breed the odd unpapered litter from their pack in their own backyard from time to time. Pfft, that's the biggest joke of all, these people holding themselves up to be something special, breeding only to improve the breed yada yada yada.
> 
> Look at the www pics of certain breeds 100 years ago and the same breed today - and THEN tell me all these people charging $2k for a pup have been breeding to improve the breed- BS they have, they been breeding to line their own damn pockets & try run anyone else, who even dares to produce a litter, out of town. I am sure there are SOME exceptions to the rule and those who genuinely believe they're doing the right thing, but they're no different in reality because they still follow the trend of "deformed" dogs so they can sell their pups & succeed in the showring, IMO.


I am watching it now... 3 second in and I'm already getting emotional !!


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

For anyone who wants to see it =) 

Part One - 



Part Two -


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## tinkerwolf (Aug 5, 2012)

I saw this when it was broadcast, it was very scary. I immediately dug out Ted's family tree and checked for in-breeding. There wasn't any as I do think I picked a good breeder but I hadn't specifically checked for it at the time.

For me it's the obsession with "teacup" that I find upsetting, although I guess that's more making money from people who want a cute pet to carry around rather than breed standards (although I find the UK one of 2 to 6lbs with 2 to 4lbs being ideal ridiculous). I had to really hunt to find a breeder who wasn't trying to breed tiny tiny chis :-/


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

tinkerwolf said:


> I saw this when it was broadcast, it was very scary. I immediately dug out Ted's family tree and checked for in-breeding. There wasn't any as I do think I picked a good breeder but I hadn't specifically checked for it at the time.
> 
> For me it's the obsession with "teacup" that I find upsetting, although I guess that's more making money from people who want a cute pet to carry around rather than breed standards (although I find the UK one of 2 to 6lbs with 2 to 4lbs being ideal ridiculous). I had to really hunt to find a breeder who wasn't trying to breed tiny tiny chis :-/


I even feel that 'breed standard' for AKC and KC doesn't always look out for the health of the dog - when one woman said the general belief with the KC is that discussing the health ruins the breed, it sent shivers down my spine.

I've been doing some online scouring also and there is a thought that even the breeding out deerheads in favour of an applehead isn't an improvement of the breed so its a wonder they are discounted from breed standard...

I was delighted that both my chi's (Zeus being 1/4 Jack russell) have a stronger frame than alot of the chi's that I've seen one woman even asked me if Isis was a full chihuahua as she's a little bigger than alot of the runts you see around these days... When I said, yes she's full pedigree KC registered and charting within breed standard she just said 'oh okay she's not minature though is she?' ....huh?


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## Mydaddysjag (Feb 8, 2012)

I come from a family who bred and showed shepherds too, from back in the 80s and have had chihuahuas for about the last 15 or 16 years. I can say with all honesty, I don't feel the "show" chihuahua is anywhere near the extremeties they took shepherds too. You don't find a pet shepherd who has such severe angulation that it has displasia by the time its four, with broken down hocks and early onset arthritis from its "correct" conformation. Being honest, you will not see the american line show shepherds anywhere outside of the show ring. The chihuahua "show head"is something that is ocasionally taken to the extreme, but honestly, its usually not, and many people with pet quality dogs have "apple head" dogs. Its what's correct by breed standard, and always has been, its not just a new fad in the last 15 or 20 years. As far as health concerns, the average chi with an applehead does not have any more health problems than a "deerheaded" chihuahua. Any dog with a small mouth usually needs proper dental care to prevent dental problems. Now the extremely short muzzled dogs do sometimes have a harder time in extreme heat, but like I said, honestly those super extreme pug like heads aren't the "norm" in the show ring. There's also hydro, but I've seen that result
From two dogs who had rather plain heads, not extreme at all, nearly deer headed. Imo the show chihuahua does not have any more health risks than the pet quality chihuahua. The real risks and problems I've seen are more related to a lot of pet quality dogs who end up with luxating patellas, bad hearts can be a problem, again not show related, and honestly I see a lot of people who's dogs are either grossely overweight from overfeeding and lack of exercize, or on the other opposite a lot of backyard breeders who keep their dogs way too skinny just so they can say I have an xx pound dog. Id rather see the dog with enough weight on it for its frame to have proper muscle and flesh on it than see it half starved to make a weight that it honestly shouldn't be. I have a dog here who was supposed to be 5lbs, at a healthy weight, she's around 6.5. The shepherd show ring and the chihuahua show ring are honestly like two completely different worlds, id defiantly suggest checking out the chihuahuas at your next show


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## Mydaddysjag (Feb 8, 2012)

I forgot to add the other big problem is people breeding for tiny dogs (under 3 lbs) those dogs have trouble maintaining their blood sugar, often getting hypoglocemic, and they almost always need c sections as the dam is just too small to be bred. You usually don't see dogs under 3lbs in the ring, those are usually backyard breeders who are trying to sell dogs marketing them as "teacup" with no concern for the dogs health. Honestly in the ring, id say the average is 4-5lbs, imo long coats tend to run a little bigger in my area


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

Mydaddysjag said:


> I come from a family who bred and showed shepherds too, from back in the 80s and have had chihuahuas for about the last 15 or 16 years. I can say with all honesty, I don't feel the "show" chihuahua is anywhere near the extremeties they took shepherds too. You don't find a pet shepherd who has such severe angulation that it has displasia by the time its four, with broken down hocks and early onset arthritis from its "correct" conformation. Being honest, you will not see the american line show shepherds anywhere outside of the show ring. The chihuahua "show head"is something that is ocasionally taken to the extreme, but honestly, its usually not, and many people with pet quality dogs have "apple head" dogs. Its what's correct by breed standard, and always has been, its not just a new fad in the last 15 or 20 years. As far as health concerns, the average chi with an applehead does not have any more health problems than a "deerheaded" chihuahua. Any dog with a small mouth usually needs proper dental care to prevent dental problems. Now the extremely short muzzled dogs do sometimes have a harder time in extreme heat, but like I said, honestly those super extreme pug like heads aren't the "norm" in the show ring. There's also hydro, but I've seen that result
> From two dogs who had rather plain heads, not extreme at all, nearly deer headed. Imo the show chihuahua does not have any more health risks than the pet quality chihuahua. The real risks and problems I've seen are more related to a lot of pet quality dogs who end up with luxating patellas, bad hearts can be a problem, again not show related, and honestly I see a lot of people who's dogs are either grossely overweight from overfeeding and lack of exercize, or on the other opposite a lot of backyard breeders who keep their dogs way too skinny just so they can say I have an xx pound dog. Id rather see the dog with enough weight on it for its frame to have proper muscle and flesh on it than see it half starved to make a weight that it honestly shouldn't be. I have a dog here who was supposed to be 5lbs, at a healthy weight, she's around 6.5. The shepherd show ring and the chihuahua show ring are honestly like two completely different worlds, id defiantly suggest checking out the chihuahuas at your next show


I don't think chihuahuas have a huge problem in terms of showing etc but I do feel that more needs to be done overall to encourage the HEALTH and strength of the puppies over the size and certain attributes that may not be beneficial to the puppies health - which is something I believe the kennel club need to really reform within their policy.

That show has caused me to lose interest in showing all together and lose alot of respect for the KC.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

Mydaddysjag said:


> I forgot to add the other big problem is people breeding for tiny dogs (under 3 lbs) those dogs have trouble maintaining their blood sugar, often getting hypoglocemic, and they almost always need c sections as the dam is just too small to be bred. You usually don't see dogs under 3lbs in the ring, those are usually backyard breeders who are trying to sell dogs marketing them as "teacup" with no concern for the dogs health. Honestly in the ring, id say the average is 4-5lbs, imo long coats tend to run a little bigger in my area


Thats good to know  I'ts incredible how they still look sooo tiny next to their owners though isn't it? x


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

tinkerwolf said:


> I saw this when it was broadcast, it was very scary. I immediately dug out Ted's family tree and checked for in-breeding. There wasn't any as I do think I picked a good breeder but I hadn't specifically checked for it at the time.
> 
> For me it's the obsession with "teacup" that I find upsetting, although I guess that's more making money from people who want a cute pet to carry around rather than breed standards (although I find the UK one of 2 to 6lbs with 2 to 4lbs being ideal ridiculous). I had to really hunt to find a breeder who wasn't trying to breed tiny tiny chis :-/


I want to do the same. Just waiting for her breeder to send me over the certificates.

Its funny when I first saw Isis advertised I had this sense of urgency to get her like I needed to protect her then when I brought her home something inside me felt as though I'd rescued her...Even my BF said randomly to me ''You know you've given her a much better life than she had before'' and his mother who is an experienced dog owner said a similar thing to him too which is odd as I never spoke to her about Isis beforehand.

She came from a breeder who sold her to another breeder/shower but because she wasn't shaping up to be suitable for showing/breeding she sent her back. My vet said she'd infact be perfect for breeding because of her size and healthy form (obviously going on first impression and she would have to pass tests at a certain age etc) She also had kennel cough which I didn't realise until a couple of days later when she was hacking and spluttering.

Makes me wonder what conditions she was held in and what she was going to be in for. Just simple things like wiping her down after she's rolled about in some random substance in the field to me is small indicators of care that hasn't been taken....I don't know maybe I'm just one of those neurotic over babying owners..


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## tinkerwolf (Aug 5, 2012)

CheyMUA said:


> one woman even asked me if Isis was a full chihuahua as she's a little bigger than alot of the runts you see around these days... When I said, yes she's full pedigree KC registered and charting within breed standard she just said 'oh okay she's not minature though is she?' ....huh?


:-? How small do they want dogs to be? Ted's just over the 6lb UK breed standard (which I am more than happy about) but he's still a very small dog 

When people ask what he is though (long haired chis seem to confuse people) I am sometimes economical with the truth because it seems toy dogs get stolen in the UK so I figure why shout about him being a KC reg chi :coolwink:


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

The small size issue reminds me of LS and her rescue dog, Bella. Bella is not even three pounds. She has bad luxating patellas and a bunch of socialization issues. She is extremely frail and, as LS has said several times, she is the product of someone breeding just for size or look. She is adorable, but it is a miracle that she found an experienced rescuer to help rehab and love her. So sad. 

I absolutely do not like the look of those extreme, tiny dogs that "breeders" have created. To me, its all about temperament and health. I wanted a small dog- Toby is 5.5 pounds and I honestly don't think I could handle one much smaller than him. He's fragile enough. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

tinkerwolf said:


> :-? How small do they want dogs to be? Ted's just over the 6lb UK breed standard (which I am more than happy about) but he's still a very small dog
> 
> When people ask what he is though (long haired chis seem to confuse people) I am sometimes economical with the truth because it seems toy dogs get stolen in the UK so I figure why shout about him being a KC reg chi :coolwink:


That's what I thought!! I was just like....:foxes15: They just don't *get* it!!

Isis has room wearing a harness that is xs even on its tightest point she's tiny - but big enough to not be too fragile...

And I remember her breeder saying that she's a good size because breeders/customers are so focused on them being super tiny they forget that they can only breed down the skeletal frame...the organs remain the same size... its no wonder the whole problem with Cavilier King Charles spaniels exists!! I would hate to see a chi or ANY dog go through the same or 
something similar!!!

The whole craziness of people stealing Chi's TERRIFIES me!! I know there have been a few cases of people being attacked and mugged for their dogs and my BF was hounded by a group of youths when he went out with Isis not too long ago which made him realise why I am so overprotective over them.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

pupluv168 said:


> The small size issue reminds me of LS and her rescue dog, Bella. Bella is not even three pounds. She has bad luxating patellas and a bunch of socialization issues. She is extremely frail and, as LS has said several times, she is the product of someone breeding just for size or look. She is adorable, but it is a miracle that she found an experienced rescuer to help rehab and love her. So sad.
> 
> I absolutely do not like the look of those extreme, tiny dogs that "breeders" have created. To me, its all about temperament and health. I wanted a small dog- Toby is 5.5 pounds and I honestly don't think I could handle one much smaller than him. He's fragile enough.
> 
> ...



Bella definitely is VERY lucky LS found her... I think part of the reason I fell in love with both Zeus and Isis so much is that they are small but healthy sized dogs with loving temperaments and I've seen some really tiny chi's that just look frail and sick TBH and over the years as I've matured I put health over being able to hold them in my pocket LOL!! (I started loving/wanting a chihuahua at age 7) .

They of course are still fragile to a degree but not so much that I can't enjoy them and they are happy to run around, play and knock each other about (playfully ) without coming to serious harm.

I was watching TOWIE the other day (uk show) and one of the girls chi's - his name is Elvis is teeny but just seems a bit ill and constantly shaking with nerves I just wanted to reach in and take him


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## tinkerwolf (Aug 5, 2012)

CheyMUA said:


> The whole craziness of people stealing Chi's TERRIFIES me!! I know there have been a few cases of people being attacked and mugged for their dogs and my BF was hounded by a group of youths when he went out with Isis not too long ago which made him realise why I am so overprotective over them.


Me too, not the being attacked bit (although that is scary!) but the thought of someone taking him. I am super careful where I walk him and he is trained not to go out of sight of me when off lead. He was following two CKCs yesterday and someone said "aren't you worried", me "no, watch this" he reached the tree they were about to disappear around and then hurtled back to me. I didn't even need to call him :coolwink:

But it's still a worry, I would never leave him in the car on his own or tie him up outside a shop (I feel sick thinking about it). I've thought about getting a Rottie (never used to like them but have a soft spot for them now) for back up, not that I would want a dog to fight but the sight of them puts most people off  It's either than or another 19 chis ...


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## Mydaddysjag (Feb 8, 2012)

Reading through a few more replies, I wanted to clairify something I posted. While I do feel that a huge health concern is breeders purposely breeding for tiny chihuahuas (under 3 lbs) honestly, I don't feel that is something caused by "show people". To be blunt, its very rare to see a tiny chi in the show ring, its even more rare for judges to actually place them. I would say most show breeders are breeding for dogs in the 4-5lb range. The people who are breeding for tinies are honestly backyard breeders producing pet quality puppies who they can call teacup (no such thing, its just a word they use to make people think its something special). Also, I suggest checking out the chihuahua club of americas code of ethics, imo show breeders of chihuahuas are leaps ahead of other breeds. Now I can agree, the american show line german shepherds have gone to a bad place, but I've only seen the chihuahua improve healthwise with most show breeders cerf and ofa screening their dogs, breeding dogs of healthy sizes, and honestly, most show chihuahuas have decent temperments. I really doubt even the friendliest pets could go to a show with 2000 dogs of all shapes and sizes barking, howling, noise from strange people, lots of hustle and bustle, be lead around a strange ring with a weird texture floor with strangers running up behind you, and finally stand perfectly still on a flimsy table nearly 3 feet in the air while some stranger pokes their fingers in your mouth and grabs your man parts to make sure all is there, meanwhile your not allowed to move and must remain posed. I know, it looks like a peice of cake, but honestly, it takes a good temperment for a dog to actually enjoy showing.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

I come from a health angle. If a 'backyard breeder' wants to breed family pets that are not show quality, it is usually frowned upon. They aren't improving the breed, etc. However, if those people care enough to do health testing on their breeding stock - then so be it! Breed healthy pets for people! 

The Chi Club of America recommends health testing and certification for eyes (CERF), patellas (OFA), and heart. Reputable breeders WILL health test.

When and IF pet breeders get on board with this and want to produce a larger, less fragile chi, with a longer muzzle and less extreme head AND they are willing to health test, then I wouldn't have a problem with that.

I DO have a problem with breeders (show or otherwise) who breed for the tiniest dogs they can with NO regard to health or temperament. Those are the people we should be complaining about and NOT supporting.


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## AussieLass (Mar 1, 2012)

All breeders who breed for shows are the same, regardless of the breed *IMO* - they ALL choose to call "IN-BREEDING" by a different term, that being 'LINE BREEDING' to make what they're doing more respectable - bunkum! 

Isn't it said that every Pug in the world goes back to only a handful of 50 or is it 10, I can't remember. Whatever it is, it's not a diverse gene pool!

For a good quality, healthy pet, give me a backyard bred, non-related mating of 2 purebred dogs any day, thank you very much  I've done my time shelling out enough to put a deposit on a house every time I bought an expensive show/stud dog proposition from "the best breeders in the land". In fact if I'd bought houses instead of show dogs I'd have a decent portfolio now, ah hindsight. 
*
NB:* The "enough to put a deposit on a house every time I bought a show/stud prop" - *I'm referring to the bleedin' Vet bills after buying the thing*, not even thinking about the price of the dog, it's the Vet bills of this "line bred" mutants that are my issue and axe to grind.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

AussieLass said:


> All breeders who breed for shows are the same, regardless of the breed *IMO* - they ALL choose to call "IN-BREEDING" by a different term, that being 'LINE BREEDING' to make what they're doing more respectable - bunkum!
> 
> Isn't it said that every Pug in the world goes back to only a handful of 50 or is it 10, I can't remember. Whatever it is, it's not a diverse gene pool!
> 
> ...


OMG Really?! Thats insane!! Who do you think the responsibility lies with in these cases though? The shows/commitees/clubs/associations or the actual breeders themselves?


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

It's not every pug in the world, it's every pug in ENGLAND. FYI. 

You would have no different breeds, if there had never been any line breeding. The gene pool for chihuahuas is IMMENSE in the United States at least. 

I was just down in New Mexico at a show this past weekend. I went to two different pet stores after we showed and there were two chihuahua rescues placing dogs. The dogs were all bigger (10-15 lbs on average), pretty ugly (teeth sticking out in severe underbite, flat heads, beady small eyes, floppy ears, mangled legs from improper feeding or being housed on wire or even just poor genetics). So, I asked the guy, "I really want a cute little chihuahua, one with nice eyes and good teeth and not over 6 lbs. Do you have any of those?". He just laughed and said, "No way do we see those in rescue, people keep those when they buy them". So, I asked him why. His response was essentially that they got what they paid for...a dog with a sweet expression that fit in their lap without any grotesque deviations of bite, that was a sweet companion...chihuahuas are one of those breeds where all puppies seem cute, and all puppies seem tiny, but they grow up and aren't what people thought they were buying. It doesn't justify people dumping them, but the reality is, he said no one should be breeding if they are not breeding to as closely produce that beautiful, in-standard chihuahua that will also be healthy. 

THOSE DOGS DO NOT EXIST without proper linebreeding. Linebreeding is the attempted selection for different traits, and is very different from inbreeding. The canine gene pool and the way canine genetics work is very different from human genetics. Not only does linebreeding lock in certain outward physical appearance traits, but it also starts to breed OUT things like luxating patellas, heart murmurs, liver disease, etc. 

It is true that some gene pools are too small. Pug people in England should be importing some new dogs to have a larger gene pool. And I believe many are.

Keep in mind that videos such as Pedigree Dogs Exposed, are sponsored and put together by radical rescue groups that want nothing better than to end ALL breeding of any type (and then we would have NO DOGS left in just a few short years!).


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

Brodysmom said:


> I come from a health angle. If a 'backyard breeder' wants to breed family pets that are not show quality, it is usually frowned upon. They aren't improving the breed, etc. However, if those people care enough to do health testing on their breeding stock - then so be it! Breed healthy pets for people!
> 
> The Chi Club of America recommends health testing and certification for eyes (CERF), patellas (OFA), and heart. Reputable breeders WILL health test.
> 
> ...


If I could "like" this I would!


My mom recently bought two puppies from a breeder who was breeding "teacups". No health testing, selling them at 6 weeks for maximum profit, the whole deal. One of the pups has hydrocephalus and has to be PTS. The breeder was convinced that the puppy had injured himself (she had no idea what hydro even was!). She gave my mom another puppy who doesn't even look like a chihuahua, and is continuing to breed the parents of the puppy that died. 

I would rather shell out $ for a puppy from a breeder who health tests than one that doesn't any day. I could have easily purchased a puppy from a breeder who had tested the parents for what I paid. I love them of course, but I now have no idea if their parents were free from knee issues and I will just have to hope we have no future problems.


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## bella2013 (Aug 10, 2012)

I have to agree that the problems that shepherds are seeing now in the show ring conformation are much more severe than the problems with very small heads on the chi's. But, one dog that I seen that particularly reminded me of a pug was a white male with a CH title within the last five years. So, obviously dogs like that are winning SOMEWHERE and that's all it takes is one dog winning with a pug-like face and getting that CH title and then every breeder will be wanting to do it in order to keep up with show ring fads. They may not be popular in the winner's circle now, but wait 5-10 years down the road and soon every CH chi in the USA will look like a pug in the face. That's just my own personal opinion. I couldn't stand to watch anymore than 30 minutes of that video about pedigree dogs because the attitudes of the people on there just infuriated me. I won't even touch on linebreeding vs in breeding. I'm also involved with the horse world and we hear the excuses all too often, but the reality is.....well I'm not going into it for fear of being bashed about what I have to say about it. It's just better for me to keep my mouth shut right now.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I have seen dogs that do not conform to the breed standard win. In the UK, short necked, stuffy Chi's with horribly bulging eyes will win under some judges. These dogs are not what the standard requires though!
The standard actually promotes a less extreme, much more 'natural' type of Chihuahua. The preference for the smallest dogs was actually removed the last time the standard was modified.
MOST breeders breed to (their interpretation of) the standard. It is in their best interest to breed dogs that are sound and healthy as well as successful in the show ring.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

Wicked Pixie said:


> I have seen dogs that do not conform to the breed standard win. In the UK, short necked, stuffy Chi's with horribly bulging eyes will win under some judges. These dogs are not what the standard requires though!
> The standard actually promotes a less extreme, much more 'natural' type of Chihuahua. The preference for the smallest dogs was actually removed the last time the standard was modified.
> MOST breeders breed to (their interpretation of) the standard. It is in their best interest to breed dogs that are sound and healthy as well as successful in the show ring.


OMG ME toooo!!! I was looking up show winners in the UK and was shocked to see some of the winners, some overweight funny looking ones too! lol!!


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

bella2013 said:


> So, obviously dogs like that are winning SOMEWHERE and that's all it takes is one dog winning with a pug-like face and getting that CH title and then every breeder will be wanting to do it in order to keep up with show ring fads. They may not be popular in the winner's circle now, but wait 5-10 years down the road and soon every CH chi in the USA will look like a pug in the face.


They say you can finish almost anything if you drag it around the ring long enough. 

But you are wrong, they will not all look like pugs in 5-10 years. You clearly have no idea how difficult it is to even maintain a proper length of muzzle in breeding much less make it short and pug like and keep a correct bite. I have seen 1 or 2 chis total that remind me of a pug in the ring and that's it. And keep in mind I am in the ring almost every weekend, go to national specialties (you would never see one there), and am active in local breed clubs as well as national and international groups of breeders discussing the breed and showing their breeding stock to the group.

A chihuahua with a flattened head, small eye, long muzzle and bad teeth in no way is babylike, endearing and sweet like a chihuahua should be nor does it have a saucy expression. 

If you don't care that your chihuahua looks like a chihuahua should, by all means, go rescue, but certainly don't buy from a BYB not health testing and just breeding to basically make money. That makes no sense to me.

The attitude of those in the UK also does vary greatly from the US as well as other countries. But, there are good breeders everywhere.


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## Mydaddysjag (Feb 8, 2012)

If you look at show photos from the last 30 years, you'll see that chihuahuas haven't changed much, if at all in type. Even co.paring to the orig breed standard photos, that's still generally what you see at shows.

I do hate to see people bashing show breeders when in reality, the problems that are being talked about generally are bred for by pet and backyard breeders, not show breeders. Of course there are always pet breeders who tell unknowing buyers that a dog is show quality, and a buyer thinks its show quality because it has an applehead. That just frustrates me. In reality, it is very hard to get a show prospect from a show breeder. It can take years of jumping through hoops before people will even consider selling you a show prospect, most on coownership or strict contract (for example, the dog cannot be bred unless it passes its ofa, cerf, etc and attains its championship, the dog can be returned to the breeder if you ever can't keep it, etc). Its not as simple as replying to an ad and having the money to buy the dog like most byb. The nice thing is having a great support system for advice, and making great friends along the way. I do think a lot of people snub their noses at those who show when they don't show and haven't even watched chihuahuas in the ring. There is a HUGE difference in the chihuahua vs. Shepherd show ring. Honestly, I'm not sure how close your calling inbreeding, but none of my showdogs are linebred within the first 5 generations.


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## ~LS~ (Oct 29, 2011)

I have seen the documentary mentioned earlier(several times), and I must say we can not put all registered 
breeders into one group. There will always be rotten apples, you can't judge the whole tree by a few bad apples.



I think as pet owners who love & care for the Chihuahua breed, we must encourage
responsible breeding and/or adoption. How can we do that? Simple, adopt a Chi from a
reputable rescue organization or only support reputable breeders who health test their
breeding stock, who breed for health and temperament first and foremost, who breed as a
hobby instead of an only income, and preferably those who are involved in activities such
as showing, obedience, agility, etc.(because this shows higher commitment imo). Puppy
mills and back yard breeders should not be encouraged, for a very simple reason...they do
not have the breed's best interest at heart. They breed unregistered pets without knowing
or caring about the health & temperament history. If bybs had the breed's best interest
at heart they would follow the necessary steps to ensure they breed properly, and you can
not breed properly without taking into consideration health and temperament. You can not
simply breed because you need to pay some bills, because you want your kids to experience
"life", or because you are too cheap to sterilize your dogs or because you think your
dog's puppies would be cute and know a few people that'll buy them. Or in puppy mills'
case, breed simply for profit. It is irresponsible. A perfect breeder imo breeds in order
to either better the breed or preserve the breed, a responsible breeder will barely break
even after a litter, because breeding properly will not make you rich. How does that
saying go again? "Do you want to know how to make a small fortune breeding dogs? You got
to start with a large fortune!"...or something along those lines.


Are there extremists that put looks first and foremost? Sure. Which is why even if the
dogs are registered, you must still do your research on the particular breeder, make sure
you are buying a healthy(ask for proof of health testing), well tempered pup(make sure
the breeder properly socialized the pup, ask for specifics), that comes with a guarantee, 
and don't be afraid to ask questions, especially regarding the breeder's motives for breeding 
and/or their ways of breeding. 

There will always be money hungry people in this world, even within the registered breeders 
there will always be those who breed for looks without considering how it will affect health first, 
there will always be bad seeds, even within the good. So don't let the papers dictate everything, 
do your own research, inspect the premises, ask questions, interact with the breeder's dogs, 
check out the parents, etc. There ARE good breeders out there, it just takes a little more work 
than to find a byb or puppy mill pup(which is sad), but it is definitely worth it.

Or you can always save a life by adopting. 


Just to add...what I wrote above is all my opinion only of course, which comes from being involved 
in rescue. I can easily say that most, if not ALL of our rescues were bred by bybs or puppy mills. Which 
says a lot. Because a responsible breeder will gladly take back one of their pups if your life 
situation changed...which bybs and puppy mills don't do. Perhaps there is one in a billion byb that 
would, but I have yet to see the day. Same goes for spaying and neutering, bybs and puppy mills 
don't, while responsible breeders make you sign a non-breeding contract or spay/neuter the pups 
before they leave for new homes. Which is extremely important in order to protect the breed.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

Mydaddysjag said:


> If you look at show photos from the last 30 years, you'll see that chihuahuas haven't changed much, if at all in type. Even co.paring to the orig breed standard photos, that's still generally what you see at shows.
> 
> I do hate to see people bashing show breeders when in reality, the problems that are being talked about generally are bred for by pet and backyard breeders, not show breeders. Of course there are always pet breeders who tell unknowing buyers that a dog is show quality, and a buyer thinks its show quality because it has an applehead. That just frustrates me. In reality, it is very hard to get a show prospect from a show breeder. It can take years of jumping through hoops before people will even consider selling you a show prospect, most on coownership or strict contract (for example, the dog cannot be bred unless it passes its ofa, cerf, etc and attains its championship, the dog can be returned to the breeder if you ever can't keep it, etc). Its not as simple as replying to an ad and having the money to buy the dog like most byb. The nice thing is having a great support system for advice, and making great friends along the way. I do think a lot of people snub their noses at those who show when they don't show and haven't even watched chihuahuas in the ring. There is a HUGE difference in the chihuahua vs. Shepherd show ring. Honestly, I'm not sure how close your calling inbreeding, but none of my showdogs are linebred within the first 5 generations.


TBH I think that you can't necessarily say that because the breeders aren't show breeders they are breeding genetic problems into the breed. In the show I posted they often don't have to even look at the genetic background in terms of diseases - and no one seems to really be bothered when they have a CH title. Not all ...but alot...


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

~LS~ said:


> I have seen the documentary mentioned earlier(several times), and I must say we can not put all registered
> breeders into one group. There will always be rotten apples, you can't judge the whole tree by a few bad apples.
> 
> 
> ...


Hear hear!!


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## ~LS~ (Oct 29, 2011)

pupluv168 said:


> The small size issue reminds me of LS and her rescue dog, Bella. Bella is not even three pounds. She has bad luxating patellas and a bunch of socialization issues. She is extremely frail and, as LS has said several times, she is the product of someone breeding just for size or look. She is adorable, but it is a miracle that she found an experienced rescuer to help rehab and love her. So sad.
> 
> I absolutely do not like the look of those extreme, tiny dogs that "breeders" have created. To me, its all about temperament and health. I wanted a small dog- Toby is 5.5 pounds and I honestly don't think I could handle one much smaller than him. He's fragile enough.


Bella is the perfect example of an irresponsible byb that breeds tinies for 
more cash with zero regard for health. She is the first tiny dog to end up
being rescued by us, yet her story is the same...bred irresponsibly, got ill, 
got to be an inconvenience and was about to end up at the pound. It makes
me sick. What we have to also remember is to not only point the finger at
irresponsible breeders but also take a look at ourselves. Are we supporting
them? Are we contributing to the problem by not committing to our pets
100%? By letting our pets breed, by giving up on our pets due to allergies, 
or moving, or boyfriends. First and foremost let's be responsible for our own
actions. Let's support reputable, responsible breeders, let's adopt, lets spay &
neuter our pets and let's remember that a dog is a more or less 15 year
commitment, they can not be simply disposed because our life situation has
changed.


As long as we, the people, are buying these sick puppies off the internet,
we are providing the demand, and contributing to the rise of bybs and puppy
mills. Which is nothing to be proud of.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

~LS~ said:


> Bella is the perfect example of an irresponsible byb that breeds tinies for
> more cash with zero regard for health. She is the first tiny dog to end up
> being rescued by us, yet her story is the same...bred irresponsibly, got ill,
> got to be an inconvenience and was about to end up at the pound. It makes
> ...


LS I'm no expert and I hope I don't come across as just bashing show breeders as I'm more inquisitive than accusing - however I am intrigued as I see very often KC/AKC registered breeders justifying their high prices by saying that they have show winners in their lineage. The issue I have with the whole show thing is that shows are won based mostly on appearance to a standard that is set by what a group of people have decided is most desirable for instance up until recently KC breed standard accepted molera and AKC still accepts it. Surely this is something that should be encouraged out of the breed? 

Its things like this that make me have less respect for the KC/AKC putting chihuahuas aside if there are breeds that are celebrated within the KC/AKC and the major shows who's desirable attributes are detrimental to the puppy's health and may not show until years after breeding age why do we still assume that KC/AKC registered puppies are superior than non registered ones by non-show/AKC/KC breeders who can very well be healthy but are frowned upon. Hope that made sense :/ lolx


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

CheyMUA said:


> LS I'm no expert and I hope I don't come across as just bashing show breeders as I'm more inquisitive than accusing - however I am intrigued as I see very often KC/AKC registered breeders justifying their high prices by saying that they have show winners in their lineage. The issue I have with the whole show thing is that shows are won based mostly on appearance to a standard that is set by what a group of people have decided is most desirable for instance up until recently KC breed standard accepted molera and AKC still accepts it. Surely this is something that should be encouraged out of the breed?
> 
> Its things like this that make me have less respect for the KC/AKC putting chihuahuas aside if there are breeds that are celebrated within the KC/AKC and the major shows who's desirable attributes are detrimental to the puppy's health and may not show until years after breeding age why do we still assume that KC/AKC registered puppies are superior than non registered ones by non-show/AKC/KC breeders who can very well be healthy but are frowned upon. Hope that made sense :/ lolx


Showing isn't necessarily based just on appearance. Judges check their teeth and movement as well. I would think that a badly bred dog will not have good movement. Also, a dog that is shown has to have a pretty good temperament, considering that they are touched by random people and are exposed to all sorts of things.

The reality is that very few people with unregistered dogs will health test them. Being AKC registered is not a guarantee of health, but a show breeder would be more likely to health test. I have yet to come across a breeder who health tests their dogs but doesn't show.


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## ~LS~ (Oct 29, 2011)

Cheyenne, I'm not a show expert either...I don't show, I have rescues.
But from my understanding, like Missy said, showing is not only about appearance,
although appearance is a great sign of good health since good health comes from within, 
healthy outside most times equals healthy insides. Temperament is extremely important 
in showing, you must have a sound, happy go lucky Chi, you can not have your dog come 
with its ears down and tail between its legs, or growling, biting, etc. Breeders who show, 
put a lot of time into their dogs, into training their dogs, etc, this is what I like, it 
shows deeper commitment imo. There is nothing wrong with breeding beautiful dogs, as 
long as it's not at the expense of health. Which yes some breeders do, but definitely 
not all. Nothing is ever black or white.


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## CheyMUA (Jul 29, 2012)

~LS~ said:


> Cheyenne, I'm not a show expert either...I don't show, I have rescues.
> But from my understanding, like Missy said, showing is not only about appearance,
> although appearance is a great sign of good health since good health comes from within,
> healthy outside most times equals healthy insides. Temperament is extremely important
> ...


Very true....Thanks for explaining things to me . I love the fact that everyone on CP is willing to take a little bit of time to educate and present a different perspective without just dismissing my incessant questions  

It just goes to show how much goes into reputable responsible breeding.


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## bella2013 (Aug 10, 2012)

flippedstars said:


> They say you can finish almost anything if you drag it around the ring long enough.
> 
> But you are wrong, they will not all look like pugs in 5-10 years. You clearly have no idea how difficult it is to even maintain a proper length of muzzle in breeding much less make it short and pug like and keep a correct bite. I have seen 1 or 2 chis total that remind me of a pug in the ring and that's it. And keep in mind I am in the ring almost every weekend, go to national specialties (you would never see one there), and am active in local breed clubs as well as national and international groups of breeders discussing the breed and showing their breeding stock to the group.
> 
> ...


You are right. I don't know how difficult it is blah blah blah. What I do know is what I have seen and it was a CH titled male dog that literally had so short of a muzzle that he resembled a pug. I've been involved with dogs with my family enough that I am smart enough to know that when dogs of the improper breed type start winning in the show ring, every dog in the show ring will be bred to look like that dog because let's face it. People wanna win and want the fame and glamour and glitz that comes with it and will do almost anything to achieve it. I'm not saying all show breeders are like that, as not all are. There are bad apples in every single breed, but it seems like the byb and some show breeders are the worst of the worst IMO. I'm personally against breeding a dog unless it conforms to the ORIGINAL breed standard. That's why I asked for people's opinions on my new girl, Bella. She's already set up to be fixed in a couple of weeks, because she doesn't fit the breed standard to a precise T. I'm done ranting and I'm not bashing anyone here that does breed for show, but I just wish that all these fads in the show ring in all breeds would stop.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Just because you have seen ONE dog that finished that looks like that, doesn't mean that they all will or that it will be come the next 'fad'. I will raise you photos of hundreds of champion dogs that look nothing like pugs. Maybe even thousands of photos, over the years.

Quite frankly, the changes to the chihuahua breed standard have been almost entirely to allow for a healthier, more sound animal. And I am all for changes like that. Roached toplines, straight stifles, etc. used to be normal and allowed but you know what both of those things contribute to patellar luxation. The standard, as long as the chihuahua has been a recognized breed, has called for a well rounded, apple domed skull. The interpretation has changed slightly, but it also has taken years and years and years of careful breeding to breed what is essentially a rounded, apple domed skull. A long muzzle looks out of place on that shape of head, but I don't know anyone trying to get it as short as a pug.

I understand that not all people have an appreciation for purebred dogs or any place for them in their lives; so I say again, GO RESCUE! But some people do enjoy purebred dogs, and owning a dog that was carefully bred with temperament in mind. 


Also FWIW, the MOLERA is actually a naturally protective feature on a chihuahua. If they hit their head, it allows for some swelling without brain damage. Small dogs are quite likely to bonk their head from time to time. Without a molera, the pressure has no where to go and brain damage or death can occur. That is something Europe did not take into consideration when they eliminated the molera. 

There is a member who isn't too active here anymore, that has a beautiful female chi named Emma. She had some head trauma, and without a molera to accomodate for the swelling that occured, she would have died. Instead, she recovered fully with no after effects. 

Its very easy to judge or have strong opinions when you don't work intimately with a breed or breeding. Very easy to say "blah blah blah" as if you understand, but the reality is, there is SO MUCH MORE to breeding and breed standards than someone that is a pet owner can understand. It is not even information publicly available, much of it is learned through time spent and conversations with those who have been in the breed for decades, so no, you can't read it in "Chihuahuas for Dummies".

There will always be fads, but the truth is, they are far less extreme than many people would believe. There are breeds prone to extremeness but honestly, the chihuahua is not one of them 99% of the time.


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

bella2013 said:


> People wanna win and want the fame and glamour and glitz that comes with it and will do almost anything to achieve it. I'm not saying all show breeders are like that, as not all are. There are bad apples in every single breed, but it seems like the byb and some show breeders are the worst of the worst IMO..


Just my opinion, but I really see no fame or glamour in winning in a dog show ring. It seems incredibly expensive and time consuming. I used to show horses and I can tell you it wasn't about "winning" or the glamour. It was insanely expensive and all you ever win are useless ribbons and maybe some points that get you a "special" award at the end of the season. Big deal. It is done for love of the sport, not for recognition, unless you become an Olympian- in which case it costs a fortune to train for and attend the Olympics. 

So maybe I am just sounding naive here, but I would think the majority of people who show dogs do it as a hobby, because they love it. Someone trying to make money would most likely not be showing their dog. Maybe there are a few who actually do just care about the recognition, but I would assume those people are the minority.


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## OzChi (Oct 26, 2011)

> TBH I think that you can't necessarily say that because the breeders aren't show breeders they are breeding genetic problems into the breed. In the show I posted they often don't have to even look at the genetic background in terms of diseases - and no one seems to really be bothered when they have a CH title. Not all ...but alot...


You can't say that 100% but because the show standard requires soundness of confirmation (at least in the Chi standard) the show people are more likely to health test so that they don't breed unsound dogs that they won't be able to show (because they are lucky to get one show prospect out of a litter anyway so why lower the odds by not doing everything you can to ensure your chances of getting that perfect dog). 

Also so much time and money goes into getting a dog to its Championship the breeder obviously wants it to live a long and healthy life and to produce offspring that are also sound and will go on to win in the show ring so by screening for health issues they are ensuring the future of their lines.

If you can find a non show breeder that health tests and the results on your puppy and its parents show it to be healthy go ahead and get that puppy. Such breeders are very few and far between though because they aren't breeding for perfect confirmation and ongoing health like a show breeder has to in order to continue in the show ring, they are breeding to make money off puppies they are going to sell and never see again after 6 or so weeks.


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## AussieLass (Mar 1, 2012)

Sorry, but based on my experience over the decades, I place ZERO faith in health tests on parents or pups and would go so far as to say are lot have been pure, unadulterated BS, especially in the area of Hip Disp!

The world is a very, very crooked place, not least in the breeding & selling of expensive animals of ANY SPECIES.


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## bella2013 (Aug 10, 2012)

I can appreciate everyone's knowledge of the chi breed. I'm not saying that a pug like face is the norm in the show ring. But, I am saying that it's obviously happened and it has won before. All it takes is one big name individual that likes that look and breeds that look into their dogs and then before you know it there are a ton of pug like Chi's running around. As long as everyone keeps breeding true to the standard, that won't happen. But, it is a possibility so long as humans are the judge of things. What one judge likes in a dog doesn't automatically mean it will win under another judge. Also, the molera (soft spot)....swelling of the brain does produce some sort of brain damage. At least in humans. My sons were born at 24 weeks gestational age and Jayden had severe swelling of the brain before his soft spot closed. He sustained some sort of brain damage, as does normally everyone that has brain swelling (hydrocephalus). I don't know if the same holds true for dogs, as I haven't dealt with it personally like I have with my son. I just know that when an injury happens to the human brain and it swells even if the soft spot is still open, the brain can only go so far. Either way, whether a dog has a molera or not, if it hits it's head hard enough and brain swells it's going to sustain some brain damage if the dog's head and brain works relatively the same as a human's. So, I don't see a problem in breeding for a molera or not breeding for one. It would make no difference to me, as I haven't heard any significant evidence that tells it's beneficial to have one or not have one.


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## AussieLass (Mar 1, 2012)

Nah, man hasn't modified the Chi to suit himself at all, not in the least, lmao:

Chihuahua pictures by Pietoro - Photobucket

As for the German Shep's - I find their current shape and gait disgusting, and consider all who played a part in it to be a sick bstd!


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## Mydaddysjag (Feb 8, 2012)

Not sure what those pictures are supposed to show, I see quite a few that look very similar to dogs we see in the ring today. Think of some of the most influential and top producing sires in fairly recent years. At the top of my head for "everyday" names that almost anyone howing a chihuahua knows....bliss hoosier barn burner, which brings dartan grand slam. Then there's dazzler texas slugger, his muzzle is on the short side but by no means looks like a pug, was the cca top producing sire for 2011al


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## bella2013 (Aug 10, 2012)

Wow. Those are some compelling pictures. Looks like man has deviated away from the original dogs.... The GSD's that are in the show ring today are horrible examples of working dogs. They couldn't do the job at hand (herding and working) if they really tried. Looks like my girl Bella would have passed as a breedable dog in the early 1900's but after man has changed the way chi's are "supposed" to look she's only pet quality. That's a thing that has divided the GSD people, because working dogs in America are seen as inferior dogs to the show lines. Those GSD show dogs are usually broke down in their hips and loins by the time they're 6 anyway. Chi's may not be as severe and extreme as other breeds, but you're still breeding for an undesirable trait just for the show ring because it's what some idiots have deemed as preferred.


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

..................


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## OzChi (Oct 26, 2011)

The 1939 and 1950 Chi's in those pics look exactly like Chi's today. And apart from the ones obviously in show poses who says any of the rest are being held up to be close to what was the breed standard of the day or even purebred?


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

One of the reasons I like Chihuahuas is that they are very sound when compared to other toy breeds.
Kristine, were you sold Bella as a show/breeding quality dog? It isn't fads or fashion that make her pet quality, she just isn't a very well put together dog. She would have been considered pet quality a hundred years ago too.


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## Mydaddysjag (Feb 8, 2012)

"breeding for an undesirable trait just for the show ring because it's what some idiots have deemed as preferred. "

Wow, thats pretty bold, and imo rude, especially from someone brand new to the breed that just yesterday didnt know the basics of proper conformation such as a correct bite and roach back. 
You just posted friday "So I just got my first Chi last night and I have absolutely no idea even about basic dog conformation" and said " would love it if she were breeding or show quality" but now after you were told that shes pet quality you are trashing those who have show quality dogs. Its nothing about a fad or trend that makes her pet quality. Basic conformation is basic conformation, 100 years ago as well as now. Even if you completely take the head out of the picture, she has pet quality conformation. Honestly, she has a pretty extreme head, its just that her muzzle size in comparison to the rest of her entire head is very large. Her "dome" and head size is very small and dainty, her muzzle just is out of proportion, it looks like it belongs on a much bigger dog, not as dainty as your bella. My show boys muzzle is around that size, but his overall head is much bigger than bellas, so its not out of proportion with his head. I hope that makes sense.

Yes, maybe the muzzles are a little shorter these days, however, luxating patellas are MUCH less than they were in the past, along with roach backs, two things that can be physically crippling to the breed that were popular to the "origional" dogs. Bites werent a bit deal back then either, however now we know that bad bites can also be attributed to overcrowding which causes dental issues. Chihuahuas are known to have teeth issues, and imo dogs with bad bites are much worse when it comes to tooth decay as the teeth arent aligned well and food gets stuck, causing decay. If anything, I think the chihuahua has improved for the better, the changes in structure allow better movement and lower chances of LP. Saying that show breeders of chihuahuas are ruining the breed because 1 in 500 are breeding extreme heads is like saying every person with a tenessee walker sores it and slaps chains on it, every show QH has HYPP, everyone with a pittbull fights it, etc. Kristi on the board has finished several champions, and also has two litters of outstanding puppies. Her dogs are health tested, and taken the best care of. Maybe I only speak for myself, but I cant afford to pay more than most people pay for a couple months on a mortgage for a show dog thats going to fall apart. I do believe health testing does lower the rate of heart disease and LP, and yes, you might get a dog who has health issues out of two parents who tested good, but the chances of getting a puppy with heart, eye, or patella issues out of two parents who tested bad is much, much more likely. Every show breeder I know offers a health guarantee, some are 1 years, some are 2, and some offer a lifetime guarantee. I dont know a single backyard breeder who offers a health guarantee like that. That kind of commitment shows a breeder stands behind their dogs.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

All breeds take time to develop. That is part of what makes chihuahuas a challenging breed to work with...there is SO much deviation from type in chihuahuas...that it will take a long, long time before we see consistency in the ring in the US (and yes, holy crap, that will require some linebreeding!). Since the chihuahua has only been truly being developed as a breed for a little over 100 years, yes, you are going to see some changes. The longer, pencil-like legs that were so common made chihuahuas much more prone to injury. The more solid, preferred style of today allows for deeper patella grooves and sounder pasterns. The more rounded head and slightly shorter muzzle are NOT any more likely to cause health issues than the older head style, and in fact, you are more likely to have a good bite on a correct chihuahua head because generally some thought has been put into their breeding. 

Yes, some breeds have been changed for the worse, negative things have been done for the sake of breeding a dog that will win in the ring. But so far, chihuahuas have only improved to be sounder, healthier dogs OVERALL. If breeders are doing their job eventually there should be an improvement in the general pet population too. I feel just as good about producing a beautiful typey pet as I do a show dog...both are equally as important.


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## AussieLass (Mar 1, 2012)

OzChi said:


> The 1939 and 1950 Chi's in those pics look exactly like Chi's today. And apart from the ones obviously in show poses who says any of the rest are being held up to be close to what was the breed standard of the day or even purebred?


Head shapes look way different overall, to me at any rate.


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## Kurukulla (Sep 26, 2011)

3 of my 4 dogs are show dogs.. i wouldnt say any of them are exagerated in the head. Yes there are some with larger heads but they arent all over done.. none of mine have the pug look either. Some have shorter muzzles some dont. Its all down to the individual judges interpretation of the breed standard.

There is a lot more to a chihuahua than its head and not all judges will go for heads. Some go for movement and mouths, some for coat. 

With regards to PDE you cannot tarnish all show breeders with the same brush. yes some are horrific and no better than the puppy farmers BUT not them all. The programmed was produced to show the bad side, very little was shown of the good side. 

There are always people who will be anti breed standard but i ask you this. Why did you specifically get a Chihuahua???? The majority will answer because of its size, its temperement or its look. All of those are in the breed standard.. The breed standard is just a blue print of how the breed should be. It mentions the movement of a chihuahua.. a SOUND chihuahua will not have Luxating patellas. The temperement states not withdrawn or snappy. Eyes large round and not protruding.

Health IS taken into consideration its just what you make of it. 

We were at a Championship show at the weekend. None of the principal winners looked like pugs. Both the Best Bitch and Best Dog were different types but neither looked like pugs - both are UK Champions.


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## bella2013 (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm not bashing some show breeders because I was told Bella is pet quality. If you'll go back and re-read my post I have no problem with her being a pet quality dog. I wasn't expecting a high quality show dog or even a high quality breeding dog. I asked people what she was because I don't know pet quality from show/breeding quality. I'm not butthurt in the least that she's pet quality. Hence the reason why she's getting spayed and staying with me. And it's funny that someone should mention Tennessee Walking Horses. That's an area that's very familiar with me and in fact, the people that do put pads and chains on their show horses for the sake of a ribbon are damaging their horses either mentally or physically and possibly both. That's neither here nor there and is totally irrelevant to my original post. EVERY show ring whether it's dogs, cats, or horses will have fads that change the breed. For example, the TWH breed's first WGC was Midnight Sun and he didn't have pads and chains on. He didn't need them. But, he did travel in a big way, lifting his feet higher and striding deeper than a lot of the other horses. That's when pads and chains became about because people always wanted more. 

Undesirable traits that I'm talking about would be American show breeders of chi's for example. It was stated earlier on that the UK has pretty much bred out the molera. That's been said as a bad thing. Hence, breeding in undesirable traits. My point is, SOMEWHERE....maybe not always the USA or the UK (someone is breeding in undesirable traits). At least they would be undesirable due to one nation's breeding standard (which is only their opinion of what the breed should look like). Who is right? Who is correct? In my opinion the nation that would be correct are the ones breeding closest to the ORIGINAL dogs.


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## bella2013 (Aug 10, 2012)

I also feel I must put this out there. I'm keeping an open mind and will gladly listen to all perspectives. Hence why I'm NOT BASHING ALL SHOW BREEDERS. In fact, I'm not really "bashing" anyone at all. I'm just stating my opinion on things. Sure, they may change as I'm enlightened to some things. I'll be the first to admit I have a ton of learning to do, but unfortunately I don't particularly like the ways of some show breeders. So, I'm sorry to anyone that I may have offended with my opinion, but I'm honestly not butthurt or anything of the like because my girl Bella isn't show quality. I'm not in any way prepared for a show dog. I'm not in any financial situation right now to invest the money it takes to show a top quality dog. But, maybe sometime in the future I'd like to. Hence the open mind.


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## chi_lady (Oct 13, 2011)

bella2013 said:


> Undesirable traits that I'm talking about would be American show breeders of chi's for example. It was stated earlier on that the UK has pretty much bred out the molera. That's been said as a bad thing. Hence, breeding in undesirable traits. My point is, SOMEWHERE....maybe not always the USA or the UK (someone is breeding in undesirable traits). At least they would be undesirable due to one nation's breeding standard (which is only their opinion of what the breed should look like). Who is right? Who is correct? In my opinion the nation that would be correct are the ones breeding closest to the ORIGINAL dogs.


erm who said that the UK has breed out the molera? all my dogs have one, there is no where in the standard that says there shouldn't be one. 

and how much do you actually know about the original chihuahua to know about what health problems it had?

i see a lot more 'original style' (aka poorly breed) chihuahuas with health problems like slipping patellas and epilepsy ect also bad temperaments

im a little unsure what you mean about them looking like pugs too? i have never seen one with a flat/squashed muzzle


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## bella2013 (Aug 10, 2012)

flippedstars said:


> Also FWIW, the MOLERA is actually a naturally protective feature on a chihuahua. If they hit their head, it allows for some swelling without brain damage. Small dogs are quite likely to bonk their head from time to time. Without a molera, the pressure has no where to go and brain damage or death can occur. That is something Europe did not take into consideration when they eliminated the molera.
> 
> There is a member who isn't too active here anymore, that has a beautiful female chi named Emma. She had some head trauma, and without a molera to accomodate for the swelling that occured, she would have died. Instead, she recovered fully with no after effects.
> 
> ...


This is part of the post that it was stated that Europe has eliminated the molera. That's where I got that from. 





























Those are just a few that I've found that are extreme and are CH dogs.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

Are these the dogs you think look like pugs?


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

I've never seen a Chi that looked like a pug. I've seen some with short muzzles- but pugs don't have short muzzles. They have nearly non existent ones. And their face and bone structure is very different. 

The dogs that you posted have short muzzles. Is that less than ideal? Yes. Do they look like pugs because of it? No. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## bella2013 (Aug 10, 2012)

They are just a few of the ones that reminded me of a Pug. I didn't say that they looked just like Pugs, but resembled them. They are the more extremes but my point is that those looks are from winning dogs with CH titles.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Sorry, I should have been more clear, Europe = FCI registry. They have eliminated the molera. UK is in Europe but they have their own registry. 

And those dogs look nothing like pugs. Have you ever seen a pug?


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## chi_lady (Oct 13, 2011)

they look like well breed chihuahuas, some of the nices dog photos i have seen posted on this site in my opinion. i would be happy to own one of them lol 

this is my champion, he is as sound as a pound! not health issues at all and yes he has a morela were not FCI we have our own kennel club in the UK and a morela is allowed.


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## pupluv168 (Mar 7, 2012)

chi_lady said:


> they look like well breed chihuahuas, some of the nices dog photos i have seen posted on this site in my opinion. i would be happy to own one of them lol
> 
> this is my champion, he is as sound as a pound! not health issues at all and yes he has a morela were not FCI we have our own kennel club in the UK and a morela is allowed.


Your dog is stunning!!

I agree- I think the three pictures posted are nice, well bred Chis (at least as much as I can tell without seeing them in person). The third ones muzzle is a teeny bit to short for my personal preference, but without profile shots its hard to tell the actual muzzle lengths. 


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

I think Kristine is objecting to extremely short muzzles and protruding eyes. (Please correct me if I am wrong) I also dislike these traits, and I have seen dogs displaying them win. (There is one judge in particular that I know favours this type of Chi, I wouldn't show under this judge if I were showing Chis.)
However those pictures do not illustrate these faults.


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## Wicked Pixie (Oct 14, 2011)

What would be really useful would be be a thread illustrating outstanding/acceptable/poor features with pictures. Their was a post recently where Flippedstars (I think!) put up pics of one of her dogs to show that large round ayes are possible without being protruding. I know I would love to see more pics like that. This thread seems to be about a lack of understanding, and the only solution to that is education, which is something forums like these are great at.


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## 20887 (Mar 16, 2011)

Wicked Pixie said:


> What would be really useful would be be a thread illustrating outstanding/acceptable/poor features with pictures. Their was a post recently where Flippedstars (I think!) put up pics of one of her dogs to show that large round ayes are possible without being protruding. I know I would love to see more pics like that. This thread seems to be about a lack of understanding, and the only solution to that is education, which is something forums like these are great at.


What a great idea! I don't show but I am interested in doing it in the future. I would love to learn more.


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## bella2013 (Aug 10, 2012)

I am objecting to very small and flatter type of muzzles and protruding eyes. And yes, I have seen a Pug. A good friend of mine has one. I have never said these dogs look JUST LIKE Pugs. I've said that they remind me of Pugs. Completely different than saying they look exactly like Pugs.


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## Kurukulla (Sep 26, 2011)

I think the OP has made some very broad statements without any factual evidence to back them up really.

All my dogs have Moleras. None are exaggerated. The FcI made a change and the European breeders were not happy, mu understanding now is they are allowed a small one. The UK KC doesn't even mention a molera and we are not penalised for it. 

All my show dogs are of sound structure and temperament. Not exaggerated at all and in the UK judges have to sign that they will penalise any fault they see as exaggerated and detrimental to the soundness and welfare of the dog.


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## bella2013 (Aug 10, 2012)

Kurukulla said:


> I think the OP has made some very broad statements without any factual evidence to back them up really.
> 
> All my dogs have Moleras. None are exaggerated. The FcI made a change and the European breeders were not happy, mu understanding now is they are allowed a small one. The UK KC doesn't even mention a molera and we are not penalised for it.
> 
> All my show dogs are of sound structure and temperament. Not exaggerated at all and in the UK judges have to sign that they will penalise any fault they see as exaggerated and detrimental to the soundness and welfare of the dog.


Once again I never once said that ALL show breeders are bad or ALL show dogs are exaggerated. As for the molera deal, I've already pointed out where I got that moleras weren't allowed in Europe. I didn't say that, but someone else that's supposed to be knowledgeable about the breed did. So I'm happy to be enlightened on the subject that small ones are. And I'm glad that your dogs are sound and aren't exaggerated. Good job. At least you're not a bad apple.


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## Brodysmom (Jan 8, 2009)

There have been 'trends' in the show ring in the cat fancy as well. For example, the siamese cat. It used to be much less exaggerated than now. In fact, cat people have split into two different factions over it. Some prefer the old fashioned apple headed siamese. Some prefer the elongated wedge head siamese found in cat shows. Did the standard change over the years? I don't know. But it is interesting that these are both siamese cats.... but they look so different.

Traditional apple headed siamese - 










A top winning show siamese -










Similar deviations can be found within the hunting breeds. A springer spaniel or cocker spaniel that is winning dog shows here would not be found in the field with that heavy coat.

I don't think there have been the severe deviations in type over the years in the chihuahua that we have seen in the cats and the sporting breeds, or the german shepherd dog as the OP pointed out.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

The FCI (European) standard states this (taken STRAIGHT from the FCI website, today): 

DISQUALIFYING FAULTS :

· Aggressive or overly shy.

· Any dog clearly showing physical or behavioural abnormalities shall be disqualified

· Deer type dogs (dogs with an atypical or extremely stylized structure: refined head, long neck, slender body, long limbs).

*· Dogs with an open fontanel. (molera)*

· Drop ear or short ear.

· Deformed jaws.

· Extremely long body.

· Absence of tail.

· In the long- haired variety : Dogs with very long, fine and billowing coat.

· In the smooth-haired variety : Bald patch (alopecia).

· Merle colour.

· Subjects weighing less than 500 gr and more than 3 kg.

I have seen a few places where they have said a small molera will be allowed, but that is from the FCI website.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...f6Tshl_-w&sig2=hAZ9R6YUleqPCQo08LOsRg&cad=rja


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

I have seen that as of August 8th, 2012, apparently a change has been made on the FCI standard now only disqualifying "Dogs with a fontanel bigger than 0,2 inches." However, FCI has not updated their official standard on their website.


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## svdreamer (Feb 20, 2010)

Another dog that was modified tremendously was the Irish Setter. The trend was for narrower and narrower heads until they had a breed of dogs the were so dumb that couldn't find their way to the end of their leash, according to my vet. They so reduced the size of their heads. their brains were affected. They finally had to reverse the standard and allow for wider heads and penalize for the narrrow to help save the breed. My vet raised Irish setters but did not show because he prefered to have a dog that had the smarts it was supposed to have rather than ribbons.


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## Kurukulla (Sep 26, 2011)

flippedstars said:


> I have seen that as of August 8th, 2012, apparently a change has been made on the FCI standard now only disqualifying "Dogs with a fontanel bigger than 0,2 inches." However, FCI has not updated their official standard on their website.


Didnt realise it was that early. Just saw Francescos interpretation of the standard and it said 0.2. Only issue I have in that is in europe they show baby puppies and well majority all have moleras. Frankies is huge.


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## flippedstars (Dec 16, 2009)

Kurukulla said:


> Didnt realise it was that early. Just saw Francescos interpretation of the standard and it said 0.2. Only issue I have in that is in europe they show baby puppies and well majority all have moleras. Frankies is huge.


I am not sure what they do about that either, I guess some puppies do close over earlier?


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## Kurukulla (Sep 26, 2011)

flippedstars said:


> I am not sure what they do about that either, I guess some puppies do close over earlier?


I'll try remember to ask someone. I suppose it depends how fast the heads mature. Apparently they did a check on moleras at a breed club show a couple of years back and 30% of the adults had them or something.


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